#Steam Workshop

19 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

molten gate
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I started this in #general, when most likely is should have been more persistent here.

So now I'm making amends.

My Original question was:

I've come to realize that when I ask a question, I nitpick whoever answers to death or frustration. Not intentionally, but that's just how it shakes out.

But now I have to ask: Changing the UI? At the very least, that'd be a major modification to the source code of the game, which in turn would involve a number of steps that would involve others to make alterations to the game that could affect it in significant ways and preclude future game updates from installing?

Is the UI such a challenge or impediment or whatever the word it that people would be incentivized to change it?

If that's the sole raison d'être for the Workshop, that's a pretty convincing argument to NOT implement it, IMHO.
I have looked at this article (and video) and it makes installing mods seem super-simple.
https://www.pcguide.com/how-to/steam-workshop/

I got some responses as follows in the next post.

PC Guide
The Steam Workshop - What It Is and How To Use It

Steam Workshop is a revolutionary service that allows players to create, share, and play mods on their favorite games. It's the ultimate way to customize games.

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Fire added:

I don't know how the menus are coded, but what I am wondering is would a workshop item be capable of changing the blue aesthetic of CW4 to green? Could it change the order of Struct/Weapon/Air/Special/Custom or possibly reorganise units within? Put the minimap top right, build menu bottom left, etc? Replace some of the buttons with custom image files? It isn't about the UI being an impediment, but some players just want to organise the UI to what they are used to from other games.
I will also be clear that no workshop item should change gameplay, I don't want to have to play a map for an hour before realising the map was done with some mod that adds a super-cannon or something. I don't know if UI changes can be allowed while preventing gameplay changes without going by a whitelist system for workshop mods.

And further clarified the UI question:

I don't know how the menus are coded, but what I am wondering is would a workshop item be capable of changing the blue aesthetic of CW4 to green? Could it change the order of Struct/Weapon/Air/Special/Custom or possibly reorganise units within? Put the minimap top right, build menu bottom left, etc? Replace some of the buttons with custom image files? It isn't about the UI being an impediment, but some players just want to organise the UI to what they are used to from other games.
I will also be clear that no workshop item should change gameplay, I don't want to have to play a map for an hour before realising the map was done with some mod that adds a super-cannon or something. I don't know if UI changes can be allowed while preventing gameplay changes without going by a whitelist system for workshop mods.

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Grabz added:

in my experience workshop mods are generally used to add extra content, and not mod a game in special ways. e.g. here's first example i could think of, stronghold crusader 2, where workshop is used solely for custom skirmish maps:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/232890/workshop/
in a KC game, i would envision workshop to be used for sharing ready-to-use CPACKs, and in game when you go to editor and import a CPACK to a map, you would have an option to pick a CPACK from the list of CPACKs subscribed in the workshop
this means CPACK authors could update their CPACKs in the workshop and any subscribers would always have the most updated version to choose for their map
this also has the benefit that users with no access to workshop (e.g. game not released on steam) could still import raw file CPACKs as opposed to choosing a ready made CPACK from their subscribed workshop items

Steam Community :: Stronghold Crusader 2

Stronghold Crusader 2

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Any additional insight into how useful Steam Workshop will be for a future Knuckle Cracker game would be appreciated.

languid hill
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Here is a input from me, although I have not read the glorious wall of detailed text, I have seen some cause and effect.
Steam workshop is a very capable in drawing attention to itself and is a very user friendly place people are familiar with. Many games use it actively for modding and such there is very likely a large number of people on steam who would look to the steam workshop for user content of the game they play.

As someone who is one of those people, this would make accessing CPACKs to download onto maps FAR more immediately accessible for people that are shy from going to effectively "third party cites" though I use this term loosely. Once I found the forums I was able to get used to it quickly but there is really nothing on there and I believe that is because, players/modders of CW4 and the series in general are unaware of its existence.

In order words, visiting the forums and GitHub for things related to the CW series and more importantly, user content would be a foreign concept to a vast majority who are spoiled by the convenience of organized things like steam (which may not be a necessarily bad thing). Game is sold on steam, things about that game are also on steam.

Hopefully, me not reading K75's article doesn't mean I am absolutely misinterpreting the topic and have typed all of this for nothing.

wet gate
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I think I misread the question a bit on first reading; how exactly would CPACKs interact with this?
Adding onto what Vertu said, you could have workshop elements for CPACKs, and when you are in the editor (or IXE equivalent) you can apply those CPACKs just as if you imported them from a map export. The ability to arbitrarily add CPACKs to maps has to prevent submitting scores for obvious reasons, other than that I don't see an issue with having CPACKs on the workshop.
I think you would still need the CPACKs to come with custom maps in game instead of downloaded from the workshop. CPACKs requiring downloading mods from the workshop I think is a much worse system than the mods getting packaged with the maps.

Then you have workshop content for adding new content; can KC limit these to just UI changes that don't affect gameplay? If not then mods of this type might need to be on some kind of whitelist, and that sounds like a lot of effort. New UI and menu options would be nice, but wouldn't be worth the effort on their own. This is in part because I don't think very many mods for this would become available.

So basically, there would have to be 2 kinds of mods; firstly those that change the UI elements, and those that add CPACKs to a menu in game. This brings me to the question: how would the workshop improve the game when compared to CPACKs.
Importing and Exporting CPACKs can already be done in game; the workshop would be better to search for specific CPACKs and would automatically give mapmakers up to date information. I also agree with Vertu that players would prefer CPACKs on Steam instead of external sites if the updated CPACKs aren't attached to maps.
I don't know how much work it would be to set all this up; but honestly I don't think it would make that much of a difference to the game.

I hope I understood the question properly this time.

mighty cobalt
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I think you would still need the CPACKs to come with custom maps in game instead of downloaded from the workshop. CPACKs requiring downloading mods from the workshop I think is a much worse system than the mods getting packaged with the maps.
yes absolutely cpacks would still be packaged with maps, the cpack workshop idea is literally just an alternate method of importing a cpack, where instead of choosing a file on your computer you get to pick from one of your subscribed items

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personally, i do not see any other feasible use for workshop in typical KC games. KC has got every other required system already covered with knucklecracker.com APIs

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i don't understand your UI suggestions either. workshop is not a magic modding API. it's just a method of putting some files on your computer, and have them auto update. for changes like you ask, KC would have to create his own modding API, then have workshop items somehow interact with it

wet gate
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Yeah, that is why I didn't think that alone would be a good enough reason to add it but wasn't sure how much effort it would be to implement.

mighty cobalt
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take Euro Truck Simulator for example:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/227300/workshop/
this game supports all kinds of mods - models, sounds, traffic, logic, reskins, etc.
to install a mod, you simply download the appropriate *.scs file and slot it in a mod directory in Documents, and the game will load it in.
i've not modded this game before, but since this game supports mods natively, i presume internally there is a modding API or hooks that people can use to access all of those parts of the game.
now how does this work through workshop? when you subscribe to a workshop item, then launch the game, the game will quickly look through all subscribed items looking for missing files/updates, then slot those into the Steam\steamapps\workshop\content folder
in similar fashion to the previously mentioned mod directory in Documents, the game then reads through this directory and applying the mods.
so in essence workshop is just a way to download mod files that the game then has to read, and it provides the user with automatic updates.

//
as for some things K75 originally asked

Can we exercise control and moderation over the workshop content?
yes, from what i see you get the same options you get when moderating forums, see here under Moderating Screenshots, Videos, and Workshop Items:
https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/marketing/community_moderation
Would it be suitable for what in CW4 are contained in CPACKs? Would it support custom maps? both?
as me and Vertu pointed out, CPACKs seem like a perfect candidate as CPACK distribution is one system KC has not provided us a service for.
as for custom maps... let's see some pros and cons, probably wont think of all of them but:
pros:

  • mapmakers have full control over altering their maps
  • mapmakers can receive feedback about their maps without users requiring a forum account
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cons:

  • mapmakers can permanently delete their maps
  • an external system handling maps may make it much harder to keep track of leaderboards (e.g. a GUID system would delete everyone's scores on KC server each time a map updates in the workshop)
  • choosing maps to play may be significantly more cumbersome through an external interface

for CPACKs, i think this could be very good, and could even be rolled into CW4 if you wanted to take a week off to try out the workshop's viability, as it doesn't sound like it'd be that difficult at all (that said i have not set up a workshop for a game before so i could very well be wrong about the difficulty of implementation). of course it'd only be for Steam users, but other users can still import CPACKs the old fashioned way by getting them from forums or ripping them out of existing maps.
for maps, it might be worth investigating, but i don't think workshop will be superior to KC's existing infrastructure

wicked prism
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Every custom map in colonies with cpacks is basically a unique mod pack. If you mod another game on steam with a mod pack, you only have that mod pack active until you remove it and manually install another one. The cpack custom maps is a superior modding system for content since you can play different modpack after modpack without having to jump through any hoops. I've lost count of how many times I've fully reinstalled skyrim to start from a clean install with mods.

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for ui modding: it depends on how the developer packaged his game. If the necessary settings files are readable in hex or just plain text with identifiable variables, then it's easy to make a modded file to replace the original. You can then use steam workshop to share your modification. But if the game is just one giant compiled file, then you won't be able to do anything.

wicked prism
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"not able to anything when compiled" is incorrect, there's apparently plenty of tools available to mod unity games, some even while they're running. Imo still not worth the effort when the game has this much mod support already built in.

lone musk
lone musk
mighty cobalt
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it's so simple it's almost silly, yet would be extremely handy for mapmaking