hardware

[novel briar]

Yeah, the x56x+ have more lanes.

[wispy flare]

the pro version have 128

the normal verison i think it's not 6t4 but more but trying to find specs

[novel briar]

Tbh, I remember it is much less, lol

5950x = 20 lanes

[wispy flare]

that's for normal ryzen

not for threadripper

[novel briar]

The others were not so high... but gotta see the facts

3990x = 64

Okay, not so low, lol

Anyway, you need the ware for that and make use of it.

[shrewd shard]

10gbps network

Even if it's just between your PC and server

[novel wedge]

Hey my TUF gaming x570-pro has 12 pins for the cpu, my PSU has 8 (4+4), but it also has a modular 8 + 8, can I connect a modular 8 and the non modular 4 to that 12 pin slot?

[shrewd shard]

No, they're different

Usually your motherboard will still boot with just the 4+4

Unless you're balls to the wall with a CPU and perhaps clocking

[ripe bridge]

Hey guys
Which laptop is better ?
Lenovo ideapad Gaming 3
HP pavilion gaming 15
They both have ryzen 7 4800h 8 core 16 thread, Gtx 1650 ti , 8GB
And the same price
And please don't just say HP is better or lenovo is better tell me why for example :
The cooling system in HP/Lenovo is better in this laptop model

My usage : unreal engine , blender (Game development)
Do you even advice me to buy one of them or do you advice me to buy something else
The price is 1000$ in my country

I know their real prices are around 800$ but they cost 1000$ due to taxes and import fees

[novel briar]

@unborn pike on idle, my 5950x stays ~50 Celsius

1000 rpm for the Noctua, you can use that as some base to compare to I guess

[unborn pike]

on idle this thing is 30 C

but on torture test in mersenne prime it's close to 90 C 😄

[novel briar]

Well, then I should be more concerned than you, lol

hmm.. okay, on ~5-10% usage, not idle

[unborn pike]

have you tried the prime torture test?

[novel briar]

Yeah, after you mentioned it, I just tried to run a small test of it, but after 10 minutes it was still 57, so I got bored.

What were you running?

[unborn pike]

the one that causes maximum heat and power consumption on cpu with 32 workers

[novel briar]

For how long?

[unborn pike]

like five seconds

I'm guessing I didn't either screw in the cooler properly or I have too much thermal paste

gotta reapply

I hate the retaining system of this cooler btw

[novel briar]

5 sec? wtf...

[unborn pike]

😄

[novel briar]

I'm running it. Small test or something, Max stress

But yeah, definitely something is not okay then.

Maybe too much paste, lol - I think it is common problem.

Tbf, that paste + all the Motherboard wiring is what stops me from full assembly of new PC

Once upon a time it was much easier I think, lol

[unborn pike]

I have too many sata devices, makes wiring a pain

6 HDDs/SSDs + a bluray drive

I actually ran out of sata slots on the motherboard

😄

had to disconnect the bluray drive

[novel briar]

Huh... I always wondered about these slots, lol. Never had more than 2 disks + one external.

Currently 2 nvmes + big, fat, hdd

Anyway, it been few minutes already, it stays still on 56 Celsius :/

I think the RPMs just went to 1200 only, lol

[unborn pike]

gotta get rid of the top hdd rack to make space for the 3080 rtx once it arrives

[unborn pike]

also need to mount an exhaust fan

[novel briar]

Ha! Is that.. what was the name of that case, looks damn as my previous one.

[unborn pike]

fractal design define r4 arctic or something

[novel briar]

huh, mine was nzxt

Aah, you have the lite Noctua too

The case looks kinda barely big enough tho

[unborn pike]

the cooler?

[novel briar]

Yeah

[unborn pike]

it's nh-d15 chromax.black

I just didn't bother installing the second fan

[novel briar]

750 looks small, the PSU

[unborn pike]

works fine for now

[novel briar]

Hmm...

[unborn pike]

the 5950X doesn't use any more power than my old i7 2600k 😄

[novel briar]

Well, wait to add the 3080

Gotta test it out.

Might be okay, but to me is like on the border, afaik

[unborn pike]

I can't find anything about how many amps it requires from the psu

only watts

[novel briar]

Why you need the amps?

[unborn pike]

well I don't remember fully anymore but back when I built my earlier pc you had to look at the amps on the rails from the PSU and see how much the output was

[novel briar]

Kinda can't find good numbers for 5950x, reports are from 150 to 200 w

[unborn pike]

with that you could figure out if it was enough for some specific card

[novel briar]

Hmm.... I mean, amps matter, but the continuous drain of energy - watts should be enough.

3080 is given on average 350 w

So, on average 500 for gpu+cpu? For stress / gaming will go up.

Anyway, you will notice if there are issues 🙂

[unborn pike]

should be enough

anyway, gotta re-seat the cooler ->

[novel briar]

Good luck.

[dreamy elbow]

afaik AM4 has a default socket limit of about 140W, so that's what all chips (not just 5950x) are capped to. the limit can be raised on some motherboards in bios, to about 200W, but there's no reason to do so, it's already plenty fast at default limit

[unborn pike]

@novel briar try the prime95 torture test with just two threads

that's actually the one that causes highest temps on my end 😄

[wet ore]

any recommendations on headsets with great sound quality?

bonus question: do wireless headsets give you headaches after long sessions?

[shrewd shard]

Wireless or wired, it depends on how loose the headset itself is

It has to fit your head perfectly and not squeeze your ears too much

Though obviously it's hard to test headsets for that

[wet ore]

yes definitely, your skull is multiple bones and it absolutely not designed to have hard pressure for X hours per day X days a week.
after some research I decided to give the sennheiser HD 599 wired a try. I'm sure wireless headsets are perfectly safe but the inner hippie in me just doesn't like the idea of a wireless for 40+ hours a week

[novel briar]

Yeah, you are right 140w capped. Not sure why some reports more, could be a short peak increase? I dunno.

[somber island]

Does anyone know where i can get a cheap ass 1050 TI in the UK?

Preferably brand new/unused.

[pearl quartz]

@sick cedar Corsair Vengeance CMW64GX4M2D3600C18 is my RAM

[sick cedar]

oh okay

but here are listed as 4 sticks of 16

but your display says 2 ?

[pearl quartz]

It is 2x32GB

Doesnt look like its available anywhere atm, last I looked it got super expensive

In all honesty Im curious how the move to DDR5 will go, if its just more fast 8GB DIMMs not sure it'll be worth it for awhile

[frank glade]

Anyone known if you can dual boot win10 on 2 hard drives, both being C: ?

[novel briar]

Hard to imagine it.

To begin with, you can't have two drive letters being the same under one Win.

If each one of them have C: (its own drive) that fine.

However, Win's bootloader is kinda monopolistic afaik. You can use only after it some non-Win specific ones, like grub (Linux, BSD, etc)

[frank glade]

hmm I think so. I mean I already have a C harddrive with win, I just added a new ssd to install fresh, but I want to keep both installs so I can migrate over a few weeks

[novel briar]

I did my migration recently, by just offloading everything more important to my external HDD and then just washed out everything from the new drive. As the old one was still attached, I was able to pull the necessary stuff from it. However, mine didn't had Windows. In your case, I would just format it at some point. I mean, no need to spend weeks to migrate everything, for few hours you should be all set. Ofc, in the next weeks you will gradually install sw and tune stuff as it arises.

[shrewd shard]

You can usually clone an SSD to another SSD and it won't matter

You only need to run some console commands to make it work fully

[unborn pike]

5950X single core boost temps are crazy

4.8 GHz and temp spikes to 85 C

with fans on 100%

[novel briar]

What is single core boost?

[mighty cosmos]

Looks over to my i9 9900k with a 360 aio still reaching 85C

[unborn pike]

90C!!!

😄

I don't think it would matter if I had a water cooler or not

it's simply that the die is so packed that it doesn't transfer heat fast enough to the cooler

need a better material with better heat transfer capability

[mighty cosmos]

could be

[chilly jungle]

ibm model m swquad

[violet hinge]

Feels goooood

[shrewd shard]

Gonna be having trouble running UE4 with that one

But considering the situation, understandable

[frank glade]

do you guys think the new rtx a4000 and a5000 would be ok for unreal or 3d software? I think they're based on the 3060 Ti, but with 16gb of ram

[novel briar]

Why wouldn't they? Never knew the exact difference between these two lines btw 🤔

[frank glade]

I think gaming performance is stunted because of the drivers, (I don't need that anyway), but I would expect them to work better with heavy scenes, viewport performance, baking, etc. Not sure about it though 😄

oh and also they could actually sell at msrp, ~1000E

making worth it to buy one in the current market instead of paying 3x for any 3060 Ti

I have to work on a 20mil poly scene in 3ds and my old 1060 can't handle it anymore 😔

[pallid hinge]

Prob. Bad thermal Paste or Bad cooler

My 5950x stays below 70°c at all times

But they should write on the packaging that you should use high quality or even liquid metal thermal paste.. the default stuff my CPU waterblock came with resulted in Up to 85°c... I then swapped it Out for some cooler master mastergel Something and temps went down to 70°c max.

[uneven jasper]

wait... wheres the gpu

[frank glade]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/hard-drive-ssd-shortages-imminent-if-new-cryptocurrency-blooms another pc part shortage! 😬

[pallid hinge]

Cant cryptos finally be banned goddamn

[violet hinge]

It's right there in the middle, dark

GT 710 - placeholder until I can get something better

[shrewd shard]

It's a 1030 ainit

Oh

Ohno

[violet hinge]

Sall good

Rendering at lowest levels, but my compile times are gorgeous

[unborn pike]

even a torture test with 2 worker threads in prime 95?

I mean, compiling UE 4 I barely reach 70 C

[hoary urchin]

why you torturing your cpu 😦

report him!

[pallid hinge]

prime95, wow i havent heard that name in a while

[unborn pike]

I dunno what else to use to properly test my CPU 😄

[hoary urchin]

test what? 😄

just use it lol

synthetic tests are worthless

[novel briar]

huh 2 threads are really something

[pallid hinge]

P95 was reported to potentially cause damage to CPUs a few years ago, the majority stopped using it then

[novel briar]

Imagine, damaging your CPU because of overworking it.

Guess who didn't do its job.

[novel briar]

Yo, two threads: 88-89 C and 1500-1600 rpm

[unborn pike]

same as mine

fan RPM makes no difference so I just forced it to 50% on max temps 😄

[novel briar]

Uhm... how so no difference?

It definitely makes, lol.

[unborn pike]

not on my end 🤔

100% vs 50% hardly any difference

[novel briar]

On Idle is like ~700

Okay, look: 40 C and 700 rpm, 90 C and 1500 rpm

[unborn pike]

I mean that the fan speed does not make much difference in temperature when you're fully utilizing the CPU

[pallid hinge]

if there is no difference between 50% and 100% rpm its pretty obviously a thermal paste issue

[unborn pike]

nah, ryzen 9 single core boost clocks are just ridiculous

volts too

[novel briar]

Yeah, not sure what you mean. If that didn't up to 1500, shit will go south fast with that test.

[unborn pike]

no, it does not 😉

just try it

[pallid hinge]

2 core stress test is at 72° here

which is a perfectly fine temp

[novel briar]

Run that Max stress thing

[unborn pike]

maximum heat

prime95 is a great way to check if your overclock is truly stable too

used it years ago when I still bothered overclocking

[pallid hinge]

dont have those options here, i dont use P95

[unborn pike]

your 72 C is then hardly comparable here

[pallid hinge]

alright, let me try it

starts at 80, drops down to 75 as soon as my waterpump speeds up

[novel briar]

?

[pallid hinge]

did that

[unborn pike]

ah, water cooling?

I just have a noctua nh-d15 😄

[novel briar]

omg, just discovered that I can control the case fan speeds with a slider.

My case is Be Quiet and was the most loud thing I have heard.

... I put them on 70% and is like barely audible now, lol

[unborn pike]

😄

my msi mobo has bios settings for all fans

can setup fan speed curves there instead of using some bloatware app for it in windows

[uneven jasper]

thats tiny

[novel briar]

It is hardware slider. Not sure that the case fans are connected in way that the mobo can control them, tho certainly it can read their data.

[unborn pike]

depends on mobo

[violet hinge]

what do you use for monitoring temps generally?

[devout pendant]

One of those software programs added vRAM junction temperature, back in January.
That's why there was reporting about how GDDR6X temperatures get wild runaway temps ... then people started jerry/jury rigging heatsinks and fans on the underside/backside of their RTX cards.

[rugged wedge]

does anyone know of an integrated Intel GPU that can run UE4 under DX12?

[devout pendant]

If the Rocket Lake iGPU cannot, then the Alder Lake iGPU should.

Just need an i9 Intel CPU with iGPU.

[rugged wedge]

I'm looking for the oldest intel igpu that would run ue4 w/ dx12

[devout pendant]

from https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000005524/graphics.html

You can see the point where Intel started supporting DX12.

[rugged wedge]

that's just feature level I think

several gpus I've tested my game on say 11.1

yet dx12 is supported

(it gets weird)

[devout pendant]

Can you run "dxdiag" from the run dialog box in Windows?

The "dxdiag" program might say what the iGPU supports.

I'm on my phone at work, so I can't do deep-googling to find a list of DX12 iGPUs.
I type too slow on my phone, but I type 70 words per minute on a normal keyboard and use keyboard shortcuts/hotkeys to do things faster.

[devout pendant]

lol … not worth the price … especially on Rocket Lake … worst microarchitecture ever.

[devout pendant]

Speaking of hot hardware … the Qualcomm Snapdragon 888.

[shrewd shard]

Wouldn't it be better to find a Ryzen APU?

A few special ones like the 4750G have been popping up and the launch of the 5000G is imminent

[pallid hinge]

AMDs APUs maybe can.. they are far more powerful than the intel ones at least

[rugged wedge]

I'm looking specifically for Intel because I want to make my game run on them

[pallid hinge]

any specific reason ?

[rugged wedge]

some people have intel gpus? :)

have no problem w/ AMD gpus, my game works on them without any special tweaks, for the most part

[pallid hinge]

well, if it runs on intel iGPUs it runs on pretty much anything

[rugged wedge]

yes, but it doesn't that's the proiblem

Intel igpus are different, they have variable/dynamic wave sizes and refuse to run ue4 for some reason

[pallid hinge]

tried vulkan ?

[rugged wedge]

dx12 only

I'm not really looking for a workaround - I'd like to get an Intel igpu that I can test ue4 on under dx12

preferably the oldest one that should support dx12

[pallid hinge]

i think the ones i have here support dx12

[rugged wedge]

what are they?

[pallid hinge]

i7 6700k and a i7 8750h

HD 620 and UHD 630 i believe

[rugged wedge]

for reference my 4770k w/ an HD 4600 refuses to boot ue4 on dx12

[pallid hinge]

i always had enough sanity to not even try UE4 on an iGPU

so i dont know

[rugged wedge]

the UHD 630 is better because unlike the HD 4600 it can at least create memory for DRED breadcrumbs

[pallid hinge]

it runs smoothly on apples M1 gpu tho.. but that one is pretty powerful anyways

[rugged wedge]

where it's failing at is when ue4 tries to get GPU timing metrics

yeah I don't do apple

[pallid hinge]

well, if i find a working PSU i could hook up my old 6700k and see if it works xD

[rugged wedge]

is that the HD 620?

[pallid hinge]

i think so

ah, no its a 530

Damn, If im going back to using UE4 i def. Need a build server

[rugged wedge]

just need a 5950x

[pallid hinge]

I have that one

[rugged wedge]

me too, it's plenty

[pallid hinge]

Still Takes 30+ minutes to do an engine build

[rugged wedge]

did you ever run the benchmark build

[pallid hinge]

No

Im just building the nvidia unreal branch from source

[rugged wedge]

if you ever do

compare your numbers to this

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Unreal-Engine-AMD-Ryzen-5000-Series-CPU-Performance-1967/

also, you probably won't need to be doing a full engine build every day

[pallid hinge]

It definitely Takes more than 15min

[rugged wedge]

unless you're modifying something like Actor.h constantly

[pallid hinge]

Well, its the 3rd build in less than a week

Because Nvidia released Patches

For some reason it needs a full rebuilt

[rugged wedge]

3 builds a week omg 😂

[pallid hinge]

Thats over 1.5h lost, and i already barely have time for gamedev stuff

[rugged wedge]

is the engine on an nvme?

[pallid hinge]

Yep

[rugged wedge]

how much ram

[pallid hinge]

128gb, ddr4 3666

[rugged wedge]

Task UE4 Editor Win64 (NoXGE 32c):      00:12:48

this is my record and 00:14:31 is the worst

def not 30 minutes

(4.25)

[pallid hinge]

Dunno if its the rtx branch... But im nowhere near 15min build time

[rugged wedge]

latest bios, chipset drivers etc?

[shrewd shard]

One option you have is underclocking the hardware you get yourself

So if your GPU is a 1030 GDDR5, which is about 2x the Intel, you slash its clocks in half and you'll get estimated performance

[rugged wedge]

you shouldn't need to do anything on a 5950x tbh

that 14:31 for me was right after assembly, no bios updates no nothing

[shrewd shard]

Alternatively, get a GPU from 10 years ago

I'm running a Radeon HD 6790 (on my server PC) and it's decently good at simulating low end hardware

[rugged wedge]

did you run some benchmarks to check if your 5950x is not a dud?

[devout pendant]

from https://www.anandtech.com/show/7889/microsoft-announces-directx-12-low-level-graphics-programming-comes-to-directx/2

This article is dated from 2014.

This might be a hint to the oldest Intel iGPU that supports DX12.

[shrewd shard]

A lad I know with a 770 said he isn't able to run DX12

[rugged wedge]

yeah it gets tricky w/ dx12

that's why I'm looking for someone that actually has an intel igpu that runs dx12

[shrewd shard]

I think most people would have updated from their 6000+ CPUs by now

8000/9000 kinda cursed since there's the F parts that got bought more

[devout pendant]

Is that 770 an Intel Celeron CPU?

[shrewd shard]

GTX 770

[devout pendant]

Oh, discrete GPU.
Weird because that list says DX12 should be supported by that card.

[shrewd shard]

It should, but it's mostly just a flip, there's no actual support for most DX12 stuff

[rugged wedge]

D3D12_FEATURE_DATA_EXISTING_HEAP this is the cap bit that's missing from my HD 4600 btw

the HD 630 has it but has other problems

[shrewd shard]

Why not target DX11 if you're trying to get it to run on Intels?

A lot more things will support DX11 over 12 including capable enough old dGPUs

[rugged wedge]

dx11 doesn't have wave intrinsics

I'd have to load up each IHV's auxiliary libs

there's other things too like async queues etc

they make things faster so would really benefit integrated gpus

[shrewd shard]

Then I'm afraid you have to yeet the idea of supporting Intel iGPUs

[rugged wedge]

since they're slow anyway

[shrewd shard]

It's a cursed problem you're trying to solve

Target higher end, like a 1030

[rugged wedge]

even a silly AMD Vega 8 can do ue4 on dx12 btw

shame Intel's not that great

[shrewd shard]

Then target that, Intel iGPUs are a lost cause

They're there for the occasional browser user on an i3 and that's it

Anything older than rocket lake iGPUs will be cursed problem and a half to try and support on DX12

[rugged wedge]

you know what's cursed? EVGA 780 GTX

it's a perfect gpu for testing

so many unsupported features it's hilarious

I used to have a zotac 780 but it melted so I got the evga as a testing gpu - the zotac supported all sort of typed UAV loads while the EVGA supports none above the bare minimum

(which is like uint32)

it also writes to wherever it pleases when you're doing an out of bounds write on dx12 - the zotac behaved

[devout pendant]

from https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units

Not sure how accurate this data table is.

Some Intel CPUs are listed supporting Direct3D 12 (feature level 11), but this screenshot is where the Intel CPUs support "12".

I think that extends to the iGPU, where applicable.

[shrewd shard]

The 700 series are too powerful for what they support, I'll agree there

[pallid hinge]

Yep

[rugged wedge]

sell it on ebay for $3k and get a new one? :)

[shrewd shard]

You'd think they're more futureproof but they don't even properly support DX12

It can't even mine so

Ah, you meant the CPU

Either way, if you're trying to support DX12, I think the Radeon HD 7000s did well

That's about the oldest GPU with proper 12 support

[rugged wedge]

yeah I want to get one of those actually

ideally, the same PC would have an intel igpu w/ dx12 and a radeon hd 7xxx

so I can just disable the radeon in device manager when I need the igpu for testing

once I have a computer like that I have about everything covered

[shrewd shard]

6000/7000 series should be out there for cheap

The 7850 is common since it's basically the PS4 GPU

[rugged wedge]

dedicated nvidia x2, dedicated amd, amd igpu, intel igpu

[devout pendant]

There should be a cloud company that allows cloud virtual machines where you can play with older CPUs / iGPUs / dGPUs.

[rugged wedge]

I think someone's recommended the 7770

[shrewd shard]

7770 is about equivalent to a GT 1030

[rugged wedge]

I've thought of that but I think it's more convenient to have the HW myself

[shrewd shard]

Also about equal to Vega 11

It only has 1 GB VRAM however so that might be a limiting factor

It's like 10% faster than my HD 6790

[devout pendant]

It is more accurate, but more expensive because you need to buy/own the hardware … but probably gets cheaper, each passing year.

[rugged wedge]

well I mean old hw like that is not that expensive

and you don't have to be uploading your builds anywhere

they double up as white noise machines against the stupid birds outside too :P

[shrewd shard]

You would be uploading your builds, just manually

No bottleneck from internet at least

[rugged wedge]

what are these services btw?

[devout pendant]

You could connect your 2020 rig to your 2015 rig with a LAN/ethernet cable, and transfer your UE4 builds that way.

[rugged wedge]

I am

[rugged wedge]

what companies?

[devout pendant]

It was a hypothetical question.

I was thinking out loud and brainstorming.

I was thinking there would be a market for that sort of thing … but I guess not many developers provide backward compatibility to such extent.

"must run on Intel iGPUs from 2015"

[shrewd shard]

If it runs, it runs

But targeting such old hardware is a liability especially if you include it in your marketing materials

Check the steam statistics and look from there

[rugged wedge]

think of China and Latin America for instance

world of tanks supports ultra low settings only because of China

huge market w/ crappy computers

when they did their render tech overhaul they'd explicitly left the ultra low settings in b/c China

[shrewd shard]

For Steam, the most popular Intel GPU is the UHD 620

At a whopping 1% market share

[rugged wedge]

Steam doesn't do China does it

only recently got into China afaik

yeah

so Steam doesn't reflect the Chinese market

[shrewd shard]

Even then, China most commonly plays on PC bangs

And those are pretty much with a 1060 5 GB

And Latam isn't exactly a big market share

Even tho they'd be playing heavily monetized esports, their market share is <2% of the global

[rugged wedge]

imo you can't go wrong by supporting more things

[shrewd shard]

More testing time, could prove detrimental

[rugged wedge]

I'll try & get an HD 630 and a 7770

[devout pendant]

Blizzard's World Of Warcraft is also a good marketing example.

It has low system requirements, AND it's still able to demand a monthly subscription.

[rugged wedge]

yeah or take Diablo 2 - runs on a literal potato

[shrewd shard]

But those run on older engines

If I'm not mistaken, WoW can run on DX9 PCs still

Targeting your game for Asia, I'd understand, since their market share is around 50% if not more

Targeting latam might just suck money off you

[rugged wedge]

it's not like I have to physically go to latam to target their market

just make sure the game runs on old hardware, done

[devout pendant]

… which shows how many gamers are still running on old hardware.

If a developer can tap into all or some of that demographic, it squeezes out more potential profit.

[shrewd shard]

Yeah, but also we have our lad's cursed problem here that he needs DX12 for async and wave intrinsics

Do you see why it's a cursed problem

[hoary urchin]

https://giphy.com/gifs/moodman-steve-buscemi-looks-good-to-me-cant-see-the-problem-hpAMh2sBYpsmFhSRPI

[shrewd shard]

Targeting DX11 would be enough to let you support a lot more

Targeting DX12 starts to be an issue when a large market share is in the GT/X 700 series

Particularly 750Tis

[rugged wedge]

what's wrong w/ the 700 series?

[shrewd shard]

Not properly supporting DX12

[rugged wedge]

they support dx12, they're just finicky about it

async queues work, wave intrinsics too

it's the edge cases that can get funky, like typed uav loads and out of bound writes

workarounds abound, just have to catch the problem

[shrewd shard]

About 57% of all users on Steam have a GPU that supports proper DX12

And that's only until you reach the highest market share with finnicky support, the 750Ti

After that there's still a lot that have proper support

[novel briar]

Yeah, no. I have similar spec and it took 1700 (almost double) of what is written there. 5950x

[devout pendant]

Look at all that potential profit.

[novel briar]

Hmm... last time I checked it was like 80%+ or so. If not more.

[shrewd shard]

The people that already run low end hardware would be less prone to paying for microtransactions, because they have a reason to be still running that low end hardware

[devout pendant]

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_levels_in_Direct3D

Here's another source of information.

Between the Intel support page on graphics and the data table and this Wikipedia page, you should get a decent idea on where the earliest DX12 support is, on Intel iGPUs.

[devout pendant]

Here is another table (at the bottom of that Wikipedia page) ... reiterates that DX12 support started at 9th gen Skylake.

[devout pendant]

Back to that Intel graphics support page, I think the Intel 6000/5000 iGPU coincides with 8th gen Broadwell.
The table says "DirectX 12" ... but on the other Wikiwand page and Wikipedia page, 8th gen Broadwell had DirectX feature level of 11 ... so I think true DirectX 12 support from Intel started in 9th gen Skylake CPUs (in the year 2015).

[novel briar]

Some effort, lol

[devout pendant]

Well, I'm home from work, and I can actually use a real desktop computer instead of a dinky smartphone, so I can type fast and click fast and use keyboard shortcuts.

[devout pendant]

The cheapest Intel CPU with iGPU that supports DirectX 12 should be a $42 dual-core Celeron.

($42 as of its release date in Q4 2015)

A third grader could probably afford a 2015 Celeron, these days. 😆 joking

Problem is building a PC around it ... finding compatible motherboard that's still around ... RAM ... operating system ... but shouldn't be too hard ... was only six years ago.

All this to maximize compatibility with UE4 DX12.

[devout pendant]

According to Wikipedia, the GTX 770 came-out in 2013.

Intel didn't have DX12 support until 2015.

That might be why nVIDIA's DX12 support on that card is finicky.
nVIDIA probably tried patching with 2015 drivers for a 2013 card ... but probably left some holes or incompatibilities.

[pallid hinge]

There is not a lot of people with 7xx cards left for a reason

[devout pendant]

According to Wikipedia, DX12 support from nVIDIA started with 2nd gen Maxwell.

... 2H 2015 ... coincides with the start of Intel compatibility with DX12.

... oops ... except for those 2014 cards ... probably were patched with drivers in 2015, but had better success than the nVIDIA cards from 2013.

---

Perhaps a better interpretation would be: Microsoft and nVIDIA were in cahoots with each other, hashing-out compatibility with GPU hardware and DX12 software, way back in 2014 ... and Intel? ... was moving at a slow pace.

The cheapest nVIDIA card with full DX12 compatibility would be the GTX 950 for $159 (as of August 2015).

---

... dual-core Celeron and GTX 950 ... two pieces of a cheap original (first generation) DirectX 12 gaming rig. 😆

Now, would Unreal Engine 4 run on that hardware?

That's the question.

[shrewd shard]

The celeron will be an issue

UE4 still likes to run on at least 4 threads

Counting in the rest of the software that would be running, gonna be spiky at the very least

[devout pendant]

Good point.

[devout pendant]

Looking at the Intel 9th gen Skylake data table in Wikipedia ... I guess the cheapest DX12-compatible CPU would be the $182 quad-core Core i5-6400 and variants.
(one thread per core 😆 )
That price would be as of Q3/Q4 2015.

If Unreal Engine 4 absolutely refused to work on a CPU below 2.5 Ghz clock speed, then that would remove the Intel Core i5-6400T.

Intel Core i5-6400 and Intel Core i5-6402P are both above 2.5 Ghz.

Obviously, you can spend more money and have a wider choice of old DX12-compatible CPUs with iGPUs.

[shrewd shard]

I ran UE4 on a dual core laptop CPU long time ago

I will say it lagged like hell tho, absolutely

[devout pendant]

I suppose UE4 won't complain if you run it on a dual-core Intel Celeron or Intel Pentium from 2015 ... but the system requirement for a quad-core at 2.5Ghz or higher ... is more for your own sanity. 😆

[shrewd shard]

Absolutely

At the end of the day UE4 loves singlethread performance more than anything

Running on an 8 core @ 1 GHz will be beyond painful

[devout pendant]

Fortunately, the slowest dual-core Intel with DX12-compatible iGPU shows to run at 2.3Ghz, and the slowest quad-core Intel with DX12-compatible iGPU shows to run at 2.2Ghz, but any other choice of Intel CPU would have faster clock speed.

A UE4 developer would do a lot of afk'ing while testing on an old DX12 gaming rig like that.

Turn it on for the day, walk-away and make breakfast ... come back and start UE4, walk-away and do some work on main PC ... copy a build over LAN/ethernet, alt-tab and do something else while waiting ... etc.

[shrewd shard]

Testing on such old hardware is simply painful

Hell, even my server has trouble running my projects occasionally

(6 core xeon @ 3.6 ghz)

[devout pendant]

Just have to make that kind of time sacrifice to make your UE4 projects compatible with older DX12 hardware. 😃

You would just have to multitask on main PC while compiling or running program/game on older DX12 PC in the background.

I suppose if you just wanted to test if something runs, then you wouldn't need to copy the build ... just copy the EXE and run.

[shrewd shard]

I have 2.5gbps connection between server and PC so I just run off network

Does a good job of emulating running from an HDD too

[rugged wedge]

I already have two test computers besides my main one, it's not a problem at all

you need an actual gpu from each of the IHVs for dx12 development - dx11 is easier, takes care of all the low level details for you

[devout pendant]

... but do you have a DX12 gaming rig with an Intel 9th gen Skylake CPU with iGPU from 2015? 😃

[rugged wedge]

like I said, I'm looking for an intel igpu...

[devout pendant]

I know you are.

[shrewd shard]

If you want to emulate an intel iGPU, try to find an equivalent AMD

[rugged wedge]

doesn't work like that

[shrewd shard]

AMD and Intel perform about equal clock to clock since most the optimizations are from Nvidia

[rugged wedge]

amd and intel gpus are very different

it's not about speed at all

[shrewd shard]

And I can confirm that from my old laptop, Intel HD 4000 and a Radeon HD 7650M

However, it is DX11

That's one thing I'll admit

However, when running benchmarks to compare both, then downclocking the AMD to be equal to the Intel, they performed pretty much equally

[rugged wedge]

like I said, it's not about clock speeds

[devout pendant]

Intel 9th gen Skylake CPU with iGPU from 2015 is as far back as you can go and as old as you can go, for DX12-compatible iGPU from Intel.

Look at the Skylake data table on Wikipedia, then buy one of those CPUs, and build a DX12 gaming rig around it.

Here is a 9th gen Skylake CPU on Amazon.

Intel iGPU = HD 530

Wikipedia said that CPU cost $182 at 2015 release, so the crossed-out $180 coincides with that.

This Intel 9th gen Skylake DUAL-core Pentium is actually more expensive than 2015 MSRP.

Amazon gives a link to the specification PDF ... "recommended customer price = $64" ... haha.

Intel HD 510 iGPU ... one of the earliest supporters of DX12.

The spec sheet for that dual-core Pentium even says:

DirectX Support = 12

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/processors/core/core-technical-resources.html

I believe these are the first Intel CPUs with DX12-compatible iGPUs.

[devout pendant]

eBay seems to have a couple cheap prebuilt PCs.

I looked at one of the descriptions, and the iGPU seems to be one of the early DX12 supporters.

[devout pendant]

NewEgg sells old prebuilt PCs that are DX12-compatible, too. 😆

[rugged wedge]

jesus christ what have I started...

[devout pendant]

I was interested in the answer, too.

I was curious about the oldest DX12-compatible iGPUs, so it was fun doing the research … especially on a desktop computer where I can type fast, click fast, and use keyboard shortcuts.

I'm back to work, now, and I'm on my dinky smartphone, so my typing is reduced to hunting-and-pecking with my thumbs. 😆

Posting screenshots on Discord from a desktop computer is also easier because you can just copy/paste.

On a smartphone, you don't have such luxury/convenience.

[novel briar]

Yeah, GB you should stop poking people around and leaving :D

[fervent jolt]

legend has it that Newbz is still researching the most ancient of DX12 hardware to this day

[devout pendant]

Nah.
I think we have reached the answer to GlassBeaver#5247 's question or dilemma.

He was looking for the oldest Intel iGPU that could run UE4 and that was DX12-compatible.

Now that we know you can buy such a prebuilt PC on eBay or NewEgg, we can all finally move-on with our lives. 😆

[novel briar]

Haha, wait a bit he to come with the next question.

[devout pendant]

In the meantime, let's talk about GDDR6X temperatures. 😆

Does anyone in this discord server own an RTX 3080 or RTX 3090?

[devout pendant]

https://tenor.com/view/night-crickets-chirping-silent-gif-5280277

… guess not. 😆

[hoary urchin]

Ya

And I don't monitor my gpu temps lol @devout pendant

[devout pendant]

lol … probably better that way.

As the saying goes, ignorance is bliss. 😃

[tropic stratus]

yooo does anyone know of a gpu thatll beat the 3090 coming out? like when? does anyone know? im trying to build a system to last like 3 yeears well should i just get 3090?

[devout pendant]

The next Intel and AMD CPUs will have the same sockets for three generations … so it's easier to answer your question for CPUs.

… but for GPUs, AMD wants to go MCM (multi chip module) while nVIDIA wants to do one more monolithic die before they go MCM, so it's complicated.

[fervent jolt]

yeah just get a 3090. make sure spend at least $6000 on an ebay bidding war for it or it might not be legit

[devout pendant]

[devout pendant]

https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-ad102-lovelace-gpu-rumored-to-offer-up-to-18432-cuda-cores

We have rumors, but no concrete evidence.

[rugged wedge]

https://www.newegg.com/hp-slimline-290-p0046/p/1VK-001E-3XAY4?Item=9SIAKVUDXF9803&Description=Intel UHD 630&cm_re=Intel_UHD 630-_-9SIAKVUDXF9803-_-Product

https://www.amazon.com/Sapphire-Radeon-PCI-Express-Graphics-11201-25-20G/dp/B00I668566

I wonder if these are compatible

wrt dimensions

[devout pendant]

https://hothardware.com/news/nvidia-geforce-rtx-3080-ti-launch-999

This is a cross between a rumor and a fact. 😆

[obsidian oak]

Anyone has any clue how to get nvidia shadowplay to record a specific screen when not in a game?

It always records the wrong screen for me

[hoary urchin]

@obsidian oak please do not post into multiple channels

[obsidian oak]

@hoary urchin Sure! Sorry, realized there was a better one for that and forgot to delete old 😓

[unborn pike]

still waiting for my goddamn GPU

goddamn MSI and their ventus OC line

I wonder if they even manufacture them anymore

[novel briar]

You wanted it cheap, so it is wait game I guess 🙂

[devout pendant]

Your MSI Ventus is in this Chinese shipping package. 😃

[unborn pike]

it's not sadly

those are 3080 Ti with 12 GB memory

what I got was just a plain ol' 3080 with 10 GB memory

[hoary urchin]

plain ol 3080 lol

like its a bad card 😄

im happy with my plain ol 3080

got it at good price (actual MSRP)

[devout pendant]

Intel and TSMC are building fabs in Phoenix, Arizona.

Once they are finished, they should help CPU/GPU production.

I think Intel's discrete gamer GPU card will be released in late-2021 or early-2022, so that will help relieve some of the pressure (a.k.a. "demand").

[novel briar]

Oh, pulling production from Asia.

[devout pendant]

… at least, "adding" production to Asia.

The world needs all fabrication facilities online and working together.

[novel briar]

They speak for quite some time to be a bit more independent from Asia. Ultimately, yeah adds resources.

[devout pendant]

I saw some news about 🇺🇸 The U.S. starting its own rare earth metals mining/refinement.

Those are used by electronics industries.

Currently, 🇨🇳 China has 80% of the world's market share for rare earth metal mining/refinement, and there should be more balance in the world.

[novel briar]

Yes, what oil is for the Middle East, that's electronics for Asia.

[safe apex]

hey all,
I'm looking for a Graphic Tablet to start sculpting and modelling with blender,
now im wondering a few things:
*Should i get 1 with or without a screen
*Should i look for specific futures when i look in the product description

Budget is about 250-300 dollars

[devout pendant]

http://youtu.be/xV_R8KDr4s0

😆

[hoary urchin]

http://www.thegames.dev/snaps/opera_kAxsftlQx6.png

o_0

[devout pendant]

stylized hard-tubed open-case gaming rig? 😆

I was going to guess "steam punk" style, but I think a true steam punk rig could do better than that.

It just looks like a transparent style with hard tubes (as opposed to soft tubes).

http://youtu.be/gaKMywnji-A
Apple Event in 60 seconds (by Linus Media Group)

http://youtu.be/wtFtaAoxiEw
Apple Event in 5 minutes by Wall Street Journal

https://allaboutstevejobs.com/resources/img/pics/1999-01-05_01363.jpg

iMacs have come a long way.

[devout pendant]

This is a reply to an old question.

I posted a picture of rumor/speculation on the next nV GPU, but this photo was released officially, so this roadmap is official, not rumor/speculation.

[devout pendant]

.

[timber cobalt]

Hi, I would like to ask for some advice for a build.
Here is the link for it : https://pcpartpicker.com/list/dfdhwz
Only difference is there would 2x16GB RAM in it and not 4x8.
Because of the crazy GPU prices I will put my current RX580 in that. Definitely a bottleneck, but it would be way out of my budget, and it is fine right now.
What do you think? Pro-Con?
Thanks!

[novel briar]

Maybe that cooler will be enough, but not sure. Also if you plan to add later a better gpu, consider bigger PSU?

[timber cobalt]

I checked a psu calculator and I dropped a 3090 to the list and I got around 480W

but would not hurt to choose a 600-650W for sure, that is true

the cooler is a good point. My friend has a Ryzen 5 3600X and he has that cooler. I liked it because it was pretty silent. But totally forget to check if it is good for a 9 3900. That is a good point. I will look into it, thanks!

Some articles say it should be enough for it, but better to have a stronger one.

[novel briar]

If 3090 is rated like 350 w (as far I remember) and your CPU socket am4 is like 140w, then that's yeah ~500w.

However, you have and other components, plus I'm really not sure whether these are rated for how much they provide or consume.

Because that's another, say 20%

I also remember that for 3090 they just recommended like 750+

[timber cobalt]

i used that page to calculate it : https://outervision.com/power-supply-calculator

To be honest I do not think I will have a 3090 soon or ever :D

[novel briar]

It tells like ~600w

I mean, you can always swap later the PSU, but if you see a good option - take one a bit bigger.

[timber cobalt]

It can be I remember wrong and I dropped different GPU as a placeholder one, because yeah, I got 600W now as well. Brainfart

[novel briar]

These are insurance numbers. Sometimes there are spikes of drain and etc. Consider how, future-proof you wanna build it and ofc, the cost.

[timber cobalt]

Fortunately the price difference between a a 550W or 650W as not crazy

[timber cobalt]

That is true, and always good to have some headroom.

[novel briar]

Otherwise, it looks good build. Tho, if you don't have separate storage, I would just swap one of the nvme's with something big which can serve as storage / backup and etc. Slow, but big and cheap.

[timber cobalt]

I have a 1 TB HDD and I will build in it, also a 2TB NAS

[novel briar]

If you are doing UE work, these GB evaporate fast.

1 TiB would be the minimum

[timber cobalt]

the 1TB one is basically for UE

[novel briar]

For one project + few examples around it, seems fine 😉

[timber cobalt]

I have these two already, so I just drop them to the new PC

[novel briar]

Oke 👍

[timber cobalt]

but yeah, I agree. Our project is around 550GB already

[novel briar]

Just saying from my experience. I do have also 1 TiB for UE projects and assets around it. However, it is not enough for backups and keeping around originals and etc. For that I have separate 4 TiB external hdd

[timber cobalt]

Fortunately we have git for backup, so I am not crazy about it

[novel briar]

You need LFS for that.

[timber cobalt]

but good to backup all the work files as well

yup, git lfs indeed

fortunately I am not the one who has to make git work :P

Thanks for the sanity check on it!

[devout pendant]

Cheap large-capacity HDDs would be good for scratch disks.
I agree.

[devout pendant]

It's safer to aim higher on the wattage number, for your PSU ... and add UPS for insurance.

The PSU will perform at that % (according to the chart) ... and then drop %, slowly, over time.

---

PSUs do not perform at 100% of the wattage advertised ... due to electrical conversion inefficiencies.

[shrewd shard]

I recently installed a water cooler on my friend's 3900X

I believe it was the Cougar Helor 240

With a slight undervolt it doesn't go above 70°

However that cooler might be over budget as I believe it's one of the higher end 240s

[frank glade]

I think nvidia recommends 750W for the 3090, and some 3090 models with triple cables draw 420W+

[novel briar]

https://tenor.com/view/electric-super-powers-controlling-electricity-streaks-flashes-gif-14629796

[timber cobalt]

3090 was only a placeholder GPU, and I honestly do not think I would have one in the next 2 years :D

[devout pendant]

... and the next AMD and nVIDIA GPUs will be here, next year. 😆

[kind talon]

You definitely want at a min a 750W with the 3090

Especially if you mix it with a high end CPU

(my setup during heavy load gets damn close to a 750W PSU)

And just note that you don't want to get "just enough" you want enough headroom that you're getting the best power delivery, especially with the standard 80 Plus PSU's

[devout pendant]

Can't beat a five-egg rating. 😃

[shrewd shard]

450$

[devout pendant]

12-year warranty = reliable PSU that lasts for 12 years

[devout pendant]

[devout pendant]

Seriously, though ... try the 850-watt PSU ... might be cheaper ... probably has same high rating ... probably has similar years-long warranty. 😆

[shrewd shard]

But can I at least power 2 PCs with the 1000W

[devout pendant]

I don't see high-end CPUs and GPUs using less and less electricity, going into the future.

The fab will get smaller and smaller … but Intel and AMD and nVIDIA will just cram more cores onto the same die.

If we switch to photonic transistors, then that would drastically drop power draw and heat dissipation … but that's an "if" and maybe a "when".

[shrewd shard]

Currently my server and my gaming PC don't go above 700W from the wall including monitors so that's why I'm curious

[devout pendant]

Rocket Lake draws a lot of power and generates a lot of heat.

Intel actually co-released a peltier plate based CPU cooler.

I personally interpret that as foreshadowing for the future.

I personally also pray to the semiconductor gods that Alder Lake runs cooler than Rocket Lake.

[devout pendant]

(best climate to own an Intel gaming rig in, with any GDDR6X card) 😆😆

[devout pendant]

Intel's Cryo Cooling technology

Why is this even a thing?

Intel is preparing for the future, that's why. 🤣🤣

[wind egret]

Last time I heard about something like that, condensation came up.

[devout pendant]

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/processors/core/cryo-cooling.html
Straight from the mouth of the blue beast itself.

[wind egret]

It considers workloads, user risk tolerance, and environmental conditions in real time.

[devout pendant]

Yes, that's why this CPU cooler has a sensor for dew point, so it stays away from condensation.

[wind egret]

Intel, what is the humidity?

Damnit Intel, even when I'm trying to mock and joke.

Will it come with its battery / UPS for that extra bit of boost voltage?

[devout pendant]

That's my point.

Intel is actually putting effort into peltier plate cooling, and making it viable … sensors and chipsets and firmware and everything.

[wind egret]

...while you can choose to boost performance even more or minimize the condensation risk.
Option A: Minimize condensation risk.
Option B: Don't minimize condensation risk.

[devout pendant]

The user can choose different settings, in Windows.

You can choose a safe setting, or you can go all out, balls to the wall, max power draw and risk of condensation.

Der Bauer made a video.
I'll try to find the link.

[devout pendant]

http://youtu.be/uOrUNT_0XVY

[wind egret]

Meh, I'll just soak my motherboard in polyurethane, thank you.

...Wonder if PU would bubble from the overclocking.

[devout pendant]

You know about 3M Novec?

[devout pendant]

http://youtu.be/YyKIZPuepl8

[wind egret]

I've heard of it. First time I've heard it's "environmentally-friendly"

[devout pendant]

You can read the MSDS, if you want.

[wind egret]

"May cause drowsiness or dizziness." Not exactly the specific organ toxicity I expected. ...Is it an alcohol?

Maybe an alcohol diluted in something besides water.

[devout pendant]

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/data-center-us/applications/immersion-cooling/#3Mfluids

[wind egret]

Yummy flourine. Wonder if it could be used for lightweight cooling. In space. Coolant leak! (Come to think of it, why is coolant in sci-fi always cold?)

[devout pendant]

The exact chemical composition can't really be disclosed, due to industry competition.

Maybe an industry insider would have a better idea on what's in it or how it's made.

[wind egret]

Mostly I'm suspicious of any industry declaring something to be safe. It's none of my business, just wary skepticism adopted as a rule.

Besides that, I'd expect there to be more of a market for it than for Intel's peltier cooling. Accepting condensation as a "risk" sounds absurd for ordinary overclocking. Maybe someone equivocated it with the supposed risk that overclocking burns out hardware.

[devout pendant]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novec_649/1230
I found this Wikipedia article from Google … and at the bottom of that article, there is a link to the fluorinert article which is related to 3M Novec.

I'm actually not sure how similar or different Fluorinert and Novec are to each other.

---

To play devil's advocate and put myself in 3M's shoes … if I were a mega-corporation, and I wanted to commercialize a product to as many enterprise customers and consumers as possible (for maximum profitability), then I better make sure this product is as safe as possible, lest I face lawsuits, further down the line.

lawsuits/settlements = detrimental to reputation and corporate profitability

[frank glade]

Do you guys have any suggestions for simple cloud storage? I just want some work folders to auto sync in the background

[devout pendant]

You want storage that's accessible from home and while away from home?

… and would 1TB be sufficient for your needs?

[frank glade]

Hmm only from home

At least 2TB i think

[devout pendant]

I own a CalDigit two-HDD RAID.

Not sure if CalDigit still sells them, but I'm sure you could find a RAID setup for mirrored/redundant backup of your files.

[frank glade]

Hmm interesting. Does it have an auto sync app?

I use an icybox in raid, but its just like an external hdd and I have to backup manually daily

Im looking for a set and forget solution

[devout pendant]

I only backup my files once per year. 😆

Someone else here might know of a good [local software] solution or a good [remote cloud] solution for you.

[frank glade]

Ah thanks!

[fervent jolt]

syncback if you just want to automate overnight local copy backups... otherwise, sounds like you just want any of the common services. dropbox, sync.com, box.com

[novel briar]

Any ideas of why a PC sometimes won't boot after wake up from sleep? Like even shut down does not help, I need to drain up the whole PSU, which resets the BIOS too, so it can boot.

[thin mist]

That sounds mental

Might be worth checking the event viewer @novel briar

See if Windows gives you a halfway informative log entry

[novel briar]

Can't see anything relevant. Basically, it is either events at 00:00 o'clock which is after the the successful boot, but reset BIOS, or just some generic events and issues.

Nothing specific caught my eye. So, it might be a lower level issue if Windows is not catching up.

[devout pendant]

In the meantime, can you prevent Windows from going to sleep? ... ever?

Maybe just turn the screensaver on, after some amount of minutes ... and/or turn-off the monitor after some amount of minutes.

[thin mist]

Or just switch to hibernation, if you're not already

That should be pretty solid

[novel briar]

Hibernate is not available.

Sleep is what I intentionally use, lol.

It does not happen always. Maybe like once in 10 times.

Something else which got screwed after the last sw updates is that my monitor goes off even when a video is playing. The power settings seems correct for that not to happen, but it still does.

[devout pendant]

There is a possibility that something in your motherboard is not working correctly.

In my previous ASRock motherboard, some SATA ports were not working, and some USB ports stopped working, over time.

[shrewd shard]

You can enable hibernate specifically

I believe the shutdown by default acts like hibernate that turns off all programs prior

You have to explicitly enable the hibernate option for it to save everything as if it was sleeped

[novel briar]

Hibernate is not available. EDIT: found it, lol

And yeah, likely a low level issue which I don't know even how to figure out.

[devout pendant]

Do you have UPS / battery backup attached?

[novel briar]

No.

I was thinking that if during sleep, there was a power outage (which happens regularly) maybe it bugs off the system.

However, it does not explain why it does turn on and blinks and etc, but does not want to boot up in windows.

[devout pendant]

… then my next guess is that various power outages and power surges have screwed-up the circuitry on your motherboard.

Voltage regulators and capacitors can only buffer so much electrical chaos coming from the mains outlet in your home.

[novel briar]

I was thinking for some small(?) battery anyway due to that. Might be also a good way to check whether it is related.

My PSU is 1 kw, so I need to find something fitting for it.

Need just a minute or two.

[devout pendant]

I am guessing that Windows checks a jumper or interrupt value coming from the motherboard, but perhaps the motherboard doesn't return the correct value back to the operating system.

[novel briar]

No clue. Mobos are madness. More to debug.

Because Sleep drains some power, other option is to see whether Hibernate can handle that issue 🤔

[devout pendant]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/computer-science/sleeping-state
ACPI sleep state interrupt values coming from the motherboard, etc

[novel briar]

Interesting, but it arises more questions and possibilities.

Even if completely drained from power, it should boot as just after shut down.

[devout pendant]

https://windowsreport.com/pc-wont-exit-sleep-mode/

I just googled something random.

Not sure if that will fix your problem or not.

[novel briar]

Thanks. Haven't found something which I can do from these. Maybe to try disable the peripheral power supply from the BIOS during sleep.

Drivers and SW are up to date. Imma not installing some magic driver fix for sure and the rest where kinda are not applicable or I have tried.

[thin mist]

Hibernate indeed needs to be enabled specifically if you want it iirc, but it's a lot more stable

Worth trying

[novel briar]

Yeah, regretfully it is workaround and is slower due to the full reboot and ram loading.

[devout pendant]

Your Ventus OC is being sold-off in 🇵🇱 Poland.

[lucid cedar]

Hey guys, can someone recommend a good laptop for UE4 Development up to 1500 eur? I'm living in germany

[lucid cedar]

It's not scalling. Alienware m15 costs 1500 usd and here it's 1800-1900 eur

[devout pendant]

Get the best laptop you can buy, for 1500€. 😃

i5 8GB RAM vs i7 16GB RAM … I would go with the better specs.

Just have to shop-around for the best deal and best value.

[lucid cedar]

Another issue is that it's really hard to find a laptop with qwerty keyboard

But thanks!

[devout pendant]

NewEgg laptops should have qwerty keyboards … but I am not sure if they will ship to 🇩🇪 Germany.

[frank glade]

Did yoy look at bestware.com?

[steep cairn]

I am in the market for a new monitor after 12 years. I think I am after a 27inch 4k gaming monitor that displays text clearly, something that when I demo my work also looks good

[devout pendant]

https://www.notebookcheck.net/LG-s-first-32-inch-and-4K-OLED-monitor-gets-a-release-date-and-an-eye-watering-price-tag.526414.0.html
OLED tends to have the best picture quality.

nVIDIA has been pushing 360Hz gsync monitors, for pro gamers ... not sure if OLED can refresh that fast, though.
I haven't done the research.

[steep cairn]

Ouch I don't have that for a screen

I thought an lg 27gn950 if they were for sale

[devout pendant]

LCDs are cheaper than OLEDs.

They range from 60Hz to 360Hz.

I use a cheap refurbished 1080p LCD from NewEgg, and I can view fonts just fine.

Turning-on the "true type font" setting helps, with regards to visibility/readability.

[vivid skiff]

If it's two 4 GB RAM sticks, they are dual channel.

[devout pendant]

If it's DDR5 RAM, then yes. lol

Intel desktop motherboards are typically dual-channel, while AMD is typically quad-channel, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[devout pendant]

That is true, too.

If you have two 4GB sticks, it's dual channel.

In an AMD board,
two = dual channel
four = quad channel

In an Intel board,
the RAM will be dual channel no matter what.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Regardless of your question, DDR5 RAM will be dual-channel per stick, and each stick will have a voltage regulator (instead of the motherboard having the RAM voltage regulator).

I think it is best to split your RAM evenly among all the RAM slots your board has … like RAID striping for SSDs (as one analogy).

If I lived in your home, then yes, I would know you're on a laptop … but (fortunately) I do not live with you. 😆

Some people have no computer … so consider yourself lucky. 😆

[shrewd shard]

HD 3000

Does that one even support DX11?

[green flame]

Hey guys

I'm new

Should i get a gtx1650ti or a 2070 on a budget

[shrewd shard]

2070 is better in every case

But also I'd consider what you'll have to downgrade to get one

Also do keep in mind the situation with GPUs is horrific, prices are marked up a lot

[shrewd shard]

Checked and it doesn't support SM5, so the DX11 implementation is shady at best

[green flame]

Thanks @shrewd shard

[devout pendant]

You might be more-likely to get a GPU, if you buy a pre-built gaming rig on one of those PC build websites.

[green flame]

I'm kinda looking for a reasonable laptop for college

For 3d animation and rendering

[upper shuttle]

yo

newegg shuffle ends in 1 hour

https://www.newegg.com/product-shuffle

[acoustic aurora]

I didn’t see a shuffle on Twitter today?

[analog wraith]

Anyone using one of the Ryzen laptops with 5800h or 5900hx cpu? Wondering if the shader compiling etc is as good as I'd expect based on the synthetic benchmarks I've seen

Currently running a laptop with i7 9750h

[devout pendant]

Hello what specs do you use ,im thinking about buying a machine

Hello

[upper shuttle]

im trying to get one of those 3090s in the shuffle

[devout pendant]

http://youtu.be/ToTWaZtGOj8

GDDR6X VRAM runs hot.
Derp.

It's common knowledge that the lower your temps, the longer your semiconductors will last. 😐

... and if nVIDIA did not design their founders edition cards with adequate cooling ... means that they want all your GDDR6X cards to fail sooner than they would have otherwise failed ... so that you are more-likely to buy their next generation cards!

Genius!

#ConspiracyTheories

[rain summit]

Does UE development (blueprint only) benefit a lot with increased cores?
For example:
Ryzen 5 5600X (6 cores, 12 threads), $300
vs
Ryzen 9 5900X (12 cores, 24 threads), $550
Trying to justify if the price is worth the benefits

[devout pendant]

https://hwbench.com/cpus/amd-ryzen-5-5600x-vs-amd-ryzen-9-5900x

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/AMD-Ryzen-5-5600X-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-5900X/3859vs3870

The second website has this comparison, but not sure how it is calculated.

https://benchmarks.ul.com/compare/best-cpus?search=5600X

https://benchmarks.ul.com/compare/best-cpus?search=5900X

[rain summit]

Yeah, I read 5600X has better price/performance but I wouldn't mind paying more for 5900X if I knew that I would greatly benefit UE development (which seems to be if UE developing benefits from more cores/threads)
I don't really do anything else, maybe light gaming, so it's really just going to be UE development

[wind egret]

PiE framerate or shader compilation/light baking?

[shrewd shard]

Shader compilation always benefits from extra threads

Project packaging benefits from more too

[analog wraith]

the real trick is finding a 5900x for $550

I would definitely recommend it of you can. I've got a machine with the 3900x 12 core and I love it

[rain summit]

How often does shader compilation, light baking, and project packaging happen?
Like if it's just one big wait time but it happens very infrequently that it's fine
Or if it happens every time you go to play mode

[devout pendant]

@rain summit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NXJjY_fCkQ I watched this video when I wanted info about the 5k series

although honestly I don't know about pros/cons for blueprints

and the video isn't about blueprints either

[rain summit]

Interesting video
Yeah, he did mention "compiling code, build lighting, packaging a project, and recompiling shaders" as things that benefit from more multi-threaded
Just wondering how often those actually happen in normal development

[rotund moth]

@rain summit The more cores the better. I have a 3900X 12-core and I am very happy with it! It's been a game-changer for me.

I make Blueprint-only games, too, and the number of cores in my CPU comes in handy frequently.

Compiling materials, Niagara systems, and building lighting are all things I do pretty frequently, and they all benefit significantly from more cores.

[shrewd shard]

When you get to making more complex materials, the extra cores absolutely help

But even then it's beneficial if you have faster build/package times for testing

[kind talon]

Certainly worth it for the extra cores imo
It won't benefit you in your blueprint work (editor side) nor cooking but light baking, pak-ing and shader compilation will definitely be majorly improved!
Also will come in handy if you need to work on consoles later down the line as you'll need to compile engine source!

[novel briar]

Damn, my bios reset each other week. Like, aren't there batteries anymore in the mobos?

[devout pendant]

Compounded with your earlier problem, sounds like you need to buy a new motherboard. 😆

[novel briar]

This is the new one.

[shrewd shard]

What do you mean a new one reset its bios

Sounds faulty af

[devout pendant]

Are you using a UPS/battery setup?
It's supposed to protect against power surges and power outages.
You should activate your motherboard warranty, and get a replacement.

[novel briar]

Well, the bios resets after Wake up from Sleep, like 1 in 20 times. And this time the reset was after a power outage.

Point is, my previous mobo never did such things. Instead, it was waking up from Sleep randomly.

[devout pendant]

[wind egret]

Obligatory "those are the best odds I've had in years"

That number, of course, disregards that many people get a chance each Shuffle, as multiple GPUs, motherboards and other components are available each time.
In other words, the title lies.

[wet ore]

what does classify files do in samsung magician and why would I want to do it to my SSD? can't find any info online and maybe someone here knows.
sorry and please let me know if this is too unrelated of an unreal question

[devout pendant]

SSDs, in general, need wear-leveling … but that can be performed on a hardware/firmware level.

Maybe Samsung has a small software layer, on top of the hardware layer.
Not sure.

[novel briar]

Any good 5950x temperature vs fan guides? Someone up mentioned they stick to always 50% cpu fan all the time. I kinda target more quiet mode, regretfully the CPU spikes to 60-65 degrees all the time: opening some web pages, or just previewing stuff in UE and etc. Currently I'm playing with this setup:

[shrewd shard]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/665720029274177560/838032431377285150/unknown.png

Steve and Steve at it again

[fallen spindle]

And a Sprite

[obsidian berry]

Like the drink?

I mean of course the drink

Pardon my stupidity

[unborn pike]

@novel briar mine is like an exponential cure, less than 50% fan speed for temps lower than 60 C I think

hits max at 85C

or 80 C

can't be bothered to check right now, the settings are on BIOS side 😄

[novel briar]

haha, fair enough

I came up with this so far.

Point being that when I run UE it stays like 62-65 and is low noise.

[unborn pike]

yea same

my fan speeds up when I run some heavy single threaded stuff

[novel briar]

The standard profile, the one posted up, is kinda quite heavy at that point and it just saves like 3 degrees.

[unborn pike]

because then the single core boosts go sky high

with air coolers the fan speed isn't going to do much if the metal cooling block is large enough

the heat just doesn't transfer fast enough in it

[novel briar]

Yeah, Noctua 15h lite

Its big.

On that setting up, normal operating mode is like 50-60% fan speed for the range of 40 to 70 degrees.

Not sure about the upper bound of 70, kinda feel like putting down it down to 65 or so... but damn if I know how much it matters at the end. These CPUs are quite jumpy.

[unborn pike]

rebuilding my ue 4 game solution and my temps stayed lower than 70 C and fan speed was less than 650 RPM

now in "normal" use the temps are like 41 C and fan speed is 300 RPM

[novel briar]

Hmm.... much, much lower than mine RPMs.

So, at 40 degrees, 50% it is ~900 RPMs. It is silent as the Case's fans.

[unborn pike]

well I did aim for quietness 😄

loudest thing in my PC is now my old HDDs with spinning disks in them

[novel briar]

I might play around more with the fans then. Kinda scared to put say fans on 20% or 350 RPM. Are you also using Noctua 15?

[unborn pike]

noctua nh-d15 chromax.black

which I think is a bit bigger than the lite one?

half the size?

Anyway, I just ran some prime95 torture tests and made sure that peak temps stabilized below 85 C

and those torture tests are like the worst case scenario power draw wise 😄

you aren't going to hit similar temps in other use

[novel briar]

The 2 thread case?

[unborn pike]

yea I think so, one or two

that way you get highest single core boost clocks

should hit something like 4.8-5 GHz

with crazy temps

[novel briar]

I think I also stayed like 80-something back on the old profile, but that's already on max fans so nothing to be done. Apart from adjusting the case's fans.

I might play around a bit to reduce even further the noise later 🙂

[devout pendant]

I have a cheap Dell/Alienware PC from Best Buy (because my custom rig broke), but it has Alienware software that controls RGB and fan speeds.

I would screenshot the fan speed curves/controls, but I am at work for another seven hours.

[novel briar]

Thanks. I think the type of CPU is kinda relevant in this case though. I'm searching for nice balance between noise and coolness. So far it seems that it is quite normal 5950x to jump down & up from 40+ to 60+ celsius on regular basis.

[unborn pike]

ffs no BMP support for discord?

gah

https://i.imgur.com/EYySV1R.png

https://i.imgur.com/wubbYql.png

there you can see where the CPU fan is at

the red dot on the graph

[novel briar]

Wow, your curve is even steeper 🙂

Interesting.

Good to know, thanks 👍

[willow pollen]

hello

I need a suggestion about building a PC for developing games and playing games

[unborn pike]

3090 RTX and AMD 5950X

[willow pollen]

r u comdey me

[devout pendant]

TSMC uses AMD EPYC CPUs, but TSMC doesn't play computer games on their hardware.

[shrewd shard]

These days, a good enough gaming PC is also good enough working PC

It's not like the older days where a gaming PC has fewer cores and you need extreme amounts of money to get more than 4 cores

Getting something well balanced by your budget should suffice

The only thing I'd highly recommend is maybe skewing on the side of more RAM and a larger (or additional) SSD that would have your development things

[devout pendant]

I am personally a big fan of more RAM.

[devout pendant]

The CPU fan and side fan settings let you choose "auto manage", "offset", or "smooth line/curve" ... and you can just move the marker or dots at various fan speeds and temperatures, yourself.

[devout pendant]

http://youtu.be/oflOxrZKEJg

[devout pendant]

http://youtu.be/iEbKHtTM3eY

(3090 & 5950X both in that PC / video)

[muted holly]

just copying/pasting what i typed in the wrong channel

so im running two p6000 gpu and thinking of upgrading to the
rtx6000
has anyone ever ran two differnt video cards ? or should i just go for two rtx

[scarlet solar]

https://www.amazon.com/Razer-Blade-Base-Gaming-Laptop/dp/B08SJDNLV8

Worth it?

[hoary urchin]

its ok for the price

screen a bit small for UE Dev tho

[scarlet solar]

Recommended screen size?

[unborn pike]

large

[shrewd shard]

More screen

Try to find a 1440p screen if possible

It's such a huge improvement for any work

[vivid skiff]

"1080p ought to be enough for everyone."

[blazing spire]

Hey quick, possibly stupid question. would it be possible to overload a pcie 4 x4 with a gtx 1080, 2 ssds, and 1 Hdd? just seems like so few lanes to the chipset.

[shrewd shard]

The chipset gets 4 lanes, the first PCIe slot gets 16 lanes, the first NVMe SSD gets 4 lanes too I believe

On mobos with a second NVMe support, the lanes are slashed to 2x2

Which makes them slower

Or alternatively chipsets lose their bandwidth to get the second SSD at full speed at the cost of ports not working (usually SATAs)

Depends on the exact setup you're getting

But if 1 SSD is NVMe and the other is SATA, both will work at full speed

Also most HDDs will be happy enough to run at SATA 2 instead of 3, they don't take up much bandwidth

With a GTX 1080, 1 NVMe, 1 SATA SSD and 1 SATA HDD, everything should be working full speed

[blazing spire]

I should have been more specific, i am in the second pcie slot with my gpu and the ssd is also in the second slot. both simply because my cpu fan blocks access to them. i didn't realize they took different paths at the time.

[shrewd shard]

Most motherboards have an x8 electrical connection for the second slot

And also, the second NVMe slot should generally cause issues even if the first NVMe slot isn't filled

Issues like aforementioned ports being turned off

The x8 shouldn't be an issue for a 1080 but still can be sub-optimal performance since the 1080 will run at PCIe 3, not 4

[blazing spire]

so having an ssd in the second x4 slot will cause the x8 to turn off?

[shrewd shard]

I don't think it should

But that's a really tricky situation you got

That CPU block better be hella worth it if you have to move such major components around like that

It can still be hard since the first x16 slot is a direct link to the CPU and is hella fast

Every other slot beyond the first can depend on the mobo manufacturer after that

Some manufacturers enable the x2 config, some have only x4 or SATA

[blazing spire]

sounds like i should just replace the cpu fan

i want another ssd anyways!

thank you for the information!

[shrewd shard]

I've worked with a few mobos when I was still in retail and I've had a few situations with people using second slots with no consideration

But each person would have a different issue

Some graphics cards didn't even start if they're in the second instead of first slot

And the first slot is empty

I think that was for older hardware however, can't be sure now

[blazing spire]

I have consistent gpu crashes on almost every game i play

[shrewd shard]

Use first slots unless they're already filled with something

[blazing spire]

i thought my gpu was just ruined 😂

[shrewd shard]

Otherwise you'll be facing weird bottlenecks

It's possible the crashes are from that

But unless you're using a workstation grade mobo, the second slot is x8 at most

[blazing spire]

yeah it's x8

[shrewd shard]

I have my server GPU at my most bottom slot because it's still x16, but only because I have a bunch of expansion cards covered up otherwise

But for consumer mobos, that can and most probably will be an issue

[blazing spire]

well if I'm understanding right its x8 to the chipset along with all the drives. and x4 from there

[shrewd shard]

I'm not familiar with how it works for the x8, I only know that for the love of god use first slots

Sometimes if there's a second GPU the CPU will split 2x8 for the GPUs

But if there's just a second GPU it depends on mobo by mobo, sometimes even CPU

I can't be sure

It's tricky because it's only caused problems in my experience

[blazing spire]

alright thank you for the help, i am definitely going to get it back in that other slot!

[devout pendant]

I've looked in a couple of my motherboard manuals, and I have seen sections where it describes what speeds will be used at various layouts ... like if you install this in this slot, install that in that slot, etc.

[devout pendant]

That's a screenshot of an Asus Intel Z590 motherboard manual.

It tells you what speeds you get at what slot configurations, and tells you what bus the M.2 slot(s) use.

---

I am not 100% sure, but with these new CPUs that come with 20 lanes of PCIe … it helps your GPU keep 16 lanes all to itself, in most configurations (or maybe all configurations).

I've heard that we can't saturate the PCIe v3 bus … but … Intel and AMD are also coming-out with PCIe v5 … and new GPUs and new SSDs will be pushing PCIe v3 to its limits … so actions speak louder than words … when Intel and AMD are about to roll-out PCIe v5 support, next year.

[shrewd shard]

RX 5000+ ran more than marginally better on PCIe 4

But for a PCIe 3, most of those GPUs (except I believe a Titan V) shouldn't be bottlenecked by bandwidth

[devout pendant]

Even if a new GPU and new NVMe SSD (together) do not saturate the PCIe v3 bus … PCIe v4 and PCIe v5 do increase bandwidth or speed of data throughput … so a new GPU and new NVMe SSD could both use the bus, at the same time, and also take advantage of the faster bus speed.

The way I see it, a freeway could have three lanes, and two lanes could be full of cars, driving at 60mph (not saturated).

The freeway could be expanded to five lanes, and the speed limit could be increased to 85mph.
The freeway would still not be saturated, but the cars would be traveling faster and reaching their destinations sooner.

[shrewd shard]

There's a reason they're literally called lanes

In the case of PCIe 2 vs 3 vs 4, you have a set number of lanes

However, they run at 5 vs 10 vs 16 gbps

Doesn't matter how much of them is really saturated, the lane is taken up either way

There was some PCIe bifurcation support, but it's on very limited motherboards (usually workstation grade)

Actually bifurcation splits lanes (e.g. 16 lanes into 2x8)

But I don't think there's anything that supports converting, say PCIe 4 x8 to PCIe 3 x16

[devout pendant]

It seems like GPUs will always have 16 lanes.

It's just a new/recent improvement for CPUs to have enough lanes to allow the GPU to have 16 lanes, all to itself, regardless of what other devices you have plugged-in to the motherboard.
Probably old news for AMD and new news for Intel, but I am just a regular joe schmo consumer, not an industry insider.
I only learn about things when I google them, not as they happen in the industry.

As for SSDs, they have been getting more and more lanes made available to them, over the years.

GPUs have had 16 lanes allocated for a long time … dropped to x8/x8 (in the past) … or x16 (currently).

Lanes given to SSDs seem to be increasing, however.
AMD and Intel probably give them lanes based on what's out on the mainstream consumer market, at the time.

The industry and market are dynamic … always adapting.

DDR5 will have voltage regulators on-DIMM, so that probably put less voltage pressure on motherboards to help allow for PCIe v5 sooner (assuming AMD and Intel both release PCIe v5 CPUs by next year).

Microsoft DirectStorage and RTX IO will also be a thing (in the future) … another process using the PCIe bus.

AMD's S.A.M. (resizable B.A.R. support on all platforms) also uses the PCIe bus.

GPUs and SSDs will be sharing the bus with CPUs accessing GPU VRAM and GPUs accessing SSDs.

There is going to be a lot of action on that bus. 😆

[shrewd shard]

PCIe 5 can't come fast enough

[devout pendant]

I'm worried about cooling.

more devices/components + faster devices/components = higher power draw = more heat generation

[blazing spire]

I'm worried about cost! pcie4 mobos are already quite pricey

[devout pendant]

Start working-out, so you can find a sugar mama.

[devout pendant]

A good case-in-point is GDDR6X.

It's not certified by JEDEC, but Micron developed GDDR6X anyway, and nVIDIA is using it in the 3080, 3080 ti, and 3090.

Not sure if the RTX 3070 ti will be using GDDR6X or not.

Ever since HWiNFO added memory junction temperature reading in late-January ...
https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/l5bwnv/hwinfo_642_adds_memory_junction_temperature_read/
... the high temps reached (from some gaming and most crypto-mining) in GDDR6X VRAM shows the point ... the point that new technology is fast, maybe has larger data bandwidth, but generates a lot of heat.

PCIe 5 ➡️ PCIe 6 ➡️ PCIe 7

GDDR6 ➡️ GDDR7 ➡️ GDDR8

DDR4 ➡️ DDR5 ➡️ DDR6

SSDs not needing any heatsinks on the controller ➡️ NVMe SSDs reaching high speeds and needing heatsinks and fans on the controller and memory chips

You see the pattern.

I really am curious how the industry will handle the higher generation of heat, as we move forward into the future.

Motherboards used to come without any heatsinks.

Now, heatsinks cover various capacitors, voltage regulars, VRMs, whatever.

Sign of things to come, as we move into the future.

M.2s used to come as a plain stick.

Now, there are heatsinks and fans.

#SignOfThingsToCome

PCIe SSDs usually already come with heatsinks, but it won't surprise me when I start seeing fans on them, in the future ... and they start looking like skinny versions of GPU cards.

lulz
Found one.
Gigabyte Aorus 8TB SSD ... it has a fan on it ... because it runs hot. 😆

https://hexus.net/media/uploaded/2018/5/489a46a9-a4e8-4fd6-9ee7-b558c3a2b6db.jpg

lol ... heatsink + copper heatpipe + heatsink ... for an M.2 stick. 😆

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/284059174013501440/776694797607239720/unknown.png

If we are going to reach the 2035 goal, in this nVIDIA graphics roadmap, then the industry needs to deal with all that heat.

[blazing spire]

that has me a little bit worried for the pcie4 m2 i just bought because it doesn't have a heatsink 😅

both m.2 slots have tubes to a fan though

[devout pendant]

Make sure your case fans blow a lot of air over it.

[blazing spire]

it will be blocked by the gpu 😂

[shrewd shard]

0.5nm nodes

[devout pendant]

#1
You are referring to fab size, but CPU die size and GPU die size will remain the same or even increase.

#2
You are not addressing all the other hardware components I mentioned above.

[blazing spire]

on a different note. that cpu fan that was blocking my pcie slot 1 was actually upside down and boy it is not symmetrical at all like i thought it was

so I'm back to gpu in slot 1!

[devout pendant]

I'm actually a fan of horizontal motherboards, but most people don't seem to like them because they require a PC case to be larger at the base ... but with horizontal motherboards, you don't have to worry if something is upside-down or rightside-up ... but back to my topic of heat-generation ... I would like to see submersive cooling available for regular consumers ... then it won't matter what orientation the motherboard is.

[shrewd shard]

If I had a 10 sq. m. desk to put that bad boy on, sure

[blazing spire]

they can't be that big! surely you jest

[shrewd shard]

also servers already exist

they're technically horizontal PCs

[blazing spire]

i do just so happen to have a big desk though 🤔

[devout pendant]

We can reach nVIDIA's 2035 graphics roadmap goal ... without a large desk ... with this ...

http://youtu.be/YyKIZPuepl8

[blazing spire]

isn't there mobos where you don't even need a cpu fan though

[shrewd shard]

Isn't that kinda bad at cooling?

[blazing spire]

i hope not because it costs your soul plus probably your cat

the aurous extreme

[devout pendant]

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/321578-microsoft-dunks-servers-into-boiling-fluid-to-cool-them-off
Tell Microsoft that submersive cooling is bad. 😆

[blazing spire]

apparently they use the whole mobo as a heatsink

[wind egret]

0.5nm nodes for everything then! Die size increasing is good, actually; it's more area to apply a heatsink. Most of the heat comes from clockspeed and voltage anyway, so if you want to go back to the days of 66Mhz I think we'll be just fine using radiative cooling.

[shrewd shard]

Silicon won't live to see 0.5 anyway

It's beyond what allows it to be stable I believe

Other elements, like I believe Germanium, can run at lower voltages and work at such lithography

[devout pendant]

https://www.eetimes.eu/a-new-way-for-photonic-chips/

https://semiengineering.com/brighter-future-for-photonics/

Photonics would solve some heat/power problems ... but reaching a working photonic chip itself is a problem that I haven't seen a solution to, but I am just a joe schmo consumer, not an insider like Intel CEO Patrick Gelsinger or AMD CEO Dr. Lisa Su or nV CEO Jensen Huang.
Maybe they have seen a photonic chip in front of their eyes.

I don't necessarily see a linear path.
I see multiple possibilities, going into the future.
We can solve heat in a variety of ways.

Quantum electron tunneling is a fab problem, but I read that TSMC is doing 3nm prototypes, so they must have found a solution ... or maybe they still encounter quantum electron tunneling but are dealing with it.

[shrewd shard]

Either way, the solution is in a different element

Silicon has a hard cap, we simply haven't reached it yet

[devout pendant]

According to Wikipedia, Intel/Samsung/TSMC have either reached 3nm or are going to ... I'm assuming using different processes from each other.

[devout pendant]

You can joke and say they are charging us consumers so much $$ for these new hardware components ... in order to fuel their R&D for 3nm and beyond.

https://www.eetasia.com/18032601-2nm-end-of-the-road/
There may be diminishing returns, going smaller.
Being able to do it, is one thing.
Commercializing it and corporations being able to profit from it, is another thing.

[novel briar]

The need of new architectures was coming for some time. Like lastly they optimise mostly and add cores only.

[wind egret]

There are already diminishing returns. Pentium D failed. Intel sticking to 4 cores stalled. They're exceeding 5ghz now, decades late, by pushing out more heat. More or less the same for AMD.

Also just because the process shrinks doesn't they're able to shrink every type of transistor, so there might still be quite a few 14nm structures on a 5nm die. And unless someone solves whatever stopped those from shrinking, they may still be there on the 3nm die.

[shrewd shard]

I think we might be hitting diminishing returns territory now

This latest gen of GPUs don't have a 200$ part

At least for now

Though the previous gens got one announced a similar time period after flagship released

And also the performance increase isn't that much better at lower price points (3060 for example)

[novel briar]

4080 -> $2k+ 😉

[wind egret]

I don't think that's strictly because of diminishing returns. The next step down from the 2060 was the 1660 Ti (or was it the super? Is the super the newer one? GD Nvidia)

There's an argument that it's not worth marketing the RTX feature set at that level.

Meanwhile, even if AMD was planning to make a 6500 XT, they're too busy making PS5 and XSX chips.

[devout pendant]

Gamers Nexus covered some of the visible diminishing returns.

[wind egret]

What is that Final 6mo. price? The 3060 is >$400 now.

[devout pendant]

I am guessing MSRP was used.

[wind egret]

A few decent Gigabyte ones are 389

Samsung is going to have a 5nm process for them, so there's at least another generation or two to grow.

[devout pendant]

... anyway ... if consumers watch these review channels on YouTube ... and they see that the next greatest hardware isn't too much of a performance improvement ... then consumers might be less willing to upgrade on as frequent of cycles ... and that could hit corporate profits ... which also affect R&D.
It could be a domino effect.

Corporations usually diversify their market presence, however, so it might not be such a big deal.

[wind egret]

Heat is worrying. Mostly because I remember when they were trying to make dual-GPU cards and they were straddling the 300W limit. The problem then was maybe wafer sizes?

But I find there's something uncomfortable about having a kilowatt space heater in the room with you.

[devout pendant]

True.
If corporations don't handle the heat in hardware, silicon/semiconductors will just last shorter lives, and cause consumers to buy replacements/upgrades more frequently = continuing profit cycles for corporations.

[frank glade]

3060 is 1200$ here, 3090 is 3900$ best retail prices 😆

[wind egret]

From secondhand retailers. They can charge whatever they want. MSRP for the reference 3060 Ti on Best Buy is only $399 but obviously not available. There's not even a reference 3060.

But usually the AIB cards weren't that much more expensive than the reference version, and weren't more expensive than the next tier unless they were watercooled.

I think the 3060 can sell profitably at $200 to $300. The demand is just too high.

[frank glade]

It's good that retailers there have some moral fiber, these prices we have are on every store, for brand new cards. They figured that they sell like hotcakes anyway, so prices are 3x-4x everywhere. Scalpers sell them for cheaper now

You can buy them though, plenty in stock (they still sell at these prices though). I hope it won't get this crazy everywhere

[wind egret]

Mining is driving the price of video cards. E.g. There's a shortage of CPUs but the price hasn't gone totally mad because there's very little profitability in CPU mining. But shipping and distribution has got stupid expensive so everything's gone up in price a bit anyway.

[delicate meadow]

Does anyone know if this is enough to run builds?

[novel briar]

Define "run builds".

[hoary urchin]

if its building the engine/cooking a project, that will be super slow about 2hours or more per build MINIMUM 😄

and that is being optimistic

[delicate meadow]

Make builds?

[delicate meadow]

Is it the CPU?

[novel briar]

A bit better, but still too undefined. It can mean from compiling from source, to lighting work, to localisation, to mobile games, to high-end top games. And as you can imagine, requirements for any of these vary wildly. So be specific.

[delicate meadow]

An average PC game @novel briar

[novel briar]

...

It's fine then 🤷‍♂️

[fervent jolt]

they don't think it be like it is, but it do

[kind talon]

Definitely want an SSD in it tho @delicate meadow

It'll do it, as people said above but it wont be amazing. With SSD at least it will be a lot better

[shrewd shard]

Those Xeon Ds are basically laptop CPUs

Ultra low power, the 4 core is a 3.2 Ghz at most

They're focused on single core performance a ton more over multithread and are a competition to ARM for the most part

Well, low power for a Xeon that is

Not like the actual laptop chips

But it's pretty damn comparable to 4000QM parts