ik-2

[lethal bridge]

Yeah compared to the thigh that's way worse for me

That's also where the hamstring tendons kind of are 😅

[worn wadi]

Iam using the CV1 as my main headset and want to use a third controller as a hip tracker, how would i need to go about it with touch link? Or is that even possible? I want to pair it with vive wands as feet tracker. This setup worked before the ik2.0 update with the help of LIV and "LIVVRObjectServer".

[vast tangle]

Literally barely above your knees should work

Don’t over tighten the straps

[marsh elm]

some people have thighs thicker than knees

even just above lol

[vast tangle]

Unless you’re dummy thicc, your leg should be a hair thinner just above the knee right before the thigh starts

[lethal bridge]

Yeah I think we just have very different bodys xevian

[ruby cloud]

What would be good straps for above the knee, most ankle straps wouldn't fit

[vast tangle]

1 sec

[marsh elm]

i'm sorry @lethal bridge, it is garter belt tracker time

strap thyself

[lethal bridge]

Guess I'm dummy thicc 🤷

[vast tangle]

Skywin VR Tracker Belt and Tracker Strap Bundle for HTC Vive System Tracker Pucks - Adjustable Belt and Hand Straps for Waist and Full-Body Tracking in Virtual Reality (1 Belt and 2 Hand Straps) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07P149XG8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_JKYPH5B9J04XC678SJ4C?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

These straps are more leg straps than foot straps, they don’t tell you that and I found out the hard way trying to use them as foot straps

They can fit all the way around my upper thigh whereas their other set can’t even fit around my ankle. They really should specify the sizes

[marsh elm]

not sure if that applies to you, but i've used a gun belt with a leg holster before to jerry rig a hip strap lol

not the most comfortable thing, but it sure holds in place

[vast tangle]

This should move to #full-body-tracking

[marsh elm]

meh, ik 2 is just an extension of fbt to be honest

knee tracking is an ik2 thing so might as well

[ruby cloud]

I didn't even see that channel, I stopped scrolling when I saw ik2 lol

[lethal bridge]

Though just to clarify, the knee trackers bind to the upper leg right? So ideally the knee tracker should be attached to the upper leg?

[vast tangle]

Yes

[marsh elm]

ya

[vast tangle]

Really they only detect rotation of the leg relative to the foot

[lethal bridge]

Hmm I always thought it was more of a knee ik target kind of thing

[vast tangle]

Like you know how you can move your knee side to side without moving your foot

Like the stanky leg

That’s what knee tracking does

It’s a minor thing, but nice

Not near as noticeable as elbow tracking for example

[ruby cloud]

Also thanks for the link, I bought them.

[vast tangle]

Ye

Honestly adding elbow tracking is almost as much of an upgrade as adding foot tracking

Knee tracking is less so

Coming from someone with 10 point tracking

Once you use elbow trackers you’ll never be able to go back

[grand lynx]

Knee tracking has let me do really nice things with dancing, it really frees the hips

but yeah, your arms feel dumb after you've had elbow trackers then you remove them

General use I'd say elbow is better, for dancing, knees, well debatable.

[lethal light]

use some sort of belt/strap/rope/string to tie the knee trackers and the hip tracker together is how I do it

[vast tangle]

Honestly, if you don’t plan on walking around a lot or dancing, get elbow trackers anyway.

[grand lynx]

I'd agree

But I can't say much, im all in with 11 point

I dont want to give up either legs or elbow

knees*

[vast tangle]

I tried chest tracking by ditching a knee tracker

Didn’t notice much

[grand lynx]

Turn on all lock

you won't otherwise

it barely changes with hip lock

[lethal light]

interesting, I have completely ditched one of my knees for chest because I find chest to add a lot of accuracy

[vast tangle]

Does it allow spine arch? Do you need an upper chest bone?

[grand lynx]

The disconnect between chest and hips feel amazing

i do not use an upper chest bone

[lethal light]

it does allow spine arching, and you don't need an upper chest bone, but it helps smooth stuff out

[vast tangle]

Also, how do yall manage your receivers

I resorted to plugging the hip tracker receiver into the Index’s frunk to avoid interference as much as possible

[grand lynx]

10 usb 3.0 port dongle with wired dongles all spread out like a tree

lol

[grand lynx]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/617689222702301194/968654587059900416/answernext1.mp4

But yeah the hip snap i do at about 14 seconds

cant do without chest tracker

im not a great dancer, just vibing, but chest tracker feels great

[lethal light]

I've found a surprising amount of stuff that is impossible without a chest tracker in my time in pypydance

[vast tangle]

I don’t dance as much as act action

[grand lynx]

biggest thing ches tracker gives you is a nice disconnect between upper body and lower body, its immediately noticeable in your movement

[vast tangle]

I have a few avatars with some neat effects, combined with my martial arts skills I can put on a good show

[grand lynx]

but you have to fanagle with all lock a bit, it can take a bit to learn how to lock into properly

[vast tangle]

I’ll try ditching a knee tracker for chest

See how I like it

Before buying another tracker

I swear more games need to support >6 point tracking

Even just 6pt

There’s really only BaS

Which I still haven’t tried

[lethal light]

fbt in non-social sandbox type games is just in a sad state right now

[vast tangle]

It would be great for an insane level pf immersion in a R6 Siege type shooter

Gotta make sure all of you is behind cover

Get those leggies shot

[lethal light]

every game that has any sort of belt needs to support hip tracker to parent the belt to loking at you pavlov

[vast tangle]

Me, a hobby game dev: “why are there no games which support FBT”

[marsh elm]

its great, but their implementation is caveman tier when you compare it to VRChat

thankfully no one really looks at you, so you just need it to sweep da legs

[vast tangle]

Fine, I’ll do it myself

I have faith that more FBT games will come

[marsh elm]

kek

[vast tangle]

Meta needs to fall first

Honestly Apple’s leaked VR system could do some serious damage to Meta

If nothing else because of how many Apple users stay in their ecosystem

[elfin relic]

Touchlink works differently.
It would require a major redesign to do this.

I think you are probably screwed until Kung hopefully fixes it.

It has always annoyed me how the person who created LIVVRObjectServer never made it open source.

I assume you aren't crashing, so therefore it would fall into the same issue that is stopping vive wands (as trackers) from working.

[marsh elm]

(vive wands flashed as trackers work perfectly fine)

[worn wadi]

Iam crashing als long as i use LIVVRObjectServer either at launch or at calibrating, the vive wands work though.

[marsh elm]

(vive wands as vive wands don't work)

[elfin relic]

Yes, should have added "non-flashed"

[elfin relic]

Then that issue probably falls under the same issue touchlink had.

[worn wadi]

yeah...but the weird thing is it worked right after the update...the chance that i crash in the procces was high but at some point i was able to calibrate and it worked. Till i tryed to calibrate again then it would crash. It was just a matter of patience. But after another hotfix update that came i think it didnt work anymore no matter how often i tryed.

[elfin relic]

Similar behavior of it working after restarting VRChat has been reported and then didn't.
DeltaNeverUsed, who fixed the issue with touchlink, seems to have done it because that workaround stopped working as well.

[elfin relic]

Just doing some remembering, but the LIVVRObjectServer might still be fine.
Problem would therefore be with LIV's steamvr driver that it is hijacking.

LIV doesn't seem to support VRChat (would be odd if it did) so your only option would be to wait until the VRChat devs can figure out the issue.

[worn wadi]

Yeah damn, not being able to use fbt anymore really takes out a lot of fun from the game >_>

[elfin relic]

VRChat doesn't require a hip tracker anymore to have FBT (you can mix and match, just one leg and one arm etc).

Then there is always Owotrack and those virtual ones I have heard about.

[vast tangle]

You could try an Xbox Kinect

[elfin relic]

Not a lot gained with that when they have vive trackers for feet.

[marsh elm]

just do owo until vrchat unshids itself, plenty good

[worn wadi]

Owotrack doesnt like my phone unfortunately. >_>

[marsh elm]

nothing amazing but you'll not be hurting for hip tracking

[jaunty spindle]

Does anyone notice that the elbows on avatars stick out much more on IK 2 if you’re playing regular PCVR no fbt?

[vast tangle]

This is intended

It is to keep the elbows from clipping into the torso

[fleet skiff]

I've noticed the same thing, but I can still calibrate without crashing sometimes, its just that the chance of crashing got even higher.

[primal solar]

anyway to revert this as my feet trackers are stuck to the floor when having my menu open

[lethal bridge]

The feet trackers don’t move when you have your menu open?

[timber grove]

Mods can cause that crashing. If you have them, uninstall your mods to fix the crashing.

[fleet skiff]

I'm not using any mod. I even tried reinstalling the game multiple times and the issue is still there. I'm also using LIVVRObjectServer

[timber grove]

In vrchat?

[elfin relic]

If your tracker has a invalid (no idea what counts as invalid) serial number then VRChat crashes.

It is what DeltaNeverUsed figured out earlier in this chat.

[vast tangle]

It’s an external software not a vrchat mod

[elfin relic]

Ah yes, missunderstood the question.

LIVVRObjectServer is a program that allows you to use the third touch controller, that Oculus allowed you to pair for mixed reality stuff, as a proper tracker.

What I think it does (the Object server is for some reason no open source) is that it uses the LIV steamvr driver and it is likely the problem, having its serial number be something that VRChat doesn't like, or something.

[timber grove]

Doesn’t liv not work with VRChat?

[elfin relic]

Don't know why it would and if it does then I don't think anyone is using it

[elfin relic]

I am so bad at reading double negatives. . .

This is only hijacking its steamVR driver.

I think

[timber grove]

lol sorry about that

[marsh elm]

Doesn’t liv not not not not not work with VRChat?

[lethal bridge]

honestly its a mystery, it seems to occur to "poorly" named devices, and only if they update their pose

what constitutes "poorly named" and why not updating the pose doesn't cause vrc to crash is still 🤷

[elfin relic]

Jokes on you, it only took half a minute this time.

Gotta include several different negatives.

"I wouldn't haven't not understood your sentence if it hadn't not included an odd number of negatives in different patterns"

[elfin relic]

Yeah, the serial number thing is the best understanding of the problem I have.

I really don't get how steamVR drivers work.

[carmine gate]

It's not the serial

It's the TrackedDeviceClass

[grand ether]

I don’t like the kneese and how they move when u have a foot tracker on ur foot and u move ur foot close to ur body whiles angling ur feets downwards now causes ur whole leg to freak out and it’s super irritating cos it happens so much to me. I was hoping when vrchat said they improved the knees I really hope they meant it

[carmine gate]

If it's not a GenericTracker and you try to calibrate it with two controllers already present, VRChat explodes.

Having a good understanding of the SteamVR and OpenVR garbage under the hood, I understand it's taking a bit to fix. I just bloody hope it's actully being investigated and not just chucked up to "Oh but "alternative" full body methods are not supported by VRChat officially, we don't need to fix this." considering it's marked as "tracked internally" and not "in progress" on the Canny.

[carmine gate]

At this point, I'm going on a crusade to fix something I don't own, and that nobody will ever care for.

You can reflash Vive wands to act as trackers, but the existing LIVVRObjectServer app of an unknown source, that gets marked as a virus when I download it from that one Gist. spawns a controller class device.
There's an app here https://booth.pm/ja/items/1303330 But it seems to want you to use InputEmulator 🤮 to adjust the position (probably works fine with spacecalibrator? I dont understand some people), though by the name, and the fact the default rendermodel it picks is a vive tracker, and it talks about limitations of a tracker versus a controller when it comes to orientation when occluded. I think this thing might actually spawn an actual GenericTracker class device in SteamVR from the VR Object controller.

I have no way to test this.

[worn bobcat]

if he only want's to use a third CV1 controller as a hip tracker while still using the same CV1 hmd and controllers in steamvr it'd be a very simple modification to Touchlink

i believe all you'd have to do is undefine CREATE_CONTROLLERS at line 11 and recompile

but i might have missed something and that's not what they want to do

i think he'd have to enable tracking in the steamvr driver as well?
and disable using the hmd as a tracker
all inside the run_as_trackers.bat file

[elfin relic]

The part I thought would be hard is getting the Rift to be able to run both Touchlink and SteamVR, but do now realize that I have never actually checked how it looks in headset, nor tried to test if two "apps" can be open at once and both get tracking data.

[worn bobcat]

yeah, you can still get the tracking data via Touchlink while still in steamvr

but you might have to do the tracking in the driver for it to work, i don't remember

i remember doing this myself once while i was testing something, i don't remember what i was testing though

[elfin relic]

Probably wouldn't be bad functionality to have if someone wanted to only track the VR object.

[worn bobcat]

yeah, but at the moment you'll have to recompile it yourself haha

[carmine gate]

the whole squad's here

[worn bobcat]

indeed

very fancy

[marsh elm]

very distinguished

oh my

[worn bobcat]

hehe

[digital grove]

which squad is this

I'm afraid I don't know who these people are

[devout current]

same

[plush frost]

The eyes on my Rexouium avatar work really weirdly with IK2 even if they look fine in Unity, help?

They work fine with original IK btw

[marsh elm]

buncha people that are doing work on one or multiple drivers to make oculus cv1 controllers do business with steamvr

[worn wadi]

This app from Booth works! Iam able to use my third cv1 controller as a tracker again without issues. Thanks^^

[dusk anvil]

good morning ik crew

i got a hip tracker

[carmine gate]

Did you use Input Emulator or SpaceCalibrator? And how did you get it to work?

[worn wadi]

The Input Emulator was needed...without it the app doesnt even start. I just had to assign the role to the tracker and adjust the offset inside Input Emulator while being in steamvr.

[carmine gate]

yeah okay, this wont do

gotta fuckin write our own solution

[worn bobcat]

good luck

[carmine gate]

wdym, youre part of this

[worn bobcat]

oh no

i barely know what i'm doing, but sure

[marsh elm]

thrusting time

[carmine gate]

Anyone who has touched at even a single line of touchlink is now automatically enrolled into the "VRChat won't fix OpenVR device assignment so we have to make an easy to use bandaid fix of an app ourselves" initiative

[marsh elm]

let me go hide before i get conscripted into this 😆

[worn bobcat]

i mean... it's not like i have a project yet, so this actually works out pretty well

[tight aurora]

oh no but what about aughip 2 electric boogaloo?

[worn bobcat]

that's one hell of a cursed name

[marsh elm]

aughippy

[lethal bridge]

actually I like the fact that vrchat doesn't use tracker roles

its grown on me 😮

[marsh elm]

eh

[devout current]

wdym with "weirdly"?

[lethal bridge]

also I think saying "vrchat wont fix it" is being kind of rude after kung literally said they were working on fixing the tracker issues

[marsh elm]

Their official stance is that its not supported

Kung will because he is nice, """vrchat""" wont

[worn bobcat]

well i mean it'll still probably be a lil' while before it's fixed

[devout current]

And that they are probably going to fix it...

[devout current]

What Kung does = what VRChat does....

[carmine gate]

that is not what I meant

I'm referring to VRChat crashing if more than two SteamVR devices with a TrackedDeviceClass of Controller are present. Like is the case when using LIVVRObjectServer to use a third Rift controller as a waist tracker.

The app I linked from Booth does spawn the object as a GenericTracker class device, but it puts it in the same tracking space, but at the wrong offset, which means you need to use OpenVR-InputEmulator to fix it, but OVRIE is currently held by shoestrings and bubblegum and running it as part of your SteamVR setup introduces free random crashes for no apparent reason.

[lethal bridge]

are you certain that's the exact issue? I've had this exact thing happen and vrc doesnt crash

it just doesn't bind to them

[carmine gate]

Well that, anyway, they don't work.

[lethal bridge]

I fail to see how this is a problem

[carmine gate]

ok, I put too many word

There is a problem

.

[lethal bridge]

sorry if my opinion upset you. if you don't mind, could you describe why there is a problem?

[carmine gate]

The IK 2.0 update has made VRChat incompatible with some setups involving controllers being used as trackers.

unflashed vive wands, and livvrobjectserver are the main victims of this bug.

[worn bobcat]

is there other things causing crashes other than the serial numbers?

[lethal bridge]

not sure

id love to know though

and im sure kung would too

[lethal bridge]

kung has said there are some peculiar problems that may arise allowing binding to non generictracker type objects right?

one I can think of is losing actual controller hand assignment to a device not meant to be a hand

[carmine gate]

I already commented and upvoted the canny

Im already aware of the bug and what its consequences are

[lethal bridge]

I am very well aware

[worn bobcat]

could i get a link to that canny?

[lethal bridge]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/using-non-standard-devices-as-trackers-can-cause-crashes

[marsh elm]

anyone use kiwi straps? they work good on knees/elbows?

[final raven]

Holy cow...

Those patch notes!

[lethal light]

uhh... kinda?
One elbow works consistantly great, the other not so much. The plastic clip likes to change orientation from horizontal to vertical while being active, causing it to loosen and slide around.
The knees will not stay up at all unless you have some other straps of sorts connecting them to the hip tracker belt.

wait,

I read kiwi as tundra why am I going insane waiting for mine to come

[lethal bridge]

kung you saint

[solar cloud]

What does it mean when the base layer gets replaced by something else but you use it for stuff like GoGoLoco?

[lethal bridge]

it means if you toggle off locomotion, you won't have gogoloco base layer

but if you don't toggle it off, gogoloco will work as normal

[solar cloud]

And does the button to disable auto footsteps still exist with new sdk?

[oak pendant]

Yeah, think of it like the AFK detection or Gesture toggle user settings. It still allows you to build anything you want into your animators, but also allows users to override the base layer on any avatar. (It temporarily swaps out the base layer for one with a standing-only animation.)

So if you leave it default (avatar's locomotion layer: ON) then it'll just use what's built into the avatar, GoGoLoco or any special thing will still function in that mode

(Just like you could make an elaborate AFK animation, and also turn it off with a per user setting)

[lethal bridge]

[strong sundial]

Since it replaces the base layor, does that mean it only works for 3.0 avatars. Or do 2.0 ones also work?

[mild nimbus]

I assume if we wanted to remake that for ourselves it would be proxy_stand_still shoved into a single layer?

[oak pendant]

yep!

[solar cloud]

What about this?

[oak pendant]

The checkbox still exists, no changes there

[solar cloud]

Oki thx

[oak pendant]

Users are still free to build any elaborate locomotion or other type of system for their base layer, and it'll still function just like before. The checkboxes in the SDK will still work as they did before as well

[solar cloud]

What happens if the checkbox is already off?

[oak pendant]

Basically, if you leave the toggle as default (on) nothing changes at all

if you never touch that button there are no changes at all to avatars in any way

[marsh elm]

Lmao

Tundra is making us all go mad in the noggin

[oak pendant]

If you toggle locomotion to: [off] it's as if your base layer was uploaded with a single layer with the stand still animation, and as if the use auto footstep and force locomotion checkboxes were unchecked. (But this is only temporary until you toggle locomotion back on)

[marsh elm]

So is all that for tundra straps, or kiwi?

[undone plinth]

The EoZ (Tundra) knee straps suck

[oak pendant]

higher layers will still function, so the gesture, fx etc will still work on top of the standstill base layer

[lethal light]

tundra xD

[marsh elm]

Ooh got it 😆

[oak pendant]

And notably the crouch and prone animations won't play, so you won't have the hip and shoulder and spine shift slightly depending on how near to the floor you are

[lethal bridge]

By the way kung, don't forget to mark the "populate more trackers" canny as complete too!

[oak pendant]

Oh yea, almost forgot. Thanks

And the locomotion blend speed one too

[solar cloud]

Thought Av3Emulator is breaking on newest sdk?

It works perfectly fine

[oak pendant]

Did Lyuma already update it?

[lethal bridge]

Don't seem like it

[oak pendant]

I thought the new parameter drivers etc broke it

[solar cloud]

Dunno but i don't get errors and it works

this should be newest

[marsh elm]

Inb4 twisted into a pretzel ingame

After upload

[oak pendant]

pretzelization is largely caused by the hip tracker failing to calibrate

the slight bump up to range should help produce fewer pretzels

[marsh elm]

was joke about uploading with broken stuff like emulator

Good to know though

[oak pendant]

I think there was on more canny I needed to mark complete...

Oh yeah the footstep blend one

[raw wadi]

Gogo useless

[lethal bridge]

isn't that a good thing 😅

[oak pendant]

GoGoLoco and the others aren't useless, they provide more options for setting tracking control, for example animate hips and have tuned up blend tress etc.. think they still do an excellent job as replacement base layers.

[marsh elm]

Gogoloco best loco

4loko is a close second 😋

[raw wadi]

I should change the name for that

Tupper less then a week ago

you can do this via AV3/ gogoloco right now, adding it natively has some potential negative side-effects

It was a feature user wanted, they find a way to do so. Good it's finally there for every user.

[lethal light]

I am curious as to what the "potential negative side-effects" are

[raw wadi]

VRChat on ice edition

[digital grove]

Immediate death

[marsh elm]

Lmao

[lethal light]

instructions unclear, I turned into an eboy

[burnt wagon]

@oak pendant Here is the canny post about using the option to use the metric system as a means to more accuracy to user height. Would like to see a lot of feed back and votes on this.

https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/how-to-make-fbt-even-better

[lethal light]

For future reference, use a more descriptive title. How to make FBT EVEN BETTER!!! is a terrible title as it has no relation to the actual contents of the request. [Feature Request] Allow Metric System Measurements for Height Scaling would be much better because it conveys that this is a feature people are asking for and a quick bit of information about the context of the request

[oak pendant]

Edited your title though so I can find it again later on. Otherwise I won't know what it is in the list

[oak pendant]

Ah, just read this, yeah exactly. Though the positivity is appreicated @burnt wagon 😁

[lethal light]

xD

[burnt wagon]

won't let me edit post. Help??

[lethal light]

has to be done by one of the VRC staff members

[oak pendant]

I think you can edit your own

I closed the browser tab, maybe something went wrong because I edited it

[burnt wagon]

I give kung perms to change it if it must be by a staff member

[oak pendant]

Ah ok, I'll set that title

[burnt wagon]

Thank you

[oak pendant]

I stuck the feature request label on it, and then moved it to the IK2.0 board

Feature request board was correct (where you first put it)

but it could have gone in either, and for me personally to see it (and remember later) I check IK2.0 a bit more often

[digital grove]

I thought it was metric system already, how is it not

Does it change by locale or something

[oak pendant]

You increment the inches and it converts to metric for you, so yeah I agree that doing it in metric (while still displaying imperial) would let you dial it in more

Possible drawbacks are more clicks to change the number a lot, and maybe people who don't like metric would be offended or something

[digital grove]

Ah I see now that I remember yes it was very weird that it wouldn't let me increment just one centimeter. 'murrica

[rustic berry]

(pic for reference) so how about this, what if you could just click on either the metric text or the imperial text to select which one you want to use

[oak pendant]

Maybe, but that gets into the complexity-cost zone

I think "arrow makes it go up" would work just as well if the main unit is metric

just click more until your desired imperial value shows too

[raw wadi]

Have the number be a button. It swap Wich one is bigger

[oak pendant]

Yeah that would work, but people would accidently click it

not bad ideas though

[lethal light]

I think this could be confusing if someone was in metric and clicked the up arrow and the number didn't change, or at least to people who don't know how the system works (yes I know the metric number is right there)

[oak pendant]

There's also a suggestion for an auto-measure feature

to grab from the headset's height

[oak pendant]

Yeah.. it'd have to give some feedback

you'd see the metric number change, but providing decimal inches is probably a bit much

[lethal light]

just remove imperial measurements, I mean it is time the Americans learned

[raw wadi]

I always have to reset my floor. Every session not sure how that detection will react if I reset it ingame

[oak pendant]

depends on how off your floor gets

[raw wadi]

A good 3 inch at least

[oak pendant]

a few cm/inches would maybe be ok, but more than about 4~5cm and it would likely start to have a bit of impact

impact on calibration and also shoulder tracking, and probably more things in the future

[rustic berry]

yea, if the numbers were buttons, it should be intuitive

or just a toggle off to the left to toggle between metric/imperial

[lethal light]

hmm...... When the main menu is reworked, could the toggle between metric and imperial units be placed there and used throughout any place in the application that would require it? I mean, it wouldn't solve the visibility issue if the backend is all calculated in metric, but it would be away to move functionality that is not likely to be changed often out of the quick menu and decrease the technical burden there

[oak pendant]

That could work too, it would depend on the drill-down level that main menu settings get to

But I think measurement units seems pretty reasonable in a place like that

[marsh elm]

cease

[lethal light]

alright, feeling better now. I'm back as an anime girl

[marsh elm]

Whew

We almost lost him, boys

[raw wadi]

but it seen desktop/3pt player won't have the gift to slide around with this update

[lethal light]

is there a reason for them to?

[raw wadi]

why not

[lethal light]

I mean, I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just asking what use people would have for it

You would literally have legs that stay in one position and never change(well, one for each height).

[raw wadi]

Seen as that new option will only be useful for average fbt user

[devout current]

That's what it's supposed to be for

[lethal bridge]

If I understood the update correctly, there should be support for up to 16 tracked devices from SteamVR, but only up to 11 will be used for fbt. this means that all 16 should be visible and tracking when calibrating right? and the 8 used for fbt will be selected by distance to avatar target area?

this is what I'm seeing in game:

[rustic berry]

I see 8 tracking spheres and 2 controllers, seems right to me

[lethal bridge]

the additional trackers above the 11 used for fbt are stuck in the ground though

[rustic berry]

I mean, VRChat doesn't support more than 8 trackers

so those won't really do anything

[lethal bridge]

for reference, this is what my steamvr devices look like

[rustic berry]

I'm wondering if you tried swapping your foot tracker for another tracker that was on, if the new one you put on your foot would be used as the foot tracker

that's what I expect to happen

[lethal bridge]

right but the point of requesting the additional tracker population was so I didnt have to start vr in a certain order such that the indices would be so that the ones for fbt show up first

I've got 3 trackers around my waist area, but only the one with the index less than 11 shows up at the hip

[rustic berry]

I see

[lethal bridge]

for this instance its what I use for fbt because thats how I started up steam

[devout current]

I can already feel my bank account getting emptier from just looking at this xD

[lethal bridge]

but for example I just restart steamvr:

huh odd

restarted steamvr and they're now all in the right spot

huh it just works now

guess if it comes up again I'll check the ik debug log whivh Ive just renabled

[lethal bridge]

this isnt even my final form

[minor rampart]

@oak pendant was height changed in this update?

because I'm 100% certain I'm 5'8" (a hair over actually), but now my feet are in the floor by about an inch to half an inch

I have to set things down to about 5'6" to 5'7" to get the same position before this update applied

[raw wadi]

My feet was always in floor as well. Not new for me

[minor rampart]

this is new for me.

[devout current]

Are you using Arm span or height based measurement?

[minor rampart]

height, as always

@devout current what have your results been?

[devout current]

Last time I played was yesterday (before the update) and I had 0 issues.

Is your floor height in SteamVR correct?

[minor rampart]

yup

this is post update tonight

[devout current]

hm idk this sounds like they changed something about it

[final sphinx]

wtf

[digital grove]

They've been saying this for ages

I.e. since ik-2 started

[devout current]

Ik, just found it interesting that they mention it as "If you are having issues with FBT in this patch, check that first! "

[digital grove]

That's probably just standard wording procedure, especially as usually the people who find this issues are trying ik-2 for the first time

[devout current]

Yeah probably, I didn't have time yet to test out this new update in FBT. And I also probably won't have time for that until next week sadly.

Hey Kung, you can now place even more stuff in the FBT Quick menu, since you now have a 3rd row xD

one year and 35 rows for IK later You can now change ever single setting that you could think of!

[vast tangle]

[devout current]

Btw does the toggle for walking animations only work for when you have hip and feet trackers? Or also when you idk only have elbow trackers?

[minor rampart]

my only complaint about toggling the animation is that it forces a reload of the entire avatar. It's not a deal breaker, by any stretch---I just found it a bit odd given that custom locomotion can do this without forcing a reload---but again, not a big deal; doesn't really have much of an impact at all--just odd.

[devout current]

Oh it does?

Hm that's a bit meh

[minor rampart]

yeah---all the more obvious when I was axing the custom layers on my avatar and I uploaded a test version.

Put on my outfit, changed the animation via VRC's official method

and it reloaded my avy and I was naked

I was like "oh---that's...weird"

[devout current]

Have you turned off saving the paramter?

[minor rampart]

I got rid of everything related to that one package

it's just default locomotion and default idle now

purge the param and removed it from the menu

like I said--it's only using VRC's native toggle now

def reloads the avatar every time you do it

[devout current]

I hope you are right, I don't have time to test it my self currently. So I made a canny based of what you said.

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feedback-for-locomotion-toggle-dont-reload-the-avatar-when-turning-locomotion-on

[minor rampart]

thanks!

[marsh elm]

Oh hey, it's fox 👋

[marsh elm]

Oh, which avatar is that?

[lethal bridge]

a meme avatar that is just bones
useful for looking at how the IK reacts though

[marsh elm]

yeah, that's why i wanted it haha

wanna try some different calibration methods

[spiral mica]

is there any focus on improving the elbows on the new ik? They are bloody awful

I'm stuck using legacy it's annoying T_T

[robust tangle]

I don’t think you’ll be able to find that many people who agree with you, unfortunately. I love the elbows in the new IK.

the toggle is there for a reason to make everyone happy

[spiral mica]

I made a feedback post, its cool

I can find loads of people that agree with me ;)

[marsh elm]

new elbows 🔻

[elfin relic]

It is easy to find the result you want.

Obviously the only ones who would talk about it in contexts outside of this one would be those unhappy with it.

Personally I think it is a good improvement, which I measured by how well I could do the chicken dance. Although my the avatar and my actual arm length probably do a lot to help it.

[spiral mica]

ye but I can actually prove the issue

and replicate it with every avi I try

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/elbow-prediction-a-lot-worse-with-new-ik

its ok Im made a feedback post if nothing comes from it whatever

[marsh elm]

chest avoidance + flipping the fuck out sometimes <<< minor clipping + very stable
imo

[spiral mica]

I was foolish to think mentioning on discord would do anything, so ye feedback post it is

legacy is just soo much better in general

only for elbows

[vast tangle]

It isn’t though

[spiral mica]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/elbow-behavior-while-hand-is-near-or-on-the-shoulder riiight

yes it works perfect clearly ><'

maybe you just cant reach your shoulders with your hands ><

[vast tangle]

That could be down to the proportions of the avatars arm bones

[spiral mica]

no its not

[vast tangle]

Looks like the forearm is shorter than it should be on that avatar

[spiral mica]

it's every avatar, please stop saying that.

[vast tangle]

Like it physically can’t reach

[spiral mica]

I cant find one avatar that doesn't replicate the issue, it's the new ik

not the avatar rigs

[vast tangle]

Doesn’t affect any of mine

[spiral mica]

sure

[trim fox]

did u try public default avatars?

honestly it depends probably on irl arm lenght

elbow trackers would fix the issue

[spiral mica]

mate some people cant even afford headsets

saying, get elbow trackers isnt the solution

[trim fox]

maybe there is canny about it

[vast tangle]

As somebody who uses elbow tracking with an index I wouldn’t recommend just getting elbow trackers that shits expensive

[trim fox]

it is probably fixable with just some thinkering around

doesn't have that issue on index controllers

[spiral mica]

default enough for you

granted it's not great on legacy but the rigs for the detault avis are atrocious

but you can see legacy still is an improvement

[trim fox]

idk by look of it ik 2 on deafult avi now works fine

[spiral mica]

wait

I had a thing that cant be named on

to stop the spazzing

no offence but if you cant see its worse I dont know what to tell you

[trim fox]

ik legacy might look better but ik 2 have more natural movements

[spiral mica]

turned off the tweaks

xDDD

if you think that's better. .... then I dont know what reality you live in

[trim fox]

for me personally it's better no idea why for u it's like that

[spiral mica]

I think maybe you should check yourself

[devout current]

In generall the new arm IK keeps the elbows more downwards, in most cases it feels better then the old IK. Normally you don't move your entire elbow up just because you rotated your wrist.

The new arm IK has a bit of a problem when you move your arms behind your back when your hand is still pointing forwards, aswell as the issues it has when touching your own shoulder.

[spiral mica]

no the new ik flares the elbows, legacy keeps them downwards

you have it backwards

[devout current]

When you are not doing the things I mentioned above the new IK keeps the arms more downwards, the old IK mostly just made them stick out of your wirst.

[spiral mica]

now that sounds more like avi rig issue

[devout current]

This mostly comes from the fact that it's really heard to predict where your arm is in those situations. I still hope that Kung can improve it though.

[spiral mica]

sure but at the end of the day legacy is just preforming better for this one example. No beating around the bush or excusing it. https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/elbow-behavior-while-hand-is-near-or-on-the-shoulder it's one of the top voted feedbacks. I didn't realise it was noted before asked in here

so ye no point arguing about it, I've proved my point. I do hope it gets looked at

[devout current]

Yeah and I never said anything against that lol

I said that the IK has issues when you hands are near your shoulder...

[spiral mica]

yep yep which is exactly what I was talking about

and was showing in the clips

if you dance, you puit your hands near your shoulders a lot

so it's pretty annoying, maybe for peolpe that just lie around etc it's fine

[devout current]

urgh even when laying down your hands are often near your shoulder.

[spiral mica]

true 😩

[raw wadi]

Might depend of the controller in use

Anyway. How often you have your hands on your shoulders

[spiral mica]

I use index, I dont think it's based on controller.

its not about it being on your shoulders

in my clips are my hands on my shoulders?

[robust tangle]

you have it backwards. Probably interpreting the toggle incorrectly

When the star is lit up it’s the new IK

[vast tangle]

Not a problem for Quest users

[vast tangle]

Is your steamvr environment scaled?

That doesn’t happen to me on either mode

Also is your height set correctly

[spiral mica]

prove it @vast tangle get in the default robot

hand near shoulder

lets see how not a problem it is

[vast tangle]

Nonono I’m talking about your fucking elbow snapping in half as it does in the video

That only happens when my controller gets further away from my head than my arm can allow, such as when dropping the controller

[spiral mica]

that is a bit avi dependant but it's to do with the elbow chest avoidance, when you turn it off in tweaks it goes away

[vast tangle]

Makes me think you changed your steam world scale

[spiral mica]

elbow flaring is still there

no

[vast tangle]

Neither mode causes my elbow to bend backwards when I put my arms out

[spiral mica]

sureee

xD

hand near shoulder, it will do as I have shown

[vast tangle]

It literally never happens bro

[spiral mica]

righhht

totes

[vast tangle]

What are you trying to prove by denying a simple fact

[spiral mica]

Ive proven it

[vast tangle]

I’ve never once held my arms out in front of me and had the avatars arms bend backwards at impossible angles

[spiral mica]

" once held my arms out in front of me"

xD

just stop

[vast tangle]

“Never once”

Are you daft

[spiral mica]

right Im the daft one.

[vast tangle]

It’s a simple fact. That’s never happened to me

[spiral mica]

prove it

default robot, full body, no elbow tracking, hand near shoulder

[vast tangle]

Right, prove that it’s never happened

[spiral mica]

clip it

if you're that confident you can do it to show me

I clipped it, Im sure you can to

[vast tangle]

We’re talking about different things you angry piece of lettuce

[oak pendant]

https://tenor.com/view/jurassic-park-chris-pratt-wait-hold-up-stop-gif-14593205

I think you are both talking about two different things

[spiral mica]

the thing is Kung I showed clips, so I dont understand how one can interpret what Im saying differently. Im not here to argue

if people think it's fine, thats cool.

[vast tangle]

Did you even watch your own fucking video mate

[spiral mica]

pretty sure I did

[vast tangle]

Click the reply

[oak pendant]

@spiral mica the video you posted in Canny was useful, thanks for that one. If giving feedback please show an example of it working how you'd like. When you showed the pose in legacy mode in your example that was helpful

[vast tangle]

I’m referring to the video of you sticking your arm out and it causing the avatars arms to snap

[spiral mica]

my arm is at my side

[vast tangle]

Also never had the issue of the hands at the shoulder either

[spiral mica]

np had I realised there was a feedback website and it was noted I wouldnt of typed in here. But ye I made my note, ty for looking at it

aside from this one issue, new ik is great

[oak pendant]

In most IK solutions, if you pretty much overlap the wrist with the shoulder, crazy things will happen (does in legacy as well) but noting the poses you'd like improved with direct comparison is really helpful

Just overlapping the shoulder and showing it wig out without a comparison isn't so helpful though (not talking directly to Yatzi about this). Because you can overlap the shoulder in any IK solution to produce strange results

[spiral mica]

the wigging seems to be relatedf

to elbow chest avoidance

turn that off and it stops, but the backwards flare in that general position is still there.

[oak pendant]

IK2.0 during beta had a lot of feedback requesting improvement to poses where the elbow goes up, like these kinds of poses

these are largely improved over legacy, but now the weak point is elsewhere (as you note in your videos)

so yeah the feedback with examples showing how the pose should be (not just that it can break) is very helpful

I mean IRL if you pull someone's wrist behind and inside their shoulder, the arm is gonna break too

(don't try this please)

[oak pendant]

The function handling elbow chest avoidance is handling other parts of elbow prediction as well. Not just near chest stuff

[spiral mica]

this is the positon my arm is in, if you're wondering

[oak pendant]

thanks, useful info

This is also a problem for 3point users because they can get the whole lower body to swing into a position off from IRL

[spiral mica]

ingame with the new ik it looks like

[oak pendant]

which can misalign the shoulders more

[spiral mica]

some avis handle it a bit better than others, but they all seem to do it

and the move you move that hand backwards

you get that crazy elbow jolting

[oak pendant]

The avatar dependent stuff tends to be based on how far forward the avatar's shoulder joint is

[spiral mica]

ahhh that would make sense

maybe I could tweak my avis more to help in the interim

ty for the info! Really helpful

[oak pendant]

IRL it's very hard to get the actual wrist joint behind the shoulder joint. Even in this picture the rotation point of your wrist is in front of the rotation point of the upper arm-shoulder joint

[robust tangle]

incorrect view positions can also do a number on IK if your shoulders aren't where your real shoulders are

[oak pendant]

but on avatars you can get into that shoulder dislocating pose easily

[spiral mica]

worth fiddling with, I can see!

[spiral mica]

yes indeed! xD

[robust tangle]

your hands will always be relative to your view position, NOT your head

[spiral mica]

I wouldnt recommend trying ><

[oak pendant]

Anyway, I'm aware of the current weak points. And the very most helpful thing is to express (especially with videos) an example of the pose working

Because there are some poses that would dislocate your shoulder IRL that don't really have an ideal solution, so just showing that it can break isn't helpful there. But expressing in what way you want it to dislocate is

[night niche]

Does changing hip/head locking help at all with shoulders/elbows being related to the view position?

[spiral mica]

for sure, really didnt expect the man himself to pop in here, I appreciate it.

[robust tangle]

not in any significant way - only during head drift due to using hip lock

[spiral mica]

always appreciate your work Kung :p I've used your fbt fix video numerous times! Goodluck with further tweaking!

[oak pendant]

Hip and head lock can adjust the shoulder height relative to your real shoulders. In general the better the avatar's shoulders line up with IRL the better it'll be. As far as I know there aren't any poses that work IRL that don't work in IK2.0

but there are ways to get the avatar to do things that a body can't IRL when the shoulders aren't aligned IRL

[oak pendant]

thanks!

[night niche]

I've usually got elbow trackers strapped on so I haven't been in a position to notice any issues with impossible elbow motions, but I'll try different lock modes to see if it improves the shoulder tracking since it's been hard to notice shrugs with the default lock hip so far. Thanks!

[oak pendant]

Ah yeah it has an effect on shoulder tracker too, because the whole avatar can shift vertically relative to you IRL

It's also possible to get a bit more of the motion you might want if you do otherwise prefer the way one of the lock modes handles misalignment... If you do what you don't want to see during calibration, when you relax out of it, you'll get more of what you want to see

so for example if you want to see more shrugging, you can try to stretch your shoulders downward (still in tpose though) when you calibrate

Same thing goes for any issue really. You can do a lot to compensate for avatar proportions and bone positions by just imitating whatever pose you don't like to see a bit during calibration and then relax out of it when you stand normally

[night niche]

I know that with lock all the "standard" calibration pose turns me into Quasimodo, and looking down about 30 degrees during calibration fixes that last I tried it, so I'll have to play with some more calibration poses like you're describing to see what effects I can get

[robust tangle]

lock all is reserved for avatars that are perfectly lined up with your real body, it's not going to work for most people in most avatars. pick if you want your head or hip to be accurate. both at once will buckle your spine if the avatar's are farther apart than your own.

[night niche]

Yeah, the hip default has been great for basically everything to be honest.

[robust tangle]

I strongly prefer head but i'm thrilled they let you pick

waving around in front of a mirror doesn't look weird with head lock

[minor rampart]

Lock both is interesting. It looks like I just got out of bed, unless I’m standing nearly perfectly straight up.

[vast tangle]

It usually looks like I’m standing at attention

[robust tangle]

When I do Lock Both I just look like I’m doing Michael Jackson’s neck thing when he moonwalks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_3v-_p3ESo

[vast tangle]

You know what fuck you superglues your vertebrae together

[robust tangle]

You can’t afix a hinged pipe to two exact points without slack or stretch!

There is always the possibility of actually stretching or squishing bones like some engines do

[minor rampart]

yeahp

[slim temple]

Hey, I'm having issues with the leg trackers binding to both and leg and foot and the foot tracker not binding to anything unless I playspace move way above where I should be (which also messes up the arm trackers after calibration). I had issues getting the arm trackers to bind correctly which was fixed by setting the calibration range to 1.0, but it didn't fix the legs unfortunately. Is there something else that can be done to adjust the leg and foot tracker calibration range so they bind correctly? I'm using height based measurement and my user real height is set correctly.

[oak pendant]

Nothing related to height measurement changed in the most recent patch. I asked them to reiterate that there for visibility but by "this patch" they meant "this release" meaning release of IK2.0 in general.

[oak pendant]

Do you wear your leg trackers above the knee? That's the recommended position. Also checking that your SteamVR floor height is correct, and fixing that if necessary could help too

[slim temple]

No the leg trackers are at the bottom of the leg, it would be way too uncomfortable any further up the leg

[oak pendant]

I see. That's likely the cause.

Still fixing up the floor height if it's off might kick it in range to be detected as knee (if it was off)

You could try using slightly different values for User Real Height to see if one of them calibrates better for you as well, then compensating with the custom arm ratio launch option to get the world scale back to what you need... But I hesitate to recommend that because in general using an inaccurate User Real Height is probably the most common cause of issues for users right now

[slim temple]

I went through SteamVR room setup and OVRAS floor fix before I started testing so that's probably not going to help

[oak pendant]

User Real Height will determine the size that it expects your body to be when fitting the calibration, so if it finds your shins as your feet, it may think your body is too small for some reason. In that cause you could slightly increase User Real Height and it would look further down from your head to find your feet trackers. But if floor height is accurate and your User Real Height is accurate that shouldn't be needed

Do you do something like wear your feet trackers on the back of your ankle or something?

[oak pendant]

Oh, yeah... that's not really a supported configuration

Does that actually accurately point your knees in the right direction?

Assuming perfect setting of floor and User Real Height, this is going to be about the center of where it starts searching for the foot tracker:

It's gonna have a hard time knowing which is which

This is roughly where it expects the trackers to be:

[slim temple]

It's close enough, the range of movement between knee and lower leg is pretty small

[oak pendant]

Though the hip tracker doesn't have to be on any particular side, it assumes it on the waist at about that height though

I can see why that knee tracker setup would be uncomfortable though. But we don't really support that mounting position

Do you find yourself really needing an external battery with the Tundra Trackers?

They seem to last really long in my experience

[timber grove]

Aren't the tundras and 3.0 vives roughly the same?

in terms of battery life?

[oak pendant]

Their hardware specs say 9 hours. But I haven't yet tested mine to full draining

[slim temple]

Yeah, they do run out during long sessions (12+ hours), the tundras last 7-8 hours without powerbanks under normal use

[strong sundial]

That's odd they only last 7-8 hours for you. My tundras last close to 11 hours consistently.

[oak pendant]

I see. Hmm that's a shame that it doesn't work for you. Without a battery pack like that the tundra trackers are super comfortable for me at the knees. The EOZ straps are very nice if you can get them. I'm currently using a DIY setup with an elastic band like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Elastic-Sewing-Stretch-Elasticity-Braided/dp/B07MNVKWFH

10cm wide and I stuff it through the belt-loop alternate back plate on the tundras

because it's wider than the loop the tracker can't slide around

and because it's stretchy it basically feels like putting on socks or something

Stays put very comfortably just above the knees

It's a shame I mean because you have the relatively lighter tundras, but can't mount them due to battery issues

You could also just let the knee trackers die if you end up on a long session and have it fall back to IK just for the knees

Otherwise you might need to get creative with a way to comfortably mount that battery

You miiight get it to work if you try to mount the foot tracker back slightly so it's nearer the center of the top of the foot... but I'm pretty sure you'll continue to have problems with both those trackers so near each other

[slim temple]

Hmm, guess I'll have to play around with the tracker position more then, it's a shame that it can't detect the foot tracker being the one closest to the ground

[oak pendant]

There would still have to be range considerations because we exclude distant tackers. If someone had a tracker sitting on the floor but not near their foot, it would count as "lowest" But I see what you mean

@slim temple It might be worth a try to rotate the leg trackers behind your leg to get it further from the center of the top of the foot too

[minor rampart]

What do you use for chest, elbow, and knee mounts, Kung?

I got EOZ for feet to replace my rebuff--they're amazing

[oak pendant]

That combined with slightly moving back the foot tracker's mount point nearer the center of the top of the foot might make it fail calibration less often

[minor rampart]

but rebuff as elbow mounts cuts off my circulation

[oak pendant]

I actually use the same 10cm elastic for everything except waist now.

It's not really feasibly for commercial production because it needs custom sizing, so for a non-DIY solution I really like the EOZ. But I don't mind spending a bunch of time on strap DIY

for the waist I use a stretchy woven braid belt like this

And have poked a 1/4" tripod style bolt through it and a flat circle of acrylic covered in felt to give a rigid mounting point

Ah I found an old picture I took of it.

So it's like this:

But of course, this isn't necessary. The EOZ stuff works great too

I just kinda enjoy doing the DIY

There are also other tracking straps etc available out there. But yeah this is my setup

[pine oar]

When i first got fbt, i used an old pair of shoes and laced the 3.0's on the top of the shoes. Was pretty comfortable, lol. My waist strap was of the utmost ghetto, however. Took one nub and pushed it under my back center beltloop on a pair of jeans. Then i used a small velcro strap (from my comcast coaxial cable) and wrapped it tightly around another one of the nubs on the tracker and secured the velcro around my actual belt.

[narrow yew]

eoz feet straps are definitely the best i have used so far

[digital grove]

they do be pretty good

and less noisy than shoes

shoes make lots of noise when dancing

my neighbours are probably grateful I got the feet straps

[short yew]

rockin' dem crocks!!

[vast tangle]

So, I tried ditching a knee tracker for a chest tracker, and I love it, however, I have issues with the straps. I can’t seem to keep it in place very well, and any tiny movement makes the avatar go hunchback. My shirt keeps moving the strap when I move my arms. Any suggestions?

I’m thinking I’m gonna need something like a gopro harness but I really don’t want to do that if I don’t have to

[robust tangle]

"elbows+chest only" gives weird leg roll that I've never seen in any other setup, not sure if it's my avatar but they've never done this

[devout current]

I think elbow + hip would probably be better if you only have 3 trackers available

[robust tangle]

it's meant for sitting VR, i have no need to track my hip

[devout current]

Ahh

[robust tangle]

it's just better upperbody tracking

[devout current]

Hm, I assume Kung didn't really plan for people using chest without hip

[robust tangle]

it does work

just weird leg rolls when they are fully stretched

[devout current]

Wdym with leg roll?

[grand lynx]

anyone having issues with all lock, back is arching like crazy

[robust tangle]

That's expected. Can't affix two points on a chain without creating slack.

let one drift or the other

or reduce the distance between the model's head and hip

[woven gulch]

For FBT. The viewpoint position is actually important too because the way the IK aligns your head to your feet is slightly different, which can cause severe arches

I think in FBT the viewpoint vertically aligns with the toe head/foot tail and everyone adjusts to maintain that

[vast tangle]

So if I’m having issues with my avatar hunching over when using a chest tracker should the viewpoint be moved forwards?

Also about chest trackers

Do gopro chest harnesses hold the tracker at a good position for tracking?

[rustic berry]

yes

(to the latter)

tweaking viewpoint is indeed something you can mess with to improve tracking

[vast tangle]

Alright, I figured the gopro mount would hold it too low

[grand lynx]

Weird, been testing 11 point with all lock since the start of the beta, it just started doing this as of last night.

Thought my height was off or something, but I checked everything.

[robust tangle]

It was doing it in beta for me

still does it in live

[vast tangle]

I have the opposite issue with the back hunching

[marsh elm]

If you look down to combat gamer neck syndrome on lock all

The back arches a lot

[vast tangle]

?

[marsh elm]

this

[vast tangle]

This “gamer neck” issue would be my issue then right?

[marsh elm]

probably

you do lock all?

[vast tangle]

Yes

[marsh elm]

then yyeah

[vast tangle]

The other modes effectively disable the chest tracking

[marsh elm]

the back bones are too long for your torso so they gotta buckle one way or another

either backwards, causing hunching

or forwards causing arching

[vast tangle]

So it’s an issue with my rig?

[marsh elm]

my avatars look better with arching so that's how it be

kek

[marsh elm]

not really an issue, but i guess it is caused by the rig

messing with the viewpoint can help as well

or so i've read

[elder cove]

has anyone noticed if there is a big performance difference with 3 trackers vs the 8 trackers, both from your viewpoint or when other people see you moving?

[lethal light]

yes, more trackers are more accurate, although the jump from 3 > 8 is not as noticeable as from 0 > 3 because diminishing returns exist. If you are extremely pick about movement and having an accurate representation of your movement in game, I would say it is generally worth it. If you don't care as much, save the money

[elder cove]

thanks @lethal light . 5 more usb ports and trackers is definitely not easy. I was more considered about whether my movements would look laggy to others since that occasionally happens with 3, guessing with 8 its similar.

[lethal light]

define laggy? The IK has a set update rate that does not change.
Also, with tundra dongles you can have up to 4 trackers per usb port

[elder cove]

if you've seen anyone dance in vrchat, sometimes their movements are laggy (which might just depend on your internet connection). Would 8 trackers make this worse/happen more often

im not very knowledgeable about the tech behind ik tracking, which is why i asked

also, tundra dongles! where was this 1 year ago. buying one now

sold out 💀

[lethal light]

I mean, the only lag I have noticed from dancing is me running at like 15-25fps. You would have to send a video of what you are talking about for lag if you want me to understand

[lethal light]

xD, eternally sold out they are

[rustic berry]

no. NetIK syncs all of the muscle values. the only thing the extra tracking points do is change how the IK places certain joints, which in turn will result in slightly different muscle values being sent over the network

laggy movement for others might be due to poor performance on their end

[digital grove]

It likely doesn't have the same proportions as you. I.e. the spine is longer than yours, so lock all causes that in that case

[digital grove]

Lagging movement might also be an indication that they are not using Vive trackers but instead Kinect or slime/haritorax

[digital grove]

After like 2 years of waiting for their Kickstarter, they had a "release" that lasted like 30 seconds and then they were sold out. It's been like 4 months now and also they still haven't delivered those sales

[marsh elm]

tundra moment

[digital grove]

Also one of their main appealing features was the price (cheaper than Vive 3.0) but now they are only $10 USD cheaper

So it's kinda meh for me now

The super dongles seem convenient tho

[marsh elm]

conveniently waits 3 months

[elder cove]

oh damn. guess that's a kickstarter project for ya.

[digital grove]

:Harold:

[elder cove]

https://tenor.com/view/fail-faliure-emoji-discord-flushed-gif-20547117

[digital grove]

Not planning to use nitro boosts on this server

[silent mirage]

I wait for 6 month to get Tundra Trackers. (deliver to Taiwan)

[maiden rock]

so with the lock both neck weirdness, or what people have described as pidgeon neck, what is actually happening? Is the head bone root attempting to move forward (bending the neck) to the same Z position as the hip bone root, because it's expecting a vertically straight line between the hips and head as per https://aleasevr.gumroad.com/l/ik2rig?

[lethal bridge]

pretty sure in most cases it's the solver prioritizing a bend at the neck and chest

the bone alignment is for calibration purposes, bends in the spine chain during calibration will be used as additional slack for the solver

I think it's possible to reduce some extreme neck bends if the solver bent the spine a bit more, but obviously that comes at the cost of the entire upper body popping in and out more vs the neck area

[robust tangle]

Imagine you grab a chain-link at two different points with each hand. That’s your spine when you say “lock my head and hip to these coordinates”. Now move your hands closer together. The chain bends. It’s longer than the distance between points it needs to hook up to. That’s most avatars.

you should let your head or your hip drift so that differences between the spine of the avatar and distance is between your real life body don’t matter, but if you’re going to lock both, they’re going to absolutely matter as when your head gets slightly closer to your hip some of the bones are going to buckle because you said they had to perfectly match both locations at once.

Since the neck tends to be the smallest bone in the chain it’s the first to bend to cover the slack

[maiden rock]

so phase 1 complete straight line from hip to head seems to have fixed the standing posture and neck is lengthened correctly

[robust tangle]

You’ll never fix it perfectly; if you compress your spine a little bit in real life it’s going to buckle again since the virtual avatar has far less points of articulation to compress in

[maiden rock]

but when angling the head down, its bending at the base of the neck bone and going pigeon

[robust tangle]

The only real solution is to choose whether you want the head to perfectly match or you want the hip to perfectly match; if you want to get rid of all slack, you need to choose which one will drift to cover the slack

Real life bodies are squishy; Even if you got the proportions exactly right you’re able to compress or stretch your real life spine a little, and the avatar is not able to do that. So the neck effect will always be there in certain poses, Unless you choose to let one of them drift a little to fix it

[maiden rock]

only reason im locking both is to transform the chest

[robust tangle]

Could be mistaken but I’m pretty sure the chest is the same regardless of which mode you were in. The option says lock all but it’s really lock both. (Hip and head)

[maiden rock]

nope

rotation only in lock to head or hips only

rotation and transform in lock both

[robust tangle]

Just going to have to deal with the fact that you’re asking it a mathematical impossibility then - it MUST buckle to hit all the goals you are requesting. Can’t do everything you want and also not have any bends

[maiden rock]

its an IK problem end of the day, 11pt works fine in neos and liv with chest isolation

[robust tangle]

Fairly sure they resize bones on the fly

[raw wadi]

The chest will move in translation i think

[maiden rock]

I tried it last night

i can rotate my hips and chest independently in lock hips mode quite nicely, can't translate it sideways, until i switch to lock both

[robust tangle]

What about Lockhead

[maiden rock]

i generally don't use lock head, but I can try later

[robust tangle]

That’s always my go to since non full body is always Lock head, Dislike the change in behavior when full body gets activated

Seeing my head suddenly at a different location relative to myself is very immersion breaking

[maiden rock]

I never notice that issue as my avatar is scaled to my irl body

[robust tangle]

If that’s the case then you probably wouldn’t notice a difference between lockhead and lock all

If the head doesn’t slack the hip isn’t going to slack either

[maiden rock]

I shouldn't

[robust tangle]

Let me know what you end up seeing with Lockhead

I don’t have a chest tracter myself

[maiden rock]

but i'm starting to feel like you need to place the head bone root at the base of your IRL neck

[robust tangle]

Fairly sure that should give you neos behavior

[robust tangle]

You don’t

[maiden rock]

it's not bending correctly

and ive gone to some ridiculous lengths to match up my irl bone joints

[robust tangle]

Like I said check lock head mode pretty sure that will match the behavior you see in neos

Neos fakes it as well

[maiden rock]

the problem is lack of documentation

and how final ik is doing this shit

[robust tangle]

I can find someone else with a chest tracker and ask them to try Lockhead instead and report back to you if it worked or not if you like

If you don’t want to risk trying it yourself

[maiden rock]

i can when i get a free moment

[lean badger]

@oak pendant for chest trackers, would a "lock hip & chest" option make sense? I feel like a lot of avatars (a lot not necessarily fitted to me) get neck disappearance problems with "lock all", even in the presence of a chest tracker.

I guess messing around with viewpoint position might help in some of these situations (my impression thus far), but viewpoint is usually set up a bit so-so on most bases, unless you go to the effort of fixing it for yourself.

[rustic berry]

tbh, I like that idea. not sure how hard that would be to implement

should make a canny post for that @lean badger

put it in the IK2 category

[lean badger]

My guess is that a risk in this is making neck look not-wierd will require viewpoint drifting far more than regular "lock hip", so I'd like to hear the opinions of people who understands IK better than me.

but... neck snap sucks...

[maiden rock]

bikini so marking spoiler, straight spine

[lethal bridge]

It's clearly stated in documentation that lock all is the only one that uses chest translation. Both lock hips and head only allow a chest rotation influence

[lethal bridge]

Something you'll notice is that the neck-head bone is somewhat stiff, so the moment the distance between headset and chest tracker gets shorter, the joint between the neck and upper chest pops out backwards to compensate.

[maiden rock]

so kung mentioned that it was better to put the chest tracker as high as possible

so I have it high across my sternum, rather than further down where the ribs meet the xiphoid process

[marsh elm]

as high as possible

neck tracking

[lean badger]

I already have it fairly high up, but I will have to try that.

Also going to have to find a better strap. The one I'm currently using is just an extra hip strap I have.

[maiden rock]

im using a custom printed tundra chest mount based on a gopro chest mount

[lean badger]

What works against neck snap for me currently is moving up a little with play space mover while calibrating (using legacy calibration). Results vary based on avatar though.

@maiden rock oh, do you know which chest strap and the 3d model?

[digital grove]

does your avatar have an upper chest bone

[maiden rock]

yep

[maiden rock]

https://twitter.com/captaincatvr/status/1501221579862290433

captaincat (@captaincatvr)

Made a chest mount @Tundra_Labs tracker base with an optional @Woojer bracket for the backside. Also included a version for 1/4" mounts. Seems to help stop the Woojer from sliding around while dancing and simplify things! https://t.co/uBinO6OeZK

Twitter · Mar 8, 2022, 3:41 PM

[lean badger]

oh, most of mine don't have an upper chest bone, I think

[lean badger]

now just to wait for china to unf**k itself, so I can get my tundra trackers...

[marsh elm]

straighest spine i've ever seen in vrchat

[quasi sable]

pretty avatar

[maiden rock]

yeah ive straightened it on purpose

[digital grove]

doesn't it need a curve ideally?

[maiden rock]

if it was realistic sure, but this is IK2.0, all the examples say to use a straight spine

i.e. https://aleasevr.gumroad.com/l/ik2rig

[digital grove]

ah it was the knees that needed to be a bit bent https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/full-body-tracking

[maiden rock]

yeah elbows and knees

[raw wadi]

not anymore with the ik pose it seen

[digital grove]

It Def still says in the docs knees need a bend

[devout current]

Yeah, about that.... 😅
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/chest-bone-gets-moved-back-when-its-not-directly-above-spine-tilted-a-bit

[maiden rock]

I tried a couple of things, shortened my avatar's neck length to make it the same as my irl, as the shoulders were the only thing that were a little off, no difference

then I noticed if I tilted the hmd down, it seemed to have a form of pivot effect, and lengthened the neck enough to reduce the issue.

going further I calibrated whilst the frunk/hmd was slightly tilted up, and then tilted it back down a little again after calibration, and it almost completely removed the issue, I even tried sitting down and it was still good, what the....

experimenting with changing how far forward or backward the avatar descriptor was made no difference

nor did changing the length and position of the neck bone and head bone root

[maiden rock]

Confirmed with two others that this workaround also alleviated the same issue for them

Threw the findings in to https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/in-lock-both-mode-spine-scrunching-pathologically-overbends-the-neck for what it's worth

[wispy coyote]

ummm，is there anyway that to disable auto-footstep，without using action

[lethal bridge]

the locomotion toggle under the IK dropdown in the quickmenu?

[wispy coyote]

ah......is in unity job,not the game

[raw wadi]

Animate the feet

[marsh elm]

animated feet 😳

[vital inlet]

toes toes toes toes toes toes toes 🥺

[marsh elm]

😩 👉 👈

[timber grove]

💯🗿😎

toes

[marsh elm]

aite, chest tracking is pretty cool if you lock all

[maiden rock]

Revised the avatar hips to head chain to retain the original body shape with a straight spine, still need to use the tip up and calibrate workaround to make it look good, and there's still examples of the neck IK stuggling in the footage.

Some dancing to go with it

[marsh elm]

I feel like the answer will be "bad avi proportions" but anyone knows to to stop my chest arching the fuck forward when my character sits down on lock all? (Feet, hips, chest tracking)

Works fine for standing up 🤔

(new to anything >3 point, so I don't know what y'all have discovered so far)

[devout current]

Btw am I the only one who feels like the spine / chest is a bit to static? Like it will always be at the same yaw as the hip.

[maiden rock]

With a chest tracker you'll be able to isolate the hip direction from the chest

[devout current]

Yup I tested 11point (technically 9 point as we had no knees) and the chest feelt really good

[maiden rock]

head - > chest - > hips can all independently point different directions

[devout current]

I would have hoped that even without a chest tracker it would move a bit more and not just be static above the hip

[maiden rock]

I guess its kung playing it safe with the computed rotation

[devout current]

probably

[maiden rock]

IRL measurement reference image to go with my above recent videos (these are meshes in a dedicated collection group, that toggle)

Dimensions are in meters, all positions are measured whilst wearing VR running shoes, so avatar is designed to wear flat shoes to match (she usually has sandals here, but they are disabled with UDIM UV coordinate discard animation in poiyomi v8).

[raw wadi]

It will probably never be perfect. Neck issue seen to be existing regardless

A simple variation of posture can give different results.

[vast tangle]

Is it normal for avatars knees to snap to being fully straight before my foot touches the ground? Like there’s a good two inches of my foot off the ground before the avatars knees bend

This happens to me on almost every avatar, is it proportion related?

Yes my height is set correctly, I use wingspan measurement because on height measurement the issue happens to the arms instead which is arguably worse

Another thing to point out is that the trackerball for the foot trackers lines up roughly at the avatars shins while I wear the trackers on the tops of my feet

[frigid fossil]

all of those side effects you just described are basically the definition of mismatched proportions.

[marsh elm]

Lol

Only one of them's gonna fit well on an avatar with mismatched proportions, and you chose wingspan

[vast tangle]

Guess I just have weird proportions

It happens to every avatar

Even default robot kyle

I’m 5’5” and I have yet to find an avatar (other than a Mozzie avatar funnily enough) where this doesn’t happen to me

Kinda fitting that a Mozzie avatar works for me, he’s the shortest R6 operator

So does this mean the avatars legs need to be taller?

On height measurement my elbows lock when I put my arms out, on wingspan measurement the knees lock

So either make the arms longer or the legs longer, which sounds more correct?

The hands feel abnormally large in wingspan measurement mode

:o the arms must be too short no?

[vast tangle]

So what do you suggest

[marsh elm]

1 get used to it

2 make your own avi with proper sizings

3 perish

[vast tangle]

I know I can’t fix it for other avatars

[marsh elm]

Your options

Choose

[vast tangle]

But I can for my own. How though

Feels to me like the arms are too short but IDK

[marsh elm]

Take pictures ingame with trackers on your joints vs the avatar

Then go in blender and adjust limb sizes to match your pictures

Rinse and repeat until you feel it matches enough

[vast tangle]

Well how do I know if it’s the arms or legs that need to be adjusted, which measurement mode should I do this in

Another thing is can I just stretch the bones in pose mode then use CATS to apply as rest pose?

The fact that the hands get bigger when switching from height to wingspan makes me think my arms are longer than average, so it has to scale up the avatar to match my disproportionate wingspan

[devout current]

They get bigger because the scaling of the Avatar changes.

[vast tangle]

So the avatars arms are too short?

[devout current]

If you use height based scaling and your feel like your arms are to short, then yes they are.

[hasty ferry]

God damn, they really did it

👏

[vast tangle]

Indeed

[grand lynx]

While this is the correct answer in the short term. Most of the user base do not create their own avatars and likely will not take the time to learn blender to custom fit them to their own proportions. So it's my hope that there will be further adjustments to all lock.

[vast tangle]

This isn’t even related to all lock

It’s the fact that my arm to leg length ratio isn’t exactly normal apparently

[marsh elm]

if someone doesnt adjust the avatar to you, you don't lock all ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[vast tangle]

Eeeeeeeeeeee

[marsh elm]

it aint magic

[vast tangle]

Me arms are longer than the average 5’5” person, that’s the issue

[marsh elm]

lol really

did you google the average?

[vast tangle]

All evidence points to such

I have this issue with every avatar, either the elbows lock in height mode or the knees lock in wingspan mode

As if the avatars arms are shorter than mine

[marsh elm]

welp... 😆

[vast tangle]

There’s a good 2 inches of movement before the knee or elbow starts to bend

Past that they’re stiff

Looks like I’m always standing at attention

This is fixed by increasing my world scale override to 103% but obviously that’s not an optimal solution and causes other issues elsewhere

[grand lynx]

Until further changes are made. I'd like to see more people take advantage of it.

[marsh elm]

take advantage of lock all?

[grand lynx]

Yeah there are some great dancers out there that aren't familiar with blender that just use public avatars in general. I know right now that the answer is that lock all requires specfic proportions, but who knows what the future holds.

[vast tangle]

Lock all works just fine for me

Just the arm lengths are wrong

Hell I even use a chest tracker lately

[maiden rock]

Why is it so vague

If lock all requires specific proportions, what exactly is it we should be verifying

[prisma meadow]

id love at least an avatar example that works really well to work off of. but right now it seems like its just trial and error

[vast tangle]

i did it

my proportions are now correct

it required moving the hands 0.03 units further away from the center

[prisma meadow]

got a pic of the bones?

[vast tangle]

or 3cm really

these are for my IRL proportions though

[prisma meadow]

so you are using no upperchest then

[vast tangle]

nop

should I be?

[prisma meadow]

there are pros and cons

[vast tangle]

the biggest of which being?

[prisma meadow]

upperchest allows the ik more room to move around but you lose more control over your upper chest

[maiden rock]

When my PSU arrives I'm going to do my 11pt IK tests again but using scale by arm length, using my custom ratio, instead of avatar height. Technically there shouldn't be any difference but I wonder if that does provide different results for the neck bone behaviour.

Would be interesting to know if anyone has a good working example of lock both mode working with scale by height

[raw wadi]

ik is smoothed remotely anyway so it's no so snappy on their side

[robust tangle]

Which I must say is not exactly a good thing. Fast movements get deleted entirely

[zenith glacier]

better than seeing the wobbliness of most peoples tracker. If someone records you compared you record yourself you will notice how much the smoothing helps out

[marsh elm]

i wish i could see myself the same way other people do.

i never know if people are seeing this or that due to network smoothing

[robust tangle]

Honestly disagree. Tracking was wobblier before network IK and the same rate reduced, but there was no big delay like there is now, and you could see all the subtle movements of their head and hands, body language was much easier to communicate without exaggeration.

🤷‍♀️

bad tracking is a hardware problem to solve

[zenith glacier]

to each their own, but whenever i see dancing/showcase videos where people record themselves seeing the constant jitter especially around hip/feet area makes me enjoy networked, smoothed ik way more

[marsh elm]

no mounting solution can get rid of IMU jolting around from harsher movements

tbh

network smoothing cleans up this jitteriness nicely

[vast tangle]

Network IK smoothing completely ruins it for me when I throw my tracker violently at the nearest solid object. Removes all dramatic effect it may have had

[marsh elm]

i- uh

[vast tangle]

[marsh elm]

i dont think they took gamer rage into account

[vast tangle]

[maiden rock]

Would like to see a neosvr thing come over to vrchat, local smoothing

Vtubers won't look so scuffed when they make fast movements

[quasi sable]

Is local smoothing for the IK?

[maiden rock]

it stops the vibrating/judder

smooths out the position, by allowing you to specify different amounts of interpolation

[dusk anvil]

i dont think the network ik was expecting you to throw your tracker into the wall at 70 mph, xevian.

[vast tangle]

[raw wadi]

Does the upper legs and hip need to be aligned still or we still get that rotation if we don't ?

[maiden rock]

Think it still needs a very small offset in front of the leg root

[maiden rock]

I wanted to suggest providing user configurable smoothing options to reduce the jitter and wobbling for local tracking experience and recording/streaming. I'm not sure if this falls under the IK category though.

[raw wadi]

Sure

[harsh lagoon]

That would be pretty nice I had thought about that in the shower a few times

[hasty ferry]

Imo this would be more of a suggestion for the ones providing the tracking solution.

SlimeVR, KinectToVR and most other non lighthouse tracked solution have options for smoothing, so maybe what we need here is a suggestion for SteamVR for their tracking solutions

[marsh elm]

i wonder if it's possible to build a driver to "middleman" these tracking solutions

to put effects like smoothing in there

[elfin relic]

Didn't have that feature, but openvr-inputemulator would have been capable of that I believe, but it was using bugs to work and apparently does not work anymore.

But honestly this isn't something that we should add to steamvr, that will add double smoothing, this should be a VRChat feature.

[vast tangle]

Yes. It is possible. You can theoretically emulate any device if you wanted to. LucidVR works by emulating a Knuckles controller using data from an ESP32. So long as SteamVR receives the right data it will work.

[lethal bridge]

The driver would be easy. The problem would be how vrchat would choose which tracker to use, as you now have 2 trackers occupying the exact same space

[iron hamlet]

I'd love to have an option like this, so here's my +1

• for local recording/streaming purposes as Towneh already mentioned, see example video-snippet below
• I got chronic tremors in both hands, so handling precise GUI-stuff like camera-controls/lens-positioning for me is a constant jittery nightmare 🙈 💦 🙈

The Vive 3.0 trackers I use are fixxed to my dance-sneakers using cable-ties, no whiggling-room to speak of - every strap I tried was way worse (even trackstraps)!
Still the Vives are that sensitive to pickup the floorboard below my carpet rebouncing slightly when I go all out dancing...

Examples:
https://youtu.be/byRrbaDFpzU?t=81
https://youtu.be/byRrbaDFpzU?t=437

left network-IK -> smooth legs/feet
right (me) local-IK -> vive 3.0s > leg/feet jitter-galore

(6-point-tracking on the 1st ik-2 open-beta btw)

[final raven]

Noticed like two things tonight. You can't stutter step in SDK2 worlds if you turn your locomotion animations off in the QM settings, and if you're low enough to the ground in FBT to be considered crouched or prone and have locomotion enabled, the locomotion doesn't play regardless.

[tranquil cipher]

yeah that's how prone has always worked

[final raven]

Fair point yeah. Although I could've sworn that wasn't always the case. 🤔

[glacial roost]

hello, i wanted to know if anyone got the same issues as me with ik 2.0.
So i modified my avatar prior to this update to be ready, i modified the whole armature to respect everything that ik 2.0 need, but i also did those modification:
-i removed upper chest, to have only a chest bone that is twice as long as the spine or hips bone.
-i took also measurement of all my limbs as precise as i can (down to the cm precision to have a really close armature to my real body.

but whatever i do, even if i use the old avatar that doesn't have that setup it seem that my view point never want to be at the same spot, whatever i choose (locking head, locking hips, and even both) I always get a different result but none get close to my viewpoint I've set in unity. even with public avatar it seem that the viewpoint is never at the right spot.

I also found that if I move with the thumbstick my viewpoint suddenly snap in the right position and everything seem perfect, but only if I move. Even when I'm trying to calibrate this issue seem to be here

this issue drive me crazy, it look like i'm never calibrated correctly and it bring me back to when i had really big viewport issue with the old ik

[raw wadi]

Maybe have the avatar place more forward or backward by default.

[glacial roost]

you mean the humanoid setup ?

[glacial roost]

i mean, it could be that, but why is it doing it to every avatar even the public one, event the fallbacks

i figured that if i bend my spine when i'm in both head and hips locked, it crush the neck completely instead of bending the chest, with every avatar again

[icy ferry]

then maybe don't share that as a message here??

[devout current]

That's know and something Kung wants to improve.

If it's important for you that your view point is always correct, you should use lock head.

And also why did you removed the upper chest? That's now finally actually used with IK 2.0.

[glacial roost]

they should just get the humanoid muscle setup before doing ik, because if you change neck nod up/down muscle settings in unity vrchat will do the ik as if the neck nod up/down didn't changed, if i reset my muscle setting to 0 it seem to be better, but my neck is completely crushed

[glacial roost]

i did added it but the neck was even worse

so i removed it

[devout current]

While Locomoting aka walking with your thumbstick your avatar will be put in to lock head, that's why you notice your avatar "jumping" a bit forward or backwards when you are in lock hip / lock hip & head.

[devout current]

Lock Head & Hip has neck issues currently.

[glacial roost]

it doing it in all setup, even in head lock

[devout current]

Then something is wrong with your rig, cause that normally can't happen outside of Loch Head & Hip

[glacial roost]

it's doing it with all avatar even with the fallback alien, you can really notice it wen callibrating

[devout current]

That's weird, you are the first one I hear complaining about it

[glacial roost]

yeah i know,

i found a friend that have the same issue, but none other noticed it

[devout current]

Do you have client modifications installed?

[glacial roost]

the real issue issue for me is not about the movement but the fact that when i calibrate the view point is not in the right place, but the calibration work as normal, it's just weird and i have to "not match" my trackers to my hips to callibrate correctly

[devout current]

Oh yeah in connection with this:

[barren creek]

Modification of the VRChat application

There are NO "modifications" of the VRChat client that are considered safe or allowed, no exceptions.

Any application that interacts or modifies the VRChat application is a violation of the Terms of Service, and using it will result in your account being banned.

[glacial roost]

no it's doing it since the first release

[devout current]

Hmm

[glacial roost]

hope it will get corrected because they could ignore it it's only visual, the callibration still work as the viewpoint never moved

[devout current]

Without there being 1. a canny for it, and 2. a way to reproduce it, there isn't much they can do sadly.

[barren creek]

What do you need help with?

[devout current]

Anything in the works for IK2 right now? e.g. Neck behaviour in Lock Both, Arms close to their shoulders, or angled spines / chests

[smoky ermine]

Yo should I lock hip before or after sitting down

Or before or after calibration

[marsh elm]

order doesnt matter, you can change the lock modes whenever

just pick what feels better for what you are doing

[robust tangle]

it is not a calibration thing

[flint tapir]

how do i stop being calibrated "in front" of my avatar

[devout current]

wdym?

If it is what it sounds like, maybe the view point is not in the correct position

[jovial shadow]

Yes that happens when the viewpoint is set too far in front of the face

[final raven]

👀

[icy ferry]

i'm assuming that being in progress means more than just that position being fixed/touched up for elbows so it'll be nice to see how things change

[jovial shadow]

[devout current]

I wonder when we will get to see those changes

Maybe this week? :o

[vast tangle]

I’ve still never experienced this issue

[devout current]

Idk how you are not having it xD