VGC Rates

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @shrewd horizon, @wild sinew, @austere wasp. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[fathom token]

I also thought about using tornadus, but I ended up picking pelliper
tho the way u raised it convinced me to change it
but why cover cloak? isn't mental herb better for this kind of supports?
maybe ur right about indeedee, I put her the psychic seed just to make sure she could survive without adding any sp. def EVs 😅
I didn't know cresselia gets actual usage in this format, and I knew even LESS that it was an actual offensive mon

[misty rose]

covert cloak means you dont flinch against fake out

you can be taunted, sure, but the only thing that will ever taunt tornadus before it gets to act is tornadus itself and thats rare i believe

if you do then tera dark blocks that too

[fathom token]

oh

[misty rose]

also cresselia is like

the best tr setter/supporter defensively

fat as fuck, has a better life dew, levitate, ally switch

[fathom token]

yeah, I do know that

but didn't u say that it can end ursaluna with a +1 sp. atk expanding force?

[misty rose]

re-read it

im referring to armarouge

[fathom token]

oh

ah yeah u meant armarouge, srry about that

[misty rose]

dw

it happens

[fathom token]

wait a second... u just gave me such an idea for a trick room team

[sharp aurora]

Wow! This team is actually winning some battles! But I know my team still needs some improvements. what ya mates think of the team? Any suggestions of stuff I should change?
https://pokepast.es/0ccebb3ca68e3673

[wild sinew]

Well remove the -spe natures as this is a Tailroom team
Move all the defence EVs on Hands to SpD to maximise value from Assault Vest
Swords Dance > Drain Punch Ursaluna, both your modes have a timer and being able to exploit passive play to stall out out with Swords Dance is very nice
Don't like Sash Torn, Bulky Cloak or Tera Flying Sky Plate is better here, one insures you get up Tailwind pretty much every time and is very Safe into the mirror or faster balance teams. The other outputs more damage, abusing the fact that you can use Farigiraf if you're seeking strong speed control. Albeit this is harder to pilot
Ice Spinner > Aqua Jet on Scarf Urshifu, you're going to find yourself clicking it a lot more often. Adamant is also nicer as you still outspeed everything you need to. Would suggest a bulkier spread, can't give the same 44/4/4: minimum as you have Farigiraf.

Pretty solid team though, you could use smogon dex if you're not comfortable with EVs but other than that, good mons that synergise fine, standard Teras and movesets, don't need to change a lot

[sharp aurora]

Finally a team that I made that is actually good!

Anyway thank ya so much for yer help mate!

[wild sinew]

You're always welcome, there was a team with a very similar structure that did great on ladder

[cosmic ferry]

So I wanted to try using basculegion and ended up trying a few things. As of now I landed on a swift swim rain build. https://pokepast.es/168df8d301970a6c this is what have at the moment. Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

[wild sinew]

Basculegion is better on hard rain

So I'd say aim to build that and I can rate final product

[cosmic ferry]

Ok cool thanks

[woven rose]

you gotta have some bulk on flutter

[cosmic ferry]

So should I take some from speed and put into sp. def you think?

[woven rose]

No. You need to invest a lot of EVs in HP and phys def. This Flutter Mane will get slammed by any physical attack

[terse grove]

Hello, I am new in this server. Recently I have made my first competitive team, I focuses on using the movement Soak. What do you think about my team? https://pokepast.es/356be62aaf4f3bb8

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @shrewd horizon, @wild sinew, @austere wasp. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[cosmic ferry]

hello could i get a opinion on a team please

https://pokepast.es/f22b6b4d8250cccd

it would help. thanks 🙂

[wild sinew]

What is your idea here

[terse grove]

My idea is to change de type of my opponent to a water type with dondozo and alomomola. Then finish him with my atackers: Rillaboom, Electross and Heatran.

[wild sinew]

I don't see the bottom half of the team as viable
Or at least they are very sub optimal

[terse grove]

Ok so I should change jumpluf amomomola and elektross

[wild sinew]

Ideally to something like
Grimmsnarl, Gholdengo, Lando T
You don't want to make it entirely reliable on soak, just exist as a tech you can use to beat certain pokemon

[terse grove]

Ok I understand you, thanks for the tips

[cosmic ferry]

@wild sinew could you please look at my team? https://pokepast.es/f22b6b4d8250cccd

[wild sinew]

It's too passive and I'd pretty much make it a different team if I tried to optimise it
Not sure if I should rate it then

[cosmic ferry]

ok thank you

[stray canopy]

https://pokepast.es/10c2868e60f9f92f thoughts

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @shrewd horizon, @wild sinew, @austere wasp. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[woven rose]

your biggest problem is you only have one pokemon that benefits from trick room really. Ursaluna hard benefits from it but the problem is all of the other pokemon are there to support ursaluna at that point. if you lose ursaluna you lose the whole round

shadow tag gothitelle is not bad the problem however is that you have nothing that really benefits from keeping pokemon in. Yawn on gastro can definitely guarantee sleep with shadow tag but a lot of the time yawn can be used to force switches which just does not happen because of shadow tag

[nimble flame]

reasoning behind salamance other than intimidate?

just curious

[stray canopy]

it walls urshifu and tornadus, and can deal good damage back

plus good senergy with urshifu and gholdengo

[woven rose]

why are you running mixed salamence

[stray canopy]

mostly special, with dragon claw as a backup after draco metor

[woven rose]

but physical salamence is just better

25 base points higher in attack and has checks to flutter in iron head and urshifu in dual wingbeat

[stray canopy]

ok, I will try it

[woven rose]

also your urshifu set is really lacking bulk

if you're not running bulk, you have to run focus sash and thats still not an answer

0+ SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 28 HP / 4 SpD Urshifu-Rapid Strike: 338-398 (188.8 - 222.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

you get OHKO'd by moonblast with no special attack investment

same with your chien-pao

sure focus sash saves it but you just get knocked out by another move or next turn

you're forced to use sucker punch and they can just read that and attack with something else

0+ SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Chien-Pao: 320-380 (203.8 - 242%) -- guaranteed OHKO

[stray canopy]

thanka

thanks*

[cosmic ferry]

Okay thank you for the insight

Also that was my brothers team and idk if you remember the basculegion team that I asked about yesterday but I changed it into a more rain oriented team so I was hoping you could take a look at that

https://pokepast.es/de785e4177b71929

[woven rose]

take 4 EVs out of SpA and put them in SpD for flutter

the last 4 EVs are not doing anything in SpA

Tera Flying is kind of awkward, tera fairy on this flutter set almost always the best option

Tera Fire for Rilla is really good because defensive tera is most beneficial on rilla

get rid of the Atk EVs on Pelipper, should go in bulk

it has no phys attacks so they are pointless

you should try spreading out your EVs a little. I don't really have any spreads in mind but you can look on Pikalytics or watch some team building videos that can point out a few things that certain pokemon want to look out for

mostly the spreads on Pelipper, Rillaboom, and Tornadus worry me. They should be a lot more defensive while also being able to apply a decent amount of offensive pressure

Regieleki is pretty good how it is but with tailwind on tornadus you can probably invest some of that speed into bulk. It already has 200 base speed

Tera ghost on basculegion could be interesting because you already get the rain boost for water type moves but you could get boosts to your last respects as well. Tera water or tera ghost could go either way but try and experiment maybe

[cosmic ferry]

Alrighty thank you. I’ll definitely be trying some things out

But in regards to the mon choices themselves are they ok?

[woven rose]

to be more specific here, I'll give you a little jist of what I'm thinking
-Pelipper has some really good HP bulk but you should probably cover for Iron Hands. some defense would be good and I see a lot of tera grounds on pelippers. you can be to urshifu rapid then but you have to position yourself to threaten ursh as well
-Tornadus should be super bulky because it is support and disruption but you should invest a little more in SpA. Torn can pick up some really nasty KOs when everything is already set up.
-Rillaboom is a great offensive threat. Needs a little bit of bulk tho. Heatran eats that thing for breakfast right now and Torn can shread it a little too

[woven rose]

I think the pokemon choices are really good. Only real problem I see is that you look like you don't have too much in terms of electric counters, which the team may struggle against. Changing some things defensively can help with that (like the tera ground on pelipper) You are definitely going to get walled a little by iron hands

[cosmic ferry]

ok thats what ive been having a little trouble with

[woven rose]

Some food for thought may be Lando-T

[cosmic ferry]

alright souds good

[woven rose]

could consider rain dance torn instead of protect and lando-T instead of pelipper. You can run rain or no rain, so you are always sure not to enable your opponent's urshifu-rapid

[grand umbra]

Does anyone know what niche H-Arcannine has?

[terse grove]

Hi, recently I have made a new team with the snow weather.https://pokepast.es/1e0440143fcf5f92 . The Idea was to duplicate the velocity of cetitan with the snowscape of avalugg (defender) or with baxcalibur. Then I include Chien-Pao (A pokemon with a high speed and attack), Amoongus (to support Chien-Pao) and finally farigiraf (The especial attacker).

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @shrewd horizon, @wild sinew, @austere wasp. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[grand umbra]

https://pokepast.es/f6cbd98fe9d63e2d does this composition look fine? I'm going to try out H-Arcanine.

[tulip totem]

Not the best at this, but this team looks like it loses to heatran really badly, your only move to hit it for super effective is earthquake on cetitian, and snow only boosts physical defense

body press on avalugg too, I guess

[terse grove]

Ok thanks I will try to solve it

[grand umbra]

Unfortunately lug has no niche, I'd recommend you replace it with Urshifu-R, it helps your heatran matchup.

[terse grove]

In that I was thinking

[grand umbra]

@terse grove also EQ is somewhat of a bad choice, you don't want to harm your own mons, ST is a better option if you want your entire team alive.

(ST = Stomping Tantrum)

[terse grove]

Ok, Thanks for the help

[grand umbra]

Also I recommend Abomasnow, it's Ability really gets that boost you want immediately.

[terse grove]

What a concidence that before of your comment I replaced avalugg with abomasnow ad made it bulky with teratyp water

[grand umbra]

Leo is here. He will write like a 10 paragraph essay on the team.

[wild sinew]

Team is perfectly fine
Would suggest dropping speed/atk to hit at least 44/4/4 bulk, you'd prefer to go bulkier but that's generally the minimum
Head Smash > Psychic Fangs, Fangs hits nothing relevant and even if you aren't rock head, The power is too good to pass up, gets some important calcs
What does the Torn spread do? Feels too slow and passive for Sitrus sets, mental herb is generally better for these bulkier spreads
I don't like double grass here, Stomping Tantrum or Knock Off are generally preferred over one of the two
Would recommend speed booster Flutter with Icy Wind to help strengthen your speed control, you have 85, 95, 97 all with a neutral nature. Tornadus is pretty slow and Chien Pao is also adamant which makes the extra speed control really valuable
Move 4 hp to 4 Def on Chien Pao to better your Urshifu calcs

[grand umbra]

I went with fangs to remove screens which are a pain in the butt.

[grand umbra]

Also Wdym by double grass? I have ST on boom.

[wild sinew]

My bad

[wild sinew]

Head Smash is generally better as it answers more matchups, screens isn't that bad of a mu here

[grand umbra]

Also is it okay I go stone mi- I mean stone edge? I don't really like the absurd recoil.

[wild sinew]

Not ideal
The rational behind Head Smash is, "I'm taking a lot off recoil, but I'm killing something" it exists as a Nuke button you won't click as often. For example, it kills Amoonguss next to Chien Pao

[winter gulch]

I was using an H-Arc team and Head Smash is just so clickable

especially with Chien Pao

[dreamy swallow]

Hello could anybody give some advice with this team? I’m looking to base it around SS Urshifu and Farigiraf as a sort of anti meta pick? But I’m not the most experienced with this!

(One sec grabbing the paste

https://pokepast.es/80dd9634067aa0e9

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @shrewd horizon, @wild sinew, @austere wasp. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[dreamy swallow]

This team

I’m debating on swapping Torkoal for Skelederg as I’m not running anything that could use sun and May end up being detrimental to itself

[woven rose]

heatran

skeledirge is not viable in comparison to heatran

[dreamy swallow]

I see, what build and stats would you recommend for Heatran? And any warnings for what I need to look out for if I haven’t already got it covered?

[woven rose]

Standard Heatran builds either use AV or Leftovers. Too bad you already have both of those taken. Could consider sitrus on gastro and then leftovers on heatran. Since you don't need to worry too much about heatran outspeeding anything because it doesn't outspeed anything to begin with, I would go for a relatively bulky set with tera grass. For moves I see heat wave, earth power and then flash cannon/tera blast a lot. If you find a way to get AV on it both can work but if you're using leftovers then protect should occupy that fourth slot

but there is a very big problem with the team as a whole. It's not really anti-meta. In fact, it gets destroyed by the current meta. Urshifu is destroyed by flutter and gastro is always knocked out by rillaboom. The only way you can get around these things is terastalization and even after that you still don't really have an answer

[dreamy swallow]

I see… I’m still working it, I am considering if I see a flutter on the enemy team to swap my Fu with another member. Just trying to figure out what works because the current meta is so strong and finding a solution tends to be good. Shame most of the time that’s mirror pick

[remote raft]

hello everyone. I am new to doubles and would like an opinion on my team. it is a trick room team. https://pokepast.es/953fe11b1c8b08c0

I did also change the terra type on ursulna to normal

I tried a few battles with it in showdown and so far it seems to work well

[wild sinew]

Make Ursaluna Tera Ghost for Urshifu and the mirror, Swords Dance > Headlong Rush to capitalise on passive play you'll often see used against trick room (protecting both pokemon, switching in intimidate, etc)
Bronzong isn't very good, especially when you have Cresselia. I'd suggest Focus Sash Tera Ghost Hisuian Liligant to offer a fast mode
Make your Cresselia Tera Fairy for the resistances and stab Moonblast
Id suggest Life Orb/Pixie Plate Flutter Mane as you have sun, and would also suggest more offensive investment (spe/spa). You don't need that much bulk on it, what was it calced for anyway?
Your Iron Hands should be slower in favour of more attack for a trick room team, 156+ is a great benchmark. It should also be Tera Grass

[remote raft]

ok thank you so much this is going to be a big help

is this better now? https://pokepast.es/be33556ecb48da65

[wild sinew]

Liligant should have Close Combat over one of the grass type moves and After you over Encore/Protect for after you + eruption. You dodge fake out with Tera Ghost which makes it fine to drop protect on it

But yes it's better

[remote raft]

it says eruption is illigal

i cant put it on it

what should i run?

i think imma run sleep powder

[wild sinew]

I meant Lilligant uses After you on Torkoal who clicks eruption so it moves before the other team

[remote raft]

right mb i read it wrong

thank you so much

[fathom token]

I made yet another trick room team cuz I'm an addict to it :DDD
https://pokepast.es/f93107f154464560
I wanted to try smth different and give a chance to my fav paradox mon, SW, which hasn't got usage in this format almost at all

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @shrewd horizon, @wild sinew, @austere wasp. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[misty rose]

https://pokepast.es/0c22085caf201e1f

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @shrewd horizon, @wild sinew, @austere wasp. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[misty rose]

broke 1650s and immediately lost 150+ elo

anything that could be changed

[grand umbra]

https://pokepast.es/1ebffa0c2ed053a2 I want to make a team that tries to make garchomp work. (Yes I'm aware that Landorus-T and to some extent Hisuian Arcanine, outclass it)

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @shrewd horizon, @wild sinew, @austere wasp. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[sharp aurora]

https://pokepast.es/482839a66da956bb For the new team I made I’ve noticed that I always choose the same 3 Pokémon Farigiraf, Iron Hands and Ursaluna and a random Pokémon between my Flutter Mane or Tornadus but very rarely. This 3 I always use them in trick room and literally never use my tailwind part if the team so I was thinking. Should I make my team for trick room instead of hybrid? I always choose my trick room part of the team anyway. Probably the reason I never use the tailwind part of the team is because I don’t know when to use them or when is right to use them so I just always go for trick room and it works! I have been winning a lot of times. More than before in fact. So what ya think? Should I find a way to make both parts of the team useful or should I just make a trick room team? And if so. What Pokémon that are good in trick room do you recommend me?

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @shrewd horizon, @wild sinew, @austere wasp. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[sharp aurora]

(Also I got in a bit of a pickle. I’m making a Trick Room team to test it a lil but I wanted to add Amoonguss but I need rocky helmet. Something Farigiraf is already using. What is one good item for Farigiraf other than rocky helmet?

[wild sinew]

Slacking off too much

Should prob rate a few

[wild sinew]

Not really a fan of Scizor here, really it's purpose is to beat Tera Fairy Flutter and then it's not as good for everything else. Amoonguss, Landorus or Heatran work great here. Amoonguss being pretty much a cheat code with Hands and stronger enforces your trick room mode, while Landorus and Heatran have perfect Tailroom speed tiers along with generally being good pokemon in this meta
Urshifu is wasting some EVs via how natures work, 164 EVs hit the same speed tier and if you take them from attack and go adamant, you'll notice you have a higher attack stat. Also not a fan of 188 Hp as bulk, should be heavily favoured towards spd imo. 44/4/140 for example helps you live Extreme speed but also lives Specs Moonblast. Standard Bulky attacker spread also works fine considering you have very dominant speed control.
Tera Dark Torn is unnecessary, your team looks like it's built to function fine without it. Tera Flying's damage or Tera Steel's crucial lives are just better here, also prob better finding a sample spread, maxing out both defences is less consistent than investing in hp afterall and if you run calcs you'll notice
Swap Hp and Def for Flutter, otherwise it's pretty fine
I also don't like mental herb Tera Grass Cresselia here, it's better on hard tr because that's generally the only option they have, you have both Tailwind and TR as options along with simply not going either mode which is what makes Tailroom a good archetype imo, looking for more defensive utility in Tera and items is more helpful. Rocky Helmet/Safety Goggles Tera Fairy is more consistent. If you do go Safety goggles, you'd go Mystic Water Urshifu
Hands should pretty much never be Max hp, Max spd and hitting 156 Adamant is better for maximising value from AV and your EVs, because the hp stat is so high you'll get less benefits investing in it in comparison to the defensive stats.

Also I should note minimum spe IVs are worse, you want them to be functioning outside of trick room a lot of the time if you're playing the archetype correctly

[wild sinew]

I'd suggest you focus more on what makes the two modes good, what is Trick room's strengths and what are it's flaws? It'll obviously have bad matchups, your Tailwind should be able to answer that, Tailwind will have some bad matchups and Trick Room will answer those. You also need to identify the difference even if the two are Hyper offensive archetypes, Trick Room will take a turn to set up and sometimes you realise you can't afford to give your opponent that turn.
If it's too complicated you would go Cresselia over Farigiraf as it's more consistent on Trick Room.

There are a few questionable choices and some EV issues but I think the main thing you want to focus on is playing differently, after you've figured it out the team can be refined to a better extent

[sharp aurora]

Heya mate! I wanted to try a Trick room team and I ended up with this team. I have won plenty if battles while testing it! But I still can’t find a good Pokémon to be the last member if the team. I was thinking of Flutter Mane to take advantage of Torkoal’s drought but just realized that Flutter Mane is kinda fast even with a - Spe nature and 0 IV spe. So what other Pokémon would ta recommend me?

https://pokepast.es/6de0f998861ea948

[wild sinew]

Keep Flutter Mane
I'll expand a bit more, I gtg rn

[sharp aurora]

Oh ok mate! Thanks for your help!

[misty rose]

Thanks, but a correction

Scizor does much more than just nuke flutter mane

It completely walls rillaboom, dents amoonguss and makes for a pretty decent threat to both urshifu forms, tera water allows it to turn the tables on heatran and arcanine to secure a kill alongside a teammate

Its bullet punches do a surprising amount of damage to most fast stuff even through intimidate

The only big issues w it are that it doesnt have the bulk to live tera water or tera dark shifu and that it cannot do much to hands

I appreciate the help w the evs a lot

[wild sinew]

From what it looks like, it's performing as a Worse Landorus or Heatran? They can both ohko Flutter, pressure Rilla, Amoon and both Urshi, Tran notably with Tera Blast. Also how come it handles them if it lacks the bulk and only 3hkos Rapid? Lando particularity seems to do what you're looking for and was on a similar Top 8 team at Pittsburgh

[little apex]

Need help creating a trick room team with these mons in mind, they are part of my favorites roster, i tried a couple and worked but outdated now

[covert hill]

From this list the only viable mons are Iron hands, hatterene, ursaluna, torkoal and heatran

there are some goods mons like dragapult or urshifu dark but not from tr teams

i would reccomend heatran and ursaluna since they're both very solid offensive mons

Also I wouldn't reccomend using hatterene for setting trick room tho, She's my favourite trick room setter but I admit that cresselia outshines her in every single way

If you want to use a trick room of meta team maybe try farigiraf

[little apex]

What about using armarouge and indeedee? What are the other viable mons?

[covert hill]

armarouge and Indeededd is good

but there's a problem

the new mons that good introcued with time

specially urshifu

it isn't a bad core but they're many options way more solid and strong

I would advise against using indeedee armarouge

[covert hill]

There aren't many trick room sweepers but goodra hisui could be an option, although he's used on grim teams with light screen + reflect

the standard trick room uses ursaluna heatran and iron hands

oh amoongus

amoonguss is really solid in trickroom but he's more of a support

[little apex]

Tera grass arma and tera fairy deedee?

I hate among us

Goodraaaaa i forgot about him

[covert hill]

That could work, as I said indeedee armarouge is a good core

but Idk

u rlly need to tera armarouge for it to work

It could work

but I think there are better options nowadays

https://pokepast.es/fc961c3ee6ade427 I think this is a pretty standard tr team

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @shrewd horizon, @wild sinew, @austere wasp. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[little apex]

Ok i’ll make a bunch of teams and i’ll lyk later

With and without arma deedee

[covert hill]

If you want I can help you

[covert hill]

Its up to you

[little apex]

I’m in class rn lul

[covert hill]

Its not like the core is bad

Imo the core is good

but there are many better options

[little apex]

Aight bet, i’ll lyk

[covert hill]

k

I hope i helped

[wild sinew]

Tbh
Everything here except Tusk, Uxie, Glowbro, Meowscarada, Tsareena, Thundy and Scovillain work with the right TR archetype

[little apex]

K

[wild sinew]

Dragapult can be paired with Pao as your fast mode you can use to add more versatility to your trick room comp
And Urshi breaking through Protect shuts down a common strategy against trick room making it fit well there

[little apex]

I’ll try to make a weak armor arma team to do a fast one as well just in case

[grand umbra]

https://pokepast.es/f399c3c1810c8f5a is this good as a trick room team?

[wild sinew]

Cresselia > Farigiraf, a lot bulkier with better support tools which makes it more reliable on an aggressive style like Hard TR. You kind of need to get it off and you don't have backup options.
Iron Hands could use a better EV Spread, but other than that it is fine
Swords Dance > Drain Punch to capitalise on passive play, with Cresselia's Lunar Blessing and Amoonguss' Pollen Puff you won't miss the move at all
Protect/Leaf Storm > Clear Smog, team does fine into Dozo which isn't as popular anyway
Flutter Mane works well here so you can have a variety of leads where you don't go Trick Room T1, it can also be used as a late game cleaner with the ability to protect last turn of tr and do Flutter things

[sharp aurora]

Got it mate! Thanks

[woven rose]

chien-pao needs protect. better than crunch

[winter gulch]

@hot wren rate this https://pokepast.es/9014065dc6a88134

[hot wren]

kk

[hot wren]

The regieleki is pretty random, there is not much of a need to have speed control of a semi TR team, when you already have flutter mane and ik its proto spa but u can save on the teamslot by removing regieleki and using a spread that boost speed on flutter, u already have LO and huge breakers in urshifu and Torkoal...the added spa is not necessary at all and regieleki seems to be a wasted team slot, u can optimize roles better imo with this recommendation. https://pokepast.es/f0619e7876ace7a5 the speed is to outspeed 171 speed creep mons, roaring moon hits 170 at 244 neutral which is one of the most used spreads on pikalytics in 1500's+, so people try to creep that with 171 so u hit 172 speed on ur flutter to outspeed those mons naturally outside of sun ofc

as for replacement on regieleki, you really struggle to urshifu-rapid strike, ofc u have sun but you have no real water resist, besides tera water cress and ofc u can scare it out with flutter mane but late game if they stall ur sun and its scarf shifu/tw shifu what are u going to rlly do abt that. So Id replace regieleki with maybe hisui lilligant, this can also work very well with your torkoal as you can get off eruptions immediately with after you, and then the torkoal can helping hand the lilligant to ensure ohkoes on certain pokemon as well, I also think sleep power disruption is very nice because you lack disruption alot in this team

theres no fake out, theres no redirect either, if some1 just leads offensively against you and you dont just kill them before they kill you its kinda rough theres no stalling potentially really with the team so fast sleep can be really helpful

personally I dont think you need AV lando here I think ursaluna works better, you dont need the bulk because you have an emergency sash as is, torkoal is pretty naturally bulky defensively atleast and ursaluna has fine natural spdef bulk as well and cress I dont even have to say it lol,

it also works a lot better with ur semi TR, rn ur only TR abuser is like torkoal so cress is pretty awkward, and it doesnt help that your urshifu isn't atleast somewhat slower than max

lastly id go earth power over protect on torkoal, or helping hand whichever you prefer

lead heatran vs cress + torkoal otherwise just ruins you

https://pokepast.es/db3d3b26178b67cd this is the end result of the changes, had to forgo the previous sash on shifu to use sash on h-lilligant since sash on that pokemon is far more beneficial, urshifu already has fine natural bulk if you use a more defensive ev's you'll be fine

the speed is to outspeed 228 gholdengo out of TR which people like to lead ghold into TR teams turn 1 to pressure cress

tera poison on shifu for moonblast ofc, thats abt all the changes id make, besides mblast over skill swap on cress but not sure if u have that for a specific interaction or smthing

[fresh flicker]

Dang that's quite a ton.

[winter gulch]

I think I was like 1670 pre-decay with that team

[lone lynx]

this https://pokepast.es/95a0e85fa79b758c

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[north tree]

Swords dance ogerpon doesn't need to be 252/252 as it wants bulk to set up said swords dance, I'd reccomend getting an ogerpon spread from Leo since they have some good ones and I haven't played ogerpon lol.

Tornadus would like to run tera ghost or steel even with covert cloak as that prevents you from getting kod by dragonite extreme speed.

The iron hands spread is quite a lot off, I'd reccomend 4hp/156atk/4def/252spdef/92spe adamant. This spread has minimal hp investment to increase the value of drain punch, a lot of special defense to take advantage of assault vest, and enough speed to outspeed urshifu rapid strike under tailwind.

I think urshifu-rapid-strike doesn't need that much power nor speed, it can run a bulkier set which allows it to take things like grassy glide from rillaboom. I haven't done bulky urshifu this reg so I'll just give you a throw together spread of 108hp/76atk/4def/116spdef/204spe adamant. You live 116 adamant grassy glides from av rilla even with sword of ruin up, the spdef is a dump for numerical reasons, and the 204 spe allows you to outspeed booster speed roaring moon under tailwind.

Chien-pao would much rather have tera ghost than tera fighting as being a 4 attack variant, you don't want to be weak to fake out.

I assume you want a powerful and somewhat fast booster energy spa flutter mane, so a spread of 12hp/100def/140spa/4spdef/196spe should suffice for now, it's not as bulky as most flutter mane, but you shouldn't miss any of the power of your old spread for now.

On the team itself, I don't think ogerpon has enough support to set up swords dance so you may want to keep 252/252 and drop SD for coverage/follow me and horn leech for wood hammer/power whip (please don't use power whip, it never hits).

I'm not too sure on protect tornadus, it would make sense on a bulkier mental herb set but not on a 252/252 covert cloak one. Rain dance might be a better option to boost urshifu to stupid levels of damage, and due to the weather being manual, you don't have to worry as much about ogerpon getting weakened.

Sucker punch > ice shard on chien pao, you pick up many things with aqua jet into sucker punch. Apart from that, the team is great for the metagame rn and I don't see many weaknesses that can't be dealt with good play and experience of the team.

The 4th move on urshifu is never gonna be used 99% of the time so it can be protect for all I care lol

[lone lynx]

well to that I gotta add that all the 252/252/4 stuff is just because I’m very bad at spreading evs

but tysm for the advice

but about protect on urshifu

it’s banded, so that doesn’t really work

I took poison jab to have a super effective move against waterpon, but the ig close combat will do the job aswell

[north tree]

I said protect as a joke because the 4th move is never used

Please don't actually use protect banded urshifu

[lone lynx]

well I wasn’t going to

but I didn’t recognise it was a joke

[north tree]

ah no worries

[lone lynx]

still, ty for all the feedback

[north tree]

One more thing

Ice spinner > crash on pao

You're lucky enough to not be forced to run ice crash

I have to cos I use rilla

And it is living hell

[lone lynx]

I used to run ice spinner, but got told I should use crash

[lone lynx]

right, it would get rid of the terrain

[north tree]

Crash was good when it wasn't common

[lone lynx]

but for me that might even be smth good

[north tree]

Especially into psyspam matchups

which otherwise would be difficult

[lone lynx]

Hmmm another question

why would I run follow me on firepon

it doesn’t get that much bulk

[north tree]

Mainly as an emergency tool

[lone lynx]

so it feels like it would get koed but everything

[north tree]

Just so another mon gets one more turn

[lone lynx]

so it’s also one of those 4th moves

[north tree]

yeah

[lone lynx]

ok

tysm again, i finally got some useful ev spreads aswell now

[prime mountain]

https://pokepast.es/154edeca9a1c39e8
does anyone happen to have a suggested 6th

[hot wren]

The team lacks a dedicated Flutter answer, or fairy resist in general besides tera steel on gyarados, the team is also a bit too physically inclined with flutter being the only special attacker, for the 6th slot id go with an offensive life orb heatran. You lack general breaking power so I think life orb is good here, Heatran fills in the mandatory Flutter Mane check, and allows you to have an easier MU vs SunRoom teams. Life orb also is especially good because you have the support of Grassy Terrain to offset most of the life orb chip damage.

I'd run this particular Heatran set/spread https://pokepast.es/4262cccf65ee30bc

the speed ev's is to allow you to outspeed 4 speed gholdengo, and 0 speed rilla's

You can opt to go flash cannon over overheat, however I think overheat is nice in this case as a general "nuke" button becuase the team lacks immediate power from a choice item like specs or band.

If you are still scared of Flutter Mane though, you can always go back to Flash Cannon over Overheat on Heatran

[mint pilot]

would appreciate some thoughts & help with EVs for this team
https://pokepast.es/0d6b0c28c2b09d2f

[winter gulch]

tldr no immediate damage and too much set up

[wild sinew]

Would suggest Regular Ursaluna over Bloodmoon. I'd also recommend Icy Wind on Cresselia or Flutter Mane to give you more options for speed control, team like like it appreciates that more. But if EVs are just what youre looking for, here

Cress ; 228/0/188/12/76/4 Calm
Hands ; 4/156/4/0/252/92 Andamant
Ogerpon ; 236/76/68/0/60/68 Andamant
Harc ; 252/116/4/0/60/76 Adamant
Flutter ; Can run a lot of spreads, 76/0/140/116/4/172 Timid is my preference

[mint pilot]

thanks

https://pokepast.es/9f36002ce397c11b
also some feedback on this team would be nice

ive been having success with it

[mint pilot]

^one note is I changed sinsitchas tera type to fire

[wild sinew]

Gholdengo or Chi Yu would be preferred over Goltress, they are just better plotters rn. And while Heatran is fine, would be better to switch it into Chien Pao or Flutter Mane respectably. You could also go Swords Dance Wellspring as an option if you want to keep Heatran. Main issue with Goltress is that it lacks the power or bulk to keep up with the current format.

If anything wants Tera Fire, it would be Alolatales. Gets water's important resistances as well as safety into Hearthflame. Lando T wouldn't want to stay in on you, and it is the biggest reason to not run Tera Fire.

Would suggest moving defensive investment to at least hit 156+ SpA with Heatran, when you're not gambling on Magma Storm it's generally preferable to go to the second bump. Would also suggest trying substitute over Tera Blast, how often do you click it?

[mint pilot]

what should I swap wellspring in for? goltress for a fwg core? and what sets for the mon you mentioned

[wanton abyss]

I’m a Goltres believer, I see the vision, Goltres is gonna need more speed, especially if you’re screens. What are you thinking with modest on Sinistcha? What are you hitting?

Yeah I agree with Fire Tera on AlolaTales. FirePon is very dangerous into your team, with Lando being your only outright check

[mint pilot]

honestly idk what any of the spreads are for, they arent mine

[wanton abyss]

stealing spreads is the VGC experience. What do you feel like you’re losing to?

[mint pilot]

idk I havent had any trouble with any particular archetypes

[woven rose]

https://pokepast.es/a9a283dd88e25394
I thought this team was fine but when I take it on the ladder I am not doing great. I feel like I am often not being able to take KOs and sometimes I am having a lot of trouble positioning more frail attackers like ursh, flutter, and Ogerpon

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[austere wasp]

I missed u chatot

Wait wheres tea

[woven rose]

🍵 tea

[wanton abyss]

I’m not an official rater I think

[wild sinew]

I meant all in general in replacement of Goltress, just seems worse then the other options rn or at least much harder to pilot
Standard set up sets and I'll give feedback if you made a relevant mistake

[lusty bolt]

https://pokepast.es/75fa7c004e055e84 is this team too gimmicky?

[woven rose]

serene grace is useless on dudunsparce with that moveset

[wild sinew]

I notice the issue, you want Ogrepon to set up but don't have enough support or bulk to do so. Relying on Gassy Glide will really slow how minimal the damage you're outputtig is. I also don't like the Iron Bundle as it's both frail and lacking in damage, which this team doesn't want.

I'd suggest going a bulkier set like 156/76/84/0/4/180 as a start, Adamant or Jolly depending on preference

Your Landorus is too Bulky imo, it's supposed to be a threatening Scarfer that brings utility just by coming in, would suggest moving up to the second attack bump (116) while also investing more in speed, at least to creep Adamant Chien Pao (127) but I personally prefer to outspeed the Jolly ones (137).

I'd highly recommend Wood Hammer on Rillaboom, over HHP or U Turn ideally. You really want that burst damage and ability to pick up kos.

Flutter Mane is fine, if you want a reassurance of speed control you could go Icy Wind in the last slot but you hardly click the last slot anyway

Now as for Urshifu and Iron Bundle, I'd say they are the weaklings here. I'd recommend Urshifu-RS + something like Clefairy. Urshifu keeps your FWG core while still being, an Urshifu. Clefairy helping bulk your team, while redirecting for oger to set up. This would also let you switch in and out safer which is amazing for a balance core

[wild sinew]

Yes, main issue however is that I don't think you're familiar with the format and would gain a lot of value trying pre existing teams

[lusty bolt]

I wouldn't day I'm unfamiliar but thanks for the feedback

[woven rose]

a few quick questions

the bulkier set that you put there is that for Ogerpon?

Would it also be smart to perhaps calc for KOs on Chien-Pao with lando because the ice really threatens it?

I'm thinking Wood Hammer on Rilla instead of HHP but I feel like it is a little difficult to get rid of iron hands sometimes

If getting rid of the bundle ends up going through do you think it would be smart to replace Tbolt with icy wind and moonblast with protect and putting a booster on flutter?

I have been experimenting with Hands instead of Ursh and I feel like I can position it a lot better (AV on hands and put sitrus on rilla). What would be a good 6th if I end up going hands instead of ursh. I feel like Clefairy could still work but I also think Amoonguss wouldn't be terrible (though Amoonguss stocks are going down with Ogerpon going crazy)

[wild sinew]

Yep! For Ogerpon

Chien Pao very commonly run Sash so unnecessary, being able to ko its partner or u turn out, breaking its Sash, are the main benefits to outspeeding it. If you're slower you're forced to hard switch or outright lose Landorus which isn't very favoured considering its a Top 3 pokemon right now

Wood Hammer actually does more than HHP because of stab and Grassy terrain. Pretty sure it's a 2hko almost. (234 BP vs 190 BP)

You could put a Booster but I prefer Specs here, you don't want your tram to be so passive. Also it seems like the team likes to pivot around having RillaLando. Booster Flutter forces you to play differently but this is just my preference. Try both if you're unsure

Amoonguss is still really good but it's main issue is that you have 2 grass types already, if you were to use Amoonguss you'd replace Rilla with Urshifu or Chien Pao.

[wild sinew]

Apologies then. The lack of protects, wasting evs and item choices are what made me believe so

[woven rose]

I’ll try both of the different Flutters but I’m wondering if instead of booster speed flutter, booster SpA would be beneficial but since the team is very pivotal I see why booster would be kind of awkward

I guess Amoonguss is kind of slowing the team down and making it VERY weak to some relatively common types due to its grass type. I’ll try Clefairy as support but I think I could also try Cress perhaps as healing and reversing trick rooms?

[wild sinew]

You could give Cress a go, it's a great mon

[woven rose]

I’ve saw a bit of bullet seed running around for Ogerpon fire. Maybe instead of having a set up Ogerpon I could go for Bullet seed instead of Swords Dance (though dance is more there for recovering from intimidate drops). If I go cress I think swords dance could be replaced with another attack but Clefairy would allow swords dance so depends which way I go I think

[wild sinew]

SD is still recommended with Cress

[woven rose]

I feel like there should be a different attack than glide in the case that terrain is not up but

1. priority is pretty important
2. ivy cudgel is really good
3. I have noticed that I haven’t been positioning Rillaboom too well to keep grassy terrain up so probably just user error

[wild sinew]

If you keep struggling you'd replace Glide with Horn Leech
Would suggest more practice though

[hidden path]

https://pokepast.es/4192eae0e449a2c7

air balloon is valid but not the best imo

black glasses or av

[umbral valve]

Hello I have made a team and I want to add wellspring ogerpon some in it I also want to know how to properly use this team as I am a beginner https://pokepast.es/c80c608e744e9f70

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wanton abyss]

Hello! It seems like you have two Pokémon who know Trick Room, and if you have two of them, generally you want to use Pokémon that are slower so you can get the most out of Trick Room. With that said, Flutter Mane doesn’t normally use Trick Room. Glastrier is also a hard Pokémon to use right now, as Baxcalibur does a lot of similar things but faster. I like the Urshifu/Tornadus combination! If you’re looking to add Wellspring Ogerpon, it’s worth mentioning that Landorus-Therian will be a problem for your team. Getting Glastrier in safely versus it is difficult, and it can always U-Turn out. My suggestion for further building would be to commit to one form of speed control: either Tailwind or Trick Room. Very few teams have the space to run both. On how to play them, the general idea is to get up your form of speed control first (I.e. your tailwind or trick room) and then start putting pressure onto your opponent

[umbral valve]

Ok so how should I manage my team in terms of Pokemon

Also I I have glastier as a wildcard kinda when there is another tr team

[wild sinew]

Recommendation if you're starting out is prob to stick to one mode
TornShifu or Trick Room Glast?

[umbral valve]

Maybe tornshifu is the best option

But I also really wanna add ogerpon to my team

But I know that Landon will be a problem, how should I deal with that

[rotund carbon]

I feel like im cookin up a storm here but would love a second opinion https://pokepast.es/5e073ef16f8d9d44

[wild sinew]

Unfort wouldn't say the idea and comp are viable, prob better to at least take inspiration from pre existing teams and add on your own touch if that's what you're interested in

[native knoll]

hi chat can you vote this team thx https://pokepast.es/b15d321a4fe2bad5

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[north tree]

Really great team, the empoleon looks quite interesting! I'd like to ask what the spreads do firstly.

[native knoll]

well i want to do a bulky flutter so whit this spread i have to have a 6.3% by icicle crash by chien pao,then i want that empolen resist stomping tantrum by landorus-T so whit this spread i survive the rest are classic spreads

[north tree]

The only problem with your current empoleon spread is that it is rather slow, and doesn't outspeed much even after a tailwind boost. 220 is probably a good landmark for speed investment, outspeeding adamant scarf landorus under twind.

This might require a sacrifice in bulk but I think it's worth it.

Alternatively you can drop the spa down to 20 modest and keep your physical investments while lowering spdef investment to 4.

[native knoll]

but then it doesn't do good damage

[north tree]

Yeah I would prefer the former option

Just left the latter option if you wanted a bulkier mon

[sand minnow]

I play VGC

[wanton abyss]

Respectfully you have burned the kitchen. Gravity Sableye stuff is so hard to pull off at a consistent high level

[native knoll]

yeah is true but the problem if lando-t scarf is supported by tornadus so even if i am slower i can survive stomping tantrum and i do the onko with ice beam

[north tree]

If they lead lando torn into your torn empo

Switch your own lando in turn 1

Which lets you live stomping tantrum

[wanton abyss]

It’s a solid team! I’m personally not the biggest fan of double grass stuff, thanks to there being a solid amount of grass type hate right now. Team seems solid, 6 is strong, Pao matchup is dicey but that’s always an issue

[wanton abyss]

Personally I’m a big fan of the empoleon-tornadus method where you run enough speed to outrun adamant scarf lando in tailwind

That also lets you be much more threatening in other scenarios when you have tailwind up

[native knoll]

ok thx TheEeveeAnimations and Insertable194

[north tree]

Ninetales should have moonblast over howl. I appreciate the concept but howl is only really useful with two physical attackers being boosted and is still niche even then. Thundurus should be replaced for cresselia, thunder wave is not helping glastrier or scizor hit the speed tiers they need but trick room does. Glastrier should run a protect set with figy berry to take full advantage of lunar blessing. I would recommend either tera dragon or water over tera fire. Ogerpon fire should be replaced for hisuian arcanine, as hisuian arcanine resists fire, provides intimidate and pairs with scizor in priority combinations. Speaking of scizor, sd > close combat and clear amulet > sitrus berry, you're quite intimidate weak.

Iron Hands is a good place to start for a last mon, electric coverage pairs well with glastrier under tr and fake out in general helps to anchor the team together. AV is also available now that glast is figy berry.

[hidden path]

ye thundurus sucks

[hidden path]

bro thundurus acc terrible

[shadow ibex]

https://pokepast.es/4944f0728ef70d4e I accidentally hit back and had to start over once

[fresh flicker]

Use pre-existing teams because these are pretty bad.

And there's Item clause.

You can only use 1 of that item on a pokemon.

[fresh flicker]

Who am I kidding, this team is absolute dogwater.

The team isn't good at all.

[shadow ibex]

man

[fresh flicker]

Tell me which direction are you trying to go for?

[shadow ibex]

I don't know I'm a complete beginner

I started getting into competitive like a week ago

i knew about Tyranitar with garchomp

[fresh flicker]

https://pokepast.es/fc82ecbcdde43738 use this. It will give you an idea and a grip of the metagame.

[shadow ibex]

but the whole team doesn't work together very well it's disconnected

thanks

[fresh flicker]

Garchomp+Ttar isn't very good. They are either power crept or outclassed.

[shadow ibex]

probably doesn't help some of my information is outdated

[fresh flicker]

I would recommend you see this team, and check on on what's popular or not.

For example.

[shadow ibex]

thanks

[fresh flicker]

H-Arc, it sets itself apart from Landorus-Therian by its STAB Rock Slide, and E-Speed to pick up KO's and it's ability, Intimidate, also helps it in its niche as a solid mon for tailwind teams.

[shadow ibex]

I also picked quite a few of my Pokemon simply because I like them

I knew Dragonite is kinda good but because I really like him I chose him even though he makes no sense

[fresh flicker]

Replace protect with Tera Blast my bad.

@shadow ibex

[shadow ibex]

alright thanks

3 of your Pokemon have protect which one

[wild sinew]

Landorus

[balmy valley]

https://pokepast.es/12ca47720a4a1961

Reg E

tbh this is so generic other than the funny Bundle spread and tera type

[wild sinew]

Bundle prefers other Teras like Ghost or Ice, it's not eating any hits from Firepon if that was the idea
If anything wants Tera Fire, prob Amoonguss or Iron Hands for consistency into Ogerpon. Not both though
Scarf Lando is kinda just better here for Ogers who threaten your team one way or another, and Sash Flutter sucks, Specs is preferable, Lorb if you want Protect.
Chi Yu just doesn't work as well here and Scarf is pretty mid, miss out on damage and to you can't protect your frailty as well. Swords Dance Hearthflame is what I'd suggest in the slot, and if you want to keep Chi, make it Bulky Goggles NP

[balmy valley]

ok

[balmy valley]

would pixie plate flutter work
Lorb cuts into survivability

https://pokepast.es/8d52559a71cf3891

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @winter gulch, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[balmy valley]

💀

sorry for pings

[wild sinew]

It works ig, may have disappointing output but should be fine
Also Chi should prob be Tera Water or Fairy. 116/0/220/36/4/132 Modest or moving Spe to SpA is what you want as a spread

[balmy valley]

noted will steal the spread

also thoughts on a bulkier bundle spread

[wild sinew]

Can work on the team
Best I can say is go and test

[balmy valley]

as you said it does zilch damage anyways

[balmy valley]

o yeah Timid or Modest here

[wild sinew]

I said Modest

[balmy valley]

o am blind sorry

[wild sinew]

This rmt thread is for the VGC format, Assuming this is Gen 9 OU, you'd get more help in one of the general channels

[vague orchid]

VGC format as in regulation e?

I found it thank you

[wild sinew]

Yes

[vague orchid]

Couldn’t dm the question but that battle stadium singles only allows moderators to type in @wild sinew

[wild sinew]

That's because it is still locked, one of the general channels should be able to help

[vague orchid]

Ok Ty

[prime mountain]

chin up king, your crown is falling 🌟

unfortunately, item clause 😔

[woven rose]

https://pokepast.es/308db79bf41281df
https://pokepast.es/5e651b17d4c53dc4
these are what I'm working with now. It definitely feels a lot better to position but I feel like the last slot (Cress in the first, Clefairy in the second) are kind of awkward and I don't really bring them to a lot of rounds

[woven rose]

Part of me is wondering if Gholdengo could be useful instead of Flutter as it is easier to switch in due to more bulk but I feel like maybe it will lack a little in damage output

[hidden path]

my brudda theres no synergy

[fathom token]

FINALLY
CHANNEL’S UNLOCKED

Man I thought it was getting deleted, I still don’t know why it got suddenly blocked

[shadow ibex]

yeah I noticed that now

[wild sinew]

When do you bring them? I believe they fit fine there and it might be you not seeing the good games for them

[woven rose]

The only time I really bring them is when I feel like a large part of the opponents team threatens most of my team, so I bring them as mostly as defenses rather than them filling their actual jobs

I have had Clefairy eat a few dragon type attacks from the rare Grachomp and Baxcalibur and heal a few of my pokemon but I feel like its just not doing enough

[wild sinew]

Try thinking a bit differently about your team
"Is Ogerpon good as a wincon here?"
"Can I Swords Dance safely?"
"What do I need to bring to be able to set up effectively?"

[woven rose]

Thats what I’m thinking. A problem that I often find myself having is that I use support pokemon too aggressively. I feel like Cresselia is more aggressive that Clefairy but I feel like it doesn’t support Ogerpon as much as Clefairy does

My problem with Clefairy is that I feel like it doesn’t have enough bulk. I feel like there is something that could eat hits more like Amoonguss for redirection but Amoonguss is weak to Fire Ivy Cudgel and Ogerpon is immune to rage powder

[wanton abyss]

Yeah, Clefairy’s a redirector that offers zero offensive presence. What it’s next to has to do a lot of extra work to make up for that

[wild sinew]

SD Oger should be able to do that
Prob experiment more with the teams and try bringing it, seeing what it's good and bad into for future references

[distant stump]

Cress/clef honestly has a lot of opportunity cost

Same with tornadus or other supports, you lose a lot of momentum choosing to bring them instead of an attacker

Something like Oger swords dance as mentioned, or offensive maushold, sinis maybe or even amoongus

has a lot more pressure

[wanton abyss]

I do not recommend offensive follow me Maushold

I will say other redirectors (looking at you Amoonguss) can offer pressure and support in non damaging ways, through things like T Wave Cress or Spore Amoonguss

[distant stump]

You havent seen pop bomb maushold >:(

Its pretty good at redirecting at least 1-2 shots while keeping a ton of offensive pressure

I agree that Amoon is a good shout

[wanton abyss]

Without Wide Lens it can’t hit its pop bombs, without Sash it lives literally nothing, and without max attack investment it’s not taking any KOs. I love Maushold, Pop Bomb money gang, but it fell off after Reg A

[distant stump]

You need wide lense

[wanton abyss]

I think Clef/SD Ogerpon is a good starting point

[distant stump]

I'd start with Oger or Amoongus

But the pop bomb calcs are crazy man

outspeeds oger by 1

It ohko's literaly everything

[wild sinew]

Amoon gives you triple Grass types
I think Clef is fine there

[wanton abyss]

it’s to compensate for not touching grass

[lost phoenix]

Reg b maus was alright tbf

[distant stump]

its still alright :<

Justice for maus

[wanton abyss]

Three grass types means I don’t have to go outside

[distant stump]

Amoon or Oger is fine

[distant stump]

[wanton abyss]

FWIW if you want Cress to be able to click more buttons, I’m a huge fan of Thunder Wave Cress right now

clickable in most scanarios and generally always worth it to paralyze something

[distant stump]

So psychic, t wave, tr and lunar?

I dont really like cress anyways

like 0 pressure

[wanton abyss]

any of psychic, ice beam, or moonblast, depending on what coverage your team needs. You couuuuuuuld drop TR, if you’re committing to T Wave as you speed control

people used to run max spa cress to make up for its weaker offense

[lost phoenix]

Ally switch can force your opponent to play badly as last

[distant stump]

Still like

your doing nothing

its really easy to kill everything around the cress

[lost phoenix]

See the cress merely helps the kill

With healing up teammate, paralysing oppo, ally switching

Can randomly ohko smth with super effective coverage if thats what u need

[wanton abyss]

Cress Ice Beam is also fantastique for killing stray Lando-T

[distant stump]

Who leads lando t's into tr?

[wanton abyss]

Cress isn’t always on hard TR. it’s been a staple for balance for years, just pushed out in recent years in favor of other things

[distant stump]

I get that

[wanton abyss]

I personally think hard TR doesn’t take advantage of Cress’ tools enough

but that’s a different story

tl;dr I’m a fan of Clef over Cress on the team in discussion

[distant stump]

I still dont know about cress, theres a lot of scenarios

Where cress is the last player on my opponents team

Cress suffers a lot from all my friends are dead syndrome

Sure you get sustain but its essentially a 2v1

[wanton abyss]

so do most support mons tbf

[distant stump]

I agree

Thats why I use zapdos instead of torn

[misty rose]

Zapdos seems eh

Especially if you wanna use it for tornadus roles

[distant stump]

I needed a tailwind user

[lost phoenix]

I like zap for diff things

[distant stump]

I dont really need it just to counter other tailwinds

[lost phoenix]

Specifically like eerie zap on tr sometimes actually

[distant stump]

its got very good bulk

good damage with t bolt

[lost phoenix]

Semi tr that is

[distant stump]

Lot of longevity

especially with a berry

[wanton abyss]

My opinion is Tornadus is for more aggressive teams with spread damage and faster tailwind

[wild sinew]

prob better to move it to gen 2 or totw now

[distant stump]

You use torn when you need prio

[lost phoenix]

Yeah

[wanton abyss]

shhhhh

[lost phoenix]

If comp gen is empty u can move there

Better to not clog up this place unnecessarily

[distant stump]

Comp gen?

Oh general

[hollow plaza]

Hey y’all can i get some help with my Kitakami prologue team?

I’m just not sure what i like and I’m still figuring out what’s good
This is what I’ve been able to come up with on my own but idk how i feel about it and idk to fix it https://pokepast.es/a44d65186db51582

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[fresh flicker]

Your team lacks Protect, literally on every mon.

[hollow plaza]

Very true

[fresh flicker]

Protect is a important move because it allows you defend and attack on one mon each.

[hollow plaza]

Did not notice that somehow thanks !!

[fresh flicker]

Swords Dance on Oger if you do find that opportunity, Belly drum Snorlax (however it's worthwhile to note snorlax requires support on trick room)

[hollow plaza]

Yeah i have snorlax cuz I’ve been running into a lot of trick room teams, i wasn’t really feeling making mine a trick room team tho

[wild sinew]

I don't really understand the 6 here, no synergy or go to plan, just 6 offensive mons without protect
I would suggest playing the Regulation E format with a pre existing team to get an idea of VGC in general, what works well together, what a team wants etc and this will help you building your kitakami team

[fresh flicker]

Cha is better as a support mon, so : Sinistcha @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Hospitality
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

• Matcha Gotcha
• Protect
• Rage Powder
• Trick Room

[hollow plaza]

Ngl i think my actual vgc team isn’t /horrible/ (I’m still v new so idk i might be wrong lmao) but sinistcha is the only kitakami mon i use so i have no clue how to make it work 😭

But yeah lemme try that sinistcha except swap out trick room cuz besides cha and snorlax i don’t think I’d benefit from that

Gonna give snorlax protect too
Think I’m gonna other than that w ogerpon having spiky shield?

[wild sinew]

I'd say most of them want Protect but most want to be replaced instead

[hollow plaza]

Wym like just swap what I’m using?

[wild sinew]

Yh, lack synergy between members

[hollow plaza]

Really the only things I actually like are fezandipiti w tailwind/taunt, sinistcha, and ogerpon. Maybe gliscor cuz earthquake w fez having flying Tera has been doing me good but i need to change him up a bit

Not really sure what to replace maushold/snorlax for, more support?

[distant stump]

you have no real synergy as others have said. Bulky defensive with snor, sinis and maus, but offensive with oger (Which is fine) and then idk what with gyscore and fezan

What goal do you want with the team, like bulky or more offensive and what mons you want to keep

[wanton abyss]

So my take on this team is…what does it do? What are you hoping to accomplish turn by turn? How do you win?

A team built with a vision or goal in mind has a better chance to achieve that goal

And if you’re just tossing mons together without understanding their role, then I think you should stop, take a step back, and ask yourself, “What do I want this team to do?”

[dawn elm]

https://pokepast.es/81b98e2d5c9175d7

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[dawn elm]

Thought snow had potential

[native knoll]

the team is very good but try to find a counter against ogerpon (fire) and tornadus because is very popular and your team is weak against it

[wanton abyss]

Your Heatran and Gholdengo matchups are sus at best! I do like the concept. Bax/A-Tales is dummy thicc, and Baxcalibur gets to abuse the loaded dice super duper well. I’m on Fez copium and I believe Tera Fire is the best way to run it right now on account of beating Firepon and still resisting Flutter

Also, same as above, torn firepon blasts you to smithereens esp without booster flutter or your own competing speed control

Another reason for Tera Fire Fez >:]

[north tree]

Firstly, the tera for ninetales should be water or ghost, ghost to reliably set up veil and water for the defensive value. Steel keeps your weakness to fire, and while a good defensive type, introduces weaknesses to fighting and ground, both of which will always be common offensive typings. Flutter mane with focus sash feels off on such a bulky team, try choice specs or special attack boosting booster energy to become strong while taking advantage of aurora veil. Protect > clear smog on Amoonguss, your dondozo matchup is completely fine and protect gives you more flexibility, especially since you have mental herb rather than rocky helmet or sitrus berry.

Fezandipiti wants a physically bulky spread as it's special defense is already incredibly high and you lack intimidate on the team to shore up it's physical bulk. I assume Ninetales-alola wants timid, I don't think you require this much speed on ninetales however, hitting 164 as a speed stat to outspeed urshifu or possibly 168 for chi-yu is the fastest you'd want to go. Baxcalibur has a slight waste of evs, 76spdef hits the same stat and you can get an extra def point by putting 4 into that stat.
Fezandipiti also wastes 4 evs by having 56 speed, 52 hits the same stat so 4 evs can be invested into defense even if you keep the same spread. Put the 4spa from Iron Hands into special defense, Iron hands is a physical attacker. Also remove tera blast for heavy slam as heavy slam removes flutter mane (tera grass is still a perfectly ok defensive type but fire might be better for this team).

[terse grove]

Hello I had made recently a team which consists of power up my pokemon stats with the snow climate.

https://pokepast.es/1ee9da7be58207a8

[lost phoenix]

snow teams are generally relegated to non ice types and the best ice types to abuse it are baxcalibur and iron bundle

veil is generally for setup spam stuff

make alolatales max speed to get veil up asap, make alolaslash a baxcalibur with loaded dice scale shot icicle spear high horsepower protect, replace froslass with a rillaboom

there r also prob better spreads for all these mons

[wanton abyss]

Your team has a small “fire type tears through you” problem

Weather teams need type diversity if they want to be viable imo

[hot wren]

I agree with everything Glimmer has said previously above, but as for the Ninetales-Alola specifically, Helping Hand is not nearly as beneficial as other utility moves on it since you typically are setting up with Aurora Veil to which when you have +2 Pokemon you don't need the Helping Hand boost tbh. I'd replace Helping Hand with Encore to threaten Encore's on previously used low power/utility moves allowing for further ease of setup. Protect on Ninetales-Alola is fine but I find it usually not necessary since little in the metagame can KO Ninetales-Alola outright. I'd personally replace protect with moonblast. As for the Ninetales spread I'd run these EV's https://pokepast.es/b764a85b07a77e9e

the speed allows you to outspeed 168 Ogerpon which is commonly used atm to outspeed 167 speed Chi-Yu's

the rest of the EV's are dumped in HP and spdef since defense is not necessary due to the snow boost, theres really nothing that can threaten to ohko you physically with max hp + snow

[hot wren]

agreed

[lost phoenix]

i kinda like blizz on alolatales but its personal pref atp

hm

smth interesting here could be

np chi yu

[hot wren]

yeah I was thinking Chi-Yu or Heatran could solve the fire type issue

although Ogerpon-fire does still kinda beat both

perhaps Dragonite?

[lost phoenix]

heatran kinda doesnt help vs hearthflame so i didnt want it

rmoon maybe.

[hot wren]

that too could work

[wanton abyss]

did someone say Roaring GOAT

[hot wren]

lol

[wanton abyss]

yeah moon is actually a p good pick to help with fires

beats Chi Yu outright, threatens Ogerpon and can force the tera, can even run breaking swipe if you’re built different and want to annoy someone

[hot wren]

mhm

[lost phoenix]

gimme a sec

im doing some evs

[wild sinew]

Fezandipiti isn't a bad pokemon generally but I think your team prefers Scarf Lando T
Makes your Steel weakness go from 4 to 3 while giving you an answer, Intimidate helps bulk the team and the speed control isn't needed when you can bulk through Opposing teams with Aurora Veil. It is also the best Ogerpon-Hearthflame check, who can pressure a lot of the team especially with the chance to crit through aurora veil
I also suggest pretty much everything Insertable has offered

[lost phoenix]

https://pokepast.es/4843d22f42fa8dae
shaymin sky mentioned the alolatales spread
roaring moon over sandslash alola gives you a chi yu and ogerpon answer. the speed invest is for ogerpon and you get attack protosynthesis while getting the most hp
rillaboom over froslass to give fake out support and grassy terrain recovery for the rest of your bulkier attackers, also gives another way to answer urshifu rapid
urshifu spread outspeeds max speed booster speed flutter when you are under tailwind
flutter mane survives one max attack urshifu wicked blow or surging strikes if the two dont have damage boosting items
tornadus being max speed is very valuable this format to outspeed and threaten every ogerpon

you can also run:
goggles or tera dark on tornadus
tera fire on rillaboom
tera grass on urshifu

[wild sinew]

Said pretty much everything, second on them

[lone lynx]

Hmmm why loaded dice on Moushold. Wide lense should be preferred here.

[shadow ibex]

I ended up just finding this team on falinks team builder but I'm not sure how good it really is

https://pokepast.es/dd1b152f6e8398ad

[dawn elm]

https://pokepast.es/65c46c5511f2e8c9 I added lando which I think helps against all of my problem match ups

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[austere wasp]

Team looks solid

I'd suggest swords dance over dragon dance

[wild sinew]

I second it

[austere wasp]

Because more attack and if you want speed boost just click scale shot!

Also helps vs intim shuffle

[dawn elm]

Good idea

[wild sinew]

Would still recommend Moon but Bax is fine

[wild sinew]

Pretty much Fedecampo's Worlds team, it's still good

[dawn elm]

You should maybe Use trick room on flutter and dragonite should have some EVs in HP

[wild sinew]

Yep
https://pokepast.es/b11fddfa92fc800a

[topaz edge]

https://pokepast.es/de896557cf76e2d0 Basic Idea is Sun team using Tornadus for Sunny day and hisui typholsion for Eruption specs. H-Liligant to support Typholsion. Fire-Ogerpon and amoonguss seemed like good fits for a sun team and iron hands to help cover for water types and Flutter but im open to swapping mons out for better picks.

[winter gulch]

Generally games don't last long enough for you to need 5 turns of sun (and its not worth the item slot)
Lilligant isn't hitting enough stuff super effectively to use Expert Belt well, I would go with Focus Sash
Specs Protect on Typhlosion is just not it
for your EVs, just use the sliders, you can't actually invest in 4 unique stats without wasting at least one stat point

[topaz edge]

I see. Ill tune those up. I think my biggest worry right now is having like 3 grass types and not having a huge answer to opposing fire types. Especially since ogerpon is so common now

[winter gulch]

personally I don't think you need Lilligant bc I don't think it hits the hardest

and you already have a good sun abuser in Typhlosion

[topaz edge]

Any ideas on what a good replacement would be?

[winter gulch]

I was thinking something like Flutter mane, or if you want more utility to hit fire types Landorus-Therian could be good

[topaz edge]

Hmm thats not a bad idea. I was thinking like roaring moon but yours sound like better options lol

[shadow ibex]

yeah I did say I found it online

[fathom token]

I updated my lurantis team: https://pokepast.es/2238643d4e095fa1
with the dlc, there's finally a mon with prankster and charm I can use
its not the perfect mon for this job, but it is the only one with this two things

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

Would probably not suggest Lurantis in general this format

[fathom token]

then the other possible option is enamorous

[wild sinew]

Why are you specifically interested in contrary?

[fathom token]

idk, its just the team idea

and I like the ability itself

it sounds neat

[wild sinew]

Main issue is that it's currently on bad pokemon

[fathom token]

enamorus is not bad

I'd say its solid

[wild sinew]

It's pretty much a D/F tier rn
Hugely invalidated by Flutter Mane

[fathom token]

but I think that with the right support, it can get to better place

[wild sinew]

Doubt
Your best bet though is Thundurus Enamorus with a good core of 4

[fathom token]

I've already seen enamorus + tornadus teams and they shred

w/tailwind (that Illumise can also learn)

and so on

okay, lets set this bet: I'll test the team in showdown, and if I don't get 5 wins before loosing twice, I'll admit that enamorus and contrary teams are not worth it in this meta

If I win, you have to admit enamorus is solid and it can work in such contrary team

deal?

[wild sinew]

I'll move this to towt vgc rq

[austere wasp]

Ill take it sure

Deal

I think contrary enaromus is bad, but if it works it works ; enaromus therian however can be legit in trick room teams

Contrary enaromus needs like some other prankster mon to like fake tears themselves etc etc

Takes too much time sometimes

[quaint phoenix]

Yoo

Any thoughts on this?

This is the best thing i could come up with

U set up screens, np w Moltres, Parting Shot into Hospitality or Intimedate

I do kinda need help with the Impoleon and Hands

I dont think that they rly work

The Impoleon is supposed to be a mane counter

It also has some synergy w trickroom on the sinitcha

the problem is that it is only able to ohko Non def Fluttermane

means it can only one shot boostermane

Can anyone come up w a replacement for Hands and impoleon

???

Ore mabey even some set inmprovements for some of the others?

I rly ran out off ideas

[fresh flicker]

PASTE

Use pokepaste.

[quaint phoenix]

uhh...

oops

give me a sec

[fresh flicker]

https://tenor.com/view/face-palm-gif-20569409

[quaint phoenix]

:(

[fresh flicker]

https://pokepast.es/8ca210532a99567e

There, so you wouldn't have to.

[quaint phoenix]

thanks

[fresh flicker]

@winter gulch

[fresh flicker]

@lost phoenix

[quaint phoenix]

Wrong channel

sv ou rates

Click on rate-my-team and scroll down

[fresh flicker]

Then ask #comp-general they should be able to asist.

Because here is not the place bud.

[quaint phoenix]

Soo @wild sinew pls help

[wild sinew]

do you have a paste?

[quaint phoenix]

wait

https://pokepast.es/730e9d7dfd4736e5

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[topaz edge]

https://pokepast.es/34beba873d7a312c Wanna try using an empoleon and ninetales/sinstcha leads for screens/trickroom and I wanna see if a bulkier urshifu is a worthwhile try. Roaring moon and arcanine are for when trick room is to cover for other trick room teams.

[wild sinew]

I'm not a believer in Goltress this format, Gholdengo is just better for the team
Run Matcha Gotcha and another item, one of the few reasons to run Sinistcha. Broken move
Tera Blast > Psychic Fangs, it doesn't really hit anything or do much damage.
Would probably suggest Ursaluna over Iron Hands here, w/ Swords Dance. More breaking power for the team

Not a fan of Screens Room in general but should work out

[wild sinew]

Probably want Yawn over Ice beam, so your presence isn't as pathetic when you don't have a boost
Make Alolan Ninetales Tera Water/Fire, fake out isn't a worry when you have access to Protect.
Would recommend dropping the Urshifu, stacks with Roaring Moon and AV on it is generally not good, consider Iron Hands in the slot. You could also replace Roaring Moon which is my preference, and going Swords Dance Urshifu.
Run protect on Roaring Moon if you're keeping it, over Dragon Claw.
Extreme speed is more valuable than Wild Charge, would also suggest Safety Goggles over Sitrus for a better Amoonguss mu.

[topaz edge]

My thoughts with urshifu is to allow it to be a tad bulkier and allow it to work under trick room alongside empoleon and sinistcha. Do you really think AV would be that bad of an item to run?

[wild sinew]

Yeah, really wants to protect when you have so many common weaknesses, esp Flutter
And being even more of a Tera hog isn't good

[topaz edge]

Gotcha

[topaz edge]

So then how about a 1:1 swap to an AV Iron hands with invesments into 252 Atk/92 Def/164 SpD?

[wild sinew]

Would suggest outright Max spd

But that's good yeah

[topaz edge]

https://pokepast.es/4d75d12cb08d4066 I think the tera types ive chosen are the best for these. Not 100% sure how well water H-Arcanine does

[wild sinew]

Grass/Fairy are my preferred Harc Teras

Ogerpon wants to click Wood Hammer into you anyway and being weak isn't very favourable

[calm trail]

https://pokepast.es/1abc451ae2831125
figured to try to get into the new meta, but I havent found myself using amoonguss or torkoal too much and wanted to see if I would be able to improve or slide in some new mons over them

[distant stump]

I would reccomend switching amoongus out

and maybe tork too

Amoong and Tork dont have very much synergy with the rest of your tean

With bramble, torn and lili you really want to be going offensive

[topaz edge]

https://pokepast.es/daefa768b1072209 Trick room team plus dragapult and rillaboom to cover for non trick room

[distant stump]

Bringing amoonguss or tork really slow down the pace of the game and dont really have synergy with the sun

You could use ninetales instead of tork if you want to keep liligant

If not, I'd recommend some other sun abusers like Typhlo, Chi yu, any of the paradox mons

[winter gulch]

Torkoal is fine if you do it right

[distant stump]

Same with amoonguss, you might want a water type or add a sun abuser

[winter gulch]

Specs Torkoal is too reliant on TR going up to actually be useful

[distant stump]

yeah for sure

[winter gulch]

Amoonguss is fine on HO, it does a lot and can really help you get going but yeah you do need to use it right

[distant stump]

Just it doesen't really fit with the fast pace of the team imo, might want osme bulk

I wouldent reccomend at least amoong there

Also lorb on flutter is usually a bad idea

[winter gulch]

as someone who uses Lorb on Flutter it can be good

you just need to be able to have good reasoning for using it over Specs or Booster

[distant stump]

Yeah

if you have specs occupied and are using sun

I could see it

but idk

[distant stump]

Problem here is that your team really wants to run in pairs

You dont want to bring bramble without torn, koal without lili, lili without koal/torn

If you bring lili koal

then bramble torn doesen';t work

[calm trail]

I did switch out torkoal for ogerpon hearthflame

[distant stump]

that leaves you little wiggle room

[calm trail]

I usually lead with torn bramble

with flutter/lilli/oger in the back

I never find myself bringing amoonguss

[distant stump]

bringing a raw lili is so weird

I mean if you add oger

[calm trail]

raw lili?

[distant stump]

Like no sun

I know you got manual but like

[calm trail]

torn sets up sun

[distant stump]

Yeah manual sun

Idk

Maybe a water type like scarfed urshifu though if you really like lili use it

[calm trail]

im trying to suit it to use ingame

and I dont have swsh dlc

[distant stump]

You can trade for it

Though I wouldent say Urshifu is really required

[calm trail]

everyone wants ogerpons and bloodmoon ursas for it on home gts

and people asking for impossible stuff

like a hisui arcanine that can move into swsh

and I just realised I have 4 grass types

so maybe I do have to swap out lilli

should I use shell smash drednaw

actually nah I got half a sun team

how is this

oh damn half my team is weak to rocks

maybe I put in breloom over ninetales

[topaz edge]

https://pokepast.es/07b42be7b1eea4d5 Just an attempt at a trick room team

[winter gulch]

you will almost never see rocks in Doubles VGC

[distant stump]

Yeah

rock is very rare

But still lando T rock slide might be trouble

I wouldent reccomend gliscor

Also dont run heat rock on tales

battles rarley last long enough. for it to make a difference

[calm trail]

rocks I meant rock types

not stealth rocks

[distant stump]

Ik

Still

Rock is kinda rare

[calm trail]

what do I replace gliscor

[distant stump]

Uhh

Depends

What do you want in that slot

[calm trail]

uhh

no clue

[distant stump]

Chi yu for damage, Lando for coverage and its pretty good, moon Is an option

[proud seal]

https://pokepast.es/6d2101d077dabd33

[calm trail]

3 move urshifu gamin

what 4th move on scarf lando

stompin, tera flying blast, rock slide and what

[distant stump]

U turn

[distant stump]

Choice specs politoed go hard

[calm trail]

https://pokepast.es/4b836acd739b8f0a

how is this

[distant stump]

Looks pretty good

Maybe some small changes

Like i'd reccomend protect instead of sap on bramble

and 252/252 calm is a bad torn set

[calm trail]

what ev's do I want on torn

[distant stump]

I'll send my set

Typhoon (Tornadus) @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 164 HP / 68 Def / 92 SpA / 68 SpD / 116 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

• Air Slash
• Tailwind
• Rain Dance
• Sunny Day

Heres what I use

Obv replace rain dance

[slate echo]

Hey, I have been playing around with the combo of heatran and bundle. Anyone got any advice for my team https://pokepast.es/67c285118d4d89d0

[distant stump]

For what?

How to use it?

[slate echo]

sorry accidently sent without finishing

[distant stump]

oh

I use a kinda similar combo

Speed booster flutter + fast lorb heatran

You spam icy wind and lower speeds so either tran can get the kills

or thye pivot out

Biggest part is baiting out the things tran is good into

For the rest I dont really like komoo

[slate echo]

yeah fair enough

I just liked it because I have redirection and duel screens

as well as intimidate support

[distant stump]

I just dont think komoo o is a very good mon

Its too easy to kill

and doesen't get much value

[slate echo]

yeah, plus you pretty much always have to tera with it

[distant stump]

Hey im back sorry

Yeah for sure its a big resource sink that doesen't get much value

[slate echo]

I was playing somem games with it

its not bad at all but does feel off

it feel like it meants some sort of fighting coverage

[distant stump]

yeah

I'd reccomend you try something like this

https://pokepast.es/0e57fa713fdc10a5

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[distant stump]

Ninetales has a lot more synergy with Bundle than grim

it takes less time to set up

and setting the snow is nice

Urshifu with scarf is really good with tales and bundle

It outspeeds everything, and with tera water kills so much stuff

your team was kinda lacking offense/a threat

[slate echo]

yeah I like that

sounds good

[distant stump]

Try it out

GL

[slate echo]

This is what I was using before I built that team

[distant stump]

Wait you already have scarf on lando

[slate echo]

I was using this and thought it was something original then I saw like a few days after playing with it someone was winning tornaments with it

[distant stump]

I guess you could run sitrus, clear amulet or av

[distant stump]

I wouldent really care if a team is original or not

its already pretty unique

[slate echo]

https://pokepast.es/d9093f28a4328edb

[distant stump]

and if you made it your own and dident just copy paste it its plenty fine

[slate echo]

sorry this is what I meant to send

[distant stump]

yeah

[slate echo]

I was building it last week, I was dming eevoen7 about it a decent amount

[distant stump]

Idk I think building around making something original is bad team building. I like using off meta stuff too but I dont use things because its off meta

but because I think its good or it has a nieche

[distant stump]

i see

[slate echo]

But yeah I completely agree

I have just gotten back into VGC after taking a massive break. I was about 1500-1600 when I use to play but that was back in series 1. Then I couldn't be bothered and got too busy with school and sport

So its been a learning curve with the meta and just remembering the fundamentals

I have gotten to about 1350-1450 consistently but not much past there

every now and then I get 1500 but not much

[distant stump]

Dont worry that much about it

There will always be times where you will drop in rank cuz of a break or just not that great play

take it as a chance to re learn the game

if you keep going at it you'll climb higher

sometimes a meta just isent good for you

[slate echo]

Thanks, appreciate it

I have been wanting to make a team in kinda the play style I use to play, but don't really remember what made them work. https://pokepast.es/578470b9a0c7280c https://pokepast.es/4eb962a2a0d429a5

these Are the teams I made and use to play a bunch

looking back probaly should of used tw instead of trick iron ball

but if you know any teams that are similar to this, it would be great if you could send them

[distant stump]

Np man

Second one kinda looks like balance?
So like strong offensive core with defensive options

I would have no clue though

[bold knoll]

https://pokepast.es/69c6c2a9d33b9f9b

Hey, I’d appreciate some advice! I was inspired by two things: a) wanting to use two of my fave mons (Milotic and Ninetales) since they seem good rn and b) and principles from an untitled rmt from black and white by muffinhead with gorgeous synergy (but whose details don’t rly transfer over well obviously)

[lost phoenix]

You have only one fire resist and thats kind of lost into chi yu and your fairy res is heatran which is not ideal, the main reason for milotic being good is coil hypnosis and the main alolatales set is light clay

I will post the revised version of this in a bit if no one else jumps on it

[bold knoll]

Ahh okay. I knew the main alolatales set was light clay— I just thought specs was kinda cool and different and surprising. I didn’t realize coil hypnosis was the main milo set tho.

I do like coil hypnosis tho! I vaguely remember that from gen8

[lost phoenix]

You also need a bit more cress killers and damage dealers in general

To abuse milo and ninetales

I like using roaring moon on snow

Gives you a counter to stuff like the ogerpons and chi yu while being a good mon that cant setup

[bold knoll]

https://pokepast.es/0bdb9336256d1115

This was an old version!

[bold knoll]

That makes sense

[lost phoenix]

This looks better although youre pretty ground weak and pao is unnecessary

Would like a rillaboom here i think

[bold knoll]

That makes sense

Milo likes grassy terrain too

[lost phoenix]

There should also be a better ninetales spread here that shayminsky posted

[bold knoll]

https://pokepast.es/adf2005c343fc0dc

[bold knoll]

Ohh okay I’ll look for it

Ooh would it be crazy to stick calm mind on cress in the last slot?

[lost phoenix]

Calm mind is a common option on this kinda cress team yes

[bold knoll]

Cool

[daring palm]

So i've been using this team since Regulation A.....but it seems to be doing pretty well in the current meta. Thoughts?

https://pokepast.es/4964716a9e569986

thoughts are there is fast mode and trick room mode, abomasnow or arboliva are usually my terra's but have used rotom to block fighting/normals on ocassion

[wild sinew]

The power level has risen to the point these are unviable picks in the current meta

[daring palm]

yet im still in ultra ball with it

each pokemon has like 3 synergies i can change out

[wild sinew]

It also seems to lack basic vgc things

[daring palm]

such as?

[wild sinew]

In particular protects

[daring palm]

my only stall is arboliva

who is my late game

[wild sinew]

Protects aren't really stall, moreso positioning as its a double battle

Widely perceived as the best move in the game (Excluding upgrades like spiky shield)

[proud seal]

https://pokepast.es/77ac9d056edd6e20

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[quaint phoenix]

Thx :D

[lone lynx]

im not an expert but web+tailwind seems a bit overkill

and then also scarf

[proud seal]

Yeah I was just testing that out to see how good it is
I didn't know what to give the iron moth so I just gave it a choice scarf

[lone lynx]

maybe specs

[wanton abyss]

Looks super frail, and I like the idea. Opposing Tailwind looks super annoying to beat for you, especially versus other Firepon/Torn/Flutter stuff

[wanton abyss]

I think you can afford to drop Icy Wind on this bundle. Your team isn’t particularly fast, so Encore might be better for forcing different situations

[slate echo]

Yeah, ok. I will try that as I only use icy wind in cases where I need a spread option or can make lando outspeed something once they set up tailwind

[proud seal]

Specs can definitely work

[lusty bolt]

Should I run AV intimidate overqwil, even if arcanine is on the same team with intimidate?

I just don't get much value from barb barrage, even with poison touch. But idk if having two intimidate users is redundant. https://pokepast.es/be6ae2823b40eb54

[wild sinew]

Main issue is using sub optimal and unviable pokemon, would recommend taking up a pre existing team to get an idea of the format and metagame

[sand minnow]

https://pokepast.es/1fd6e8c49359d889 any criticism is appreciated

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

Good team! Standard core without the need to change a lot

Icy Wind -> Protect on Tornadus and go Tera Ghost for better fake out counterplay. Not being able to get off Tailwind can really give you struggles
Would suggest replacing Alolatales, your team isn't Bulky enough for it and lacks set up, heavily favoured into the Tailwind mode. Flutter Mane is my shout as a consistent special attacker that doesn't overlap with the rest of your team
Ogerpon doesn't really make use of U Turn and would prefer to run Knock Off/Stomping Tantrum, both providing their own benefits
Give Chien Pao 12/4/4 bulk for favourable calcs against Urshifu, also if you're keeping Tera Dark, run Lash Out/Crunch over Sacred sword. You have Iron Hands and Urshifu which cover fighting well, and Chien Pao lacking stab means it won't do meaningful damage to most pokemon. Tera Ghost is also an option in the same set but I prefer dark's optional damage boost, picks up pokemon like Flutter Mane
Iron Hands should be Assault Vest and I assume Body Slam was Heavy Slam? And while it matters less, would recommend trying to hit 156 Atk for more damage, don't think you need to speed tie Ogerpon in TW anyway.
Close Combat is more optimal on Urshifu for the sheer output and I'd shout out detect. Probably aim for a bit more bulk, 44/4/4 is the minimum I'd go

[sand minnow]

I wasn't likin Alolatales the more i looked at it and im thinking abt switching it to smth else/IH Bodyslam was supposed to be heavy yea i just typed slam and picked the first thing/i chose drain punch over close combat simply cause i find a lot of the time they expect it and wait for the stat drop to capitalize on that so i wanted to switch it up to have a regen attack thats still stab and doesnt give me a nerf

[wild sinew]

Yh try Flutter in the slot

CC is just significantly stronger and picks up a lot more kos, even a non stab CC is stronger than drain punch to give you an idea. You just need to work on how to position around the drops and you're set

[topaz edge]

https://pokepast.es/4ebd68461adb1922 hard trick room team with grimmsnarl, flutter and arcanine for times when I can't use TR

[wild sinew]

EQ, Headlong Rush or even High Horsepower are better than Tantrum. The power is just not enough
I don't like Grimm Hoodra here and I think Urshifu-SS/Amoonguss + Iron Hands is just significantly stronger for Trick room, whether breaking through attempts to stall TR, Spore pressure and easing up the job on Cress, or being one of the best pokemon in the format, good in tr, and fake out to support cress

[topaz edge]

Do you have ideas for how I can insert Urshifu-SS in? i've thought its too fast to do well on TR teams but im interested in using it if possible.

[wild sinew]

Over Hoodra along with Iron Hands with a Focus Sash. The idea behind it is that people use protect to stall out trick room turns and it can pressure them not to. Take a look at Fedecampo's Top 4 worlds team to get a better idea

[topaz edge]

Gotcha. Tho can you explain why Iron hands over amoon if i use urshifu?

[wild sinew]

Just a generally better pokemon this format

[topaz edge]

Oh ok. I guess that makes sense with all the ogerpons running around

[misty rose]

is there vgc coaching available on smog forums i feel like i am way too ass at this

[lost phoenix]

https://pokepast.es/eb1e576b1786ae3f ive been using this for a while, any other nitpicks?

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[lost phoenix]

jello also used it finally so i can leak it

[misty rose]

What are the evs on flutter for

[wild sinew]

Prob using Showdown sliders as Lvl 50 is different
What's the impish Rilla supposed to live

[lost phoenix]

ursa facade

[lost phoenix]

ohkos ursa in grassy terrain with energy ball and outspeeds torn maximizes special bulk while living some attack from pao idr

[wild sinew]

Yh you live Spinner with that

[lost phoenix]

might change chi yu item but the def boost is rly useful

gets it to live 252 adamant lando stomping

[wild sinew]

It is a good 6
Bulkier herb Tornadus is better here imo

[lost phoenix]

tr mu has been scary and i like fast torn this format bcz of ogerpon

[wild sinew]

2.5 Spore immunities, 1 with follow me along with the option of Taunt

[lost phoenix]

ig mental herb is fine

but i like max speed

for ogerpon purposes

[wild sinew]

Which tr mu btw?
Team feels fine into most things

[lost phoenix]

gambit tr specifically

[wild sinew]

As in with Cress + Fake Out or smth?

[lost phoenix]

yeah

its fine just rly rly iffy

yawn gastro was added due to the zapdos and tr mu actually

[wild sinew]

Rilla + Flutter feels good there
Fake Out let's you hit cress with 3 bonks and a 3v3 vs a Trick room team without trick room isn't as challenging

[lost phoenix]

i suppose

i usually lead that or gastro chi yu

[wild sinew]

Yh yawn is also helpful

[lost phoenix]

gastro chi yu rilla cornerstone/torn back

[wild sinew]

Feel like impish Rilla is too big of a commitment

[lost phoenix]

could do max max

this just makes me feel safe

oh i could do

7 speed iv gastro

to underspeed ursaluna in tr

a consideration.

[wild sinew]

I think that's a better idea

[lost phoenix]

https://pokepast.es/c6e64df144ba0fc2

252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Rillaboom: 97-115 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

[lone lynx]

that’s why I run poison jab as a niche move

[wild sinew]

Poison Jab: 80 x 2 (super effective) = 160
Close Combat: 120 x 1.5 (STAB) = 180

[wanton abyss]

^^^

important calcs

[distant stump]

People always forget about stab

[spiral shale]

no

all the good coaches charge

[digital sierra]

this team is comin from a BSS player so it may be at a bit odd https://pokepast.es/74783cb7c1dd51c8

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[austere wasp]

Thats standard!

And is quite good the only odd thing was the sludge bomb but it can make sense

[hot wren]

the main things that are not making sense here on this team are the tera's I'd say. Your flutter mane should honestly be tera water, fairy, fire personally I like water here since you already have immediate power with so many other members so fairy isn't as needed and the water allows you to resist surging strikes which is nice in situations where weather is not up and without sun you sorta get owned besides tera on your armarouge.

Bloodmoon, you should just be tera ghost as atm it is just the best tera for it...the other competition is like fairy which i find the hard fighting immunity to be way more impactful, there is grass and normal but i think ghost is still better in this situation and adds to added shifu repellant.

Indeedee should just be tera fairy, not sure why its psychic fairy is just the best all round typing that avoids common SE moves which is the only way to kill indeedee really besides a dual target

torkoal and armarouge tera are fine

you definitely should be heat wave over sludge bomb imo on torkoal, and atleast go charkoal since locking in 1 move with torkoal is just extremely commital on an otherwise strong pokemon when counting its coverage

Lastly I'd consider wide guard on armarouge > energy ball 100%, you have 0 ground immunity and EQ or just general spread + hitting ur tr mon can kinda just ruin you. there is also not much water types you need to hit with energy ball that dont just drop to expanding force in terrain anyways.

hope this helps!

[slate echo]

@hot wren https://pokepast.es/176bda440dccf320, I have been testing this team, and it feels good. It was kinda weird using at the beginning but I have gotten to about 1450-1350 with it. But I was just wondering is there anything I should change. I have been considering using Tera fire sinestia instead of amoonguss as the main thing I like about amoonguss is it’s fairy resist and fighting resist. But by changing it to sinicha I think I would be able to change heatran to Tera fairy as I won’t need the grass coverage and have better options against iron hands

As iron hands is probably the hardest thing to deal with

But spore is nice on amoonguss so I could go either way

It just feel like it’s lacking reliable healing for kommo-o, even with pollen puff

[lost phoenix]

looks kinda slow for a screens team ill be real

you have 1 strong attacker aside from your setup sweeper

[slate echo]

Yeah tru

Most of the time I end up winning because my bundle, lando and or kimmo-o weakens them enough for Tran to win

[hot wren]

on this team I'd go with sinistcha>amoonguss for the hospitality, ofc the main issue with going sinistcha is that darkshifu can kinda tear through the team easier compared to tera fairy amoonguss but tbh bringing darkshifu vs a kommo-o screens team is kinda troll, and you can threaten shifu easily with scarf lando/grimm/kommo as is so i think going sinistcha is worth. The real main issue I have with your team is just lack of any immediate power, like if u cant sweep with kommo-o you just kinda have to "give up" . This is kinda what happens to like every single grimmsnarl team and they kinda just have to own it...a possible option is to remove rilla/sinis entirely and go av rilla and lo>av on heatran

that can fix your damage issue

but ofc ud prob have to replace lando/iron bundle if u do that

(this is why im not a fan of grimmsnarl teams xd) the issue is tough to solve but i think going lo tran and av rilla for added damage is the first step

[toxic socket]

bundle: fast ice type
grimm: screens

alolan ninetales:

food for thought

[slate echo]

yeah ok makes sense

I don't really know a set for rilla and lo tran, could you please sne one

also i did try an alolan ninetails version but it isn't as fun to use because I like kommo-o https://pokepast.es/ab9fe1c512839bef

[toxic socket]

why didnt you use both

[slate echo]

because without grim my only physical damage dealer is lando

[toxic socket]

im not sure if i wouldnt count grimm as a physical attacker

4 Atk Grimmsnarl Spirit Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 81-96 (62.3 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

[slate echo]

yeah, idk

[toxic socket]

im not sure if the bundle does a lot, big picture

lando is scarf, kommo is boosting, and heatran realistically isnt outspeeding anything relevant at less than +2

obviously it has huge damage

[wild sinew]

Support everything Slainey has said! Keep in mind to slot in protect on Torkoal as you're not Specs anymore.
Also I'd say you should outright replace Bloodmoon for Regular Ursaluna, your team, and in particular your Trick room mode, is very special reliant. Ursaluna gives in diversity, and while it lacks reliable hyper voice spread, you have Expanding Force and Eruption/Heat Wave and don't exactly need any more. The significantly extra power, spammable Facade, Amoongus immunity and more are all appreciated and just make it more consistent. Tera Ghost is just as good on it!

[wild sinew]

I personally think the Strongest way to play Kommo-o is to drop screens, feels a bit too passive and makes it hard to quickly make progress when you can't set up, as Slainey said.
I support Sinistcha > Amoonguss on Kommo-o teams and would suggest Grimmsnarl -> Iron Hands. Fake Out paired with redirection and intimidate makes setting up easy enough, you only need one pokemon to set up so you don't need the dedicated screens and would benefit more from an offensive support like Iron Hands. Notably go Tera Ice/Ghost Iron Bundle and make the Heatran Tera Fairy yeah

[lone lynx]

wait true

and it’s not worth running Tera poison

nvm then

[cunning torrent]

https://pokepast.es/9464cd41293d8ee8
semi trick room team, any suggestions?

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[distant stump]

I dont see

why you wouldent run regular ursa there

Theres a lot of stuff lets start from the top

Sinis rarley gets ohko'd

your already investing in bulk

[north tree]

Why sash cha when you have bulk?

[distant stump]

no need for sash

Run sitrus

im not a big fan of shadow ball i think rage powder is better

[north tree]

Chiyu is better than iron moth

[distant stump]

you really want lunar blessing

on cress

yeah Chi yu is just better there

[north tree]

Waiting for leo to finish the essay

[distant stump]

Lmao

lets see what they write

[cunning torrent]

lol

thanks guys

[distant stump]

np we gotchu

[north tree]

^

Also leo you may want to use something called paragraphs

Very useful

[distant stump]

Details details

[wild sinew]

Go quite Ursaluna with Protect over Moonblast, though I'll note, Swords Dance Regular is stronger here

Sinistcha is better as an Amoonguss for consistent redirection to help Cress and apply Spore pressure. Fast Pollen Puffs can be clutch here, especially with set up Ursaluna.

Iron Hands would prefer Adamant, better outside of trick room which your team isn't reliant on it, having a clear fast mode

Make Cresselia Tera Fairy with Safety Goggles, wants it because it can heal its teemmates from sleep

Remove Iron Moth and give Booster Energy to Flutter Mane, keeps the fast option while having access to Protect for when it's brought lategame and the last turn of trick room.

Specs Chi-Yu is indeed just better Iron Moth here but I also like Choice Band Dragonite, Ogerpon-Hearthflame or Focus Sash Urshifu-SS. Flexible final flot that you'd want to leave for a relatively fast Nuke

There paragraphs!

[distant stump]

Based paragraphs

[north tree]

Makes it look so much better

[distant stump]

Agreed with basically everything there

[north tree]

^

[cunning torrent]

thanks for the help!

[wild sinew]

You're welcome, feel free to ask me whenever you need something

[north tree]

I think sinistcha is still fine

[distant stump]

Yeah its personal choice

also just a tip

set your format

to regulation e

it auto sets everything to lvl 50

and shows you the mons available

[wild sinew]

If you want to keep sinis prob give it rage powder
Though it's harder to pilot and I'd rather suggest something easier for most people unless I know that they know what they're doing

[north tree]

Fair enough

[distant stump]

https://pokepast.es/11cf04a3b544f2d4

I made a quick mock up of what you could do

with sets I had lying around

[cunning torrent]

https://pokepast.es/f4dede0dee02aa6a
fells way more solid now, just not sure about cresselia.

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

Wasting EVs on Sinistcha, move SpA EVs to SpD and make SpA 36 Modest.
Adamant Iron Hands
Run at least 68/116 bulk on your Flutter Mane, with Icy wind over Mystical fire if you're Booster speed. Tera Fairy ideally
Protect > Play Rough on Hearthflame

[wanton abyss]

I disagree with the Mystical Fire choice on Flutter Mane. You’re not clicking mystical fire into anything really worth