VGC Rates

[jovial creek]

Where did you find that team

It looks like a team from Japanese nats or some bo1

[rich elk]

random yt video

[jovial creek]

Oh

[rich elk]

idk i was just looking up teams for vgc 2025 just to see what was up

[jovial creek]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vgc-regulation-i-sample-teams.3766729/

Use one of these

I can help explain any

[rich elk]

aight im in class rn but ill check it out thanks

[drifting onyx]

VGC25 Regulation I (Gen 9)

• Metagame Discussion Thread
• Viability Rankings
• Sample Teams
• Role Compendium
• VGCPastes Repository
• Discord
• Pokémon Showdown! Room

Overview

For more info, see this format's Dex page.

[broken shuttle]

you can also check out the VR & VGCPastes repository for an overview of the metagame/more teams

[rich elk]

thanks

[misty tapir]

https://pokepast.es/db793e598d72d26a

I'm trying to learn vgc myself

[jovial creek]

Go choice Scarf Annihilape

Tera fairy mirai

And something else over indeedee

[misty tapir]

Didn't realize it wasn't Scarf Ape

I wonder who I could use instead of indeedee

[jovial creek]

Why did you have it before

[misty tapir]

Another Ape and Ice Rider team had it

[jovial creek]

did it have a miraidon too?

[misty tapir]

Yeah

[misty tapir]

https://pokepast.es/a162e90ec364b3df it was this team

[jovial creek]

that is a team of all time

[misty tapir]

I couldn't find any videos of it though

[jovial creek]

you could go farig over indeedee

it has the same kinda role of blocking prio'

but you don't block your miraidon's terrain

[misty tapir]

Okay

[broken shuttle]

EVs on this aren't optimal at all

https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/formats/vgc25-regulation-i/

this is a good directory for the smogon dex sets that are fairly optimized

goggles incineroar is not necessary here at all since you have miraidon, go rocky helmet

also go tera fairy on miraidon for boosted dgleams & counterplay into the mirror

go tera grass ape with max HP & max speed jolly scarf

[broken shuttle]

do this also !

[tiny cairn]

https://pokepast.es/e8c1625d8e054d36 halp

just realized i forgot hp ev on sneasler but u get it

[broken shuttle]

i think this kind of structure is a little too passive for a zacian/miraidon build

you would much rather sneasler be an urshifu, and zacian + miraidon definitely needs tailwind

[tiny cairn]

alr

that makes sense

[broken shuttle]

https://pokepast.es/aeb9c91319feda29

something like this for example

[tiny cairn]

this is the last team i built so lmk if i should just scrap and use this https://pokepast.es/dbd16ca3d72c820c

[broken shuttle]

i think both smeargle and clefairy is a little much

you really only need one

[tiny cairn]

it's SO funny though

the double follow me plays a secondary role imo, i'm using clef for friend guard

and smeargle is just fun to use

[broken shuttle]

either way

plot caly

here

always

you have double redirect, take full advantage

[tiny cairn]

okay okay

that makes sense

[broken shuttle]

i would also suggest probably tera grass clef

& go adamant rilla here

[tiny cairn]

wouldn't that be bad to maintain the poison weakness though

[broken shuttle]

poison is not a relevant offensive typing really

[tiny cairn]

okay

[broken shuttle]

also nothing would rly be clicking a poison type move that isn't goobed by csr

[tiny cairn]

that's true

goobed is a good word

should i switch to a more defensive spread on csr

or keep the frail build cuz of follow me and wide guard

[broken shuttle]

you can do either

either way keep it max speed

mirror is too important

[misty tapir]

https://pokepast.es/032f95034fb34bc4

[broken shuttle]

looks good, only note is close combat>drain punch on ape

[reef bough]

https://pokepast.es/25a1dcc08f4b66b7

Gallade over Iron Valiant, idrk for the +100 bst!

[misty tapir]

Alright

I wonder what strageties I can use with this team because I'm still learning

[ripe turret]

imma be so fr this looks like a cts cheese team

[misty tapir]

https://pokepast.es/1d7ddb26c37e438d

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[ripe turret]

looks good

I would go leech seed over high horsepower on calyrex-i

but other than that I don't have anything

[broken shuttle]

you can keep hhp here, just depends on which you feel like you need

if you do go hhp swap to clear amulet

[misty tapir]

Alright

[tiny cairn]

https://pokepast.es/0c934bc4fed30ba4

[silk lodge]

trying a double coaching team lately
but it feels like i could drop torkoal
https://pokepast.es/8058523f41e27dba

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[silk lodge]

...to be fair i do use torkoal a lot more than incineroar for this team

actually nah this is technically a sun team

[vivid shard]

https://pokepast.es/2f1c8e62502e522a

This is my dog only team its prolly not good but i just wanna see what you guys think of it

[vivid shard]

So unrelated to the dog only team, ik you run 2 restricteds so what about the other roles how much of each do i use (speed control, offensive, defensive, ect....)

[misty tapir]

I have a bad match up against Calyrex-Shadow teams

[ripe turret]

you can consider AV incin here if you’re worried about csr (which I think your team’s matchup is fine as it is, but that’s just my opinion)

[misty tapir]

What's an AV Incin build?

[timid current]

assault vest incin

might wanna run tera bug on it too to resist the zama that'll likely be with the csr

[ripe turret]

Incineroar @ Assault Vest
Level: 50
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 228 HP / 4 Atk / 100 Def / 124 SpD / 52 Spe
Tera Type: Bug
Impish Nature

• Flare Blitz
• Knock Off
• Fake Out
• U-turn

Here’s the set in case you’re curious

[vivid shard]

Im a beginner any team building tips (i wanna make my own team)

[trail agate]

You know what restricteds you want to use?

[glacial lotus]

https://pokepast.es/5f2fcf41dc4542a8

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[glacial lotus]

What could i change to make this better?

[vivid shard]

No

[vivid shard]

It looks alright i think (idk tho) maybe do some play testing and see how it does

[sleek laurel]

It looks alright, maybe do some play testing and see how it does

(Irony aside it does look fine, you can consider Tera Ghost on Caly to boost Astral while Sash provides you protection and maybe Encore on Whimsicott because the move is giga broken but both are optional)

(Same with the standard Light Screen > Fake Tears but I do really like Fake Tears on this team)

[sleek laurel]

Though in hindsight

How often do you find yourself bringing Whimsicott at all?

This team looks really bulky bar CSR which is Sash and obscenely fast and Calm Mind Terapagos doesn't really need Tailwind since it needs like 2 or 3 boosts to get seriously rolling

You can replace it with a Rillaboom or something like a Cornerstone Ogerpon if you think the Fake Out - U-Turn is redundant with Incin + Hands

Or even like a Grimmsnarl to offer more damage reduction while Pagos sets up

The Whimsi could stay to support CSR and offer Fake Tears (definitely don't replace this move if you're keeping it btw, not on this team) but I'd personally evaluate how much do you bring it

But the team looks really good in the grand scope, no changes are mandatory anyway LOL

[reef bough]

Oh is that bad

[ripe turret]

it’s kinda just gallade and bonnet tbh, nobody is gonna be expecting scarf bonnet or full support gallade lol, sash indeedee is also weird

[ripe turret]

you should decide on what kind of restricted core you want to use for your team first

I can give you some common pairings

calyrex-s zama, calyrex-i mirai, kyogre zac, mirai lunala, korai lunala, korai calyrex-s, and kyogre calyrex-i are all common pairings

[vivid shard]

Ooh i like kyogre and i like sword dog

[ripe turret]

sure then you can use that

I can help you with building a team later once I have time

[vivid shard]

Sure tysm : D

[faint notch]

here is my completely original team with pokemon that are rarely used by anyone else and idk what to use as my 6th pokemon (VGC Reg I) https://pokepast.es/f4d5947ffd024413

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[trail agate]

Respect the originality 😉

[thorny aurora]

https://pokepast.es/a4cecf921f78a932

[sleek laurel]

Don't run Indeedee + Exp Force Lunala with Miraidon

You rely on two different Terrains for either of your Restricteds to function, I would recommend just using support Lunala with Trick Room + Ursaluna there

Admittedly, you're probably better using the FedeCampo 6 here

I understand what you went for but the innovations are a bit too conflicting to be viable, unfortunately

[sleek laurel]

Good stuff, not much to be changed idt

[glacial lotus]

Alot

Fake tears for a free ko is just so good

Plus tailwind is rlly strong for caly

[sleek laurel]

Yea I figured if you'd want Whimsi here it's for Caly on the Tailwind mirror and Fake Tears support

If that's doing well for you then admittedly the team looks fine

[glacial lotus]

YES

FINALLY

I MADE A GOOD TEAM

[sleek laurel]

Lmfao

I had the same reaction my first time too

One step closer to getting goated 🔥

[glacial lotus]

Now i just need to know how to play better

Ty bro

[sleek laurel]

Np lol (sorry I dipped)

[lone mantle]

https://pokepast.es/0ce4170da91dac79

there are some evs and tera type i havent consider yet

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[sleek laurel]

Miraidon set needs a bit of polishing, Tera Ghost on Iron Bundle, Ursaluna > Conkeldurr (it's just objectively better as a Trick Room sweeper and pairs very well with Lunala), and Iron Moth is both not good and this set wouldn't work

also yea some EVs need a bit of polishing

I can optimize this team for you if you want

[lone mantle]

Sure

but i really wanna deal with the opposing ursaluna

So i use conkeldurr

[sleek laurel]

Which doesn't work, and you have better counterplay in the form of Incineroar's Intimidate and Lunala tho

[lone mantle]

U r right

[sleek laurel]

https://pokepast.es/81f6a7d7b5b11e69

[lone mantle]

Ty

Is there any specific reason for the speed investment in urshifu?

[sleek laurel]

I dunno, iirc this is the original spread

You can adapt that tho

[lone mantle]

Lmao ok

[sleek laurel]

Lol

[noble knot]

https://pokepast.es/a965001b88aa07f0
I have no idea if this is good at all but id love some advice

[trail agate]

It really does confuse me. I mean... it's a popular spread and so can maybe find a team report or something on YouTube that maybe has some info, but yeah, I don't super get how to use Choice Band Urshifu

[sleek laurel]

Same in terms of spread

I do get how to use Choice Band Urshifu

But I have yet to understand

What are the benchmarks for the spread

[reef bough]

The element of surprise must I say

[vivid shard]

Whats a good tailwind setter thats not Whimsicott

[red lodge]

tornadus

can any1 suggest any changes to this team: https://pokepast.es/d5a22e92b6ad4461 I feel like I'm not using terapagos as much. Is there any other restricted that is good in trick room? I don't want to use lunala cuz i alr got 2 psychic types. I also think this team is rlly weak to fake out, but i don't really want to use farig or indeedee cuz i need an answer to zamazenta, which armarouge counters, and can also learn trick room

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[timid current]

https://pokepast.es/6b8c277772641b7a

i dont like this team but cant think of a reason why

[red lodge]

explanding force with grassy terrain?

[timid current]

yeah just if theyre running psychic terrain

but psychic could be better

[red lodge]

it might be too situational

yeah

[timid current]

also might swap nasty plot for like encore or disable

[red lodge]

nastry plot could be good with ogeron follow me

[timid current]

yeah thats what i maily use it with

that or baiting a protect with rilla fake out

[red lodge]

ok

[vivid shard]

Nvm i figured it our and what yall think of team https://pokepast.es/cf73d4a706427a51

[sleek laurel]

Great start, but a few things are worth noting:

[vivid shard]

Ye?

[sage jasper]

https://pokepast.es/693b0b825eadd278

not sure about urshify

i got to master ball

ive barely used him to be honest

[sleek laurel]

• Kyogre cannot run Water Spout as its only Water-type move, and Life Orb is suboptimal, especially since it weakens Spout and messes up your longevity, which is Kyogre's other selling point. Calm Mind is also not in the best spot, and if you were to use it, it would require a complete team overhaul. Run Mystic Water > Life Orb and Origin Pulse > Calm Mind (also EV spread changes).

• Zacian-C is almost perfect, but Protect > Helping Hand, and optionally (but ideally) Swords Dance > Sacred Sword to allow you to negate Incineroar's Intimidate, which is devastating with the Intrepid Sword nerf (also EV spread changes).

• Consider Will-O-Wisp over Flare Blitz on Incineroar, this is Rain (also EV spread changes).

• Iron Hands seems perfectly usable, but I would recommend 0 Speed IVs + a Brave nature. It's mainly there as your Trick Room answer, it's too slow to make use of Tailwind regardless with 4 Speed IVs, and losing the tie to Ursaluna under TR can be devastating.

• Moonblast > Giga Drain and Light Screen > Trick Room on Whimsicott. You don't want Trick Room on this team, Iron Hands is there as a Trick Room check (and even then you should try to not let it get up), and Whimsicott does not set Priority Trick Room anyway because the move has a whopping -7 Priority, thus Whimsi only makes it -6 (also EV spread changes, and Tera Dark > Grass to block opposing Prankster stuff if ever necessary).

• Replace Ursaluna-B with a Landorus-I, I particularly like Life Orb + Bulky here (Sheer Force negates Life Orb recoil anyway).

https://pokepast.es/073e34fef803e335
Try this, it has all the changes implemented!

[vivid shard]

Thanks

The idea with trickroom was to set it up so their trick room would remove it

[sleek laurel]

Yeah I figured, but it's really hard to execute

[vivid shard]

Ok thanks again

[sleek laurel]

Np!

[sleek laurel]

Punching Glove Urshifu is terrible because it negates Unseen Fist

[sage jasper]

wait

does it?

[sleek laurel]

Lemme give this a more thorough look in 10 minutes

It does

[sage jasper]

sure

i had no idea

[sleek laurel]

Because I gotta eat rq lol

Nah dw LMAO

[sleek laurel]

But I'll give a big rate when I'm back

Good Lord I can't type

[sage jasper]

its all good take your time

[sleek laurel]

Ty

[vivid shard]

I do have 1 question tho, why tera poison on Landorous?

[sleek laurel]

To OHKO Tera Fairy Miraidon with Sludge Bomb

You need the STAB for that

But Tera Water is also fine if you want the defensive properties against Urshifu-R

Because you're setting up Rain

don't run Steel

[vivid shard]

Ohh okay thx cya

[sleek laurel]

Np and cya

[misty tapir]

https://pokepast.es/d1f119d63b6a9d59 How can I beat Groudon and Lunala teams with this team?

[tall trail]

https://pokepast.es/2ce83ec7d7a6c856
I'm making a new team so I wanted to get some notes. I'm mostly needing help with stats but if you feel there are changes that need to be made to the pokemon. I'm open to those as well

[tight adder]

https://pokepast.es/09f3d7d8f5d03f8e any ideas on what to do?

[vivid shard]

(Idk this that well so take this with a grain of salt) i think its good but why not more defense on zama cus body press uses defense for damage

[misty tapir]

https://pokepast.es/e839317e39a8d97e

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[sleek laurel]

What happened while I was at my friends'

LOL

5 rates pending at half past midnight 😭 lemme do this rq

[sleek laurel]

• Tera Fairy Miraidon, and slot the last 4 EVs somewhere ig

• Protect > Iron Defense on Zamazenta (it seems a little weird to run two protection moves sometimes but you kind of absolutely need it) and change the EV spread (100 HP / 4 Atk / 236+ Def / 4 SpD / 164 Spe)

• Bulkier Tornadus (212 HP / 188 Def / 4 SpA / 12 SpD / 92+ Spe)

• Flutter Mane is out of place here, it's far better on Koraidon or Groudon teams with Focus Sash and this set is also suboptimal; since the Focus Sash slot is free, Chien-Pao is a great fit here instead for good coverage with both Miraidon and Zamazenta + boosting Zamazenta's damage (no, Sword of Ruin does not weaken Body Press, it only affects the defensive end of calculations, its weird and complicated but it's how it works)
  Max Max with Sash, Tera Ghost, Icicle Crash / Sucker Punch / Crunch / Protect, and specifically 4 Defense as the last four EVs to guarantee survival of all non item-boosted or Tera-boosted Surging Strikes from Urshifu-R

• Choice Scarf Urshifu with U-Turn over Protect, Tera Water, 4 HP / 236+ Atk / 4 Def / 12 SpD / 252 Spe

• Knock Off > Protect on Incineroar, the only reason Wolfe ran Protect on Incineroar was to help stall out three turns with the Perish Song core he was using; also, 244 HP / 4 Atk / 188+ Def / 68 SpD / 4 Spe

Bruh

I clicked enter too early

There, edited LOL

Sorry for being so late btw, I'm travelling tomorrow and was at my friend's the entire day LOL

[sleek laurel]

Nothing wrong with this team, again Flutter outside of Sun is niche but it's actually p good here I'd bet

What are you struggling with in the mu?

[sleek laurel]

Team is good mons wise, as for stats:

Chien-Pao: 4 Def > 4 SpD (survives unboosted Surging Strikes from all Urshifu, yes that actually makes a difference)

Amoonguss: 236 HP / 236+ Def / 36 SpD, survives all spread Glacial Lance and all Chien-Pao's Icicle Crash. Also run 27 Speed IVs instead of 31 to underspeed all Calyrex-I in Trick Room and click Spore.

Annihilape: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252+ Spe, Final Gambit is the priority

Kyogre: 252 HP / 52 Def / 156+ SpA / 4 SpD / 44 Spe (survives -1 Wood Hammer from Rilla and two Life Orb Astrals from CSR)

Roaring Moon: 244 HP / 76 Atk / 44 Def / 20 SpD / 124 Spe (survives 2 Astrals from CSR, 2 Heat Waves from Chi-Yu, and a Tera Water Surging Strikes from Ursh-R even after Tera Flying)

Zamazenta-C: 100 HP / 4 Atk / 236+ Def / 4 SpD / 164 Spe (hits the highest Defense Nature bump, Speed for Landorus, 4/4 and rest is HP, also survives Life Orb Close Combat from Koraidon)

[sleek laurel]

Tera Water Amoonguss, 236 HP / 236+ Def (Bold) / 36 SpD with 27 Speed IVs, otherwise its the same as the other team so lmao!

[sleek laurel]

Needs a bit of an overhaul, mons-wise it's Flutter Mane and Raging Bolt > Whimsicott and (either Amoonguss or Rillaboom). Personally recommend keeping Amoonguss as otherwise Trick Room becomes devastating.

https://pokepast.es/f1224a051ab22ad3
This team has all changes implemented at once: Clear Amulet Koraidon is forced due to Focus Sash being taken by Flutter Mane (by force) and Life Orb CSR + Clear Amulet Koraidon just being more valuable than Life Orb Koraidon + Spell Tag CSR in general. The Koraidon spread is optimized for Clear Amulet, but Max Max with Jolly is still 100% fine if you find that losing Speed ties to other bikes is too concerning.

Ok now I absolutely go sleep

[fading atlas]

https://pokepast.es/d13038a11de5d0e6 tera water instead tera fairy on lunala works? makes matchups against kyogres + cir or zacian easier

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[sleek laurel]

It works for the Meteor Beam set

For this one it's a little iffy because losing out on the Moonblast boost is really bad

But you can try

[wooden terrace]

https://pokepast.es/ca1edeca4a3a87d6 I have been creating a team and i would like to get some notes before training the team in game, I'm open to change suggestions.

[tight adder]

holy thank you so much

[sage jasper]

thanks for the advice

no worries on taking long, the help you gave me was well worth the wait

[sleek laurel]

Np chat, glad to hear that from both!

[sleek laurel]

Btw, one option, albeit rather niche, is to use Coaching > Aqua Jet on Urshifu

Mainly because it's already Scarfed and Coaching helps boost its synergy with Zamazenta

It's very minor tho and changes close to nothing

But I personally find it more oftentimes useful than Aqua Jet, especially on a team with Chien-Pao and with Scarf lol

Urshifu in general in a Zamazenta team is sometimes a bit of a weak-link, you could see about replacing it, but it's amazing with Specs Miraidon so there's that

I do have a flight in 20 minutes (already on the plane) so I will lose connection shortly

But its a 60 minute flight anyway

[sage jasper]

ill take a look at it

appreciate it

[red lodge]

can any1 suggest any changes to this team: https://pokepast.es/d5a22e92b6ad4461 I feel like I'm not using terapagos as much. Is there any other restricted that is good in trick room? I don't want to use lunala cuz i alr got 2 psychic types. I also think this team is rlly weak to fake out, but i don't really want to use farig or indeedee cuz i need an answer to zamazenta, which armarouge counters, and can also learn trick room

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[sleek laurel]

I don't think there are any other viable HardRoom restricteds beyond Lunala/NDW and Pagos, and even then Lunala/NDW are far better than Pagos

You're fine running Lunala/NDW btw, and even Indeedee

HardRoom by nature is a PsySpam style, Calyrex-I doesn't count as a Psychic-type anyway

And the defensive elements are not a worry because HardRoom is by nature extremely Hyper Offense

Replace Bloodmoon with Indeedee-F and Terapagos with Lunala or NDW

It's really the main (and only) viable core of HardRoom in Regulation I, even if it may seem counterintuitive

[lyric void]

https://pokepast.es/a0ffe92644f4ca6e

[sleek laurel]

are you new to the metagame?

this feels like an attempt at building a bulkier team, but most of the sets are unoptimal, and standard stall is extremely hard to properly make work in VGC (if not impossible, VGC stall is still rather offensive)

I like that you got well the idea of "offensive stall", since this team actually has offensive presence, but the specifics aren't too good (Choice Band Ting-Lu is not real, that's the most glaring example, and Overqwil is generally just worse than Glimmora for these teams, plus most EV spreads aren't great unfortunately, amidst some more stuff)

(sorry, had to write something for class)

I can hand you a more tried-and-true Toxic Spikes team if you want, though!

[sleek laurel]

bruh i'm sorry, i skipped through yours LOL

i didn't see this until now, that's what happens when you have 10 rmts in 24 hours 💀

anyway

• Calyrex-S needs an EV spread change, it pretty much needs 252 Speed Timid simply to Speed tie other Calyrex-S (otherwise the mirror is like nigh unplayable, even if you shouldn't ever rely on that), and 44 SpA is just too weak. I would recommend the SmogDex spread - 108 HP / 44 Def / 100 SpA / 4 SpD / 252+ Spe

• Zamazenta needs Speed, and two Steel-type moves is not worth it - replace one with Protect (either one is fine). As for the spread, I recommend 100 HP / 4 Atk / 236+ Def / 4 SpD / 164 Spe; outspeeds Landorus-I, hits the maximum Defense nature bump while also nearly maximizing it, 4/4 and the rest is HP, which also lets you survive Life Orb Close Combat from Koraidon.

• Fake Out > High Horsepower on Rillaboom. Wood Hammer is also an option if you want more power, but Drum Beating is fine too. Also an EV spread change - 244 HP / 36+ Atk / 4 Def / 220 SpD / 4 Spe is standard to survive Helping Hand Draco Meteor from (Timid) Choice Specs Miraidon (in Grassy Terrain), but you can also consider some more Attack (116+ if you do) if this calc is not particularly concerning or practical.

• Incineroar is fine, I have never particularly liked 252 Speed Jolly Incineroar but it's viable, that's for sure.

• I would change Urshifu-R to a Choice Scarf or Focus Sash set - preferably Focus Sash, since it's nowhere on the team, and the only counterplay to Choice Scarf Miraidon at the moment is Rillaboom's Terrain or else you lose (Amoonguss still loses very hard to getting Volt Switched on while being completely shut down beyond Rage Powder botting). Tera Water (or Stellar, but Water is probably better since you have a Zamazenta-C for Terapagos anyway), Max Max with Adamant, and Detect or Protect > U-Turn.

• Amoonguss is ALMOST perfect, but you need 27 Speed IVs instead of 31, which allows you to underspeed all Calyrex-I and therefore Spore them in Trick Room before getting Glacial Lance'd on, while already naturally threatening them outside of Trick Room.

ah yes, the 1994 character message.

[ornate cloak]

https://pokepast.es/0edbfbba27caaec7

Is tera grass Zamazenta-Crowned more optimal here?

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[sleek laurel]

Probably preference

[ornate cloak]

Tera grass gives me more resistences

But idk I'm conflicted

[sleek laurel]

Water makes you vulnerable to Miraidon, Grass makes you vulnerable to Koraidon

But admittedly

[ornate cloak]

Miraidon is more common tbf

So there's that

[sleek laurel]

It is

[ornate cloak]

And I've got tools to deal with Koraidon

Between Tornadus, csr, and rbolt, and potentially Incin

[sleek laurel]

The thing is Grass doesnt help against it as much as people make it seem like it does, but Water is particularly bad against it because Electro Drift shreds you even in Grassy Terrain

Also

[ornate cloak]

Yh

[sleek laurel]

Grass has the benefit of not getting Amoonguss'd

Which is a real issue for this team beyond CSR's Psychic

Ig Rilla doesnt care about it but like

It doesn't do anything back and gets 1v1d in the long run

Torn is not a real check

Ok well you do have Safety Goggles Incin

Hm

[ornate cloak]

Incin has flare blitz

[sleek laurel]

Ok yea I blanked on the Incin moveslot there for a moment

But even then

The extra insurance on Zama in particular is nice and Water doesn't do you much

[ornate cloak]

All that combined, I think grass has better value here

[sleek laurel]

Water's benefit is just yea

Walling Koraidon

[ornate cloak]

Tbf

[sleek laurel]

And ig not being weak to CIR

[ornate cloak]

Don't Koraidon teams usually run Raging Bolt anyway?

[sleek laurel]

They do

[ornate cloak]

Tbf wide guard blocks Glance

[sleek laurel]

Beware of Clamulet CIR btw

But like

[ornate cloak]

True but

[sleek laurel]

On the CIR MU

Just don't Tera the Zamazenta

LOL

[ornate cloak]

True lmfao

[sleek laurel]

Yea I deffo don't like Water here as much

You can do Grass or Dragon

[ornate cloak]

Ye I was having second thoughts abt water myself so I thought it'd be best to ask

[sleek laurel]

Grass feels better here too because it gives you Amoonguss insurance and while Koraidon remains a threat

[ornate cloak]

Honestly

[sleek laurel]

It's less of a threat

[ornate cloak]

I got tools to deal with Koraidon

[sleek laurel]

BC of that yea

[ornate cloak]

Csr, Torn, Rbolt

[sleek laurel]

And Grass is also better than Dragon against Miraidon with Grassy Terrain support

[ornate cloak]

Speaking of Rbolt, would it be better to go tfairy here or remain telectric

[sleek laurel]

Draco Meteor in Electric Terrain OHKOs both Teras

[ornate cloak]

Yh

[sleek laurel]

But Grass can live a Draco without Hadron

[ornate cloak]

Ye pretty much

[ornate cloak]

What are your thoughts on this?

[sleek laurel]

Electric

Fairy is like

An AV Tera

[ornate cloak]

Fair enough

[sleek laurel]

Also

You can consider Magnet or Booster too

[ornate cloak]

I considered booster

But I decided lorb because I do have Rillaboom

[sleek laurel]

But you have a Rilla yea

Lmao handshake

[ornate cloak]

Yessir

Overall, is the team good?

[sleek laurel]

I like Nasty Plot a lot on the CSR here

Usually you run Encore or Disable on Sash but this team doesnt depend on either

[ornate cloak]

+2 tghost barrages hit way too hard

[sleek laurel]

Yea this is good and you made the right calls

[ornate cloak]

Tysm

[sleek laurel]

O wait, one last thing

[ornate cloak]

?

[sleek laurel]

Tera Bug on Incin is a consideration to take on Zamazenta-C

[solar oracle]

Hello people, this is my first ever competitive team I have built for Reg I. Can you give me any tips or feedback on team please

https://pokepast.es/a21850e44bd4be8c

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[ornate cloak]

Oh yh true

[sleek laurel]

Your only supereffective attack against Zamazenta-C is your own Body Press which is YIPPEE

Ill get to you asap butter

[sleek laurel]

But overall this is

Probably the best team I've rated

[ornate cloak]

Yh I'll change that to bug

[sleek laurel]

You got the uniquenesses right too

Ait gl goat

[ornate cloak]

Tysm, really appreciate it

[sleek laurel]

Np

[ornate cloak]

I'll continue testing

[sleek laurel]

I'm figuring you're new to the metagame? This team only has one Restricted Pokémon, while the current regulation allows two

[solar oracle]

Yeah I know that but idk what other restricted to put

I was thinking Miraidon or Zamazenta

[sleek laurel]

Most of the support Pokémon are a little suboptimal, even if the sets are good tho

This feels like a mix of an attempt of a Trick Room team with Snow

I like Miraidon here, especially since you need an Iron Hands

I mean

You have one

ADHD strike number 1 million

[solar oracle]

I wanted to build a snow team initially

[sleek laurel]

If you want a hard Snow team

@modest dune is your best friend

well its not like HARD Snow but a Snow core

Do note that Snow is a bit of a niche archetype/hard to properly use but it can work for sure

But I would personally wait for him to wake up and give you tips and a team

[solar oracle]

Thank you

[sleek laurel]

Because I can build Snow but I can't pilot it so he can give you the playing tips

And np gl

[solar oracle]

Thank you for the help

[sleek laurel]

No problem

Fangame, ping us both when you wake up, plz ty

[misty tapir]

https://pokepast.es/537c5db9aa430af1 Who should lead and who should be in the back?

[sleek laurel]

Extremely game dependant

Also

You forgot to fix the Amoonguss Tera and EV/IV spreads

My rate was ignored gonna sob in a corner now

Jk

LMAO

[misty tapir]

Wait, I did but I forgot to copy paste

I'm sorry

[royal kernel]

hey guys, im completely new to vgc and i dont actually know what i've made, id apreciate some help

https://pokepast.es/c020b2c4bef38d86

[random wagon]

this team feels like it’s all over the place, and the team doesn’t really mesh together

it kinda just looks like mons slapped together

Groudon + Koraidon is a pretty bad pairing considering they compete with each other, I’d suggest replacing one with a Lunala or Calyrex-S (preferably replace Groudon but Koraidon can go if you’d prefer that).

Sneasler should really only be used alongside Miraidon because of Unburden.

Maushold sees like no play whatsoever, and Sinistcha has only been successful alongside Miraidon and Terapagos (literally just one team, outlined here: https://pokepast.es/23789bcb350314c6)

some good replacements for these three will change based on your playstyle, but options that have seen success include Flutter Mane, Raging Bolt, Brute Bonnet, Weezing-G, Grimmsnarl, Volcarona, Ogerpon-C / Ogerpon-H, and more fringe options like Ogerpon-W, Scream Tail, Walking Wake, or Indeedee-F.

[royal kernel]

i felt like i was missing something to get speed control like tailwind, but i dont know if i should try some like that

[random wagon]

Some example teams:
https://pokepast.es/ecaf865e1ccf4dde
https://pokepast.es/5eeaa4fb627ac872

[random wagon]

If you feel you need speed control, Flutter Mane works well as a fast Icy Wind user, while options like Lunala and Indeedee-F can provide Trick Room. Even more unique options like Jumpluft with Tailwind work.

[royal kernel]

ok im going to try it

thx for the help

[random wagon]

np! If you have any questions feel free to ping me here or dm me!

[vivid shard]

Honestly huge respects to all the comp helpers cus they take time out of there own day to help us : D (ik this is prolly the wrong channel so lemme ask a question) is Miraidon and Zacian a viable duo?

[random wagon]

tysm!

i think mirai + zac can certainly work but will need the right supports (a way to beat csr, speed control, etc)

[vivid shard]

Np, and thx ill make a team with them soon

[vivid shard]

Also anything i should keep in mind while picking the supporters/defensive pieces, just building the team in general

[random wagon]

just dont have any impossible MUs and you should be fine tbh

[vivid shard]

Whats an mu?

[random wagon]

i think you can just take pieces from standard mirai and standard zac teams from reg g

MU= Matchup

[vivid shard]

Idk anything from other zacian teams

[vivid shard]

Ty

[sleek laurel]

what pengu said yes, and tysm for that

o sorry for 7 hours late 😭 i'm on vacation

nvm pengu got you already

[vivid shard]

Np

[sleek laurel]

LOL

[vivid shard]

Ik

[sleek laurel]

im too used to responding quickly

[vivid shard]

I still dont know what other zacian teams look like asides mine

[sleek laurel]

show it if you want

[vivid shard]

Lol i feel u

[sleek laurel]

most zacian teams are usually paired with kyogre atm

[vivid shard]

Well its the one u made soo ye

[sleek laurel]

zac mirai i would argue is probably the second best zac team tho-

oh

OH YEA RIGHT

isnane

[vivid shard]

https://pokepast.es/073e34fef803e335

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[sleek laurel]

is it not gonna-

ok well

that's on me sorry gang 😭

[vivid shard]

Lol no worries

[sleek laurel]

lol

mainly ghost-talking to the other raters rn but uh amogus

[vivid shard]

Isnt he like REALLY slow tho, cus like mirai and zac are fast

[sleek laurel]

who

[vivid shard]

Amoongus

[sleek laurel]

i

OH

"Amogus" is just

"insane"

[vivid shard]

Amogus = Amoongus?

[sleek laurel]

LOOOOOOOOL

[vivid shard]

Ohhh LOL

[sleek laurel]

no, it's just your average internet slang

coming from the actual game

LMAO

[vivid shard]

Lolll idk all the slang

[sleek laurel]

i don't think the human brain can store all internet slangs

i would bet there is more than 85 billion neurons' capacity worth of internet slangs out there

[vivid shard]

Now whenever smth is insane imma just say "thats so amoongus"

[sleek laurel]

lmao

[vivid shard]

fr

So anyway, i need ghost type?

[sleek laurel]

for what

this team?

this team is good as is lol

[vivid shard]

Zac and Mirai

[sleek laurel]

o

i think dark types are more valuable

[vivid shard]

Aka incin?

[sleek laurel]

incin, grimm, maybe consider av miraidon

or scarf miraidon

i think all three miraidon sets can work funnily enough

[sleek laurel]

yea, mainly because csr is just so worrisome

for this duo

[vivid shard]

Feel like av might be better to maybe tank astral barrage or any other strong moves right?

[sleek laurel]

av mirai is the nichest set but i have an eye out for it on this team (also like, it's not bad at all anyway)

especially since miraidon mirrors are less worrisome

because you zacian the opposing miraidon

("zacian" is a verb here)

[vivid shard]

Ye and zacian is RLLY good in the meta ive notice, cus doing dmg calc it can ohko a lot of the mets threats

[vivid shard]

Ye

[sleek laurel]

i find it funny it hasn't gotten more success so far too

ig it fumbles into csr zama

but its great into everything else lmao

[vivid shard]

Ye but incin can kinda take both tho risky if u run flare blitz

[sleek laurel]

incin cannot take on zamazenta without a lot of support

but it absolutely takes on csr

[vivid shard]

Ohh ye cus defense

[sleek laurel]

yea blitz does like what

40

LMAO

4 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. +1 100 HP / 236+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 60-72 (33.3 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

IM SO GOOD AT THIS

anyway

[vivid shard]

Fighting doesnt resist fighting so sacred sword zac still handles zama

[sleek laurel]

sacred sword helps

and allows zac to 1v1 but it doesnt ohko

[cursive mason]

yeah most zama archetypes give it trouble and tbh mirai can still be tricky bc a lot carry incin

[sleek laurel]

yea fair enough

zama archetypes give it noteworthy trouble

[cursive mason]

like sacred coverage is good but I think SD is just clearly superior most of the time bc it gives you a play vs incin

[sleek laurel]

this is tech tho!
(i know its suboptimal)

yea

[vivid shard]

Ye but i tryna make it work cus mirai and zac 2 of my top 5 legendary easily

[cursive mason]

mirai Zac is def one of the easier duos to make work

[sleek laurel]

it can work you just need noteworthy zama and csr counterplay

which is why i particularly like av mirai here

[cursive mason]

probably a volc angle

[sleek laurel]

it not only helps with csr

[cursive mason]

too

[sleek laurel]

o yea that too

good find

[vivid shard]

?

[cursive mason]

eseed volcarona carries the csr zama mu for a lot of mirai builds

[sleek laurel]

but as long as you can slow down or move zama away from the mirai (av mirai runs slow)

it allows you to not get trolled by Protect -> decides whether or not to Tera

[vivid shard]

Ohh ok would incin still work or would overlap be too big of issue

[sleek laurel]

unless its Tera Water Zama but I don't like that one

[cursive mason]

You run electric seed volcarona with flamethrower struggle bug quiver dance protect, and most csr zama teams can have trouble stopping that bc they don’t have good ways to hit volc (it walls zama, rilla, does rly mind incin)

[vivid shard]

Ohh

[cursive mason]

You could feasibly run both

it’s just a matter of like do you have the slots

but I’ve seen builds with both

[sleek laurel]

yea

but like

you want mirai zac, you want volc, you want some sort of speed control

(grimm is what i'm looking at here the most)

[vivid shard]

Ill start team building prolly tmrw cus i have like a 2 hour car ride im just taking notes for tmrw

[sleek laurel]

you want a trick room answer

[sleek laurel]

fair

[cursive mason]

Yeah Grimm is def a good shout with volc

[sleek laurel]

dw

[vivid shard]

Why grimm?

[sleek laurel]

and with mirai in general, plus it helps against csr

especially if you fail to properly slot incineroar

[cursive mason]

prob looking at hands for this role

[sleek laurel]

100% yes

[vivid shard]

Ye iron hands is fun

[sleek laurel]

and i think you also probably want urshifu

because water coverage + breaks sash + helps against incineroar which zac dislikes + its fucking broken LMAO

[vivid shard]

So far we have Zac, Mirai, Volc, Urshi, Iron h, and grimm. i assume volc use tailwind?

[cursive mason]

Nah

[sleek laurel]

nah

[cursive mason]

you don’t have room

[sleek laurel]

grimm is your speed control

and you can't slot it yea

[vivid shard]

But doesnt he use tr?

[sleek laurel]

no he uses prankster twave

[vivid shard]

Ohh so instead of making me faster it makes them slower

[sleek laurel]

yea

zac is the second fastest restricted mon in the game anyway

[vivid shard]

Another w for sword dog (as per usual)

[sleek laurel]

and while csr can run tera dark

you've probably

afforded enough counterplay to it by now

with grimm and volc

[vivid shard]

Lemme right this down lol

[sleek laurel]

i can slide you a team rn anyway if you want

as for the miraidon set, you can test them all out

[vivid shard]

Sure thatd be great actually!

[vivid shard]

I personally dont like hyper offense that much and the other sets seem too close to that

[sleek laurel]

not necessarily but they're more offensive for sure

but ye fair

lemme slide the av version then

[vivid shard]

Thx

[cursive mason]

ah right no hands on this version hm

[sleek laurel]

oh fuck you're right

[vivid shard]

idk whats going on now

[sleek laurel]

i completely overlooked that

[sleek laurel]

item clause

[vivid shard]

Oh ye

[cursive mason]

usually iron hands only uses assault vest

[vivid shard]

Does anyone else use life orb?

[sleek laurel]

not yet no

[vivid shard]

Give it to mirai

[cursive mason]

you don't really want anyone to have life orb on this so far

[vivid shard]

Then nvm

[cursive mason]

specs/scarf is the better item for mirai

[sleek laurel]

is lorb prot mirai that bad btw

[cursive mason]

it doesn't rly need protect bc it can always just volt switch

[sleek laurel]

i know specs is usually better but like

[vivid shard]

Ye but being locked into one move can suck

[sleek laurel]

yea fair enough

[cursive mason]

I mean it's not baddd but like outclassed

[sleek laurel]

yea i've always looked at it and gone like

"its not that bad but ehhhhhh"

lol

yea probs just do specs then

[vivid shard]

Its not that i dont like choice items its just that WAY too many times its screwed me over

[sleek laurel]

lol i kind of feel you

[vivid shard]

Prolly just skill issue on my end tho

[sleek laurel]

i used to have this problem before too

@cursive mason what tera does volc run again

I've never build with qd volc LOL

[vivid shard]

I think tera ground might be nice on volc right?

[cursive mason]

fire is seeing a lot of play right now

[vivid shard]

Wait what type is volc?

[sleek laurel]

bug/fire base

[cursive mason]

there's that or like dragon/grass

[sleek laurel]

o yea it has 50 different

[vivid shard]

Ohh

[sleek laurel]

yea i was looking at dragon grass

[vivid shard]

I though volc was bug/fly

[sleek laurel]

do you have an ev spread btw

i have't

[cursive mason]

but fire is nice to get the ohko on like csr and stuff

[sleek laurel]

seen it much at all

[cursive mason]

I do not

might be one on pastes

[sleek laurel]

ok i feel less bad now

google time gg

[vivid shard]

Ill figure out an ev spread

[sleek laurel]

found one

[vivid shard]

Nvm ig

All this information is giving my a headache lol 😭 (or i just forgor to drink water)

[sleek laurel]

😭 lmao

[vivid shard]

Im back and i drank water and it didnt help so ill be back in a lil bit once i dont have a headache so brb

[sleek laurel]

https://pokepast.es/4c9b8fb6a03f4fa2

ah ok

glhf lol

[vivid shard]

K im back

Ooh thx its a cool team

[vivid shard]

Well ill cya later

[sleek laurel]

np lol

sorry its getting late here im actually going to sleep very soon

[hollow scroll]

https://pokepast.es/2df547cf09bff380

First team I've built that I've had some success with. Scarf Miri to out speed scarf Ursh/Chi-yu and obviously CSR.

I love this CIR set as Tera grass eats up leech Seed and Imprison shuts down their lance, plus anyone with a protect.

Rilla/Incin was the final two that I added for the core 4. Love the ability to pivot plus double fake out is nice.

Smeargle was added as I love decorate into CIR plus leading it with Miri gives me volt switch into Spore (Rilla in the back) which catches some people out.

Volc is my fix for Zam/Zacian. I'm sure there are things to fix maybe spreads or even move sets. I do lack speed control however I can usually play around both tailwind and TR.

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[broken shuttle]

i like most of this, i think the only real issues are the cir set and the volcarona slot

the cir set is kind of just gimmicky

if you want to shut down leech seed csr you can just intimidate cycle it with incineroar

you don't need to bother with both tera grass and imprison

i would recommend just going with trick room over imprision and tera water over grass

the incin should be flare blitz over protect on this team also

i think volcarona should probably be urshifu-r— that allows you to break through zamazenta without needlessly doubling up on roles

& then i would probably replace smeargle here with amoonguss, as it still gives you spore + redirection while also helping a lot into kyogre & the mirror + it frees up focus sash for your urshifu

max max caly is kind of excessive

you usually want some extra bulk in order to take on CSR/Miraidon better

https://pokepast.es/f0cc17d6fedb593d

[hollow scroll]

Thanks so much, will give this a go. 👍

[sage jasper]

https://pokepast.es/9692f7f251f0ed81 happy with this team, dealing with a few issues here and there. how do i deal witha grimmsnarl + restricted lead or a lunala

those mons give me such an insanely hard time

id appreciate the help

[reef bough]

https://pokepast.es/2003b1c31d806592

i like this team 🙂

[random wagon]

ok so

this team i think has a viable structure but just doesn’t really work. A lot of the sets are rather suboptimal and just arent very good (notably rillaboom)

starting with koraidon, i think the only way adamant is acceptable is if you drop dragon claw for flame charge. DClaw just doesn’t do much in my eyes without Life Orb.

moving on to Calyrex-S, Solar Beam seems very, very situational and i dont think you would click it very often into much anyways. Psychic seems like a suitable replacement.

whimsicott should be running covert cloak; taunt and encore are rarely an issue, and if you are scared of a torn’s taunt or whims’s encore, you can run tera dark. You also definitely want a damaging move on Whimsicott, so you can probably safely drop Protect for Moonblast, considering you are shielded from Fake Out with Cloak.

Hearthflame is… questionable. Solar Blade and Play Rough!? The issue i have with Solar Blade / Solar Bean is that it is far to reliant on Sun, especially in a format with Kyogre and Torn with Rain Dance running around. Play Rough also kinda sucks, and often times you do more with Ivy Cudgel anyways (also run Wood Hammer / Power Whip over Solar Blade).

Personally, I think Rillaboom should go. You just don’t benefit much from it. I think something like Raging Bolt with either a AV set or more offensive build could work out

Incineroar looks fine, just interested in what the EVs do, could probs invest more into bulk

[sleek laurel]

Adding on to what Pengu said, I actually think of all Ogerpon formes, Hearthflame actually offers less value than most others

It's really intuitive to think that "Oh, Sun-boosted Ivy Cudgel", but the coverage is actually overlapping and it offers less defensive use compared to other formes (mainly Cornerstone), which is most often more valuable than just overlapping big damage

I would personally try Cornerstone Ogerpon over Hearthflame for the defensive benefits of more reliably redirection and wider coverage (with either Power Whip or Horn Leech, or Knock Off as the second move, don't run Wood Hammer - keeping Sturdy intact is going to, on average, win you more games than a Power Whip miss is going to lose you games if well played)

[harsh zealot]

https://pokepast.es/0a1079810f6fdd9b

Can anyone please check this team? It's supposed to be a hyper offense team built around CSR, but not only am I unsure if I even chose the right pokemon, I am also unsure about many details.

Starting with CSR, I keep using pollen puff because I find it useful not only against dark types, but also against farigiraf and indeedee, though I am unsure if I should be playing a different move here.

I'm new to using Korai and basically copied the top set on the smogon dex, so I'm not sure whether I should be using lorb or amulet here, as well as whether I should use adamant or jolly.

For Chi-Yu, I'm not really sure if psychic is viable enough to justify dropping snarl—the way I understand it, snarl chips focus sashes while psychic can hit Urshifu-R. (The reason I put psychic here in the first place is that it has helped me before, and I feel like I wouldn't know how to recover if Chi-Yu gets locked into snarl.)

I'm not sure if I should even be using Hearthflame here instead of Urshifu-S or Cornerstone—also, if I do run Ogerpon, I'm wondering whether I can just run Ogerpon with 252 Atk and 252 Spe instead of investing in bulk, since I feel like follow me is more to protect from spore than to tank damage here.

I gave Flutter Mane taunt so that I can block TR, but I'm not sure if only one non-trickster taunt is enough against a lead like Indeedee-F and CIR. I did try to run imprison and TR before over shadow ball, but I feel like that made Flutter Mane a bit useless. Also, should I be running booster energy if Korai is already on my team? I can't seem to find another item to run if otherwise, as sash, which is recommended by the dex, is already on CSR (who I can't play meaningfully without a sash, as CSR faints before even getting to move way too frequently without one).

Finally, I'm not sure if Whimsicott is better than Torn here, and I'm unsure if encore is a good move and if I should put EV's into SpA.

Sorry if this is too long.

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[harsh zealot]

Should I maybe put helping hand instead of encore on Whimsicott? It was apparently recommended in other formats but not Reg I.

[jovial creek]

this looks fine

[harsh zealot]

Would it be a good idea to use helping hand instead of encore on Whimsicott for more offensive power?

and can i run 252/252 Hearthflame?

[jovial creek]

I don't think you need more damage

encore could be nice to discourage protects

[harsh zealot]

ok thx

how can i deal with double tr setter lead?

like indeeder/farigiraf + cir

[lyric void]

https://pokepast.es/8f61e274c67e6870

[trail agate]

Farigiraf + CIR sounds like a pain in the butt 😅

[ripe turret]

lead flutter + chi-yu and taunt dpulse turn 1

or you could always lead double taunt

although if they follow me it could be problematic

you could also lead korai chi-yu and try to nuke them turn 1 if they have indeedee

[ripe turret]

a few other things, psychic on chi-yu is not that useful here as you already have sun which kinda neuters urs and multiple other super-effective moves

and for flutter’s item, I would still give it the sash and train csr in a little bit of bulk

and give csr a spell tag or something

I definitely think cornerstone is better than hearthflame here since you don’t have to invest in its bulk at all due to sturdy, and its typing is useful to hit fire types which you can’t really deal with too well right now

[ripe turret]

if you don’t like snarl then I would suggest flamethrower, it’s just a completely accurate move with no drawback which is nice, and it ohkos amoonguss

[harsh zealot]

I don’t think any amount of bulk I give it is going to protect it from like a sucker punch or something, and CSR already seems to be doing too little damage. Is there a different item I can give Flutter Mane, since I’ll be bringing Flutter much less frequently?

[broken shuttle]

i don't think you really need flutter mane on that team

you have whimsicott already, it's kind of just redundant with that & csr both on the team

[ripe turret]

I mean the point of csr is that it’s not supposed to survive that stuff, it’s supposed to be reliant on strong positioning

[harsh zealot]

it’s a counter to opposing CSR with icy wind as well as a way to access non-prankster taunt

[ripe turret]

if you want more damage spell tag will hel

help

and you can also consider running setup maybe

although that probably won’t work with your team

[harsh zealot]

without non-prankster taunt, a single farigiraf can wipe out my entire team on the first turn

[ripe turret]

uh

[harsh zealot]

yeah, my battles seem to be too short to benefit from np

[ripe turret]

you have chi-yu no?

[broken shuttle]

https://pokepast.es/789980a35c18d86c

made changes

bolt gives you a bulky stopgap into the mirror & miraidon, while also just generally being able to force damage really effectively

hearthflame didn't really offer all that much as a fire type since you already have chi-yu, cornerstone with taunt allows you to fold the flutter mane and ogerpon roles into one

between chi-yu and sash csr you're already abundantly prepared into the mirror

flutter mane is kind of unnecessary

oh i missed psychic chi-yu

it should be snarl there

[ripe turret]

they said that they don’t like being locked into snarl

[broken shuttle]

https://pokepast.es/fa212c259ae6bfea

[broken shuttle]

that's fine, the other moves are generally better clicks regardless

[harsh zealot]

thx though i’m EXTREMELY bad at playing defensively so idk if i could use raging bolt well

[broken shuttle]

being locked into psychic is also infinitely worse than being locked into snarl

[ripe turret]

true true lol

[broken shuttle]

i think it should be volt switch bolt here also

https://pokepast.es/402be966780a982c

the momentum is really good to setup good board positions for caly & chi-yu

& having ewebs allows you to create positions where you can protect + webs & get free speed control

something else you can consider here is fake tears whimsicott over taunt

it makes basically all of the special attackers on the team unwallable

[harsh zealot]

wouldn’t fairy coverage be good?

is there a way to not use raging bolt?

[broken shuttle]

you have moonblast for fairy stab already?

[harsh zealot]

it does like no damage though

[broken shuttle]

possibly, i don't think anything really fits better there

[broken shuttle]

the question is, what do you specifically need fairy type damage for that the rest of the team does not already cover?

[harsh zealot]

mirai?

also i can’t hit water types without a grass type move on cornerstone

[broken shuttle]

you have bolt + tailwind + chi-yu + korai + caly

you can certainly out-offense it

[broken shuttle]

other than kyogre a water type is a useless bring here

& if they do bring a water type it just gets obliterated by bolt

[harsh zealot]

the thing is idk how to use bolt

[broken shuttle]

the point of bolt

is that it's supposed to soak up attacks & deal a lot of damage in return

you're using it as sort of a bulky pivot

that can also go on the offensive

[harsh zealot]

the thing is i’m very bad at using bulky mons

[broken shuttle]

then use it & get better at it

[harsh zealot]

i’ve tried getting better at slower mons before

it never ended well

maybe because i’m really bad at positioning?

[jovial creek]

Thats just something you get better at by failing

🤷‍♂️

If you try to use bolt and it doesn't work, ask yourself where it went wrong and how to do better next time

Im sure geph or I could help you if you need

[harsh zealot]

idk i just feel like raging bolt doesn’t really match my playstyle of moving first and fainting quickly

[broken shuttle]

the issue is

[harsh zealot]

like my battles usually end in like four turns

[broken shuttle]

you have to actually position in order to create board states where this occurs unless you pull a good matchup off rip

unless your opponent's team is poorly constructed or they throw, most of the time it will not be as easy as just "click the funny button and it dies"

[harsh zealot]

even at really low levels?

[broken shuttle]

i mean sure at low levels a lot of the time it can be that easy

because again,

at low levels your opponent is more likely to have either a poorly constructed team or to just throw outright

but if you want to get better at VGC you're going to have to learn how to play positionally

there are hyper offense teams like the one you sent in that can deal a lot of damage very quickly, but those teams still rely on good positioning in order to truly thrive in most matchups

[harsh zealot]

can’t i for example use Cornerstone to pivot?

[broken shuttle]

in some scenarios sure

but a bulky glue mon like bolt just gives you so much flexibility into difficult matchups and makes it much easier to actually create boards where caly/chi-yu/korai just win outright

basically the vast majority of skill expression in competitive pokemon is how you are able to position your pokemon to create opportunities for you to win

[harsh zealot]

ok thanks ig i’ll try to see if i can learn bolt

[broken shuttle]

gl !

[broken shuttle]

if you need any additional help with teambuilding or replay review i would suggest you check out the smogonvgc discord, there are a lot of people there who would be more than happy to help out!

https://discord.gg/HTmeqQDM

[harsh zealot]

tysm!

[ripe turret]

hm

this seems like a server that I also should join

[harsh zealot]

Sorry if I'm being annoyingly stubborn, but can I keep using Flutter if i REALLY like using it? I tried some games with Flutter vs with Bolt, and I felt like I really enjoyed being able to just outspeed opposing CSR and other faster pokémon, and I really like icy wind for speed control because it takes effect on the same turn, unlike electroweb from Bolt, which doesn't hit until the end of the turn. (I think I just really like the speed stat in general lol.) I also really like having moonblast from Flutter because it actually deals meaningful damage compared to Whimsicott. The booster energy doesn't seem to be wasted either as Flutter often enters before Korai. Is Flutter here like absolutely disastrous, or can I keep it if I have a very strong personal preference for it?

[broken shuttle]

flutter here is kind of just redundant is the issue

it doesn't really offer you anything that the team doesn't have already

[harsh zealot]

hm because i feel like it does quite a lot in my games

e.g. lots of speed control

and an actually decently strong moonblast

idk

[broken shuttle]

it probably does seem to do more based off of how you would play

but since you have whimsicott on the team flutter mane is just genuinely unnecessary

tailwind is much better speed control into faster teams than flutter mane is

just click tailwind

[harsh zealot]

half the teams i'm fighting seem to also have tailwind

[broken shuttle]

sure, then you have other tools into that like sash csr/jolly korai/ewebs bolt

& staggering tailwind turns

[harsh zealot]

mirror teams often also have sash CSR, no?

[broken shuttle]

sometimes yes

[harsh zealot]

idk maybe i'm just playing at a low enough level where it's not redundant yet?

[broken shuttle]

but you have ways around that also

[harsh zealot]

i tried to use bolt but i feel like i felt the absence of flutter more than the presence of bolt

[sleek laurel]

what

does one need

lemme catch up to this

[sleek laurel]

i feel like

if flutter's good for speed control

then you probably want to replace whimsi instead

[harsh zealot]

i mean tailwind is more important

[sleek laurel]

ofc flutter needs sash tho so you probably just do clam korai and lorb csr

in that case

but

[harsh zealot]

maybe i can run imprison tr flutter mane?

[sleek laurel]

it depends

[sleek laurel]

no this is incredibly bad

[harsh zealot]

oh ok

why is it so important to have a slow and bulky pokemon? i feel like i have an aversion to using slow pokemon or something

[sleek laurel]

because it helps with opposing slower team matchups

[harsh zealot]

i have the equivalent of two sashes so can't i use those as defense?

[sleek laurel]

especially trick room matchups

[broken shuttle]

you need to be able to actually withstand hits in order to position your mons effectively

[harsh zealot]

i mean if tr goes up i'm not surviving a tr team

[broken shuttle]

you absolutely can lol

[sleek laurel]

(its 5 am i cannot feasibly teambuild rn)

[broken shuttle]

you have protect, two sash users, and a tera electric bolt

[sleek laurel]

but yes

[harsh zealot]

what if i use an indeedee-F instead of bolt?

[sleek laurel]

usually terastallization also helps a lot in that regard

what is with the aversion with bolt 😭

[harsh zealot]

indeedee-F is tanky and can reverse/imprison tr

my teras are pretty much all offensive

[broken shuttle]

the thing is you just don't really need it

[sleek laurel]

tera electric actually

has an incredibly good

defensive benefit on bolt

especailly against tr

[broken shuttle]

bc you lose your calyrex ice weakness !

[sleek laurel]

because you drop your weakness to Stupid Lance

[harsh zealot]

how would stalling tr even work?

[broken shuttle]

well it depends on the matchup and the board

[harsh zealot]

i think i've stalled it successfully before but i just end up losing because i lose way too much resources

[broken shuttle]

but usually if you're able to stagger your protects & get a few key double switches it can work

[harsh zealot]

and sometimes it just goes back up anyways because i've dealt no damage for four turns

why is imprison tr flutter mane so bad?

[sleek laurel]

because it has 0 bulk

and gets ohkod by neutral glacial lance

if they just don't trick room

[harsh zealot]

ah

[broken shuttle]

you're also wasting two moveslots on a mon that already has a lot of moves it wants to run

[sleek laurel]

yea

and it also learns taunt anyway

so lmao

[harsh zealot]

idk i just feel like i want to have the speed advantage even if i end up using somewhat redundant mons

[sleek laurel]

ima crash out i cannot teambuild rn

ill wake up and see how this went at the end

[broken shuttle]

gn

[sleek laurel]

gn chat

[harsh zealot]

sorry gn

[sleek laurel]

its fine

my fault for being here at 5 16 lmao

cya

[broken shuttle]

the problem is

[harsh zealot]

idk i definitely feel flutter helping with mirrors

[broken shuttle]

the way your team was built initially

if trick room goes up you basically have 0 counterplay

into it

so while flutter mane might be useful into specific matchups like the mirror, its redundancy makes it a huge liability into stuff like calyrex-ice

[harsh zealot]

i feel like for my team trying to stall tr wouldn't be consistent either way and i'd rather be faster in other matchups

[broken shuttle]

the problem is

[harsh zealot]

idk

like for example scarf urshi-r

[broken shuttle]

your team is ineherently flawed if you cannot beat calyrex-ice under trick room

[broken shuttle]

scarf urshifu does literally nothing into you

you have a koraidon and a raging bolt

[harsh zealot]

i can semi-consistently prevent tr though

[broken shuttle]

by doing...?

[harsh zealot]

i feel like

taunt

[broken shuttle]

that does not work if they have redirection

which a huge portion of caly-i teams do ftr

[harsh zealot]

what if i use an indeedee to reverse or imprison tr?

idk i just really don't want to use a slow attacker fsr

i feel like i'm willing to take the loss if the opponent sets up tr if it means i can be faster elsewhere

[sonic wind]

if you don't know the reason but still want to improve the team, you should swallow and accept it; slow bulky Pokemon have been proven to be the most consistent on structures like this, so the raters are offering you the most optimal solution.

it's up to you to choose to improve the team or to ignore the advice, but it'll be very hard to get other advice and/or benefit from it in this channel if you choose to ignore specific key points

[harsh zealot]

Got it, thanks. Sorry for causing so much trouble.

[misty tapir]

Should I try something like Urshifu instead of Amoonguss?

[broken shuttle]

i think i would actually test either grimmsnarl or urshifu over ursaluna here

amoonguss fits

but ursaluna is kind of just redundant here imo

[misty tapir]

Ursaluna actually helps me win

But Amoonguss is who costed me my recent matches

[broken shuttle]

the problem is

calyrex-ice isn't really consistent enough of a trick room setter to get it up on its own enough to support another tr sweeper

i think you realistically can drop amoonguss here though

for something like grimmsnarl/urshifu

i think i would test grimmsnarl urshifu>ursaluna amoon

[misty tapir]

Alright

Rapid is better, right?

[broken shuttle]

yes definitely

[misty tapir]

Although my team is actually semiroom

[sleek laurel]

I mean

It can definitely be enough if you know when to bring which 4

There are many mus in which cir + ursa under 4 turn tr just win

And you can oftentimes afford to take 80 with cir to get into that position but its very game dependant

[sleek laurel]

But from my experience playing mirai cir ursa

Ursa is probably the mon you bring the least

[tight adder]

Again, thanks for the team, i’ve been doing really well with it.

however csr is kinda awkward for me as i feel like it doesn’t fit most of the time, what do you think i should don about this?

[sleek laurel]

How come?

Usually a Restricted Pokémon isn't the one that doesn't fit lol

[tight adder]

i’ve played against a lot of different chien pao, urshifu and incineroars that outspeed and one tap my shadow rider

[broken shuttle]

@nimble dome

[tough otter]

https://teams.pokemonshowdown.com/view/1199533-xnm668pba41vniitm3f0

I needed help with trick room teams
only way to counter trick room in my kit is taunt but mostly they run mental herb which makes me sad

[ripe turret]

what kind of TR are you talking about

like hard TR or soft

[tough otter]

my apologies if im wrong
but i think you are talking about fully reliant trick room team or hybrid trick room team?

if they lead with their TR user
it can be ohko with water spout BUT if they keep it in back pocket then kyogre lead will make no sense

also its confusing if opponent has mental herb or focus sash

another one is calyrex
if they lead with CRI and i dont lead with torn then i lose
if i lead with torn and they threaten to OHKO my torn

[tough otter]

i meant Miraidon and CRI

[sleek laurel]

Ill look at this after lunch

[tough otter]

ty <3
its literally my first day
So i probably have alot of it wrong

[sleek laurel]

Np

[ripe turret]

oh ok I get it

yeah there’s not much you can do in that situation tbh

I guess you gotta lead tornadus and zac and tera dark taunt the caly and play rough/behemoth blade the mirai depending on if you think they tera

also there are some other problems

with your team

[tough otter]

pls lmk

[ripe turret]

ok actually you can’t even do this

bcs your zac is too slow

[tough otter]

i taunt the torn and torn dies

[ripe turret]

well if TR goes up it’s an instant loss

soo

I’ll get back to you in a couple hours

[tough otter]

yes
i js thought
having survival will be good with swords dance like
tail wind + SD
and try to sweep
but this instantly loses into TR

[tough otter]

its a very funny situation
cause i NEED to taunt to have a chance at winning
and get out sped because torn will probs die before setting up tail wind

could fake out work?

[broken shuttle]

okay two easy fixes for this

one go iron hands over chien-pao, this gives you a bulky fake out mon that can allow you to soak up hits to stall trick room

second thing

make your kyogre bulky modest

use

this spread

I CONNECT!!! (Kyogre) @ Splash Plate
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 220 HP / 84 Def / 156 SpA / 4 SpD / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

• Water Spout
• Hydro Pump
• Thunder
• Protect

basically

you can consider two leads into cir miraidon

kyogre + amoonguss or kyogre + hands

fake out/rage powder + spout for big damage off rip

position for an endgame with zacian out of trick room

between kyogre, hands, and amoonguss you should have enough defensive counterplay to get through trick room

i think you should also make your zacian faster than max speed miraidon

because that allows you to secure a lot of lines into miraidon endgames

[tough otter]

Alright understood

I did get blown away by a Miraidon using a move (i forgor name) that dealt damage to everything and healed him
Like i never saw that move

😭

[broken shuttle]

parabolic charge is a little silly yeah

[tough otter]

Yes, i was expecting electro drift and win
But boom
He kills his own CRI and my pokemons
Lost 3v2 with CRI so low

ALSO wouldn't terrain teams give me issues due to no ice spinner?

On that note, could me help me with a lead against Hatterene + physic terrain based team?

[sleek laurel]

This should be one of your easier matchups actually

Zacian matches up well into PsySpam by nature

[tough otter]

So how do i lead into.
Sorry i js can't understand some stuff
Is it due to iron head? Or smth else im completely missing

[broken shuttle]

lead your restricteds and attack + water spout

most teams like that can't handle spout defensively

[tough otter]

Alright, out damage them

Sounds fun :)

[broken shuttle]

yeah you can win a lot of games out of just aggressively clicking water spout

[tough otter]

So
Pao -> hands
Increase zacian speed
Change kyogre

Should i also buff up my zacian's attack
Sometimes i miss few kos without tera boosted playrough or blade

[broken shuttle]

it's fine as is

[ripe turret]

hi I’m back

[broken shuttle]

u just have to be careful about positioning to secure an SD/committing tera to secure KOs

[ripe turret]

question, wouldn’t hands be a lil redundant with urshifu?

[broken shuttle]

no they do completely different things here

hands is bulky w. fake out & takes on miraidon

urshifu is fast with scarf and can clean late game

[ripe turret]

ok I see

[tough otter]

could i do this for my CRI matchup
Spout + rage powder

Even if they pull off TR
I could spore CRI and spout again to KO?

[ripe turret]

eterrain blocks spore

[broken shuttle]

if they don't have miraidon yes

[ripe turret]

ye

[tough otter]

Ofc not miraidon

[broken shuttle]

if not then you can protect & swap hands to get fake out online

[tough otter]

That dude will destroy my kyogre

[ripe turret]

oh also why does your urshifu only have 3 moves on the team paste

[tough otter]

I must have made a mistake when pasting it or smth

[broken shuttle]

slot u turn last

[tough otter]

Im confused

[broken shuttle]

if you haven't alrdy

[tough otter]

So against
CRI miraidon,
Could it be

Spout + rage powder
Then
Swap kyogre and protect amoongus?

[broken shuttle]

i would swap amoonguss and protect kyogre

bc if they don't have farigaraf you can pin them with a fake out for free

[broken shuttle]

*into iron hands

[tough otter]

Fake out pressure on Miraidon
And press spout again?

[broken shuttle]

yes

[tough otter]

DAM

You are a genius

[broken shuttle]

obvs can vary depending on the position

but hands amoon kyo is very forcing for cir miraidon

[tough otter]

Yes ofc but having a general idea will be better than having no idea

[tough otter]

Well im going based on Internationals orleans data set

Miraidon has 40% pairing with CRI
so i feel like having a good idea against that matchup will be nice

Well ofc the ladder on showdown is also filled with super niche combos
Like
Encore + disable, which pisses me off

[tough otter]

On that note
What if they do have armor tail

[broken shuttle]

depends but realistically u can just swap back to amoon or zacian for kyo and atk with hands

[tough otter]

Could it play out
CRI + Miraidon
Trick room + electro
Spout + Rage powder
They switch CRI for armor tail
If i protect kyo and switch amoon for hands
So now i won't have fake out pressure and my kyogre is threatened

That is if they read that im gonna switch Amoon for hands
Which idk, how obvious it is

[tough otter]

So yeah if they don't try to hard read and stick to CRI and Miraidon
I could do that

[tough otter]

Nvm i js attack with hands and switch Kyo

Why am i overthinking

[stiff cosmos]

I haven’t played VGC since Reg H. What’s the meta nowadays?

[broken shuttle]

#comp-general question

[stiff cosmos]

👍

Had the wrong chat open

[frank hazel]

https://pokepast.es/078b2b6a99f0aa71 something feels off with my team, i think whimsicott would be a good option but im not sure what to change.

[drifting onyx]

New [Gen 9] VGC RMT @random wagon, @broken shuttle, @sleek laurel, @wanton abyss, @jovial creek, @sonic apex. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[drowsy fable]

how tf do I beat terapagos

https://pokepast.es/7e357168cb5fe483 Rn I have this, I swapped among us for mold breaker hawlucha to temperarely try to beat terapagos

[stiff cosmos]

https://pokepast.es/1e328e9f490009a6 had some good wins with this team but I know it could be better

[random wagon]

IMO the first two shouldn’t be there. The fish kinds sucks especially since urshifu-r exists and pelipper only fits on very few teams

this isnt one of them tho

since you have cmpagos + av mirai (cool combo by the way) you could try insane bulky with grimm and volcarona instead

iron hands could also be nice

also why does shifu have detect and coaching with scarf? Detect should be jet tbh. Coaching is good but you dont have anything to properly abuse it, i suggest running uturn

or you could swap scarf for sash and keep detect and change coaching to aqua jet

i also suggest experimenting with zama or cir instead of mirai

you could also try out scarf mirai or specs and see how it feels

[random wagon]

Amoon raichu and hawlucha all dont fit IMO