musical instruments

[hoary gulch]

Salam alaikum, I always wanted to learn the piano, but I'm not sure if it is permissible in Islam. And if it isn't permissible, what is the sin/punishment for it? Thanks if anyone responds

[lunar ledge]

walaikum as salam, it will depend on who you ask and which school/scholar you ask. i would recommend consulting a local imam first and foremost. then (if you are not an adult) i would consult your muslim parents and see what they know. then if you would still like more answers i can go and proceed to try

[hoary gulch]

Also I'm Sunni Muslim before anyone misconceives or anything, I don't identify myself further than quran, sunnah and hadith. Very easy to misinterpret aqeedah and not even be a Muslim with this sect dichotomy

[lunar ledge]

so you interpret everything yourself?

this is just to clarify, its hard to convey appropriate mood just through text. not trying to be accusatory!

[flat blade]

Sahīh al-Bukhārī

The one who regards an alcoholic drink lawful to drink, and calls it by another name

Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari: that he heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments, as lawful. And there will be some people who will stay near the side of a mountain and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, 'Return to us tomorrow.' Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection."

Reference: Sahīh al-Bukhārī 5590

[median ruin]

This is a hadith I found on the case of musical instruments

[lunar ledge]

ah well, if you truly want to go down this rabbithole with the proper preparation:

Aisha reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, came to my house when two girls were beside me singing songs of Bu’ath. The Prophet laid down and turned his face to the other side. Then, Abu Bakr came in and spoke to me harshly, saying, “Musical instruments of Satan near the Prophet?” The Prophet turned his face toward him and he said, “Leave them alone.” When Abu Bakr became inattentive, I signaled to the girls and they left. It was the day of Eid and the Abyssinians were playing with shields and spears. Either I asked the Prophet or he asked me whether I would like to watch and I said yes. Then the Prophet made me stand behind him while my cheek was touching his cheek and the Prophet was saying, “Carry on, O tribe of Arfidah.” I became tired and the Prophet asked me, “Are you satisfied?” I said yes, so I left.
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 949, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 892
Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim
https://www.abuaminaelias.com/dailyhadithonline/2012/08/12/aisha-sing-play-eid/

[median ruin]

He asked about musical instruments not singing. And I used a Hadith from Sahih Al-Bukhari

[lunar ledge]

wait wait im copying and pasting from #islam-faq since we once again broach this topic

In another narration, the Prophet said:
Leave them Abu Bakr. Verily, for every people there is a celebration and this day is our celebration.
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 3931, Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi

Al-Ghazali derived from these narrations the following points, writing:
All of these traditions are reported in the two authentic books, Al-Bukhari and Muslim, and they demonstrate that singing and playing is not unlawful. From them we may deduce the following lessons. First, it is permissible to play as the Abyssinians were in the habit of dancing and playing. Second, it is permissible to do this in the mosque. Third, the Prophet’s saying to Arfidah was a command and a request that they should play, so how then can playing be considered unlawful? Fourth, the Prophet prevented Abu Bakr and Umar from interrupting and scolding the players and singers, and he told Abu Bakr that this festival was a joyous occasion and that singing was a means on enjoyment. Fifth, on both occasions he stayed for a long time with Aisha, letting her watch the show of the Abyssinians and listening with her to the girls singing. This proves that it is better to be good-humored in pleasing women and children with games than to disapprove of such amusements out of a sense of harsh piety and asceticism. Sixth, the Prophet encouraged Aisha by asking her if she would like to watch. Seventh, singing and playing with the drum is permissible.
Source: Iḥyā’ Ulūm al-Dīn 2/278

Permission to play, sing, and enjoy amusement on the days of Eid is due to the flexible, lenient, and moderate nature of Islam. In fact, the Prophet specifically wanted the Jews to witness the Muslims enjoying the days of Eid so that they could see the virtues of Islamic legislation, as many of them endured harsher prohibitions in their own religion.

Aisha reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, placed my chin on his shoulder so I could look at the Abyssinians until I felt tired and turned away from them. The Prophet said:
That the Jews may know that there is flexibility in our religion. Verily, I have been sent with an upright, lenient religion.
Source: Musnad Aḥmad 24584, Grade: Sahih

and then for further reading:
https://web.archive.org/web/20220702110731/https://islamictextinstitute.co.za/music-azhar-fatwa/
https://web.archive.org/web/20220302223339/https://islamictextinstitute.co.za/on-music-and-singing-fatwa-by-shaykh-yusuf-al-qaradawi/

as you will see if you read Sheikh al-Qaradawi's position, there is a common criticism levied against the hadith you cited in Sahih al-Bukhari. Namely, there are key errors in the chain of narration. It cannot be directly traced to the Prophet (S)

Although this hadith is in Sahih Al-Bukhari, its chain of transmission is not connected to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) and this invalidates its authenticity. Ibn Hazm [of the now extinct Zahiri school of thought -Link] rejects it for that very reason. Moreover, the sub-narrator, Hisham Ibn `Ammar is declared ‘weak’ by many scholars of the Science of Hadith Methodology.

Besides, this hadith does not clearly prohibit the use of musical instruments, for the phrase ‘consider as lawful,’ according to Ibn Al-`Arabi, has two distinct meanings:

First : Such people think all these (the things mentioned) are lawful.

Second : They exceed the proper limits that should be observed in using these instruments. If the first meaning is intended, such people would be thus disbelievers.

In fact, the hadith in hand dispraises the manners of a group of people who indulge themselves in luxuries, drinking alcohol and listening to music. Therefore, Ibn Majah narrates this hadith from Abu Malik Al-Ash`ari in the following wording: “From among my followers there will be some people who will drink wine, giving it other names while they listen to musical instruments and the singing of female singers; Allah the Almighty will make the earth swallow them and will turn them into monkeys and pigs.” (Reported by Ibn Hibban in his Sahih )

[median ruin]

I mean again ur saying the Prophet (S.A.W.) allows singing and using a specific drum rather than the musical instrument the OP us asking about which is the piano. Also he is talking about using it any day rather than a special holiday like Eid

Also I wasn’t really looking for an debate or argument but rather just to state a Hadith I found

[lunar ledge]

brother, shall i copy and paste the entire paper to each of your points rather than have you read them yourself? they address your concerns specifically. Again:

"Whenever the jurists have ruled the use of some musical instruments to be allowed while prohibiting others [the concern that you brought up first], it is because the prohibited instruments have always been used to incite the listener to engage in immoral behaviour. This does not mean that the instrument itself is haram. We see this clearly in the way the Hanafi, Shafii, and Hanbali jurists as well as the Maliki scholar Ibn Arabi have explained their positions that musical instruments should not be accompanied by immoral acts and vices.

Thus, after a detailed and thorough study of all the evidence for and against music, the author of the book al-Sama (listening) Muhammad Ibn Tahir Ibn Ali Ibn Ahmad Ibn Abi al-Hasan al-Shaybani Abu al-Fadl al-Maqdisi well-known as Ibn al-Qaysarani a great expert in the field of hadith declared ***__that there is no difference at all between listening to one type of instrument or another __***since there exist no single textual evidence, whether authentic or inauthentic, for or against the use of instruments." (from the first link)

In a tradition recorded by Muslim in his Sahih on the authority of Abu Said al-Khudri, the Prophet said: Beware of sitting by roadsides! The companions then responded saying, O Prophet of God! We do not do any harm apart from just talking important matters. The Prophet then said, if at all you must sit by the roadside then make sure that you give the street its right. They asked him, what is the right of the street/road O messenger of God? Lowering your gaze, removing harmful objects from the street, returning salam (greetings) to those who pass by, and enjoining good while prohibiting from evil (see Sharh al-sunna of al-Baghawi, 12/3338). From this tradition we can deduce that sometimes lawful acts can become prohibited when they are accompanied or associated with immoral and haram behaviour. In such cases the prohibition (hurma) will be contingent upon the existence of such immoral and haram behaviour. In other words, it will not be a purely independent and original ruling.

Thus, adopting the middle ground in such cases in the best position (see al-Muwafaqat of al-Shatibi, vol.4, p.258). For this reason, we are in favour of the ruling that listening to music, attending musical gatherings, studying music of all genres and all types of instruments is allowed as long as it is not accompanied by immoral and haram acts, or used as a tool to incite people to engage in sinful behaviour, and it does not preoccupy a person away from observing the obligatory acts of worship as stated in the chapters of al-Bukhari (see Irshad al-Sari, vol. 2, p.171, the marginal notes of Sahih Muslim). In such cases, it will become haram just like sitting on the side of the road without observing the rights of the road mentioned in the hadith.

Additionally, in regards to the second point, it is only logical that haram things remain haram no matter the time or event. Thus, if music, instruments, singing, and the like are haram, it would not be logical for a haram thing to become permissible on such a celebration... there is no basis in Islam for that position. There is nothing in Islam which, when Haram, has an exception that becomes halal. So it renders the second point illogical all on its own.

[crimson bronze]

I'mma read this later, but this is the good discourse needed

[lunar ledge]

rather, I persistently disagree with you because you continually decide to use the hadith, despite the criticisms levied against it, and do not use the scholarly discourse available on that hadith. this paints a one-sided view of the issue, which, again, i will always disagree with. It's also telling that in the time since our first discussion, I have had to reuse the same sources, which is frustrating because I believed we both only wanted to learn more about the issue, not push a narrative. Having read as much as I can about the issue from scholars I trust, I have arrived at my position that "most music is halal, while some is haram," and others can disagree if they so wish. But, if they disagree and base that disagreement on ignorance, I will always push against it

[lunar ledge]

read the papers, they are better than the excerpts of course

perhaps in the future we should just share this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_music
since it encompasses both our points well enough

which was a link you shared initially

[lunar ledge]

https://www.abuaminaelias.com/manners-etiquette-and-traditions-of-eid/

this is also good btw

[median ruin]

As I sated I wasn’t looking for a debate to bring up scholars who disagree and agree with the Hadith.

[wary tusk]

I think it's dangerous to look at just the translation of a hadith without putting it in the appropriate context, so I would always try and see what scholars have interpreted in regards to an issue beyond just the text of the hadith. After all, the default position is that things are halal until proven haram.

@median ruin Please watch these videos when you can: #muslim-media message

[lunar ledge]

thank you for the reminder brother. i completely forgot about those videos as well.

[median ruin]

I agree with how something is halal until proven haram. But humans were first mainly introduced to musical instruments because of Ibliss, I believe it was the flute that he had created. And so we shouldn't use the flute since it is a devil instrument as it directly came from him.

Also this website talks about a few famous scholars who approved of the Bukhari hadith to be sahih
https://hadithanswers.com/challenging-the-authenticity-of-a-hadith-in-bukhari/#:~:text=Hafiz Ibn Hajar (rahimahullah) writes that Imam Bukhari,declared authentic (sahih) by Imam Ibn Hibban (rahimahullah)

There is a small article within the website that goes over some evidence for the prohibition of musical instruments. But a lot of it is interpreting the verses from Qur'an

[crimson bronze]

how contrived.

[wary tusk]

Sorry bro, but your claim is not daleel. Do better. You're gonna be held accountable for the things you say, I wouldn't just toss things out there as conjecture. That's very dangerous.

[lunar ledge]

it wasnt just ibn hazm- brother, READ the papers please Sheikh Qaradawi mentions:

Al-Qadi Abu Bakr Ibn Al-Arabi; The same view is maintained by Al-Ghazali and Ibn An-Nahwi in Al-`Umdah . Ibn Tahir says, “Not even a single letter from all these Hadiths was proved to be authentic.”
Then he says students of Imam Malik, Imam Ahmad, Imam Shafii all disputed this hadith as well! Compare this to the linked article, which says "The Hadith Masters" and yet really only lists two truly great scholars who disagree (Ibn Hajar and Ibn Hibban, though I mean no disrespect to Ibn Salah and Allamah Ayni though I am not familiar with them)

[lunar ledge]

i think sheikh qaradawi puts it quite succinctly in his paper:

To conclude, we address the respectful scholars who tackle the word “haram” easily and set it free in their writings and fatwas that they should observe that Allah is watching over them in all that they say or do. They should also know that this word “ haram ” is very dangerous. It means that Allah’s Punishment is due on a certain act or saying, and should not be based upon guessing, whims, weak Hadiths, not even through an old book. It has to be supported by a clear, well-established text or valid consensus. If these last two are not found, then we revert the given act or saying to the original rule: “permissibility governing things”. We do have a good example to follow from one of our earlier pious scholars. Imam Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) who said: “It was not the habit of those who preceded us, the early pious Muslims, who set good example for the following generations, to say, ‘This is halal , and this is haram . But, they would say, ‘I hate such-and-such, and maintain such-and-such, but as for halal and haram , this is what may be called inventing lies concerning Allah. Did not you hear Allah’s Statement that reads, ‘Say: Have you considered what provision Allah has sent down for you, how you have made of it lawful and unlawful? Say: Has Allah permitted you, or do you invent a lie concerning Allah?” (Yunus: 59) For, the halal is what Allah and His Messenger made lawful, and the haram is what Allah and His Messenger made unlawful.

As for Satan creating the flute... this is the first I have heard of such a claim! If you can link me to the story/narration/lecture I would be most appreciative, since it would allow me in particular to grow in knowledge and make sure I am not ignorant of such a belief in the future

[median ruin]

I believe this video goes over satan creating the first musical instrument https://youtube.com/watch?v=-THCypMbJdw&feature=share

[wary tusk]

Thank you for providing this source to your claim

[lunar ledge]

jazakallah khairan, i had not heard of prophet Seth. The video was a nice story but even the lecturer admits much of this information is from the books of Christians and Jews, and the one hadith that I can find and which islamqa talks about in length here ( https://islamqa.info/en/answers/302121/the-number-of-books-that-allah-may-he-be-exalted-sent-down ) is daif in ibn Hibbans Sahih (though I am reticent to use islamqa). I cannot find any authentic narrations about the creation of music anywhere however...

https://wordofprophet.com/story-of-prophet-sheeth-in-islam/

this is a good summary of the video for anyone who cant watch it (but sadly has no sources).

[wary tusk]

If the story of Sheeth AS was meant to be the avenue by which musical instruments were deemed prohibited, then surely the scholars who have ruled on this matter over the last 1400 years of tradition would cite this source. I have faith in our tradition to not leave our sources that would unequivocally deem something haram BUT as we've seen in Link's post above, there seems to be a lot of speculation on the story of this Prophet and as such, I'm sure that's why it was not included when ruling on this matter. Not to mention that we would still need an explicit commandment to deem something haram in order to do so.

[lunar ledge]

ibn hibban calls it sahih, ibn jawzi calls it fabricated, and ibn Kathir takes the two views and says the correct is that it is a supremely weak hadith
https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/348625/sheeth-seth-was-prophet
according to this site at least.

So I agree, if it were something that could be included in our Canon it would have been, but it is quite speculative.

[hoary gulch]

hi, so your posts are slightly confusing me, can you make a quick conclusion because there seems to have been a really long conversation here and i haven't really understood much