Hummm.. Anyone have a decent, free water shader? Nothing crazy, nothing complex. Just simple. For something like pool water.
#development-advanced
sterile cipher
warm niche
Curious about this as well^
I've just been using a cloth with a 10,000 polygon flat plane. Probably uses too much CPU for your needs though.
autumn hatch
http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj/3dme/
Just tried with a picture of me, it works frightenly well
We totally need to made a world with a hallways of all the IRL faces of us
prisma pilot
inb4 we'll have everyone using avatars with their real faces
"is that youuu?"
"I dunno"
autumn hatch
Hm, doesn't seem to show the vertex colors in blender when importing
runic mauve
@autumn hatch
final wigeon
@autumn hatch I find .ply handles vertex colours better than obj. If you want it over in blender I'd export it as that.
runic mauve
it work on anime faces lol
final wigeon
To really see how well that software has done look at it without the vertex colours. Good textures can make a bad model look better than it is.
ancient wing
How do you disable VR at launch when starting VRChat? i know there is a parameter to add to a shortcut but i forgot what it is
final wigeon
--no-vr I think
ancient wing
Thanks man!
royal moss
So, what am I supposed to do about this.. Unity says I can't upload .blend file types to the asset store, but I can't extract the meshes from the .blend file, so how am I supposed to get the mesh of the model I want to upload?
final wigeon
@royal moss to get meshes & other stuff out of a blend file open it in blender then do fileโexport and pick your filetype exporter.
royal moss
Hm.. I exported as fbx but now when I apply the meshes inside of it everything disapears
nvm, they were just.. incredibly small
humble marlin
how do you make seats in worlds invisible?
oblique ember
Turn the mesh render off in the inspector.
sterile cipher
either do that, or just remove the cubes from the seat prefab
after you position it
royal moss
So pill said that one of my spawning things wouldn't stop spawning, but I checked and they are all on "alwaysUnbuffered", so I'm not sure what was causing them to spawn?
minor drum
is the process of bringing SFM models too unity hard?
runic mauve
it alot work with SFM
i think mmd and xps much easier to find lol
not that many steps
lucid flax
sfm is a bit easier to work with than mmd tho
minor drum
i ask cause theres a specific model i want
lucid flax
if you have the mdl file it's easy
runic mauve
@lucid flax you need convert the texture as well
lucid flax
CrowbarTool to extract the model -> blender source tools to get it into blender
Then VTFEdit to get the textures
runic mauve
xps and mmd you just put in blender
just fix bones lol
bone easier for me
most the time SFM is a model from xps and Mmd
they just remove the bones
in them add SFM type
runic mauve
i do alot research on different file type
lucid flax
Probably not going to find mmd versions of source game models
minor drum
can you find huntress?
minor drum
would that be simpler than the sfm route?
minor drum
kk
blissful walrus
Hello everyone, i thought this would be a useful feature for world creators! https://vrchat.canny.io/feature-requests/p/allow-world-creators-to-reset-instances
sterile cipher
Awesome idea mimi, upboated
warm niche
Hmmmm
I'm having problems with custom animations lol
the tutorial doesn't help me much with what i want to do
autumn hatch
What problem exactly?
oblique marlin
Seconded, Morgus' video is great
I had no idea what to do but he walks you through the whole process
I still want to thank him but I never see him when he's not AFK in game
@rare seal thanks~
novel seal
Is there a way to enable hand controllers out of VR mode? im doing some experimenting and want to enable Razor hydra controllers without being in VR mode
rare seal
@oblique marlin no problem, @inland salmon deserves the most credit, he taught me with his google doc
oblique marlin
I didn't know there was a Google Doc... :c
autumn hatch
There are a lot of good stuff in #tutorials if you haven't checked yet
novel seal
i dont have one
im trying something using freepie
but cant seem to be able to activate the hydra controllers
novel seal
it does but i cant seem to activate the controller ingame
novel seal
So there is a way to use hand controllers in desktop mode?
novel seal
i did
austere lark
should i be concerned? type is not a supported string value UnityEditor.SerializedProperty:set_stringValue(String) VRCSDK2.<RenderTriggerEventsEditor>c__AnonStorey4:<>m__1(Object) (at Assets/VRCSDK/Dependencies/VRChat/Editor/VRC_TriggerEditor.cs:442) UnityEditor.GenericMenu:CatchMenu(Object, String[], Int32)
hasty bison
if I made a VRChat development enviroment in Unreal, would it be possible to submit my own assets directly to the asset server like Avatars? as long as I follow all the formats / rules?
autumn hatch
If you're asking if you can set things up in unreal and then submit worlds/avatars, no.
The SDK is unity only
hasty bison
I know the SDK only exists for Unity, but is it ok for people to make custom SDKs?
autumn hatch
No, very highly doubt it. If you're trying to find a way to make stuff in unreal for VRchat, you might want to abandon that idea. It's made in unity, you have to use it.
It's like trying to make a CD player play a casette.
novel seal
Exactly. It's because they are totally different game engines
novel seal
I don't think we found an answer to my question
Is there a way to enable hand controllers outside of vr mode?
novel seal
I'm experimenting with emulating be hand controllers but have no VR headset
novel seal
Wiimotes with the motion tracking plus can track rotation movement so they are required for the script but in both VR and non VR mode I can't activate controllers
novel seal
I have multiple scattered around the house but I'm not putting effort into finding them if it's not gonna work
My hope is to create a cheap temp be solution using Google cardboard
VR*
I'm hoping for hand distance tracking the it sensor will help a little
Ir* ffs
warm niche
I know someone who uses Kinect
and it's pretty nice
but you need room for using it
lol
runic mauve
@novel seal @worn cypress. Use kinect and phone vr
novel seal
Don't have a kinect
worn cypress
i'm using VRift RiftCat (about $15usd) paired alongside Driver4VR (another $15usd) i'm also using a Leap Motion Sensor to emulate controllers by tracking your hands (doesn't work all that great) and the KinectOne sensor (which i'm still having some issues setting up calibration due to lack of room scaling) for full body tracking (downside to using both KinectOne and Leap Motion is that they're both USB 3.0, but can't run off the same USB 3.0 Card, so i use 2 cards; KinectOne is a USB 3.0 Bandwidth Hog X'D)
i've been trying to get this bluetooth controller set up for navigation here https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Controller-ELEGIANT-Portable-Wireless/dp/B06Y99D8C9/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1503547563&sr=1-3&keywords=vr+phone+controller
it's kind of a pain to set up, especially trying to know how to map buttons as if it were an HTC Vive controller (I don't have one so i'm not too familiar with how it's mapped XD)
I think i might actually prefer to use a Wii-Mote controller since i have one on hand (WiiMote+Wii Motion Plus built-in) as it might actually track things better, especially since that bluetooth controller i mentioned doesn't have any built in motion tracking sensors (accelerometers, etc.) @novel seal, do you think you might be able to set up a tutorial on what you need to set up the wiimote with Driver4VR in the Full-Body-Tracking Section and maybe under Tutorials?
you can also use a Kinect360, and they're super cheap; you can find them on ebay or elsewhere for around $20 give or take
RiftCat works as a Google Cardboard with your phone
worn cypress
it's bluetooth capable, so yes you can pair it
novel seal
That's what I'm working on
ruby python
๐ฎ
worn cypress
but like Remu said, you need to use FreePie
ruby python
gotta try tomorrow
novel seal
I'm working with a script I found to use wiimotes to emulate Hydra or rift controllers
worn cypress
i agree with that statement completely XD
ruby python
plus i have two phone vr headsets and both got pros and cons
still looking for better headset
worn cypress
if only VR headsets weren't so expensive ๐ฆ
ruby python
for phone or pc?
worn cypress
PC
ruby python
true
worn cypress
otherwise we wouldn't need to use our phones
i can't just throw away $500 freely, and then another $400+ on trackers
ruby python
my situation is too broke for pc vr
school over 36km away so gotta use car which eats fuel because 1.8L, then theres the food i sometimes by for myself because people at school cant do it right and the only income for me is from goverment (90โฌ)
worn cypress
exactly; the cost of living ain't cheap
especially when you don't make a decent enough income
like personally i could try saving up here and there, but that would probably take me many many months..... ain't nobody got time for that X'D
sterile cipher
don't forget about the PC to power VR. You can't buy a headset and expect your 2007 emachines with a pentium 4 to power your headset ๐
VR is very much an expensive niche hobby right now.
worn cypress
Sadly Money and... well, "Power" is key X'D
runic mauve
I use to be hombrew vr in vrchat lol
prisma void
Is there a way to search a scene for a specific component and show what objects have it?
warm niche
Idk why that message was red ๐ฎ
But it's t : followed by the object type, no spaces^
prisma void
Thats object type.
This is a component on the object
That video shows how ๐
I wanted to double check I don't have Skinned Mesh Renderers on any random objects that should just be meshes.
rough flame
I thought I saw someone mention in this channel how to turn mirrors local only so that they don't cause framerate lag? is that a thing?
warm niche
Ahh fair point Owlboy ๐
ivory jacinth
warm niche
Everytime I try to import Unity-Chan this happens ๐ฅ
ruby python
how can i use wii controller on pc?`
ruby python
yes it is
warm niche
but I customize her
humble tree
When you download it from the vrchat website, it should give you the option to import.
warm niche
Development meetup in 1 hour. We will be meeting in Dev Meetup Room. (aka vrpill room renamed)
trim hound
aww i missed it? :(
warm niche
Thanks for all that showed up to the Dev Meetup! Had a huge crowd. We went to a cafe by @digital grove , the "police box" by @granite pilot , @autumn hatch's avatar room, and got a sneak preview of @warm niche 's new art gallery. (sorry if I forgot a room think I got em all)
weary mica
Okay unity user I need help. I have had many issues with the Reflection node, and This is by far the worst. Everything is fixed but the node apperently decided to make the texture on my Drone 144x144 or some shite. The drone is the only one with this problem, the texutres themselves are fine.
maiden crescent
@weary mica it looks like lightmapping issue. Try enabling Generate Lightmap UVs in model import settings.
hollow lotus
Can someone help me out with audio triggers? I'm sure the script should be working, but nothing happens.
warm niche
If you have any rooms for tonight's meetup, please let me know now
pale violet
@hollow lotus what's the problem?
hollow lotus
@pale violet Can I PM you in an hour or so?
pale violet
anytime. i may be asleep soon and also i may not know your specific issue, but i've used some audio triggers and am glad to help if i can.
hollow lotus
All right, then I'll text another time, thanks.
sterile cipher
What is the typical solution used for Unity project version control and backup?
Is just git sufficient? Even with all the binary files?
sterile cipher
I may set up a local solution. I have a large NAS that I might utilize for backup and VC
prisma void
Yeah. That would work well too. I just didnโt wanna manage that Stuff ๐
sterile cipher
On a vaguely related subject: I've been using GitLab due to (for my purposes) unlimited private repos. If I'm going to pay for a service, would you recommend github or gitlab?
prisma void
I have no experience with Gitlab. But I thought github had unlimited private repos too?
With pay.
Hmm
Maybe Iโm confused on the question ๐
Iโm also very much not a git expert. I treat it as a fancy backup service. And itโs saved my butt a few times already. And helped debug issues in the way VRC was doing things in the 5.6 beta.
I do the simplest things with it.
I hope other Git users can chime in. @rough sleet ? @subtle charm ?
sterile cipher
Hm, ok. I think that answers most of my questions. My question regarding Gitlab is generally "GitHub vs Gitlab, go"
prisma void
Ah ok ๐
subtle charm
i've used github and bitbucket
rocky cobalt
do quite like gitlab
wheat bough
A quick question, I am trying to update my avatars. And I have messages like: "Spine hierarchy missig elements"
The issue is that I have to rename by bones?
where is the guide book for all these changes?
It was all go before and I loved VRC SDK because it was pretty much plug and go.
Now I have to re-rig my avatars.............
*crickets
lilac atlas
I know you need to reassign chest bone 1 to chest bone 2 with the 5.6 update
wheat bough
I had a very diferent hierachy that I use for my game, so yeah I just re-rigged the hole thing. Testing now
is there like a "checklist" somewhere? the wikia is pretty bare
ie: a picture of a skeleton with the names etc...
but it's okay I figured it out (probably)
lilac atlas
That is a pretty comprehensive google doc
The only difference I am aware of is using chest bone 2 instead of 1
minor drum
20k im told
did they change it?
the tutorial im following from then is from 7 days ago
oh oops a month and 7 days
so i dont need to delete alot of stuff?
oblique marlin
The hard limit is 20k
The preferred limit is 10k but a lot of people don't abide by that-- under 20k is necessary, though
minor drum
@oblique marlin its tris i need at 19,999 or under right?
oblique marlin
Exactly
When I decimate in Blender, just to be a good citizen, I usually do my best to get as close to 10,000 as possible, but it'll let you import it either way
minor drum
ok
welp, 29.5k to go now, got rid of unneeded objects... now to see how i can even get that much off of just the polygons
oblique marlin
Is this an MMD model?
minor drum
yeah
autumn hatch
Please do merge your meshes aswell. That is more important to optimization than just counting polygons.
oblique marlin
^
autumn hatch
Shameless plug to upvote my post on #feature-requests to enforce a limit on meshes.
oblique marlin
minor drum
managed to bring myself down too 41k total tris, 21k to go
oblique marlin
For the record if you guys want to specifically talk about avatars, you should probably do it in #336764636156264450
I think this channel is more for generalized development
brazen lotus
Does anyone know why this keeps popping up? The avatar I'm trying to upload has been uploaded before but now I can't with the new update. I asked this in the Avatar chat as well but havn't gotten any help yet.
low delta
make sure the joint that is the parent of those two things is plugged into this slot
"chest" @brazen lotus
brazen lotus
@low delta checking that now but it seems to have worked! Thanks!
low delta
๐
brazen lotus
I get it now, the direct parent had to be the chest, and not upperchest
low delta
yeah, i have a dummy chest bone that does nothing, but it works great
https://i.imgur.com/51U90pw.png
(grey one)
brazen lotus
It worked thanks!
oblique marlin
@sterile cipher, @median flare, @autumn hatch, @sudden smelt, @strange fable (sorry if either of the admins are not the right admins to bring into this conversation, I was told to ask you guys)
I want to make a tutorial to cover the topic of reducing material count and mesh combination so that everyone realizes both that they need to do those things and has clear instructions on how to do them.
Misaki Ki brought up that I should also talk about the Unity game stats window, and I think that's a great idea.
I was wondering if you guys had any ideas about what are some acceptable values for the various stats that are available in that window, so that I could quickly run down and mention about where you should aim to be and what's a red flag that you're not optimized to an acceptable degree.
Also @mental narwhal should probably be part of this conversation haha
rough sleet
Show the Rendering Profiler too
In my opinion it presents everything in a clearer way.
oblique marlin
I would love to, that's also something I have a similar question with though: what are acceptable values for the many things in there when you're looking at your avatar in Unity, and what kind of values would be clear red flags something is not okay?
Other than obvious things like tris which have defined limits
I just don't want to spread misinformation about it because this topic is one that seems important, especially as the userbase expands
rough sleet
Ideally we want to keep the number of SetPass/Draw Calls as low as possible.
A single SetPass/Draw call is optimal but isn't practical for a lot of people and avatars.
oblique marlin
Is that achievable with a single mesh and a single material?
median flare
Yes
rough sleet
Yes
One skinned mesh renderer using a single material is the optimal case. Literally nothing is the only thing with a lower performance cost.
Except maybe a single non-skinned mesh renderer but that isn't particularly useful.
oblique marlin
Noted. You say it's not viable for some people/avatars and I assume the reason for this is some people might want to apply different material renderers to different parts, I assume?
rough sleet
It's difficult to combine materials using different shaders.
Especially if one material has transparency.
You need to write a custom shader that combines the different shaders and uses some sort of mask to determine how to shade each part of the mesh.
So not really practical.
oblique marlin
I see what you're saying, but so then would this be sensible advice:
To combine as many of your textures as you know you'll use a single material renderer on into a texture atlas, but if you know you'll want an alternative material renderer on another texture, leave it as a separate material?
rough sleet
One material per shader is reasonable.
The standard shader's Opaque, Cutout, Fade, etc. modes effectively count as separate shaders too.
oblique marlin
Right, so, an example, pulled out of nowhere:
If, say, I have a model which has 10 materials, and I know that on the eyes I want this specific shader, but on everything else I'd like to use toon shaders or whatever, then the optimal thing to do would be to bake every texture that isn't the eyes into the texture atlas and use that for one material, and have the eyes as separate
I just want to make sure I have a full grasp on what you're saying-- if that's the case I'd like to cover leaving certain textures out of the texture atlas for that reason
rough sleet
That sounds right based on my current understanding.
oblique marlin
Okay, great
rough sleet
If you have 9 toon shaded materials then you can combine them into a single atlas and leave the 10th un-atlased.
oblique marlin
Sounds great, that will definitely be a part of the tutorial if whomever else wants to weigh in also agrees that that's the best way to handle it
I just want to make this tutorial because I've heard people talking about texture atlasing for performance but following the currently pinned tutorial was a major headache as a one week beginner to Blender, but it would be nice if everyone knew how to do it ahah
rough sleet
If you're using colour tints in your materials you'll need to tint the Blender material and bake the tint.
oblique marlin
Noted
runic mauve
yea better have somone figure out and make tutiroals just tell people to do. only way going get people to do this lol
rough sleet
Are you going to cover baking all of the texture maps?
Like normal maps and metalness/specular?
runic mauve
no way tell how to do then wont care to do it
oblique marlin
I would love to cover that, though I'd have to learn it first ahah
The extent of my knowledge is what I just learned tonight about unwrapping the UVs of a mesh and baking the textures to an atlas for that single material renderer call
Is there a good technical tutorial that you know of covering doing the same thing with normal maps and specular, so that I can research it myself and write a script for that as well?
Write a script = a script for the tutorial not a script for Unity lmao
oblique marlin
@runic mauve if you can help me locate some models which need that done to them, I'd love to research it and find out more about it so that I can also tutorialize that
I may have some actually, I'll have to look
Just DM me about that
oblique marlin
Noted
mental narwhal
Normal baking and combining is very similar to the color textures. The complicated one is the metalness/specular because of the alpha channel behavior
oblique marlin
Also noted-- literally, I'm trying to gather topics so I can research them all tomorrow/in the coming week and get a good understanding so I can talk about it from a point of knowledge ahah
I feel like with some good editing and writing, even though this can be a complicated topic, even beginners could do it with some explanation about what exactly it is they're supposed to be doing and how it works
rough sleet
Also are you going to do the baking with Cycles or Blender Render/Blender Internal?
oblique marlin
My knowledge of it currently is limited to doing it in Blender, is there a benefit to doing it otherwise?
Also maybe if the normal map baking is similar to the texture baking, I can cover that simultaneously, but maybe save specular for another more advanced tutorial
mental narwhal
I'd say avoid Cycles because that's another level of complexity. Need to keep this as simple as possible.
oblique marlin
Yes, I would love to make it accessible to anyone, otherwise nobody will do it haha
Which seems to be sort of the current situation at least with material combination
ornate pine
I'm willing to do it just so my model doesn't put a damper on anyone's frames
that's why I've been asking so many questions
(Sorry, @oblique marlin ><)
sterile cipher
The problem I'm running into with Blender render is that its not giving me a pixel for pixel same color as the original model
its much darker:
that's when I bake with shadeless
ornate pine
and yet the hair is the same... weird...
sterile cipher
the hair is a seperate material. It is a strange shader.
My model requires 3 materials
oblique marlin
@ornate pine I'm about to go to bed but if you DM me at my next convenience I'll help walk you through what I learned tonight
ornate pine
oh, that explains it. My bad.
mental narwhal
It could be the gamma setting. Linear or sRGB
sterile cipher
I also hope that the existence of such a tutorial doesn't motivate VRC to mandate some super-low material limit >_>
ornate pine
@oblique marlin thank you, since I still don't quite get how to add my UV texture to a material ^^;
sterile cipher
this is not for the average user
oblique marlin
P'ahaha
mental narwhal
@sterile cipher yeah maybe we could make these into Blender scripts at some point
oblique marlin
That would be great
It would also eliminate the need for a tutorial ahah but hopefully it would be of use in the mean time
sterile cipher
maybe, but i feel like those scripts might not be versatile enough-- for example, I want my wings to remain seperate because I put a shader on them, but if the script just mashes everything into one texture atlas, that's no fun
median flare
As always, wouldn't mind seeing a higher polygon limit if you did reduce your materials and meshes to like 1
sterile cipher
i'm actually not really a fan of that
mental narwhal
@rough sleet has been dying to show off his coding skills, and he knows Python, so....
oblique marlin
Hahaha
If you guys do work on a script for it I'd love to help anyway I can, I'm working on my CS Bachelor's so maybe I could be of some kind of use
sterile cipher
a higher polycount limit should be baseline, since it has been long established that polycount (up to 65535) is essentially a non-bottleneck on current VRC performance
oblique marlin
I am not a programming genius though, forewarning
sterile cipher
one skinned mesh renderer is easymode-- but only having one material? i mean, if we're all going to be 65535 tri floating spheres with one material, sure, sounds great ๐
median flare
It's not as hard as you make it sound - it's just new to people. Decimating is much harder, and yet people took to it
oblique marlin
That's why I was saying I think it's important to try and trivialize the process of combining all materials that you know you'll only use one material renderer for as much as possible
sterile cipher
i've been at it for about a week or so now misaki, dealing with various issues-- only now have i gotten it to pop out a usable model, and now the colors are all screwed
so, I get that it isn't herculean (i'm not exactly horrible with computers), but it also isn't really a perfect process
mental narwhal
The Unity Standard material is extremely flexible. I wish people would focus on using that with all its texture inputs than immediately jump to a different and usually less capable shader.
oblique marlin
I didn't understand at all before tonight but through fiddling I got it to work well, it wasn't a difficult process but the existing tutorial wasn't very helpful compared to watching Misaki's video helped me to at least understand the workflow which set me on the right track
sterile cipher
Yes, that video helped quite a bit
median flare
M-my notes!
sterile cipher
the one in #tutorials is a little.. not quite right
oblique marlin
Lmao yeah I was like this couldn't be less helpful
I was also worried it was a Herculean task after watching it but it turned out to be pretty simple as long as you know what to do
sterile cipher
pretty much any task is simple if you know what to do, to be fair :S
oblique marlin
@mental narwhal perhaps that's a topic for another vid that could be covered? How to use the standard material to achieve a lot of different effects instead of jumping to another shader
sterile cipher
can the standard shader do refraction and chromatic abberation?
if I can use it to replace my wing shader, I'd gladly do it-- but even then, it'd still have to be a seperate material
or, yes, TCL
i could write a shader that has a mask
but i have literally zero idea how to do that
oblique marlin
Ahaha
rough sleet
That really isn't a practical solution.
mental narwhal
The question is actually does your refraction shader support all the nuances of unitys PBR rendering? @sterile cipher
sterile cipher
dunno, it doesn't seem to be all that much of an issue in performance in profiler as far as I can tell ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
rough sleet
Does it need to? It's part of a toon shaded avatar.
sterile cipher
its a relatively simple shader
mental narwhal
@rough sleet that's a whole nuther debate. Lol
rough sleet
lol
sterile cipher
I think the baseline is this: If VRC ever puts a hard limit on materials in the future, what's going to be the number?
What would be reasonable?
oblique marlin
Well since I've heard people talking about how different shaders can have highly different performance costs, a base material limit seems like an inefficient solution
sterile cipher
1 is obscene. You can't expect the average Joe to want to do all this. They'll likely give up-- or worse, have their creativity stifled by a relatively arbitrary limit
Sure, they can learn, but unless there's a pushbutton solution, 80% of people are just gonna say "fuck it"
oblique marlin
That being said, I have to go to bed because I have school in the morning ahaha
BUT anyone who wants to weigh in on what are good topics that should be covered in an avatar optimization tutorial I would love to hear it
I will definitely read the conversation through in the morning tomorrow and make notes
mental narwhal
@sterile cipher "creativity challenged by arbitrary limits" fixed that for you. Hehe
mental narwhal
That's my definition of Art, btw
rough sleet
There's line between challenged and stifled, and that line is in a different place and has a different width for each person.
mental narwhal
@oblique marlin good night! Thanks for your efforts!
sterile cipher
exactly. I think of this as kind of an analogue of IT support, right? There's users who will gladly troubleshoot their own PC, or even go so far as to install their own OS and tweak settings for optimal performance
oblique marlin
Yeah! I'm really enjoying VR Chat and I want to help make it better if I can, whatever way that may be
This was just a topic I noticed needed covering. See ya around, fellas
sterile cipher
and then there's people who want to push the button, get results, and be done
neither of them are wrong
I just don't want a crazy low limit on materials, basically
that's all
nor do I want to be effectively shamed/punished for not optimizing every bit of my FBX before I upload ๐
lucid flax
I don't think we need more limits on avatar creation
A large portion of users already have trouble figuring out even basic manipulation of models, or bone structure
Putting more limits only reduces the amount of people who can figure that shit out
mental narwhal
@sterile cipher neither way is wrong, but what I think is wrong is when people push the button and expect the same results as someone who has toiled for weeks (months) to make something unique and cool.
sterile cipher
I don't think anyone expects that
nor do I, considering the time I've spent on my own avatar
rough sleet
The skeleton issues alone are already a significant barrier for the average user.
autumn hatch
Select all > CTRL + J regarding merging meshes I think people should be able to figure out, seeing if they manage to upload avatars then they should have the skillset to do that atleast
rough sleet
I've seen multiple people asking about how to fix the chest/upper chest issue.
autumn hatch
Especially with us probably making some sort of guide for it, should it become mandatory
mental narwhal
@rough sleet you hit the button. Lol.
rough sleet
Someone literally asked about it immediately after someone had just finished explaining it to someone else.
sterile cipher
I agree with both of the above-- I think the difficulty "line" should be drawn a little bit after rigging/mesh merging. And mesh merging is EASY compared to some of the rigging shenanigans you've got to deal with, let alone weight painting
atlasing is a great optimization technique, but basically what I'm arguing is that it should never be required except in extreme cases
rough sleet
We need something like the MeshBaker asset except tailored for VRChat.
sterile cipher
Agreed, that looks promising aside from that one issue
rough sleet
Something that merges materials and tiles their UV spaces.
rough sleet
Of course it does...sigh
sterile cipher
oh wait
hmm
it renders it like how unity does. I just had to swap textures.
Intredasting
rough sleet
lol
mental narwhal
VRChat has kind of opened a can of worms because we allow you to import anything. I mean how many videogames in the real world do you think actually support as many rig configurations and setups as we do?
sterile cipher
very true
in the end can we just agree to blame Unity and have you guys whip up a rendering/networking engine from scratch? cool thanks, beta in a week right?
mental narwhal
Well no one seems to use our template rig which is reasonably painless.
rough sleet
Well, almost nobody rigs their avatars themselves.
sterile cipher
the vast majority of users import models that are already rigged
rough sleet
They're either already rigged, or they auto-rig it.
All of the MMD based avatars are already rigged.
sterile cipher
and usually have quite a bit of "optional" rigging already done, such as skirts, ribbons, hair, etc
rough sleet
My Fuse avatar was generated rigged.
mental narwhal
@rough sleet exactly, so they have an expectation that a model rigged for a completely different system by an unknown person with unknown requirements is an easy drop into Vrchat
rough sleet
Well, they're end users.
sterile cipher
^^^
rough sleet
Their entire existance is defined by the hard parts being done by someone else.
๐
autumn hatch
A "push button recieve bacon" kind of guy
sterile cipher
They might learn how to use the tools, but they may or may not have the "dig into the guts" attitude devs tend to have
autumn hatch
Personally I think they should just head to one of the avatar gallery worlds then
rough sleet
I think part of the issue is that there isn't a comprehensive avatar creator. Morph3D is/was supposed to satisfy this but for now we have non-technical users using technical tools which rarely goes smoothly.
mental narwhal
The other side of this is to just have a system like Morph where you can set some sliders and out comes your model. But there would be a huge outcry of not being able to use your favorite anime character off some arbitrary site right?
rough sleet
That's why we need both systems.
People will self-select based on their willingness to put in the effort.
mental narwhal
I argue that's not true
rough sleet
I should clarify that they might not be happy about it but they will inevitably self-select.
mental narwhal
If the advanced way produces cooler more unique results everyone will want to use it
sterile cipher
@autumn hatch what if they can't find anime girl #0429 that they want to be? They go through the process, spend days figuring out rigging issues, getting help, figuring out how to merge meshes, get to upload, and find out they can only upload if they're under 3 materials. They look up how to combine stuff, and get overwhelmed. I'm just saying that I think that "overwhelmed" line is going to be right after rigging, and a good bit before atlasing.
mental narwhal
Def before weight painting...
sterile cipher
the key here is that this imaginary "overwhelmed" line is, as TCL said, of various positioning and width.
And you can't just dismiss people based on where you or I think that line should sit
rough sleet
Yeah, but most of them won't bother. They might complain but most people won't complain loudly enough to matter.
sterile cipher
that's gonna stifle people that could, potentially, go on to eventually learn how to do all this stuff. It's taken me about 2.5 months to finally get to the point where I'm willing (and able!) to try atlasing and to get as far as I have
rough sleet
You see it in real life all the time with all sorts of stuff. For example some people want to get in shape but its hard so they don't and just complain about it.
sterile cipher
if I'd run into that limit right after my first upload? yeah uh, guys, i'm gonna go play Anyland
Keep in mind that the vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast majority of players come into VRC with literally zero blender/unity knowledge
mental narwhal
Well, how many non VRChat created morph avatars do you see here. I also recommend other systems like Autodesk. But no one uses them.
autumn hatch
Suppose you're right, but a newbie giving their hand at a MMD avatar is more often than not bad news compared to "other" models. It is going to be way harder to fix those pretty much always
warm niche
Hey guys as a lot of you have some serious skills in here wanted to make you aware of a Discord in #353285911322034177 that @austere lark has started called VRC Traders (not affiliated in any way with VRChat). It's a Discord where people can find others and pay them to model etc for them in VRChat.
sterile cipher
"newbie giving their hand at a MMD avatar is more often than not bad news" Zarni, that's 100% personal standpoint and honestly a little bit... uh... what's a few levels below "offensive"? ๐
You can't just dismiss people because of what kinda avatar they wanna wear. That's next level shit man
rough sleet
@mental narwhal To be fair there's an overwhelming majority of video game and anime avatars.
autumn hatch
If I gave out a vibe I'm dismissing people, than I didn't mean to do it
sterile cipher
Oh. unless you're talking about the model's complexity itself. In which case I took it entirely wrong
whoops ๐
rough sleet
Avatars that you'd make in a tool like Morph3D, Fuse, or the Autodesk one are a minority.
sterile cipher
don't discriminate against the anime kids zarni god
Yeah, most people are gonna reach for the popular-in-context-of-VRC (and free) tools right off the bat.
autumn hatch
Just saying that newbies expecting to push button, recieve bacon with MMD models, it's not going to happen. They need to learn at least a few new stuff and it's going to be an uphills battle at the start
sterile cipher
They do! Don't you look at the #336764636156264450 channel?
There's always people learning new stuff in there.
autumn hatch
Not talking about them!
sterile cipher
It gets a bit repetative with the bone parenting issues, but hey-- they're working their way up just like I did 2 months ago
mental narwhal
@rough sleet that's my point. The simplified systems are extremely unpopular. I think it's just you and me. Lol
sterile cipher
and yeah Pill, I saw that discord-- I think I'm at my server limit, so I'm gonna have to find a server to cull before I join it lmao
autumn hatch
And yes, I spent most of my time in #336764636156264450 helping them ๐
warm niche
Just remember that everyone was new at some point in VRChat. A lot of people joining get super excited seeing all these cool custom avatars and are very enthusiastic about making one of their own. We'll have much better documentation soon so they can be directed somewhere easily for this stuff
autumn hatch
It's the sorts of people who refuse to install blender for example I have been talking about.
sterile cipher
Oh. Yeah, in those cases, you just continually respond with "You need to do this in Blender." I don't think those people are who we're talking about.
The discussion originated from us talking about an imaginary future material limit.
autumn hatch
I seriosuly hope you don't think I've been shitting on people actually trying to learn.
sterile cipher
no no, I do not
not at all
I watch the avatars channel probably the most out of any other channel on here. I know you help people a lot
all that being said, I guess just remember not everyone's a years-old VRChat veteran or a grizzled Unity/Blender master, nor do they necessarily want to be-- they just wanna be a cool videogame guy or cute anime girl or something. ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
Although ideally they will stick around to be a veteran ๐
warm niche
I think all of you are extremely helpful! Really happy everyone is helping all these new people out.
mental narwhal
Who you calling grizzled? ๐
mental narwhal
@warm niche while you are here... maybe we should divide these channels into skill level. I think some of the newbie questions get overrun by expert debates and vice versa
sterile cipher
@rough sleet FYI, baking in Cycles mode has its own whole set of issues.
rough sleet
lol
sterile cipher
Agreed.. when pill was typing I was afraid we were about to get chewed out D:
rough sleet
That sounds like a good idea.
autumn hatch
sterile cipher
Oh yeah I upvoted that a while ago
runic mauve
more Tutorials the much easier make vrchat have better performance lol
mental narwhal
Yeah that feature can't get here soon enough
sterile cipher
After seeing you guys use it so effectively in Slack, I definitely would love to see it in Discord
@rough sleet https://i.imgur.com/lDHiGw2.png
autumn hatch
I seriously can't imagine bigger communities doing well without threads, unless you adapt to the twitch chat lifestyle
sterile cipher
That's essentially what huge servers turn into
rough sleet
@sterile cipher That's awesome in a horrifying way.
I think you've found your halloween costume.
sterile cipher
lmao
sterile cipher
"what did you come as?" "A TEXTURE ATLAS"
runic mauve
had hard time find people at that time
mental narwhal
We need a #leave-upper-chest-blank
warm niche
@mental narwhal good idea. Making sub channels now
sterile cipher
holy shit lmao
autumn hatch
lol
median flare
The population sized (over?) doubled and is still growing fairly rapidly
And yes, yes!
warm niche
I'll make two channels:
development - Beginner
development - Advanced
this one will remain advanced one
sterile cipher
๐
mental narwhal
Same with avatars please @warm niche
sterile cipher
@warm niche Actually, suggestion-- make a #worlds channel, and rename this to #advanced-development
autumn hatch
tbh there should be a #faq channel in official with the most common asked questions and answers
sterile cipher
"development" was always pretty ambiguous
mental narwhal
Oh actually @sterile cipher idea is really good
autumn hatch
I like it
mental narwhal
Just leave this for the grizzlies
autumn hatch
need to complain about todays youth
sterile cipher
๐ป
mental narwhal
This can turn into a forum for advanced topics as well as ideas for improving workflow
autumn hatch
I feel #development-beginner should just be renamed #world-making or something to that effect
and just keep the advanced name here
Like questions about triggers, optimisation, light baking and such would fit in #world
warm niche
I prefer to keep it simple. There are many users here who don't have English as their first language
autumn hatch
yeah. Like if I wanted to ask a question about triggers and bake lights in my world. do I ask it in beginners or advanced?
Compared to "I'm making a world. I will ask this in #worlds"
warm niche
@autumn hatch I'm open to suggestions if it's short enough to fit in with beginner and advanced
autumn hatch
"#world-creation" would fit perfect in my view
warm niche
if I name them world-development-advanced and world-development-beginner the advanced and beginner will get cut off on mobile
sterile cipher
ahh
autumn hatch
Skip the beginner-advanced bits with this one though
sterile cipher
Pill, how about this:
#avatars
#worlds
#development-advanced
unless you want to keep worlds and avatars split at both levels.
warm niche
prefer to keep worlds and avatars split
sterile cipher
ahh 10-4
warm niche
as we get bigger there is going to be a much larger divide upon development
actually let's do that
#avatars #worlds & #development-advanced is fine
autumn hatch
avatars-beg
avatars-adv
world-creation
dev-adv
is my suggestion
median flare
I second Zarni's
prisma void
Hmm
warm niche
It hasth been done. We'll try this for a while and see how it goes
In a few weeks I'm open to re-evaluating the naming
mental narwhal
Okay so where were we? @rough sleet are you done with those Blender scripts yet?
rough sleet
lol. I'm stress testing how many instanced triangles Unity can handle
In a scene with only a directional light without shadows, and 4096 ~45K triangle spheres it's able to render 195.0M triangles at ~250-300FPS.
Only 11 draw calls.
mental narwhal
In VR mode though? Singlepass?
rough sleet
No, just the editor.
Let me check in VRChat while in VR.
Also with two instances of Destkop VRChat running in the background.
mental narwhal
Pointing at the same world?
rough sleet
No, different worlds.
I tried the 4096 sphere case in desktop mode and it ran under 31 FPS.
mental narwhal
No object sync right?
rough sleet
Just non-static meshes floating in an empty world.
Dialed it back to 512 spheres and it hits 90-91 FPS in desktop.
mental narwhal
Did it generate the same # of draw calls? Sounds like instancing isn't happening
rough sleet
512 spheres is 24.4M triangles in 2 instance batches according to the profiler.
5 Draw calls
Trying 1024 now.
mental narwhal
Is SS set to 1?
mental narwhal
Let's take this to Pm. I think people may be interested in the results but not the process ๐ฌ
rough sleet
Sure.
warm niche
Anyone could help me with this? I made an effect i want to put on a death animation
but the effect doesn't play after i recorded it on first frame
neither do sounds
lucid flax
MY PEOPLE
..anyway is the particle set up to play when it is enabled?
also sounds and effects won't play if you don't click the play button in the editor
if you're just using the animation play button it will just modify the muscles
lucid flax
so the effects still dont show up when you click the play button?
warm niche
nope
it's weird
And I fixed the sounds
i forgot to copy them to the original model
lucid flax
I'd check to see that the particles have play on awake on, and that they have bursts set up
sterile cipher
@rough sleet So I successfully atlased something reasonable, the color difference is just gonna have to be something I live with. But despite only having 3 materials, 1 mesh (of course), and using standard shaders, profiler shows me having 23 draw calls.
rough sleet
What does it do when you toggle the avatar off?
Make sure the directional light doesn't have shadows enabled.
sterile cipher
Oh, that must be it.
Yep, down to 3 draw calls with standard shaders
๐
Let's test this refraction shader..
Still just 3. Neat
So also I think I figured out what the blender shader is doing. The first texture is just a "highlight" of sorts, just a diffuse map. It honestly doesn't look all that different when I turn it off. The second texture isn't UV mapped-- it uses vector normals to project UVs onto the texture, and colors according to that, hence the neat "highlight" effect. I think I can recreate it relatively easily in Amplify/ShaderForge. I'm just concerned about handling shadows/lighting correctly.
If I can find a way to do it with the Unity Standard shader, I'll gladly do it, but I don't get many results for "unity normal projection texture" or something like that
@rough sleet thoughts on that? If you're around @placid current you wanna chime in on this weird vertex normal coordinate shader?
rough sleet
If you output it to the diffuse output in Amplify it'll get lit normally. However that effect seems like it's trying to simulate a specular highlight.
sterile cipher
Yeah, sorta. And god dammit I forgot to fix the weirdass eyebrow spike UV maps
rough sleet
From the gif you showed me it looks like it highlights when the normal is pointing towards the camera
rough sleet
Ah.
sterile cipher
It almost looks like a spheremap, but they painted over it?
rough sleet
Scroll down to Flat
@sterile cipher It projects that texture onto the surface of the model as if it was a flat plane in front of the camera
sterile cipher
Hmmm.. gotcha
I'm trying to replicate it in shaderforge at the moment
not quite sure how to go about it :S
sterile cipher
I've asked the people that hang out in the Unity Discord shader channel, we'll see if I get anything back from that. Someone took a look, understands the effect, but doesn't know how to replicate it
Welp no dice for the moment but they know about VRChat in there apparently ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
sudden smelt
I can't remember where I found this but it might be useful to some people
sterile cipher
Neat
I'd like to see a more in-depth diagram in this style for various common types of shaders
sudden smelt
While looking into that I found this, although it doesn't have cool diagrams it does tell you in detail how to profile shaders (and materials and meshes i guess) on page 141 http://books.tarsoit.com/Unity 5.x Shaders and Effects Cookbook.pdf
rough sleet
All non-multipass shaders basically have the same process when you look at them at that level.
You'd need to take a look inside the vertex and pixel shaders to see the interesting bits.
rough sleet
@sudden smelt Reverse image search found the source of that image. https://mobile.twitter.com/davechenell/status/875492437052989440
warm niche
Anyone know how to do this? Remember someone mentioning a way to launch directly into VRChat, but how to launch directly into a private world? https://docs.vrchat.com/v1.0/discuss/59cabfd9e13789001cd5c895
You can just use a web link with an ID or the modified steam shortcut that effectively sets a different world as your hub ๐
@warm niche does that work for private worlds though? Could you give an example so I can test?
It does, let me shoot over one of mine for ya!
sudden smelt
just replied with all the options
harsh bay
cheers guys! don't know what happened, but the website is very slow and bugs out for me atm, i'll check it tomorrow ^^
sterile cipher
I'm gonna have to read this book euan. Looks good
warm niche
I am trying to set up a Cascading Timer based trigger system, anyone have anything setup like this... Interaction happens.... Certain amount of time happens..... then triggers initiate (or a few actions).... and it should be able to be reset. I havnt used the timer system, anythin gI should look out for?
quaint wedge
Any experienced programmers willing to help me with the logic behind world/terrain generation algorithms or can point me in a good resource?
marble root
@quaint wedge you looking for something like World Machine? The free version limits your resolution output to something like 512x512, but if you're not looking to make a large landscape it might be good enough for what you're looking for.
quaint wedge
i am :l but its probly good enough to test to see if somthing like that would work , Idealy it would happen in game when a player enters a new chunk
if i can understand teh logic of how a algorithum like that works i could make my own but ya :l
marble root
the basic logic is real easy to understand, i kind of see it like 3D photoshop in a sense. Displace the flat plane with an Advanced Perlin Node (modify the values as you need), plug that into an Erosion node to then naturally erode your displacement (the volume of the terrain will actually move itself downwards, outwards like real erosion), plug it into whatever else if you want, export, you're done. You can use Layout Generators which essentially act like masks if you want to start to control stuff more, for example, erode only a certain area of your terrain. The basics are real easy
then you can plug that logic into different outputs if you want to export a static mesh out of it instead of a heightmap, diffuse textures, etc.
quaint wedge
hmm, have to say havent had much experience with creating/drawing objects in C/C#/C++, the little that i have used it has always been backend so new teritory is always fun :]
you ever made one yourself?
but thank you for the advice :]
marble root
well, i know nothing about programming but plugging nodes into other nodes through a visual interface is a lot more my thing. This is what you see if you start a new World Machine terrain, only three nodes, passing information from one to another. And when you click on the nodes you get to modify values and that's all you got to do to get going.
sterile cipher
Yuuki if you're intending to make procedurally generated terrain in VRChat, that isn't going to work right now without scripting. You'll have to wait for scripting to release-- and even then, it'll be relatively complex.
marble root
oh i see, procedurally generated while in game is a different thing, i guess i missed that
but, if you or anyone else wants to do procedural stuff before hand and then export, World Machine would definitely be my recommendation
royal moss
I have a procedural generation algorithm for biomes, I need a new data structure and my old libraries won't import and no one on the unity forums responds EVER, but it still works with any array as long as it's indexable. You give it a list of biome classes and then tell it what area to generate. Example of biome map: (You can change the general spread size and smear effect as well) https://i.imgur.com/Pdgeg8a.png
sterile cipher
@rough sleet
tl;dr: As long as the meshes are the same material, it batches them
so in other words, material count is the most important thing. which we kinda already knew, but still useful. Mesh count reduction is actually secondary to reducing the number of materials used.
So, optimization priority IMO:
- Reduce the number of materials used to an absolute minimum
1a) Try to use shaders that only utilize one pass - Merge all meshes into one
- Limit the number of dynamic bones/colliders you use as much as possible (set refresh to 60, as well)
large void - Keep polycount low
sterile cipher
if I'm interpreting that correctly, you've got 29+ skinned mesh renderers, and you're at 74 draw calls in the first one. In the second, you have one mesh renderer, and still have74 calls
sterile cipher
Can you SS the number of material slots you have in the merged one?
in the skinned mesh renderer component
oblique marlin
There are 22, nothing has been combined yet because I was planning on fixing this model as my tutorial
I can go forwards with my texture atlasing tutorial anyway and see what kind of draw call count I end up with
sterile cipher
Interesting
oblique marlin
Also yes I turned the shadows off lmao
Before they were off I had 238 draw calls
sterile cipher
Try changing the shaders for all those mats to standard
oblique marlin
43 draw calls
The amount of reported tris also decreased by 10K for some reason
Note that 3 of them are the cube, skybox and that other random thing, so there's 40
Which is how many meshes there are not taking into account that they're combined
oblique marlin
Clearly
sterile cipher
It appears to use two draw calls. Then again, cubed's uses 3
oblique marlin
It's interesting to me that there are exactly 40 draw calls
If I deleted one piece of mesh and reimported it, still combined, I wonder if it would become 39?
Yes lmao
Does merging meshes in Blender even effect draw calls?
sterile cipher
It does if the meshes have different materials?
Maybe?
Important note: Multi-pass Shaders break batching.
so TSF/Cubed's shaders will break batching, and VR used to break batching, but now we use single-pass stereo, so.
oblique marlin
I'm not missing something am I?
Am I just stupid and didn't realize when people were joining their meshes they weren't talking about ctrl-J?
Is there another step
warm niche
Uhhh
how do I make a sonund delay on the animation tab?
I have been trying stuff but nothing
oblique marlin
You could add a delay to the beginning of the sound you're using with an audio editor ahah
warm niche
Well
oblique marlin
I think you could delay the sound by placing the sound activation later in the animation
warm niche
I did
warm niche
and it just doesn't plays a t all
oblique marlin
That would be my ghetto work around
sterile cipher
Nah @oblique marlin , joining meshes is literally "hit ctrl-J"
oblique marlin
@sterile cipher this answer seems to imply to me that combining meshes of different material and texture will not reduce draw call at all, only combining meshes of the same material and texture, or merging them via an atlas
@warm niche what about the timing at the top of the animation, it looks like right now it's playing at round about 23 seconds or something right
warm niche
yes
oblique marlin
So just add a 23 second pause at the beginning of the sound I guess
sterile cipher
Yeah. I agree, Life-- it looks like, once again, the tl;dr is to reduce material count
oblique marlin
If that's the case I've been misinforming people about joining their meshes for awhile lmao
Though I think as a general rule it's still good because some of them may naturally share materials
sterile cipher
Joining meshes should be default regardless.
It probably reduces calls sometimes and it is near zero effort.
oblique marlin
Agree
maiden crescent
"Unity optimizes animation using visibility culling and bounding volume updates and these optimizations are only activated if you use oneย Animation componentย and one skinned Mesh Renderer in conjunction."
sterile cipher
Ah, there we go.
maiden crescent
No one said that one skinned Mesh Renderer will reduce draw call count :)
This is different optimization
oblique marlin
What DOES combining meshes effect if not the draw call count?
An unsarcastic and maybe stupid question-- I'm genuinely asking
maiden crescent
Probably cpu usage for skinning
oblique marlin
Do you think the CPU profiler in Unity would reflect that difference?
maiden crescent
Not sure because Gpu Skinning enabled in vrchat
oblique marlin
@mental narwhal
Let's just ask lmao
I'm gonna just move forward with my tutorial and consider combining meshes to be part of this process for right now instead of pretending I understand why we do it, the focus is on texture atlasing anyway
rough sleet
@oblique marlin As far as I know there is a cost to do the skinning above the actual cost to draw the mesh. Multiple skinned mesh renderers can increase the skinning costs but I haven't been able to figure out how significant it is. @sterile cipher
Unity dynamically batches small meshes (a few hundred vertices max if I recall correctly) but I'm not sure if that is done for skinned meshes.
Combining the mesh should in theory reduce skinning costs but I don't know by how much.
The frame debugger will let you see what each draw call is doing and will sometimes explain why a call wasn't batched.
warm niche
@oblique marlin @sterile cipher by the way it wasn't 23 secs it was 0.23 secs
XD
but i got it done
thanks for the help
โค
sterile cipher
Combining the mesh sounds like a generally good idea, mostly due to the culling optimization when you've only got one skinned mesh renderer.
I think we should still suggest it as an easy way to optimize your avatar. However, combining materials and atlasing is still the best way to reduce draw calls.
rough sleet
Dynamic batching is limited to 900 vertex attributes so the vertex limit depends on the shader. Also dynamic batching is done on the CPU so it is still better to avoid it, especially since it's so easy to merge meshes.
Also skinned mesh renderers are not batched.
valid hemlock
tried using 3dsbs shader and it came up white in my world when i used a vid
and now im trying youtube.com urls
harsh bay
So for a quick and dirty jaw flap blendshape, what is the naming convention for that blendshape? tried vrc.JawBlendShape or something like that, but figured i would save time asking if anyone know about this ๐
sterile cipher
Whatever is assigned to Jaw in the Unity rig configuration.
rough sleet
You might need to make the blendshape open wider. I used to use the jaw flap blendshape and it was a really subtle movement.
sterile cipher
yeah, that. The blendshape very rarely gets turned to 100 by the speaking animator.
harsh bay
ah interesting, i'll give that a try thanks !
runic mauve
i just stay with Viseme jaw flaps some time dont work right
harsh bay
ah alright
oblique ember
Hey guys, I am wondering what layers vrc uses , like a list of them. Any ideas where I can find them?
slim apex
If you select build control panel there should be a button asking you to set up layers. If you click it it will set up all vrc layers for you.
oblique ember
Omg you're amazing!
sterile cipher
Jesus, dynamic bones are heavy on CPU. Like, really heavy. This is on a model with relatively few: https://i.imgur.com/u9MyIhp.png
I'm starting to think that Dynamic Bones are the main issue BY FAR with performance in heavily populated instances.
And this was with 60 update rate!
warm niche
Dann. Should we use cloth instead? My model that'll be working on has a nice long dress id want physics for
sterile cipher
Cloth has its own problems-- one of which is that it is not even remotely as easy to set up.
sterile cipher
It also hits CPU likely just as hard.
warm niche
Holy shit imgue sucks now
sterile cipher
yeah something's going on with imgur.
warm niche
Imgur
sterile cipher
basically my CPU outruns the GPU when I don't have any dynbones
but as soon as I turn them on? blam, fucked
warm niche
Made it into a bs media platform instead of a simple image site
Alright, thanks for the heads up
sterile cipher
Yeah. Avoid dynbones if possible, and if you use them, minimize them.
warm niche
Ill start working on the model tomorrow, get it imported and translated
final wigeon
@sterile cipher I wonder how it'd do with a really low update rate. Like 15-30 or so.
oblique marlin
Aw man but I love dynamic bones
Don't tell me that
@final wigeon that's a question I'd like to know the answer to
It'd be nice if there was a lite solution to doing the same thing it does but I imagine any physics simulation is going to be CPU heavy
final wigeon
Yeah, since even when my framerate has gone as low as 30 or so, while my movement often borders on painful, sitting still and watching other people move still seems okay.
oblique marlin
I wonder if anyone could potentialy come up with a GPU-based physics solution
Not that I know anything about how that works but I know they exist
final wigeon
I think the current issue with gpu physics is that implementation is kinda fragmented. There's nvidia's stuff, and do AMD even have something comparable?
oblique marlin
I saw some implementations of GPU physics someone whipped up in Unity but again don't ask me anything about how that works
I was just thinking that since it's always the CPU that caps in VR Chat, that might offset some load
rough sleet
@sterile cipher Yeah, they're extremely expensive. We might find that once Patch 1 is out and they get culled when they're out of view that performance isn't so bad.
oblique marlin
That's not a bad solution either
Rather I should say that's a much more sensible solution lmao
rough sleet
There is a GPU based asset available but it's a lot more expensive than Dynamic Bone.
oblique marlin
Interesting
rough sleet
It does general soft-body simulation
final wigeon
If possible and if it'd help, a client-side option to cap dynamic bone at a low update rate would also be nice. Especially for users with less capable CPUs.
runic mauve
why not have setting that disable it setting menu
or force set to lower fps
with that client side setting
median flare
The performance with it is actually one of the reasons I don't use dynamic bone, save for one or two avatars. With the plans for a patch dealing with it, I'm not too worried about others using it at the moment save for people who abuse it (usually unknowingly though)
A menu option to disable it locally is one of the ideas I thought of and honestly want - it'll help so much for the larger crowds when the population of a room is extremely high
harsh bay
For now, maybe just keep a duplicate of our characters that we use for events and such.
quaint vale
Good idea Carl, im using dynamic bones and want too add more effet to see whats can i do, i didnt thinks a can make 2nd avatar "simple" without any of this shit
mental narwhal
It's possible to replicate Dynamic Bone using Unity Physics joints. It's quite a bit more complicated, but free, and runs on GPU. I've been experimenting with it a bit.
autumn hatch
Do share if you figure out a nice way to set it up
prisma pilot
I've heard that maybe using the cloth thing that Unity uses, and being able to manipulate how it works or how intense it is, it could replicate Dynamic Bones
mental narwhal
Will do @autumn hatch maybe even a setup script!
autumn hatch
๐
median flare
Yes
runic mauve
you would need make script simple if to hard no one what want to do it lol
sterile cipher
Interesting. @mental narwhal where might I find documentation on physics joints specifically related to characters? I'm seeing stuff for ragdolls, but I'm unsure if that'd work in this case.
mental narwhal
@sterile cipher not much other than the unity docs.
quaint vale
Cloth use a lot of ressource no ?
runic mauve
clothes does same thing to cpu
mental narwhal
All unity physics joints and Colliders are whitelisted for use on avatars btw
sterile cipher
I'm just concerned about using colliders due to the effects of accidentally walking into your own collider (and flying off into the sky)
mental narwhal
Cloth is only expensive when you use it on a high density mesh or have a ton of Colliders
median flare
Set them to triggers
runic mauve
@sterile cipher oh i hear they fix that
no more flying with collider
in next update
warm niche
Aw, I loved the name. "Bootstrap trick"
sterile cipher
Mainly I'm concerned about being able to physics joint bones that already exist in the model... hm
it looks like a hinge joint is what i'm looking for
or maybe a character joint? they seem to.. be similar? but Character joint docs say they're mostly for ragdolls. ๐ค
median flare
I've used them before, ages and ages ago
When I first joined VRChat - I based it off this old guide https://laboratoriesx86.wordpress.com/2014/07/27/joint-based-hair-cloth-physics-for-unity/
sterile cipher
I imagine you just skip the parts including scripting. ๐
and the layer shenanigans
mental narwhal
Physics joints on bones that participate in IK will result in wackiness
sterile cipher
makes sense. What about bones that are children of IK bones? i imagine that won't be an issue
mental narwhal
Nope shouldn't be an issue
sterile cipher
gotcha. this looks like something fun to play around with. thanks for bringing it up, hack
maiden crescent
no more flying with collider
Really??!!!
maiden crescent
extremely disappointed if true...
runic mauve
well they want use collider for somthing else it hard to do that if person fly away lol
maiden crescent
There is avatars that relies on collider jump mechanics. Such as UFO, flying boards and others.
And some worlds easier to explore too. Or recover from stuck state without respawning
autumn hatch
Imagine being able to create proper 3D platforming worlds ๐ป
sterile cipher
From what I understand, you can still put colliders on avatars. I have not read anything that indicates that the "collider flinging" behavior has been changed
I'd wanna see a yellow or red name say it first before I believe it
sterile cipher
frrrrom? ๐
runic mauve
just ask snail @sterile cipher
sterile cipher
snail isn't a dev, jaz
runic mauve
yea but was told in hub one day lol
sterile cipher
you gotta learn to listen to the correct sources, lmao
you can't just repeat hearsay randomly
runic mauve
well i know some people didnt want to keep because there room were easy bypass
with them
maiden crescent
What do you mean by bypass?
runic mauve
go behind somthing no one really want go in world like pug
if you stick coillder in your chest area and push your self in wall you can bypass that door
maiden crescent
Proper colliders or teleport triggers always can stop flying avatars. This is not the reason to disable this
runic mauve
to many of them break room to
maybe reason was disable as well
there limit on how many trigger actally till dont break a world
to many trigger will lag it as well
i been in room with so many trigger it just crash it
mental narwhal
@lucid flax stutter stepping is on track to be removed
lucid flax
Darn D:
runic mauve
we need double jump script for worlds
autumn hatch
I was literally writing a canny post for its removal
mental narwhal
Yup we should see flying, swimming and my fave roller-skating in the future
autumn hatch
I hope there will be options to toggle each of those on-off for each world, or having items you can equip to temporary enable, like flying, for X units of time or until switching world
mental narwhal
Yeah I'd imagine they are world-specific locomotion options
runic mauve
yea that be cool
runic mauve
this demo had alot cool feature for locomotion http://store.steampowered.com/app/584170/Freedom_Locomotion_VR/
instead use controller you move with your hand or walk in place
forest osprey
I wonder, would a possible way to fix the sunken VR view on some avatars be if there was a way we could add like an extra bone, or little dot [like the one that determines where the player camera is] that can be set to determine where the bottom of it is at?
runic mauve
@forest osprey i think hackspanner say he fix the avatar description
best way for now just get in middle between and adjust to your arm in right and can see your chest in vr
forest osprey
What you mean?
runic mauve
if you see your hand shurking
it camera to close front face
or you talk about in worlds
@forest osprey this what im talk about
forest osprey
I was talking about how sometimes your VR pov sinks into the ground with some avatars
forest osprey
It works fine when standing still, or in desktop
but in vr mode, my pov is noticably sunk, and when I move with touchpad, it moves like it's crouching
runic mauve
t-pose controller will keep your body in right postion and check deceription if it move
oooh
because your leg to short
why does that
forest osprey
but that's what confused me, cause my little hyena avatars are rather short too
but they're fine
forest osprey
Could the position of the hip bone effect it?
forest osprey
Lion
I did make some adjustments to shorten the hip bone upward, just haven't gotten around to testing it proper
runic mauve
i would make it same size what you did with other model
runic mauve
maybe leg to far apart have problem moving
them leg on hyenas more human then the legs on your lion
one
i think it big space what effect and the hip far down the legs
forest osprey
ya I was wondering if the hips was doin it, that's why I shortened it. I guess I just need to import it and give it a try
exotic tree
Hey, does anyone know how to make objects like swords, guns, etc that are enabled by custom hand gesture animations permanent after doing the gesture? Every time I move, the objects are automatically disabled. I've been told this is a quirk of how the vive's controllers work, and occulus touch users dont have this issue. Is there some way to work around this? I was thinking if i could have the animation trigger another animation on an intermediate object which would handle enabling/disabling the actual object, I could get around this problem. But animations only support doing transformations and disabling/enabling objects. Is there a way to have a default animation on an object so that the moment it is enabled the animation plays?
runic mauve
@exotic tree only rift controller can do that
they would need update the vive tracking pading code to let do that
you will have to sit in chair with animation press in vrchat then enable but it break your animation tell you swap avatar
warm niche
failure to upload anything all day, extremely slow upload speeds
going to run network diag, but man, im getting slow up/down and this exception error
"Exception while posting the result object"
forest osprey
Sadly altering the hips had no luck on fixing my issue @runic mauve
mental narwhal
@forest osprey make sure you try your avatars with latest beta. There have been fixes in this area.
forest osprey
I'll give it a go!
forest osprey
For some reason the beta build still has older test uploads of the avatar I'm having trouble with
which aren't very useful to me for testing because those didn't have the ik stuff in em
warm niche
Anyone mind explaining me how to setup dynamic bones colliders correctly?
I'm trying to make that doesn't go through her body
sterile cipher
Just FYI, setting your Hips as a Dynamic Bone root has a lot of weird side effects.
warm niche
Oh
Wel
that's fixable
Still i want to know what can I do about the colliders
; (
rough sleet
You need to add each collider to the Dynamic Bone script's colliders list. Also you may need to oversize the colliders and/or fix the positioning of the bone relative to the mesh. It is the bone itself that will collide with the colliders so if the mesh is large relative to the collider or the bone isn't centered inside the mesh then mesh won't collide properly.
warm niche
I don't want the "skirt" to go through her legs
rough sleet
Also to fix the hip issue Tupper mention you should create a new parent bone for the skirt rather than use multiple separate Dynamic Bone scripts.
warm niche
I am on it
rough sleet
Have you added the colliders to the Dynamic Bone's colliders list?
warm niche
I had to reset the model
because of bone parenting
@rough sleet where do i need to put the bone colliders?
rough sleet
In the dynamic bone script there is a field called colliders, set the number to the number of colliders and drag the collider objects into the slots that get added.
warm niche
I mean as where do i set a bone as bone collider
and about the range
i'm not really sure
how it works
rough sleet
You don't set a bone as a collider. You need to add an empty game object as a child of the bone and add a dynamic bone collider component to it.
warm niche
Oh
rough sleet
Then add that game object to the Dynamic Bone script's colliders list.
rough sleet
Yes.
rough sleet
The colliders render as two spheres but they're actually capsules.
sterile cipher
You can place the collider component directly on the bone, for future reference
rough sleet
Oh? That's a bit cleaner.
warm niche
TCL told me not to lol
sterile cipher
๐คท
rough sleet
Lol, it's news to me.
sterile cipher
Either works. I just try to avoid extra gameobjects sitting in my armature. It doesn't really matter.