Is there a reason why Particles with Velocity Over Lifetime where Space is set to World doesn't actually set it to World?
#avatar-optimization
cold lark
patent inlet
How the hell do you even get the poly count so high, I feel like you're trying to break a record at that point
heady smelt
355 million is my record in unity
patent inlet
HOW
leaden carbon
Could someone @ me I’ll be gone after posting this for awhile. I have a question and it’s that when I move my object with armature in it some of the parts I didn’t weight paint move with it as well. Like I’ll move the arm but the hair comes with. Can anyone help me?
sweet mason
bad weightpain or wrong parented bone
simple steppe
Hello everyone. I got a question for some here, but I am not sure if this is the right channel for it??? I just got done with a texture atlas on a model. Material works and all. However, when I export it as FBX and place it in unity. The model is non-existent (no invisible material). Nothing... I would appreciate the help.
leaden carbon
Thanks
hoary juniper
@simple steppe Make sure shader is an Opaque or Cutout one and the material's Colour is not transparent
midnight birch
Heya guys, new here so I apologize if my question is a little bit simple but I need some help with my model. My model has a skirt but the material it is made from seems to be a bit stiff, and my characters legs clip through it. The skirt is a separate object from the rest of the characters body, I don't know if that's related but figured I'd say anyway (I have both Unity and Blender). Any and all help will be appreciated!
storm raptor
For future reference, this is not really the right channel for that type of issue, but I'm not really sure which channel it should belong in.
As for resolving it, that depends on how the skirt movement is done.
woeful ember
if you wanna prevent clipping you wanna weight paint the skirt to the thigh bones
if instead you simply want some movement to make it more natural try incorporating dynamic bones
storm raptor
If it uses dynamic bones, lowering the rigidity and adding dynamic bone colliders on the character's thighs should work.
If it uses Unity's cloth component, you can add colliders to the cloth component.
keen osprey
i was able to crunch down quite a bit on this
reason why it was so high is due to substance painter liking lots of seperate materials
i think i can get it even lower
keen osprey
Rero standard
Or xiexie
Current textures I'm using is Diffuse, Normal, Metallic, Roughness
magic locust
Rero standard is so good
clear pelican
Can anyone help me with getting my avatar Quest ready? I have no modelling experience. My avatar is 8k with 2 materials
surreal topaz
Has anyone ever successfully manually atlased normal maps?
solid smelt
Yeah just have the normal maps as the main texture on the model then bake that with the same UV you baked the albedo on.
surreal topaz
Alright, thanks. I only ever saw people mention it but never heard of people actually doing it
Just wanted to ask for advice for stuff to look out for, I'll try that thanks
marsh trail
Also did it for other kinds of maps, without any noticeable issues, such as emission, specular and so on so forth, obviously if you want to use different values for different areas you'd need to keep them un-atlased, but other than that they should work just fine as the UV mapping will be identical
pine flame
Make sure you use the base normal map color for places that don’t have a normal map
surreal topaz
Oh yeah, that too
sweet mason
I could
cyan sonnet
Hi
covert peak
hi
ember ibex
what is the maximum allowed atlas resolution? I have a feeling vrchat is downscaling my textures
still perch
there is no limit, however you should not go higher then 4k if there is no absolutely needed reason
make sure that you set unit's settings to the right size of the texture tho
Unity does not automatically do that for higher rez textures
magic locust
I've found that baking the atlas at 4k and then using unitys downscaling works best
ember ibex
yes, I am using a 4k atlas, but the max size for the texture was set to 2k in unity settings
setting it to 4k fixed the issue
thanks for the help
heady smelt
Hey guys. How do I get my avatar to have glowing eyes and parts? Is there a sertain program or edit I need to use?
marsh trail
Emission, which is an option on most shaders
shut sequoia
pine flame
Unity’s maximum texture resolution is actually 8k, and anything above 1k I’d recommend compressing
sweet mason
The eyes need to be assign to a différent material.( if you want another type of effect)
dark storm
actually you can use emission mapping on the same shader if it allows it, and keep it on the same material
depends on what kind of effect you are going for
surreal topaz
Yeah you don't need a separate shader for emission
Just make an emission map, it's really easy to make
Pretty much every shader supports it
@sweet mason
muted ledge
mellow pike
i cant figure out how to join materials.... i have 19
sweet mason
they have the same texture ?
mellow pike
ya 3 face texutes
sweet mason
show a screenshot or something. that help to see
patent leaf
This timestamp goes through the combination process
https://youtu.be/VBZu_wNzERw?t=874
mellow pike
got it thanks
storm ingot
@muted ledge i do it by setting the brightness over 1 (so 1.05 etc (basically brightness to 105+%
shut sequoia
He should be able to join all those meshes in Maya I'm assuming
vocal panther
It's perfect within unity
shut sequoia
And atlas, etc
still perch
calm spade
Do the mesh joining in blender then ?
vocal panther
It scuffs it to hell if exported as an FBX then back to unity
calm spade
How so ? What is the file extension from maya ?
opal pecan
Is blender losing object level transforms on the import or something?
vocal panther
the export from maya is an FBX. I'm no sure why it gets so offset in blender atm.
Even opens perfectly within windows 3d paint
going to go to #3d-modeling, it feels more appropriate.
vivid crest
I haven't had any issues exporting from Maya to blender
@vocal panther this is how you combine meshes and keep weights/skins. it can be iffy and break things. make sure you have a backup
sweet mason
the sdk dont update. use pumpkin https://github.com/rurre/PumkinsAvatarTools
woeful ember
perhaps you are using dynamic bone limiter? or maybe it's a dynamic bone script version issue
besides that make sure you have the correct unity version 🤷
sand oak
do you have t hem disabled in-
yeah, what rappy just said
there's a dynamic bone limiter in the security tab now
sweet mason
🤷 give up i guess
but you should have max 32 transform still or people wont see it move ether
sweet mason
I think its mosly material that kill the performance
sand oak
well afaik it's mostly dynbones and everything that runs primarily on the CPU
because multithreading and such
surreal topaz
A lot of stuff can kill performance
The dynamic bone limiter in its current state ensures that people will keep asking this question over and over again
limber vale
@heady smelt did u upload them using the correct unity?
limber vale
did u ever see them before?
heady smelt
no
limber vale
than something went wrong either, u didnt upload them using the correct unity version or there was something on the models that caused them not to upload
limber vale
mhm, i would try reuploading them
maybe in a new project. but idk why it would show up in the skd upload menu and not in game
surreal topaz
You're probably logged into the wrong account
Do you have a more complete unity window screenshot?
limber vale
^ could be
heady smelt
i have only one accaunt
surreal topaz
@heady smelt I can see very clearly in this screenshot that you are using an incorrect version of Unity. https://discordapp.com/channels/189511567539306508/361742235525709825/570015110542786590
As the SDK tells you several times
You have to use Unity 2017.4.15f1. Do not update if it prompts you.
limber vale
he was using .25 big rip XD nice catch @surreal topaz
heady smelt
I USE THIS 2017.4.15f1 VERSION
limber vale
look in the top left
surreal topaz
You probably updated when it asked you to
limber vale
uninstall unity, than download the correct version, easy fix
heady smelt
ok i have auto update in the Windows option this is the why
now i dawnload the correct version
ok i have the correct version but i open the wrong one
limber vale
uninstall the other version
limber vale
because u still have the one installed?
visual scroll
so i removed snail marker to improve avatar rank, decrased dynamic bones transforms to 31, but they still wont work with Dynamic Bones Limiter turned on
Is there any reasons for them to not work?
surreal topaz
end length counts @visual scroll
patent leaf
I've seen that said couple times but I haven't got that reflect onto me
Re-read, quickly read past the limiter part =.= Although end length is not counted to my total transform and it keeps me still at 16
marsh trail
The limiter takes end lengths into account in its calculations, but the avatar stats menu does not
surreal topaz
No
This does not appear to be an optimization question
You have mesh colliders on planes and quads usually
nocturne quarry
I have a quick question if anybody knows: Does GPU instacing actually increase performance?
Or affect it at all?
pine flame
Yes, it decreases load on the cpu
Draw calls are expensive in VRChat
So it’s faster to batch up materials and send them in a single draw call (well plus one for each light)
If you have 20 materials for instance you definitely want them batched
Keep in mind only identical materials can be batched so remember to atlas anyways
patent leaf
I guess it really makes more sense for public avatars and worlds
gleaming yacht
@pine flame You just conflated Batching and Instancing.
surreal topaz
@nocturne quarry since this is the avatar optimization channel, it should be noted that GPU Instancing pretty much doesn't work on avatars.
Well it does, under the right circumstances. But those circumstances are very rare.
Any kind of batching or instancing won't work on skinned mesh renderers, which most avatars are.
So it only works on non-skinned meshes, and only if you have multiple objects that use the same mesh, and at least use the same shader (preferably the same material). As for them having to use the "same" shader and mesh, this makes it very unlikely to work across two avatars. Every avatar will have their own instance of the mesh (and probably the shader too, if not using Standard)
pine flame
@gleaming yacht my bad, I kind of assumed they meant batching for some reason
surreal topaz
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention is that GPU Instancing will probably work if the avatar is cloned or two people are otherwise using the same avatar with the same ID.
Since cameras seem to share render textures too
gleaming yacht
I am pretty sure light probes break instancing until unity 2018
surreal topaz
Ouch, you're right
The manual says "if the object is affected by different light probes or reflection probes, it cannot be instanced"
So that leads me to think instancing will only work if each mesh shares the same anchor override
Because being off by even the tiniest bit will change the light probe data
And therefore that makes one more situation where you can't realistically use it across avatars, and if it's on the same avatar object you are generally better off merging the meshes anyway
past hull
I'm having a really specific issue with performance on certain ps4 model rips, the models them selves half my frames from 90 to 45 on use but I have done what I can to optimise including atlasing textures down to 3-4, removing excess bones, no cloth or dynamic bones, decimating to 70k, standard shader with a single texture only and no particles. I'm really stumped and willing to take any suggestions.
woeful ember
it might be relative to the head geometry collapsing to one point
it does cause performance loss that varys from avatars
aka for first person view the head geometry is collapsed to one point
i still haven't bothered testing for the specific cause cuz lazy
but technically it isn't halving your frames since that is just due to Async kicking in
surreal topaz
Oh yeah, the head bone shrinking is a good point as well. But why would that cause issues?
past hull
If that would be the case, how could I resolve it?
woeful ember
it does cause performance loss on GPU i'm unsure why exactly
surreal topaz
I'm pretty sure it's worse than just going from 90 to 45 though
I can't imagine why shrinking the head bone would cause issues, unless you have a lot of bones there or tons of vertices. If you're within the poly limit and already merged the extra bones it shouldn't matter either
I do think it may be a face bone related issue since those models have tons of them. You may want to do more tests with models that have most of the bones stripped out.
The faces bones are attached to the head, and it seems the game on occasion may un-shrink children of the head if they're far enough
woeful ember
i had this issue present on an avatar with probably like 20-30 bones with maybe like 5k verts i guess
woeful ember
i need to actually conduct tests for it though to figure out the exact cause
but simple moving the head bone for the point of collapse can improve performance even if it is just a slight adjustment
anyways @past hull have you tried different shaders or just the standard?
past hull
I only really use standard, but I did experiment with others but same results
woeful ember
well if you've experienced this issue without anything else taxing performance then perhaps it is the head geometry collapsing at fault
past hull
Possibly, how did you fix that then?
surreal topaz
If holoport locomotion weren't completely broken you could probably test it using that.
But unfortunately holoport cripples framerate right now
woeful ember
so i don't have a way to really "fix" it as i don't know what exactly causes it
but moving the head bone in Edit mode in blender can help
but to see if it is causing significant loss just simply take the geometry connected to the head bone plus children and move it away from the head
past hull
I'll give it a go now
surreal topaz
Ohh, maybe you can weight the whole head to the neck instead
Just use cats to merge the head into the neck then make a fake head bone
Just as a test
It'll block your view completely but at least you can test
I've seen people lag me by putting all of their ~65k vertices on every single lipsync viseme, so it's not too far out there that the head bone scaling could be causing a lot of extra CPU time on the mesh skinning process
woeful ember
Visual Example *for victrine
the performance loss is GPU
i had a 980 ti for example and got a loss of around .3-1ms
maybe there is CPU loss i dunno but i was intentionally bottlenecking my GPU during some of the tests
woeful ember
so it is probably worth noting that the geometry doesn't get collapsed even when weighted as long as the geometry is away from the head bone as i believe it does some sort of check
past hull
@woeful ember can confirm the head bone was the source of the lag
with the vertexes out of range , I don't get dropped anymore, I just need to find a sweet spot fix then
cedar ice
I seem to be having a problem with optimizing my avatar's meshes. The person who made my model used the transform tool, so it appears only half the mesh exists. How should I fix this?
brisk fossil
relou
sudden zodiac
@cedar ice You could use the mirror modifier to get the other half
cedar ice
And how do I do that? This is my first time using Blender
While I use Unity on a daily basis for work, I haven't worked with models in Blender yet
Never mind
And since there's likely to be people wondering...
woeful ember
@past hull good adjust the head bone and fix weight painting if necessary
just be aware that simply adjusting the head bone might not fix it in its entirety
cedar ice
I clicked the show mesh button, went to the Options tab on the left, and clicked "X Mirror" and "Topology Mirror"
woeful ember
you can also use the mirror modifier @cedar ice
cedar ice
Well, too late
woeful ember
select the mesh and add modifier
cedar ice
Thanks
woeful ember
so @cedar ice it sounds like you mirrored the mesh in edit mode which will probably ruin the shape keys to some degree
to avoid this use the modifier or mirror the mesh in object mode ctrl+M - X
cedar ice
I had a version of the file backed up
So I was able to fix a mess I made with two of the meshes
woeful ember
you can also use Ctrl Z to undo fyi and Shift Ctrl Z to redo
cedar ice
Now, how do I fix the materials? The atlasing tool is different from the video
woeful ember
use shotariya blender addon to generate list and pick the mats to join together
cedar ice
That's the one I'm using, and the one from the video
But the "generate atlas" part is replaced with "save atlas to"
woeful ember
it should be rather straightforward after creating the atlas there should be a combined image in the directory of the blend file
i might have a slightly outdated version of it tbh so idk
save atlas to should work fine
cedar ice
Is it normal for all textures on the model to disappear?
woeful ember
i imagine they give you an option to select the directory now
No
well you are in textured mode still right?
woeful ember
scroll down and you should see the texture location fyi along with the textures assigned to the material at the top
cedar ice
What if the model had no textures to begin with, but just materials?
woeful ember
there should be textures assigned to the material unless you're dealing with a file with only geometry data
cedar ice
That's exactly it
woeful ember
but yeah you can manually assign textures in the slots for said material
cedar ice
Should I upload the Blender file?
woeful ember
nah
did the person provide you a blend file? or anything else?
a .fbx imported should do textures aswell i believe assuming you put the textures in the same folder or whatever local folder it is expecting
cedar ice
Just the .blend file
woeful ember
🤷
the textures can be packed into a .blend file but since you don't see any i assume they didn't
so manually assign textures assuming you have em
if you're still lost give me a screenshot
cedar ice
It seems to work, now I need to import it into Unity
woeful ember
great
cedar ice
Is there a way to embed the textures into the file?
woeful ember
with .blend yeah but there is some complication with importing it into unity
cedar ice
It doesn't seem to want to show the textures in Unity
surreal topaz
You can also embed in FBX, check export settings
Path mode copy, the icon checked next to the path mode
Or just import the textures into Unity first in a "Textures" folder, separately.
woeful ember
ah can you embed it directly into FBX?
cedar ice
Is the texture supposed to look like this?
woeful ember
ah never seen that before neat thanks @surreal topaz
and yeah the texture can look like that @cedar ice
i can't say for sure without seeing the model though
cedar ice
Okay. Well, it's not showing the textures on Unity
woeful ember
yes you gotta assign it to the material
cedar ice
Which it looks like I did
woeful ember
🤷
it should show something assuming it has a UV map and you are applying it to the correct material
cedar ice
woeful ember
cedar ice
Nope
woeful ember
after applying those settings you can find the material for it in material folder
click it and assign the texture to albedo slot
cedar ice
You're a lifesaver
woeful ember
anyways you're probably gonna want a different shader than Standard
cedar ice
I'll worry about it once I get the avatar and bones fixed
The person who made the avatar acknowledged he named the bones wrong
woeful ember
alright
cedar ice
So now how do I move the model and bones as one? The feet are below the ground
woeful ember
move the hips up in the rigging section*
woeful ember
just move the armature up and it should move the model aswell
after moving it up you can press Ctrl+A to apply location
cedar ice
How? All I can do is move the model
woeful ember
oh
woeful ember
press G to move it
woeful ember
you can press G and bind it to an Axis X/Y/Z
aka press G and X to move and bind it to the X Axis
You might also have the armature hidden incase you can't see it
cedar ice
Rest Position is enabled
woeful ember
cedar ice
Welp. I'm on the verge of giving up. I tried using Fix Model, but it deleted the hand bones.
Maybe someone with more experience can fix this.
woeful ember
try toggling that off
cedar ice
I'm really desperate for this to work, so much so that I named the file alyssapleasework.blend
shut sequoia
Lol my unity file was acting up and I named the project last year "fuckunity" and never changed it, still the same name
woeful ember
heady smelt
90% of my project names have fuck _______ depending on what isn’t working for me that day
surreal topaz
I prefix my test projects with _Test so I know I can safely delete them
Usually just random asset imports or fooling around
sweet mason
Since am not attatch to my models that much i often create a new one with less asset. And with the quest. The less asset the faster you can switch betwin
I put like 1 or z infront so easier to find with blender
vale monolith
FUCK
lean relic
How stop following me
tropic rapids
@lean relic that would be an animation thing likely.
heady smelt
A fixed joint @lean relic
fleet steppe
I think that happenes after you use a seat
Oh, wait. that happens when you're using a fixed joint after you use a seat
James already isn't using a fixed joint, I now gather
astral pumice
aight, so I have a problem, when I try upload my avatar it says: The following component types are found on the avatar and will be removed by the client: Spriterenderer. Where can I find spriterenderer, idk even know I had it
amber hemlock
Answered that in #avatars-2-general
When I texture atlas my avatar I’m getting a slight blur in the textures and I can’t figure out why. I’ve made sure the source and destination pixel densities are exactly the same
Same exact coordinates even
surreal topaz
Don't spam across channels lol
amber hemlock
Like copying them in an art program results in conserving the sharpness but not when blender bakes it itself
surreal topaz
If you bake there's gonna be slight quality loss unless you make the UV's a little bit bigger @amber hemlock
I'm making an addon that automatically resizes and arranges UV's for manual atlasing and by default it makes them 10% larger than they have to be
amber hemlock
There’s. No lossless bake?
surreal topaz
Well baking isn't lossless because it's a bake/render
There's bound to be artifacts if you don't make it even slightly bigger
amber hemlock
Like the way I’ve set it up it should just be a 1:1 pixel move
But I’m getting saturation loss and bleed anyway
woeful ember
sounds kinda like compression
amber hemlock
It’s a one so it should be lossless but I guess blender doesn’t move pixels it samples from interpolation between pixels and gets rounding errors
I’ll just move UV islands in blender by whole pixel amounts and manually do the same in gimp to make sure it all stays sharp
Just wish there was an easier way to do it losslessly
But I guess all of Blender’s UV tools were designed around the idea of modeling before texturing which is understandable
surreal topaz
Yeah it doesn't actually move pixels
It just "bakes" them sort of
Well that's exactly what it does
That's why I don't recommend atlasing with UV's that are exactly the same size (or smaller), and why I don't recommend atlasing something that has already been atlased before.
amber hemlock
Thing is cats does it losslessly
So they are doing something different
Cats really does just join images
No loss in texture detail
surreal topaz
Cats stitches the textures together yes
While Blender baking, well, bakes
I think material combiner only bakes for solid colors
Or maybe just hand-draws a color
amber hemlock
Trying to figure out how to pad my atlas up to a power of two in blender so unity doesn’t do it. Unity’s “to larger” introduces artifacting too
And mipmaps + non power of two only works uncompressed which makes my model take a long time to load
So ironically increasing my texture size will make the download smaller ...
surreal topaz
The automatic material combiner can pad it out
And when manual atlasing it's a moot point
nimble ingot
I'm planning on doing something with Behavior Keyframes, but before doing that, there's something I want to confirm.
Right now, my avatar looks a little something like this:
http://prntscr.com/njn7j1
The idea is that I'm going to create a behavior keyframe that switches from the active game object being just Body, to Body Black, turning off Body and only having one mesh active at a time.
Unfortunately, each of these uses a material to do so. So my question is:
Do disabled game objects still process draw calls? I don't think they do, but I want to be sure before creating a laggy monstrosity
surreal topaz
Disabled game objects do not take up drawcalls
nimble ingot
Awesome, thank you.
surreal topaz
And will essentially not cause any performance issues
amber hemlock
They only thing they do is make the avatar download take longer. Disabled meshes and assets are still downloaded as if visible
So it’s still better to delete them if they are never used
surreal topaz
And every game object adds a slight bit of loading time after it hits 100%
But I'm assuming all of these meshes are actually used in animations so no worries
amber hemlock
Is the “armature” gameobject necessary? Cant just be Model/Body and Model/Hips
surreal topaz
Well that's just how Unity imports it
It is necessary because the only way to get rid of it is by using Optimize Game Objects, which only works with animations and breaks the IK.
There's probably no way around that unless Final IK completely reworked itself to only use humanoid, even then I don't know if that's possible.
amber hemlock
Is a model import the only way to get humanoid bindings? Can’t make a pile of unity game objects humanoid without temporarily using model import as a stopgap and the deleting the mesh?
Trying to see if I can make an humanoid avatar 100% within unity no blender or fbx import
surreal topaz
Well technically you can, you can also generate meshes in code for example
You could manually make an asset file with editor scripts perhaps
Or forcibly make an "avatar" out of just a prefab
dark storm
there is a reason 3d modeling software exists, it's an interesting project trying to make an avatar out of just unity parts cobbled together, but it would likely have extremely bad CPU performance issues compared to the standard workflow.
Plus, using 3d modeling / animating software means you get to use their more advanced suite for making animations. I personally like to make all my bone-transform based animations in blender, and then edit the animations in unity if I need to add extra gameobjects turning on and other unity based stuff. I guess that's a topic for another channel though.
another comment on needing the armature, I'm pretty sure you can't paint bone weights in unity, so you'd lose out on that as well.
nimble ingot
One more question regarding behavior keyframes and making sure I'm not making a lag machine. I had to add additional animators, specifically, 2 per object in order to function. However, these animators are disabled until it's time to use the behavior keyframes to make a switch for 30 frames, then they turn off again. These disabled animators shouldn't have a performance impact right?
wheat aurora
nah, you should be fine
even active ones wont matter much
it all comes down to how much stuff they're animating
young tulip
anyone know the loading time difference/performance impact between about five materials with 1k textures vs five materials with 4k textures?
mostly looking for a ballpark if no one knows off the top of their heads
still perch
4k textures should only really be needed for atlases and of those max 2
5x 4k textures are gonna be a huge ram consumption (dunno about how bad the decompression/loading time would be as a comparrison)
fringe wigeon
i wabt to reduce that red how do i do that
i have fixed model and merged all possible bones but i still get this
my bones down to 91 from 187 but yet it still says i have 22 of thise bones
that thing is the only red thing and it dosent even show on unity , i got good performance overall on unity whenever i upload it after i fixed models bones
sweet mason
since there is 2 collider you double or even 4ple the collision check
fringe wigeon
ok so how do i fix that
where so i remove the colider?
is it in the dynamic bone ?
in unity
omg i found it yes i hand 1 fonger from each hand as coliders for 5 dynamic bones i removed them and now its 0 bone colidsion
yay
dark sigil
👌
amber hemlock
If I compress a texture does it actually take up less memory or is it just faster to download but it uncompresses locally?
surreal topaz
Crunch compress you mean?
If you compress the PNG itself literally nothing will happen
If you make the asset smaller by changing the import settings then it will take up less RAM @amber hemlock
But crunch compressed stuff does not take up less VRAM, only regular RAM
amber hemlock
I padded my 3500x3500 texture with transparency to make it 4096x4096 so can be compressed while using mipmaps. This made the file size less than a third seemingly for free. By making the texture BIGGER. Was there a downside here?
surreal topaz
No
amber hemlock
Cool beans
pine flame
Powers of two texture sizes help in a multitude of ways
amber hemlock
If you have non power 2 of with mipmaps the file size is insane
I think in power of two the mipmaps are free or something
surreal topaz
They're not free but they're cheaper
It's just a limitation of texture formats understood by the GPU.
There is no compression method that supports non-POT and mipmaps.
So always keep your textures in powers of two when you can
prime beacon
fyi, dont even bother optimizing DB to be under the limit, im at 14 transforms and 4 colliders, and people still cant see it, even tho im clearly under the limit
pine flame
@prime beacon This channel is about optimizing your model, not just trying to get your bones to move for everyone. Optimizing your dynamic bones is quite helpful for the performance of people who can see them
amber hemlock
They can also have changed their limit I know mine is changed
Also don’t trust the amount of bones reported in the editor; or even the in-game inspector. It can miss ones if they are hidden by default but they still count toward getting disabled
vivid crest
Yeah personally i believe avatars should be as optimized as they can be. if your dynamic bones still aren't under a group of peoples limits either they have them on default settings or have the limit lower cause they want good fps since some people have 30+ Dynamic bones. I personally got Good overall performance WIth 3 dynamic bone componets and 16 transforms. and i dont think ive had anyone with issues seeing my DB
pine flame
Oh he could have also set bone offsets those add more transforms under the hood
surreal topaz
Yeah that's what I think
But even then it mysteriously might just fail to count correctly
There's all kinds of problems with how dynamic bones are counted
amber hemlock
I actually doubled my bone limiter and people still get mad when I say I can’t see theirs :p
surreal topaz
End length is counted for the limiter but not the stats, they count the root bone for both transforms and collision checks
And the public world limit doesn't match the default limiter
I think end length should only count half and the root bone shouldn't count at all
Since it makes for unfair distributions
candid sedge
so 10 bones parented to 1 root bone that has it is 11?
amber hemlock
If 10 bones are moving 11 count yes
The “root” transform parameter is counted as a dynamic transform
surreal topaz
The root counts because it's counted incorrectly
amber hemlock
To be fair it CAN move if an end length is added but then it counts as 2
candid sedge
i can imagine someone putting a root at the start of each painted hair strand would spike that number up on ya then
prime beacon
thanks guys
didnt know about offset/end length, i just went by what vrc told me, ill try around more
amber hemlock
Yeah you save a ton of transforms by making sure all dress stands have a common root
Saves 1 transform per strand
And depending on setup you can usually get away with fusing them all into a single strand
surreal topaz
@amber hemlock that's not entirely true
With the current system, having a root bone gives you 1 extra transform as opposed to 1 script per strand
According to VRC the latter is better
amber hemlock
🤔 aren’t actual script counts also metric you get penalized with?
No it should still be less because roots don’t move so the roots might as well all be the same root
1 extra transform if you don’t merge the roots but then you have a ton of dm components which rating penalizes
surreal topaz
You get "penalized" sorta in the performance system
But many people will take a "medium" rank if it means their dynamic bones are actually visible under defaults
Or even Poor rank will be taken since it's so easy to get Poor that nobody really cares
I only start caring at Very Poor, and even then it depends on what they're poor in. Particle systems are very unfairly penalized
amber hemlock
Meanwhile there’s me who refuses to do anything that throws you out of excellent 🤔
prime beacon
this all sounds way more complex then It should be/sound 🤔
i still dont quite understand how it counts what and disables by what, but i get the idea a little
here we are, trying to optimize our avatars, few bones, atlas etc
and then there are public worlds full with 2.000 dynamic bone collision checks that cost me 30 fps 😦 this is so annoying that people dont give a shit and just put out shit for everyone to use
candid sedge
dont think you can do that anymore but if some older worlds still have stuff like that they need to go
i was almost sure they started a clean up a while ago tho not sure how that turned out
prime beacon
so whats the thing with dynamic bone offset? so if I have 2 collision checks, but use any kind of offset/length, it coutns as 4 by the limiter, but it still shows as 2, correct?
young tulip
60k polys or 1 dynamic bone
which has more of a negative impact?
actually 2 dynamic bones
heady smelt
Depends on how many meshes and materials that 60k thing has
novel grove
@young tulip im sure 60k polys by itself isn't bad at all 🤔
magic locust
The dynamic bone has more impact
surreal topaz
The 60k polys would probably have more impact tbh
@young tulip
Especially if on a skinned mesh renderer
People are under the false impression that "polys don't matter"
magic locust
Maybe in another setting, but in the case of vrc were cpu is at a premium the thing impacting cpu is most likely to cause a bigger impact
I'm also well aware that polygons do matter both ingame and for ease of working with
surreal topaz
Polys do affect CPU
Polys affect CPU regardless, but that's even more so when dealing with skinned meshes
There's a reason the upper poly limit is 70k, while it takes like 32 dynbone transforms to even break out of Medium
In the scale of 60k polys it will matter
amber hemlock
Honestly 32K for excellent seems very forgiving
surreal topaz
It is
If I had to guess, I think the limits are intentionally made quite generous when it comes to polys
Like why would 70k be Good but 71k be Very Poor?
They probably wanted to make 50k-70k "Poor" or something like that
amber hemlock
They weren’t originally
It was changed in beta
That’s why there is such a huge gap between 32K and 70K
Originally there were two more goalposts between 32K and 70K with like above 60K or something being poor and above 70K very poor
Don’t know exactly where they were
I think they just didn’t want to punish all those 64K avatars (that shouldn’t have been there in the first place) and no one would bother optimizing them at all because without decimation they would stay poor regardless
surreal topaz
Polys are definitely one of the harder ones to bring down
With many other aspects it's just "don't use it" or merge some bones together quickly and easily
But reducing polys essentially requires destroying the model or redoing parts of the model yourself
magic locust
Yeah, most people don't know about retopology
prime beacon
Most 3D Artists dont know about retopology 🙃 maybe i shouldnt call them artists
amber hemlock
Knowing how to 3D model and being a 3D artist are very different things.
One requires the other obviously but you need the technical knowledge of how to use the program and how 3D models work, and then you need an eye for aesthetics and design which is like an entirely separate talent
amber hemlock
It’s easier to start with 2D art because everyone knows how to use a pencil
And the same skills carry over into 3D once you know how to use blender
surreal topaz
For me, 3D art is waay easier
icy phoenix
I find 3d modeling work flows to be aggravating. Everything is everywhere.. There's no consistency
surreal topaz
I have a motor skill deficiency that makes it very hard to do precise movements or use a pencil
3D modeling has practically infinite undo buttons and ways to align stuff
In a similar way I suck at sculpting but I'm OK at "traditional" methods of just extruding edges
icy phoenix
Unity's handling of plug-ins is weird too
amber hemlock
I found unity to be insanely intuitive I learned it before blender
surreal topaz
My Unity knowledge is pretty much entirely self-taught, it's a good and intuitive program
Blender took some more work but I got used to it
amber hemlock
Everything just instantly clicked going in blind never saw any kind of game engine before
surreal topaz
Some things are still unnecessarily difficult
Unity's way of doing things is very well suited to making content for this game as well
The game object workflow, prefabs, asset bundles etc
icy phoenix
I used source for awhile dabbling in map creation, but that was years ago. For Unity, the sticking point is importing plug-ins on a project by project basis. The rest of the ui is good compared to my experience with blender
But then again, I've got minimal experience. I'll learn and adapt
mossy solar
Polys do affect FPS but it's so miniscule however polies affect the filesize of the model bigtime
surreal topaz
Poly impact isn't miniscule
It depends on the scale you're talking about
20k vs. 30k probably won't matter much at all
But above 70k things get hairy on skinned meshes and especially on avatars
On non-skinned meshes it matters less but it still matters. There's a reason older games aren't all using 200k poly meshes, even for the main character.
mossy solar
because GPUs were alot slower back then
icy phoenix
Reminds me of the performance issues for FFXIV' original launch. Potted plant with the same number of pol-lie-gons as a player character.
amber hemlock
Blender makes a ton of sense once you start using the keyboard to do things instead of the UI
My only complaint is layers are not as intuitive as they could be
surreal topaz
Polys aren't just about the GPU
zinc crown
Is anyone at debugging hierarchy problems?
kind torrent
not me
gray wing
don't some characters from the last final fantasy game have like 100,000 polys in their eyelashes or something equally stupid lol
surreal topaz
Probably not that many
gray wing
yeah, looks like it's actually 100,000 per character and 20,000-30,000 polys for their hair
which is apparently some of the highest in games at the time
surreal topaz
From Software games like Sekiro have protagonists that are like 180k polys
God of War too
icy phoenix
The sad part is high poly hair didn't help lightning on the PS3 at all
patent leaf
I have textures that are huge in size with empty space and are only needed for certain parts of it, is there a way to shrink the image to only what the UV uses or do I have to manually set them to their spot after the crop?
surreal topaz
Texture atlas
And all unused space will disappear
@patent leaf
Manual atlasing is a good idea to begin with
amber hemlock
Texture atlas to my knowledge does not remove empty space it just tiles the textures
surreal topaz
Manual atlasing does remove empty space because you're not tiling textures at all
It bakes a new texture based on the UV's
So if a specific part of the texture is not used, it won't be baked
amber hemlock
I wish I could do that but it copy and paste the texture instead of baking it cuz it blurs my texture
mossy solar
manual atlas make the file size quite a bit smaller
sweet mason
Black area in the texture take like almost 0 size i think
surreal topaz
The texture contents don't matter unless you crunch compress
amber hemlock
Yeah I blacked my texture trying to save space it did nothing
surreal topaz
If space alone is a concern, you could also atlas the transparent and opaque parts separately
So that the opaque texture won't need an alpha channel at all
But for a single avatar and a single texture, that's negligible
I turn off alpha on any texture where I don't need it
lament haven
yo can anyone help me idk what im doing wrong but my avatar when i use it in game
literally glitches me
where im below the map/
or something
and idk what im doing wrong
may be size
pine flame
“If space alone is a concern, you could also atlas the transparent and opaque parts separately”
Make one large atlas texture, use two different materials to reference it, one for opaque bits, one for transparent bits. Set the opaque material to opaque in your material editor in unity and the transparent one to transparent.
This is how I atlas, saves on GPU resources, reusing textures is very helpful.
surreal topaz
@pine flame that's what I do too
I was just talking about raw space usage, particularly for mobile
Atlas textures generally have a lot of unused alpha channel in them
You could perhaps devise a system where alpha = emission level on an opaque shader, so you can save on the emission texture too and make that alpha channel actually used
amber hemlock
All three of my materials reference different parts of the same huge 4096x4096 atlas. One for cutout single sided, one for cutout double sided, and one for blended transparency. Tho the blended one is like just this tiny little section of the texture that could have been a 64x64 texture of its own not sure if that would have been better
surreal topaz
Nah, keeping it all in one texture is better
Just to be clear, keeping stuff in the same texture is more performant. Splitting textures to save a little bit of RAM is not necessary.
Just make sure you keep your atlas texture at 4k max though
8k is too large, even when crunched it'll take up a lot of VRAM.
amber hemlock
With all my empty space I can probably get it down to 4096x2048 if I move stuff around
How in blender can you view your used % of uv area
amber hemlock
I know there was a way for it to say like “43% of this image is covered by UV islands”
obtuse token
I found out how to see the areas by having the texture open in another view, and selecting the entire mesh in face select mode. it showed it all up on the texture then...
perhaps in one of the side menus for that view, there's a stat which shows you coverage?
pine flame
@surreal topaz yeah, most models I have use a single 4K atlas, only digi’s nanoko has used up an 8k texture
shut sequoia
8k Atlas 🤤
lament haven
is anyone else having trouble with publishing a character?
amber hemlock
Should unity textures be square? or is power of two enough?
like my atlas is gonna end up 4096x2048
no way to fit it into a 2048x2048
marsh trail
Power of 2 should be good enough, it's when it diverges that things get iffy
You could probably even have a 128x8096 and it'd still work properly
Atleast from my understanding of course
distant forge
Anyone know the right way in blender to take a whole set of bones (for example Skirt_0_1 , Skirt_2_2 etc) and weight anything from there to the common parent bone (e.g. Hips)?
marsh trail
The "right" way in terms of transfering weights from one bone to another without added utilities would probably be via the vertex groups, the automatic way would be neitri's tools, which CATS has incorporated into it, although the space search doesn't show up with it as it was essentially redundant and scrapped in the CATS version, so i have it installed regardless as i prefer the space search method
patent leaf
I use the CATS merge button if that's the same thing. What I do is hide any bones that don't want to accidently merge and have the hip bone selected and either use the selector tool B key or the highlight C key and grab all the bones I want and hit the 'Merge to' button
amber hemlock
Vertex weight mix modifier is OP
You can use it to simultaneously weight paint one group while negatively painting another so they stay normalized
Better preview
safe swift
yeah, i prefer weight mix over normalize
normalize breaks my stuff, so i stopped using it
slow forum
can i have some help i cant find the little view position circle
strong jolt
Is there a way to allow hand gesture overrides to happen without finger bones? My avatar does not have fingers
safe swift
@strong jolt you have to have thumb, index and thumb, 3 dummy bones work
can be extruded from wrist and then assigned in unity, they dont need to be weightpainted
strong jolt
Is there a way to do all that without having to start over in my scene?
surreal topaz
@trail yarrow no
Excluded bones are not counted for collision checks or transforms thankfully
prime beacon
guys im dying
wicked arrow
D:
wicked arrow
421K triangles, 500 bones... What the actual hell
prime beacon
half a million polis... 1.7k coll checks
wicked arrow
Please don't be like that çç
wicked arrow
Unpopular opinion but MMD avatars are often cancer, they are really cheap works that are just ported without care
prime beacon
wrong
wicked arrow
Especially no care for other players
prime beacon
all my avatars are mmd and all are nearly excellent
wicked arrow
Yeah not saying that all MMD avatars are like this, of course
But most people just seem to not care at all
prime beacon
its not mmds fault that the creator is braindead
and vrchat doesnt give a fuck
500k polygons dude
30 mats
wicked arrow
Eh, they should literally block avatars this much unoptimized
prime beacon
they should revoke upload privelage
wicked arrow
I repeat, we need the optimization police lol
A good suggestion in the Canny was to have the ability to block Avatars by ID
That would be awesome
surreal topaz
Trusted user btw
Report avatar doesn't work so gg
Just block the person entirely if they pull that shit
Especially with the intentionally weird nametag
wicked arrow
Like the ones with a single kanji as username...
prime beacon
i wish the devs would give a shit
wicked arrow
Each user should have a clear numeric id, that would make the cut indeed
prime beacon
just ban that guy..
surreal topaz
Also, MMD avatars are far from the only unoptimized ones btw.
There are people with edited Y Bot avatars that are just as bad
wicked arrow
Yeah other avatars are terrible too
surreal topaz
But MMD's are usually the most guilty of dynamic bone overuse
Like those shitty larens or krogenit models
prime beacon
damn
prime beacon
braindead people abusing a system without moderations
it will only get worse , just look at the public avatar worlds
and no matter how much we complain
nothing will change
icy phoenix
I'll work to improve mine as much as I can.
prime beacon
just saw larens avatars, holy shit how bad
whats up with the bounding box beeing like 7mill# xyz
surreal topaz
Laziness
Usually broken shape keys or a marker that they haven't bothered fixing
Or an intentional "look at me, don't cull my avatar" thing
prime beacon
we should make a wall of shame for garbage avatar creators like larens, harleyquinn, etc or just delete the worlds and revoke upload rights
icy phoenix
Beh.. The sign of a good design is efficiency on top of good.
surreal topaz
They should get the world and their avatars privated
But sadly it seems VRC's optimization efforts have pretty much been canceled, ironic
prime beacon
they should get punished
surreal topaz
Other than the barely functioning dynamic bone limiter, they seem less intent on moderating public worlds
prime beacon
setting to private isnt good enough
surreal topaz
Krogenit evaded the rules several times and should be banned tbh
Intentionally uploading empty worlds, larens too
prime beacon
yes, remove and ban
surreal topaz
I reported it but it's still up.
prime beacon
i wish this game would die already and a new good competitor with a good team would emerge
but for now all we can do is block
/shrug
wicked arrow
These issues are why I’m pretty hyped for the Quest version; everyone will get to play on the same hardware, if stuff is not optimized either won’t work or will run bad for everyone
I don’t care if features are limited honestly
wicked arrow
I’m an hardcore lowpoly lover, I started doing 3D during the J2ME/NDS era, so I love crunching all the possible details within tight limits
Anyway I was thinking... VRC checks locally for avatar stats and performance, right? As far as I’m told, people manage to hack through the SDK and upload broken resources
I believe VRC should do these checks online, just after a World/Avatar has been uploaded
This way the server has the last world on optimization, and if the model is bad, it simply rejects it
And you can’t really hack the server like you can hack the local SDK
prime beacon
I wouldnt call it "hack" you can literally comment out one line of code // and upload whatever you want
And yes, common sense would be checking shit online, but we wouldnt be here, if the dev team knew whats important and wouldnt focus on more unimportant features noone wants.
icy phoenix
Server Auth is important
prime beacon
lets see what the next livestream brings on information, maybe they surprise is with a performance moderation tool on the roadmap that fixes all our complains 🙃
wicked arrow
Would be awesome
Also commenting out a line is kinda a fault on the dev part, if you want a safe method, just compile the code in a DLL
Way harder to crack open
amber hemlock
1 mil bounding box
Oh man your avatar looks so lovely while it’s behind me still using my resources
prime beacon
glad i hid the avatar then, having 2+k collision checks and 30 unique materials ALL THE TIME doesnt seem like fun to me
makes me hate the creator even more
god, i beg for "block avatars by this author" feature... this would make me love the game again
amber hemlock
Block by blueprint is what I want most, block by author is overkill for me
surreal topaz
Yeah I'd want block by blueprint but that wouldn't fix all of it
We need limits on cloning so this shit won't happen all the time
There's too much influx of new and unoptimized stuff for any of this to work
wicked arrow
It would be selective without being too hard
surreal topaz
I rarely see the same unoptimized avatar twice unless it's larens
shut sequoia
Unless it's a fad one you usually don't.
amber hemlock
Would people lose their minds if only medium and above were allowed to be clonable
surreal topaz
We need the optimization bot to come back in some form, and cloning for an avatar has to be completely disabled until it's checked by this bot.
@amber hemlock that would pretty much be covered by my suggestion
The only difference being that the dynamic bone limit for public worlds doesn't match Medium
But for cloning I'd say it's fair game regardless.
amber hemlock
Does the bone limiter match medium?
surreal topaz
Over 32 is Poor
World limit is 50
100 collision checks is also roughly the public world limit
Rather than 8
shut sequoia
The issue is it needs to be reworked from the ground up, because "good" = 10 full avatars complete with DB hidden behind animations or other tricks.
surreal topaz
That too
The optimization bot detected that fuckery
So that would be fine
It always counts disabled stuff too
amber hemlock
I don’t think the bone limiter even allows medium
amber hemlock
They do need to standardize all this
Weird different systems having different limits
surreal topaz
There's only two systems with different limits
Public world guidelines and the performance ranks
shut sequoia
But even if people find a workaround they already stated that they dont care about punishing "minor" things.
surreal topaz
The ranks should be matched to the guidelines IMO
Yeah but this is pretty major
I want them to be as strict on it as when they had the bot
shut sequoia
So was uploading over Avatar ifs for rhe world.
surreal topaz
I reported some worlds through email but nothing happened
shut sequoia
And no one got in trouble
surreal topaz
They re-ran the optimization bot on recently publicized worlds and did indeed re-private or suspend some people
shut sequoia
I don't think anyone got suspended their world was just remove
surreal topaz
I saw on the form that they got their submissions suspended
shut sequoia
Wow oh no.
surreal topaz
After this many offenses they should be permanently barred
Or at least for a longer time
prime beacon
which world got removed? sorry kinda out of the loop here
larens 😄 ? (if he has an avatar world)
amber hemlock
Yeah I’ve gone months without uploading anything just by happenstance
shut sequoia
I mean people who make annoying cloneables got public bans yet users who circumvented their system and broke rules knowingly for months get....a week suspension
For uploads.
wicked arrow
Wow a week... equivalent of gently slapping their hand and say “please don’t do that anymore, ok?”
prime beacon
should get an upload-ban, simple as that
shut sequoia
Yeah after they knowingly did it for months, mods knew as well. They've already stated they don't like punishment so you can't hope for any real consequences unless you do something terrible lol
amber hemlock
It’s very hard to get banned from VRchat. If you get banned from Vrchat you dun goofed
shut sequoia
Even Crashers only get public bans for a few weeks lol . Owell.
amber hemlock
That’s why when I hear of people getting unfairly banned I tend to roll my eyes. These guys do not ban frivolously
surreal topaz
So far I think only Shonzo's world got taken down and that was after 5 months
I got Krogenit's world taken off of labs for like a week
But then it was back so
¯_(ツ)_/¯
He reuploaded an empty one and so did larens, then they switched to their "real" worlds after it wasa already uploaded
prime beacon
How do you get anything taken down, i report the same shitty avatars and nothing ever happens
and when I check avatar worlds, they all are garbage avatars all over the place, public, cloneable
surreal topaz
Send a moderation email
They actually take the emails seriously, ingame reports go straight into the trash unless reported at a very high volume (individually, getting friends to report it apparently won't help).
prime beacon
"He reuploaded an empty one and so did larens, then they switched to their "real" worlds after it wasa already uploaded"
And did he get banned for that, for ever? Or what happend
amber hemlock
It’s possible they are reuploads by different people. Not much can be done if it’s a openly available unity package
prime beacon
so why should i even bother sending an email in the first place 🙃
they dont give a shit
shut sequoia
Basically. And they'll never speak on the issue either because there's no excuse. Most of us here are used to being ignored so it doesn't really phase us any more.
prime beacon
true
feels shitty to be without any power to do anything about issues clearly visible to anyone ._.
amber hemlock
Just ask for a blueprint block or author block and we can moderate ourselves pretty effectively
prime beacon
yes, avatar creator and blueprint block
cant be that hard to implement, would help TONS
shut sequoia
Should've come standard but cloning was rushed to appease players during the Christmas fuckups. Once a new feature enters the game, it's never touched again unless it gets bugfixes.
prime beacon
😦
amber hemlock
Eh give them a break I don’t think they have a big crew
prime beacon
"give them a break" I would, if they fixed atleast one of the many glaring issues, or even acknowledge the fact that it exist 🙃
amber hemlock
Some things just aren’t high priority and the high priority stuff rarely runs out
shut sequoia
That's not an excuse you can attribute to a small staff. Don't knowingly release it half assed lol
prime beacon
audio issues, fbt issues, crashing issues, performance issues, issues issues issues
shut sequoia
"oh shit we didn't think of that" isn't a small staff problem either
amber hemlock
I want many fbt fixes but realistically fbt users are rare and not a priority
prime beacon
the thing is.
It was working great, they made it worse and didnt touch it anymore
same with the audio issues
they even said they dont want to fix it right now
they rather work on a whole new buggy system for a year
🙃
shut sequoia
Dw I'm sure Ron's "pwease stweamers dont be mad ;w;" Livestream will cover all this lol
prime beacon
who gives a shit about them
shut sequoia
VRchat, because they draw people.
prime beacon
a good game draws people
shut sequoia
Advertising draws people. Streamers advertise the game.
shut sequoia
Because it's free advertising. They do stay. Otherwise how are we all her
If you draw 50 and only 5 stay FOR FREE, that's gain.
prime beacon
and those 5 suffer through the mess like we do right now
because they know there is no alternative
shut sequoia
As much as people complain, including myself tbh, most of this shit id minor inconveniences outside of security issues.
It's not "suffering"
prime beacon
i wouldnt call playing a VR game with 20fps a "minor inconveniences "
but yes you are right
shut sequoia
Lol that sounds like a PC issue then. I never hit 20 unless a map is super bad
prime beacon
you clearly never met someone with 2+k collision checks ,300k polies and 40 mats
shut sequoia
I have, that shouldn't set you to 20 lol
prime beacon
infront of a mirror, hiding that person, makes me go from 15 fps back 45
shut sequoia
One avatar is rarely the problem
prime beacon
you have a new gen i7? my old i7 4770k cant handle that much
it is, happens often enough
literally one avatar, 15- 45fps , i can reproduce and show you a video
shut sequoia
So a PC issue then.
shut sequoia
I've seen plenty of Larenz avatars in publics, rooms full of them. They were s lot more popular than they are now.
prime beacon
its not your pc, its part of the problem, but its not your fault
prime beacon
¯_(ツ)_/¯
lucky you then
i guess if my issues doesnt apply to everyone, its not a real issue, you got me there
shut sequoia
No, you're simply the minority therefore can't be prioritized.
It's been a staple of the whole optimization meme that one avatar is very rarely the issue. It's when there's a multiples due to avatars being both public and popular
prime beacon
hmm true ye
surreal topaz
I have hit 20 by one avatar on occasion
amber hemlock
I mean I wouldn’t have joined if not for streamers
surreal topaz
2k collision checks, 500 transforms, 60 materials and obnoxious particles
Actually it may have been Floppii's avatar or something lol
His excuse was "it doesn't lag me"
And then he went to "i'm an animator so my stuff lags"
amber hemlock
Curious how many people here didn’t join because they first saw it streamed or a recording of a stream
amber hemlock
I joined because a friend literally playing invited me but they played because of a stream
So yeah streams are huge
prime beacon
i joined because of the infinite worlds and possibilities this game could offer
and here i am, at the mirror at the pug, everyday xD
surreal topaz
I try to stay away from the mirror and I'm somewhat annoyed if half the instance is crowded around the mirror
The fact that the mirror in the Pug is so small helps a little at least
trail yarrow
So turns out if you have 8 collision checks it disables your dynamic bones
You have to have 7 or less
The number lies
surreal topaz
Pffft
That's on top of the fact that the root bone falsely counts as a collision check
trail yarrow
Really? Mine doesn't seem to
Oh unless its counting that but not showing it in the ui, so it thinks I have 9 checks
surreal topaz
Do you use end length/end offset?
trail yarrow
Yeah I think so
surreal topaz
The limiter counts that as a collision check
The UI does not
Because they count completely differently
trail yarrow
Wait what
surreal topaz
The UI manually enumerates and counts the game objects from the root bone and down, skipping anything marked as exclusion
The limiter accesses the dynamic bone's "particles" property which also counts end length virtual transforms.
trail yarrow
Does it have to calculate the offset as a separate bone?
surreal topaz
End length and end offset adds a fake "extra" transform to the calculations
So it will indeed be counted by the limiter
Even if it isn't a game object
trail yarrow
Ah okay that at least makes sense
surreal topaz
You can see this in action by increasing "Radius" on the dynamic bone component
You actually see more white spheres being added
I wish the UI were more consistent, and I wish that end length transforms only counted for half because they don't have to be applied
trail yarrow
Wish I knew exclusions weren't counted tho, spent all day yesterday trying to optimize a massive dress skirt to under 8 bones
When I could have just excluded
Cuz I only need the front part of the skirt to hit the legs when running
Oof
amber hemlock
That’s why I doubled my limits I found most avatars were exactly at the limit but getting disabled
surreal topaz
I put mine at 256/256, but I've been meaning to cut that to 250/100
Disabling collision checks only disables collisions
still perch
100 collision checks 
surreal topaz
That's not that many IMO
I can handle it
I wouldn't recommend any higher personally even with a super computer
This way I block out all the larens BS but I still see reasonable use.
still perch
It is quite many. But ofc everyone is free to set it to their personal preference 
still perch
I think neutral about it.
I think it's good that people notice something is different and hear about the topic / issues
ofc it sucks for those who wont question it and think its just bugged.
surreal topaz
I see questions every day "why aren't my dynamic bones working ingame?"
still perch
And i wish the answere would be a propper explaination insted of many only responding on how to deactivate it 
prime beacon
just joined a world where so many shitty avatars joined, I barely could leave the room :/ Kim,Larens,Harley, the whole gang
marsh trail
I wish there was a popup regarding dynamic bones in-game, not as any sort of loading tip or whatnot, an actual in-game popup that'd explain that dynamic bones for certain avatars would be disabled if anybody, including the users' current avatars were to trigger the setting, it would be a fairly straightforward way of approaching it and would simply need to check if an avatar had its dynamic bones script disabled to trigger it once on a per-client-boot instance (only once per client start).
It would mitigate questions exponentially and not leave users in the dark that are unaware of this setting
Of course if such were to be implemented, an option to remove said popup would be advisable as users could get tired of seeing it, even if it only showed up once per startup, and it'd be best if it was located next to the actual setting itself
In this sort of situation i feel like actual information through the client itself is best, sure users can just come up here and ask about their things not working, but that shouldn't be the norm over a setting they were completely oblivious to, and many users probably just spend hours upon hours trying to figure out what they did wrong, watching tutorial after tutorial, and some of them just give up altogether, which needless to say, regardless of how impactful dynamic bones can be, is less than ideal
limber vale
I mean u could request it @marsh trail
On the canny
As I do think a lot of people agree with ur idea
And thought
marsh trail
I'm not planning on making a canny, it's just my opinion on the matter, i doubt it'd be implemented, but i felt like sharing it, if anybody does feel like going after it, then be my guest, whatever is best for the community, i'll upvote it
Essentially the equivalent of "hey i got an idea that could help people, but i'm too lazy to formulate it into a canny, so if somebody else wants to, grab it"
I know, sounds ridiculous
amber hemlock
I think they just want to sunset dynamic bones and wish they never whitelisted it
They need to make their own that ain’t as laggy
limber vale
True.... I did hear a while back people tried to contact the maker of dynamic bones and see if he would optimize it for vr and stuff
No clue what came of that tho
More than likely ur right tho, they should work on their own version of dynamic bones that is optimized for VRChat as it would be in the best interest for the future
marsh trail
They'd probably need to make one from scratch, which i highly doubt would happen, any more reliable and performant alternatives would be neat
marsh trail
VRM per example has their own kind of "dynamic bones", don't think there's been all that recent of a conversation regarding implementing VRM support
It's within the realm of possibility but i feel like it's akin to HL3 being released in terms of outcome
So i highly doubt it
But hey, it can happen
limber vale
I think that’s a bit of a stretch to put akin to a game that will never come out
marsh trail
That's kind of the point though haha
Essentially, i don't think it will happen, much like the possibility of HL3 being released
It can however happen
amber hemlock
Each avatar could have a set amount of client-produced IK network dyn bones are calculated locally. If you want a ton of dyn bones fine but they will be lower framerate the more you have so dyn bone has a fixed overhead per avatar
That’d work
marsh trail
I'm starting to set my updaterates to 30 and rounding my values around that
amber hemlock
I mean instead of everyone calculating everyone else’s dyn bones calculate your own and if you can’t send all that network data you just send it slower and update less.
marsh trail
I can see that working to an extent, but, that would essentially, in a way, make users that are unable to follow up with their own settings to appear sloppy and inconsistent on other people's clients, no?
Just trying to make sense of it
amber hemlock
That’s entirely correct. But avatars that make people look laggy, they’d just stop wearing them
No problem sort of just address itself
But no matter what they do, they can’t lag people with this form of dynamic bones because you only are in charge of calculating your own
And they’re already planning to do a network IK update anyway this would just be extra user transforms
Idk just spitballing
limber vale
The last networked ik (before it messed some stuff up) actually made the game pretty smooth
From what I remember
safe swift
that's if you had decent connection, made unplayable for many people
marsh trail
Hypothetically speaking, if a user had a relatively good rig and no issues with their setup, yet had a horrible connection to the server and other players alike, wouldn't that also butcher it?
safe swift
and i think it was also killing their network
amber hemlock
Yes but that would already butcher it once the network IK update comes out anyway
marsh trail
@amber hemlock oh no, by rig i meant specs, generally good hardware, it's regarding the previous topic, in which it'd rely on people calculating their DB's to then pass said info through their network to other clients, they'd, supposedly, require a stable/good connection and the processing power for the calculations, if i understood it right
So if a user unfortunatelly had a poor connection to the servers, they'd have their DB's butchered, likewise if they incurred a lagspike, but that'd probably pass without raising any eyebrows, and ultimately, a good but jittery connection, which would irregularly send said processed information, but that could be finetuned aswell i s'pose
amber hemlock
Yeah I understood that. I just mean that's kinda exactly what happened when the network IK update was live. Poor internet connection = choppy mocap
misty knot
that seems like something that could b toggled, maybe. enable networked IK to receive updates to others' IK via network, disable to calculate yourself if you're on a bad connection. maybe a P2P broadcast to let others in the room know not to spam you with IK updates.
unless the problem is not having enough connection to send your own updates.
if that's the case, how are you managing to play at all.
deft whale
luv it
heady smelt
Not that bad
Had a rolex with over a million polys and around 400 meshes in my unity once
amber hemlock
What the heck is with those meshes
forget about the 1 mil polys
53 meshes is bad on purpose territory
heady smelt
Yuh
marsh trail
I've got nothing
heady smelt
Took you that long to say that lul
deft whale
oof
marsh trail
Took me that long to process nothing
misty knot
lol, I read rolex as roblox ; now I'm imagining what a million-poly roblox model looks like
marsh trail
A Sphere
wicked arrow
Rotfl
Silly question maybe: Is it possible to actually use custom scripts on Avatars? Like, if I write my own cheap dynamic bone solution
sudden zodiac
@wicked arrow No, custom scripts aren't allowed
mossy solar
Why can't we have an option to auto-block avatars with all those meshes and materials....
surreal topaz
We may get one at some point actually. But cloth is first.
shut sequoia
Could be an option in the future with performance updates
remote turtle
anyone ever have an issue with the cats plugin making the avatar change size?
sudden zodiac
@remote turtle Not me 🤔
marsh trail
Doesn't CATS import certain models at a smaller scale? :o
Not sure if it does that for a FBX
marsh trail
Oh, on fix it can happen, iirc it only occurs if you have values that are unapplied, such as scale, or was that only on merging armatures?...
Can't recall for sure
sudden zodiac
Well it shouldn't happen
heady smelt
Dude I'm getting pissed with unity. Each and every time i import a new model, all current ones go pink and I have to manually import cubed shaders every single
fucking time
safe swift
don't import shaders then
surreal topaz
First of all, are you actually asking how to remove an imposed limit in the official server?
And second, is 70k polys really not enough?
heady smelt
well there are modded sdk's i was pointed to but i couldnt find any
i just want to upload this avatar someone made and i told them the poly limit didnt allow for it
so they said to download a modded sdk
if you cant do it then whatever, but the guy uploads a lot of avatars so i assumed he knew what he was talking about
my bad then if not
surreal topaz
Import the FBX into Blender and use the decimate modifier
Or the Cats blender tool auto decimation
heady smelt
I'm good
surreal topaz
As I said, you're not gonna find people willing to help you modify the SDK. Especially now that the limit is 70k. You should be able to fit just about anything in that limit, even as a beginner.
heady smelt
lol nvm got it
pine flame
This is the avatar optimization channel, btw
heady smelt
Thanks for the input
heady smelt
hey who wanna be friends?
zinc crown
i like being friends 😃
fathom coral
Next Unity update might raise Polygon limit to 100,000+
surreal topaz
What are you talking about?
wicked arrow
Yeah it will do that. They explicitly said this in a recent (more or less) blog post
I'm trying to search for that blog post but Google is returning me a lot of results of people asking how to avoid the 70K triangle limit in Unity, explicitly for VRC... Oh god
This is how a 3D Artist dies
dark storm
the limit right now is because above a certain amount it will auto-split the mesh internally, and duplicate materials for the split, doubling material count
wicked arrow
Yep the limit now is 65.536
It won't duplicate materials
Maybe it will duplicate the auto-generated materials, but those are futile stuff and a bad practice to use in general
It's better to disable these in the Import settings
dark storm
well it definitely doubles your passes so if that's not doubling the materials i don't know what to say
wicked arrow
Two passes doesn't mean there are two materials
dark storm
is it because it's more than 1 skinned mesh then?
wicked arrow
Yeah indeed
wicked arrow
Yes, that's more correct way to say that : P
dark storm
so what did they replace the 16 bit binary with