[REQUEST] Lyra chat channel

[stable tartan]

Turn live coding back on and it will disable hot reload.

That's a massive upgrade to your workflow.

[surreal adder]

why would you ever turn on Hot Reload? That the opposite of any advice you will get on this server

[ripe comet]

Reload is Hot, Hot, Hot!

[rancid gazelle]

I normally wouldnt turn off live coding. I was just curious as to why a normal hot reload would cause an error, it should still compile correctly. I was just afraid there was an underlying issue. I still definitely use live coding, though.

[idle prawn]

I got talked into using Live Coding again (usually I don't use any of that). Took 4 re-compiles for the game to start having random bugs until I restarted.
Turned off Live Coding again ):

[lone python]

Live Coding has bugs if/when you add/remove C++ functions or default object constructors.

If all you do is modify C++ functions without changing any actual C++ object structure, it works great.

If you use Live Coding at the wrong time though, for example after modifying a Default Object constructor, or after adding/removing functions from C++ headers, it can corrupt your compiled blueprints.

The best solution then is a full project clean and recompile, which is time consuming.

When in doubt, just close editor, do a compile, and relaunch editor.

[idle prawn]

I personally just won't use it

Our work computers are strong enough to recompile and open projects in a few seconds

[lone python]

Only if you're sure you only modified a function, Live Coding should work ok without corruption.

[idle prawn]

Only sucks if the client's project is optimized like garbage

Yeah it suffers from similar problems as HotReload did

Still a lot more stable I guess

[lone python]

I typically leave Live Coding active, but most of the time I close the editor to compile in Rider.

The only time I use Live Coding is when I KNOW I didn't change any C++ structure.

It's good for quick iterations on minor bugs, but not on creating new systems/objects/etc.

[idle prawn]

Yeah 100%. If you just change some value in some implementation, cause you notice it was too low or something like that, but that's where Hot Reload also worked ):

[rancid gazelle]

You guys have definitely shared some good information on live coding. Thank you :)

[balmy solstice]

Yes, big plus on the request for a lyra channel. There's a substantial amount of meat, and undocumented features in Lyra, not to mention its posed as "the proper" way to do things. Imho the unreal community has always struggled with how to professionally structure game projects (50 ways to skin a cat) and now we have it ... lots of room for discussion.

[idle prawn]

The community had Shooter Game before for UE4 though :P

That was supposed to be the previous proper way.

[balmy solstice]

There is no spoon. There is no proper way, but Im liking lyra because it A) serves as an example, and has a lot of great tricks in it. B) Im coming around to the idea that lyra is less of an example, and more of a content/system framework. People are already making plugins, and in theory theyll be much more interopable.

[lone python]

I think one of the issues with Lyra is that it has a very specific way it wants things to be done, which is often totally incompatible with the way things were done in UE4 or in scenarios when only one or two of Lyra's plugins were used.

The number of times all of these plugins has been connected together to work together?

Lyra is the first public example of it.

So it's good for new people learning how stuff should be done.

(yes there are bugs)

It's probably pretty frustrating for veterans of UE4 who have their own way of doing things that is incompatible with Lyra's setup.

Personally the more I work with it the more I keep finding deep Lyra C++ code things that need to be modified to work correctly, or to work as a base class for an extension, and the more changes I have to make along those lines the more work it's going to be long term to merge in Epic's eventual changes, if they actually make any.

I'd really rather be able to submit my bug fixes and foundation extension improvements directly to Lyra.

That IMO is the biggest problem with the project so far -- the complete inability for anyone to contribute to it.

[rigid sapphire]

yup, although a dev did say they hope to make it public... but its a legal issue at the moment.

[lone python]

It has been months now, it seems the likelihood of it actually going public decreases as time goes on. 🙂

Who knows. I hope for the best. 🙂

[rigid sapphire]

The dev also implied there are going to be some significant changes in 5.1. So there is hope, personally I have been waiting for those 5.1 changes before I make any major changes.

I totally agree though that unless they release the code public its going to be a huge pain in the ass to merge future updates back in to a project once its started.

[lone python]

I definitely haven't made major changes. They're bug fixes and data visibility oversights only at this point, but there are more and more of them. 🙂

[rigid sapphire]

I mean even with all of that pain. Having lyra as a starting point is a huge time savings

Its always rough though learning a "complete" new system (lyra) from the ground up without any access to those who wrote it. I also totally get the urge to want to say screw it and just write your own thing.. but the reality of writing your own "lyra" equivalent is a lot of man hours.. especially if you are not familiar with all of the unreal systems involved.

[lone python]

Totally agree, building a new system with no backwards-compatibility requirements and/or newly learning UE5, Lyra is absolutely the place to start.

[idle prawn]

I would rather see those generic plugins to simply be part of UE5 and not require Lyra. It shouldn't be a requirement to use Lyra to utilize all those systems. Lyra just shows how much extra work is needed for some of the Engine code to work well (GAS for example).

I would never base my projects on Lyra's code, if at all I would cherry pick useful things from it (Which we do internally by cutting out Lyra code, changing and fixing it and placing it into our own plugin).

All the boiler plate code should just move into the Engine and Lyra should then remain an example of a fully released project.

Like you look at the input system or GAS and you gotta ask yourself: Why is all this extra code not part of the engine by default? Why do I need to look at Lyra to learn about generic boilerplate code.
And the stuff that is not generic is Lyra specific anyway.

Here is hoping they actually merge the boilerplate code back into UE5 as they mentioned a couple of times in streams

[rigid sapphire]

Well I can only see two reasons 1) They felt that there are valid alternative designs that a dev may want to pursue and forcing this particular design isn't the right call or 2) The effort to integrate code into the engine is greater than the time allocated to the task, at least to date. Hopefully they are working, plan to work on, on integrating anything that falls into category 2).

[ripe comet]

Hopefully they're working on GAS 2.0 or Prediction Plugin etc.

[slate tundra]

I would rather see those generic plugins to simply be part of UE5 and not require Lyra.

At the moment the reason why they've done this is it's a lot more difficult to modify and iterate on work in progress plugins within the actual Unreal branch

Including them in Lyra gives a lot more wiggle room for large refactors and changes

I do agree with what you're saying though. A lot of Lyra's architecture is interwoven with those plugins (CommonGame), and it's a bit more difficult to add those plugins when they don't come with stock UE5

[lone python]

If UE5 correctly used and supported Git submodules, it would be really easy to start new official repos of each of the Plugins that comprise the base Lyra systems.

My guess is part of the problem and complexity with officially releasing the code is the extreme amount of manual work that is necessary to merge that plugin code since they're not represented as Git submodules and instead are manual copies.

Completely agree I'd like to see them as living repos rather than being dependent on Lyra.

[idle prawn]

Yeah submodules rule.

[vast bough]

Is this the defacto lyra channel?

[idle prawn]

Nope this is a feedback channel asking for one. However there is no push to adding one yet. We discussed this already internally afaik

[vast bough]

I have a couple of problems using lyra and I don't know where to post them. I'm building a plugin for lyra and slowly replacing every part without touching anything but my content plugin. This is mostly so I can understand the framework and how to use the workflow they have created.

I have made an experience and it works in editor and shows in the L_DefaultEditorOverview level and the front end menu option. When I load from the front end or the overview level I have no mouse control of the camera. When I load the level in editor and run PIE it works fine.

When I open my project some of my gameplay abilities don't register. If I toggle the Feature State in the GameFeatureData to "Installed" they will register fine.

Do I post these questions in UE5 General or the plugins channel? Gameplay abilities? I see we have a #food channel but we don't have a category for Epic Games official Unreal marketplace assets.

[idle prawn]

If you can't find a category, ue5 is fine

Otherwise split your questions into the topics you can find channels for

Game Features Plugin could use a channel I guess

[vast bough]

I feel like Lyras context requires a lot more specificity. This is my use case and argument in favor of a Lyra channel which would probably make the most sense under a "Official Epic Assets" or similar category.

[idle prawn]

But I'm still not in favor of having a Lyra channel because I'm convinced that all of Lyra's code can be discussed in matching channels. Eg GAS

But that's just my opinion of course

[idle prawn]

Sure the fear is that we would end up with a shit ton of channels that are barely used because every single asset wants a channel then

I will ask about a Lyra channel again in the mods channel

[vast bough]

The code in isolation, sure. The code in context of a certain framework and a way of doing things maybe not and that's the kind of the point of Lyra for me. An example of how top dogs break down a whole project.

[idle prawn]

My fear is that we would end up having a channel with lots of knowledge about lots of topics and people that look for e.g. GAS stuff wouldn't look there

I would rather push for identifying the new categories Lyra introduces and making channels for those

E.g. Game Features

And Enhanced Input

Lyra can always be cross referenced and people in those channels probably have Lyra knowledge

I understand why you want a Lyra channel, don't get me wrong

I just think the better solution is to enable people to talk about the features in matching channels

Rather than bundling it all into one

[vast bough]

Also this server is super fast and "Noisy" and I think that its not due to the large number of channels but the lack of more specific channels.

[idle prawn]

Well that would speak against a Lyra channel and more for adding more specific feature channels or not hehe

[vast bough]

Scrolling through maybe an additional 50 channels for me wouldn't be a problem (provided they are well organised like is already the case)

[vast bough]

But why not both.

[idle prawn]

Cause it splits the knowledge and userbase in my eyes

Your question can be equally posted into a Game Features Plugin channel

Which doesn't exist of course. We should request a series of channels that cover these topics imo

But yeah I will bring it up again internally

Last time we discussed it we came to the same conclusion as to what I wrote iirc

[vast bough]

Imagine if we had 600 discord channels... So specific everything that ever needed to be said could be scrolled through in about 10 pages or so.

Arguably that would be easier to parse than these monolithic channels that are hard to reference.

If lets say 3 days ago you saw something in a Lyra channel relevant to GAS or game features or plugins then you might actually be able to scroll back 3 days and see it without reading 1k messages.

My gaming community discord has 200~ members and maybe 60~ channels in 10~ categories. The dead channels are completely irrelevant since you can minimise the categories and they don't show up unless there is a new post. Just cause a channel dies doesn't mean it wasn't relevant or a good reference after it became irrelevant.

My 2 cents thanks for listening 🙂

[lone python]

The #ue5-general channel moves so fast that I don't ever bother reading it FWIW.

Horrible place to post questions IMO.

Every time I look at it there are 200 unreads, I'm not going to read through that. 🤣

@vast bough it seems like your issue is perhaps the AssetManager

Configuring it in Lyra is definitely specific to Lyra and has little to do with non-Lyra AssetManager

I believe what I had to do was to disable some of the global Project Settings Asset Manager entries, such that the GameFeature-specific Asset Manager entries would actually function correctly.

When your Asset Manager is misconfigured, then you'll see things like what you seem to be complaining about: Assets cannot be loaded, but if you explicitly open them in the editor, then they start working after that.

My attempt to document this process:

https://x157.github.io/UE5/LyraStarterGame/Getting-Started-Setting-Up-a-New-LyraStarterGame-Project

In particular the part about how I set up my GameFeature plugin Asset Manager:

https://x157.github.io/UE5/LyraStarterGame/How-To-Configure-AssetManager-for-GameFeature-Plugins

If I missed anything in those docs that you needed to do to get your project working, please let me know and I'll gladly update it.

It's a Github pages project with source and issues listed in the footer so you can add your own steps if you want and I'll publish your changes crediting you for the work.

BTW, 587 unread messages in #ue5-general.

Mark all as read 😉

[slate tundra]

I completely agree. I think something that could at least help is if threads were heavily enforced

So any actual assistance given would be required to be within a thread of the actual message

There's a ton of benefits to this, but mainly:

1. It keeps things organized, you don't have to deal with multiple people talking over each other
2. If someone runs into the same issue at a later date and is searching back, they can see the exact discussion because it's encapsulated within the thread
3. It heavily reduces the message spam because only questions will be visible in the channel itself. All discussion would be in threads

I started enforcing that in one of my servers a while ago, and it's made navigation so much easier. It can be a pain to enforce because people have a tendency to...not read, but it's definitely worth it in my opinion

[idle prawn]

That's a #969373879904641055 topic and unrelated to Lyra.

Also we got so much negativity when we wanted to introduce Forums, that we still don't know where and how to utilize them

Threads (the thing that came before Forums) are a shitty implementation and we won't use those. That has been decided quite a while ago already.

[vast bough]

Lyra Forum, two birds one stone. Let them see how effective forums can be!

[lone python]

Even Epic doesn't have a Lyra forum, for what it's worth.

It's too bad, because it's SO MUCH easier to Google for answers than to search discord for answers.

I wonder if there are stats on how often discord users on this server actually search for and find things older than a few days? (Not counting pinned items)

When people are online here, it's great for getting answers. I haven't had much success searching for answers though.

Maybe just because I suck at that. 😋

[orchid ravine]

Don't want to be a nuisance, but imho that would also reduce the possibility of a member seeing your question. The relevant people may stick to certain channels and not venture into the others. Just seems like there really isn't a win here.

[charred flare]

Nah unfortunately Insights doesn't have anything for search AFAIK

[vast bough]

I don't understand how it reduces it. I see the biggest barrier to engagement in this server is the lack of specificity and with 12000+ people online at any given time I can imagine a lot don't engage because it's quite busy. If I were to pick a channel to hang out in it would be a Lyra channel and as happens already in UE5 general (for example) if someone has a specific inquiry they get linked to a more relevant or also relevant channel.

Lyra is a set of highly opinionated ideas (A Framework) around how to structure a game as well as the boilerplate code, boiler plate UI, menus, animation layering, input system and how to interact between all the moving parts. As Michael Nolan said there is a Lyra way of doing things. A lot of us aren't just looking at a demo project and harvesting its pieces, it is designed to be consumed as a best practice from the perspective of the people who built the engine and iterate on it with their projects. This is supposedly very similar to how Fortnite is structured. I would think removing parts from the base project makes more sense than trying to take them to your own. But as a UE noob the opinionated nature of this framework is very inviting.
With lyra being a framework more than a sum of its parts it is usually pretty obvious where Lyra ends and the specific features like animation, GAS, Game features, Widgets, Advanced input, Common UI etc begin. There's lots of ways to interact with those systems but if someone is working in Lyra there will likely be a very particular and specific way with a bunch of gotchas. Following The Lyra Way™️ is very refreshing for a noob like me and I primarily want to engage with other people in the same category.

If people are building their games as lyra plugins (which looks like will be the case given how many views on YT tutorials etc) wouldn't it make sense to have a place for them to congregate, study and refer people to more specific places. Also if you're working on a Lyra based project you might want to hang out there, likely having insight in how different aspects work Anim/UI/Features/Experiences/Input etc. Like you're working on a Common UI problem and you dont find your answers in the UI category, "Go ask in #Lyra you might catch someone who knows." because it's kinda related and they could just go to #Lyra "Hey i've got a problem where my password is displayed on my forehead in game can you go #umg and have a look."

I think someone even posted a discord server in here to discuss Lyra because there currently isn't a place and the link was deleted? I didn't think that was a rule?

Daily rant over.

[lone python]

There is a Lyra discord server, but there is almost nobody on it, there is no real discussion there.

This server is definitely an amazing resource for answers.

As to the organization of it, I reiterate that I also believe there is a lot of value to Lyra-specific questions.

That bring said, I'm not a mod, I have zero desire to be a mod, and I appreciate the work the mods do and respect their decision RE what channels exist and what channels don't.

And finally, we do have this channel, which at least some of us have already been using as a "I have a Lyra question" channel. 🤠

[surreal adder]

No, we all hang out in a few channels because none of us want to monitor a million channels and there are already too many.

[stable tartan]

I have 70-80% of the channels on here muted.

I would mute more if more were added.

[surreal adder]

No it wouldn't because most of our users are here to sit in a chat and answer questions/discuss things as they come....

Nobody here is trying to hunt down and answer questions one at a time in a sea of dead channels.

[surreal adder]

That's not even a fast channel tbh

[stable tartan]

And people generally reply to you so your messages of interest are highlighted.

[surreal adder]

...it's a chat, nobody expects you or anybody else to read old messages every time

[surreal adder]

It has to do with using Game Feature plugins and Modular Gameplay more than the Asset Manager, and none of it is Lyra specific (exi also already said all of this in this thread).

[idle prawn]

As much as you rant. It currently internally looks like the mods are also against a Lyra specific Channel and more for extracting topics for new channels instead

In the meantime it might be a good idea to open a new thread here in the feedback forum with a list of new channels for the various ,mostly bigger features

[surreal adder]

The plugins Lyra uses might be a good place to start tbh

[idle prawn]

Yeah sure

I just don't have an overview as I only looked at Lyra for a few things I wanted to know about

I think Enhanced Input as well as the Game Features Plugin might be a good start. common UI is slate/UMG already. Animation is also covered

GAS too

We have mass which I think isn't even part of lyra

[surreal adder]

The main ones in Lyra are: Game Feature Plugins, Modular Gameplay, Enhanced Input, GAS, Common UI, Niagra

[idle prawn]

Yop I figured. The last three are covered imo

[surreal adder]

yeh just listing for completeness and to make sure I didn't miss something lol

[idle prawn]

We use common UI internally and for clients already. That can totally be discussed in umg

[surreal adder]

I think Game Feature Plugins and Modular Gameplay are the source of over half the Lyra questions, especially understanding Actions / ActionSets and when/how they get loaded

although I think Enhanced Input is also responsible for a fair number of questions

[idle prawn]

And again I get why peeps are asking for Lyra. But I think it's the wrong move to add that channel. Our server is made out of channels for features and Lyra is a project using features. Creating channels for those features is the better approach imo and also in the eyes of most of the remaining mods

[surreal adder]

you understand I'm agreeing with you right?

[idle prawn]

Yeah it's more directed at the rest of the channel

No worries

Enhanced Input is big enough for a channel

Even without questions

People don't even know about it yet

[surreal adder]

I also think the separate topics make it more clear that you don't need to use Lyra to use any of these features

[idle prawn]

And yes the features and Modular gameplay stuff is important too. We actually worry already that the naming could cause a second design channel

Lyra is also a bit too shooter heavy too use

It's also a strange concept for a beginner to use it at all

[surreal adder]

name it #modular-game-plugin or something to avoid that?

[idle prawn]

gameplay-features-plugin

Something something

Put it next to gas

[surreal adder]

Do we want to lump Game Features and Modular Gameplay together? The official overview page does, but they're 2 different things really (and 2 different engine plugins)

[idle prawn]

modular-gameplay-features(-plugin)

Yeah not sure

They work in harmony afaik

Gamefeatures uses it to push Components onto actors iirc

[surreal adder]

you don't need to use Game Feature plugins to use Modular Gameplay at all

[idle prawn]

Right

Worth a discussion

But that's why I want that to be in a new thread

I will see if I can open one tomorrow

Already at my phone

[surreal adder]

GF plugins just allow you to have plugins that depend on project Content, if you don't need that you can still do things with modular actors and components that load via ActionSets as needed

[idle prawn]

Fair enough

[lone python]

Thank you for the clarification. As a new UE user, learning by working with Lyra, it is often not clear whether issues or questions are related to specific modules or to how Lyra plugs them together and configures them.

One of the beautiful things about UE5 is there are so many ways to do things.

One of the frustrating things, not having a channel specific to noobs like me learning Lyra, is that there are SO MANY ways to do things, and everyone wants to do it differently.

What interests me however, is the way that Lyra does it, because that is my only use case, and I'm trying to learn how that works in order to learn how other use cases may also work.

Most of my questions so far have been related to GAS, and the GAS channel is amazing for getting answers.

My questions about UMG and CommonUI have been less successful, so I've essentially moved to another discord for that.

One of the main reasons I think is that as far as I can tell, virtually nobody uses CommonUI the way Lyra uses it.

They use bits and pieces, but not the entire system that essentially dictates the way input must be handled.

[surreal adder]

Lyra is very new still and it is a showcase for how Epic thinks games should use the new features. UE already has a documentation problem, but it's extra bad for new stuff (which almost all of these subtopics are).

[lone python]

Understood and agreed.

That's why I'm doing my best to document everything I learn.

Hopefully it helps. 🙂

[surreal adder]

Not to get off topic, but you might want to check BenUI's (a member here) site. He has a write up on Common UI
https://benui.ca/unreal/common-ui-intro/

[lone python]

His discord is the one where I go for UMG+CommonUI questions.

Even he doesn't really know how CommonUI works in Lyra though.

He uses parts of CommonUI, but he doesn't allow it to control his input like Lyra does.

I found a couple of people there who are doing similar things though so it worked out.

[surreal adder]

Yeh it's new-ish most people won't be using it yet

[rigid sapphire]

I think the desire for a lyra channel is largely due wanting a medium to share and collaborate on the lyra code base and design mythology. Its a large evolving project and one that epic has stated is intended as template for new games to extend off of. In my view a dedicated channel would help make that a collaborative process for those who buy into that idea. I get that not everyone likes Lyra, nor thinks its a good solution for its intended purpose, but I hope that opinion doesn't factor into whether or not a channel would be useful to those who feel differently.

[orchid ravine]

Just to add to this it does seem people are interested in useing this to build their game on top of, but it doesn't seem like a great idea imho. It's overengineered, which I learned recently is to show the Fortnite workflow (a game where things are constantly being added and removed and changed making the overengineering rather useful). They also said in one of their livestreams (the q&a one I believe), that lyra is best suited for tps games. Fps would require a whole set of new things to work fluently, and even more for an rpg style game. And just a personal opinion, but it took me about a week to break down lyra for myself. I would 100% argue most of it is unnecessary and developing a more specific "framework" for your game is the better way to go. Just seems like a Lyra channel won't add anything.

The locomotion stuff is cool though

[ripe comet]

Anyone here messed with adding ability widgets to Lyra? I've done a lot of ground work but I'm not sure if there's a better way. Lyra's method involved using onpawninitialized but you have to give the ability in the character data asset. You can use onabilitygiven, but it seems the onabilityremoved is called only when you stop the game. Currently I've been implementing an ability bar using widgets comprised of LyraWidgetTaggable(forget the exact name). This allows you to hide widgets if a tag is present. And keeps the bars visible even when a weapon is swapped. I'm not sure the best way to use a tag to add when a weapon is not in the inventory though. Best guess is add a GE in the AbilitySet that removes a tag when the set is granted. There has to be a better solution.

[grizzled dirge]

How do you make 2 weapon slots?
changed in QuickBarComponent c++ "int32 NumSlots = 2;"
did not help

[ripe comet]

Check the player character BP. IIRC you need to remove an inventory slot or modify an array.

[vast bough]

IIRC joatski mentioned at different times that it wasn't limited to TPS and they specifically included a top down plugin just so the project wouldn't have a perceived genre lock in.

[lone python]

"It's overengineered." I've seen several people make this claim. I'm wondering what about Lyra you see as being overengineered?

I'm new to Unreal Engine, so Lyra is my jumping off point.

[stable tartan]

The fact that everything is a plugin.

[balmy solstice]

I know I've seen your docs and appreciated them, even before I saw you here on discord.

My take is that Lyra is alien enough from what most people are used to, that it leads to lyra specific questions. I wonder if there's room for a "how to build games correctly using unreal systems" channel - imho thats what lyra questions really are (outside of direct systems questions). I do think it might be hard to moderate since its kindof a meta topic, but I dunno.

[stable tartan]

A gameplay systems channel might be nice.

all those kinds of questions are dumped into non-specific or too-specific channels

[lone python]

I believe the reason for this is that to get all the pieces hooked together the way they wanted, they needed to configure the "game" part of the game with INI, Project Settings, etc that they probably couldn't have done if they had just tried to make it a plugin?

Anyway at the end of the day a game is just a special plugin itself for the engine right? Lyra doesn't seem all that different from that perspective.

[rigid sapphire]

It is hard to imagine how unreal could have released a game template of the scale of Lyra, with the goal of presenting epic "best practices", and it not be subject to these kinds of criticisms.

At the end of the day having a Lyra channel does not invalidate the issues some people have with Lyra. It would just allow those of us who are interested in working on it as a base for our games a place to collaborate.

creating additional non-lyra channels like "gameplay systems" channels isn't going to do much to address the desire for a Lyra channel, nor in all likelihood be successful at funneling all Lyra discussion into those generic channels.

[lone python]

Currently working on adding a "multiple interaction option" system into my Lyra-based RTS.

In order to get a start on this, I researched the prototype interaction system Epic included in Lyra.

If you're interested:

https://youtu.be/jm0qX5KkLQs

Constructive criticism is welcome. Always interested in learning what I can do better next time.

[rigid sapphire]

nice ill take a look

[orchid ravine]

Sure! The fact that they use a central system that can be easily manipulated in blueprints exclusively (that sounds great when written out like that lol). That makes sense for a game like Fortnite, not for a normal game. Let me put it this way: say you're making a shooter game. You would probably have, I dunno, guns. Would you rather (1) have three integers, namely Current ammo, Magazine size, and Reserve ammo, orrr (2) make an equipment definition to first set up some basic things then make an inventory definition, in which you add a bunch of "fragments" to set weapon stacks which are just integers using gameplay tags as labels, then add the inventory definition to the equipment definition and create three more things, all interconnected and necessary, to finally have a weapon.

[orchid ravine]

I understand, but all the provided framework is simply unnecessary for most games. And it's certainly not best practice, nor recommended, unless you truly need them.

[lone python]

Personally my game doesn't use guns, so I haven't really looked at how they implemented guns at all. That part may as well not even exist in Lyra as far as I'm concerned. 🙂

It sounds like you're saying that rather than have a simple guns system that's easy to start with but won't scale at all, they started you off with a really scalable system that will allow you to make any guns you want, but is more complex to learn.

Personally, as a learning "how things should be done" project, I expect to see a system that can grow and expand beyond the first few days of dev of a simple system.

That being said, it's possible their guns implementation is terrible. Again, I haven't looked at it.

[idle prawn]

For a beginner, like a real beginner, Lyra is probably really overkill

And no one said that the systems in Lyra are good or fitting other games. It's fitting Lyra and some other similar projects. Again I would suggest looking at it for inspiration and not taking it as the one and only true way of doing something.

That all said, we are discussing it and as it stands now I might add 4 new channels by tomorrow evening (24 hours). That includes 3 actual channels for Enhanced Input, Game Features and Modular Gameplay, and one forum for Lyra.

And I would really like the Lyra channel/forum to be about Lyra specifically and otherwise redirecting users to the more specific feature channels

Also please don't use this channel for features and questions. It's a feedback channel. I will clean it up next time as it has nothing to do with the request itself

[lone python]

Thanks @idle prawn

[stable tartan]

Isn't that what Epic have said, though? Lyra is the way?

[idle prawn]

Epic says a lot

Last 7+ years with UE have shown that it's better to question their stuff

[stable tartan]

But that's your personal experience. My point is, unless you have that experience, you're going to believe Lyra is the way.

[rigid sapphire]

Epic was clear in their streams that Lyra won't be a good fit for everyone, but their intention is to improve it overtime. In addition to topdown game, it sounds like they are adding an explorer mode.. and further separating different functionality into optional plugins. So how good of a fit this sample is to a particular game type is likely going to change overtime.

[lone python]

You all make valid points.

Michael Noland does repeatedly say that Lyra is (supposed to be) a demonstration of how things should be done in UE5 in 2022+.

At the same time, it definitely has its shortcomings, and only time will tell if Epic continues to work on it and if it ends up being all that they hope it will be.

Experienced devs will dislike one or more aspects of Lyra that conflicts with their previously established views of how things were done in the past.

Established studios will have OurWay(tm) which conflicts with Lyra, and they will struggle to see value in Lyra as a result.

Those are both perfectly valid points of view of established, experienced developers working on established projects.

As a newcomer to Unreal Engine, Lyra is a fantastic place to start. Rather than spending weeks/months trying to make GAS functional, it JustWorks(tm). Rather than spending weeks/months trying to figure out how to get cross-platform UI functioning, it MostlyWorks(tm). Dynamic sound is built in to the system, zero effort required. Multi-threaded non-blocking animation blueprints are built in and ready to go on day 1. Dedicated servers, listen servers and connecting to network games is built-in, day 1.

The weeks/months that a newcomer would have had to spend trying to figure out how all of these systems are intended to be used and connected together are instead spent learning how the systems ACTUALLY ARE used and connected together in the Lyra framework.

It's true Lyra isn't perfect. There are bugs. There are in some cases questionable design decisions. In other cases, some parts of foundational code it's built on needs a complete code refactor (looking at you, CommonUI).

IMO it's still WAY BETTER than starting from scratch if you're a new developer and/or you are starting a new project. It's not hard to remove the parts of Lyra that you don't want to use.

Then again, as stated, I'm new to UE, so I could be wrong. This is just my personal experience in the past few months of learning UE.

[rigid sapphire]

I would add to that Xist is Lyra does a decent job with showing you how to expose low level functionality to blueprints so that designers and artists can do their thing. It also serves as an interesting example for how logic can be segmented into different plugins and subsystems. It also shows off some fancy things like threaded animations via blueprints.

[stable tartan]

The major shortcomings is that it's overly complex and parts of it just don't work 😛

[lone python]

It's true that minor parts of it don't work as well as they could.

As for whether it's overly complex, I'll reserve judgement either way until I see if, and how well, Epic updates it in the future, and what those updates entail. You could be proven right, or wrong, but IMO it's too early to know for sure at this point.

For now at the very least I appreciate Lyra for what I think it is: Epic pulled out some of the core elements of Fortnite, one of the most successful games in history, and put it on display as Lyra, trying to make it more generic so it can serve as the basis for other games.

[stable tartan]

You know what I'd like to see is each part of the game in a standalone environment just to show how that bit works. A steam game that has absolutely nothing else than fully implemented steam stuff. An inventory game that has nothing but a working multiplayer inventory.

Etc.

[lone python]

Yes that would be nice.

[ripe comet]

I'd like to see Epic do anything with it.

[orchid ravine]

I'll agree with you, but good luck debugging things lol. Also I'm assuming you're talking about indie dev. AAA devs are probably laughing their asses off at Lyra's implementation lol

[spare bear]

At this point I would simply argue the community wants the lyra channels. The community needs the lyra channels. The mods either have an insider who wont let them create it now or advise they wait , or its just full dictatorship mode here. I would also like to add as a collective it would be best to just choose our new dedicated Lyra discord rather than begging for it here. We are mixing in great tips and giving good info , all is being lost. We need to start organizing as soon as possible. Try not to look at new Lyra discords as DEAD. They will all be new until we add to them. lets move forward .

[orchid ravine]

Soviet anthem intensifies

I dunno about a Lyra channel, but maybe a couple channels about specific features.

[surreal adder]

#970067961345896488 message

[idle prawn]

I don't think they laugh at it. AAA devs struggle with UE as much as indies. The only thing they usually do is cry on UDN about it instead of here

[idle prawn]

Not even the community is fully convinced about getting a Lyra specific Channel. :P

It's mainly a handful of repeating peeps that want it here, but again I'm willing to give it a try, together with new feature channels

If the channels have more or less 0 traffic then we can see that in the statistics and do something about it

And no, it's not one person that is against it. There are several mods against a Lyra channel for the same reason I already posted several times.

Some don't care, others say to just test the forum Lyra channel

[orchid ravine]

Well, maybe it'll work out. We'll see, I guess.

[idle prawn]

Yap

[idle prawn]

So, I would love to open up the Forum Channel, but apparently Nick doesn't allow moderators to fully create Forum Channels.

I literally can't answer my own post, nor pin or delete it. So we gotta wait until he wakes up and fixes that.

I released #game-features-system #modular-gameplay-plugin and #enhanced-input-system for now.
Lyra will sadly have to wait as stated above.

[lone python]

Thank you!

[gray jackal]

Hey folks. I'd like to see how these 3 new channels fare before adding a dedicated Lyra channel on top of it. Thanks for all the discussion around this.

[ripe comet]

Sad

[lone python]

The good news is that these channels cover most of the questions people seem to have about Lyra.

The only one that may be missing is Common UI

That's sort of meta-UMG right?

In the case of Lyra, Common UI isn't just for pretty pictures, it has total control over the user Input.

So similar, but different. It's another layer of Lyra-specific Common UI that most people don't use if I understand correctly.

[slate tundra]

Their setup for CommonUI is also heavily interwoven with CommonGame, which is Lyra specific as well

[lone python]

So maybe some discussion of that combination of plugins? Common Game + UI?

For example, I submitted an Engine patch that only affects Lyra users who are using the Common UI system and also want to have a visible mouse cursor for their players.

This has zero applicability except in that context.

Not sure where I'd post about something like that where Lyra people could actually find it and use it to patch their own engine.

[kind swallow]

I was hoping to talk to other people about if/how they have adapted the Lyra project for an RPG-style game

[rigid sapphire]

ya a bit of a bummer

[balmy solstice]

This is perhaps a matter of semantics, but would it be more acceptable to have an "Epic Samples" channel then. Epic provides a lot of sample content, they dedicate a whole launcher tab to it.

[ripe comet]

Not sure where to ask this but in Lyra my characters have started to sometimes not actually die when killed. Their attributes are zero but they're still able to cast and attack but take zero damage since they're dead. Any ideas?

[stable tartan]

Have you changed the code at all?

[gray jackal]

#ue5-general is a good place to ask a question like this for now.

[lone python]

Probably not Lyra-specific. Try #multiplayer ? Seems like a replication issue.

[ripe comet]

Yeah. I did change the respawn timer to be shorter. Maybe there's an issue where that's too fast.

[grizzled dirge]

please help me hide enemy hp bar

[ripe comet]

Would be nice to know. Also how to add the bar to allies if anyone has messed with that yet

[surreal adder]

so you guys are just gonna ignore pfist and ask Lyra questions in the feedback forum anyway?

[lone python]

This question really is 100% specific to Lyra

Where should it be asked?

@grizzled dirge check the W_Nameplate widget, that is what you're seeing there.

[surreal adder]

that is irrelevant... this is the server feedback forum; pfist told you to ask in #ue5-general since there isn't a Lyra channel yet

[lone python]

The problem with that, is #ue5-general is a terrible place to ask questions. Way too much noise not at all related to Lyra there.

I 100% agree that general questions should be asked elsewhere.

It benefits everyone.

[surreal adder]

ok keep doing whatever, just giving you a heads up that this is the wrong place to ask/answer questions

I wouldn't keep it up though especially after the server owner told you where they want you to do that

[lone python]

My (perhaps incorrect) understanding is that all generic questions were to be moved elsewhere.

Things that are 100% specific to Lyra, and not general in nature at all, was not discussed AFAIK.

[surreal adder]

no, this is forum is for giving feedback on the server and nothing else

[lone python]

There is still a question of whether Lyra has enough specific stuff to warrant a channel or not.

Unless that has been definitely decided, in which case I missed it.

[surreal adder]

right and you can discuss adding that channel here, but this isn't where you do actual Lyra discussions

[lone python]

In that case, the question he asked was a good example of a Lyra specific thing where people are legitimately confused about where they should ask those kinds of questions.

[stable tartan]

The only thing people seem to be confused about is what the purpose of this forum is.

[surreal adder]

correct, but for now the mods haven't decided on adding a Lyra channel; therefore those questions should go in the next best fit, be that #ue5-general , #enhanced-input-system, #gameplay-ability-system, #game-features-system, #modular-gameplay-plugin, or elsewhere

this space is just for discussing the server feedback on a potential Lyra channel

[lone python]

Understood.

What better way to demonstrate the need than to ask questions that REALLY ARE 100% specific to Lyra and not at all generic or related to UE5 otherwise?

So far we have 1 good Lyra question asked IMO.

Thus the vast majority of all stuff can be moved to other channels, and so far Lyra specific question volume is low, perhaps not warranting another channel.

[surreal adder]

you've already made your point... the mods understand your request and you might get it but you need to deal with the fact that you might not

either way the questions and answers don't go here

[balmy solstice]

Would it be useful to mods for us to keep track of lyra specific questions posted in other channels? So they can get a feel for the frequency and how well they've been answered?

[lone python]

Doubtful IMO. The mods have seemingly made it clear they don't see any value in Lyra and they don't want people discussing it outside of the generic UE concepts that make it up.

Either that or they think it's just a fad that will fade soon and don't want to pollute their channel list with it?

Anyway, chances of getting a Lyra channel are very low, if existent.

[merry flare]

Has Epic made a statement about how frequent they plan to update Lyra? Because if they plan to keep it up to date I can see value in making a channel for it.

[lone python]

AFAIK they have not. They've said conceptually they intend to update and extend it. I imagine that a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted.

[merry flare]

IMO the project should be on github if they are planing to update it throughout the engine's life.

Even if they don't update it, I can see the community keeping Lyra's framework alive. But I'm not sure if it's even possible to make a public repository out of Lyra due to license concerns.

[surreal adder]

I feel like you guys are forgetting ShooterGame and ARPGGame.... Lyra might get another update, but thinking it will go on GitHub or become more than a sample is just ignoring history

[surreal adder]

they don't want people discussing it outside of the generic UE concepts

...no... they don't mind/care if you discuss Lyra specifics; they just don't think it warrants its' own channel at this point

if you want to ask a Lyra specific question ask it in the best channel available

[ripe comet]

I know Nick has been answering some questions in UMG and Slate on Lyra. Which is good since he created the UI.

But he's very busy and sometimes gives incomplete responses.

[merry flare]

I mean, Epic has made some statements about Lyra that never made with RPG action (Tho I'm not sure about ShooterGame). Statements like... Its architecture is designed to be modular, including a core system and plugins that are updated regularly along with the development of UE5. We just don't know how regular those updates will be.

[surreal adder]

that's just how it goes... this isn't StackExchange but for UE or UDN or the official forums... it's a place for UE devs to hang out, if your question gets answered that's cause somebody who knew the answer was around, but it's not the goal to answer every question

[surreal adder]

we'll see, I doubt it though

[merry flare]

Releasing Lyra on Github would make their intentions really clear though.

[surreal adder]

That's not going to happen when they have their own launcher and all their other samples are on it

[merry flare]

Well at least Lyra's code is very "standard" when it comes to engine's code. An experienced user should be able to make a game with it even if Epic completely abandons it.

[lone python]

I'm new to UE. Many years of C++ XP, but new to UE. That's why I'm so invested in Lyra. It's a fantastic starting point, with all the weeks/months of boilerplate plumbing crap already done. I don't have the history with ShooterGame or anything else.

If Lyra doesn't go anywhere, it was still a great place for me to dig in and learn.

That being said, Epic did release some plugins VIA Lyra.

Last night I was reading their newly updated docs on those plugins.

I was shocked to see them suggest that if you want to use those plugins, download 5GB of Lyra, make a sample game, then copy the C++ out and export to your own project.

Clearly that is fundamentally broken.

Surely it's not their intent to keep it that way.

Hopefully they break the code out at the very least and free it from Lyra so others can use it without such a hack.

Who knows. 🤣

[merry flare]

I'm also starting to use Lyra because it solves many problems that I had in the backlog. It feels nice to see they implement similar solutions to what I had in my mind.

I was already using Gameplay Abilities, enhanced input, asset manager, etc. so porting my project is (mostly) going smoothly.

[idle prawn]

@lone python Just to clarify. While not everyone was for it, no one was clearly against adding the channel. The channel even exists and is private at the moment. So it's not the mods that are stopping the channel from existing. Nick came in last minute and didn't allow me finishing the channel and making it public.
That's why he was the one telling you that the channel won't happen, cause I told him that I'm not gonna do that.

About Lyra, ShooterGame, Epic Games and what not: Everyone who has been with the Engine for awhile has seen all the previous projects. So there aren't any signs that it's different with Lyra. They are released, receive some minor updates overall and some "keep up to date" patches. They might get a few more features to ensure new stuff is also showcased, but the projects were never really developed further.

That doesn't mean Lyra is the same, but that might help you understand why some peeps don't think much about Lyra, despite it being some glorified code dump.

It's probably hard for new peeps to understand and see that all, how could they. But UE usually gets what Epic needs for their own purpose. E.g. Fortnite for example.
That all said, I do hope Lyra is not just left alone and it's plugins are somewhat integrated back into the engine eventually, but history has shown that this is either a super long process or just won't happen

[balmy solstice]

Thanks for the clarification. I mentioned this once before, but I'll reiterate it because I think its important. There's a big need for a "systems design" channel. A place I can go and ask, "I'd like to build X, what collections of systems should I use and how to wire them up?". The server is great for specific features help, but there's a huge void in help on the HOW and the meta aspects. Documentation and forums cant cover this well because its game specific, but I believe discord can do this much better. My 2c, I'll shut up now. 🙂

[idle prawn]

Sure, you can request that, but that has nothing to do with a Lyra Channel

So if you want to talk about that, make a new request (:

[ripe comet]

Epic might not formally update the Lyra Starter Game, sure. But myself and many others have been building Lyra out for our own projects since its release. We have intimate knowledge of parts of the system. It's just a shame there's no where to go to fully talk about this specifically.

[surreal adder]

but we have channels for the features that those parts use.... that's where you'd talk about them

[ripe comet]

Do you even use Lyra Xero

[surreal adder]

yes extensiely

[ripe comet]

You sure are here downplaying our discussion a lot

[surreal adder]

no I'm trying to keep you on topic...

[ripe comet]

I can understand that

Just sometimes comes across negative is all

[surreal adder]

most of this discussion did not belong in this thread

this is for discussing changes to the Discord server and we have people asking and answering questions here

[ripe comet]

Because we know the hoops we've had to go through just to get answers on the framework.

And as far as I can tell, random Forum posts have been the biggest discussions.

[surreal adder]

because you're not listening to the advice being given imo... if you all went to the channels we're telling you to be in you'd all be there and able to discuss things

[ripe comet]

UE5 General is a bit silly of a place to discuss things.

[surreal adder]

explain why

[ripe comet]

That's like going to Walmart to buy a new sports car.

[surreal adder]

what if you actually explaind what the issue was? what would that look like?

[ripe comet]

Because it's a general chat channel. How does that make sense? It's flooded with new users for one, and anything discussed is going to be lost to the dredges of the discord search. It's hard enough finding old answers when you know where/how to look.

[surreal adder]

all the channels on this server are for general discussion on various topics; this isn't a place for submitting questions exclusively... if the people who can help are available they will....

Other places such as StackExchange, the UE official forums, or Unreal Developer Network are for answering questions in a thread format

Discord is primarily for chatting

[surreal adder]

well most of the discussion for Lyra stuff would be in #enhanced-input-system, #gameplay-ability-system, #game-features-system, #modular-gameplay-plugin, #blueprint, or #cpp anyway... #ue5-general is for very general stuff

[slate tundra]

Having to go between multiple channels to ask Lyra specific questions does not sound ideal.

yeah you actually just summed it up

[surreal adder]

well that's how this server is designed

[slate tundra]

that's 7 channels I have to potentially bounce around

[surreal adder]

right that's intended

Lyra doesn't have much specific to it anyway... all your questions belong in those channels because you're using those systems

There are tons of engine plugins that don't get their own channels because they aren't used widely enough, a demo getting it's own channel would be odd tbh

[slate tundra]

Let's say I want to ask a question about Lyra's Experience system, would I go to #plugin-dev, #modular-gameplay-plugin, #cpp, or #ue5-general?

What if I have a follow up question with how I'd set it up with their custom animations blueprints, would I have to go to #animation and explain my situation over again there?

[surreal adder]

Lyra's animation BPs are not special in anyway, those are general new UE5 features

[slate tundra]

ah yeah you're right, but my point still stands

[surreal adder]

what point? you have to use the server the way it was designed?

[slate tundra]

That you'd have to move around a ton of channels compared to asking in one

[surreal adder]

listen I'm just repeating what the mods who run the server have told you guys already

[slate tundra]

Where would I go if I wanted to ask about the experience system?

[surreal adder]

#ue5-general or #blueprint

[slate tundra]

Lyra doesn't have much specific to it anyway

Yes, yes it does

Experiences system
Indicator system
Inventory system
Game Feature extensions
AsycMixin Plugin
GameSubittles plugin
PocketWorlds plugin
CommonLoadingScreen plugin
GameSettings Plugin
CommonGame plugin
CommonUser Plugin

Which are all specific to Lyra

those the specific additions and plugins I can think of off the top of my head

[surreal adder]

no they aren't...

we even have a whole #game-features-system channel

it's not specific to Lyra

[slate tundra]

what isn't specific to Lyra?

[surreal adder]

half of your list..... 1 sec

[surreal adder]

Not specific to Lyra:
Game Feature extensions
AsycMixin Plugin
GameSubittles plugin
CommonLoadingScreen plugin
GameSettings Plugin
CommonGame plugin
CommonUserPlugin

[slate tundra]

That's very interesting, where else are they used outside of Lyra?

[ripe comet]

Experience System isn't specific to Lyra?

[surreal adder]

any game that wants them... they're engine plugins

[slate tundra]

but they are contained within the Lyra project

they aren't engine plugins

[surreal adder]

it is that was my mistake

[slate tundra]

hmhm lol, I stand by my list

everything I listed above is within and built for Lyra

[surreal adder]

you can stand by being wrong all you want

[slate tundra]

Okay could you elaborate then?

[surreal adder]

what do you want more info on

[slate tundra]

I'm stating those plugins and features are within the Lyra project. Epic developed and shipped them within Lyra

you're saying they aren't specific to Lyra, so I'm asking where they originated from

[slate tundra]

As Xero mentioned, yes it is

[surreal adder]

I read it the first time... it's still incorrect and I already told you what was wrong with the statement what other info do you need?

[slate tundra]

This

[ripe comet]

It would be nice to have a forum for Lyra if nothing more than being able to tell people what channels to ask their specific question in.

Until that happens you'll be in here every day doing the same.

[slate tundra]

I could be misreading which is my bad, but what message?

I already told you what was wrong with the statement

[surreal adder]

OK so should we do for the other 5+ demos that Epic made?

[surreal adder]

#970067961345896488 message

[ripe comet]

Since they're outdated and not really relevant to the conversation probably not

[slate tundra]

That doesn't explain or give info on what I asked though

you're saying they aren't specific to Lyra, so I'm asking where they originated from

[surreal adder]

My point is Lyra isn't used as often or as widely as the plugins that do get channels... making new channels is not something that happens often or lightly on this server

[ripe comet]

Yet we have a food channel

[surreal adder]

also pfist is the owner and they said no for now

[surreal adder]

make another thread if you want to complain about that

#970067961345896488 message
#970067961345896488 message

[ripe comet]

No soup for you!

[slate tundra]

@surreal adder Bumping this, could you explain where they originated from? Since you're stating they aren't specific to lyra

[ripe comet]

Haha no, I'm not a food Nazi.

[surreal adder]

I'm not going to it's off topic for this "Forum Feedback Request"

[lone python]

Thanks @idle prawn, I appreciate the clarification.

I definitely understand where you guys are coming from. You've seen Epic launch projects like this in the past, and each time they have abandoned them. What reason do you have to think Lyra will be any different? Why would you want to make a channel that won't be used? I totally get it. 👍

The good news is that with the addition of the new modules, most of the Lyra questions can be answered there in a way that benefits the entire UE community, and not just the Lyra subset. I support that and thank you guys for the work you do to support everyone here. Thanks for that! 🥳

I do still think there are 2 areas worth considering:

1 = CommonUI + CommonGame

AFAIK other than Fortnite, nobody uses these modules together like Lyra does.

It seems to be Lyra specific, but if you make a CommonUI+CommonGame channel, perhaps others will start to base their games on this system in the future, who knows.

This combination is the kind of thing that the ENTIRE GAME needs to be structured around, which means only Lyra and other brand new projects will be interested in this. (Perhaps I am mistaken?)

2 = Lyra project specific questions, philosophy, methodology code review/discussion

Admittedly this is a much smaller topic than it was before you released the new channels.

However there is still a void here. Whether there is enough of a need for this to justify a channel is up to you guys.

I respectfully request a channel to discuss things that really are specific to Lyra, even though (and precisely BECAUSE) I also understand it will benefit new devs, even if not necessarily experienced devs. 🙏

(Sorry for the wall of text in the middle of your discussion guys)

[slate tundra]

Ah okay, what channel would be better to move to? I've been researching Lyra for my job for the past couple of months, so if you have info I don't know about I'd love to hear more

[surreal adder]

no problem that's how Discord works.... that's what we want you guys to get used to in the chat channels after all

[surreal adder]

I'd be happy to discuss in #ue5-general later, but right now I'm traveling and was only on to do some simple responses

[slate tundra]

The moderators were for it, but something out of their control came up

The channel even exists and is private at the moment. So it's not the mods that are stopping the channel from existing. Nick came in last minute and didn't allow me finishing the channel and making it public.
That's why he was the one telling you that the channel won't happen, cause I told him that I'm not gonna do that.

[surreal adder]

right the mod who made the other new channels related to Lyra such as #game-features-system was leaning in favor... but pfist is the server owner and their word is final

[slate tundra]

Like I do agree a Lyra channel would be helpful, but they've made it clear it won't be happening for reasons they haven't explained, so I don't know how useful it is bring it up over and over

[surreal adder]

this is an unofficial server remember

[slate tundra]

I do wish this forum thread could temporarily be the "Lyra discussion channel" instead of strictly for request/feedback

[rigid sapphire]

They decided not to for the time being because they are hoping the new channels they created instead of the one asked for will serve that need. Which it won't, but that is the owners call.

[surreal adder]

well you Lyra users are kinda looking at this through a narrow lense those features can/should also be used outside of Lyra

Lyra was a sample to show you how you should use them

[slate tundra]

I feel like this forum channel has been really under-utilized and "wasted" for being restricted to only feedback.

I think I recall a moderator say they got pushback from the community and decided to only use forums for feedback, which I think is really unfortunate

[ripe comet]

According to Michael Noland, it's more than just a sample to show you how to use them. It's a base, a framework to extend and build from.

But that's been said to death here already.

[surreal adder]

The feedback channel was made into a forum as an experiment with the new forum feature, generally this is a chat server

[rigid sapphire]

Xero - we are looking at it from the perspective of Lyra is a framework designed and intended to be built off of and one that Epic has stated (whether they are lying or not is another matter) they intend to continue to enhance and to be that framework going forward. We are interested in collaborating around that framework, not the specific modules/plugins the mods think are important enough to create channels for.

[slate tundra]

For reference I use Lyra's plugins outside of its project, such as CommonGame, CommonUser, and GameSettings

but there are very specific questions pertaining to those plugins that they would still fit within a Lyra specific channel.

Basically a Lyra channel would be for discussion about the Lyra project template, but also the plugins it also ships with and provides

[surreal adder]

You need to learn to read between the lines with Epic, they say lots of things

[ripe comet]

Well my team has been doing exactly as Noland has stated, and it's going very well. There are very specific questions pertaining to the implementation of modules in Lyra that would be nice to have an open discussion for.

[surreal adder]

ok let's look from another angle.... what channel would you as a question specific to the Taskgraph system (way more used than Lyra).... not everything can have it's own channel

[slate tundra]

I do agree you can't have a channel for everything, but I think it's worth "trialing" channels to gauge activity

If a Lyra channel proves it's active and worth it, keep it, if not archive it

[surreal adder]

I also have projects based on Lyra at my company that my team and I work on, it's a fine base template but you guys are banking on promises that have no track record of being kept

[rigid sapphire]

You are acting like creating a channel for things people are interested in discussing today.. somehow harms the future where that thing might be abandoned?

[surreal adder]

look if you ask me we delete everything except #cpp #blueprint and #lounge

I'm just explaining how the people who run the server think

[surreal adder]

I'm not... I'm relaying to you what the mods have said ad nauseum for years at this point

[rigid sapphire]

No need to explain, they were clear in their reasons.

[surreal adder]

well I guess they weren't since we're all still talking on this thread

I don't like channel hopping any more than you guys do but that's the whole design of the server

and they don't like adding or removing channels

#cpp is the most active channel by far, it's frustrating seeing people complain that nobody is helping when they ask questions in dead channels and the mods won't remove the channels to prevent that

adding an extra Lyra channel will make that worse

[slate tundra]

I honestly think it would be best to have multiple #cpp channels, because I feel like only having one would be a bit too crowded

I do agree with you though

[lone python]

Personally I completely avoid #ue5-general, #cpp and any other channel that is so busy I can't possibly keep up.

Such channels have no value to me.

I'm here for information.

Segmenting the discussion is how to make it relevant.

Segmenting it TOO much is similarly bad.

It's definitely not an easy decision, it's a fine line.

#ue5-general is absolutely completely worthless tho for my purposes of finding information.

[surreal adder]

Serious question because I am wondering what draws people with similar preferences here:

Why are you using an unofficial Discord (chat) server as opposed to the official UE forums, if you prefer forums to chat?

[lone python]

Because there are 1000s of people here who actually pay attention to this discord, and I can usually get answers here within several hours/days, as opposed to the official forums which virtually nobody actually reads or responds to.

I do try to search for Lyra questions every day on the UE5 forums and on Reddit so I can help people.

Virtually nobody else does that AFAICT.

I'm still working on my UDN access, which I hope will come thru in the following days.

Perhaps when that happens I'll have better luck getting answers on UDN.

The official UE5 forums are generally not very good tho.

[surreal adder]

Right but we pay attention because it's chat...

People who like to lurk in the chat channels will pop in to answer questions if they feel like it but don't want to be actively browsing a forum....

Therefore busy channels get the most help....

Therefore making them less busy will mean less people hang out to help and less people will get helped.

[lone python]

I see your point.

Consider the #ue5-general in particular, where there are many conversations happening simultaneously.

I post a question, and within minutes it is buried by many other people talking about different things.

If nobody saw it in those few minutes, it will not ever be seen.

[surreal adder]

well that's because the general channels are for the handful of topics without their own channels and for new users....
a natural consequence of this is that specialists tend to just hang in their specific channels and maybe #cpp

[lone python]

Unrelated: I have a meeting I have to be physically present 🤢 at in 25 minutes so I need to start driving. Enjoying our discussion, sorry to have to leave.

[surreal adder]

most people aren't going to scroll anything to see messages that are more than few seconds old in channels like #cpp you just need to make yourself a part of the conversation and ask again after enough time has passed (link your original post)

[rigid sapphire]

If someone has a high interest in Lyra content they are likely to keep up on the full discussions within a #lyra channel. This is the main benefit of such a channel to those of us who have a strong interest in Lyra as a framework.

[surreal adder]

ok check out #slate to see how that logic works out

[stable tartan]

Does Lyra really use slate? I thought it used CommonUI which is more UMG.

[surreal adder]

I think you misunderstood... I was using #slate as example of a mostly dead channel where only specialists and complete beginners tend to go

DarkStar was basically saying Lyra specialists would lurk in a Lyra channel if one existed, but I'm saying it will end up very dead

because there are less Lyra users than people using any of these other dead channels

[rigid sapphire]

I do a lyra search in this discord daily. I have a good sense for how many attempts there are to start conversations on the topic. The vast majority of the time a question gets no serious response, they go un-noticed and even I don't feel inclined to engage in a single question/comment that happened 10 pages earlier in the channel discussion. Where as if there was a dedicated channel I am certain that would not happen, as already shown to be the case in this discussion channel which isn't even intended for that purpose.

[stable tartan]

Oh right, okay!

[rigid sapphire]

You are mistaking how common something is with how much interest there is for discussion.

[surreal adder]

No, I am not considering interest at all and on purpose

I am stating how the server is structured, what the mods have said already and in the past, and how things pan out in reality

[rigid sapphire]

I find it odd you are here predicting how un-used a lyra channel would be when clearly there are people here interested in using it.

Yes, the mods/owner has made it clear why they don't want to add it. No need to go around and around about that.

[surreal adder]

I am predicting that it will be a mostly dead channel and people will still complain their questions aren't getting answered because channels with a larger user base have this issue

[rigid sapphire]

I am not taking issue with that. I am taking issue with YOUR rationalizations of why you don't think its useful.

[surreal adder]

well then why are you still asking if they said no? I'm not trying to go round and round but that's the crux of it

[rigid sapphire]

see above.

[surreal adder]

OK so you have an issue with my personal opinion that doesn't matter much here? I've been on this server a while and my opinions are based on my experience here and the stats they have made public periodically; other than that I just don't care about interest on any topic it's all about how many users are in the channel

if the channel isn't moving fast enough for people to complain about getting buried, then basically nobody will lurk and you will have far less helpers

[rigid sapphire]

You can have any opinion you want. I just just ask that you don't project your opinions on others or color other peoples positions with your own. We have been clear why we think a lyra channel is appropriate and helpful, the owner doesn't want to add one, the end.

[surreal adder]

OK so what did I do that you take issue with... you gave your opinions, I gave mine, and the mods have spoken

I'm not projecting my opinion on to anything or coloring anybody else's position in any way

[rigid sapphire]

There are three themes I have seen given as reasons for why having a Lyra channel is bad. 1) Lyra is overcomplex and/or badly designed 2) Epic will abandon it and/or is wrong to even attempt to standardize such a framework 3) This discord is "designed" such that a #lyra channel is inappropriate. The first two mistakenly assume that those seeking such a channel must be unqualified to make a proper assessment, which is untrue. The third option is valid, although personally disappointing.

3. has already been well established and no one is arguing that its not a valid decision by the owners of this discord, nor is anyone confused by it and thus continuing to go around-and-around about it serves no purpose.

[surreal adder]

1. Irrelevant like you said
2. This is what experience says
3. Yes, this discord has an owner who has said many times what their goals are for the server and how frequently they are willing to modify the channel list; that is what is meant by the server's design

[idle prawn]

Actually the "Project gets abandoned" and "Channel?" Topics are unrelated. The abandoned stuff is just generally something hanging in the room.

CommonUI is something I would love people to discuss in #umg tbh.

[balmy solstice]

I view discord as more akin to a user group meetup, where I am likely to get the ear of someone who can rapidly point me in at least the correct direction. I almost always search discord for previous discussions on the things I'd like to know. Experts on topics lurk here, and interesting questions pique their interest. Asking more involved things on forums usually get less or no answers. Discord is for discussions, forums are for discrete help questions.

[lone python]

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that CommonUI+CommonGame is to UMG as C++ is to Assembly.

One is built on top of the other; they're not synonymous.

Perhaps there should be a different thread to discuss whether or not people care about CommonUI to justify a channel?

I only bring it up here because it is central to user input handling in Lyra, so anyone using Lyra is going to be inherently interested.

[idle prawn]

Sure

But commonUI is just an extension to ung

Umg

[surreal adder]

I think a lot of us older users see Discord as modern IRC

[balmy solstice]

I dont disagree. I grew up on Hotline, which was a mac bulletin board like app in the 90s. I still think the user group analogy holds tho. 🙂

[surreal adder]

I mean I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything here... I just think that's a more direct comparison I guess 🙂

[surreal adder]

even if we wanted to do threads, the issue is that threads auto-delete; making it impossible to search those answers later

[lone python]

Sorry, I meant another forum request thread similar to this one for Lyra.

[surreal adder]

yeh my mistake I misunderstood; was about to delete that lol

[lone python]

CommonUI is related to Lyra but not exclusive to it.

[surreal adder]

I agree CommonUI discussion should go in #umg

[rigid sapphire]

for 2) That is what YOU take away from your experience. My experience tells me it looks like Epic will continue to update it in the immediate future and that they are on record saying what their intention is. Ultimately how long they continue to "support" lyra is unknowable and any comparisons with past releases is questionable. At the end of the day what Epic chooses to do or not do is not critical to how much value the community can extract from Lyra in the present and those who would use their "experience" to argue for or against Lyra should be clear that they are only speaking for their own purposes, not others.

[surreal adder]

If you scroll up you'll see others giving the same opinion from their expiriences

[rigid sapphire]

You are missing my point. Others can have that opinion as well, it doesnt mean that opinion is valid for everyone, or even the majority. An experience can be valid and not informative as to its values to others intentions. You assume that this experience you are presenting somehow should inform how I see Lyra, it doesn't.

[surreal adder]

I'm not missing your point; I think you are wrong

[rigid sapphire]

Interesting, so your experience and I assume your superior expertise enables you to say I am wrong?

[surreal adder]

nothing enables me to say anything... I just think you are incorrect... your premise and conclusion

[rigid sapphire]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[surreal adder]

at the end of the day it doesn't matter if we come an agreement as to weather or not we can extrapolate future action from past actions.....
Lyra doesn't even currently have enough of a userbase to warrant its own channel as far as the people who matter are concerned

[rigid sapphire]

One only needs to search youtube videos for lyra over the last 30 days vs say enhanced input system to determine the level of interest.

[surreal adder]

that's one datapoint now do the same thing for the existing channels if you want to make that comparison

[rigid sapphire]

Enhanced input system is an existing channel, one that was just created instead of lyra in fact.

[surreal adder]

right.. because more people use Enhanced Input than Lyra.
Also, Enhanced Input is an engine plugin and part of UE5, Lyra is just a demo that happens to be better structured in some ways than their previous demos.

[rigid sapphire]

Cheers, I am going to bow out now.

[ripe comet]

What's the current Lyra userbase count?

[surreal adder]

Not enough for pfist to approve a channel apparently

[ripe comet]

So you don't know.

[surreal adder]

Never claimed to, if you read what I wrote all I said was there wasn't enough

[ripe comet]

But how do you even know that?

[surreal adder]

#970067961345896488 message
#970067961345896488 message

[ripe comet]

There's not a central place for Lyra users to even congregate. There's no one that even knows how many developers are using it currently. Epic can't even know more than the number of downloads.

You're making a lot of assumptions.

[surreal adder]

All that matters is what the mods think. Please read those linked posts if you haven't

[ripe comet]

And seem to be just here to counter-argue with us for some reason. Are you applying for a mod position?

[surreal adder]

No, I'm just here to voice my opinion just like you are

[lone python]

We can make an educated guess. Personally I have seen around 10 people who dug thru the discord and found this channel and have been actively requesting it. General rule of thumb is for every 1 person who finds something that's not so easy to find, there are 50 that give up before they find it. Programmers aren't regular people, so let's reduce that and say it's 1:10 that find it. That means at most 100 people so far?

Educated guess.

[ripe comet]

And think how many give up because there's no clear directive when it comes to the source.

We should be engaging conversation, not policing it.

[rigid sapphire]

Or the number of people who gave up because of the anti-lyra cheerleading.

[ripe comet]

Which extends to more than just having a channel or not.

[surreal adder]

I'm sorry you don't think me voicing my counter opinion isn't discussion; as you have noted I am not a mod and not policing anything

I think some of you are ignoring the fact that I also use Lyra and have told you as much, also that I have not said much negative about it; none of that has to do with whether or not it should get a channel

[ripe comet]

I've had maybe 1 in 10 Lyra specific questions actually lead me somewhere here on the discord. I've had more luck on other discord to be honest.

I've asked two questions today that immediately have been buried. It's laboring.

[surreal adder]

Come to terms with the fact that it is a chat. You can't just ask a question and wait for a response, you need to become part of the conversation

[ripe comet]

The channels proposed to ask questions in, already are having trouble helping because they're so flooded.

This isn't my first day here.

I know how this discord works.

It's great for very high level things, in which Lyra certainly is not. The new channels have been great, but are limited.

[surreal adder]

These are stats for a 28 day period in January this year.... Do you think 100 users is a big enough user base for a channel considering anything not in #cpp or #blueprint gets complaints about nobody coming in the channel to read questions?

[rigid sapphire]

You don't think 100 users would produce 5k message in 30 days?

[surreal adder]

well look at #multiplayer on that image

[rigid sapphire]

lounge has a little more than half of the number of chatters as multiplayer and has over twice as many messages

[surreal adder]

I'm not agreeing that there are 100 active Lyra users on this Discord, I'm just saying even that wouldn't be enough

[rigid sapphire]

enough for what? to not be in the top 5 channels?

[surreal adder]

lounge is just people posting gifs, there's way less real messages

[surreal adder]

read the rest of my message to find out: Do you think 100 users is a big enough user base for a channel considering anything not in cpp or blueprint gets complaints about nobody coming in the channel to read questions?

[lone python]

I have no experience trying to moderate a discord server, so I defer to the judgement of the mods.

I can only try my best to communicate my personal experience.

All the channels you list there are so busy as to be useless to my purposes of trying to find help and discuss the limited topics that interest me.

So IMO it's a good thing that there are fewer people talking about a narrower topic. That means the discussion is relevant and targeted.

Is it too few people? It could very well be. I don't have the answer to that. It seems like a subjective question.

[rigid sapphire]

Forgive me but this all seems like an attempt to rationalize away creating a lyra channel based on criteria that the mods themselves has never claimed.

Lyra is quite popular in the UE community at the moment, relative to many of the channel topics in this discord.

As is clear by looking at social media

[surreal adder]

I'm telling you my opinion but it also doesn't matter because the mods said no, those are 2 different things please stop conflating them

[rigid sapphire]

And this is inspit of the fact that the main discord server for UE does not acknowledge it as a important community asset worthy of a channel.

[surreal adder]

please read the other thread in feedback where we have people complaining about slow channels

[lone python]

I've seen that. I do agree with them, some of the channels are hard to get help in.

Would a Lyra channel meet the same fate? It's totally possible it could.

[surreal adder]

Nobody is saying this, we're just trying to bring your sky high expectations back to reality, but none of that is related as to whether or not they want to make a channel for it

[rigid sapphire]

My sky high expectations?

[surreal adder]

Well that's one of the reasons they're holding off... they don't like making new channels or deleting them; so they added some channels for features Lyra uses because that made sense right now

[rigid sapphire]

Seriously, I dunno who you think I am but I would appreciate you not speak as though I am some clueless half wit 🙂

[surreal adder]

If you expect more from Lyra than from ShooterGame your expectations are too high

[balmy solstice]

I posted a "Systems Design" channel request suggestion in feedback. I feel like this is a suggestion that might address the lyra specific channel criticisms, and would cover my needs for talk about how to build systems and best practices.

[surreal adder]

I'm not but if you want to read it that way I don't mind

[lone python]

I am a clueless halfwit so please don't make the mistake of giving me any benefit of the doubt. 😜

[rigid sapphire]

lol

[surreal adder]

This might be more worth your time to advocate for as I think the mods would find it more appropriate for a new channel

https://discord.com/channels/187217643009212416/1006631482825130100

[surreal adder]

I think you're a Unity dev who came to this Discord 4 months ago and has only made posts in 4-5 channels ever, I'm sorry if that means I don't think you really have a grasp of how this server works

based on search

[rigid sapphire]

#970067961345896488 message

And not that it at all is relevant, but to be clear I have spent the vast majority of my dev time on non-unity or unreal based engines.

[surreal adder]

well then you know that there's no further discussion to be had unless you're going to try to find another solution like @balmy solstice

[surreal adder]

My point was that since you're new to UE you have nothing to base your expectations for the future of Lyra on, the people echoing my opinion that it will not be updated much are long time UE devs

[rigid sapphire]

Your point is irrelevant to my purposes for Lyra. What you think will or will not happen in the future has no bearing on my current work.

[surreal adder]

I never said it did... but it is relevant to the question of giving Lyra its own channel... something no other demo game has gotten

because all Lyra is right now is another demo game from Epic with the usual promises that haven't panned out in the past

[rigid sapphire]

So if Epic continues to update lyra every major release for the next 24 months will you change your position?

[surreal adder]

Me, maybe... The mods, less likely

[ripe comet]

:remindme two years

[surreal adder]

but that won't happen anyway

and that's what I mean by a sky high expectation

[rigid sapphire]

So then it seems this whole "epic says one thing and does another" isn't really even the core issue, so why act like it is?

[surreal adder]

I don't remember stating any reason was more or less important... it's one of many reasons

[rigid sapphire]

What Epic chooses to do with source code that is already in the wild is really not primary decider for how the community takes it up and builds on it.

[surreal adder]

Nobody disagrees with that

[rigid sapphire]

They could not release a single patch going forward and that wouldn't determine if it will continue to be used as a foundation, or even extended by the community itself.

[surreal adder]

Yep

but none of that has anything to do with what the mods think or their decisions in the past or what they've said

or what the mods think about what Epic says

[rigid sapphire]

yes and everyone agrees that is their right.. so why do you keep focusing on these non-issues as arguments.

[surreal adder]

I'm saying the discussion is over because they decided for the time being and will revisit this later

and you're not getting it I guess

[rigid sapphire]

blink

[surreal adder]

#970067961345896488 message
#970067961345896488 message

[rigid sapphire]

previously read, understood, accepted.

[surreal adder]

OK well that's the end of it, so if you understand and accept what are you still arguing for?

[rigid sapphire]

pot meet kettle.

[surreal adder]

In what way? By your own admission I'm just repeating things; I'm just responding to you since you're not understanding the decision

[rigid sapphire]

I understand fine. I am merely responding when you say silly things like "since you're not understanding the decision".

[surreal adder]

That's what your posts indicate

[rigid sapphire]

So says the arbitrator of objective reality.

[surreal adder]

I don't understand why you have an issue with me having an opinion when you have plenty of your own

[rigid sapphire]

I am not sure what you mean, if you share your opinion about my level of understanding it seems reasonable that I might have something to say about that.

In any event I dont think anyone cares to watch this dialog continue.. so lets not

[surreal adder]

I mean that I never declared myself the arbitrator of objective reality or any sort of authority, I was giving my personal opinion that your posts indicate you don't understand the decision has been made and there is nothing else to discuss

[lone python]

pfist didn't close the door on the possibility for a Lyra channel. They just said the other channels will be launched now and the decision on the Lyra channel would be postponed.

That's the reason I'm still here advocating for a Lyra channel.

If I'm told "Xist, STFU, there WILL BE NO Lyra channel", then I'll be done advocating.

But until then I'm not giving up hope! 😄

[surreal adder]

You've been fine, you're not talking in circles or refusing to accept the decisions

[surreal adder]

that said, there's no point in continuing to post advocacy for it here since this thread will be long archived when they revisit; channels are added at a glacial speed and you just got 4 new ones

If we're being real about things, Epic will need to majorly step up advocacy for and support of Lyra (establishing a wider base) before the mods stop telling you to use general for Lyra specific questions

[lone python]

Just the same, I'll continue to monitor this channel, in case Lyra noobs such as myself can't figure out where to ask questions, I'll try to help at least point them in the right direction if they find this channel.

I totally agree I hope Epic steps up their advocacy.

I expect my UDN access will be established soon and I'll try to find out who I can talk to on UDN about Lyra to get a better idea what they're really doing with it.

Perhaps that will not be successful, but perhaps it will be.

[surreal adder]

might give you some insights but Epic also pivots on decisions quickly sometimes so they might not really know the future of Lyra themselves

[lone python]

Personally I'm invested in Lyra for the time being, at least until I learn all there is to learn (that interests me). At that point if Epic isn't maintaining Lyra I may look to take what I learned and build my own system based on that experience.

[lone python]

Yeah I know how that goes. I'm used to being the decision maker. I know how hard it is to have to choose between things when there are good reasons to do both, but not enough time and/or money to do both. Sometimes good projects get pushed to the side.

C'est la soft dev!

[surreal adder]

I mean Ark: Survival Evolved is just modified ShooterGame they even forgot to change the exe name.... I'm sure tons of indies will use Lyra as a starting off point

[lone python]

That was funny AF

Agree I imagine we're going to see plenty of LyraGame.exe out in the wild.

Speaking of funny things

I wonder if we named the new channel #lyra-noobs if pfist might find that an easier thing to add?

I'm certainly a Lyra noob.

I don't mind saying so.

Maybe people wouldn't mind if they couldn't find their answers there if the channel was real up front that nobody in there knows WTF they're talking about?

Then at least if those people could point them to the right channel to get real answers, it may be a help.

[surreal adder]

I think maybe you might get them to approve a #what-channel-do-I-ask-in channel

[lone python]

That's an idea...

I'm sure even outside of Lyra, noobs like me have a hard time trying to figure out where to go for answers.

[surreal adder]

any other channel requests should get their own thread here though

This channel is supposed to be one thread per request after all

[idle prawn]

Yeah, let's not do that

Also a catch all channel already exists in form of #ue5-general

And I doubt we will add another one

However, Xero is right that this is not the place to discuss that kind of channel.

Also, something you might not have noticed: The Requests now have Mod-only Tags.
Not sure if you can see them, but this one is still under consideration

It would be Rejected if we "shut the door"

[lone python]

I hadn't noticed that. Thanks for the tip.

[rancid gazelle]

whew... all that repetitive back-and-forth discourse over semantics and personal opinions.

Just keep in mind, the layout of a discord and how people use it... is very similar to people's understanding of how to code. People are at different levels, and have different understanding of how code should be encapsulated. That's the same with whether or not splitting lyra up into different components to chat about. Or perhaps it is easier to conceptualize lyra, in totality, if we just have a lyra channel.

Most users will just come in, see "lyra channel", and feel like "this is where my question belongs". If they don't see lyra, they'll be frustrated with not knowing where their question belongs. They'll just opt in posting it in the wrong channel, or give up entirely on asking for help.

imo, if we really want a lyra channel, someone here should just make a server and ask people to join to start a lyra community. no big deal

[crude moat]

I'm so confused. Where do we discuss Lyra? All I can find is this request thread, and links on reddit to an expired Discord invite URL. I'm still at the stage of needing more information about Lyra itself, not the individual plugins it uses

[crude moat]

"imo, if we really want a lyra channel, someone here should just make a server and ask people to join to start a lyra community. no big deal" Is this OK? I didn't see any rule against it, but most discord servers I'm on are against sharing other discord links

[ripe comet]

Yeah they don't let us share discords here publicly. Thus making this a difficult answer to follow through on.

[rancid gazelle]

just say "hey, i have a discord server for lyra channel. PM me for info" or something, I suppose

[ripe comet]

Hey, we have a discord server for Lyra Channel. PM me for info.

[idle prawn]

Your statement is also your opinion. :D you are adding to the back and forth. What you said has already been said before

[rancid gazelle]

hence why I wrote "imo" (in my opinion)

[idle prawn]

Even the stuff before that is basically your opinion and stuff that has been posted before.

You are adding to the back and forth :D

We are aware of all the pros and cons at the moment and we have a channel sort of ready. Nick wants to wait and see if the existing channels work out first.

If some of you want to go to a special server to discuss Lyra there, you can do that of course.

[rancid gazelle]

I was saying how "everyone has their own way in what they think is the best way to organize a discord". Personally I think that's a valid statement, that can't be false. But perhaps my way of thinking is wrong.

Either way, you're a moderator, so there's really no point in me elaborating any further. What you say, goes. I'm just trying to offer a solution that I think would be best (in my opinion), which ofcourse, could have been stated before by someone else.

[idle prawn]

I'm not even addressing the content of your message directly. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying this has already been said.

Also we wouldn't offer a feedback forum with channel requests if we weren't open to doing things that we don't agree with personally.
It's tricky to balance this, as not every single request is a good request. The Lyra one might be one, as I already pushed for it internally after putting my own opinion aside.
It only got stopped by Nick.

[slate tundra]

Are you allowed to share why nick advised against it?

[idle prawn]

#970067961345896488 message

That's what he told us too

[slate tundra]

Thanks! I think if discussion erupts here again, I would just focus on establishing that Nick told you not to, and leave it at that

Because thats a good way to shut down the argument

[idle prawn]

The discussions come up during my night basically

And I think discussion is fine

[slate tundra]

Ah that sucks, and I’m honestly not sure. I’d normally agree with you, but like you mentioned above it’s just been the same stuff over and over again for weeks

Which I’ll fully admit I was originally apart of the problem. I just don’t think it’s really productive anymore

[idle prawn]

Ah that specific thing was just a bit ironical to me

As they opened the post with how repetitive the back and forth is, only to go on and post the same stuff again that has already been posted.

[slate tundra]

I do think it applies to all of the recent discussions here, where it’s almost all the same points and reasons

[idle prawn]

Yeah, cause new people come in, don't read the whole history, and post their opinion

And that's fine I guess

I guess I can pin the last state

[slate tundra]

I really wish discord had the ability to pin a short message in a more “in your face” spot

Because to see pinned messages you really need to go out of your way to view them

[idle prawn]

Yus

Like at the top center or so

[surreal adder]

Just FYI about the rules: You can share Discord server links if they're asked for. It's unsolicited server links that are banned.

[ripe comet]

Roger that!

Thanks

[long condor]

Yes! Lyra has a ton of interesting code like the messaging subsystem and currently, I end up asking most of the Lyra stuff in #gameplay-ability-system .

[crude moat]

Also a number of Lyra-specific gotchas around things like Blueprint Core Redirects not working in game feature plugins, IIRC

[surreal adder]

but that's not Lyra specific... like you said all Game Feature plugins have this issue with redirects

that's why we have forums for the features Lyra uses instead... you can totally use the #game-features-system without Lyra

[crude moat]

Oh good to know I thought maybe there was something in there specific to Lyra

[stable tartan]

How about a Lyra channel that is just locked with a single post redirecting people to the correct channels?

Like the #more-resources channel

[crude moat]

I think the "Experiences" thing is specific to Lyra at least though, right?

[slate tundra]

Yes these were all built and included in Lyra,

AsycMixin plugin
GameSubittles plugin
PocketWorlds plugin
CommonLoadingScreen plugin
GameSettings plugin
CommonGame plugin
CommonUser plugin
Experiences system
Indicator system
Inventory system
Game Feature extensions

[rigid sapphire]

or .... just a Lyra channel 😉

[slate tundra]

Something I do want bring up again. Nick Darnell specifically told the moderators to not make a Lyra channel, so it’s not up them right now

[rigid sapphire]

Oh? Do we know why?

[stable tartan]

Technically it's not up to him. This is an independent Discord?

I can't imagine they'd go against him without good reason, though.

[slate tundra]

That’s true, but I would want to respect Nick’s wishes as well

[rigid sapphire]

I don't see any public mention of Nick's communication with the mods?

[slate tundra]

#970067961345896488 message

Here as well #970067961345896488 message

[rigid sapphire]

I read that as pfist's real name is Nick. What makes you think it was Nick Darnell?

[slate tundra]

Oh hm I didn’t know his name was Nick

That’s completely my fault if I assumed wrongly

[rigid sapphire]

I dunno if pfist's real name is Nick.. But given he is in fact incharge of what happens here it seemed reasonable assumption lol

[surreal adder]

No need to speculate his Discord profile has his webpage https://pfist.place/ Nick Pfisterer

@slate tundra @rigid sapphire You guys are just confusing yourselves.... pfist == Nick != Nick Darnell
pfist is the server owner so what they say goes, this server has nothing to do with Epic in the end.

[idle prawn]

Correct, Nick Darnell has nothing to do with this :D

[granite ravine]

No Epic employee has anything to do with the final decisions we make on this Server. Epic has no control over how we manage this Server.

[slate tundra]

Ah sorry! That's completely my bad

[surreal adder]

Why are you posting about Verse on a thread about Lyra?

[rare lynx]

Ooops! My bad, totally wrong thread, deleted!

[mighty saddle]

Anyone know the inner workings of how the lyra camera works

I used the reference viewer in BP and found just the data side of things

I'm trying to track down where the camera gets updated, basically I am doing first person but I need the camera to attached to a mesh because the mesh has a socket that the camera should attach to so it can animated 'camera shakes'

[surreal adder]

This thread isn't a place to ask questions about Lyra. It's a request for a Lyra channel in the #969360633386655744 thread. Please ask in #blueprint or #ue5-general

[ripe comet]

We have a Lyra dedicated server with over 200 users if you're interested just PM me.

[mighty saddle]

Thing is, Pfist said that we should ask here basically

[surreal adder]

please link that message

[mighty saddle]

Looking for the message

[mighty saddle]

Here

Oh I see it was for the other 3

That sucks, I dunno why they don't just add a channel for Lyra

[surreal adder]

because Lyra isn't an engine plugin.... he created channels for the engine plugins it uses

Lyra is just a demo to show you how to use existing systems

[mighty saddle]

Yeah but alot of people want to ask questions specifically about lyra

[surreal adder]

most of those questions aren't actually specific to Lyra

[mighty saddle]

I mean alot of them are tho

The Inventory system, The Camera manager Experiences

It would help is all I am saying

[surreal adder]

well this was discussed before if you want to read the mod's thoughts earlier in this thread

you could also check out the dedicated Lyra server Balive mentioned (message them for invite)

[mighty saddle]

Also having all the Lyra questions in one channel for newcommers to search through would be super helpful just by itself

[surreal adder]

Newcommers don't use search tbh, and in my opinion having questions in #enhanced-input-system #gameplay-ability-system #game-features-system #modular-gameplay-plugin, etc makes way more sense than them all going in a Lyra channel because people don't understand that the question barely is related to Lyra itself.

[mighty saddle]

True, if your looking for something specific to those it makes alot more sense

But where can I ask (And get people who actually know about Lyra itself) The more Lyra oriented questions, In C++?
Seems wrong,
In UE5 General?
That will get overlooked very quickly.

[surreal adder]

Use the Lyra community server

or ask in #cpp, it doesn't matter if Lyra is involved

if it's a c++ question that is

[lone python]

Just to follow up, the unofficial Lyra Dev server is up over several hundred active members now.

There is as much, if not more, active discussion on that server as there is here on Slackers.

I was a huge advocate for a Lyra channel here, and I still am.

The other server is growing so fast we're going to need moderation help there soon.

I'll ask again for a reconsideration of Lyra stuff here.

And I'll also reiterate that anyone who wants an invite to the unofficial Lyra dev discord, DM me.

[velvet drum]

can I get an invite plz?

[quaint garden]

they said to dm them

also damn thats a necro lol

[snow peak]

Considering Lyra implements a looot of UE5's feature set, I was curious if it would be a good idea to have Lyra related questions in a channel as such. Say questions on how it's full setup is on an engineering side, but also rig re-usability, etc. Maybe it's too generic of a channel for lyra, but considering.

[stable tartan]

That could probably be a forum thread under another heading, like epic projects or something.

[granite ravine]

Or #Example Projects ? Lol

#Example Projects

Hmmm you cant link other Topics. That sucks.

Eitherway. There is already a Topic that discusses this.

[daring bluff]

ive seen #example-projects suggested a lot lately and it sounds like a good idea tbh

[sleek epoch]

#969388777317470218 works

yeah

[granite ravine]

@sleek epoch How did you like the channel?

[sleek epoch]

im gonna be honest, i think lyra is a big enough channel to have a forum dedicated to it

but i'll live with just #example-projects and have a lyra tag

lyra is pretty big

I've been diving into it's animation system recently and it's huge

[granite ravine]

Haha. I was actually supposed to say “How did you Link the channel?”

Must have missed the typo

But its good to know your thoughts 😝

[sleek epoch]

same way as any channel 😉

[granite ravine]

I tried it as you can see in my earlier messages but it wouldnt work.

[dusty beacon]

A Lyra thread would be Kool. Been working on it since release and have both PC and Android built and working. But would be good to have a place to ask and answer questions as it is such a huge project and would be a benefit to the community 🙂

[surreal adder]

I think if you wanted to make a Lyra forum with threads for each feature (where only mods can make threads if that's a thing) it could be useful.

Lyra integrates many new or recently modified features that are new to most devs since they didn't use them in other UE4/5 projects.

[spare bear]

The issue is by not having a lyra channel you end up having to post the same question over and over until someone who can help finally see it , VS just having all interested in one area. it is odd there isnt a dedicated lyra area anywhere yet really. I get The mods like to keep everything separate , but isnt lyra its own completely unique thing ? there is no combined BP/Cpp category and Lyra is just that and then some. Lots of custom tools and plugins that only come with lyra. The one dedicated #Lyra area would be like the Lyra main hub for ONLY lyra related questions and content. If no one ever looks or everyone looks at it whats the harm ? Im sure tons of people will , but it not having it at all hurts more.

[empty cradle]

i was indifferent to having a dedicated lyra channel... until I wanted to talk about with others.

[empty cradle]

Curious and confusing to name a server just for lyra as “World Builders Network” 🤔

[sleek epoch]

@ripe comet no discord links please

[spare bear]

Just wanted to add , I feel like I am spamming when I am not trying to. If you search the Discord for "Lyra" you will see how many times i have had to post to try to get help. So far i have not been able to get any and thats ok but now all the problems I did find and or solve will be lost in the void of C++ , Gamplayability , Ue5 etc. Having a #lyra section would save those events and knowledge as well as questions. I had a actual cool Epic dev come in today and he was kind enough to clarify a few things and that knowledge will now also be lost when it does deserve a place of its own. Its not just a Lyra channel , its the begging of a #lyra Team. What I cant understand is its as simple is a click and add. It doesn't cost to have it. We literally have a FOOD category. Its just mean and unproductive to not have one at this point.

[spare bear]

A bit selfish but screw it , the point is the point. It was me who found the C++ code that brought the lyra dev here for a Lyra related question. And what happens in #c++ ? They all jump in taking it off topic of Lyra. Heck everything but lyra really. When in fact #lyra would have saved the people who are working with it that kind of off topic rush. I can barley find what we just talked about. its flooded. Dont even know if he answered any of my original questions. We need it guys.

[waxen bolt]

We seriously do. There's so much that needs to be answered for Lyra, and considering they're trying to treat it as a primary UE5 template project for starting games from, it's big enough to warrant its own channel/forum.
It took Lyra team like two months after release to get a guide out on how to even get it working online.
I got this link from Balive in #gameplay-ability-system of all places
(It came out today, in case someone hasn't seen yet)
https://dev.epicgames.com/community/learning/tutorials/375e/using-epic-online-services-with-lyra-starter-game

Getting it online should be like the most important topic, and through googling and searching this discord server, I have yet to find someone that had actually gotten it working online prior to today.

[ripe comet]

Let me know how it goes for you.

[waxen bolt]

Got it working, the guide is legit.
Well, I at least got it running from VS, not as packaged

To be specific, I was able to join from one client to the other via server browser from an EOS build

I won't be able to get a packaged version out until I dl 5.0.2, since I'm still on 5.0

[lone python]

So is there anywhere to discuss Lyra specific questions? Maybe there is and I'm just blind.

I only joined this discord a few days ago and I see Lyra questions scattered all around.

[waxen bolt]

Haha that's why this thread is here.
Unfortunately, I don't think this request has been answered.

[lone python]

Michael Noland says:

• New projects, especially from indie devs, should start from Lyra rather than start from scatch
• Lyra should be treated as if it is engine code
• Generally people should refer to Lyra as "the way it SHOULD be done" or the way it is intended to be done

IMO that seems worthy of a channel to discuss it specifically.

My $0.02

[stable tartan]

That's... just not right.

[idle prawn]

Uff, I would not see Lyra as the way it should be done at all

It's a good learning resource and it's nice to see code of a more or less finished product.

But Lyra is overengineered and has problems too.

I just recently fixed their GAS Input code, because it was simply wrong.

It's also mainly a shooter that is heavily inspired by UT, where Unreal Engine usually shines.

Don't use Lyra if you don't make that exact game.

My $0.02

But that said, a Lyra channel is of course still a valid request I guess

[slate tundra]

What was wrong/the fix?

[idle prawn]

#gameplay-ability-system message

[lone python]

There are definitely bugs with Lyra. I've published code and videos with fixes, as have others.

That's part of the reason it might be nice for it to have its own channel. 🙂

Long term, hopefully Epic fixes these issues and continues to expand Lyra. Who knows if that will actually happen, but even for non-shooter-game stuff (my project has nothing to do with a shooter), Lyra is much better than starting from zero as an indie dev.

I'd much rather find and fix the relatively few and minor errors in Lyra as compared to figuring out how to build the entire thing they have from scratch myself.

It's not like my first attempt to build it on my own will be error free. 🤣

[rigid sapphire]

one of the devs was on here the other day saying in 5.1 they are releasing a explorerplugin which fixes a number of the inventory prototype issues. I suspect this isnt the only change.

[lone python]

They already released minor updates in 5.0.2, and supposedly in 5.0.3 they pushed a few more fixes though I posted a bug report on UE forums since Lyra didn't actually change (yet?) in 5.0.3 in spite of what the release notes say.

So it seems they're doing minor stuff, at least.

Awesome that they're flushing out the inventory, that will be a good update.

[velvet drum]

Do you have links to the fixes you've done or are they all on a youtube channel or something similar? Also it's pretty insane to not have a channel dedicated to this. Like, there's a #food for crying out loud

[lone python]

I haven't maintained an exhaustive list of changes in list form. I have them all recorded in Git in case Epic ever makes a reasonable way to push fixes upstream. The documentation of changes originated by me is on my blog. Also here in this discord and on UE forums others have published their own fixes, some of which I've integrated and some I haven't.

I'm traveling today so can't send exact links, check my main url for blog links if interested:

http://xist.gg

[rigid sapphire]

Sounds like there is a need for a community github of community contributed lyra fixes.

Personally I am not sure how best to proceed on the inventory front, I was in the middle of extending the proto-type inventory, but now that I heard epic is working on explorer plugin (extended from proto-inventory) I debating if should hold off.

[velvet drum]

That's amazing! awesome work so far

[velvet drum]

what's a proto type inventory?

[slate tundra]

a prototype inventory, like something that's work in progress

[lone python]

If you haven't already seen it, there is a great post here about how to fix the current Lyra prototype inventory system so that you can extend it:

https://garashka.github.io/LyraDocs/lyra/fixing-inventory-system

And I have a related post regarding the Lyra interaction system which is used to pick stuff up:

https://x157.github.io/UE5/LyraStarterGame/Interactions/

I must admit, like you, I'm hesitant to do much/any work on an inventory system at this point if it is confirmed that Epic is going to flush that out into a full working system.

Since there are so many other parts of my game to work on, I'm working on other things for a while to see if they release it by the time I actually need it.

[rancid gazelle]

Is there a way to access Lyra via github? I'm really wanting to be on top of any updates they make. Or will my project automatically update when they push updates to the launcher?

[slate tundra]

Sadly no and no. It’s not on GitHub and your projects won’t automatically update

[rancid gazelle]

ah okay, thank you for your answer! 😄

[rigid sapphire]

Epic staff did say they are working on finding a way to make Lyra development public

apparently there are some legal hoops to jump through

[rancid gazelle]

I upgraded to 5.0.3 in the unreal engine launcher. and now lyra hot reload is throwing an error pertaining to "slatestyleregistry.cpp". anyone having the same issue?

-only happens when I turn off "live coding"