is that not an issue with the model itself?
#vrchat-general-2
quasi otter
Admin or mod able to talk private message please, I had something intrested
uncut gorge
It's an issue with nearly every model I tried. The root of the issue is that when you are using knuckles controllers in the beta, it ignores your custom hand animations and forces you to use the default ones. The default ones have the first thumb bone set to its max value(fully extended) whenever you're not doing the fist gesture.
rigid crescent
You'll have to email them @quasi otter they don't normally do stuff in DMs
OK I get what you mean, so it's forcing a weird animation on to what normally would be fine? That is pretty weird way of doing it
uncut gorge
for the fingers it's fine since those are all tracked 1 to 1 by the controller, but there is no analog sensor for the thumb, it just has an on or off state so the game has to use an animation for that
and in the beta you're forced to use the default animation as it ignores any custom ones you have on the hands
Even if they were to fix that for one specific model, it would look weird on another model
slate verge
I have a dream! one day the broken neck bug will be fixed <3
slate verge
make sure to use #vrchat-support if its serious or technical
maiden lintel
oh
Can someone get in a call with me so I can screen share and help me
I’m having a lot of trouble and to be honest I have no clue how to use a ticket
And or don’t know how to explain my problem
uncut gorge
wolfie you probably mistakenly activated safe mode
that automatically blocks all avatars so they appear as grey men
go in your safety settings and set it back to normal
maiden lintel
Oh
I also can only access a error world too
And get stuck in infinite loading too
mortal patrol
what is diffrences between public-lobby and vrchat-general?
rigid crescent
nothing
mortal patrol
hm
hidden anchor
what up my asian brother
mortal patrol
hey
how's the faq channel workin?
can't ask any question with chats?
i can't ask anything cuz no one's asking with chats at that channel
modern sand
FAQ is frequently asked questions, you can check if your question is there first
if not, ask here or check #vrchat-support
gaunt pine
every damn public world i go to with a video player has fing porn playing on it wtf vr chat dont you have mods to fix this shit?
lunar shell
Just report it? Mods don't know unless someone tells them I would think.
vocal shard
Epic 
brave gyro
Yeah I wonder why.....
vocal shard
It's a community lab world
mortal girder
Ok so why is everyone appearing as an error for me? ;(
vocal shard
You turned on safe mode
@mortal girder Just switch your safety setting back to normal and that'll fix it
mortal girder
That wasnt it;( everyone but friends are errors
vocal shard
Have you tried clearing your cache
strange peak
Any1 wanna rp?
vocal shard
@strange peak rp is stinky
queen mango
Coulda caught that sooner, but np.
quiet trench
a lot of drunk vrchat streams tonight?
vocal shard
They've been getting drunk since the beginning
placid zealot
Not starting, it's always been that way xD
rigid crescent
it was streamed less early on but got more common
kind drift
Some people you meet are just so rude in VRchat. I'm glad when you block them they just poof
rigid crescent
;-; on my last drink
tepid flame
Hey guys im new to vrchat and i paly on desktopand i just wanna ask how do i use custom avatar aniomations and voice effects (no voice changers)
Thanks 😃
true sky
@gaunt pine worlds that allow urls to be used in videoplayers is outside the world creators control, but logs will usually tell who placed the url, which you can report the user for doing so.
lost nimbus
hey are world/room admins still unable to kick/mute people?
quiet trench
probably
vocal shard
it should be fixed in open beta so it's coming to the live build soon ™
wary wedge
how do i change my locomotion to walking instead of teleporting? im on th rift s and cant find how
ruby needle
have you tried the changing locomotion settings in the settings?
wary wedge
i tried finding them in settings with the headset on, is there a separate one im not seeing?
wary wedge
thank you, the teleporting was making it hard
mystic harbor
Hi
wispy axle
Hi
tacit plank
VRChat, please don't use ".contains" for unique identification of asset names
uncut trail
meow ?
weak lantern
Still unable to talk in game due to ingame Autopickup not activation
Did all trouble shooting steps and drivers all but Reinstall windows
trying one more thing
nope nothing
torn pelican
Sup Xolares.
ruby needle
Did it start after a windows update by any chance?
ruby needle
no no, downgrading is not a solution anyway.
Check the settings if anything might be blocking the game from using the mic or things like that.
quick kayak
Yeah, make sure you have mic setting enabled on the windows setting, disabling that will disable your mic for everything.
ruby needle
As a still native win 7 user this was the first thing i had to find out on the gaming laptop i bought.
It's bullshit.
tribal oxide
😓
quick kayak
I used this laptop that had Windows 7, I can't LUL
Fuck, me typing LUL thinking typing on twitch chat... After I jumped to Win 10, it's just too good imo.
ruby needle
Everytime i sit on a windows 10 machine and stuff breaks i wanna vomit.
My production machines will not be upgraded till there is a really big reason to.
Windows 10 has caused so many issues in specific production enviroments and has so many quirks and flaws.
tribal oxide
After upgrading from windows 7 to windows 10, I lost most of my applications I paid for and I had to get help getting them back
ruby needle
Resitrations and such are a general problem of system reinstall or switch can't blame that on 10
quick kayak
Yeah, specially going from 7 to 10, it's extremely different under the hood, not everything will just work.
Windows 10 when it came out was terrible with compatibility, it's like MS didn't do shit about it.
ruby needle
The biggest issue is just unreliability and unflexibility unless you use third party tools to manipulate the systems
and that just can't be the solution.
Also updates regularely break shit
for me windows 10 remains absolutely unuseable in a ciritcal production enviroment
ignoring all the philosophy and data shit thats its own iceberg
quick kayak
Yeah, there's a new build for W10, it was giving Ryzen users crashing issues, it got fixed apparently, but I'm good with my build.
ruby needle
i basically upgraded my PC the the highest end hardware i can that still supports 7 natively
and i gues that'll have to do me a few years
quick kayak
Yep, the majority of productivity stuff is majorly ran by Win 7 users, I've seen a long time ago in graphs, including gaming too.
ruby needle
win 7 still has 30% market share for a reason
and it's ironic that production companies like elgato stopped supporting it with hardware where it doesnt make any sense
best example their streamdeck
quick kayak
Wasn't MS going to charger Win7 users for updates and shit? ridiculous.
ruby needle
many would have bought one but they just five a fuck about 7
no
official support however is EOL next year
but that doesnt mean it's unusable
which many people make it out to be
heck XP is still used in many places 
anyway, we're going to much offtopic 
quick kayak
yeah, so VRC is cool. 
hybrid fiber
Where would you go to report a specific player? One that claims they are using a vpn and stealing Ip Addresses?
ruby needle
Dont forget you'll need to provide sufficient and clear prove
dont be to worried about people having your IP Adress it's anything but the end of the world.
People might be able to give you a quick package overflow if they feel like it but if thats the case you might wanna phone your net provider and get a investigation going because thats a clear illegal activity in nearly any country and can lead to more then just fines.
Some kiddies going around and trolling people with that have gone to jail for more then just a few weeks for that 😃
hybrid fiber
I would first need more than one instance of the behavior
ruby burrow
Is worth reporting the fool for using a hacked client, but yeah, don't worry about the "stealing IPs" nonsense. Gives them nothing.
hybrid fiber
Aggressively claiming to have it, one user, whether they left or what, I do not know
quick kayak
That's the same thing developers should do with hackers in games, send those fuckers to jail for hacking online games with aimbots and shit.
quick kayak
IP ban doesn't fix the situation.
hybrid fiber
Ik they can just get a new one
Hacking is honestly the most deplorable thing in the world.
I understand if its a local server and you're doing it for fun
quick kayak
Exactly, you think an IP ban is going to keep a hacker from hacking? or a serious consequence like going to jail and facing charges will?
hybrid fiber
But if you are deliberately ruining other peoples fun by doing it
ruby needle
It's not the Dev's job to file a lawsuit if a kiddi attacks your ip
hybrid fiber
Is there a way to at least mention their name so that a closer eye may be kept on them?
quick kayak
Not what I stated, I said in a online game. Such as you playing Apex Legends and having hackers on it.
ruby needle
While they might have gotten the IP form the game (btw any website gets it the moment you connect :))
But the actual abuse is outside of it and has nothing to do with the game.
hybrid fiber
They should build a code into the game that can detect usage of external programs or modified ones
hybrid fiber
"If it were so easy" I love that quote
quick kayak
They've done so many things to detect hackers, but they'll just find other ways, for example, their making aimbots so it's not 100% accurate, so you'll miss a few shots and hit others, that doesn't trigger the anti cheat.
ruby needle
Especially in such a complex game in terms of prediction its really really hard
If this where a game with closed and controlled content you could do a lot by behaviour analys and prediction
vocal shard
People can grab your IP from almost any game. They don't get access to your computer from your IP. They don't even know your location from it
ruby needle
Correct
And honestly the best you can do is ignore the people, all they want is to be in focus
and have fun scaring you
Take away their fun by simply ignoring it
tribal oxide
It's also the same with real life bullies, don't feed the troll
quick kayak
Getting someone’s public IP is nothing, they’re cannot do anything with that other than minute shit.
umbral reef
Then you dont even need there IP as there router is already compromised by someone else-
ruby needle
Do you really expect script kiddies to actually do more then just a package flood at best
That for sure, but the yelling "oh look i got your ip haha" type is
hybrid fiber
So its the equivalent of saying "Well, my father works for Microsoft and he can freeze your account"
For the majority of them
ruby needle
Honestly, most kids are to stupid even if you'd personally show them
hybrid fiber
Which is most people LUL
ruby needle
They'd even run the shadiest mod client on their own PC with prvileges without a single afterthought.
"Oh, and you need to disable your AV and Firewall to run this."
They'll do it
¯_(ツ)_/¯
tribal oxide
Epic
languid beacon
Wait so there was just a kid yelling peoples IP’s trying to scare them? I don’t even freaking know my ip by heart xD
vocal shard
That's a problem
ruby burrow
Why?
vocal shard
1 not knowing your ip and 2 some skid going around with an ip logger thinking he's the next dazx
safe prism
who is dazx
ruby burrow
The kid is an obvious idiot, but I mean why would anyone need to just know their IP off the top of their head?
ruby burrow
Eh? It being quick to check isn't a reason to memorise it though. ._.
vocal shard
It's pretty important to know
ruby burrow
Again, how? Why?
rough pulsar
In some contexts yes. In most, no. If you have a dynamic IP, it's easier to write a small script that just shows it for you whenever you need it.
safe prism
there is literally no reason for a layperson to know their IP
ruby burrow
If it takes 2 seconds to look it up, for what reason would you ever need to be able to just declare it at gunpoint?
safe prism
like shit dude i used to own an ISP and i couldn't tell you what our IPs were off the top of my head. i have this fun thing called DNS and IPAM to do that for me ._.
and even then, automated and irrelevant to me
vocal shard
Gotta love the good old days of people on BO2 trying to use their booters on console
safe prism
ye
tribal oxide
Go
languid beacon
People don’t know their IP for the same reason you don’t know your best friend’s phone number.
covert linden
my mom has memorized all of her best friends numbers
north rock
Key word: mom
pastel dirge
is there a way to check how many people have your public avatar faavorited
tribal oxide
I don't think there is
north rock
I feel like that sort of thing could serve as a good metric for getting avatar creators "noticed"
glossy wraith
yea kinda annoying that i have to jump to random server to find a specific avatar
vocal shard
Just favorite it
marsh fiber
I don't think the person meant it that way, l
like a category for avatar creators?
s0Rry i StaRteD playIng tO0daY
covert linden
Going from world to world is an important game asset that gets creators avatars seen
thats why theyre not just in the menu.
covert linden
can you tell me how a search would work when there are thousands of avatars? most arent even named relative to their design?
glossy wraith
yes exactly
covert linden
Keep in mind all your favourite worlds.
Favourite it. There are many worlds for you to enjoy, and its important for creators that all their avatars can be seen. There are thousands of public avatars, so having a menu with them would be hard, pointless, and youd never find what youre looking for.
covert linden
Search avatar in the corner of worlds, itll show you every single world with the word avatar in the title. works perfectly.
ive been to hundreds of avatar worlds using that method. Theres also an avatar world section of the menu + arecently updated
glossy wraith
ic 👀
north rock
While I don't have ill feelings toward dedicated avatar worlds and seeking out avatars that way, I don't really see how an in-menu avatar browser would be hard or pointless
hybrid fiber
What allows people to bypass avatar cloning?
north rock
Maybe slightly redundant at most, and it would be dependent on avatar creators naming their avatars properly, but aside from that, it seems like a perfectly good addition to me
ruby needle
A addition users would like, but creators would hate unless its optional.
north rock
Why hate it? Because people wouldn't be funneling into their worlds constantly?
What difference does it make to them? Personal glory?
median basalt
Man as an avatar creator, I already dislike avatar cloning to begin with
ruby needle
@north rock well why do people create public avatars? whats their motivation? What can they get back from it? Think about that 😄
median basalt
You may not understand, but when I first joined the game, I had an absolute blast exploring avatar worlds with friends. That seems to be completely dead with the introduction of cloning, and would be even more dead with an avatar browser
Cloning wasn't optional and it kind of ruined a lot of reward avatars
To this day they still haven't listened to those who wanted "pedestal only" options lol
north rock
They're not mutually exclusive, having both is an option. It's just a convenience thing in my eyes
hybrid fiber
I just dont like it because a creator told me to not allow others to clone their avatar
Yet you can just bypass it
ruby needle
if its a public avatar it can easily be changed into with a API request which would be semi grayzone
north rock
@ruby needle Why do they do it? What's the benefit to them, you're asking? Is it not enough to simply do it as a kind gesture?
hybrid fiber
Ikr
north rock
Or just to do it?
hybrid fiber
At least ask
median basalt
As I already said, some avatars are offered as a "reward" for completing the world, or are hidden
Luxerion World is a great example of both
hybrid fiber
It is a private avatar
umbral reef
Lets just ask this instead
How would the browser even work? What gets to be at the top? Will the results rotate so we dont get the same old stuff? What about optimization?
ruby needle
A browser might actually be a thing that could bring creators into mroe optimizing by shoving the values right into everyones face on the pages
Unles you mean listing optimization
rigid crescent
There's nothing wrong with doing things for recognition or attention provided it's the correct type of thing you're doing. Spending X amount of time on a bunch of avatars for a world I spent X amount of time on just for the world to never get visited is kinda counterproductive to that.
north rock
It would probably work like...a browser for anything else? A search function, categorization, etc.
umbral reef
Ow yea as the current search works fine...
hybrid fiber
I spent like 500 hours on a map and it doesnt even work LOL
rigid crescent
That and yeah I'd have to name my avatars something besides some name I used for internal things. For some that means giving a name to dozens of Japanese characters they don't know, others it means going back to hundreds upon hundreds of naruto characters, etc.
I mean it works if all youre doing is "Master Chief" or "Spartan" but once someone gets a popular avatar "Nekochi" or something what's to stop me from naming all my avatars "Nekochi"
north rock
Doesn't sound very difficult to assign the proper name to a character you've spent any number of hours configuring.
rigid crescent
Going back and reuploading every single one, yeah
hybrid fiber
Isn't there a way to automate that?
north rock
I mean, yeah, you'd be a dick to deliberately misname avatars, and it might even become an infraction to do so, but that's on you, not the system.
rigid crescent
No, not really. They can't automatically name my characters
And if my characters are kitbash OCs, then how would anyone even find it to begin with?
hybrid fiber
The majority of the time though, unless its a custom made avatar, doesnt the texture data have the character name in it?
rigid crescent
So now I can't name my avatar Sakura because some other person named their avatar Sakura? It's an infraction?
No?
I've never had a model like that actually lol
hybrid fiber
Oh lol. All my models are like that
north rock
If you're just kitbashing for your own sake, it's not very important for others to find it. Hell, if they wanna find it, that's what your avatar world is for. Like I said, the system isn't mutually exclusive with avatar worlds.
hybrid fiber
Mass Effect, Zelda, Fallout
north rock
It's there to supplement the process.
rigid crescent
So what is it meant to help find?
umbral reef
You realize most avatars in this game even in avatar worlds are kitbashes? \
rigid crescent
Videogame characters?
Basically non-OC characters because that's all it can really help find...
north rock
Then how about they, I dunno, search it by the name of the avatar creator?
hybrid fiber
I I just use the word (modified)
Is kitbashing making an avatar from parts of other avatars, basically?
rigid crescent
Most avatar creators with public avatars have worlds. Now that's just making a system for a few people making bad meme avatars lol
north rock
If you poorly name and poorly tag or avatars, they won't be as discoverable through the browser. If they're kitbashed to hell, you can do your best to name/tag them appropriately, and if that's not enough, fine. They can find it the old fashioned way. None of these are actual criticisms against the system, they're just pushing the limits of what it's meant for.
umbral reef
Il make another remark about it
World searching is pure garbage with its OR instead of AND searching and only searching on the name.
Having proper world searching makes finding specific avatar worlds easier
rigid crescent
So I'd search Kareeda and hundred of avatars would appear and likely break it, and then I'd search Mic_Sounders and find like 4 because I'm likely one of the few exceptions to the rule
north rock
Likely break what?
rigid crescent
Too many avatars still breaks the list.
The limits? you just keep addings things and we show reasons they're not that great of an idea lol
north rock
Okay, but that's not a criticism of an avatar browser feature. That's a criticism of the general game UI.
ruby needle
The ingame one that is.
rigid crescent
The system you're suggesting basically only helps find videogame and already existing characters is what I'm saying
because nothing else will have a searchable name
north rock
I don't really know what you mean, Mic. Nothing you've said has actually invalidated the feasibility of the system in a valid way.
rigid crescent
It's not that it isn't feasible to implemet, it just seems like a waste to do so
I'm sure they could probably drop it in a week if they wanted to, it's just a name search but for avatar IDs
north rock
Well, for one, even if that were the case, what's wrong with that? Would it hurt for that to be the case? Because I don't see how having an alternative method to discovering avatars, potentially more efficiently than scouring worlds, would be bad.
rigid crescent
Well it's adding another way to bypass going to worlds, which just makes less of a reason for people to create and put work into them
north rock
I don't see it as wasteful. Like I already said, maybe a little redundant, but it's a completely valid means to an end.
rigid crescent
then there's the argument Rokk made about hidden prize avatars which still don't have a way to stay uncloneable
north rock
That's not an argument, that is an unfortunate side effect of avatar cloning.
rigid crescent
the fact it'll only find certain creators avatars due to it really only finding existing characters
north rock
Which is irrelevant.
ruby needle
You call it irrelevant
rigid crescent
Irrelevant? It makes the "unfortuante side effect" even worse...
umbral reef
System is non functioning in most cases unless an complete revamp of the uploading system happens
Having a better world searching will result also in easier finding of specific avatars without the need of a new system and remaking loads.
We have no proper idea on what avatar should be first in the list (or when it should not anymore)
ruby needle
A lot of Artists however are allready really mad about cloning in general especially that there are nor 16 slots.
rigid crescent
That's like saying the IK lag issues are irrelevant. They're just an unfortuante side effect of networked IK, something we need.
north rock
We're not even talking about the cloning system here. It is irrelevant because it is an entirely separate system.
umbral reef
And yes- Its non functioning if i want an specific type of avatar.
Now i can jump worlds to find one that has loads in my style and pick from there.
Searching 'boy, demon, white' wont help in any way at all for example
But me slapping 'Link' in will get me faster stuff
north rock
People cloning avatars is not somehow an argument against an avatar browser.
rigid crescent
It's an implementation that, currently, makes another issue worse.
north rock
What kind of...seriously?
Because people will have easier access to avatars, it's worsening things?
rigid crescent
"it's an entirely separate system" doesn't mean they can't affect one another.
hybrid fiber
^
ruby needle
If you can't see that there is 2 sides to the problem then there is no reason to discuss with you about it 😃
rigid crescent
Tru
umbral reef
Atwyxt- How will they have better acess
ruby needle
There is the User and there is the Creator view
dapper isle
anyone having issues uploading?
ruby needle
Ofc users would take anything in that regard. Any second. For a user there is ofc zero drawback.
hybrid fiber
I did a while ago
north rock
Then picture this-- and this is not very difficult to comprehend so please consider it-- provide uploaders the ability to permit an avatar to be cloned (since that's apparently what the concern is here) or, more relevantly to what I'm actually talking about, discoverable in this avatar browser.
dapper isle
yeah when i go to upload instead of letting me enter a name or description it just takes me to the normal game tab
north rock
Not a hard concept.
rigid crescent
Yeah turning off cloning has already been something peopel wanted since before the system dropped lol
Wtihin minutes of the post made....7 months ago
north rock
Yeah, and they should do that, correct? As such, I don't feel that their failure to do so should serve as an argument against a browser.
So did anything I say reflect any merit on my point? Because I kind of feel like it was just shut down entirely for the reason that people "wouldn't visit avatar worlds as much".
umbral reef
Still- How will proper searching work.
Will we be using tags? If so do we have pre set tags or can we go wild. Both have drawbacks.
The previous started naming problem is also still there, having 200 avatars names 'Oclac' wont make it any easier searching if you want the oclac avatar.
Also what decides what avatar gets to be first on the list for a search?
north rock
If 4 other people don't chip in questions in the next 20 seconds, I'll be able to get through yours, so lemme
Aaand I jinxed it
rigid crescent
"mostly just used" time to go to a few avatar worlds just to prove a point...then again I did it with the publics when people complained about that and got nowhere lol
Why wouldn't we hear anything
north rock
Tags seem like a perfectly appropriate thing to use for an avatar browser. They allow creators to provide a little more discoverable criteria to their works than just the model's name alone. They could tag it with the name of the creator, the world it's in, any characters they used in the kitbash, any particular props or effects on it, etc.
Redundancy in the avatars you find in the browser is a natural consequence, for better or worse. Many may use the same model but some may be of higher quality than others, and it's really up to the end user whether they want to scour through them all to find the most suitable one. That's up to them.
It doesn't really matter which one comes first in a search, if you ask me. It could literally be in alphabetical order. They could have filters by popularity, date added, that sort of thing.
rigid crescent
3 in may, 3 in April, 3 in march
north rock
@umbral reef
rigid crescent
one is responding to outcry
Community Labs, DB limits, pretty in-depth Index controller stuff, DB limits, another Community Labs post
Players getting their avatars in as official Quest supported models
info on crossplay and the new hub
the only outcry posts, which are pretty well done as well, are the information about the IK changes and issues it caused, and websockets I believe
umbral reef
1: How will the tags be implemented? Current avatars will have to get them reuploaded? Cant automate it as thats not how éverthing' works.
2: So unoptimized, low effort avatars get the same promotion as well polished high end ones? Would reward quick spamming of avatars instead of making high end ones for avatar worlds like happens RN.
3: It does matter as it depends what avatar most users will be trying out. You also use the first 5 links on google and nothing past that so why would you use any version of an avatar type thats past the first set?
rigid crescent
both of which are stilll good reads and a good step towards communication
So....they aren't just silent with no information outside of response to outcry? 🤔
because we've been getting a lot
If people are happy with it, why would they take action
umbral reef
Its baby steps though- Loads is being done but barely anything is being properly shared/announced beside 'power users' (aka, users who actively look for info or want to be mentioned for it)
A large part of the userbase do not know whats new in the updates unless someone tells them directly.
rigid crescent
"The crowd is angry, we should take action" Good
"The crowd doesn't seem angry, we should take action anyway." Why?
umbral reef
Having a way to properly communicate for example updates, the support page and way to contact them would help loads imo-
For my part they do it like discord where they announce each update ingame.
Having an ( i ) button that links to tuppers neatly written support website and include the contact info bigtime there
rigid crescent
I'm sure there's a word for it that I just can't think of but what you said jsut seemed to have no point. They only act when there's an issue. Yeah, well I only scratch when i'm itchy. What's the point? lol
When else should they act?
I know what the canny is
So again, if "people", people being ingame, in discord, on the canny, etc are content why mess with it then?
Making a lot of people content is a lot easier than making a lot of people happy
When "mediocre" means a working VR game that allows people to interact and create however they'd like, then yeah, mediocrity is pretty cool
That's what the creators originally seem to have wanted. Outside of the damage people do (crashing, hacking, whatever) it's fine as it is, we just need a bit less lawlessness while still keeping the creative freedom
north rock
-
If they could add in a way for creators to add tags to their existing avatars without reuploading, that would be ideal. Otherwise, yes, they would probably need to be reuploaded with tags in order to make use of the tagging system. Otherwise, they will only be discoverable by name, just like worlds and their tags.
-
Filtering by popularity/use could effectively counter that for at least the more popular avatars. Otherwise, an upvote/downvote system can be introduced to rep high-quality avatars while keeping low-quality ones at the back of the line. "Spamming" low-quality uploads can be easily traced to an account, which can be seen as an infraction and result in those avatars being removed or, in particularly malicious cases, bannable.
-
Again, filters and a +/- rep system can remedy this. Otherwise, it's just down to how many any particular user is willing to try out. Nothing particularly wrong with that. @umbral reef
rigid crescent
the majority want communication and as far as things people want that's the easiest thing to do, and it makes sense to keep doing
People want to know what's happening. The people who don't know they want it still LIKE to know what's happening.
Any form of 2-way communication outside of an unscripted interview, which would be dumb on their part, is one-way communication
languid beacon
Lotsa negativity here :0
I’ll take it as you are all very passionate about vrc and want the best for it
rigid crescent
Because all the negative feedback has died down and people realize it's not a big deal lol
there's like 5 people still complaining and they're all here
languid beacon
Yeah I don’t really see any issues with the trust system when I’m not on this discord.
rigid crescent
Eh I've got plenty of free time today, might as well do the survey I've been meaning to do. I've even got an OL avatar to do it in now 👌
languid beacon
Network IK? I hear about that all the time and they’re addressing it. Trust system? They’re probably not doing anything because despite what you may think, most people are fine with it
median basalt
Except the people who left lol
languid beacon
I do but I have full confidence it will work well by release
rigid crescent
lol
median basalt
Neos is a cult
rigid crescent
Sorry I'd rather play a game with others playing it
median basalt
And has no future as far as I see it
rigid crescent
they peak at like 20-30
median basalt
I tried it with 6 friends and we broke the peak for that day
rigid crescent
I'd bank more money on Lavender than Neos at this point
median basalt
Yep
languid beacon
Are we even allowed to talk about Neos? It looks promising but it’s way too early and rough
rigid crescent
High Fidelity shot themslevse in the foot and I'd still put more money on them maknig a comeback
median basalt
Also no offense but the largest critics of the trust system have been banned or ostracized from this DIscord so of course you wouldn't see them
languid beacon
Of course it has no users. If not for Knuckles memes vrc wouldn’t either
median basalt
Neos will never be a thing unfortunately
rigid crescent
You're absolutely right tbh
median basalt
The UX is showing no signs of improvement
Well one of the mods here removes shit based on hearsay from vrg so "banned people are bad" doesn't really fly
rigid crescent
I mean in a week or two assuming IK isn't fixed then we'll see if I hear complaints about it ingame like I do the IK
languid beacon
Vrc has a ton of users and that can lead people into a false impression that this game is much more finished and ready for prime time than it really is
median basalt
The IK will never go back to the way it was because you can't interpolate the hands as well as before.
rigid crescent
Because Trust System complaints ingame died down so fast
So it'll be an everlasting "issue" like the IK
median basalt
People got used to it, doesn't mean anyone likes the system when questioned
That too
rigid crescent
There's liking it and there's "eh it doesn't matter"
"privates in cliques" you mean hanging out with friends?
median basalt
Fez don't bother discussing the trust system with this guy
rigid crescent
I can't even phrase this without sounding rude, but do you have any experience with freinds and social groups IRL? When I want to just be with my friends, I don't often go into a bar hoping a bunch of people will talk to me...
median basalt
Mic, I consider you a cool guy on almost every subject, but your logic becomes incredibly backwards when faced with the trust system
languid beacon
Complains about IK wont go away until people are happy with it. It ruined dancing. It ruined basic interaction. They are gonna take that seriously.
median basalt
It's weird because we agree on a lot of other things
Yeah because it affects streamers lol
languid beacon
That’s not a bad thing
rigid crescent
I go by what I hear ingame from "normla" more than what I hear here. This place has a lot more well informed users, and they're not the majority by a LONGSHOT.
what I hear from the average player is "eh i dont really care"
they care more about the IK, crashers, and literally just getting FPS
languid beacon
I hear complains about IK every day I’m in-game
median basalt
The average player wasn't around for its introduction
rigid crescent
They should still be affected by it.
median basalt
There's no spirit of development in this game anymore so the average person won't give a shit.
languid beacon
That is not my experience
umbral reef
Power users being pleased with a system (not always but most of the time) means its a solid system thats healthy for the core community-
Its why those power users get to beta test things normally in games and give feedback more direct in loads of games.
rigid crescent
They care about the state as far as their enjoyment goes. They're obviously not very impacted by the Trust system as far as their enjoyment goes.
languid beacon
Yeah if they were we would hear about it, like Rokk for example
rigid crescent
lol at least a handful of these "power users" in beta can't even use unity or flat out don't have it
languid beacon
Rokk was effected pretty badly
rigid crescent
In a similar vein I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum with the IK issues. I've seen and have had next to none, definitely not enough to complain, but I can still acnkolwedge it's an issue because of what I see around me
floral flaxBOT
There are 5945 users in VRChat currently
umbral reef
And social systems are hard to judge on.
Both sides tbh got jack shit to go off on. We cant claim the trust system really effects people negatively with an bias and no one can say its not doing that. We are not psychology majors here and RN we are using the same logic that big Tech companies use to judge if a system works or should be tweaked what does not work for human stuff
umbral reef
@rigid crescent There is a reason i never stated this game does it- Other games do and that often shows...
rigid crescent
That's the reason the interest was garnered
languid beacon
There are people who don’t touch games like this because 1.) it has a early access label 2.) they don’t have VR yet 3.) it’s not yet impressive enough
umbral reef
Users staying is also extremely important to an games life @languid beacon
If all avatar makes quit right now, didnt update there documentation at all anymore and stop giving support (or even lowered by like 50% of what it is RN) the growth can be still there but other users wont turn into power users and odds of getting them to make content to show instead of just consume gets lower. Its what loads of older games/platforms/products suffer from
Legit think of Tupper not making that mmd uploading tutorial or all the people who made up to date versions
Or the tricks that are documented now to solve FBT or Cats plugin.
Think of those people leaving because a system makes them angry face.
While new users love it. Its a net gain in numbes but a loss long time
rigid crescent
They've greatly surpassed their milestone for the next few years while still staying within their core "values" of letting creation be almost complete freedom
languid beacon
I don’t think VRC is at the “ support users” stage yet. I think they got a lot of people sooner than expected and hope we don’t make too much noise while they continue to make the platform
ruby burrow
Mhmm. I'd say it would actually be detrimental to the game overall, if we continued growing too fast.
The game does not yet have a secure monetisation method, and more players equals higher costs.
languid beacon
We’re in the good old days. Enjoy it
ruby burrow
A smaller creative base and talent pool might mean we won't get to see as many cool worlds and fancy avatars as soon, but it's not going to kill the game.
north rock
Well I sure hope these aren't the "good old days"
ruby burrow
As much as I personally love the creative freedom we have and exploring it, the truth is that the vast majority of users are in the game to chat and are happy enjoying the simpler side of things.
If all the power users left tomorrow (which would still be awful, don't get me wrong), the majority of the player base would still be happy doing basic MMD headswaps and playing with rudimentary particle toys, and the game would go on.
vocal shard
Okay what's a power user I've never heard that term before
languid beacon
Hard to swallow pills xD
ruby burrow
In this sense I'm using it to refer to the more technically oriented content creators and such.
languid beacon
A power user is person who knows the game inside and out and spends a ton of time on it and uses almost every facet of it
umbral reef
@vocal shard Tl;dr
A user who goes past the pure basis of a game.
Within an mmo it can mean doing end boss runs, starting a guild and ect.
For this discord it means the people who are constantly active for example .
languid beacon
In vrchat’s case a power user would be a world owner, a person with a huge collection of public avatars, event hosts, full body users. Etc
rigid crescent
We do absolutely nothing here that affects core users though.
except maybe complain enough to get advertisements to be allowed in avatar worlds but that's a stretch tbh
ruby burrow
Well I didn't mean this discord. I just meant players of VRC in general.
languid beacon
Everyone who isn’t a casual user
umbral reef
So the insane amount of users joining here for support/info dont count?
Or the places that popped up because of this to further specific groups (world creators, avatar making and ect)
Power users mean jack shit for VRchat unless they are a streamer from what it looks.
But to other users its important
rigid crescent
Well very few streamers that are relevant are informed whatsoever and the ones who are can't talk about it so
they're just commercials
vocal shard
Vrchat politics
ruby burrow
Wait, don't count for what? I lost track. '-'
rigid crescent
There's an abyssmal "open discussion" that's had so much misinformation in it that it was painful
and it has hundreds of viewers lol
umbral reef
@ruby burrow Dont count as normal users.
People like Rokk wont need basic support while normal users do, as is the reason they often chat or join this server
rigid crescent
the only times its' been good was when there were friends of mine on it (world/avatar creators) that actually knew what they were talking about and knew when to call out bad info
so streamers definitely aren't influencers as far as being "power users" lol
except for Drek getting us that livestream 
they're entertainers and advertisers for the game, which there's nothing wrong with, but most don't seem to know much outside of making an avatar thicc
umbral reef
Natsix is for sure a power user, they dont have the reach anymore but they often called out bullshit-
vocal shard
Making an avatar thicc is pretty important tho
rigid crescent
It definitely is an important skill to have
vocal shard
Agreed
deep schooner
Anyone in the discord server for BIGI's avatars? The link is broke in the world.
vocal shard
Not all users are created equal
deep schooner
Yeah, I contacted them and they gave me a link, all sorted 😃
primal spear
does anyone know how to add an object into a hand and have audio to play when that gesture happens?
vocal shard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC6sW4kJwa8 @primal spear ^
median basalt
I disagree, I think the game would slowly start dying if all the power users left
People forget that no power users also means no interesting worlds for in-between
vocal shard
The game would be bland and repetitive
median basalt
Like game worlds, or luxerion
Well competition is always good, even if you think the game is already perfect.
umbral reef
As i stated before, no power users means new users will be pleased but anyone wanting to play longer or learn more will be dissatisfied hardcore.
median basalt
The game is more interested in gathering more new users
I think they might also be translating the game
ruby needle
Isn't that just steam users on the counter?
primal spear
i wanna do a flat image, i have everything ready to go but idk how to assemble it
ruby needle
If it still is then the real number would be much higher
with oculus client users
and now quest too
umbral reef
Pretty sure its users ingame on all platforms
As when the oculus build dropped we didnt see a dip in users
ruby burrow
It's not referring to anyone having power.
umbral reef
Power users isnt to be taken literally :notlikethis:
ruby burrow
Perhaps it'd be better to refer to them as technical users or just creatives, as far as this discussion goes.
All I was trying to say earlier, was that whilst the talented content creators are obviously vital for keeping things fresh, what the game offers to most, is still something separate from fun game worlds or advanced avatars.
languid beacon
Udon will change everything. It’s pointless to speculate about vrchat as we know it now since it will fundamentally change
Yes we do
ruby burrow
Whilst I for example really want Final-IK working properly again, and working better for full body too, 99.9% of the player base doesn't even know what it is, and would barely be affected with or without it.
(Still... plz fix devs. 😦 )
languid beacon
If you want to propose a theory that the devs are lying that’s one thing
I’d enjoy hearing it
I’m interested in hearing your opinion please elaborate
Thought so
umbral reef
I dont think they have nothing but at the same time- We dont know what they really have... The original announcement and a photo is all content we really have seen.
ruby burrow
That's how development usually works, yes.
languid beacon
We have been promised something that is already more powerful than playmaker. If you believe that a a lie, that’s one thing but i’d like some proof
umbral reef
Take a look at how factorio is run for example
Not for nothing the game is so highly praised even with the insanely dumb actions that have happened in the past with there team.
stable pilot
so.. any reason to fix something that wasn't broken (ik)?
languid beacon
It was choking big rooms
vocal shard
Optimization
ruby burrow
Performance.
languid beacon
It got me way better fps on my gtx 970 tbh
umbral reef
Also its gonna take a while for udon worlds to be properly made and would be neat to actually be able to search worlds with an AND instead of an OR function
languid beacon
If the tracking wasn’t scuffed none of you would be complaining
ruby burrow
Was the limiter on the game ever reaching higher player caps per instance. The old IK would inherently grind the game to a halt once you passed a certain point even with all avatars disabled and in an empty world.
umbral reef
@languid beacon > If X thing thats core to a system was not broken it would be perfect.
Well yea- But it isnt so
languid beacon
I want Network IK fixed. I don’t want it removed. I like my new framerate
umbral reef
Also its scuffed tracking, delay, desync in long lasting rooms and more...
stable pilot
its crazy how they don't have proper test servers / worlds
vocal shard
They would need thousands of people to properly test the ik
umbral reef
Something like desktop users heads snapping back could be found out tho-
But most indeed cant be tested when its network related
stable pilot
i just hope vrc can settle on a stable release after summer's over so i've got something to do again without immersion breaking stuff <3
ruby burrow
It did, but they were short on time in this case, and like said, a couple dozen users in low pop instances wouldn't be able to properly test it anyway.
languid beacon
Yeah it’s as if they are treating like it’s still in early access and everyone is a test user who was told this before installing
ruby burrow
The issues with desync and such, are only really possible to see in the real game with high pop rooms.
Before the networked IK, loads of people here had been both suggesting it and very keen on the idea once it was announced as being planed.
stable pilot
everyone who doesn't understand and are able to conclude it'll be an improvement, they'll get excited.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
ruby burrow
What do you mean "doesn't understand"? It was all the more technically minded users that suggested and vouched for it.
stable pilot
i'm just stating a common trait in a vast majority of masses with people :^)
ruby burrow
People only changed their mind due to the unexpected issues it brought, which we have no way of knowing whether they're an inherent and unavoidable problem with the system, or just an early teething problem that can be ironed out entirely.
umbral reef
Was it inexpected tho? We already had delay in voip and stuff so with an IK system it was even more logical
Same for users dropping connection and packet loss being a big problem
With IK it just becomes all worse
Someone being 'tech smart' does not mean they still know shit about the system properly
ruby burrow
I don't recall anyone ever predicting it.
stable pilot
what is the network IK dependable on? your own internet, servers?
umbral reef
@stable pilot Everything really
Its a long complex system to explain and a someone who only fully understands parts of these systems its hard to give a proper tl;dr without kinda lying about how it works
rough pulsar
Last night someone had a severe desync between their voice and physical actions.
Like, you'd hear them say something then literally a second and a half to two seconds later they'd make the appropriate movements.
rigid crescent
oh god lol
vocal shard
https://twitter.com/drekwiz/status/1132161216825008128?s=19 best physical demonstration of this
rigid crescent
as of last night worst I've had was someone trying to rest their head on me so i would adjust but they'd adjust then I'd adjsut and they'd adjust so i jsut stopped because they were actually trying to fall asleep lol
stable pilot
not very good for a game carried by interactions like that
umbral reef
Big odds thats because VOIP is direct while IK works from 'VRchat servers'
rough pulsar
The problem wasn't the overall latency, it was the fact different aspects had different latency. >:C
Oh yeah, shit that makes sense now
umbral reef
And because i cba to sniff shit out within this game im just making guesses from previous experiences- So dont quote me on shit i say
shell trench
Where are my Cheese Itz!!!!!!
umbral reef
They could maybe use a server setup where EU has fast conenction with EU but the same as its RN to others.
Leaps more expensive though and a debugging nightmare so not odd they dont have this complex stuff
rigid crescent
TCL is pretty lit
umbral reef
Is the OSC stuff still scuffed btw?
Also funny side note- Current IK allows shaders and clients to solve most problems.
And the shader stuff 'fix' is from what i get only useable in video's
Not for live performance
languid beacon
umbral reef
Hmm- Also seems most Google products are having problems but thats #general-media talk
twin iron
Hello everyone! Hope everyone’s evening is going well. Does any have information on how to merge your VRchat account with the main website account? I’ve never played on steam so how is it done oculus to website? Thank you for the help.
umbral reef
No current way to do it with an oculus account
twin iron
That sucks. So how does one move up in trust then without constantly being online?
vocal shard
Make a vrc account
umbral reef
You presumably need to play the game in a normal manner with your VRChat account, walking around, meeting people and also making some friends. Idling won't help.
According to many responses in this discord, a rough estimate would be 20-40 hours, but big exceptions are possible.
Make sure you are not using a steam or oculus account because those can not be verified and continue playing the game until you get a notification or e-mail.
http://help.vrchat.com/kb/article/27-why-cant-i-upload-avatars-or-worlds-yet```So if you play with oculus you’ll be a guest forever?
Was hoping to avoid starting from scratch after two weeks of continuous participation.
vocal shard
oh well
ruby needle
Oculus acconts are not mergable yet
but they will become a option to be merged just like with steam currently
umbral reef
🤷
Nothing to do about it, best to bite the bullet RN.
And Fpaul, we got told about it ages ago and still no update on it so...
twin iron
Thank you Paul, any idea on the timeline for that,
umbral reef
Welp time to sleep for me
👋
ruby needle
Yes
pastel dirge
i was asking about some way to check stats of uploaded avatars like how many cloned it etc, same as how worlds count how many visitors a day use it eec
just to keep track how many people uses certain avatars
ruby needle
And what @brisk bone i specifically pointed out yet
languid beacon
You should be able to merge oculus accounts sooner than later devs said it’s coming. Now that quest users are coming it it’ll be important very soon
ruby needle
adding to the statement
twin iron
So no exact timeline correct
ruby needle
Correct
languid beacon
Nope
twin iron
People are so quick to dismiss you without that trust level
languid beacon
I don’t think people care about it as much as you think
I am purple and I hide as green because people are friendlier
rigid crescent
Same, for me it's more of a meme about not flexing lol
but i honestly don't care, i forget about my rank until someone brings it up here or ingame lol
umbral reef
Also I meant the 505 guy mic
vocal shard
umbral reef
Just found out funny with the statements he made
languid beacon
Oh sorry I have blue discord name chat disabled
rigid crescent
Yeah no one has said shit to me ever outside of "wait you're green?" when it's someone who knows me or knows how often i play, etc
twin iron
I just wish there was a more universal and expedient way to authenticate trust sooner
umbral reef
That no one cares/looks at it by now
rigid crescent
It's pretty quick all in all, i played fairly naturally on my alt and got it in a few hours but yeah its weird when someone is like "it's been literally weeks" lol
vocal shard
rigid crescent
and once I get on and slog through publics and ask a ton of users about theri experiences, and it ends up being "eh i mean no one really says anything"?
vocal shard
99% of the time I have nameplates turned off so I don't notice it that much
rigid crescent
sadly I don't plan on editing tons of footage so
queen mango
There he goes..
And I don't see that kind of stigma in the worlds I go that have people.
rigid crescent
I mean it's not really a bias if I go to publics and say "hey have you experienced any issues due to your rank?" to users and under. no point in asking my friends if they've ever done it
So actual "normal" players saying that they haven't been affected by it doesn't mean anything?
umbral reef
I don't get why is even an topic
Why not just remove the colors so that the edge cases are no more?
Boom, ez fix that's 5 Euros pleas
rigid crescent
completely candidly asked about this. Users and under.
only in publics, none of them who I know or are friends with and asking while I have a green tag
hell I don't mind hopping on my new user alt to do it
ruby burrow
I've never really seen any rank discrimination myself. I do still agree that the system would be better if it didn't broadcast it so openly, but don't believe it's a major issue either.
rigid crescent
It's helped a lot of non-streamers tho, just like the camera has 🤔
ruby needle
openly color coding might not have been the smartest, i agree
rigid crescent
it's not, but the point is "are people getting shit on or not" because if it doesn't matter the argument for both "take it out" and "leave it in" are just as relevant as one another, except "Take it out" means they actually have potential to break shit
ruby needle
the system would work just as well without the nametag color coding.
twin iron
Agreed @ruby needle
umbral reef
The ranking to is core is flawed with his many bad users are in all ranks
But that's legit a meme to fix as to trying to think of something fool proof
@ruby needle funny shit when the system came out and I said that people hated the idea.
Now it's hard to find someone who doesn't think it's a good one
twin iron
Because they have the color now lol
umbral reef
But ey second round of me trying to sleep in this good forsaken heat
twin iron
All I’m saying is if they’re going to allow steam users the option to upgrade and authenticate then oculus should as well
queen mango
Haven't they already announced that?
ruby needle
they will it's just not implemented yet.
twin iron
Cool
umbral reef
Hf waiting for that tho as we got no word on it so far I know beside the original comment
Can be a week can be another year
meager solstice
what more do u want besides them saying its coming? an exact date?
queen mango
A few months would be my bet. As long as they don't rush it.
meager solstice
probably will go into beta just like the steam one did
umbral reef
Close to, more then one comment about 'we want to do it' before it drops.
Saying if it's close on the roadmap or far down is even enough lmao. Or if they even care about it en.
umbral reef
They get am icon already so
vocal shard
Yeah I still think the colours should go
tacit plank
Ranks affect icons?
vocal shard
But I like the look of the purple it's a nice color :'(
meager solstice
nuisance u get an icon
tacit plank
Oh, yeah, trusted+ doesn't though
umbral reef
Wait they did? Didn't even realize does explain some stuff
tacit plank
Colors are playtime + things uploaded + friends added. Useful for new users, they know who to ask for help
That said, a lot of trusted users are assholes, and getting trusted is easy (and getting increasingly easier as everybody are boosting eachother with their trust ranking)
umbral reef
@tacit plank or join an place with proper support and don't let anyone even if they know Jack sir do that job
tacit plank
It's all 3. If you add 200 people, upload 20 avatars and a world, I'm fairly sure you will be at least trusted
umbral reef
Well this time the charm
Night
tacit plank
Also, there's systems in place to stop ranking from being AFK, did you take such into account?
Goodnight
ruby burrow
I hit trusted about a month after the system was implemented. Started as known.
tacit plank
My friends all ranked up when they started uploading content, they're almost all "trusted" now, a few are legend (also called veteran), but they have public worlds up
ruby burrow
Was pretty much right when I made a world, but I was also around 300 friends at that point.
rigid crescent
Started Trusted, as did most of my friends and the few that didn't were on release
tacit plank
And I meant they know who to ask for help with things like controls, good worlds, shaders, textures, uploading avatars, etc. They shouldn't have to post on this Discord for any VRChat information when there's lots of knowledgeable users
rigid crescent
The active ones I hung out with at least
vocal shard
It's not that straight forward. I know ones who had close to a thousand hours, uploaded lots of avatars and played since mid 2017, but they weren't trusted. While others with no uploaded content we're trusted
lunar shell
Maybe a dice roll!
tacit plank
Maybe they haven't added a lot of people, it's all 3 factors
rigid crescent
It's probably still geared heavily towards the "quality" of friends as well
ruby burrow
One thing I've wondered, is whether the direction of the friend requests make a difference.
tacit plank
I know it seems like I'm simplifying it, but my friends all have the ranking I expect them to have when I check, and I can basically predict when they will change
vocal shard
They used to hang out with people like spazkoga and matsix. They had plenty of friends who were all high ranks. Oddly enough, when they merged their old steam account with barely any time on it, they jumped to trusted
tacit plank
If they told you how to get it, it would be gamed
I don't know how the merging works, I never played with it myself. It might add a little much
They'll probably figure out a way to rank up fast, fairly sure I could do it myself
vocal shard
Considering auto friending dlls are being thrown around they already have 😉
tacit plank
But the biggest issue now is that bans are too few, so trusted users are rarely trust worthy
If they banwaved the automated friend requests they could get a lot of people lol
rigid crescent
Apparently that person I always quote as being banned 3 times? They're on their fourth
So banned 3 times and 1 temp ban
They're definitely too lax lol
Yes you can. Not everyone is going to use a vpn or go through the effort of finding all their friends or whatever else.
tacit plank
Finding people with modded avatars, 1M polygon avatars in their avatar worlds, and with blinding shaders is easy, and I avoid "bad worlds"
rigid crescent
If I perma'd 100 people and only 10 stick then I've made progress.
tacit plank
modded clients I meant, I need sleep
If you perma 100, they will tell their friends to be less obvious about their dickish behaviour out of fear of losing their accounts with high ranks and many avatars
ruby burrow
The system has been significantly positive for the game and overall userbase in my opinion. Certainly not perfect, but what is.
rigid crescent
There's only so many ways to hide it, many don't ever see even a first ban because they're not reported.
tacit plank
I don't like being too strict, but go to random avatar worlds and quite a lot of them will have modded the SDK
twin iron
Plenty of them @brisk bone
tacit plank
It should be easy to check avatar worlds, it should be very easy to detect when avatars are uploaded on a modded SDK, etc.
ruby burrow
Who said to report everyone and everything? >_>
tacit plank
If I was a mod I could probably find 20 people who deserves a ban in a single session. That's 1000s of hours of invested playtime by malicious users
The ratio of work for a troll and a mod is fairly big, it shouldn't be that hard to at least cut down on bad users
If people want to be nude with their friends, I don't care. But don't blind an entire instance or upload avatar worlds with horrible avatars
rigid crescent
I know it's not a negative word, but I don't why you try and call them cliques with an effort to make ti sound bad, you know it has negative connotations the way you use it.
They're just groups of friends. That's it. at their core they're not diffreent than the ones I've had irl
groups of people who enjoy one anothers company doing so in the privacy of a friends+ or higher room
tacit plank
Until recently, mods visited every world and profiled every avatar, and told users if they had too many dynamic bones or materials
median basalt
Yeah I agree, this game has absolutely zero ingame moderation and it desperately needs some.
tacit plank
Recently, I found a public avatar with 995K polygons. Uploaded by a trusted user
median basalt
They don't need eyes literally anywhere but they need people that actually exist
tacit plank
I just want a balance between the two
ruby burrow
Automating the world approval process was a vital move ultimately, and the only way for the game to continue with a growing userbase.
But the labs system does need some improved tools for allowing and encouraging users to accurately rate and report worlds.
median basalt
How about
rigid crescent
At peak hours there's plenty of people in publics. I'm not understanding why you need to call them cliques, you act like no one is allowed to hang out with their friends outside of publics or it's a bad thing
median basalt
Run the optimization bot on every world continuously, or only through labs or whatever. Just continuously.
Make avatars private if they exceed the limits, automatically.
rigid crescent
If I want to be with just my friends in an Invite Only, Invite Plus, or Friends+, why is that bad?
ruby burrow
You can basically compare community labs to youtube. Imagine if every video ever posted had to be personally and manually reviewed before it went public. Absolute utter impossibility.
rigid crescent
You sound bitter over people wanting to be with one anothe
tacit plank
They did it until recently, not hard, just takes too much time
boreal kelp
I haven't heard of VRChat having 'cliques'. I've only seen groups of users ha ha
queen mango
Cliques? Never heard that word being used.
ruby burrow
Stuff like setting up a bot to work something like Rokk suggests, does sound like a logical feature to add.
median basalt
Well there are definitely cliques of people and publics now sorta suck because the cool people are in privates
rigid crescent
It's basically just Fez being upset about it without evre saying why...
tacit plank
But public avatars that are 10 times over the "very bad" limit.. I just think there's a way to detect these and preventing them from appearing in public avatar worlds
north rock
It is certainly a matter of perspective
I side more with Fez on this but I can definitely see the reason in what you say, Mic
rigid crescent
You HAVE to stay in publics? why?
boreal kelp
By bad avatars.. do you mean over the poly limit, hideous or eye-searing shaders, or nudity/NSFW content?
rigid crescent
Everyone i grouping in front of mirrors and blocking approachers? come on
You really buy that? You think ANYONE buys that?
tacit plank
People mainly went to private when it came out that people can force-download your Unitypackage, making CATS anti-steal, the private avatar tag, and every other avatar protection method useless
I don't know if it was fixed though
median basalt
Obviously you have to stay in publics if you don't have online friends
boreal kelp
I heard disabling future-proofing helps
median basalt
People go to private worlds over many reasons, some of which are legitimate and some are fearmongering.
Tupper's avatar got yoinked because he had future proofing on, I heard.
rigid crescent
What.....
placid umbra
rigid crescent
THe only discords I'm in are the groups of friends I've made ingame, I didn't join any with the intent of maknig friends
tacit plank
Bad avatars: 2500 dynamic bone transforms, 250K polygons, shaders and particles which blinds everyone who are able stay in the instance without crashing
rigid crescent
I can't really say this a nice way, but do you think the way you are is what prevents you from making friends?...
Maybe your mindset
boreal kelp
Oh, I see what you mean @tacit plank
median basalt
The future proofing part is true btw, there have been several occasions where stealers can grab your avatar's original unity package thanks to future proofing. I've personally spoken to someone who got a hold of Tupper's model that way, shape keys and shaders intact and all
boreal kelp
Unoptimized avatars
tacit plank
I don't even mind these things unless when they stay in private worlds, but they're in public avatar worlds
vocal shard
Same thing with pills model happened
median basalt
Yeah I don't doubt it
tacit plank
Yeah, future proofing does that. You might be safe if you disable it, I can't promise anything though
rigid crescent
Make friends, get invited to things, join on friends, become friends with them. It's all I've done from the start, and the beginning is the only hard part.
north rock
There's not necessarily anything wrong with wanting to go out and hang with your friends. But when, in doing so, you isolate yourself from the rest of the population--the same population of new, lone players from which we all originated, including you-- it feels a little shortsighted and...well, outright selfish, doesn't it? You drink from the river then you turn around and put up your wall, in the words of a certain popular song from the 2000s
median basalt
You're never entirely safe, but disabling future proofing makes it a bit harder on them
ruby burrow
These days I spend the majority of my time in Friends+ sessions. It's basically a pseudo self-curated public.
It's not out of any aversion to public, but simply that trying to visit everyone I'd like to uses all my time in the game.
north rock
It's a pretty inorganic and isolationist means of socializing.
median basalt
Also they do clean up "lewd" avatars, they literally attempted to public ban Yuumi but somehow failed in doing so
As in, they actually didn't succeed and told him "we were gonna public ban you, but it didn't go through, so we aren't"
boreal kelp
In this sea of MMD, anime, etc avatars.. all I want to see are Yakuza avatars
tacit plank
You meet lots of people in friends+. The problem is getting from public into a friends group, if those people never appear in public
rigid crescent
That's not inorganic at all, what...
ruby burrow
Wait, what's "inorganic and isolationist" exactly? I don't want to mix messages. '-'
north rock
Friends+ is basically public except you actually see friend groups there, and you usually have some sliver of connection to them.
tacit plank
I don't mind slightly lewd things
twin iron
Does anyone have a link I can check out for the oculus validation and trust system notes? I can’t seem to locate it on medium
twin iron
Thank you
median basalt
Friends+ is considered public even by the game, apparently
rigid crescent
I make friends, I join on those friends. I join thsoe different friends. some friend groups meld into different groups, some are totally new to me
tacit plank
If you never join publics, new users will never be able to friend you and get to know you
placid umbra
Not sure I follow that one. Sometimes people will go out to a bar IRL and meet people, more often they'll go to a friend's house. It seems reasonable to me that people will want to hang out with their friends.
rigid crescent
Yeah exactly
median basalt
I got demoted to known user thanks to a modded client user and I've definitely noticed being treated worse since, @brisk bone
ruby burrow
Well in practice it pretty much is. I meet dozens of new people in any typical Friends+ session.
tacit plank
More would go to public if they didn't feel "unsafe" though
rigid crescent
The couple times I've seen Aev for example have been in Friends+ instances that I joined on someone else to get to. Typically he's with the same handful of people, but what's wrong with that? why is that bad? He likes those people, those people like him. Sometimes there's new people I haven't seen, sometiems there's not
median basalt
Emailed the mods about my deranking but they said "it's automated and we can't reveal what happened, goodbye"
tacit plank
We can agree on that one Fez
north rock
Again, understandable way of thinking. But what happens to the people who didn't happen to be at the bar that night you met said friends and decided that now that you have somewhere you belong, everyone else is on their own?
queen mango
That is how it is for my experience in VRChat, from beginning to end. New friends joining old friends. That rarely happens in public world instances. Gah, chat moved
rigid crescent
Eventually someone will come along to meet.
boreal kelp
I wonder what would happen if VRChat had a friend/user recommendation system
median basalt
I meet most new people through other friends
tacit plank
Any system would be gamed
median basalt
I do go to publics, but rarely on my own. I generally take friends to public instances
rigid crescent
As I said, there's thousands of people in publics now. Go meet them. Make friends.
placid umbra
They will meet other people at the bar
median basalt
I gotta admit that getting into this game on your own is like a brick wall at first.
And it wasn't like that when I first joined.
tacit plank
Also, different cultures have different standards of "lewd"
ruby burrow
Well I certainly agree that keeping public instances a welcoming place is vital for the game. But it's not like you can blame people just hanging with friends for not fulfilling some duty to visit publics or anything.
north rock
And in my humble opinion, the overwhelming majority of those thousands of other people...are kinda the dregs of the community and are about as likely to want to get to know you as they are likely to be worth getting to know. Which is slim, more often than not.
median basalt
I don't blame the people, I blame the game itself allowing it to happen with these toxic colored nameplates everywhere, to name just one thing
tacit plank
There's public Japanese avatars which have the nipples showing
ruby burrow
Just so long as people aren't being scared out of public due to things like some of the old dumb rumours that went around, people are free to go wherever.
median basalt
And the lack of moderation ingame
boreal kelp
Is Great Pug still decent place to meet people
median basalt
I've seen VR Pill once (I don't think he had mod privileges anymore?), and I saw Ruuubick during a world dev meetup.
queen mango
Not sure anymore, Snow.. Not atleast in my opinion
median basalt
I've played this game for more than a year and I have absolutely never seen a mod tag or an actual moderator
rigid crescent
Most mods don't flex their tag for one
median basalt
Well yeah but a lot of the mods are known by name apparently, still never seen one
north rock
It's one of the places to meet people, even though the only people you'll see talking there will be sat in front of the mirror in the corner with their friend or two shooting the shit while ignoring essentially everyone else who comes over.
rigid crescent
They're hanging out with friends too
ruby burrow
I have wondered what it'd be like to make a new account, and go around solely in publics like the old days.
placid umbra
I hop around public instances often, there's still a large majority of good people.
vocal shard
I played for almost half a year just in publics. I never really was able to make friends that stuck. Every night I'd meet cool people, but then loose contact with them really quick. It was only after I came to the discord and met people here that I made lasting friends in VRC
median basalt
@ruby burrow I tried and it was depressing
rigid crescent
Only because you're used to a certain standard.
vocal shard
I'm not a good at conversation
tacit plank
I saw a nude kid earlier on Twitter. That'd be illegal in America, but apparently it was a picture of some TV show
rigid crescent
If you were jsut starting would it be as bad?
placid umbra
Most of the team isn't looking for the attention that comes with using the staff tag, they just want to spend time hanging out like anyone else.
rigid crescent
Literally I've seen Tupper leave a room over flexing his tag because he hates doing it, he's pretty vocal about not liking it
ruby burrow
One ironic issue I have with publics, is that if I visit one I tend to get bombarded with hasty friend requests. ._.
median basalt
It's not about flexing tags
queen mango
@ruby burrow Pretty mixed. I had interest seeing people converse stuff I don't know of, sometimes I go to a karaoke world public instance and hear people sing their hearts to the songs they like. Other times, I just see people looking over the horizon at some maps. Chat moves fast
north rock
Can't relate at all, Squishy.
median basalt
Going back to the discussion earlier, this game would benefit from active moderation. I don't expect moderators to always be "on duty".
rigid crescent
You don't see them all the time, there was a friend group I hung out with where I did see them all the time. That's a pretty meaningless statement.
median basalt
If all the moderators are in Friends+ then what is the use?
ruby burrow
It might sound weird, but I honestly have enough people in my list. I already feel like I'm neglecting too many people.
rigid crescent
I would assume while moderating they're not in friends+
median basalt
They're off duty and that's fine, but the game still lacks moderation
ruby burrow
I can't go creating new groups.
tacit plank
VRChat could have mods which only moderate, like how chat mods have no other powers in this Discord
rigid crescent
Having a moderator walk around a public with his name tag all big and shiny just makes them a target, why would you even consider that? lol
boreal kelp
I've got small talk somewhat down @vocal shard but I can relate
median basalt
@rigid crescent it works in practically any other social game
rigid crescent
It makes more sense for them to moderate invisibly than it does to jsut pop in liek "HEY GUYS IT'S ME CUBEDPARADOX"
tacit plank
I'll have to get up early tomorrow, laters
median basalt
Apparently they do have invisible mod tools
rigid crescent
Them existing invisibly while moderating makes LEAPS more sense
They do, that's not exactly a secret
median basalt
But again, even invisibly they don't really moderate
tacit plank
Btw, that "invisible mod tools" thing is a bit scary
median basalt
All moderation is passively done via moderation reports and as I recall, you have personal experience how well it works
placid umbra
@median basalt Out of curiosity, which social games?
median basalt
@placid umbra first one that popped into my head was Habbo Hotel 😂
north rock
I have a shitton of people friended, but I still find myself going to public world's almost any chance I get in an effort to meet more people, because that's the most fulfilling part of the experience for me. But holy shit, people can be hard to meet in this game.
tacit plank
Do they join random private instance and spy on private converations for entertainment?
rigid crescent
Just as a heads up you're reaching your meltdown point where you start saying inflammatory and nonsensical things for no reason
tacit plank
I mean, probably not, but the possibility is there.
rigid crescent
right after this you break down, apologize, and pity party. Might be better to just stop there
median basalt
@tacit plank actually, I did hear a rumor about a mod invisibly joining an invite+ instance, and then having a streamer friend of said moderator coming in through them.
median basalt
But going back to habbo hotel, bit of a weird example maybe but I remember moderation being quite tight there. Troublemakers didn't last long
rigid crescent
joins, goes invisible pretending ot leave , then when people talk crap about him he pops back up
median basalt
And the "fear" of having a moderator around means that people were less likely to try anything
ruby burrow
@north rock I meet nearly all my new people via Friends+. It's interesting how you can start to see a sort of branching web over time.
median basalt
Oh yeah lmao, I know who that is
tacit plank
That seems like an issue, conversations with my friends are private, I don't want invisible (not in the nametag sense, but completely hidden) people listening in
median basalt
There's a reason that mode is referred to by his name
north rock
That's the nature of it for most. That's just how friend networking goes in general. It's how I've met most of my friends, certainly.
But I don't really want it to have to be that way.
boreal kelp
While lounging here and listening to INITIAL D music I think I found one reason why having a VR headset would be a good thing for me.. so that people can watch me dance to music into VRChat
rigid crescent
It's easier for everyone except the handful of new people that are in publics, and even THEN it isn't hard
No one is closing anything shut, stop.
tacit plank
A private world of mine once had 2 people in it. I didn't invite anyone. Since then I've put puzzles in
boreal kelp
Similarly, if I did karaoke.. people could see me move while singing
median basalt
Nah to be fair, I have had friend groups that literally said "we're not gonna go to publics anymore"
north rock
It's good that Friends+ gives an almost instant jumping off point and as such is a great venue for making friends, but I would like for it to be a relatively simple affair in public instances, too. But like someone else already said, it's and absolute brick wall at first, and it tends to stay that way any time you're going public.
rigid crescent
I've literally "made it" into multiple friend groups in the last few months. I'm not special. I'm not a streamer, I'm not "famous" or "well known", I literally just talk to people and meet them ingame through other friends.
The only time anyone ingame has "recognized" me in any sense is someone I had blocked saying I Was an asshole on the VRC discord lol
vivid oar
I have over 50 friends added on vrchat of which maybe 3 I regularly talk to. I think that's just sort of the nature of mass online things
tacit plank
I've met big communities by joining friends that I never knew existed before
north rock
Pretty much all of my friends try to go exclusively friends/friends+ as well, that's why I find myself breaking off from them often, even if it means being alone. I feel like public players deserve a better chance than for everyone who's active and invested in the game to just go hide off with their established circles.
vivid oar
those friends I still talk to I met in public
north rock
I have mixed feelings about that one, Fez. On one hand, I feel like you generally do see the dregs of the game's playerbase confined to public worlds, but at the same time, there are people there who simply haven't gotten to meet people yet. They don't deserve to be lumped in with the rest.
placid umbra
That's a pretty broad statement to be making, like I said before the majority of people I talk to in publics are nice.
rigid crescent
What makes them losers dude? Just talk to your friends...
boreal kelp
I asked one of my streamer friends who comes on VRChat ever so often if he's gotten a lot of friend requests in-game. He said yeah, mostly because he answers small talk questions with the intention for a conversation to develop
vivid oar
I don't ever see much of the "dregs" in public lobbies besides great pug
north rock
Pug, Mirror, primarily those two.
tacit plank
Ranks are like 2 levels lower in public on average, but you do find trusted users hanging out in smaller public instances
queen mango
Same here. Especially if you look outside of the Pug and Box. Anywhere else and you have some pretty friendly or quirky people
ruby burrow
Public is just humanity unfiltered. You're going to get all sorts, good and bad. I feel like any new user will understand that just fine.
vivid oar
I like the nightclubs
half the time you can just watch random people dancing in fullbody
north rock
I genuinely do feel like it skews overwhelmingly into the bad or simply unremarkable, though.
gleaming ridge
publics make the game entertaining
boreal kelp
Outside of avatar testing worlds, I feel like mirrors just entice some users' narcissitic tendencies and keeps them away chatting or making new friends
ruby burrow
A friends+ is basically a public where you have personally filtered it by the kinds of people you've been drawn to, and by extension the kinds of people they been drawn to.
north rock
I've met so few "remarkable" people in public worlds since...hell, October, that I'm starting to think I must've changed as a person or something. Because back in early 2018, it felt a lot easier to meet people in public worlds. Met most of my good friends that way
gleaming ridge
my circle of friends always just hang out in publics
rigid crescent
No one does that Fez, stop
I try not to throw this out lightly but I think you're lying to "prove" your point.
vivid oar
gathering at mirrors is just standard procedure
rigid crescent
But oh well
north rock
I actually argue that that's a modestly common sight, Mic
I mean, there's usually at least one or two of those per public instance if its over ~12 people
rigid crescent
So the hundreds of hours in public I've spent it's pure coincidence that I've only seen people blocked "on sight" when they approach the mirror are people doing annoying shit?
placid umbra
Definitely not my experience, but I don't really agree with labeling any group of friends as a"clique"
queen mango
I don't think anyone would mind having another player in the mirror. Sometimes they just like to see how many people can fit in mirrors.
vivid oar
everyone loves the mirrors. go to pug? nobody's at the bar. go to void? nobody on the dance floor. they're all crowded around the mirror in the back
north rock
Not the "blocking mirrors" thing, necessarily, though that's not too uncommon, either
ruby burrow
If some weirdos are blocking anyone that comes near "their" mirror, I can't see the issue. All they're doing is removing themselves from the game for normal people.
north rock
Y'all know what I think? I think our asses should squad up and head for some public worlds, so we can collectively get an eye on these instances we speak of, and see what we can glean from it without fear of bias or fib.
ruby burrow
I really like the new loading avatar. It's simple, maybe even a tiny bit too simple, but it's such a vast improvement over the old large nosed, empty eyed, smooth yet still lumpy blue guy.
rigid crescent
I've spent plenty of time in them, I used to spend every night in Pugs with a friend that just liked to people watch. it's what I did most weeknights. This kind of activity could very well be linked to the person having them
9PM CST til whenever I fell asleep, usually 5AM
ruby burrow
Heh, that does actually sound interesting Atwyxt (your name is hard to type...). Although I need to be getting to bed soon. No VR for me tonight.
north rock
I also think it'd be a very "humbling" experience that might help spread around some humility and empathy here. There are clearly some sparks here being cast between some rather strong opinions.
ruby burrow
Go have the same discussion in a public would be interesting.
queen mango
north rock
Sorry, I'm afraid not
ruby burrow
Eh?
rigid crescent
oh yeah I'll ping a caht mod for ironic rulebreaking
ruby burrow
I do want to go explore some publics whilst the blind girl avatar is still somewhat trending around though.
north rock
That's a little mean but eh
vague hemlock
north rock
Good point though @ruby burrow, I've actually had similar conversations in public instances before, and ironically enough, it got enough attention to attract strangers to join in
Those strangers became friends
Thanks for the impeccable judgment, Elire
You have my thanks
queen mango
No probs.
ruby burrow
Call the casual speech police then I guess.
vague hemlock
rigid crescent
they're not bothering anyone at all and they're not using it ot talk down to anyone so who cares
queen mango
True. It's shallow to call someone out for the way they use their grammar. Just chill out.
tacit plank
Kind of hard to judge and act on
boreal kelp
I sometimes go into a paragraphs or a few sentences over things that could be described into one sentence or point
median basalt
I just realized, mods get to use external emojis 
boreal kelp
and I don't even know if that can be traced back to my Aspergers
tacit plank
With more words you can be more precise in your speech
north rock
I'm really inefficient with my wording a lot of the time, I would rather not be insulted over it D:
vague hemlock
rokk shhh 
rigid crescent
im sure everyone he-oh yeah you beat me to it
im sure we all thought the same thing the second you said that lol
tacit plank
Every word has a meaning, they exist for a reason
median basalt
Lol
@brisk bone Svel got beaned because someone repeatedly said "fuck you" and he pinged the chat mods
rigid crescent
there we go
north rock
Y'know, if I worded what I said anywhere as bluntly as you, it would've come off really insincerely. Saying it the way I did was a necessary precaution to take, if you ask me
rigid crescent
later broseph
median basalt
I gotta admit that moderation in this Discord can be inconsistent
vague hemlock
queen mango
That was the final straw
rigid crescent
badabing
vague hemlock
Yikes from me yeah
north rock
That guy has...a lot of beef.
tacit plank
Discord's ToS is retarded, it's up to servers themselves what's alright and what's not
queen mango
Too much beef, and is pretty pent-up. Kinda big going on someone who had nothing to do with him
gleaming ridge
beef tastes good
tacit plank
If you cook it
boreal kelp
I remember in 2017 when it was okay to lewd lolis on Discord servers.
median basalt
Remember that Discord's safety team still has the pedo furry on their staff who ruled "underage porn of furry characters is not underage porn". They never removed him.
queen mango
vague hemlock
tacit plank
Then it was banned, except if it's furry
queen mango
THe FBI would like to have a word with you, Snow.
tacit plank
Because one of the Discord staff guys is a huge furry
Rokk worded that better than I could
The fun thing is, it's not even illegal in my country
boreal kelp
Nah, the FBI have other things to worry about. I quit anime loli once I turned 18
tacit plank
FBI will only target you if you cause financial damage
queen mango
Oh.. something else I forgot.. #general-media please.
north rock
LOL
tacit plank
No no, it can get much worse
north rock
We've had all kinds of pleasantry in here today, huh?
queen mango
This ain't a comfy topic, so I'd suggest something more child-friendly.
tacit plank
Your profile picture is adorable
tacit plank
That was for Elire
north rock
:(
tacit plank
Well, catfish's too. I already DLed the hd version of that though
queen mango
north rock
sniffle
queen mango
I'm a boy though
boreal kelp
In other news, why haven't people jumped on importing Yakuza characters into VRChat? 0, Kiwami 1 & 2 have PC ports and have been shown to be modded. I'm sure someone could dump the models and textures
north rock
curb your enthusiasm plays
ruby burrow
Too tall to headpat.
ruby burrow
I've been trying to think of a reason/theme to have a tall version of my avatar. But can't really imagine it.
tacit plank
Make a 20 meter version with a seat in the mouth
Or on the head and in the hands, I guess
boreal kelp
Course, an avatar of the underwear guy, Mr. Libido would probably spread like wildfire in VRChat
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/957464248247172307/17C4231C6D5C58844F3BAE8290522E47F4D6E2A4/?imw=1024&imh=576&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=true
tacit plank
That's pretty funny
ruby burrow
Just for fun, I've got some generic Kanna's of all different sizes, from 9cm to 555m. But no regular avatar that matches my actual height.
boreal kelp
He's already a meme character in the Yakuza community
tacit plank
Try the Japanese communities btw, they probably made yakuza avatars
north rock
555 meters?!
At some point your menu functionality breaks from sheer size
was the colossal titan last night
tacit plank
If you're within the box or another huge avatar, you can't use the menu. Otherwise, you still have to click really fast to use it
ruby burrow
Yeah, both the bottom and top end of my Kanna's break the menu and require the keyboard reset. ^ ^;
boreal kelp
How far does a user's mouse have go up with tiny avatars to reach the menu
north rock
Amusingly, the colossal titan avatar loads almost instantly, so I had to use the keyboard reset
tacit plank
Minimum size in the SDK is probably a good minimum value
ruby burrow
The biggest ones can't be used in most worlds, since they instantly either fall off the edge of the world, or get stuck on wall colliders and freeze.
tacit plank
I'm off to get my 6 or so hours of sleep, if I manage to fall asleep in the first place
ruby burrow
Even using it in "The Box" world with the walls turned off, it's almost impossible to stand still enough to prevent falling off the world.
north rock
I think the biggest tragedy is how broken most "flying" avatars are for VR users
boreal kelp
I saw a big Kemono friends avatar in the 'Never Have I Ever' world a few days ago. The user was using VR and proceeded to pantyshot everyone and spread their legs before despawning
ruby burrow
Since moving my head 1cm to the left, means I've travelled a ridiculous distance in game.
north rock
I just wanna be Chinook that airlifts people around big maps, damnit!
Good night, caffeine
ruby burrow
There's one method you could sort of do that Atwyxt, without needing to fly.
north rock
Hmm?
ruby burrow
A friend of mine has a giant invisible avatar, with a Halo Pelican dropship that's set up like a hand puppet.
north rock
Oh, that's clever. I like that.