#career-chat

1 messages · Page 90 of 1

flat gazelle
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I am confusion

royal lintel
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I said that specific chart wasn't useful

flat gazelle
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Right, but the ones posted above it?

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Or the link?

hybrid phoenix
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I just pulled out that specific chart

flat gazelle
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A summary

royal lintel
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sure, those are fine

hybrid phoenix
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Because Blue Man was commenting on the US/EU disparity

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I agree that by itself that chart raises more questions, but in the grand scheme of things it's really just there to illustrate rough trends, and it's very evident that the US pays vastly more than EU counterparts

royal lintel
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Yes, that I agree with.

flat gazelle
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Sometimes I miss being part of a giant company. You can get some more internal data like Blue Man has. Both EA and Ubi had much more data available on their intranets. :/

royal lintel
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Comparing to CoL would be nice

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though that has a huge disparity even within the US

hybrid phoenix
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The US can get an entire study like this of its own

royal lintel
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I've definitely seen such studies before, they exist... somewhere

shut tree
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@flat gazelle we would be stupid w/o our internets 😛

wary idol
hybrid phoenix
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Intranets specifically, @shut tree

flat gazelle
shut tree
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no i dont have intranet

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i just have internet

wary idol
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You can get some more internal data like Blue Man has. I can still recognize sarcasm

flat gazelle
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My bad, I assumed you had it but isn't allowed to share it since you could tell the survey I posted was "plain wrong" and only cited actual working experience.

hybrid phoenix
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I mean, we can really only assume you have internal data you can't discuss, because you're not really divulging what makes you disagree with the survey

shut tree
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i didnt read it like that

flat gazelle
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I guess I read too much into it.

hybrid phoenix
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I read it the same way, Partikel

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That's also why I stopped asking about it

flat gazelle
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Yeah

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same

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Not cool to dig for internal stuff

wary idol
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Have internal data and experiences is not the same thing, I clearly stated I'm talking from experience and numbers are the ones I've heard flying around
What's not clear there, pls explain

hybrid phoenix
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Just a miscommunication

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I guess Partikel and I both read "personal experience" as "I've come across stuff that gives me other views but I can't share said stuff"

flat gazelle
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Having data tends to give a broader picture than just personal experiences unless you are the one setting the salaries for the company. I don't know if you do so I assumed you had data. no bad intent here.

hybrid phoenix
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For what it's worth, everything I've said is entirely personal experience (which isn't all that extensive compared to some others in this community) and conversations with others in the industry, I really have no meaningful data to speak of

flat gazelle
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Same, I only know the salaries of those around me. I mean, it's all public information here, but digging it up takes efffooooort

shut tree
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saying vfx artists make more than programmers is a big statement tho 😛

hybrid phoenix
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It's really not that inaccurate though, as far as I've seen

flat gazelle
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Copied from the salary survey

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It's not my statement.

shut tree
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true

hybrid phoenix
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I've repeatedly been surprised to see how much VFX makes

shut tree
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i dont know any VFX irl

hybrid phoenix
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and vaguely offended that they make more than me as tech-artist tbh

flat gazelle
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Everyone and their dog is a tech artist 😉

hybrid phoenix
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😭

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But yeah, joys of being in an under-served niche

flat gazelle
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That's all it is though. VFX isn't taught anywhere while here in Sweden there are two full Tech Art educations.

hybrid phoenix
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Yep

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Hence why I'm vaguely offended by it 😬

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But in practice, same reason TA's expensive; there's not enough of us

flat gazelle
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I can live with that

hybrid phoenix
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Though TA's definitely more towards the technical side

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hurdur technical art is technical

wary idol
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Same, I only know the salaries of those around me. I mean, it's all public information here, but digging it up takes efffooooort
Same pretty much^
So what can we take from this "argument" having experience is not the same as having actual data, we know how much other roles get paid only from the stuff we heard, there is a higher difference and general higher salary in US compared EU, surveys shouldn't be take as a final word

@flat gazelle Sorry if I came out a bit "aggressive", not specifically you but in general here a survey and personal experience was being takes as facts which was getting highly annoying

hybrid phoenix
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If you can't rely on a large recruitment company's survey results, I don't think you can really rely on any data out there

flat gazelle
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I think that is the consensus.

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All data on this is trash

hybrid phoenix
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Fair

flat gazelle
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It will vary

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And you can't assume anything.

hybrid phoenix
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I mean, even if it didn't vary and you knew the exact numbers

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It'd still be useless

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Because one place is not the same as another

flat gazelle
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Indeed.

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And salary is only one point. Hell I value vacation days higher than salary for example. Assuming I have enough to live.

wary idol
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that is very true, experience will vary greatly from person to person so there will always be disagreements

hybrid phoenix
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Yep, agreed Glad. Heck, I'll happily take a 25-30% pay-cut on my current salary if it means I can get a four-day work week

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(That's actually something I'm trying to do atm, so appropriate example)

flat gazelle
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I took a paycut for my last job because it was something I was interested in.

hybrid phoenix
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Who'd have guessed it's hard to get people to OK a part-time tech-artist 😦

shut tree
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you need to add an on call

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so they can still calll you for an hour on ur day off

hybrid phoenix
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That's the sort of thing I'm sure we'll discuss when it gets to negotiations

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But it's a difficult sell nonetheless

shut tree
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thats stupid, on call is way cheaper

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when u really really need it, you get help

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1 link can save a lot of hours

fickle hatch
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I'll take a lower salary if the project is interesting to work on

outer cipher
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hey, does anyone know the general price range of a key art piece from a contracted concept artist?

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with high quality, aaa etc

valid summit
# hybrid phoenix Who'd have guessed it's hard to get people to OK a part-time tech-artist 😦

And it's sad. I got a job last year. It was for a small mobile game. I expected the job to be 75% tech-art 25% 3d artist. It ended up being the reverse. Spent most of my time modeling car (which is neither something I like doing or good at)
After 2 month and half. I had a discussion with my employer at the time we agreed to make me focus on all tech-art part of the game before the end of my term (it was a 4 month full time job)
It would have been more beneficial for both me a the studii I've worked at if it either got parttimr tech art only. Or shorter job

tall solar
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Regarding the conversation on the EU vs States salaries. There's a reason that a lot of the State's salaries are higher for positions like programming or anything tech related really. Costs of living in places where tech related positions are prominent in the states, have much higher living costs. California, Chicago, New York, Madison, Seattle. If you compare the actual cost of living in these places to major spots in Europe like Paris, London, Helsinki, Stockholm, Munich, Vienna, Oslo, Warsaw, etc. Most of these places are much much cheaper to live than most of the US hotspots as far as basic necessities like food, housing, etc. The only real cheaper side of the US is material stuff, clothing, oddities, and sometimes public transportation. It's so bad that a few of these European places are 2-3 times cheaper than places like Seattle, Washington. Add onto that the beloved US tradition of having 40k-160k worth of college debt to pay for once you start working, add on health insurance. Add on school and childcare costs if you start a family. Then also start planning for a retirement. I can't personally speak for any other place in Europe, but as an American currently living in Tampere, Finland... If I was making the median 40k for a software developer here in Finland, I wouldn't move back to the States even if someone offered me 80k a year. And that is before the social and political aspects are brought out.

hardy perch
daring cipher
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Who else has been spending the first years in game development working 7 day weeks?

hybrid phoenix
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If my own indie stuff counts, ✋

daring cipher
# hybrid phoenix If my own indie stuff counts, ✋

Yeah for me its like 8 hours planned work daily and then I turn towards random stuff thats either on my own titles or helping friends with their titles 😄 On the weekend i try to only work on my own stuff recently, but as soon as I took over project management at work the weekend turned into "pre-week plan phase" instead xD

flat gazelle
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Ah, ye olde burn out method. Classic

daring cipher
torpid whale
flat gazelle
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Everyone tries it, it never works.

hybrid phoenix
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Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you've already thought about this @daring cipher, but I'd strongly recommend not turning your weekend into work, no matter how well it pays (or whatever else). It doesn't sound like a temporary kind of thing for you either, but more of a "Oh no there's a hole in responsibilities and workload due to mismanagement now I'll solve it by spending more time working", which is a structural problem that can only be resolved by addressing the mismanagement - at which point it's likely not very useful for you to be doing this in the meantime either

daring cipher
# hybrid phoenix Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you've already thought about this <@!415212815771500545>,...

It really depends. Atm I have taken over project management on a title which is best solved by sitting down and putting in the effort to define outlines for the team to work in. So in that regard its a limited amount of time I have to spend until everything is fleshed out. But usually I have my weekends free from "paid" work and just work on my "hobby" which is ... well game development xD

I discussed this with a bunch of colleagues and we discovered that when we set our official "work" time at around 8 hours a day we still end up doing more but feel way more relaxed, because its coming out of the remaining energy pockets we WANT to put into whatever we are interested in, compared to "having to" do it.

hybrid phoenix
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Atm I have taken over project management on a title which is best solved by sitting down and putting in the effort to define outlines for the team to work in. So in that regard its a limited amount of time I have to spend until everything is fleshed out
So put your other responsibilities on hold and focus entirely on the project management until that's sorted, but restrict it to the hours you're actually being paid for

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If project management so desparately needs fixing, that should take precedence over everything else at work. It shouldn't take precedence over your life

flat gazelle
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Let him do it! No style cramping. They will either burn out and fail or succeed and build a studio that's based on pure crunch.

wary idol
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I work weekends (paid) if I feel like it, if I don't have anything else to do that weekend and I'm motivated I'll spend it working. There are weekends when I would rather spend it doing something else, playing games etc.. And there are some when I want to work

daring cipher
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Also don't worry its not like i am sitting here crying about the hours - they are getting paid, its just me sharing that I feel like MANY of us are put into positions like this over the years.

daring cipher
# flat gazelle Let him do it! No style cramping. They will either burn out and fail or succeed ...

Sounds pretty toxic to me the way you phrase this 🙂 There is a difference between putting down the effort yourself and making others put the effort in.

For me the goal is to put in the effort myself, so the people I lead can stick with their normal hours instead of having to follow in-efficient workflows / pipelines and later having to crunch because the lead team didn't have a proper plan.

flat gazelle
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If you say so!

daring cipher
daring cipher
# flat gazelle If you say so!

Why don´t you share the bad experiences you made and what makes you turn towards others efforts with such negativity?

hybrid phoenix
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I think the general idea behind what Glad's saying is just that if you let your leadership crunch, that encourages poor time management, and you'll be in a downwards spiral for the entire company from there

flat gazelle
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And if the leadership is crunching there is an unspoken pressure to do so.

hybrid phoenix
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^That's a bigger thing that most people realize

flat gazelle
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That's how most studios end up in those situations.

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I've lived it

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for years

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Nobody is explicitly telling you to crunch, yet there you are working 80 hour weeks for months on end.

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That basically sums up the first 5 or so years of my career.

daring cipher
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Unless you openly discuss hours in your weekly's and you make sure your team is taking time off? 😄 It´s not like you can just wipe over this without knowing there are simple solutions if your lead isn`t a full on ...ass

flat gazelle
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And seeing as you are here humblebragging about it, I can almost guarantee that feeling is spreading to your teammates.

daring cipher
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which is why I tell them to take breaks and I can also enforce it by holding back tasks xD

flat gazelle
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Anyone else here pullin mad hours huh, lol I'm so cray cray.

hybrid phoenix
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It's a slippery slope, and it's impossible to deny that

daring cipher
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Definitly, but its basically a reality any team eventually faces and just putting it off means you dont have solutions at hand when the time comes

hybrid phoenix
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Well

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You shouldn't be putting it off

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You should be doing whatever you can within the constraints of your work hours

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But you should try your darndest to not go beyond that

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Because it's a slippery slope

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That's all I (and I think Glad as well) am saying

daring cipher
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100 % - apart from that I wasnt only talking about "one single project" but the fact that after work well I guess i still develop games, just not "at work" anymore

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whos glad 😄

hybrid phoenix
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Yeah, that's a separate thing, I'm just on the project management taking up your weekend thing

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Glad is Partikel, sorry

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Used to his old name 😬

daring cipher
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😄

flat gazelle
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Had to update after someone on this server got angry at me and found it fun to label my old name as a f/25/ca on 4chan.

hybrid phoenix
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Gotta love the interwebs.

daring cipher
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i never ever have been accused of "humblebragging" in my life before xD

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tbh dont even know the word xD

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but can gather the context

flat gazelle
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I'm just very anti crunch and you are fishing for support for it. I disagree with you. Strongly. Sorry if you find that edgy :/

daring cipher
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There is a difference between disagreeing and going ad hominem.

flat gazelle
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Agreed!

daring cipher
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Lets just shake hands and say crunch is shit 😄

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bcs thats what i believe myself

hybrid phoenix
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I don't think it's really ad hominem

daring cipher
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it was going there 😄

hybrid phoenix
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I get why you might read it that way, but he's not attacking you, he's disagreeing with you seeming like you're seeking support for your crunch

daring cipher
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i dont

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not at all lol

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i think we all know the long term cost

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of crunch

hybrid phoenix
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It did kinda read like it

daring cipher
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i am just defending the possibility of leadership being actually able to crunch without making others do the same

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#slipperyslope yadadi 😄

hybrid phoenix
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Which is possible, but a very slippery slope

daring cipher
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yess 😄

hybrid phoenix
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Which kinda defeats the point

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Because it leads back to

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"Just don't crunch"

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😛

daring cipher
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xxD

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or

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... ah well honestly ... it was like this ... i saw the stuff not working (overarching production level) but ignored it since i wasn't in a full on leadership position. It reached a point where I had to step in (and tell the product owner to let me take over) bcs it gets ... critical ... at some point.

And if you do that and you got a production already running then fixing/re-orienting things needs to happen asap because you are literally burning money every day.

So for each department not a lot changed, but at least they got documentation processes now, task tracking a written pipeline description ... production can properly cost track future tasks too ... and so on. It´s the little things I feel and often a project fails only at the production level because there´s no clear directive or the investor financing the show is not experienced enough in the specifics of game development.

I had instances where projects scaled into production, cost exploded and then the investor pulled out because the context grew over his head. So for me spending a few extra weekends to make sure THAT does not happen .. yeah good personal investment 🙂 100%

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@flat gazelle here some context 🙂 would love to hear your opinion on this

flat gazelle
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Nope. Disengaging. You started accusing me of ad hominem.

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Best of luck to you!

daring cipher
daring cipher
daring cipher
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thats the nice way of saying that someone is full of themselves

flat gazelle
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Please stop pinging me.

daring cipher
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Yes, sorry I am used to using the answering mechanic in here

remote saffron
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you can turn off the ping

remote saffron
daring cipher
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sadKEK god damnit Oo didnt ever notice that button xD

daring cipher
digital gate
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Gotta agree with Partikel here, and a statement of fact isn't an ad hominem. You're definitely humble bragging - "Oh man, isn't working all these hours really tough? (see I'm a cool guy carrying the responsibility of the entire production)".

If you read into it and want to have the takeaway that you're full of yourself and should feel bad, that's on you. You can't just say "this statement of fact makes me feel bad, ergo ad hominem". That's a fallacious use of fallacy as some sort of trump card to win the battle and (this is closer to AH, more likely poisoning the well) have your overindulgent crunch period vanquished in your own eyes.

If everyone sees that you're overworking yourself, and you brush it off with "Ah but I'd be doing game dev anyway" and "Isn't it more fun when we don't technically have to?" then you are developing an active culture of crunch and crunch apologism.

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So if we're gonna discuss this, shelve the fallacy cop out until someone is more blatantly in bad faith

daring cipher
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Ffs I am NOT humblebragging xD I am not proud over my hours. I am worried about my fucking health every day. But I definitely do enjoy my work, which is the reason why I spend time on other projects after I am done with work.

Apart from that protecting your job is something any freelancer needs to think about. For me that sometimes means doing production work for the production I get employed at, because I can and know how to pull it of properly.

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I feel like you guys are reading a lot into what I am writing here too. I started this whole line of with a pretty simple question if you can´t remember:

"Who else has been spending the first years in game development working 7 day weeks?"

digital gate
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Ah, see, assuming I can't scroll

daring cipher
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no 🙂

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but i havent interacted with you so how would i know if you did 🙂

digital gate
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"I hate it when I accidentally advance my progressive overload too quickly and end up lifting enough to make me fully sore for 2 days"

Would you class that as a humble brag?

daring cipher
# digital gate So if we're gonna discuss this, shelve the fallacy cop out until someone is more...

also i did never cop out of the argument, i just mentioned that calling me a humblebragger is ad hominem. Thats it xD I can hold an argument about culture development, the issues pertaining crunch and so on, but if you go around calling someone a humblebragger I need to be able to call that out since its definitly not something you should just be doing to someone randomly you never ever met in person and whom you are definitly projecting your own experiences onto.

digital gate
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Refute and engage the definition the other person is using towards the action you took, it isn't an ad hominem to describe actions you are demonstrably taking

daring cipher
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where did i humblebrag?

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because you are describing an INTENTION and thats definitly not my intention

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you can not just say "it is what i think it is and thats the end of the story" and then leave

digital gate
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Okay, are you proud of being able to keep the production on track?

daring cipher
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I am proud of my ability to structure things.

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I am not happy with spending 7 days a week working ffs xD

digital gate
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Including that dodge, nice

daring cipher
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Well you expect me to use my brain so here you go

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phew 😄

daring cipher
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who wouldnt be

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but apart from that I am also looking into 2 weeks from now when I am finished with that cycle and can spend my weekend working on my friends proof of concept

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because honestly its more fun

digital gate
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Anyway.

daring cipher
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I dont like just unspecifically spouting ideas. to me it kinda needs to connect to actual experience i have or others have

digital gate
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I think you're going to foster a culture of crunch, if that isn't already present, so that was why I stepped in.

You can still make sure the production stays on track and not contribute to acceptance of and apologia for crunch. It's all in how you frame it in your communication with others.

daring cipher
daring cipher
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I honestly don´t know if just my terminology is a bit off, but I always felt crunch was the norm being a freelancer. I work for over 11 years and every project ever has at least some minuscule amounts of crunch periods because you can never 100% plan everything out and at some point you will have to meet** some **deadline.

Just as an example - **editing movies for 7 years **+ I did a shit ton of same day edits. Structurally all of them were approached the same way but every now and then you end up with a new creative idea. Or you get few more hours video to review, or the music doesn´t fit and you have to re-edit.... A work that's usually taking 8 hours to complete takes 10 or 12 and you gotta crunch it into the time frame you usually would take a break after work in since the delivery deadline end of day.

I think crunch is being used as a simple "nominator" that you can easily apply to anything that's "bad" since crunch is always gonna be an issue. Which in reality its ... well its** debatable **...

People working in non uniform development environments // freelancers usually know what it means to be pulled in "late" into development and then having to make up for it with extra effort and long hours.

Not saying its good but its a reality I met more than once. (and i believe most of us have)

I remember my first job as an editor for a TV Show was like this "hey we literally did not find anyone else to edit this can you?" and I ended up spending the nights learning the new tools and the days working with them and making the deadline ONLY that way.

Experiences like that showed me that sometimes there is no way around crunch, expect for well - doing good planning and trying to avoid it like hell.

ashen lynx
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If anyone is pulling heroic overtimes, it means that manager above either screwed up somewhere or intentionally exploits.

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Thats all.

daring cipher
pastel estuary
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worst case, someone doesnt want to go home because they had a fight with their spouse :p

daring cipher
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Always xD

digital gate
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@daring cipher true! You can't ever avoid working overtime fully

ashen lynx
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Yes, a manager should account for that during planning.

digital gate
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And doing so every so often isn't a culture of crunch

hybrid phoenix
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that^

daring cipher
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I was a junior at that point

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so non essential xD

daring cipher
hybrid phoenix
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Either way, I suspect it'd be best for all of us to just let this discussion go for now

daring cipher
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Just a little bit heated #cough xD

fickle hatch
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My friend was mainly talking about the 'crunch' that happens with final frames, where a small team of people has to review every single rendered frame to correct pixel errors and minor issues and such and how that process was always organized as kind of a crunch at their place

daring cipher
main wharf
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I've been wondering for a while whether or not the term Crunch, being used so generally implies either a lack of management or if it's that soft undertone of a manager who says "Well, you want that one thing? show us an all nighter and you may get the thing."

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Basically I'm wondering about the potential passive aggressive undertones that kinda give you no-way out. (which, doesn't need to be stated, is a massive issue)

hybrid phoenix
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I think crunch is just kinda generally taken to be "collective overtime due to mismanagement and poor project planning"

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Not necessarily malicious in the sense of malicious management

main wharf
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@hybrid phoenix Sorry, I was catching up - if the conversation is to be killed, I can just nerf the messages.

hybrid phoenix
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Oh, hah

main wharf
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Shall we?

hybrid phoenix
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I saw this as a standalone question, honestly

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Had already forgotten about yesterday's convo

main wharf
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For sure, but like. Don't wanna continue a heated discussion either x)

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But yeah, I agree I feel like while the term is and can be used as Crunch. Often it definitely gets called something else if it were to escalate.

hybrid phoenix
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There's also 'development hell', of course

main wharf
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Don't remind me :p

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(I kid)

hybrid phoenix
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Similar, but I think that's usually reserved for "pre-prod being mismanaged so development takes 5x the time it should have because everything keeps going back to the drawing board"

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Actively manipulative management is not so much part of crunch imo, so much as it's just... Toxic management.

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Crunch sucks and can happen in loads of contexts, but it's not necessarily an active choice on the management side

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There's exceptions like Naughty Dog and CDPR where it's very much an active choice

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Which I believe goes well beyond regular 'crunch' and just becomes toxic management and creates a hostile workplace

daring cipher
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Tbh I feel crunch is more of an issue where companies have reached a size that managers can not singularly identify the results of their decision on each person in the company anymore.

Of course in some way management at CDPR knows that crunching costs energy, hell they will feel it themselves just as anyone else. but if you are surrounded with yes men and other overly engaged people, which usually is the case with how lead artists are chosen (not yes men but hard working, reliable and communicative people), you end up building a bubble of positive reinforcement for crunch "planning".

At least thats my** theory **to explain the clear disconnect between KNOWING that crunch is hurting the company (since exhausted workers create worse results) and still DOING it anyway (which can clearly be seen especially in AAA).

steel creek
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crunch is due to inept schedulers be they managers, production coordinators or otherwise. no great mystery. Realizing you suck as a scheduler, or have shitty ones, and then LEANING INTO that practice -- turns you from inept, to scum bag.

daring cipher
# steel creek crunch is due to inept schedulers be they managers, production coordinators or o...

Simply stupefying or vilifying actions without understanding the production environment will lead only to conflict and not to change. That what I was trying to say earlier already - if you only look at the result (crunch) you will never understand how to change the path towards it.

Something I really miss in those discussions here is in depth personal experiences that can help each one of us grow while listening.

Coming from Movie Development Originally the first thing I noticed - just as an example - is that the initial documentation and planning that needs to be done for a game compared to a movie is at least sitting at a factor of 2-10. Even Junior Teams I worked with in film had a very clear understanding of the "have to´s" for making their plan work, compared to that when starting out in game development nearly EVERY indie team i met so far that mostly consisted of Juniors - maybe 10-50% of knowledge of what you would need to pull of for a full production cycle.

Even when you look at documentation on processes ... its rare that you will find anyone understanding the FULL cycle of development with clear cut goals and so on.

Trying to point out that there's more to the cure than just telling ppl they are SHIT 😄

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look all this is highly theory crafting xD take it with a grain of salt

steel creek
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so, yeah, been making "movies" and "tv" for almost 25 years now -- take what I say "with a grain of salt" -- its what I have observed, for those same years.

daring cipher
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like i said theorycrafting .)

steel creek
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the problem is not that you are wrong in attempting to understand the actual problem -- the issue at hand is how many businesses actually "care" to change. Sucessful Businesses typically have the mindset of "aint broke, dont fix" -- and the only time that changes is when some group (like a gov. regulatory agency) puts too much pressure and they have to change the culture.

Modern times, social media has helped make it more aware, but, awareness isnt the problem. Everyone IS aware. But here we got a hundred thousand new "game dev" and "future vfx filmmakers" going off and spending their exspsoure dollars in the chance to work for one of these zombie factories.

So, you cant kill it by the idea of change -- you need literal change at this point, and I dont see that happening with, again, the hundreds of billions games make (more than movies, music and PORN COMBINED)....

I dunno -- you need like the Elon Musk of games to just start crapping on all the lack of agency anyone is doing about the nightmare which is the entertainment industry and how it treats its workers.

I am in a Union for VFX. It helps -- that would be the first thing I would put in front of all these new students hungry to just throw in for 5+ years to "start their career" and eat 20 hour 6 day workweeks.

And, keep in mind, you are also competing with those same people in places like India and China, where I have trained up entire studios to go off and work, never to hear from again, until "work done".

I have seen how they are even more invested in the idea of doing whatever they need to do just to get and keep the work coming. If that means "crunch" -- like I said -- it becomes the policy and de facto work day fare.

That is because of mere passing the lazy torch... and like I said, turning that into "profit" business, which we all here support through games and movies and tv shows, .....

daring cipher
#

My current stance is coming from leading "smaller" teams (5-15 members each) and all of them within VERY tight budget restrictions, so I have to focus on making sure that everything is smooth af or people will just leave, move on, quit.

I can imagine that if there are other dependencies - like lack of other opportunities for artists or ease of replace-ability because the budget is big enough - the mindset might change since a manager isn't getting forced into a position of "achieving harmony" anymore.

In large companies managers often are also not directly product owners and with companies with investors behind them the pressure for immediate results is higher than the pressure on building lasting relationships (a bit out of proportion here maybe ...).

Honestly not sure what to think about it rn 😄 I´d like to dig deeper but all you say makes a LOT of sense.

I have thought about the lack of unions for game devs already when I started out and I felt quite uncomfortable with the fact there are NONE. Even cleaners have a union here in germany that give them stable income thats better than anything I´ve seen in some periods of my work so far.

But I also do not see major movement´s for Unionization happening - OR - my personal bubble is just not filled with people being worried about it since around me, we are all pretty much starting out (1-10 years experience maximum).

#

I think you wouldn´t be able to unionize game dev anyway since you´d need to put a global effort in and then companies will just set up their grinding farms in low income region where the Union is not active and fly people in.

steel creek
#

yep. zero unions. Makes the most money in the world, has zero protections for the most fundamental workers. Good times.

daring cipher
vagrant pollen
#

Is this a good place to ask a question about hiring someone, before making a post for it?

dim osprey
#

yea shoot

daring cipher
vagrant pollen
#

Ours is the flying alien survival one :p

#

I was looking around for someone to hire for a rig on a new playable but it looks like we were able to get it covered :) thanks anyways yall

tepid storm
#

how important is uni if you want to get a job in game development as a programmer? I dont exactly have a set goal for a job but I have been learning programming and other computer science/engineering as a hobby for years. I would love to try my hand workin on a project with other people but worry my lack of formal education would be an issue even trying to find a spot on a non-paid team.

Any advice or insights would be appreciated 🙂 ty

digital gate
#

Do the thing.

violet python
#

@tepid storm I think your portfolio of previous projects speaks higher than any uni degree

high verge
#

Question, I saw a listing for an internship working on the Unreal Chaos Physics engine went up. I really wanted to apply last time but missed the deadline because my circumstances with school didn't allow for time to create a demo with Unreal + Chaos Engine (I went to go apply anyway and I thought I was a day early, but the listing was gone). Now I see a similar internship is being offered for the fall and I think it would allow me to use both my majors (Physics + CS) and its in C++ (my favorite language 10+ years). Would a more immediate application with no demo (no time with school) be preferred, or would a later application with a demo (running the risk of repeating my mistake) be preferred?

digital gate
#

If they ask for a demo, send in a demo - not having one when they want one is pro​bably ➡ 🚮 . Otherwise apply now (if there's still a spot to get in), but you can apply again later.

high verge
#

Doesn't say it in the description, does have a spot for "relevant websites" so I assume no. Thank you 😄

high verge
digital gate
#

I would do them yeah

#

Are you wanting to intern at Epic?

high verge
#

Yes

digital gate
#

Well, maybe do the course and then apply (probably okay to apply before you complete the course too)

#

I wouldn't put extra resources into pre-application portfolio stuffers, that time is better spent on the learn site.

high verge
digital gate
#

I wouldn't know

high verge
#

Im not really sure which courses here matter, its Chaos Physics engine position, and it doesn't seem like there is much on physics (maybe some of the materials/animation stuff?), mostly seems graphics based

shut tree
#

Chaos Physics engine sounds like hardcore math and programming

#

they dont have stuff like that on their learn hub 😛

whole cedar
#

I'm updating my resume and applying for a video game QA position. I don't have any actual experience in the industry but I do web development as part of my current job of the last 6 years and have been making game prototypes, etc in my free time for at least 10 years. I'm just wondering how detailed I should be with my work history. Before my current job I had a string of random jobs: pizza delivery, waiter, call center, Walgreens. Should I put it all on there?

craggy nacelle
#

If you have relevant experience then there's no point in putting irrelevant experience in there

#

I would list the dev stuff and any interesting prototypes you've made... if it looks short, you could perhaps consider listing some of the less relevant experience too, but it's really only if you feel like it should show more work history than you can with the relevant bits

high verge
alpine sapphire
#

Hey, is there anyone with a fair amount of (preferably artist) experience in the games industry that I can interview, today or tomorrow, for a school assignment of mine?
I had emailed some people I found via ArtStation, but they’ve been very slow to respond.
I have to interview an expert in the games industry to collect information, so I can form a perspective on the work field.

It should take less than 30 minutes, and I’ll be asking a couple of questions about your career and your experience in the industry. I have to record the interview for a transcription, but if you want I can keep your identity anonymous.

If you’re interested, please DM me with a bit of information about you and your work experience (an ArtStation/LinkedIn is fine too).

hybrid phoenix
# alpine sapphire Hey, is there anyone with a fair amount of (preferably artist) experience in th...

I suspect you'll struggle to do something like this, and admittedly I think it's questionable for your school to have an assignment like this because it's bound to just create a flock of students trying to get professionals to spend time on them with nothing in return...
But either way, that's not really anything you can work with so; I'm a technical artist with an indie background, seven years of experience, but all of it outside of the AAA space. If you can't find anyone more suitable, I'd be fine with having a chat.

alpine sapphire
#

I agree with you haha, I feel kind of awkward for asking so many people for their time just for an assignment

digital gate
#

It's sort of understandable, but what is less understandable is just not having a pool of pros that students can talk to (already interested in participating, having been approached by the school).

hybrid phoenix
#

That'd be how I'd do it if I were doing this as school. I think it's a very good idea to have students talk to actual industry workers, and I think it can be an incredibly valuable experience, but going "Find some random professional and convince them to spend half an hour on you" is really not the way to go about it

digital gate
#

Yeah it doesn't really build in-roads, just like randomly hitting up people on linkedin or whatnot (this is a better place to do it!)

#

Better to build a relationship between studios and the school because that might work out for if the studio ever has an open spot, versus making your students "be that person"

hybrid phoenix
#

I definitely do think that this is a good place to be asking, far better than LinkedIn and Artstation, because everyone that's hanging around here will already be far more open to spending some time helping people out for the heck of it

#

And the odds that you'll cross paths again and actually be able to have a meaningful conversation are definitely also higher in a community like this

daring cipher
#

When the profs tell you to talk to professionals, that means they are not? 😄 he heee :3

fickle hatch
#

They are teaching professionals, not like doing gamedev professionals lol

scenic garnet
#

...

hybrid phoenix
#

tbh a lot of college teachers for tech topics are of questionable competence

tacit siren
#

i have heard some horror stories where during an Unreal course on game dev uni they were not allowed to use Blueprints - only c++

#

held a few interviews for junior positions where they failed spectacularly, in no small part because of that

steady pewter
#

If it was for programming course, I would understsand.

tacit siren
#

not really, c++ and blueprints are supposed to work together in Unreal

#

and it was a programming course, but inside a general game dev curriculum

steady pewter
#

Well, 100% ban seems to much. 80% sounds okayish

tacit siren
#

result is students who don't really understand when they are doing, and have no idea how to even expose a property to a blueprint

hybrid phoenix
#

What'd be actually useful to do

#

Is to teach them where the Blueprint VM overhead lies

#

So that they can make educated decisions on what stuff to do in C++ and what to expose to BP for ease-of-use

tacit siren
#

agreed there

#

what all the candidates with above background had in common:
they failed a c++ basics, they had no understanding whatsoever how the game framework works, and not even a first clue how to integrate c++ and BP

hybrid phoenix
#

Not using BPs is incredibly stupid a premise

tacit siren
#

and those were the ones that came with recommendations

hybrid phoenix
#

If only because there's all sorts of assets that are basically just data-containers

#

Like navigationarea stuff

#

It's just a container

#

Defining its properties in C++ is a massive pain

#

So just put a reference in C++ and assign it in a child BP class

tacit siren
#

yes, im quite allergic to ConstructorHelpers

hybrid phoenix
#

And make the nav-area class in BP as well, so you can easily set the values in the visual editor

#

Aren't we all 😬

tacit siren
#

should get that teacher to maintain a code base with hardcoded asset references alongside my slightly OCD tech artist for a week

#

he likes to "properly name and organize stuff"

hybrid phoenix
#

Heh

#

We keep having all sorts of hard-coded refs in our code at work

#

And at every stage I'm just like "WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT"

#

(I'm the slightly OCD tech artist 😛 )

steady pewter
#

I'm heavy OCD, can't stand even few pixels offsets in BP nodes 🤔

fossil basin
#

Hey guys, not sure if this is the right channel, but is 90-day time for respond regarding epic mega grant accurate?

tacit siren
#

i would be shocked if it was that fast

fossil basin
#

in submission confmirmation message they state that if it takes longer they will reach out

#

but yeah

#

I'm closing to 80 days no

#

now*

hybrid phoenix
#

I'm pretty sure that's not accurate

#

Not 100% sure because I'm going off vague memories, but I believe they generally just don't respond for many months until at one point you might hear something

#

You definitely shouldn't be counting on it in the slightest for financing

tacit siren
#

from what i know, "fast" response usually means rejection

fossil basin
#

well, that's uplifiting hah

tacit siren
#

i don't even know if there is some kind of NDA attached to that

fossil basin
#

you mean I can't talk about how is it going in my case?

tacit siren
#

i don't know

daring cipher
# hybrid phoenix ~~tbh a lot of college teachers for tech topics are of questionable competence~~

I was once hired as a teacher for a uni and the curricula was basically reading of from premade texts - i discovered that the contents of said texts where
A: outdated
B: irrelevant for GAME ART (it was CG production related)
C: did not offer any up to date software lessons like substance or zbrush

I honestly did my best to add the current industry standard softwares and extended workflows, but with the added pressure of inconsistent payments and no will from management to invest both in the systems and softwares of the school I left after teaching for 1 semester.

I left art school 9 months before I went teaching. Honestly WORST case scenario even for me ...

hybrid phoenix
#

About sums up the state of tech-ed at most institutes

daring cipher
#

When I was at my art school I THOUGHT it wasnt the best but after leaving and teaching at another i realized I was actually relatively lucky with the one I had. Was definitely not the best but a good place to start learning (and then extend it to slackers and polycount).

I remember that the rookies had a "best of" school list, which I was looking at a WHILE ago.

leaden fulcrum
#

Hey everyone, im currently looking to do a certificate / what would be worth do to as a freeelancer to maybe go more towards software development ?

#

/what would be worth learning / what are current employers looking for ?

daring cipher
#

i think what most indie companies look for are generalists that can set up the entire art pipeline from 3D to rigging to animating a character. Tis a pain but tis is real xD

#

after that the next hot topic is networking

#

and after that anything related to animation pipelines

#

those 3 things are breaking points in most dev teams and highly thought after

hybrid phoenix
#

It highly depends what you're interested in doing, and just getting a certificate generally won't get you to a professional level

#

If you're asking out of the entirety of gamedev what offers good career prospects, I'd say learn how to make procedural tools using Houdini

leaden fulcrum
#

Allright. Well i have been working as a game dev for the past 6 years. Im not fully sure i want to quit im kinda just unsure right now.

hybrid phoenix
#

Right, so you want to transition out of gamedev

#

If so I definitely think you'd have more luck getting concrete career advice in communities around whatever you're looking to transition into

leaden fulcrum
#

Allright thank you.

daring cipher
leaden fulcrum
#

done that

#

for the past 2 years

honest cipher
#

interesting i see all that stuff on teaching unreal engine devs, and reminds me of the small high-speed course i gave @hybrid phoenix

#

in the course i gave, it was focused on BP, but for CS students

#

on the last class, i showed how would you do some very basic cpp, exposing variables and functions. The people already knew cpp (mostly), so just a small example was good enough

#

on the first year i gave it, i had more cpp classes, but turns out that teaching cpp in such a class is extremelly problematic

#

so left it just for the last in a fairly quick "this is how you create a cpp class and expose functions and properties"

#

not exactly sure why, but teaching unreal blueprint-focused dev is not that tricky, teaching Cpp is also doable, but teaching unreal cpp is near impossible

#

i found that, at least for programmers, it was best to teach programming (including cpp) before ever touching unreal, and then when doing unreal, focus on blueprints

leaden fulcrum
#

@honest cipher What i experience during my team doing some tutoring i saw alot of people lack basic knowledge about how C++ functions and alot of people i talked to never worked with C++ and tried to use Unrealscript and yeah.

Most important thing in my opinion if they wanna programm with Unreal c++ is that they have a good understanding of basics of c++ and then try to wrap theyre head around Unreal c++

honest cipher
#

knowing the basics isnt enough

#

you need to be fully confortable with modern cpp (cpp11)

#

its kind of a shame because cpp is required for unrea lengine games

#

pure-blueprint games are a clusterfuck beyond salvation. They have huge, huge issues

#

its solveable, specially with a text-based script lang that goes through blueprint VMs

hybrid phoenix
#

Can attest I strongly suffer from my garbage C++ knowledge

#

I make do between my general programming knowledge and my UE4 API knowledge

honest cipher
#

but "normal" blueprints will backfire horribly hard

hybrid phoenix
#

But wheeeeeew UE4 cpp is not fun

honest cipher
#

every single ue4 project that masses blueprint enough will suffer from Reference Explosion

leaden fulcrum
honest cipher
#

where starting the main menu loads literally the entire game into RAM

#

im not even talking about spaguetty

#

its actual system issues

#

upgrading engine becomes a massive hazard because stuff autobreaks, Reference Explosion happens, and a lot of fuckery and bugs with corruption abounds

#

plus it cant be source control-d

leaden fulcrum
#

Not talking about sphagetti Talking about haveing a multiplayer game where input is split across player controller and player things are then abstracted away to oblivion and nothing is commented out so you can literally find nothing. And also no comments.

honest cipher
#

rip

#

on cpp you have the good ol go to reference and things like that

#

so its fairly easy to follow things normally

hybrid phoenix
#

Documentation is a really big issue with large blueprint projects

leaden fulcrum
#

Yes omg.

honest cipher
#

i use bps a lot for prototype code, but eventually port it to cpp

#

and allways coming from a cpp class

hybrid phoenix
#

I do use quite a lot of BP, also pure BP classes

#

But that's because I don't really know better 😅

honest cipher
#

pure bp classes are a hazard because you cant add cpp functions directly

#

unless the bp class has no logic whatsoever and is just a container of components or things like that

leaden fulcrum
leaden fulcrum
honest cipher
#

what you comment is actually a huge issue on unity projects

#

because they dont have a game framework, every project is completely alien

leaden fulcrum
#

oh god

honest cipher
#

but blueprint projects do still follow the typical ue4 patterns tho

#

unless they are a complete 100% mess

leaden fulcrum
#

Also i dont know if this is a hot opinion but in my opinion is alot of the learning resources arent properly done and just rushed. which leads to most of these issues at hand.

Mainly refering to video tutorials
(Sadly i was part of the problem with early content i made)

crude shard
#

any freelancers here?

#

I need some advice

green oyster
#

A lot of freelancers here

covert wyvern
#

Mostly freelancers here I would say 😅

worldly thorn
#

Hello I'm new beginner👋

crude shard
#

Well problem is I'm having trouble finding freelance projects after Server layout change (Good old #looking-For-Talent) , What's your recommended replacement for finding UE4 freelance projects ?

crude shard
marsh stream
#

I just got offered my first full-time job in the industry which I'm super excited for! But I just wanted to ask is it common for game companies to tell you that you are not allowed to continue working on any idk personal projects? Making UE4 games in my own free time? I love doing them and that'd be a huge shame if I couldn't whilst working under that company

hybrid phoenix
#

For me and many others in the industry such a condition is a hard no

#

Without knowing more about your situation, odds are that if you can get one company to offer you a job, you can probably get another to offer you a job while letting you work on your own stuff

#

Many studios, and all studios I'd work for, value people who are enthusiastic and driven enough to do their own gamedev projects in their spare time, and have no issues whatsoever with people doing so

steady jasper
#

that's a little odd honestly

hybrid phoenix
#

Either way, if you'd like to work there, but not being allowed personal projects is a big problem for you, that's what your response should be. "I'd love to work with you, but my personal projects are incredibly important to me and if I cannot continue working on them I unfortunately have to turn down this offer."

#

Depending on who you ask, not being allowed to work on your own stuff is a red flag for mismanagement

#

But there's things to be said for and against it

steady jasper
#

i concur

hybrid phoenix
#

In the end, it doesn't really matter. If you're in a position where you can afford to be picky, then you can make demands

#

If you can afford to say no to parties that don't agree to those demands, then say no to those parties

#

I've just gone through a similar process in my own job-hunt, as I have a four-day workweek as requirement, which is a very difficult demand for a technical artist

steady jasper
#

why is a four day work week demanding? sorry just curious

hybrid phoenix
#

Because I want to work on my personal projects, and two days a week is not enough to get stuff done on my own projects while also having a life

#

😄

#

So actually a very related topic

dry hill
#

The "no personal projects" thing is a biggie outside of gamedev, sad to here it too.

hybrid phoenix
#

I wouldn't say it's a massive thing in gamedev, it's perfectly doable to find places that are fine with it

#

But there's definitely also plenty of places that do take issue with it

#

Again, it comes down to what you're willing to sacrifice. If you need a job to pay your bills, you don't get to be picky. Take the offer while being on the look-out for something better. If you don't need one right this second, and this is a deal-breaker to you, that's fine, you'll find something else

marsh stream
#

Hmm I see. Thanks for all the info!
Yeah exactly. It is definitely an opportunity I would be foolish to turn down. I've been looking to get my foot into the door for a long time (2-3 years really). The company seems fantastic and its a design role (despite it being my first idk real position as I've only done personal stuff and some basic freelance work). I might just have to put my personal projects on hold for a while if it comes to that.

hybrid phoenix
#

Depending on the sort of company and interviews etc. you might just be able to ask "why no personal projects and is there leeway to that rule"

#

Not being able to ask that sort of thing would, again, be a red flag for me

#

But that's also a matter of whether you're personally comfortable with it etc.

marsh stream
#

Yeah true, I'll definitely inquire on it!
But if it doesn't explcitly say in the contract, would you suggest I ask regardless? or just leave it. Sometimes I worry with all the corporate mumbojumbo that I might misunderstand what some idk umbrella terms like 'know-how' and how I can't use my 'know-how' to work on any other IP otherwise it belongs to said company. But if its not said in contract why bring it up? idk

#

Im pretty new to this as it is a big-ish company

flat gazelle
#

It's quite common to have such a clause for big companies.

gentle pewter
hybrid phoenix
#

I would definitely always bring up these sorts of things, because it's much better to be safe than sorry

#

This is always one of the first questions I ask about in any interview process

#

Because if the answer is no, I have no interest in continuing the conversation

crude shard
gentle pewter
#

Depends on the country you're in

hybrid phoenix
#

Depends where you are and how it's phrased

#

But it can be

gentle pewter
#

Laws are different about this kind of stuff

hybrid phoenix
#

Not to mention you'd have to be willing to test that in court to risk it

flat gazelle
#

You are always allowed to work on your own projects. However, if you've signed a contracts saying the company will own any IP you create, then don't be surprised when they own the ip.

hybrid phoenix
flat gazelle
#

Meaning it won't be your own anymore.

gentle pewter
#

Also depending on how much they want you, you might be able to get them to strike the clause. Less likely with large companies though.

hybrid phoenix
#

There's also "You're allowed to work on your own stuff but not if it's similar to what you work on at your job"

#

Either way, if it's something you're worried about, have a conversation with them about it and see what they say

flat gazelle
#

Yeah, I got Ubisoft to let me create and sell tutorials for example. Just gotta get it all past legal and vetted.

hybrid phoenix
#

Yep

#

It varies from place to place, from company to company and even from person to person within a given company

#

So really the only real answer is "if it's important to you, discuss it with them"

marsh stream
#

Yeah okay understood. I'll be sure to ask them and be crystal clear about the stuff I wish to make. I mean I've already started the personal project like last year but Im sure that wont make a difference .

#

Thanks for all the info guys - appreciate the responsiveness of this discord 🙏

daring cipher
# marsh stream I just got offered my first full-time job in the industry which I'm super excite...

In the CGI Studio I worked at it had a similar contract. Its often a given since they share a LOT of info with you that gives them a business advantage compared to other studios which is why they have to be able to shut you down if you end up becoming competition even if its just a "free" project on the side.

I am happy not to have worked there for a long time and never again would sign anything like it, but thats kinda ... something you can expect happening.

#

Apart from that usually you just need to talk to production and they can override those rules in the contract, let them write it down though xD

marsh stream
#

Yeah if anything pops up, I'll be sure to inquire and ask if that can be changed. If it, it is what it is 🤷 Perhaps an opportunity to expand to other hobbies 😅

shut token
#

Yeah - that's a hard no from me as well. Ain't no company out there worthy enough to bar me from doing personal projects.

#

Just screams that they don't care about personal enrichment.

honest cipher
#

its a widespread clause

#

almost every time its negotiable

#

essentially every single project ive done had that clause at first, but i convinced to get it removed

plucky hatch
#

Are C++ and Ue4 C++ similar enough that I would learn/become familiar with how to do it from a regular C++ course ?

grave cove
# plucky hatch Are C++ and Ue4 C++ similar enough that I would learn/become familiar with how t...

In general, yes. A solid understanding of C++ will do you a lot of good when it comes to writing C++ in UE4.
Usually the differences are in best practices (normally the standard library is preferred, but in UE4 you should use their versions of containers: std::vector vs TArray) and not language features. They don't have a different compiler with parts turned off for example.
UE4 adds a lot on top of C++ but isn't like a different language.

plucky hatch
daring cipher
stiff dagger
#

uhh... any professionals out there? i'm new to Unreal but i have been coding in snake_case style for now

#

but Unreal is PascalCase everywhere

#

it just doesn't fit quite right

#

i don't mind it, but would this be a problem in general jobs?

#

like, i always write

add_pack_source()

instead of

AddPackSource()
steady pewter
#

Depends on what & where you code it.

#

If you are doing something to publish into UE's marketplace -> UE guidelines

#

If you are in company or team which follows UE guidelines -> UE guidelines

#

Consistency is what matters more.

#

Otherwise, yea go snake case 🐍

#

@stiff dagger

dry hill
#

The more you diverge from the accepted paradigm, the harder it gets for you to read other people's code, and for them yours. It pays dividends to just go with what is common for a specific language or technology you work with.

#

Reduces friction 😄

#

Reduce your wtf/minute

wtf.png
steady pewter
#

Yeah, that important too. On my personal projects tho, I'm 🐍 that's what I'm doing for so many years, that I don't give af what is the framework. Also it makes it quite easy to spot which code is mine, which is not.

dry hill
#

I bend the rules a bit too

#

But mixing snake case and pascal case on the same project gives me shiverrrrs

steady pewter
#

Yeah, Pascal is ugly af

#

hehe 😏

stiff dagger
#

i just feel like snake is much more easy to read and write

#

maybe that's because i'm a ESL stoner

#

English Second Language

#

anyway thanks for the tips guys, didn't know there was a guidelines

#

the doc is kind of bad that i didn't even want to try

digital gate
#

Well nothing is stopping you from making a hybrid (abomination though it may be)

Pascal_Looking_Snake_Case

#

Wean yourself into it, if you wanna get a job in UE you're going to need to use Pascal (or be so good you can fight to change style without ruffling feathers)

turbid berry
#

so how you practice for interview?

#

usually programming interview or game developer interview

#

is there any website or any way that i can give interview to other peoples to check the level of my current skills?

plucky hatch
#

does anyone here know how i can get monetized for ads on a mobile game? i have no idea if this is the right channel to ask in

digital gate
#

is that your peak career goal?

#

How are you optimizing your resume and portfolio towards google ads approving you automatically?

plucky hatch
#

how about self employement?

placid geyser
# stiff dagger i just feel like snake is much more easy to read and write

Honestly, best advice I can think of is "be flexible in how you write code". Don't get too attached to one set of conventions nor feel like you can't change the way you organise things "because it feels uncomfortable to you". I write in personal projects pretty differently to how I write code for work. If any of my other habits bleed through into work code that gets picked up in a code review before a submission anyway. You may work as a contractor at one place using UE4 and then work somewhere else and they expect things to be completely different in terms of case, braces, tabs vs spaces etc

placid geyser
# turbid berry so how you practice for interview?

Even as a dev of 8 years exp, coming up to interviews I have a quick brush up on basics / text book style questions. Standard C++ polymorphism, inheritance vs aggregation, pointers and memory, const correctness etc, some linear algebra basics like dot product and cross product, why euler angles are less preferable to quaternions, depends on the role really. Do some research about the places you apply to in regards to the tools they've used in previous games.

You could always try applying at some places you're not so excited about to get interview experience, and you may actually end up really liking the folks you talk to and want to work with them after all.

Look at Glassdoor pages for companies you apply for as there may be interview stories / experiences written there.

As for checking level of your current skills, take a look at hacker rank, codingame etc

solemn grove
#

Would you guys say its an okay path to apply to low level QA jobs for industry experience? I graduated from a 4 year with a BA in a relative field, but just dont have enough training to find a career in game dev yet i dont think,

queen pike
hybrid phoenix
#

QA is QA, not anything else. If you want to be an artist, having experience in QA is not an in, because it has nothing to do with art. If you want to get into game design or a similar field it might be helpful, but for the most part you really shouldn't expect it to be a useful in-road for other jobs

#

Some studios might allow you to progress from QA into something else by allowing you wiggle room in responsibilities, and sometimes you'll find useful connections that can help get you a recommendation in for a junior art position or something like that

#

But I really think that's about it

leaden fulcrum
grave cove
#

@solemn grove In my experience (15yrs AAA games), I've seen a lot of QA move into production/manager and design roles. It's unusual for QA to move into engineering or art positions. Not impossible, but very unusual. But only if you're talking about the QA run by the studio itself. If it's just a places that does QA for anyone it's not going to help a resume. It's all about those connections/relationships with the studio when the opportunity comes up.

flat gazelle
#

This is my experience as well. Internal QA seem to favor the production track. Some design here and there, but rarely anything else. Outsourced QA, not so much. Never seen that move happen.

daring cipher
royal lintel
#

software engineering for QA != QA testers
you're conflating two completely unrelated positions. Someone asking about "going into QA" without programming experience is not asking about going into an SDET position and will not be on that career path unless they're already trying to be an engineer.

#

And automation is not really replacing traditional manual QA. Augmenting it for sure and changing what actually needs to be tested, but manual QA isn't going anywhere in the near future.

solemn grove
#

Hey I really appreciate this advice guys. I have always legitimately thought that QA was a route in; now seeing everything I couldn't tell you why, but I do really appreciate the words here.

#

I guess my mind is running into the trap I see alot of you discussing in this topic, I was looking for a catch all when specializing is much better

hybrid phoenix
#

For some reason the "QA is an in-road" is a bit of a self-propagating myth. I've seen it floating around a lot, and used to think it held water when I was less experienced, so I think that's mostly the circles where it's propagated, but it really doesn't hold up in practice

royal lintel
#

It might have been true once upon a time at certain studios, but these days with large studios increasingly doing outsourcing (or at least contracting out) QA staffing it's less and less likely. There's something to be said for a path from tester -> quality engineer/lead -> maybe design roles if you're on-site rather than external but it's incredibly uncommon.

flat gazelle
daring cipher
royal lintel
#

Yes, because those neural networks don't exist except for very specific situations. Show me an AI that can take instructions to execute a specific repro of a bug.

#

There are specific tasks being replaced with automation, but it largely just frees up time elsewhere.

daring cipher
royal lintel
#

and most of those tasks need to be checked over by a human anyway for triage if nothing else

#

ML is useful for tasks like picking out feature of images (which is useful for certain types of testing), but it can't magically know how to play through a level. Hand-written automation is definitely used, but usually only for specific "simple" situations. As an example, the amount of time it takes for an engineer to script a bot to use game mechanics to complete a puzzle likely isn't worth it when you could have a tester do it.

daring cipher
#

lets just say "its use case dependend" xD

royal lintel
#

that's literally what I've said

#

it's not replacing manual testing, it's moving effort to other areas

daring cipher
#

apart from that QA puts you to work in areas that are entirely disconnected from an art or programming career if you are NOT doing automation tools

daring cipher
elder mist
#

well, i'm looking at how neural networks learning to play games, so probably QA as playtester will die, and will shift towards people who can set those AI networks to playtest

craggy nacelle
#

Tbh I don't think that's gonna be the case

#

There's more to QA than just grinding through levels to see if it bugs out or something

royal lintel
#

And ML is very far off from being able to play through complex games. What happens when it has to deal with puzzle solving? Even if it can eventually figure out how to solve classes of puzzles, is it really a good use of time? What value to QA are you going to get out of it? Can you give it specific instructions for a bug repro? Can it write up how it found a bug? Can it create bugs for more than just crashes? Can it tell you when it is impossible to proceed? Can it use workarounds given by the dev team for a known issue?
ML bot automation type stuff has its place - soak testing for crashes, that kind of stuff. But "playtesting" isn't going to be killed by it until all of the questions above can be answered affirmatively.

#

There are other areas that ML is super useful in QA for outside of basic playtest automation but again - not as a complete replacement for manual methods but as additional help.

#

ML absolutely has its place in QA and will become more prominent, but saying it'll be a replacement for manual testing (or even just "playtesting") is unrealistic in my mind.

tacit siren
#

really can't wait for Ai to tell him his UI is confusing for humans

honest cipher
#

you QA people are incredibly goddamn lucky that gamedev studios suck at automated testing

#

if every game had sea of thieves or factorio scale automated testing, the jobs for QA would be much less, and kinda be just "couple inhouse guys + beta-testers"

flat gazelle
#

Not sure if that's a dig at how buggy SoT is 😛

tawny slate
#

Haven't played SoT, but in general multiplayer games are hell to test and debug

#

I don't know how far Automated Testing can get you on that front

hybrid phoenix
#

And both of them are largely tested through automated testing systems

#

Not personally experienced with SoT

flat gazelle
#

My backflipping ship and frustration at hitreg would beg to differ. But fair enough.

hybrid phoenix
#

Just initial experiences

flat gazelle
#

I play daily 😛

hybrid phoenix
#

You'll definitely be more knowledgeable on the topic than I am then 😅

flat gazelle
#

It's not Bethesda level buggy, but it's not exactly a shining beacon of bugfreeness despite being several years into live.

honest cipher
#

in the case of sea of thieves

#

its a fact they have nearly no one in QA

#

because they dont need to. THe entire game is filled on automated tests

#

its just... not enough lol

#

multiplayer games are a bitch

#

factorio straight up has no QA

#

but factorio is a marvel of true engineering, and the entire game is filled with more tests that you can count

#

it has essentially 100% test coverage, and it has tests specificalyl designed to look for bug regressions

#

plus tons of tests where they open big and weird factories and see if they work the same after N ticks

#

factorio is essentially a perfect game with no bugs right now

flat gazelle
#

I think it's an interesting topic. To stay with the Sea of Thieves examples. All sails with a glowing edge have had a broken uv/bad mask for nearly two years now. I wonder if automated tests can pick something like that up. It's not broken per se, but it's very clearly wrong.

honest cipher
#

they can, but its not something really easy to test

#

graphical issues in general are near untesteable

flat gazelle
#

But for a QA person it'd would be immediate since it fills your whole screen.

honest cipher
#

the problem is that any change to the graphics will break the test, and you need to make "golden vresion" start scene

hybrid phoenix
#

I definitely don't think human QA will be going away entirely at any point

honest cipher
#

they cant really do something like screenshot every asset in the game and compare wit the screenshots at last version

#

because any time someone tweaks a material the entire test will fire up with errors

hybrid phoenix
#

But I do think a very large chunk of gameplay testing and bug detection (and reproduction steps etc.) could be automated quite well, vastly reducing the demands on QA

honest cipher
#

one thing i like is AI testing

#

very often its almost zero effort, but gives great gains

#

an example, is that for example you have a fighting game, so you set 2 random monkeys against each other

#

just mashing buttons

#

and leave it running for a while

#

another example in the same game, is that you use AIs instead of random monkeys

#

and an even cooler one is when that AI is actually a learning reinforcement-learning AI

#

reinforcement-learning AIs will find every broken and OP thing you have in the game

#

so if you put a reinforced-learning AI to play your fighting game, they will eventually find the endless combos or broken mechanics

#

ubisoft did that in For Honor

#

and Blade and Soul MMO also did that for their PvP arenas

#

as a bonus you can reuse the reinforced learning AI for PvP bots by selecting "versions" of the AI at different training levels

#

on my shooter game, i had a semi-random AI bot that would move around the map shooting everything on sight

#

it was a huge help for a lot of enemy and gun related bug stuff, and specially for benchmarking and profiling

#

im actually going to give a talk about all this stuff in a couple days. I will share the slides once i make them

flat gazelle
# hybrid phoenix I definitely don't think human QA will be going away entirely at any point

Yeah I agree. I'd like to see the QA person that let this one through: https://www.reddit.com/r/Seaofthieves/comments/mtz4bj/thanks_a_lot_volcano/ .
The trails broke in the latest patch. Again, super hard for automated testing and even a neural net to notice, but preeeetty straightforward for a human to see. And these are super obvious examples. There are many bugs where things "feel" off/different. I have a hard time seeing that automated away.

reddit
r/Seaofthieves - Thanks a lot volcano!

92 votes and 5 comments so far on Reddit

honest cipher
#

at PUBG there was a literal army of korean testers

#

but we also had a couple "advanced" QA guys in the amsterdam office

#

their use was mostly to test the fresh features the programmers are cooking

#

so it took time from the programmers, which was pretty efficient

#

a programmer would make a feature, and obviously test it a bit while he develops, then he sends ot the QA dude who actively tries to break it as hard as possible

flat gazelle
#

Yeah, and then you get into the cobwebs of naming. QA vs QC vs Embedded vs whatever.

royal lintel
#

Automation's purpose for SoT is more about keeping their main branch stable and "potentially" shippable at any time. Making sure every single change is at least theoretically stable is something QA doesn't usually do so while their automation definitely does take some burden away from QA (in terms of checking the basics, at least) it's purpose isn't really to get rid of traditional QA either.

#

Also, +1 for monkeys and "random" bots. It's great to have those sorts of things running constantly to find random crashes or other weirdness.

#

Pain in the ass to get good repro steps for the devs though...

cosmic spindle
#

I have come to realize game development is not something you can pursue casually, if you want to make it a career, that requires 100% dedication and commitment and nearly 100% focus.

steel creek
hybrid phoenix
#

Yeah, that really isn't surprising. For some reason people tend to treat game development very differently from how other similar hobbies/professions are treated. When someone makes a couple of pieces of furniture in their spare time, or repairs their own clothes, they don't have the expectation that they'll magically be able to become a professional soon. For some reason in game development there's a very strong feeling in hobbyists that there's effectively no difference between how they approach it and how it would be if it were a professional endeavour, and that's just not the case

cosmic spindle
#

probably is true, but it's all or nothing for me, game dev is my last hope to ever make it in life.

hybrid phoenix
#

If you're trying to get into a complex field professionally without prior education, you can count on it that it's going to take boatloads of work and dedication from your side to make that work, whether that field is something like carpentry or sewing, or whether that is game development

#

Define "make it"? This sounds heavily dramaticized to me

#

Life can be tough, but there's always options, there's always alternatives. They might not quite be what you'd have been looking for, but nothing ever really is

cosmic spindle
#

Attain success. I dropped out of education without qualifactions when I was younger.

#

This is my only hope now

hybrid phoenix
#

Go back to education? Evening school?

cosmic spindle
#

Way too old for that lol

hybrid phoenix
#

Attitude tends to be just as big (if not bigger) an obstacle as education etc.

cosmic spindle
#

I am the non-recluse version of Nito Souji

hybrid phoenix
#

Never too old to get educated

steel creek
#

you dont need a degree. You need common sense and practical skills. I will hire the latter over the former every single time.

cosmic spindle
#

Well this is the only real career I'm passionate about and it's also the few careers that can be self-taught.

#

I'm 30 and have nothing to show for my life

steel creek
cosmic spindle
#

it's really all or nothing for me at this point if I want a good life

#

I will put everything into game dev

steel creek
#

Seems more a personal constraint than that of an actual life adversity, but, you gotta do you.

hybrid phoenix
cosmic spindle
#

Not really, even if I could get a 9-5 (which I can't) it would be decades before being able to own my own home etc on that trajectory starting at 30

hybrid phoenix
#

I won't discourage you from going for gamedev, but locking yourself into a box because it's the only option is never a good mindset in my experience

flat gazelle
#

Gamedev is not what I would consider an easy career, so if that's the idea, I predict a lot of painful realizations.

hybrid phoenix
#

No-one under thirty now can easily get a house

#

I'm very well off for our generation

#

And I don't exactly see how it's supposed to work either

flat gazelle
#

It took me 10+ years in gamedev to even have enough for the deposit of an apartment 😛

hybrid phoenix
#

It really sounds to me like you've very much convinced yourself of all sorts of negative sentiments and 'truths' which are holding you down

#

When in reality, if you'd unshackle yourself from those convinctions, there'd be hundreds of things you could do

cosmic spindle
#

I want to be the next Eric Barone. I'm not interested in "ordinary life" it's all or nothing

flat gazelle
#

Lol

#

Good Luck!

cosmic spindle
#

Thanks. kappa

hybrid phoenix
#

For what it's worth, Eric Barone had zero intention of being the next Eric Barone

#

He just wanted to make his game

flat gazelle
#

I wonder if there are any statistics about that level of success. At this point hitting the megajackpot in games must be lower chance than the good old Rockstar path, right?

hybrid phoenix
#

He actually didn't want to make games for a living at all, he just made them for fun

steel creek
flat gazelle
#

Sure there are many who play instruments, but few of those want to try to make it as a career whereas in gamedev, that seems quite common.

cosmic spindle
#

The game industry is much more comparible to the Film industry than Music imo

#

but with less cost of entry

flat gazelle
#

Fair enough, I wonder if that makes it better or worse. The level of success you are talking about is somewhere around B list actors. I wonder how that compares.

shut token
#

I too would like someone to take care of me for 7 years while I can work on my dream. 👍

cosmic spindle
#

Well maybe not Eric Barone level of success financially but definitely enough that I can support myself after my first game

hybrid phoenix
#

The odds are very much against you

#

It's a very hard path to walk, and the odds of success are very low

cosmic spindle
#

Depends really on your perspective on whether you believe the industry had reached peak saturation level yet, I'm not convinced it has.

hybrid phoenix
#

I'm all for people getting into gamedev to make stuff they love, but don't mislead yourself on false premises of a pleasant, stress-free work environment and stable income

#

I don't believe for a second we've reached peak saturation

#

Nowhere near

#

That doesn't mean your odds of success are any better

#

For what it's worth, I'm walking the exact path you're describing

#

But it's not an easy path

cosmic spindle
#

My personal case studies of indie games in recent years have shown me that even subpar games can be profitable, and I don't intend to release anything subpar.

hybrid phoenix
#

And the odds of it working out are really against you

#

And boatloads of great games have turned losses

shut token
#

lol - "my personal bias has shown that I can do this"

hybrid phoenix
#

Don't forget that

obsidian finch
#

I mean it depends on what you want to achieve. Success as an indie dev from the get go? It's basically a lottery ticket. Getting in the industry with a job and achieving a career? That's doable, just like any industry. Harder than some, easier than others.

cosmic spindle
shut token
#

For every "success" that you actually see, there are 100's of unsuccessful.

hybrid phoenix
#

^

#

I'm referring to odds, not whether it's possible at all

shut token
#

There are absolute gems of games that are never heard of.

flat gazelle
#

Not that the above are for the games that actually manage to launch on steam. That in itself is a tiny percentage.

cosmic spindle
hybrid phoenix
shut token
#

Some, sure. But when we're talk about business and Indie - it is obvious that we're talking about Steam.

hybrid phoenix
#

Look at the thing Partikel just posted

#

Out of games that actually finish development and release on Steam (which is already a tiny fraction of games that are intended to release on Steam - most die before they release)

shut token
#

most die before they release
Why you gotta attack me like that 😛

hybrid phoenix
#

20% makes more than a single year's salary

#

I'm in the same boat

#

Seven years, zero released titles

cosmic spindle
#

I'm aware of the stats and figures. Honestly anything over $50k+ for my first game I'd consider a "success", i'll let the public decide what level it reaches. But I definitely don't intend to spend 7 years on my first game, 2 at the max. BTW I'm not here to argue and I HEAR YOU. Game dev is no walk in the park. Now I must get back to Unreal Online Learning 😛

hybrid phoenix
#

$50k+ is one in five odds on a game that releases on Steam , and most of those games are not first-timers

cosmic spindle
#

i'm not such a big fan of Steam to be fair. I intend to go for the Epic Store

hybrid phoenix
#

You're saying "I hear you" but at the same time you're continuing to argue against the point

#

Lol

shut token
#

Oh damn - you're really not trying to be successful, huh?

hybrid phoenix
#

You can't even release on the Epic Store without Epic asking you

shut token
#

It is much much much harder to be successful as an indie on Epic's store.

hybrid phoenix
#

EGS only makes sense if they pay you for exclusivity

#

And glhf getting them to do that

#

Anyhoo everything you need to make a sane judgement is in this chat already

cosmic spindle
hybrid phoenix
#

Don't think there's really anything useful to add

flat gazelle
#

This is a more reasonable view on going indie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmwbYl6f11c

YouTube
GDC
How to Survive in Gamedev for Eleven Years Without a Hit

In this 2016 GDC Talk, Grey Alien Games' Jake Birkett explains how to survive as an independent game developer without having a single hit game.

GDC talks cover a range of developmental topics including game design, programming, audio, visual arts, business management, production, online games, and much more. We post a fresh GDC video every we...

▶ Play video
hybrid phoenix
#

Something being your dream doesn't make it any more tenable

steel creek
cosmic spindle
hybrid phoenix
#

if*

#

You're saying the things I said eight years ago

cosmic spindle
#

dissuasion just motivates me more

obsidian finch
#

I love these guys. Every once in a while you get someone with zero experience, zero relevant background and knowledge beyond they like games and think yea I can make a game that makes over 50k in 2 years with zero budget and knowledge. I'm like, why would you believe something like that? What sense does that make?

steel creek
flat gazelle
#

As long as its an action rpg mmo with deep crafting systems and 100s of hours of gameplay

hybrid phoenix
#

I'm dissuading him more so he's more motivated to get that game out so I can play it

cosmic spindle
flat gazelle
#

2043

steel creek
#

"Beta by September" -- interesting game title. Sounds like a sidescroller, spy shooter

#

lemme guess, the protagonist is Alpha

obsidian finch
#

And if you try to give them reasonable advice they just ignore it and then go fail anyway and forget about gamedev until a few years pass and they want to do it again, yet learned nothing in the years between

flat gazelle
#

Could be a spiritual sequel to budget cuts

hybrid phoenix
#

Lol

cosmic spindle
#

No it's a fully open world, survival horror game, with a semi-linear single player story and seperate multiplayer game mode.

flat gazelle
#

Hehe, boshy, it's a troll. Nobody actually thinks thus way. Just a bit of fun :p

obsidian finch
#

@flat gazelle People do think that way. I'd say a large part of my customers are like that. I can't complain though. I do make my living selling stuff to hopeful gamedevs, but sometimes I'd wish they would listen 😦

hybrid phoenix
#

^

steel creek
digital gate
obsidian finch
#

Even so, I do prefer to work with people that know their limitation and scope, instead of getting asked can I make a AAA isometric MMORPG using your stuff. I don't know can you?

steel creek
#

haha! why you bringing up the DreamWorlds project lul3D

remote saffron
#

well

obsidian finch
#

speaking of

#

they actually do use some of my stuff

#

😄

remote saffron
#

they eventually learn or give up

#

nobody can develop their dream game ™️ during their entire life
but there will always be someone at that stage so I guess we better get used to it 😆

cosmic spindle
# digital gate Not alpha? You about to have no features lmao

I'm just going to go on a "crunch" until September and see just how much I can get done by then. Most of the systems I have actually already have from the marketplace, i just need to customize them, the game is more "exploration" focused then "feature packed" so there is only a few "core systems" I need to lock down, then I just need to add world assets and cutscenes, the A.I and multiplayer co-op seperate game-mode will be the last I work on.

remote saffron
#

well good luck

digital gate
#

Seems like an alpha to me

#

but if that's your beta, maybe stare really really hard at the stats some more

dry hill
#

multiplayer co-op seperate game-mode will be the last I work on.
Yikes

cosmic spindle
#

I am going for full photorealism. I plan to use Quixel and MetaHuman Creator.

hybrid phoenix
#

If you're doing multiplayer, do multiplayer from the start

steel creek
hybrid phoenix
#

Singleplayer architecture does not translate to multipalyer

remote saffron
#

if you're doing multiplayer do a singleplayer game first because multiplayer is even harder

#

probably better not to start with that

digital gate
#

that's two separate games

flat gazelle
#

Can we stop feeding the troll?

digital gate
#

no is fun and might benefit someone searching some things

hybrid phoenix
#

Don't you see, Glad

#

We're having fun!

cosmic spindle
remote saffron
#

🤦‍♂️

digital gate
#

if you can architect that by September go for it

flat gazelle
#

But it's not even a unique troll. Its just the generic memes like ,just add multiplayer.

#

In my day.... ;)

digital gate
#

yeah

#

it's already getting boring

cosmic spindle
#

I actually feel like I'm being reverse-trolled

remote saffron
#

when you say it is a troll do you assume that the ignorance is a lie?
or can you be a troll simply by being overly optimistic and having no idea about what your plans would take?

shut token
cosmic spindle
#

Don't tell me how MP works or doesn't work please.

#

I'm talking about art assets not code

digital gate
#

I think the extrema gives it away:

"We think you're at the level you need to do a basic game before your main project"

"Nah, I'm gonna do more modular than star citizen"

cosmic spindle
#

multiplayer mode is self-contained in it's own level

shut token
#

The code part is the difficult part for MP. You don't just plop in art assets and friggin' assume that it's just going to work

cosmic spindle
#

why wouldn't static meshes work in both levels?

obsidian finch
#

Will it feature science based dragons?

cosmic spindle
#

no but will have physics based ocean

flat gazelle
shut token
#

We're not even talking the same language at this point. Good luck - have fun.

obsidian finch
#

Idk, ocean != dragon

digital gate
#

if I can't transmog the ocean into a dragon I don't want the game

remote saffron
flat gazelle
#

I'm ok with that. Less scary :p

remote saffron
#

True

cosmic spindle
#

I believe sometimes when someones own worldview of whats possible is challenged they have a tendency to write others off as a troll because it makes them insecure. On that note I won't participate in this discussion any further as I don't feel is helpful to others. I used Barone as an example because of what possible as a self-taught solo developer and he is around my age. I always believe that it's better to shoot for the moon instead of limiting to non-ambitious projects.

royal lintel
#

Most people don't understand what it takes to make pretty much any sort of game. Being around people who do can warp your view of what most people actually know.

digital gate
#

@cosmic spindle plans for when the game sells 20 copies total?

remote saffron
digital gate
remote saffron
digital gate
#

Technically possible and feasible for you are two vastly different things

flat gazelle
#

See!

#

He had me until name dropping Barone

digital gate
flat gazelle
#

Anyone who actually knows this little about gamedev would only know the nickname.

#

Concerned something or other

obsidian finch
#

Tbh I've been in gamedev for 10 years now and I had no idea who he was until I googled him a few mins ago

remote saffron
#

same but it is just 6 years for me so I guess that's better 😆

flat gazelle
#

Exactly.

#

It's not an everyday name

obsidian finch
#

I mean gamedev is not really a namedrop industry for the most part. Besides a few of the older household names, the only names I know are the ones of people i've worked with

flat gazelle
#

I would have gone with wright, carmack or Notch.

#

For plausibility

#

Trollkng used to take finesse...

obsidian finch
#

sounds more like molyneux to me

remote saffron
#

from that three I only knew carmack and notch

digital gate
#

Notch probably would have been perfect

remote saffron
#

and molyneux is kinda a negative example

digital gate
#

Why are we educating the troll though?

flat gazelle
#

Will wright might not be as big these days...

remote saffron
#

so it would be not good for plausibility

obsidian finch
#

though appropriate for this situation

flat gazelle
#

My age is showing

shut token
#

Gabe, Tim, Carmack, Romero, Wright, Sid Meier.... uhhh - that's all I can think of really.

#

(Actual names btw - not online handles)

south mural
#

Hey guys where would you go to find a mentor I guess, I tried learning on my own but its slow going and I have a game idea I dont wanna give up on. Any suggestions?

digital gate
digital gate
#

@south mural also you can just ask stuff

that's kinda what we do here

scarlet bloom
#

how do you guys get by the inital hurdle of having a project you want to make but knowing it's big and there are pieces you have no idea how to do

#

because every time i open this file i look at it for 10 minutes and just giv eup

shut token
#

I don't think this question is suitable for #career-chat personally. But for me - I just pick the thing I'm most interested in and work on that first. Baby steps.

scarlet bloom
#

yeah just it wasn't unreal specific

stuck holly
# hybrid phoenix Seven years, zero released titles

Interesting, why do you think you never got to release a title? Is it that you kept moving the goal posts and were never satisfied with something?
Asking because I'm pretty new to gamedev (working as a SW dev, but not for games), considering on maybe trying to get into it with a business focus. I got one failed startup on my back (non-gamedev) so I know the odds of success are small lol.
So I'm wondering if you've been learning for 7 years then you must have gained a lot of knowledge already. Surely you must be capable of releasing a game even if it doesn't earn you money right from the get go.

hybrid phoenix
#

Two reasons that sort of mesh together

#

I'm very ambitious and perfectionistic

#

And I have a relatively short attention span; doing the same thing for a year bores me

#

I do better working on multiple different projects, but the problem is that as soon as you do that, you'll end up side-tracking one of them to work on another

#

And so the cycle continues and you never finish anything

#

I've learned boatloads, because I've basically been doing this as a full-time job (or even more than that) ever since I started, so I'm now at a point where I'm more than capable of producing pretty much an entire game (except art assets outside of the engine) by myself without any major issues

#

I'm also qualified enough to have well-paid positions in a niche segment of the industry for a living, which is my day-to-day

stuck holly
#

Hmm, maybe you're doing gamedev more for yourself than you do it for the player experience?
Because that's something I realized during my day-to-day job as a SW dev. I like coding not because I want to satisfy our customers but actually only because I like solving riddles, clean coding, architecture which doesn't always directly relate to customer satisfaction.

#

Nice artstation, you're miles ahead of me lol

hybrid phoenix
#

Oh no, I love making games so people can play them

#

I'm just waaay too perfectionistic

#

So I can stuff before it sees the light of day

#

(Amplified by my desire to just go work on other stuff in the first place)

stuck holly
#

Ah ok, now I understand :). Currently I can't even afford to be perfectionistic lol, can barely get anything done in UE haha

#

Regarding the conversation with the guy who wants to make it big in gamedev, further up. Honestly, I don't think anybody can get around this stage where you VASTLY overestimate your own skill/talent and underestimate how hard it actually is to make anything meaningful and also how small the odds are even if you do everything right. I guess it's best to just let people run straight into a wall as fast and painful as possible so the learning process can begin LUL

wary idol
#

Even if you point out to a beginner how difficult producing an actual working game is and how much it's outside of their current skillset they still won't believe you and gonna try anyway. But that's a good thing, no better way to learn than from your own mistakes.

hybrid phoenix
#

Somewhat agree, but at the same time there's definitely cases where people actually listen and take useful lessons/information from the conversation

#

Varies from one person to the next

kindred mason
#

In the end, people are just going to do whatever they want

kindred mason
# stuck holly Ah ok, now I understand :). Currently I can't even afford to be perfectionistic ...

Most people can't afford that. Even on my very "simple" title I am currently working on, I have made countless sacrifices over the past few years to ensure 1) I was not going to be working on this game for 5 years (no one's got time for that with no proper funding, although a successful Kickstarter and MegaGrant did help), 2) I would not burn out (although I do the occasional gamejam to relieve some of that), 3) So I wouldn't stress over every little thing, keeping my sanity/mental health at an effective level (notice I did not say healthy, as that's subjective IMHO)

stuck holly
#

or is MVP == alpha version in gamedev?

digital gate
#

MVP is closer to a RC

flat gazelle
#

An alpha isn't viable

digital gate
#

the leanest possible version of the game is a PoC and could be used to fund pre-alpha dev

kindred mason
#

I was like... what's a Person of Color have anything to do with it...

#

But you mean "Proof Of Concept", which I've never seen abbreviated like that before I guess 🙂

digital gate
#

ah fair

#

leaving it as is. That being said Person of Color I've also seen capsd or all lowercase

kindred mason
# stuck holly Regarding (1), is there anything like a lean startup method in gamedev? I mean t...

So, here was my situation, and obviously not everyone's going to be like me:

A) Military Veteran on Disability ( get a monthly check from Uncle Sam). As such, my burn rate is low, because I don't have to pay myself at all/that much from the Business end. (But this actually causes some other issues later when pitching, so be careful of this)
B) I had been freelancing for two years and shipped one title (for another company) before starting my own business. So I had a good idea of what it took to ship something with a team.
C) I continued taking contract work while starting out with my first title for the company (Neko Ghost, Jump! https://nekoghostjump.com/), this money was going straight into the business account.
D) Everyone (except anyone coming in now because release is near), is on a profit(rev/royalty)-share contract. So burnrate again, is low because of this.
E) While it has had it's up and down with team structure (had a tough time keeping a sound dev for awhile, and recently an animator), my current teammates are great.
F) I already had a Proof of Concept due to the game starting out as a gamejam submission: https://victorburgos.itch.io/neko-ghost-jump-game-jam

So that's that from the start I guess. Somehow I was able to also secure additional funding through a Kickstarter https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/burgosgames/neko-ghost-jump ($20K) and a MegaGrant (more $, but this took 1.5 years for me... so your mileage may vary there in regards to $ and response time)

Recently, sort of anyway... announced... but we'll be not only shipping on **Steam **for the PC, but also the Epic Games Store.

stuck holly
kindred mason
# stuck holly Thank you for sharing your story, looks like you did really well and your future...

No problem. Something I didn't mention, was I do have a GameDev degree from Savannah College of Art and Design (did that after the Marines).

I do think that for most people, it would be smart to start off freelancing, get your feet wet, see how deliverables work, get a feel for your time management skill, improving upon them. One thing to remember regardless...

Don't be afraid of failure/rejection, it's a natural part of all this... I see a lot of people giving up for various reasons, but IMHO in this industry (mainly indiedev, especially true for solo-dev) requires some tenacity and perseverance. The first year of the project was very scary and troubling...but then things started to click into place... So that's my last bit of advice... don't give up on anything you do. Learn from your mistakes, you're bound to do a bunch of them...you're human afterall.

stuck holly
fickle hatch
# stuck holly Regarding (1), is there anything like a lean startup method in gamedev? I mean t...

I've been running a kind of a perfectionist project with very steep starting cost. Initially, me and my business partner just did a toooon of management and technical work to set up the basis and create workflows and everything. It was a very steep initial investment, but it paid off with the remainder bulk of work being done in a very straightforward, consistent and high quality way for cheap

#

I can't say it was a good or a bad approach. It's working out for the current project, but because of the sheer number of man-hours, it's taking a long time to develop. I'd describe this approach as smoldering, low-intensity low-cost high-technological development over a long period of time

#

Very low burn rate, but this isn't about saving total cost. It was just the only way to do a complex project with a tiny team

#

Don't know if this is any relevant though, just random thoughts

#

The key thought from me is:

  1. Document everything you do, preserve every bit of work you ever do on the project
  2. Make sure to catalog your work well. At least in some way, there should be a high-level organization to all of the effort you've ever spent on the project
  3. Document even things like the sequence of steps you usually take for production of assets - the documentation of how you made assets can be used as a base to set up a workflow for the project
  4. This all ultimately helps in work-related ways (by just giving a solid reference on what you've done, what mistakes you've made, what you got right), but also importantly provides a basis to build a strong case for an investor/for finding partnerships with people where you both can work towards the final goal under lenient conditions
#

It is better to simply put all of your documented results into one big pile than not doing anything at all. If putting stuff into neat categories and such is too much of an overhead, put them all into one category. But always preserve all the notes, work, try to be diligent in documenting all the aspects. You can meet a person who gets interested in you randomly any moment (must keep doing networking), it is much more impressive to people when you actually have your stuff together

#

There is no way to go around the ultimate cost of making a project - a $300,000 game will 'cost' $300,000 in one form or another. But humans love to work if their work matters. Having a solid basis from which work is done is extremely appealing and if you're seeking ways to make a game low cost, some people can provide extra effort and time and you can replace the demand for raw monetary resources with human labor provided consensually and with personal interest

somber brook
#

Really worthwhile info there!^ Was going to ask something but realized you probably had a bunch of text incoming 😛

#

So here i go now:

fickle hatch
#

Ask away!

somber brook
#

I recently applied for a position (mid level), I'm a game designer with 5+ years of experience myself.

The position mentioned a contract but I'm interested because it's an opportunity to work on a new IP.

I've gone through 2 rounds of interviews and am on the panel interviews with some team members + the creative director next.
In the company's interview accompanying webpage - where I can track my interview dates and times it lists the position as an associate designer position.

Now, from my initial interview with the Lead, he had the understanding that my experience was more aligned with this role (but not the position aka associate) and he was aware that I had multiple years of experience already (and that I already have gone from Associate to Game Designer position myself)

Just wondering how best I should broach this topic to clarify my circumstances, without giving a negative perception. I like the opportunity but I obviously don't want to go in as an associate designer. I do believe that position description is simply for reference and my relative position would indeed be mid-level instead but I guess I just want some more clarity/certainty?

I was thinking something along the lines of: "I'm very interested in the opportunity and am looking at this long term. Considering my next step would be senior designer, will this potentially be something that could work to putting me in that direction? I am not looking for guarantees, but I just want to clarify so I know I'm placing myself on the right path towards my goals"

kindred mason
# somber brook I recently applied for a position (mid level), I'm a game designer with 5+ years...

Looks good, I don't think anyone would have a problem with you asking for clarity. If you applied for a Mid-level game design position, it should state that as your title. Now if you applied for a position and it states "associate" (entry basically for all intents and purposes), you need to make them either change that title (obviously ask them nicely), or think twice about moving forward if you really want to jump to the next level (Senior)... of course... there's no saying that you can't jump up within the same company... but that's a risk.

Titles aren't a 1:1, every company has their own title structure though. The thing that most people will care about is that experience. But, if you want to be "senior/lead" material, you need to be doing some of that stuff beforehand.

fickle hatch
#

Hmm. I don't have an answer to your question, but a company that does not put people into positions based on merit is not something interesting to me. I've actually never had a proper job title, my official title always ended up being something irrelevant - I would be hired for one thing, but after the initial term (few months) I would find my application in the company in different ways, usually ending up in-between different positions. The initial term you spend at the company will be sub-efficient in any case and it would be rude (in my opinion) to try and take the helms right away.

A conversation about path ahead and about the real problems you need to be solving seems appropriate, but in my case I just sorta follow intuition with these things. The question you've posed seems reasonable, but you're the one who knows the most context about the place you're applying to. My questions would start with something similar and drift off into trying to figure out what exactly the company needs and if there is actually a potential spot for me to move towards what I want

somber brook
#

Yeah I dont mind not mentioning Sr. Designer, I suppose I was saying that with the perspective that the only way sr. designer would be my next step is if im already mid level yes?

kindred mason
#

Well, depends on the company.

somber brook
#

The lead already answered that he's not necessarily the one choosing it to be a contract position. And that there will be opportunities to learn and grow

kindred mason
#

Some don't put too much emphasis on titles, others do 🙂

fickle hatch
#

Because if the company clearly needs just 1 person of a specific role, even though you fit that role, there might simply be no 'slot' to insert you into even if everyone wants to. Just not rational from the spending of resources point of view. So keep in mind that depending on the size of a company, the impact of an individual position might be high or low - there might not be a path to move upwards even though everyone wants it, because there isn't a way to utilize you in that position

somber brook
#

Right, I'm not even super worried about the title, however, from a professional career perspective, setting the board with my current position would be an obviously better start than an associate position

kindred mason
fickle hatch
#

So idk, my random thought here is try to talk to the lead to understand how the company can utilize your skills. It may very well turn out that once you start talking more and more about it, a sense of discomfort appears where you realize that the company probably can't utilize you well enough and that they might not have the confidence to answer your question

somber brook
#

hmm

#

I suppose I could also communicate my experience mentoring junior and new additions to our team in my previous positions

kindred mason
#

"Good deal" = cheap labor for the experience 🙂

somber brook
#

along with experience in being the lead designer on features (even though i wasn't lead designer by title)

kindred mason
#

Yeah, you should definitely negotiate the contract, making sure to put everything you can in there so that you can do what you want to be doing in 3-5 years from now.

#

You definitely want the experience if you want to be leading a team in the future. There's only one way to do that and that's by actually doing it (with oversight for now).

#

Just my two cents though 🙂

somber brook
#

Yeah, so to bring it home: "I'd like to learn how this opportunity will lead to a longer term prospect and career growth"

#

vs mentioning the sr. designer portion. What do you guys think?

fickle hatch
#

I think if you ask that, you would be able to tell a lot intuitively by the way they approach answering it

#

If they can easily give an answer or it feels like they are sorta making it up as they go

kindred mason
#

Yup, if it's the latter... think very carefully if you want to take the chance on it.

somber brook
#

Sounds good 🙂 Def. feels a bit better than directly mentioning the sr. position

kindred mason
#

Honestly, there's a crapton of jobs out there, many opportunities, especially if you already have the experience.

fickle hatch
#

I think the title name ultimately doesn't matter, only the real ability for the company to utilize you in that position that does

somber brook
#

(I do want to clarify that I'm not asking for a sr. designer position, but using that as clarification that I'm mid-level). But it could be easily lost amidst the conversation

fickle hatch
#

If the company cannot utilize you in that position, then no matter how much you do stuff, you can only end up with a formal title of "Sr Designer"

#

If the company cannot utilize you as a sr designer, you will be sr designer in the name, but doing assorted random crap in your day to day work

#

So if you get the sense that the company is 'making it up as they go' and there is no sense they can utilize you well, then even if they say "yeah there's totally a path forward, you can work here for maybe 3-7 months and then we can put you into sr designer position", even if that's honest and true, if their working process is disorganized or doesn't really permit a role like that, the result can be having the title you want, but not getting the experience that matters

#

But ultimately, you can see the picture best. Follow your heart but think about every move, read the contract, if anything feels like it's being left out and just implied, ask questions and negotiate until it becomes real and tangible

somber brook
#

Understood. Thanks for the clarification!

#

Really helps 🙂

#

Also, minor thing, but I noticed the company just put up a mid level position up which is not a contract. I just applied

#

Really feeling like i'm in multiple places here, but I guess I'll do my best with these interviews. And prove to them that I'm worth while. I assume I can always ask to get onto another project later.

#

I'm in touch with the HR. Should I ask them about this? I assume I should wait until I've successfully cleared these interviews to do so

floral bough
# stuck holly Hmm, maybe you're doing gamedev more for yourself than you do it for the player ...

I'm software developer too (not game developer) with 15 years experience and that you're saying it's very interesting. I can see myself in that sentence, that's why I love this job, there's almost no repetitive tasks in our job, everyday it's a new challenge. Now I'm started developing with UE I can see clearly why I don't have any interest in publishing anything; I love the process of making something, not so much enjoying it. I see a lot of newcomers to UE with the target in publishing, that's why steam it's literally full of crap. To me develop with UE it's an experience itself, and one I enjoy. Maybe some years later I'll be sure to sell something of enough quality.

west surge
#

Hey all, this isn't nearly as fancy as the above discussion but I was wondering how people deal with their own projects being or feeling stagnant? for instance I have been making a really detailed model of a train, inside and out, I've been doing both to put into UE4 to develop my skills (3D artist/generalist) but also to make it 3D printable (as I like making kits like that)

However recently I look at it all and wonder what's the point, there's limitations to the 3D print side which might be me just realizing the limitations of it etc.

I think maybe I'm just in a "swing" and things might change, I don't want to leave this somewhat massive project alone and jump on to something else as I often do.

Also I feel a big part of my worry is for future stability, I fear everything I do must have a more direct link to my career (3D artist in UE4) because any other 3D artist roles outside of game engine seems to be very outsourced or freelance and I worry about that (having a wife and kid etc)

green oyster
#

I think theres hardly a point in making something for UE4 AND for 3d printing, its either that or the other: game optimized model using current techniques OR for something for 3D printing (all together different). I am sure if you pick one you will find motivation. You can also keep the 3d printing on the side for fun (not related to UE)

rare bough
#

Well I think about making a game and I got some people to help also I plan on making lots of more games for the future so I might start a business for small games

pure flame
#

I would think free marketplace maps that have been released over the months would be a good starter?

#

Better than nothing, but also you can explain in the video that the map is placeholder.

#

Or, invest enough money to get a base that fits your game type. Bare bones cheap but better than marketplace.

fickle hatch
#

Sadly your question requires some artistic input no matter how you approach it. Someone has to design some pretty levels. But using and adapting marketplace assets sounds ideal

waxen thicket
#

Hi I am a web dev and I am looking for a small project is Manny only for hiring?

versed mural
#

What is the path like to becoming a tech artist? How achievable is getting a job and how quick can one build a resume or skill set to get one?

hybrid phoenix
#

Assuming zero experience, it's not a field to aim for, imo. Technical Art involves having meaningful experience as an artist as well as in programming, which "by definition" makes it one of the hardest positions to quickly build a resume or relevant skills for. Junior tech-art is very rare, and when it does exist it's generally not "first industry job" kind of junior, but "first time being doing tech art professionally" kind of junior

ashen lynx
#

Path to becoming tech artist is like walking in magnificent garden and noticing a small, cozy hut in the distance. You approach the hut, it looks old and abandoned, no doors no windows. You go around and notice a trap door leading into the basement. Curiosity takes over, you open it, take few steps down the stairway into the darkness when suddenly, stairs collapse and you start falling into bottomless void, screaming FUUUU on your way down. Still falling... @versed mural

pastel estuary
#

^

steady pewter
#

!roll 1 d20

vagrant brambleBOT
#

@steady pewter, :game_die: 19

steady pewter
#

... while failing in the abyss, a phoenix bird approaches out of nowhere and you land on its back.

#

That was good roll, I mean.

pastel estuary
#

odd that Manny can reply in this channel?
*nudges @tawny kayak

hybrid phoenix
#

Goddarnit that made me laugh out loud while in a meeting

tawny kayak
#

I don't see a problem with Manny being accessible in this channel. That being said, @steady pewter that was funny but off topic. 😉

steady pewter
#

I guess I was slacking off 🤔

flat gazelle
#

If you roll a Nat 20 you end up a VFX artist.

versed mural
#

My experience is low level art fundamentals if that means anything

#

Haha

jovial night
#

I can not see any job postings in discord Job Board channels. All I see are one line posts by Manny. Anyone know why this is happening or how to fix it?

pastel estuary
#

@jovial night odd, could you dm Pfist with some info (and a screenshot)?

fickle hatch
#

Well, that's mostly a joke. There are different ways to approach it. All as said earlier are non-trivial ways

hybrid phoenix
#

As a general answer; go into whatever field you enjoy working in. Try a bunch of different things, and spend your time in the thing you enjoy and/or excel at

versed mural
#

No. I have only studied traditional art.

hybrid phoenix
#

Right

#

Well

versed mural
#

Just wanted to explore

hybrid phoenix
#

There's not much sense trying to get a programmer to do art, or the other way around

#

There's exceptions to that, which is how you roll into technical art

#

But that happens organically

#

So try the stuff you're interested in

#

And then continue the stuff you like

#

And whatever field that is is the field I'd recommend aiming for when starting out

versed mural
#

Awesome

#

Thanks for the advice.

#

I also want to get involved in game jams

#

Have game jams been happening remotely?

hybrid phoenix
#

Many do

#

I.e. Ludum Dare

#

Which is currently running

#

Plenty of remote jams

versed mural
#

Ah ok

#

That's a great resource thanks

wary idol
#

Try to get into a field you like, if you end up specializing in a field you don't like it won't be a good experience

I first started with art and moved into programming soon after because I found it way more enjoyable and interesting to me, and pretty much been doing programming since then

The point is if you are not sure what you want to do you will have to experiment a bit

versed mural
#

@wary idol Awesome. Yea, it's most important to enjoy what I am doing.

serene pasture
#

Hi, Anyone available to answer my questions about Unreal Engine?

craggy nacelle
serene pasture
#

lol ok

steel creek
#

but also ask in the place that is appropriate. This is a channel for career questions, not unreal engine.

steep frost
#

hello so im interested in trying to get in the industry im working on a proof of concept right now and ive tried to make a demo before my question is is it worth it for me to work on demos or PoC's or wouldit be more worth my time to try and specialize in like 3d or programming and join a random team?

spice dagger
#

Its useful early on to get a general sense of what it takes to create a game or product. You might find throughout the process that what you thought was what you wanted to specialize in (maybe VFX Artist) isnt what you truely became passionate about (perhaps you fell in love with Gameplay Programming instead).

#

You also will need to build a portfolio.

#

None of what you learn along the way will be a waste of time, it is all valuable knowledge, even if you end up specializing in something completely different to the majority of what you were doing to create that demo.

steep frost
#

ok another question would be if i do manage to make a good PoC or demo what would be a good way to get publishers/developer to look at and fund it?

spice dagger
#

You would have to approach them and find out.

#

If your new to the industry, id hone your skills first before throwing your first Demo infront of potential investors.

#

That will most likely be a waste of time.

#

Making games isnt easy, or cheap. Usually you will need to have something unique or mostly already finished before investors will be interested.

digital gate
#

part of that is knowing what a good PoC even entails

#

if you actually do strike gold, you don't want to come in with an awkward stance

#

I would leave the pitching (towards publishers) to more experienced devs, but it might be worth having a portfolio to form teams or get a job

#

one man projects need a really strong design and vision, usually contract some of the work out anyway

fickle hatch
#

Also having interested investors is a great sign, but don't pick the first deal just because it sounds absolutely perfect - unless you're well experienced in making these types of deals

torn thunder
#

Small game studios with no revenue how did you find/hire artists ?

hybrid phoenix
#

With great difficulty

pure kettle
#

Of course, by no revenue, I mean coming from my own pocket.

torn thunder
#

what social media ?

green oyster
#

artstation?

hybrid phoenix
#

If all you have is a project pitch, you need to make friends

#

That's where I got my artists

#

Been doing stuff with them for the better part of a decade on a casual basis

#

Now do stuff with them on a serious basis

#

Only reason any competent artist will ever sign up to work with you for free is because they know and like you (or the project, in the case of i.e. doing stuff for educating kids or similar sympathetic but poorly paid things)

kindred mason
# torn thunder Small game studios with no revenue how did you find/hire artists ?

A good plan, some persistence and a bit of luck IMHO.

While friendships can't hurt, there's a risk involved, especially that things can get sour for xyz reason.

Add to that, that eventually someone is going to have to actually take ownership (business side) and spend some kind of money unless you get really luck with virality and finding people, maybe funding backer.

Biggest thing to remember, no matter who you find, have yourself a solid contract and make sure you're squared away legally before getting them on board.

And keep the communications as transparent as possible with your team.

For me and Neko Ghost, Jump!, I had found a few from game jams, the bulk came from FB groups, Discord and UE forums. A few paid job posts got some traffic as well.

digital gate
#

I guess it depends on what you're using as "friend" here. Close acquaintance? Probably okay to work with on serious/commercial projects. Best friend? Not a good idea.

You have to introduce the current relationship with the person as a possible cost in the exchange.

If you're the sort of person good at getting lots of close acquaintances, might be okay to risk it.

Hard agree on the legal thing though, that is a requirement before breaking ground.

pure kettle
# torn thunder what social media ?

For me, it's Twitter and Facebook.
It's from the last thing you'd think, but granted, the artists I managed to get on board are Eastern ones and from an anime circle that I'm part of, which post their works on both platform as opposed to ArtStation, and have accepted to work under closed source NDA. So, no spoiling unless I say so.

Depending on your project style and where they come from, your mileage may vary. Western artists that sports more towards realistic stuff are more common in dedicated platforms like ArtStation.

west surge
#

Not sure if this is the right place but I want to ask opinions on how to deal with something at work.

#

The animator we have has made assets that he animates, so I assumed they would be unwrapped and optimised, however they are often high poly and a mess, talking 7k polys for a cup. I am the 3D artist, he's the Animator, I can't do the animations he is doing (its also not my job) but these assets might start to cause problems, I can easily remake the static meshes myself but any skeletal meshes can't be remade by me.

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Also I guess while I'm at it, I've noticed many of the devs I work with will state that a task is not in their role, I am very generalist in UE4, when I'm asked to make a menu system I will try it, or a blueprint system for something but I have known very able devs to say to the management that its the job of a lighting artist, or a UX designer etc...

Should I embrace that same attitude or continue trying my hand at whatever is needed to try and support the company without paying outrageous costs for freelancers?

shut tree
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if the rig he animates is really trash stuff needs to be halted and looked at

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retopo reweight can renders all animations useless

west surge
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His animations seem fine as far as I know. But TBH I know so little about Max animation, nobody seems to use CAT and so little information regarding animating for games in max.

This is for mobile VR also so we are talking every poly counts.

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Well, I can rig, skin and animate in max, but I'd not say I am a professional at it.

shut tree
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first u model and than u rig the bones, you dont want to get to i have the bones now make a mesh around it

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a teacup and animated mesh is a dif thing tho cant really compare

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its more the lineflow than vertcount

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large movement like walk jump can be ported, if you do face anims on a custom mesh and u retopo those prolly have to be redone aswell

sage vigil
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How to get into the industry
What is expected of you if you want to become a programmer

cold bear
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How does people not suicide while being at uni or college, im doing a bachelors at comp sci and I really need a glock

digital gate
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depends entirely on the studio. At a minimum I expect I could give you a task and a blank project and you could give me the mechanic inside of a day or two.

then I could give you another mechanic and you can add it to your first mechanic within a day or two.

digital gate
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I don't mean you have to be able to do it all without any googling either, but copying tutorials "by rote" isn't what I mean either.

It's a little subtle what I mean by self sufficiency.

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In a real project you may just use marketplace assets for the sake of time constraints, but you should still have the technical capacity to do without them

west surge
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@shut tree I understand that. I just wonder about this "gap" in the process that might cause issues for the devs later on down the line. But again, maybe I am worrying about the company and not about my place in it. As far as I know I am doing what they want of me and more.

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It just feels odd to have people saying something isn't in their job and not do it or try in order to help the company.

shut tree
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i know nothing about anything goin on there

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can talk with the animator if you think there is a problem

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prolly dont wunna change ur own attitude for company policy

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stuff is not ever goin to be perfect so also keep that in mind

west surge
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Yeah I have said I remodelled some things he made because of the polys and we are just facing the issue now about his high poly skeletal meshes, but there is a new head developer starting soon so he may well manage things better.

shut tree
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working product is goin to count

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on a limited budget corners wil be cut

west surge
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@shut tree true but we are talking several thousand polys to something that can consist of 200. But you're right, if it works.

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I know my textures could be better for instance.

shut tree
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on static stuff u dont need to retopo, just use some remesh thing

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unreal has LOD vert reduction stuff

west surge
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I know all that. I am just worried about the somewhat large lack of ability on his side to make an asset before starting to animate.

sage vigil
pure kettle
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Most average mobile devices are comparable to PlayStation 2 kind of power, you don't really have to worry about poly count. At least to certain extent.

Genshin Impact (a Unity game) is notorious for being the "Crysis" of mobile gaming, because the characters and props have excessive poly count, and have sub-optimal kind of LOD management.

flat gazelle
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Wait, we didn't have to care about polycounts back on PS2?

hybrid phoenix
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PS2 was definitely pre-"don't worry about tri-count"