#D1 Alex replay vs D2 Marisa help

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

crimson mortar
#

Gave this replay a watch and idk what I could've done to win, I feel like i am missing something obvious because jesus she fucking clobbered me

FMHP6TKJH

velvet bobcat
#

How do you usually play? It looked like you got very uncomfortable and couldn't run your style.
This marisa was rated appropriately and she wasn't doing anything particularly unique, but whenever she made a mistake you seemed to freeze up and not punish her.

Marisa is extremely slow so you can play space fairly well, she has weaker anti airs that all are situational and require a lot of energy to track, and very weak defense. She's also very weak to lows and has poor low pressure, so walking back or attacking her legs is strong.

You just got smacked and then never really got space. Even when she was -8 in your face you didn't punish her, and that made her look unassailable

crimson mortar
velvet bobcat
#

Superman punch is a jump in that is an airborn attack, you can anti air it

crimson mortar
#

it feels so fast

velvet bobcat
#

It is

crimson mortar
#

it's kinda scary

velvet bobcat
#

I think perfect parrying is a better choice

crimson mortar
velvet bobcat
#

Oh yeah, that's another thing Marisa struggles with
She has so many big predictable buttons that if your PP timing is good you can bully her

crimson mortar
#

977QAB9YP

for example here's still a loss vs a Blanka

velvet bobcat
#

Do you have a round you won?

crimson mortar
#

idk if you notice a big difference in play

crimson mortar
velvet bobcat
#

I'm curious what your offense looks like because it didn't exist in the Marisa game

crimson mortar
#

aahhh

#

ok gimme a sec

velvet bobcat
#

It's worth trying, it's a useful tool in general. Against Marisa specifically, some of her oki tools are even reactable with PP and they have very consistent timing

crimson mortar
#

FY9P9D8NL

#

my single win in this set

#

kinda embarassed at losing here

#

esp since they t-bagged me

velvet bobcat
#

Thast's why she's one of the worst characters at high level
At anything below that, she does crazy good damage and her buttons are very hard to deal with so most people can't execute the counter play

crimson mortar
#

and refining some oki timings

velvet bobcat
#

Probably more valuable

crimson mortar
#

but rn i still notice myself losing to not doing better AAs and counter DIs

velvet bobcat
#

Do you know your fastest button?

crimson mortar
#

2LP is 1f slower i think

#

and alex's 5MP is 7f i think?

velvet bobcat
#

Yeah, I noticed you pressing 2LP in a situation
It woudln't have worked with 5LP (you were late on the mash) but it was still the wrong choice

crimson mortar
#

wait where

velvet bobcat
#

I don't remember specifically, I think it was 6HK xx M superman punch

#

instantly pressing 5LP would interrupt but that's a high gamble because the proper route, Marisa would frame trap instead of leaving that gap

crimson mortar
#

yeah idk marisa in general scares me

velvet bobcat
#

H gladius frame traps, I think any other would keep it tight so you couldn't even super through it

crimson mortar
#

plus idk sometimes i lock up under pressure

velvet bobcat
#

been a minute since I played marisa though

crimson mortar
#

i also struggle with doing prowler stance in neutral

#

i'm too fucking predictable

velvet bobcat
#

I'm not an Alex player but from what I saw, 90% of your damage was getting lucky with a strong button on block into a 50/50 command grab (which was always command grab), or DI

#

That tells me you need new tools in neutral

#

Oh and poking with things that don't convert

#

I don't know what they should be (not an Alex player) but having a new tool that can convert into damage or oki would be very useful

crimson mortar
crimson mortar
#

other than that 5MP and 2MP come to mind

#

but those are not good pokes

velvet bobcat
#

But like a light string that leads to oki or trying to whiff punish something

crimson mortar
#

i can do jab jab jab H-DP

#

which then has some oki with drive rush

velvet bobcat
#

Why do you think it didn't come up ever?

crimson mortar
velvet bobcat
#

What about vs the Alex?

crimson mortar
#

since i lose the mirror more often than not

#

he bodied me in the other 2 matches

velvet bobcat
#

I think you should look at the replay and see where you were plus and try to get that combo out

#

It's not major, but it would at least prevent the uncontested offense Marisa ran and will help you practice the tools you already have

#

That will also build a good habit that can be your default when you're not sure what to do, which could reduce how much you freeze up

crimson mortar
#

i'll lyk how it goes

rustic flicker
# crimson mortar Gave this replay a watch and idk what I could've done to win, I feel like i am m...

She pushed you straight to the corner with fHK xx superman at the start of round 1. Which is fine, you only lost like 10% health off that. Bad position sure, but hardly unwinnable.

I won't pretend to be able to do it reliably, but you can beat fHK > superman punch by DPing it on reaction. You can also try to PP it, which is my personal go-to because I still can't reliably get a reaction DP out. You don't lose any drive if you mess up. It's a safe option against it AS LONG AS you confirm the animation is actually superman. Otherwise if you start flashing parry randomly you'll get command grabbed and explode.

You also kinda got knowledge checked because superman > dash leaves Marisa at an awkward +20. The only auto timed meaty option she had here was charged stHP. And so the second knee was fake, as she messed up the manual timing. You could have mashed. But that's kinda hard to just know/assume in a ft2 set that your opponent didn't lab that setup so I don't disagree with blocking per se. Just mentioning it for info.

#

I think the beginning of the end for this round comes right after when you try to jump out of a bHP

#

Sometimes you just gotta hold that and this is one of those cases

#

If she'd DRC'd you might have taken a throw. But she'd have left herself at only 1 bar.

#

Instead you not only missed an opportunity to fight your way out of the corner by punishing the blocked 214P, you got hit on the way up and lost even more health while still stuck in the corner

#

You lose the scramble that happens after by committing to an uncancelable poke that gets DI'd, pretty unfortunate

#

Probably shouldn't have done that though

crimson mortar
#

which pokes should I be using?

#

i am unsure now

rustic flicker
#

In that situation I'd have gone for crMP

crimson mortar
#

i use 5mk a lot

#

should I?

crimson mortar
#

that all felt like a blur to me while watching ot

#

it*

rustic flicker
#

This is all hindsight of course

#

But it's important to internalise this stuff

#

I just tried crMP and it gives you plenty of time to DI cancel

#

But a scramble is a scramlbe

crimson mortar
#

should I stop using 5mk/2mk as much?

rustic flicker
#

No, that was just one bad use of it

crimson mortar
#

aahhh okok

rustic flicker
#

It's not what lost you the round

crimson mortar
rustic flicker
#

It was random

crimson mortar
#

caught me offguard too

rustic flicker
#

It was a pure panic reaction where the risk of it was outweighed by the potential reward. You block, you get splatted. You don't counter-DI, you get PC'd. You had no super meter, so mashing super was not an option for you.

#

Did this Marisa think of all that? Hell no.

crimson mortar
#

so what did I do wrong vs her? was it a character MU thing?

rustic flicker
#

But it's the objective macro of the situation

#

No, I think Marisa vs Alex is Alex favored

#

What went wrong is that you got hit more than you hit her

#

Sounds stupid but that's really all there is to it

crimson mortar
#

hmm i see

rustic flicker
#

Prowler stance is incredibly strong in this matchup as it low profiles practically Marisa's entire kit

crimson mortar
#

should I have been more reckless or

crimson mortar
#

i kill myself with it

rustic flicker
#

Forgetting about Prowler, you just had no damage

crimson mortar
rustic flicker
#

Yeah, and she did

crimson mortar
#

should I lab the 4MK 2HP route?

rustic flicker
#

You absolutely should

crimson mortar
#

gotcha

rustic flicker
#

You didn't capitalise on the openings you got, there was a couple of blocked teep kicks that were punishable on block but you missed your punishes

crimson mortar
#

ill try that on par with AA drills

crimson mortar
rustic flicker
#

Quadriga

#

236K

crimson mortar
#

uuhh

#

idr on top of my head

rustic flicker
#

It's the big forward kick she does

#

You oughta just take this replay and really comb through it

#

Whenever you block something, look at the frame data

#

If it's punishable, see if you can reach it

crimson mortar
#

mhm gotcha

#

ill get in the lab for AAs and that combo

#

o7

rustic flicker
#

You missed this punish

#

There's like 3-4 routes you can go here that get you the life lead, oki and corner

#

You can go stLP stMP stHP for a meterless route, less damage but you get prowler oki. You can also route into prowler oki by replacing the lariat with prowler HK TC. Or you can cash out and route into super if you're in a situation where you think it will kill (this is not that).

#

You need to take your opportunities and capitalise

#

What happened here is you missed the punish and it allowed your opponent to stay out of the corner, stay on their feet and stay in the game. Running away with it in the end.

#

Stuff like this cascades immensely, it may seem like I'm harping on something tiny but I think it's not unfair to say this interaction lost you this match.

#

Anti-airs are super important, don't be me in 1400 MR with absolute 0 anti-air skills. But I think right now your priority should be entirely on actually dealing damage to your opponent. Offensive gameplay.

crimson mortar
#

my combos and punishing sense are bad 😭

crimson mortar
crimson mortar
rustic flicker
#

Yeah, for sure

rustic flicker
crimson mortar
#

ty 🙏

#

i'll focus on those 2

rustic flicker
crimson mortar
#

mental stack and whatnot yk

crimson mortar
#

i got stomped by a marisa again

#

😭

velvet bobcat
#

Did you press when it was your turn?

#

Or start pressing at all?

#

Either one is an improvement, winning/losing isn't the important part

crimson mortar
#

she was spamming stance

velvet bobcat
#

So she was punishing you for pressing?

#

That's still fine, building the new habit was the good thing

crimson mortar
#

bro

#

fucking character

#

i try to low she crushes them

#

i try to run my offense she does stance

#

i try to jumpin she does stance

#

fuck right off

#

she is bullshit

velvet bobcat
#

Like I said, her basic low level plan is very potent

#

It hits hard and is easy to execute for the most part

crimson mortar
#

they all look like

#

they are spamming shit

#

with no logic

#

and getting rewarded for it

velvet bobcat
#

It's really good tbh

#

Gladius is +4 and chunks your drive gauge

#

and breaks DI

#

and does like 2500 damage if you get hit

#

That's the logic

crimson mortar
#

that wasn't the main issue

#

idc about gladius

velvet bobcat
#

All her moves are like that

#

5HK is extremely hard to whiff punish but gives like 4k damage major corner carry combo

crimson mortar
#

stance is by far the worst

velvet bobcat
#

Throw her?

#

Offensive stance or defensive stance?

crimson mortar
#

which is which

velvet bobcat
#

The way she's using it

#

Because offensive stance is basically just command grab dispenser

#

the high/lows aren't that good

#

Defensive, to deny your buttons, is pretty good

#

but also doesn't get that much

#

just a scramble situation

crimson mortar
crimson mortar
#

and i lost the scrambles

velvet bobcat
#

Overhead/low are rough because if she gets it wrong, she's -21 or -24 in your face

#

And her reward isn't nearly as good

#

Go open up the replay, see what she was doing

#

was she OD or regular stance?

#

And how did she threaten you with it? Could you just walk back?

crimson mortar
velvet bobcat
#

What did she do before using it? What was the spacing?

crimson mortar
#

idk when I managed to get my offense on

#

she was easy but she spammed that

#

so i couldn't

#

oh wow on her low out of stance

#

i can get 5HK

velvet bobcat
#

If she's denying your pressure, start throwing her more

#

it's a punish counter throw and costs her 3 bars of drive

#

2 for the OD move and 1 for the punish counter throw

crimson mortar
velvet bobcat
#

Oh yeah

#

It also doesn't work correctly against jump ins plenty

#

If you're crossing her up, there's a good chance it'll attack the wrong direction and you can punish her for it

#

All of her OD reversals lose to grabs

#

SA1 can counter grabs and SA2/3 are both full invuln so they obviously beat grabs

crimson mortar
velvet bobcat
#

Yeah it's a specific spacing

crimson mortar
#

anyway I got the 2mp drc 4mk 2hp stance jab lariat 5lk h-dp combo once or twice today

#

and switched my approach with stance

#

so positive day

#

now to learn the marisa mu more ig

velvet bobcat
#

Oh something else to know about Marisa
Her "upper body armor" on her moves doesn't mean "breaks to lows"
It loses to moves that have lower hitboxes. That includes plenty that can be blocked standing (crLPs and stLKs are fairly common), and even some overheads
I don't know which of Alex's normals are like that, you'd have to test, but you can probably beat gladius with a cancellable normal that lets you convert into some good damage rather than just a low poke

rustic flicker
#

CrLK is good for that

velvet bobcat
#

It's not the most important thing to know, stuff like taking your turn back is way more usable in all matchups, but it is neat

rustic flicker
#

crLK>HK TC gives you strong oki, and has surprisingly good range for a light

#

crLK is really good at blowing up her offense, delayed crLK when you expect a Gladius (practice this timing!) will see you block uncharged and interrupt charged. Easy enough to confirm that into a TC

rustic flicker
#

I don't remember if I said it in this thread, so I'll re-iterate: Alex is a lab monster's dream character

#

You gotta love labbing if you wanna play this guy, figuring shit out

#

Having said that, here's what this lab sesh brought forth

#

crLK > HK grants you some pretty good oki whether you Prowler cancel it or not, though I think in this matchup specifically the Prowler option is considerably weaker due to Marisa not having a DP reversal.

#

Prowler oki is gonna be framekill jab into throw, or straight into medium elbow for a +2 on block setup in throw range

#

Both hop and charged lariat are an option, but again as Marisa has no EX DP these becomes less valuable, since you'll only be avoiding supers with hop and charged lariat just loses against all of her wakeup options except buttons that aren't lights.

#

Standard oki is also a framekill jab, but this time you're +6 so you can choose between medium powerbomb and bMK

#

You can also DR into bMK/medium bomb if you don't trust the jab framekill. This is auto-timed for the low cost of 1 drive bar.

rustic flicker
#

As for dealing with EX Scutum, it's a frame 1 armored reversal that puts you in a 50/50 if you get caught by it. But in the end it's basically a fancy parry. Loses to throw just like parry does. Solution: Represent more throws on oki.

#

And of course all of the crLK talk above is bullshit because I just remembered a far better option for dealing with Gladius pressure

#

bMK will take her legs right out from under her, leaving you +7 and giving the opportunity for considerably more damage in the process and much easier to execute oki by linking stMP