#career-chat

1 messages · Page 87 of 1

placid bridge
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Where I don't agree is the fact that you think you automatically think you deserve to be helped. Society is subjective and culture is a trend. You can't expect everything to conform to fit your situation. As for the other comparisons with social justice opinions, you are in the culture/tech industry so you can only expect there to be a lot of social conformity and perhaps less understanding of an outside opinion No offence to you others, but he kind of has a point except that he pretty bad at phrasing it in a more friendly manner.

hybrid phoenix
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He's got a point, but it's a highly idealistic point and unfortunately does not reflect the way the world works, because people have a tendency to suck

placid bridge
hybrid phoenix
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It's the entire eternal debate about socialism, but basically, it's a nice theoretical state of the world, but if you introduce actual people into the mix your polished system will fall apart in thirty seconds

snow sorrel
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"I guess I get your point in a way. There is in a way an unfair classification of who deserves "rights" or "protection". This applies only to recognized identities but not other inherent factors of a person or unrecognized identities. "

Thank you a lot for understanding. Yes you are correct I meant this. I am bad at getting my point in a more friendly manner and sorry. But this because it is a topic that is very sensitive and is about survival for people like me.

hybrid phoenix
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I feel like we're going far beyond scope of this channel though, so we should probably just end the discussion

dry hill
snow sorrel
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Thanks

placid bridge
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In regards if you ever would like to talk about your "issues" I would be up for it

snow sorrel
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Thank you a lot!

placid bridge
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I do not have SAD so you will have to forgive me if I misunderstand things. I used to be very introvert but managed to turn it around. Usually in high school I was kind of the emo/goth kid group haha, but as I got older things got way better. I found that the way I viewed people might have affected how I interacted and viewed them. Instead of trying to see them as "stupid or evil" instead I try to perceive people as misinformed or something of the like or even ofcourse consider that I myself might be missinformed or need to improve

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Just my personal journey which is still ongoing. Anyways hit me up in DMs if you would ever need to talk and I'll try to get back to you

craggy nacelle
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if you hang around a lot of negative people it can easily make you feel like they don't respect you either

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I had those kinds of problems as well but as I grew up and found people who were nicer to be around I realized people actually liked the weird stuff I said lol

ashen lynx
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I think discussion is pretty relevant to this channel. Social issues are a growing problem and even faster growing one in IT especially with bias shift towards remote work. I do think however that SAD, in particular, should not get special treatment. It is a deviation with a well established causes and somewhat established approaches to improvement. Giving any priorities or slackway to ones suffering from it will hurt work environment, other collegues, and ultimatelly, the one who gets special attitude. Work comms just can't flow, when feedback is regarded as bullying. Person, acknowledging having social issues and expressing desire to correct it, should be given opportunity and full support in doing so, but rearranging everything to favor individual affected is BS of royal scale.

craggy nacelle
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I haven't really followed the entire convo, but I can tell from experience that many people do need to learn to give better feedback lol

placid bridge
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@craggy nacelle I think the issue kind of arose when he compared SAD to different identities

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It became kind of political in that way so people just tend to go on defence mode/offence

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After seeing long discussions or debates like this I usually like to think. That, truly one of the most amazing things about being human is being able to express differing opinions and emotions. Just the fact that we could convey, to another person, these biological signals in our brain is kind of a wonder.

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In a way it's kind of wholesome

rapid iron
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Out of curiousity, how do game studios hire developers for proprietary engines if they have no access to the engine unless they work for them?

I am currently working in unreal and just got a job in a studio which makes VR training simulations in Unreal Engine 4 and Unity. How would I potentially be able to join Ubisoft in such a case if they use Anvil for example?

flat gazelle
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You learn on the job.

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Being dependant on just one engine isn't a good move. Understand what the engine is and what it does. That will hold true in any of them.

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For example when I hired FX artists for Snowdrop I expected 3 - 6 month of ramp up time just because that engine was so different from most others. For Frostbite it was more like 2-4 months.

digital gate
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It'd be a great chance to practice learning a different engine, since you now can work in UE4 and Unity on the job.

ashen lynx
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Most of experience is tranferable and minor part is picking it up on the fly.

royal lintel
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Importantly, studios with in-house engines still care about experience with unreal/unity/etc because it shows you understand how to work with an engine. They know you'll need ramp up time regardless, but someone who has actually worked with industry standard tools is going to have a much easier time than someone who hasn't.

flat gazelle
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Tools is the easy part. I can teach anyone the engine used. It's all the surrounding skills that make the difference.

rapid iron
jagged leaf
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Sorry I didn't get back to you before this. Is there any resources that I can review to explore this topic more that you know of?

craggy nacelle
gentle stone
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Curious how much the transferability holds true for a tools programmer. Of course the general concepts are practiced doing ue4 tools programming but a large part of it is figuring out restrictions of the different engine APIs on the fly. In unreal I just look at source code all day to figure things out, no such thing in unity

craggy nacelle
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Unity has significantly better documentation for nearly everything which helps I think

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At least most things I ever looked up when working with Unity had descriptions and code examples

lone prism
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i am a newbie to unreal engine , having a game idea , with script written , we want help for game development , we are looking forward for a partner for our game , he should be between the age of 15-17.

pastel estuary
lone prism
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which point

pastel estuary
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all of it

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(just in case)

lone prism
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read

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thats the problem

pastel estuary
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i notice

glass parcel
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hi, I'm working now on multiplayer p2p party thing project. When I started making this project I had zero experience with multiplayer. It is good idea to start new project with my better experience at multiplayer ? (I'm working on this project for 4 months now)

jagged leaf
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@craggy nacelle unity seems to have better docs, but less powerful features if I understand correctly?

jagged leaf
craggy nacelle
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featurewise it probably depends on what you need/want... overall it's capable, but it doesn't have some features UE has like AI behavior trees for example. You could implement AI in C# but at least in my experience BT's are quite a lot simpler to work with out of the box

jagged leaf
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would it have better performance too, unreal I mean? Im only guessing that as I thikn C++ is closer to machine code then C#? I could be wrong on this, I'm not a C guy and I haven't touched C# in five years

craggy nacelle
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potentially yeah, although I think Unity's been working on some kind of faster C# thing, I haven't really looked at the perf side that much since none of my projects are so advanced they'd run into those limitations I think :D

jagged leaf
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ya it's one of the things that has caught me waving between the two engines. Most of the ideas that I have wouldn't need the power of unreal, but from my limited experience, C# and C++ are pretty different headspaces to get into, at least for me.

vocal meadow
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If you are doing two or more of the below stay away from both unity and C# (unless you plan on becoming the ultimate c# anti garbage collection code writer):

  • Making a Game
  • Providing a smooth experience
  • Large scale
  • Consistent performance without significant bias to memory availability

The reasons you don’t use c# for game development are:

  1. garbage collection haults literally every single thread while it moves memory around. You can’t throw more threads at a garbage collection problem.

  2. Unlike unreals form of garbage collection, in unity and c# things like strings and arrays are garbage collected. In unreal only objects are subject to gc. While you can certainly run into issues with object garbage collection it is nothing near the issues in terms of maintenance that you will experience with strings in c# for example. Every string concatenation results in a new gc alloc.

  3. You will experience wildly different performance based on memory pressure. Memory pressure is how much slack memory the program thinks it can eat up. If you have a lot of memory it can afford to offload collections longer. While you still get the performance hit when collection happens, there is more time between the collections.

  4. Small stepped GC is bogus. While you can achieve more consistent frame rates by doing frequent minimal collections it drops performance across the board. It is exchanging the large frame gaps for constant loss in performance. Pairs with number 1 this literally means your threads be haulting and resuming all the time.

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The reasons you don’t want to use unity:

  1. Unless you are shooting low on platforms where the performance is negligible or you don’t care about battery life (mobile) C# is just a bad thing for simulation. Unity’s own API doesn’t follow c# standards anyway.

  2. Prepare to write everything. Unity will expose something critical like cursor locking and hiding to you in the form of properties you set. While the documentation will tell you what they do, they won’t tell you about the behavior of setting one in order of the other. There is such little thought given to things and reverse understanding things is what you’ll be accustomed to once you understand the docs are a ploy to get you to invest yourself into the sandbox they keep you in.

  3. Component slop. While some people will tell you GameObjects and Actors are similar there is plainly no logic to GameObjects and if you are using something like find component in unreal it’s because you’ve made that decision over something that could be more elegant. With unity everything is looked up because you have no access to that region of design.

honest cipher
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you forget a pretty big one with unity. Its closed source so when you get a bug, you cant do shit. And if you want to make sure about something, you cant

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Unity devs are allways essentially praying to the machine and doing rituals couse who knows what kind of random arcane stuff from 2013 stackoverflow fixes your issue

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if you are in doubt about something in unreal you can step through it with a debugger or see what the code is doing

desert sun
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also unity has play-doh graphics

steel creek
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I have plenty of material launched under unity. Anyone who says dont use it, just dont like it. Be better and dont evaluate tools on feelings.

weak jay
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@desert sun the graphics are as good as you want to make them. just like UE, or any engine

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unity out of the box doesnt default with HDRP (HD render Pipeline) which is basically more advanced lighting, texture tools, material tools and you have to activate it manually to save system resources.

honest cipher
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@steel creek i worked for a couple projects where they did unity on console

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now whenever i get a "unity for console" project i charge extra

crude valve
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ok

steel creek
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@honest cipher To that point, we even do construct and gamemaker work -- charge your pain points, if clients want it, they will pay for it.

And the only "good" reason for not using an existing tool (ANY) is because it doesnt fit your use. I applaud Unity for making bank 15+ years along from all those other people also making bank selling product -- the proof is in the use, not the feels.

honest cipher
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yeah, but i generally find the closed-sourceness of unity really gets in the way on projects. You can still make projects in unity yes, but once you hit a bug or weird thing there is basically nothing you can do, so planning is a lot harder

undone fjord
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What is the difference between A Enviroment Artist and a Level Designer? What do they both do

tidal moth
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cosmetics versus gameplay

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roughly speaking

undone fjord
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so the enviroment artist makes the visuals and the level designer makes it playable and fun to play?

tidal moth
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yes

undone fjord
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alright thanks

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How do you get a job at a studio with a exclusive engine? If you can't use there engine how should you know what to do?

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All engines have different UI and features

tidal moth
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more or less every engine functions the same

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plus the pipelines feeding into the engines are usually the same

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using maya or max or blender is the same whether you're using a proprietary engine or ue4

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besides that people are aware if their engine isn't widely used, and so wlll expect a learning curve

compact cargo
flat gazelle
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This is the new hot question. I call dibs on asking it tomorrow.

pastel estuary
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permission granted

undone fjord
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wait so If a company uses unreal engine 4 and you have lots of experience with like World creator for UE4 will they let you use it? Can you use third party tools of your choosing

flat gazelle
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You can always ask for it.

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No guarantees they will let you

drifting stratus
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Does shipping a military simulation to the federal government count as a "shipped title?"

lilac walrus
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yes

lone linden
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@high latch It was designed, built, and then deployed, was it not? That's all the checkmarks for "shipped title" in my eyes....

brazen rune
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hi i just started with unreal engine and i really would appreciate help

digital gate
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For your UE4 career?

brazen rune
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yes

digital gate
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Learn UE via the available resources both in various channels on this server (#more-resources), then angle yourself to get an interview with a company or investor

brazen rune
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oh ok

gentle stone
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any freelancers from inside EU being contracted to an American company here? I know VAT does not apply for the country you are in, but it supposedly still applies to the US. Looking for info on the process because there is no good info on the internet about that. The accountant I asked doesn't have enough info on US tax law either

flat gazelle
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It depends on the tax treaty with the individual country

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For sweden it's reverse taxation for example

gentle stone
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I heard about reverse charging, but only found that it applies to countries inside the EU; not sure if it applies to germany and the US. I'll try looking it up.

flat gazelle
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Yeah, that's what I mean. Within EU there are general rules, but beyond that it's up to each country.

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There are some W8 forms you'll have to fill out and then you need to know about the individual treaty.

gentle stone
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oh boy. And here I was thinking I only need to register with German tax authorities

flat gazelle
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Oh no. Youll need to update the forms continuously

gentle stone
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great. Do you have any resources on this, perhaps an outline? First time I'm hearing about W8 forms, I don't even know where to look

flat gazelle
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Afraid not. All my info is Sweden specific and therefore in Swedish

gentle stone
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Oh, so the W8 form is Swedish though? I assumed it's an American thing

flat gazelle
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The guide for filling it is Swedish

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W8-ben is the name

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Check the irs

gentle stone
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gotcha, thanks. If anybody else has something to weigh in I'd still appreciate it

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do you remember if there are any forms outside of the W8 Ben or any other US-specific paperworks?

gentle stone
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seems like we don't have a reverse charge in place. So I'll need to pay the IRS directly it seems like.. 😅 fun

plucky hatch
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Is this a place where i can post about if someone is looking to hire a freelance programmer for their unreal project? Im a freelance BP programmer in unreal and looking for a job. in a huge bind

steady pewter
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@plucky hatch investigate the job channels and see for yourself?

plucky hatch
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oh i didnt see that one thanks

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i see theres a specific way to post about it through the bot? idk how to do that

steady pewter
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In such cases look for the pinned messages, channel descriptions and etc.

simple glade
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Folks who have dedicated QA for their games: what tooling do you use to manage test plans? TestRail? TestLodge? Something else, looking for advice.

pastel estuary
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some of these "permanent job" offers on this discord basically want a whole studio worth of skills in one person.
it makes me giggle.

honest cipher
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@pastel estuary very common in indie gamedev

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best part is that they pay shit

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and its not only on this discord or similar, if you look into "real" job websites for gamedev you will find the same

neon cloak
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no money no pay

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that's the cost of not working with the big players

lilac walrus
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pay peanuts, get monkeys ¯_(ツ)_/¯

neon cloak
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Wouldn't say that's completely true

flat gazelle
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Now I want some peanuts.

neon cloak
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You usually can get good folks that need the money or the experience

lilac walrus
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it's usually the case; anyone who really knows what they're doing tends to know what they can earn, hehe

neon cloak
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They'll leave you asap, but you can

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Sure, but it's not a clear cut decision

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I worked jobs in the VFX industry for a 1/3 of what I get now

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but it's those jobs that gave me access to where I am now

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Even in my current job, I work for a large gaming company, I took a pay cut from 90k to 80k to start there, contract was temporary full time, done in a year, and I made it perfectly clear I want to be
permanent full time, when that finally happened and I had proven myself, I told them I want 110k since we're making a new contract

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but that job wouldn't have been possible if I didn't have my previous job, and the job before that paid me 45k but allowed me to move here, which was the selling point for me..

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these are all big studios btw, I don't do indie.

flat gazelle
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Were you worth as much then as you are now?

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Or have you improved?

neon cloak
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Well

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that 45k job I got, it was a junior-mid position, I was HOD in my original country

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so I was worth more then

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that being said, the job in my original country, even as HOD, was paying less

lilac walrus
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The VFX industry has... problems though, let's be honest here

flat gazelle
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Oh yeah

neon cloak
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they're very similar IMO.

lilac walrus
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I regularly complain about games, but VFX seems to have all of the same problems turned up to 11

flat gazelle
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I only spent 6 months in VFX, but I came running back 😛

neon cloak
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lol

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Honestly my current job is the first time I'm in the gaming industry

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it's been so much better lol

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but my job in particular is very interesting, I think the bottom tier artists are eating just as much shit as I did in VFX

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anyway, you have to be tactical, if you're some blender kid that doesn't have any experience and can land one of those shitty gigs, go for it

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although I'd always shy away from indie devs as they're not a good place to learn things properly

nova tartan
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Entry level positions/internships at companies that do everything wrong make me sad
Friends joining companies that don't even have primary codebases on any sort of version control, no defined release processes, just no modern practices at all.
They get screwed out of learning experiences.
It's not just small companies either, some of these places make hundreds of millions in revenue and just have bad dev departments 😔

jagged leaf
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I've seen this in both startups and fortune 500.

round inlet
flat gazelle
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If your endgoal is working as an indie, you can go that route. If you plan on working at a larger studio, it's not the best choice.

round inlet
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yeah, I plan to work in game studio

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but indie game devs are cool too

vapid dirge
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Learning a lot... is good if you like learning. But getting paid should be the goal of a job. Or getting rewarded I guess, learning can be a reward. Just not as edible of one XD.

neon cloak
round inlet
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yeah

neon cloak
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Just because you textured a character doesn't mean it will look as good as it can

round inlet
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yes

neon cloak
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I can only speak to my own experience, but I think it's smarter to grind gears at a big studio and actively seek out people whom are good and ask them to teach you what you want to know

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This way you're getting paid, advancing your main discipline and learning other on your free time

round inlet
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yeah ofc

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I am agree with you

vapid dirge
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I think doing something professionally teaches one to be more efficient but less of a perfectionist if you're going to compare. Because time is money.

neon cloak
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Time is money in indie dev as well

round inlet
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yep

neon cloak
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But most certainly you get to use and learn the best cutting edge workflows in studios

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PBR didn't start with an indie dev

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Facs based facial also etc etc

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You learn from the best and take it with you

round inlet
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yeah

neon cloak
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Besides, the amount of quality and time you want to invest into something is your choice, an industry working artist knows all the tools and workflows needed to get what he wants, since it's your project you can take as much time as you want, it's not like you just push out shit to your own game because it was accepted in some b list movie you worked on lol

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Varies by the artist

vapid dirge
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I dunno, studios can get stuck in a pattern I'd assume too, tried and true has it's uses. Even if most advances do come from major sources, it'll be a while of them being proven before everyone moves I'd assume.

flat gazelle
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I'd be perfectly happy if we didn't make another PBRlike transition thank you very much. That one was painful as hell.

hybrid phoenix
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Still dealing with the problems stemming from that transition in my job

hasty hare
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Is there much demand for someone who mainly works with blueprints? I'm on my last semester of an AAS in Game Programming and I feel like there really isn't much out there (especially since the pandemic and bc there were no conventions for meet and greets)

tidal moth
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nope. blueprint is an auxiliary skill for several roles but not a role unto itself

hasty hare
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Guess it's just a bullet point on the resume. So even if you make a nice demo game for your portfolio out of blueprints they'd still want more C++ solid coding? Guess I find C++ just way more boring than blueprinting...

tidal moth
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depends on the role you're aiming for. if you're wanting to be a programmer then cpp will be your bread and butter

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blueprinting is generally more used in the realm of game/level design

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but once again it's not a primary skill in either of those. it's secondary to the design ability

hasty hare
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guess that makes sense

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How to get your foot in the door seems to be the main issue when you are new.

pastel estuary
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<_< i know plenty of people who solely got hired for their blueprint skills.

hybrid phoenix
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I just don't know people

flat gazelle
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Isn't there a video that's relevant now?

hybrid phoenix
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Weeeell that video's about preference

flat gazelle
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Fair

hybrid phoenix
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If you're asking job prospects for a programmer...

pastel estuary
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hears allar sneeze in the background

hasty hare
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throw it my way and I'll watch it.

tidal moth
hybrid phoenix
tidal moth
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my suggestion for a @vagrant bramble command is still valid

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hint hint @pastel estuary

hybrid phoenix
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Hehe

pastel estuary
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well, for making blueprints is one, another is to make tools for artists, make new features, whatever.

hasty hare
hybrid phoenix
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I do know tech-artists that really only do tools in BP

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But I don't think the tools are their sole responsibility

tidal moth
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that's kind of my point

pastel estuary
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also, i dont touch manny, go bother pfist with suggestions :p

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also, cel made quite a living from blueprints alone. she branched out to cpp at some point (along with ced) but blueprints alone is already quite a viable job that can keep you financially afloat for years to come.

hasty hare
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Guess my biggest problem right now is what to do once I'm out of school. Again there were no GDCs or meet and greet conventions of the sort.

wary idol
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I wouldn't trust a blueprint only person to do any advanced or performance critical system, if you never touched C++ (or don't have real programming experience) you don't have the sense of what's happening under the hood

pastel estuary
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network online.

hybrid phoenix
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As a freelancer I suspect you can get away with being a blueprint person

pastel estuary
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blueprint = coding

hybrid phoenix
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I don't think I've ever seen anyone get a full-time job for it, though

hasty hare
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What type of job should I look for straight out of a 2 year college? I've found that I've learned more off YouTube than going to college anyway.

wary idol
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it simply isn't that

pastel estuary
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thats just an opinion though.

hybrid phoenix
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The industry at large very much values portfolio over papers, so focus on your portfolio

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As for what sort of job you should look for... That depends what you want to do?

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You've still not said anything about what you do aside from that you've used blueprints

pastel estuary
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many people who go OMG CPP >> BP 4 LIFE write such horrible code that even a newb with some blueprint experience can make it perform better.

hybrid phoenix
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I'm pretty sure my C++ is god-awful, it's self-taught by necessity but really don't like it much

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Just use it for convenience in some cases

pastel estuary
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so just blatently going cpp > blueprint makes no sense

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and in that case, allar's statement is true

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use the profiler :p

hybrid phoenix
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Yep

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But CPU perf won't be what kills me on this project

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So hey-ho

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Anyway, the point here is career-chat

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So whether BP is proper programming aside, I've never seen anyone get hired for a full-time job with BPs as their sole responsibility

wary idol
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Well on our project there were some systems made by some BP only guys and we ended up rewriting all of it in C++, so yeah...

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giving BP guys to do complex systems always resulted in us having to rewrite it

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doubling the work pretty much

hasty hare
hybrid phoenix
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So basically, you've dabbled in a little bit of everything

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So what'd you enjoy? What do you want to do?

hasty hare
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I enjoy learning about all the aspects of Unreal Engine and game development but being a generalist is a horrible idea from what I've been told.

wary idol
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you want to focus on the area you want to get a job in

hasty hare
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I enjoy designing but heard that's one of the harder things to get a job in.

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level design, ai design also peek my interest.

tidal moth
# pastel estuary thats just an opinion though.

I think you'll find many programmers share the same sentiments. I do think blueprint does constitute some degree of coding, but equally like has been said you have no real idea about what's happening beneath the hood

hybrid phoenix
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Don't really agree necessarily

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UE4 BPs are about at the same depth as most of Unity's C# API

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I can use the C++ SetActorLocation, or I can use it in BP

hasty hare
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from my understanding it seems like it's just like programming in a different language.

hybrid phoenix
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Either way I won't know how it actually works

tidal moth
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I wouldn't trust a unity programmer with doing something in UE4 either, or any other engine requiring cpp

hybrid phoenix
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Unless I put conscious effort into figuring that out, which I can do regardless of BP/CPP preference

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Nah my point is, you can program in C++ just fine without having a clue what's happening under the hood

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Using C++ by no means inherently provides a better understanding than BP

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Only thing is that people that learn C++ are probably more likely to put in the work to figure out how things actually work past the basic API level

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But then, I also know people (like myself) that have done that while never having used C++

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I've spent my first four years in UE4 without ever touching C++, to no real detriment of my understanding of the engine

wary idol
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programming in C++ and understanding C++ and how it works are not the same thing
Anyone can program in C++ if they try but that doesn't mean they understand it, that's a big difference

hasty hare
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So what do you all do for a living and do you enjoy it?

wary idol
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C++ code made by someone who doesn't understand it is gonna be crap

wary idol
lilac walrus
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I think some of y'all would have minds blown if you saw some of the stuff we've been doing in BP 😂

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but this project is anything less than conventional

tidal moth
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I do design

hybrid phoenix
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I'm a technical artist. I enjoy it about as much as I'm able to enjoy anything

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Really I'm mostly interested in making my own stuff, and I'm properly working in the industry atm because it allows me to make a living while working on my projects, using the skills I've self-taught over the years of trying to do my own stuff

hasty hare
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I'm just trying to find something that doesn't such my soul out of my body anymore. Did boring office stuff for 7 years and it killed me bc there was no fun or challenge.

lilac walrus
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I mean game development is more or less 'boring office stuff' too

pastel estuary
#

^

wary idol
#

fun boring office stuff* 😛

tidal moth
#

yeah I think most of us are in the same boat. design for me is more about role in life rather than a job title

hasty hare
#

ya but at least you have an end goal sometimes.

hybrid phoenix
#

I personally am yet to find anything in life that doesn't suck my soul out of my body when doing it long-term

pastel estuary
#

had to spend 2 weeks doing the same 8-step repetative thing because nobody else wanted to do it, and no way to automate it.

#

much excite, much fun

hybrid phoenix
#

Which is why my stance on whether I enjoy it is this

I enjoy it about as much as I'm able to enjoy anything

tidal moth
#

automation is one of the first things I do whenever I can

#

unoptimized workflows are death

lilac walrus
#

I'm a TD specialising in systems and rapid prototyping; about 15% of the beginning of the project is the 'fun stuff' and the rest is the development grind, heh

pastel estuary
#

about time we get some build in AI which we can tell to do things like "resize all these things by 10%"

hasty hare
#

One thing I've learned since I started in this game development program is you don't play games the same anymore.

tidal moth
hybrid phoenix
#

I think I'd love it, just don't see how I'd get a job in it

wary idol
#

I love programming so I don't even think of it as a job

tidal moth
#

same but with design

hybrid phoenix
#

The goal with my own projects is to make enough money where I can delegate all the crappy stuff to other people and focus on design

#

(Don't think I'd hate management either)

tidal moth
#

I make no personal distinction between what I do for work and what I do for my own projects. that distinction is purely professional

flat gazelle
#

Not everything is the best thing ever, but I haven't hit boring deskjob yet. Haven't been doing it long enough yet.

hybrid phoenix
#

Frankly my experiences in life so far (which is rather brief) have lead me to believe I'm just not very good at working for people 😛

hasty hare
#

supervising is the worst 90% of the time. requires a certain type of person. management even more so.

tidal moth
hybrid phoenix
#

Just really don't see how I'd get my foot in the door

#

Also because I don't want to take a massive pay-cut

hasty hare
neon cloak
#

IMO to be a generalist you first should specialize in something

lilac walrus
#

I don't think generalists are really even a thing in this industry

neon cloak
#

they are

hasty hare
#

I don't want to get sucked into some gig that like we pay in royalties or something like that and get paid nothing.

hybrid phoenix
#

Most TAs are generalists

lilac walrus
#

TA is already a specialised path, so to call them generalists seems bizarre to me :p

tidal moth
flat gazelle
#

Issue for me is that I like to work on the really big stuff. That won't happen as a solo dev. That makes me enjoy working on a big team more than struggling through everything myself. Like if I have an idea that's really good and fits the game, we have some of the best people in the world there to implement it instead of me struggling through tutorial land to get a knockoff version of it done.

hybrid phoenix
#

@hasty hare If you know exactly what you want to do, we can outline a path for you. Right now we can't really help you much because you don't know what you want

lilac walrus
#

not to mention TA tends to have clear branches (e.g. animation / material / whatever emphasis)

neon cloak
#

your title may not say generalist, but you'll be working across multi disciplines, if you'll show you can do one properly

hasty hare
hybrid phoenix
#

I think TAs are often specialized generalists. Obviously we've got our niches, but I think most TAs have a decent understanding of a very large amount of stuff, more than most other roles

tidal moth
#

yeah I'd say so

neon cloak
#

to any new person in the industry, just go technical if you want a job asap

#

harder to find

hybrid phoenix
neon cloak
#

animators and modelers are too plentiful

hybrid phoenix
#

For as far as I do design I do it just as things come up that need to be addressed

lilac walrus
#

I'm trying to slowly cut 'paper' designers from the process, personally

flat gazelle
#

I generally want to cut designers...

hasty hare
#

Ya I found that out just through school....we have 13 artists and 7 programmers in our program and it's a smaller year of artists.

flat gazelle
#

don't abuse the prototype fx!

tidal moth
lilac walrus
#

not entirely sure when they materialised in games, but I don't really see a need for people who don't ever touch tools or engine in any meaningful way

neon cloak
#

I was the only one out of 25

#

everyone wanted to model

#

did fx instead even that my teachers wanted me to model dragons etc

#

only one person out of that class became a proper modeller

tidal moth
#

I've never done paper design in my life, and outside of japan I've never seen a role for it displayed either

lilac walrus
#

I've encountered it a lot, it is fairly ubiquitous

#

some paper designers are genuinely quite good at what they do, but I've also encountered people, even in AAA spaces, who I'd consider to be utterly feckless

pastel estuary
#

i kinda wanted to make a joke that paper has already been designed. but it kinda felt like a dumb joke.

hasty hare
#

This upcoming semester I'll be the lead programmer again for our 20 man project. It's very stressful working with people who don't care 😦

hybrid phoenix
#

Gamedev education tends to just be god-awful

hasty hare
#

I'm finding that out

neon cloak
#

how come

#

I did just general vfx animation thing

lilac walrus
#

it's awful because it's often not specialised enough, and it's not taught by people who know it well enough

neon cloak
#

ah

hybrid phoenix
#

I'd say most motivated people are better off just self-educating

lilac walrus
#

aye

neon cloak
#

how long is the course?

pastel estuary
#

gamedev education can be awful, but at the very least it learns you how to proper behave/how to work in groups/with other people/networking.

neon cloak
#

like years

hybrid phoenix
#

If you need a degree for some reason, go do something else for that, like comp-sci or something

lilac walrus
tidal moth
pastel estuary
#

@lilac walrus touche

hybrid phoenix
flat gazelle
#

Motivating people is an issue. There are not enough people interested in FX to warrnat any decent courses to be set up so we are stuck in endless understaffing.

hasty hare
#

our artist teachers are decent, and we lost all our game programmer teachers except the new one that just started that never worked in game design but went to school there. (our modeling teacher even had a commission for ready player one movie)

tidal moth
lilac walrus
hybrid phoenix
#

That made me actually laugh.

lilac walrus
#

thanks, really useful information

#

what do you want me to do with that, as a gameplay programmer?

neon cloak
#

@hasty hare yeah that doesn't sound good

tidal moth
lilac walrus
#

I'd add, this was a $90M game, not some random indie or something

neon cloak
#

Stick to the technical, it will get you in the industry while the rest fizzle out

tidal moth
lilac walrus
#

yup

hybrid phoenix
#

It's always either that or absolute newbies

tidal moth
#

sometimes dinosaurs can be gilded

#

which is bad for everyone

lilac walrus
#

I have literally no idea how they got their position originally, and even less how they retained it for so long

hybrid phoenix
#

But the newbie would just get fired

hasty hare
#

I put the extra effort into researching and providing research for my team and they also put little effort and I end up debugging their code all the time. Which has made me better at coding at least.

#

well blueprinting

hybrid phoenix
#

Not sure where this was, but in Europe they might be around still just because firing them has become too expensive short-term

tidal moth
flat gazelle
#

The older the company, the more people that have failed upwards.

hybrid phoenix
#

I know various cases of such things where companies fall into the sunk cost fallacy because of the cost of firing a long-term employee; "well if we have to pay the money anyway we may as well keep them on board for the extra hands"

pastel estuary
#

i remember back in the tcos/khaeon days (ued 2.5) the paper designers just.. came up with ideas not considering the tech at all.
"we want a full thawning world, snow falling off leaves, small rivers of thawned water down hills, yada yada"

neon cloak
#

and that's how AC3 was born

hasty hare
pastel estuary
#

"we want a spooky map, only use pink and purple colors!"

lilac walrus
#

you then work out whether tech to support it exists, or of it's viable to build it

hasty hare
#

Other issue is being replaced by people who will work for 1/2 your pay.

pastel estuary
#

in this case the game was already in production for 5 years, with extensive testing of limitations

lilac walrus
#

when you work on projects that have budgets into the eight digits, you have a budget to do that kind of thing

#

heck, at Microsoft we built entire engine features just to experiment with minor visual effects or mechanics 😄

flat gazelle
#

If I can be replaced by someone charging half my pay, it's time for me to do something else.

pastel estuary
#

the paper designers just didnt care or understood it

hybrid phoenix
lilac walrus
#

at one point Fable the Journey had an entire 2d fluid sim driving the particle effects for the magic (driven by gestures in screenspace)

neon cloak
#

I never really encountered that in the industry

lilac walrus
#

but it ultimately proved too expensive to run on the 360

neon cloak
#

usually companies know the value of a proper artist and offload the crap to contractors

hasty hare
hybrid phoenix
#

It's like those companies going "Seniors are too expensive, screw it, we'll just get two juniors for each senior we wanted"

lilac walrus
#

that usually happens because hiring seniors is difficult

hybrid phoenix
#

And then you end up in production hell because you don't have the competencies required on your team

lilac walrus
#

there's also a catch 22, as most experienced senior devs can look at a project and determine if it's going to be more problematic than it's worth or not 😂

hasty hare
#

I got fired for having a secretary staple some papers for me bc she said she was bored and wanted something to do. That was the best they could come up with 😂

pastel estuary
#

generally i have a good feel for that, but one project which i shall not name I still dont understand why it became a success.

hybrid phoenix
#

Was it Ark?

lilac walrus
#

lol

tidal moth
#

lmao

pastel estuary
#

lol, didnt work on ark. but good point XD

lilac walrus
#

having seen some of their code, I'm amazed that thing even fucking packages

#

the time of day system is enough to make a grown man weep in despair

pastel estuary
#

i wonder if they still have that 600-800 instruction metal door material

tidal moth
#

coming full circle back to why it is good to have programmers know their shit in UE4 😅

hasty hare
#

So how do you become a Technical Artist?

pastel estuary
#

by learning technical things and knowing how (and when) to apply them in various ways

tidal moth
#

choose the artist role but put all your points into engineering

pastel estuary
#

XD

flat gazelle
#

Step 1. Get addicted to coffee.
Step 2. No more steps.

hasty hare
#

lol

#

I hate coffee...but sodas will do.

hybrid phoenix
#

Eeeh

flat gazelle
#

Fired

hasty hare
#

lol

hybrid phoenix
#

So the way I became a technical artist is more or less this

#

I wanted to make my own games, started programming and all that stuff. I found some artists to get me assets, but soon realized none of those artists had any idea how to do stuff in-engine

#

So then I started implementing the art and such, basically doing everything that needed to happen in-engine

pastel estuary
#

looking for tech artist: the perfect person for the job must increase coffee consumption by 15.5%

hybrid phoenix
#

As time passed I've gotten more and more ambitious and skilled at implementing artsy things, which by extension also involves optimization and technical understandinge tc.

hasty hare
hybrid phoenix
#

And because I'm a programmer at heart I've also got a good technical basis to work from

#

So it just kinda... Happened?

#

Basically I started kinda specialized, then became a generalist by necessity and that generalism lead me down the rabbit hole of the specialized generalism that is tech-art 😛

#

I think the kind of tech-art I do can only be done by basically walking that path in some form

#

But there's many other kinds of tech art

hasty hare
#

We did a group project in Paper 2D which no one ever used before, I basically had to learn the whole system myself and then implement the sprites, flipbooks, tilesets and everything.

hybrid phoenix
#

I exclusively do in-engine stuff. I don't do tooling and pipelines, I don't do Houdini or Substance Designer, I don't do character stuff

flat gazelle
#

You would if you drank more coffee...

hybrid phoenix
#

Technical Art is an immensely broad field

#

One of the big struggles with finding a job in tech-art is that only 30% (edited from 10%, but it's somewhere in between) of job listings for tech-artists will actually match your niche in the field

tidal moth
#

I can imagine that

hasty hare
#

So on the job training, do many places offer that or do you basically have to have a massive understanding of something.

tidal moth
#

also it does feel like becoming a TA is a gateway drug to becoming a render programmer

hybrid phoenix
#

For tech art? Junior TA kinda... Doesn't really exist, I think

#

I think TAs will generally have had their junior time in another field, and kinda branched into TA by accident

#

And that history in other fields is what gives you the credentials to be a TA

pastel estuary
#

sounds like Jan's story XD

hybrid phoenix
#

And yeah many TAs (at least, my kind of TA) really walk the line with rendering engineering

#

Honestly this is the story of every single TA I know

flat gazelle
#

I mean, if you work in Unreal or unity, there's nothing stopping you from taking a junior TA role.

#

In proprietary engines, there's more transition.

#

There's enough info out there to go for TA on your own now.

#

You won't be TAD that way, but junior shouldn't really be an issue.

hybrid phoenix
#

I can't really imagine what a junior TA would... Do...

#

I guess that goes for most juniors

flat gazelle
#

lol

hasty hare
#

learn to take over the sr TAs job and get paid less XD

hybrid phoenix
#

That's one perk of TA; high demand, so pays well

flat gazelle
#

So, all your tasks are so complex only someone as experienced as you can handle them? There's nothing someone else could handle with some guidance?

#

Sounds like you either need to learn to delegate and coach, or have a skewed view of task importance and complexity.

hybrid phoenix
#

Nah, I misphrased. But I definitely also need to learn to delegate/coach, don't really have any meaningful experience with it

#

Was more just thinking from a production point of view that I imagine junior TAs are costly because most thing are pretty tangled up, so they'd require a lot of guidance

flat gazelle
#

I've seen junior TAs straight out of school take on some seriously heavy tasks. They just need more time and guidance.

hybrid phoenix
#

But that's just the thing with juniors

#

Bear in mind my perspective is coming from mostly having worked on things in-engine entirely by myself, so the really large-scale production stuff is rather a black box to me overall

hasty hare
#

So I'm guessing having a 2 yr AAS Degree in Game Programming won't do much on the resume

#

it'll be about a portfolio or something?

lilac walrus
#

degrees aren't worth much when it comes to actually applying for a job (I'm not sure what an AAS is), they tend to only really be helpful when it comes to things like work visas

#

you'll instead be judged on your application and supporting materials you provide - like a portfolio as the common example

hasty hare
#

Associates of Applied Science...just a 2 yr junior college degree....I figured it wouldn't mean much during my 3rd semester and doing more research...least I get a piece of paper...

hybrid phoenix
#

It's not all wasted, having papers can be very helpful for immigration

#

Which you likely will be doing at some point in a gamedev career

hasty hare
#

But I live in the US, think they'd send me abroad?

lilac walrus
#

probably not, but you may end up applying for something abroad some day

hybrid phoenix
#

^that

#

It's a very international industry

#

If you want to stay inside the US, you probably can, because there's plenty of studios there

lilac walrus
#

that and living/working in a tech industry like games in the US is.... not great

hasty hare
#

With Covid a lot of companies seemed to have figured out how to do remote.

hybrid phoenix
#

Doesn't mean they're thrilled about having everyone remote

#

Especially juniors

hasty hare
#

If I can find something I enjoy in the industry making 40k-60k a year I'd be happy.

hybrid phoenix
#

40-60k won't do jack if you can only find work in the bay area

hasty hare
#

well I live in Texas at the moment which has a good chunk of gaming companies.

#

Was hoping for one of those, I really do not want to go to CA in the least bit

tidal moth
#

beggars can't be choosers

#

you might not be able to pick where you want to go

#

game dev really is built on the concept of traveling to a location for work

#

whether that is within or outside the US is based on experience and chance

lilac walrus
#

hehe, 40-60k in any location where there are games companies isn't going to go very far at all

#

they are almost always in tech-hubs, and for good reason

#

$40k a year ain't worth shit when your rent is $3k per month 😄

hasty hare
#

Well Texas is fairly cheap and Austin and Dallas are being more and more popular with the gaming companies. I'd be the auxiliary earner anyway. Wife is a RN.

lilac walrus
#

I mean somewhere like Austin is still going to be almost $1500 a month, hehe

#

but it's not the bay area, at least

hasty hare
#

very true, though it now has a huge amount of people from the bay area

#

it's like a Calli refugee city

tidal moth
#

I mean there's still there very real possibility that if you get a job offer, it won't be in texas. what are you going to do then?

hasty hare
#

I won't mind moving. I'd probably just choose not to go to CA in it's current state. Since my wife is a RN she can basically work anywhere in the world just have to redo her license in that area.

tidal moth
#

it's just a question that's worth keeping in mind as it can get easy to get rooted into an area and having to choose between job and e.g. family for instance

hasty hare
#

oh ya, we talked about this possibility already 🙂

tidal moth
#

I couldn't see that in the thread

hasty hare
#

Oh I meant my wife and I oops

tidal moth
#

ah I see

hasty hare
#

I worked in the oil and gas industry for 10 years and had a move for it so know how things like that goes. I just had my soul sucked out by the mundane work after so long and needed to find something I enjoy doing.

#

Been a gamer my whole life and wanted to do this when I was younger so decided to give it a try.

tidal moth
#

sounds like you have to figure out which role you want to fit into and make your portfolio happen then

hasty hare
#

Thanks for all the help 🙂

lilac walrus
#

there are jobs channels below

pastel estuary
#

if only there was a job board on this discord

lilac walrus
#

though I have legitimately no idea what "games analysis" and "platform exploration" even entails

pastel estuary
#

@pseudo lily might want to post that in the job board section of our discord instead. thanks.

#

actually, please dont. hehe

pseudo lily
#

Thanks

pastel estuary
tidal moth
hybrid phoenix
#

Looks like mostly "yes part of my job is BP", with a handful actual yes

lilac walrus
#

I don't know if many people do 100% blueprint work

pastel estuary
#

<_< yea imagining having to touch other things

hybrid phoenix
#

Nah but if you get hired for a certain role and you just happen to end up basically spending all your time in blueprints, even if that's not what you were explicitly hired for, that's not really representative of what we're trying to figure out here

#

We're trying to figure out the prevalance of actual full-on blueprint programmers being hired as full-timers for that exact purpose

craggy nacelle
#

Interesting question... when I started using UE (hobby, not job) I did pretty much 100% BP's but I'm finding doing C++ is sometimes useful/required-due-to-reasons, so it makes me wonder if it would even make sense to "cordon" a developer to be 100% Blueprints if you want them to be 100% productive

lilac walrus
#

People hire for my boyish good looks and imitable charm, the blueprints are just a cheeky bonus

craggy nacelle
#

I guess if you had a C++ expert on your team you could argue that the BP dev can ask them for C++ features, but at least to me it seems that would then bottleneck on the C++ guy since they'd surely wouldn't always be immediately available to switch to the task required by the BP dev

lilac walrus
#

I mean you could use that example for literally everything cross-discipline, like LDs wanting features or tools, or implementing art assets or animation, hehe

pastel estuary
#

many cases where you wouldnt need to move stuff to cpp as well though

hasty hare
hybrid phoenix
#

Actually <@&213101288538374145> he posted this literally everywhere

remote saffron
#

game I worked on as a contractor had BP only coders

steady pewter
#

What's so interesting whether its BP or C++ or whatever? If it does the job, everyone is happy.

remote saffron
#

huge amount of stuff can be done with BP but at this point if your project is serious you will probably need at least one guy who can understand/write c++ code at some point because not everything is possible from BP / has a plugin already which makes it possible to do with BP

#

not to mention engine bugs 🤔 🔫

#

I assume the question was about finding out how common it is to be able to find a proper work with BP only, and I have no idea but it is a thing 🤷

hasty hare
craggy nacelle
#

tbh it seems it would be beneficial to learn C++ if you want to do game programming and not just BP's

#

partially also because BP's are programming and having a wider understanding of programming in general is helpful in making better software

hybrid phoenix
#

I wholeheartedly agree, but the discussion was about whether you could make a regular full-time career out of BPs exclusively, not whether you should 😬

craggy nacelle
#

Yeah I was mostly commenting on what FlamingCowHead - Kai said since it sounded like he'd rather just do BP's instead of something else as well

nova tartan
#

I'm having trouble visualizing a role that is somehow so narrow that all you do is blueprint work
it's so tied to other aspects of game dev so you'd need to have at least passable knowledge of all the things your blueprints are glueing together.

steel creek
#

I would never hire a person just to do blueprints

shut tree
#

not knowing any other language shows serious lack of interest

nova tartan
#

I don't think lack of interest is the right way to put it
More like lack of foundation?
Someone could be very interested and go hard on learning and implementing blueprints
But have gigantic holes in their knowledge and be missing a lot of things you'd expect of a well rounded programmer

tidal moth
#

lack of understanding of underlying principles

shut tree
#

tree philosopher is an actual profession here so anything is possible

#

I imagine thats heavily subsidized tho

#

get subsidized and you can become anything you want

kindred mason
#

And most people could easily live off half that

shut token
#

Not gonna lie - that's pretty cool (even though I'm more of a fan for text-based programming languages)

kindred mason
#

Honestly, I prefer BP for its rapid iteration and ease of use over C++, where, if you have multiple programmers... stuff can get even messier than spaghetti a lot faster.

#

But C++ is definitely something those wanting an edge over the competition in UE4 should probably start thinking about learning as time goes on. However, you can definitely make a seriously nice earning if you were BP-only. Anyone stating any different just wasn't good enough to do it.

shut tree
#

using BPs also means a lot of general editor stuff

#

just BPs dont really do anything 😛

kindred mason
#

There is one factor to consider though, as time goes on, more and more BP-onlys will appear, eventually getting as good as you or overcoming you. So, as long as you keep learning all the new things every release has, you should be good. But again, learning not just C++, but also Python (and whatever new scripting language comes in UE5) would be very beneficial in the long run as an Unreal Engine Engineer.

kindred mason
shut tree
#

well inputs are not defined in BP

#

they are an editor setting 😛

#

there is more in editor w/o code than just BPs

tidal moth
#

the term engineer is in some countries protected and implies high level engineering/architecture knowledge, something that BPs alone definitely do not exude

wary idol
#

@kindred mason As I said yesterday someone who is BP only and doesn't know any other programming language lacks any sense for proper system architecture and optimization, it is different if you already know other languages and decide to do BPs in ue4

shut tree
#

if ur focus is heavy math BPs are def more easy to get started than c++

#

but than ur a math guy working in BPs

digital gate
#

Anyone stating otherwise just wasn't good enough to do it

I mean, I'm good enough to work at a studio that I wanna work at and I'm gonna come out and say I must have been absolutely terrible at freelance because I never got close to $8k a month

shut tree
#

hes just good at marketing himself 😛

craggy nacelle
#

I think those figures vary a lot by region... I'd say you're pretty unlikely to push 8k a month here unless you're in a fairly senior role

shut tree
#

diffrent skillset 🙂

digital gate
#

Fair, and kind of my point

shut tree
#

2 month, job done well guarantee

#

freelancing has some extra risks

digital gate
#

but coming in here "If you're saying BP only work isn't a viable career path for everyone, you were just bad at it" is a flawed argument

kindred mason
digital gate
#

its throwing away all the other stuff you have to do on top of the BP work

kindred mason
#

You are assuming that someone who only knows BP in UE4 has never bothered learning those things before/during.

digital gate
#

You're now strawmanning my argument rather than having a conversation with someone who actually did BP freelancing

kindred mason
#

Some people start working in UE4 with BP during schooling and self-learn those things, without the need of any other concrete language skills.

digital gate
#

Erm, hello, hi

#

I'm some people

kindred mason
#

🙂

kindred mason
#

All I am saying is, anyone trying to say you can't make a good (or great) living off just BP, just never actually bothered to put in the time and energy to get there.

#

You won't be making $8K/mo in your first month, or even first year or two.

tidal moth
#

would love to see the contract for 8k a month for a 100% BP exclusive position

digital gate
#

My experience is contrary to yours

craggy nacelle
#

I once had a gig doing 10k a month but I've never even been close to 8k ever since :P

kindred mason
craggy nacelle
#

but at least in my area 8k is a lot of money

digital gate
#

I landed some decent clients, but my career opportunities only widened once I embraced C++

#

You can totally live off BP, but not expanding your horizons is pointless

kindred mason
#

One thing to note. You'll be making that money not in game dev per say, it's more on the enterprise level stuff.

wary idol
#

Well my experience working with BP only devs has been a pure nightmare, having to rewrite their crap in cpp multiple times

digital gate
#

Heh, even as a BP only working with other BP onlys @wary idol

#

utterly inflexible implementations are always a good time

kindred mason
digital gate
#

or miles of stuff when 2 nodes can do the same thing

shut tree
#

select all delete, start over ->bestoption

kindred mason
#

Most people outside the USA and parts of Europe (and Japan) can live off very little in my experience while looking around for contractors.

shut tree
#

parts of everywhere are expensive

#

even poor countries

craggy nacelle
#

could probably work with a bit less too

wary idol
digital gate
#

But you can make BP only stuff that isn't that @wary idol

#

It's just that the vast majority don't

shut tree
#

those really cheap countries is often more expensive to have a place with running water

kindred mason
digital gate
#

Undoubtedly Victor does/did because I mean 8k

wary idol
kindred mason
#

In the first year, I would expect something like $2500/mo

digital gate
#

In the first year I would expect nothing of the sort

kindred mason
digital gate
#

My best freelance contract I came out like $23k

kindred mason
#

I'm pretty sure my first monthly contract was about that much in my first year. I thought it was good.

shut tree
#

thats 1st year after a gamedev degree

digital gate
#

My best.

kindred mason
#

Well, I do have a gamedev degree 😉

digital gate
#

That was my year 3

shut tree
#

thats what i say

#

1st year from scratch and ur an elephant in a porselain shop

digital gate
#

And now I'm doing some actual numbers without a degree

shut tree
#

the one profession i know u can start after a month of learning is databaser management 😛

digital gate
#

Legit I went from begging for a client and getting like $200/mo to 65k

kindred mason
# shut tree 1st year from scratch and ur an elephant in a porselain shop

I don't know. I think, for the most part people ignore the degree. but it does give a leg up in contract negotiations (which I always did if I felt it needed it). I think self-taught is better for the most part if someone can fully concentrate on UE4 8+ hrs a day for a whole year. While obviously learning standard programming practices.

digital gate
#

I don't expect to freelance again

#

And I don't make 65k anymore 😎

#

@kindred mason You probably didn't see it matter because it was rubber stamped for you.

kindred mason
digital gate
#

the degree

kindred mason
#

Oh. I don't know. Maybe.

#

I just think the debate whether you can or can't make money off just knowing BP is just dumb, based on my personal experience.

digital gate
#

I think the real discussion is on whether or not it makes sense to remain BP only

#

Yeah, you can pay bills with BP only money, but if you pick stumbling projects your portfolio is a dead weight and it becomes really difficult to attract opportunities

#

And the real work IME is only present when you can demonstrate proficiency as a gameplay programmer in both

flat gazelle
#

Wait, people care what tool is used? Coders are weird.

digital gate
#

@flat gazelle if I could have pulled in steady income on BP, I would have

kindred mason
flat gazelle
#

And it seems some do, so what's the point of this discussion? Use what's needed to build the game. If you want to optimize your career there are a million things to factor in. Tools should probably be somewhere on the list but jeez :p

#

Yeah

kindred mason
#

One thing I wish I could figure out, is working freelance, while also working on my game... So then I could afford to pay more people 🙂 I know there are some people that do this, and that's nice but I barely have time just for the game (which I put in anywhere from 40-60 hours on average a week)

shut tree
#

tools are everything, tools are life 😛

steady pewter
#

40h / week is standard working week lol

shut tree
#

the jobs u can do depends on the tools you can use

steady pewter
#

60h means you have not much of other life most likely.

flat gazelle
#

Yes! Skills also decide what jobs you can do. So does your experience. And your location... etc.

#

Fixating on tools can help you, but it can just as well pull you down. It's all a means to an end. Trying to tell others that one way is the correct one seems, unrpductive.

#

Also, everyone should use Houdini or just give up.

shut tree
#

i dunno blender mantaflow is goin places 😛

kindred mason
digital gate
shut tree
#

if ur solo and dont know c++ and wunna make a game, you have to stick to unreal prefabs

kindred mason
#

Or you could just learn C++ if you really want to learn it as you go though.

shut tree
#

nah if ur solo time is better spend on art and stuff

kindred mason
#

Oh, I don't disagree, but if you can afford to spend extra time learning something new, it's almost always worth it.

shut tree
#

yea but you cant afford that 😛

hasty hare
#

Oh, just FYI, I am learning C++ alongside Blueprints. I just like the visualization blueprinting gives when programming. Also just because you know C++ doesn't mean you know how to execute it inside of Unreal as it has a lot of it's own libraries and whatnot. 🙂

shut tree
#

any kind of specialization is goin to be more easy to market

#

if u want to make some game or a movie, you want to learn as few extra skills as possible and learn what u need

hasty hare
#

The original goal of this whole thing was figuring out what I was going to do after school for a career btw 😉 I stated I really love BP and wondered if people can make a living off just doing BPs.

flat gazelle
#

Can, Yes. Should, probably not. There, summarized it.

hasty hare
#

My school lacks career planning obviously.

#

I do extra research and planning as well as skill improving on my own outside of school.

shut tree
#

if u make a really cool BP and put it on the marketplace i might buy it 😛

hasty hare
#

Just turned to this chat as you all have the experience to inform me on what skills are useful to progress and are sought after

honest cipher
#

you hire a gameplay programmer, not a BP guy

#

and a gameplay programmer needs to be proficient in Cpp to be useful

#

even if you end up mostly working on BP, still need to know cpp to expose functions or pass some loops to cpp or similar types of stuff

hybrid phoenix
shut tree
#

it takes at least 2 skills to make an interesting BP

#

the making of the BP is not the thing that sells

#

i can watch a video on the internet and make this BP or I can do heavy vector math and make this BP

#

BP is a way to show off ur other skill

kindred mason
kindred mason
#

But don't think there isn't a huge demand for just plain BP devs.

kindred mason
# hasty hare Just turned to this chat as you all have the experience to inform me on what ski...

My recommendation, start off BP only, get comfortable with engine for a bit, pick up some gigs, short/long-term contracts, then slowly start learning and exploring C++ in UE4, plenty of tutorials out there. Pick up some gigs for C++ after a bit.

You can completely skip over C++ though. Not a requirement for most UE4 jobs out there in my experience.

But if you start seeing that change, change with it.

The experience of BP-only from most on here is just too varied. You need to just be able to figure out what you can afford to live off of and if BP-only jobs can support you in your goals, there no need to worry about anything else.

hybrid phoenix
#

You're saying client. The point here was not freelance, but getting a permanent, full-time position somewhere

#

For freelance/contracting, I don't need any convincing, I'm very aware you can easily subsist on just BP jobs

kindred mason
#

A client/boss, same thing in my eyes.

#

No job is 100% guaranteed permanent anyway

tidal moth
#

stability isn't included in freelance

hasty hare
#

Did you guys go freelance or perma first?

pastel estuary
kindred mason
#

Yeah, people who think gamedev is stable have a thing or two coming

tidal moth
pastel estuary
#

lol

#

points at blizzard

hasty hare
#

poor Blizzard devs...

kindred mason
#

Even big companies need to fire off people from time to time

pastel estuary
#

not to mention the high amount of people getting fired and new meat getting back in

kindred mason
tidal moth
#

you guys are acting like this doesn't happen across the entire corporate world

pastel estuary
#

you are kinda acting like it doesnt happen that often is more the point we are making

kindred mason
#

Lol

hasty hare
tidal moth
#

exactly my point

kindred mason
#

Yeah. GameDev isn't like any other industry though

digital gate
flat gazelle
#

Haven't been unemployed a day since I joined the games industry. Seems stable enough for me. I too can drop anecdotes!

kindred mason
tidal moth
#

boom. games industry proven stable

flat gazelle
#

Nope, I moved around

tidal moth
#

statisticians hate him

kindred mason
#

Exactly

flat gazelle
#

Never been let go

kindred mason
#

But you could of

flat gazelle
#

Yes, and an asteroid could have smashed me

#

I could also have stayed

kindred mason
#

Yup. Could happen

pastel estuary
#

sweden grenade bombings* all over again :p

flat gazelle
#

One company I worked at has closed/reformed. They did so some years after I left.

kindred mason
#

That's one of the problems with asking general questions though. Too varying of experiences.

hasty hare
#

I take everyone's input into account 🙂 I know one thing will work for one person but not another.

tidal moth
#

I think it goes without saying that nobody has any guarantees for life

pastel estuary
#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

tidal moth
#

the games industry is still fairly, young, true, and it's probably still going to have some unique employment issues. but we are reaching a point where more stability is reachable in the industry as a whole

#

there, a measured, politically unassailable response

hasty hare
#

This is one of the reasons I think 3d modeling and the sort has more people, it's easier to understand what type of skills are required when getting that job.

#

I mean you can learn C++ or other languages but what exactly you need to know how to do is not as clear and straight forward.

plucky hatch
#

Is it true large games companies get a lot of corporate welfare? Or is that just a UK thing

digital gate
#

@hasty hare that might be better explored in #cpp

flat gazelle
#

Yes, larger companies usually have more comprehensive benefits packages.

digital gate
#

there's lots of things that simply do not matter for UE4 game code but which are important for modern cpp

fickle hatch
hybrid phoenix
#

I went from personal/hobby with professional aspirations (as in, I wanted to release my own games and live off that income) to getting a permanent full-time position

wary idol
compact cargo
#

Late to the party, but a lot of things are more stable than games...but there are also fields that are less stable too.

dark linden
#

Hi guys, how are y'all doing? I have a very interesting question. 😄 Is working on an adult game project going to negatively affect my CV for employers or recruiters? It is my first fulltime job as a gamedev, but that is not something I want to do forever...

pastel estuary
#

that might depend on the employer/recruiter

#

it shouldnt matter, but it might because people be people

lilac walrus
#

I wouldn't expect it to matter too much for a serious company

pastel estuary
#

well define serious, because some companies consider serious "stay far away from adult/xxx stuff"

lilac walrus
#

the company might do that, but you're not going to be denying a 3d artist a job because they sculpted a nipple

#

if you are, your HR department has problems

pastel estuary
#

XD
"this is a no nipple workspace!"

#

but yaa, i bet 99.9% cases it should be fine.

dark linden
#

it depends what they working on, I guess

cloud dagger
#

hey guys, I'm looking for a game art master course in Europe. any recommendations?

lilac walrus
#

I don't know of any in the EU that are worth doing :/

#

there are a couple in the UK

#

Hertfordshire offer one, IIRC - but that's not EU, so

green oyster
#

my last studio was involved in education with local colleges and created a couple of courses and a master programme for students, perhaps look into something similar? the point was that they wanted to recruit new game artists for AAA projects so only working, experienced artists provided created the lessons

cloud dagger
green oyster
#

@cloud dagger well I don't think it can help you though, because all of it is in romanian 😆 https://amcstudio.ro/amc_blog/we-shape-digital-art-education-in-romania/ but I imagine companies in other countries thought of something similar to do

We Shape Worlds
Georgiana Toea
We Shape Digital Art Education in Romania - We Shape Worlds

During the past half a decade, AMC has become a pioneer in creating educational schemes aiming to shape the next generation of 3D digital artists. On top of all efforts is our willingness to shape the next world shapers in order to ensure the sustainability of a profession that evolves continuously through the blend of […]

cloud dagger
#

that's an awesome concept tho :]

#

I'll look for something similar

grand kelp
#

idk mine just kinda works on games for fun

#

none of us are using money

#

all just freetime

#

legal stuff is getting in the way, but so long as a game is out eventually, and we learn per-process, i dont mind

cinder pewter
#

guys if I am already a gameplay programmer for a company, is it worth it to get a software engineering degree ?

#

I mean I can spend that 4 years just learning more stuff right ?

pure flame
#

My opinion is, no. The degree itself is very useless when compared to real world experience and targeted/specific learning of new toolsets and features to improve your knowledge. On the job training at a good company will far outweigh any piece of paper a school can provide you.

fickle hatch
#

A degree helped me just once - with the immigration process, and even then it wasn't decisive, though it made things notably smoother

#

Getting a degree is more useful than having a degree - in sense that getting a degree usually involves learning work discipline and basic personal time management skills

#

You don't need to obtain a degree to study and practice those kinda skills. And when it comes to formalities, solid experience is more important than the formal elements like having a degree

#

It might be worth to get a degree just to learn how to learn & work on your own time, but also it might not be an investment that's reasonable to make

cinder pewter
#

thanks guys !

frigid osprey
#

I myself got a degree and don’t work in the game industry...yet...but I have many coworkers who do not have degrees but they know their stuff. So application of what you learn is key. That is more proof than a degree in my opinion. I have met people with masters degrees that did not know how to apply what they learned. So practice and application 😎

jagged leaf
#

If you dont' plan on emigrating from where you live, it's useless. If you have no real world experieince or want the option to emigrate, then yes

fringe eagle
#

I want to shift my main focus from gameplay programming to online/network programming. I know I have to have a thorough understanding of the UE4 networking framework and online subsystem, but is there anything else I should start learning and dive into? I heard of an application called PlayFab that enables developers to connect their games to their online services, but it's separate from Unreal's online subsystem, so that's something I can look into learning. I think I should look into where various companies get their online services from and learn a few of the popular ones. What do you think my approach should be? I'm taking my Networks course during the next Fall semester but I want to start learning stuff beforehand.

Thanks

frigid osprey
#

Want to get a convo started on how the industry is for developers transitioning over from other industry fields. When I started my job at my current place of employment (six years ago) there was a system of assigning a mentor to me so I could get my bearings and understand the basic operations and workflow of the app we were working on. Now, that system is still in place and I have had my share of mentoring new hires. I have heard many things about the Game industry like, "you get thrown in the deep end", "sink or swim", "you have to do it all yourself".

Is this basically it, or is there mentoring that takes place?
Do you have to seek out mentoring? (is that even a possibility before you get a job at a game dev company?)

flat gazelle
#

It depends on the studio. Large studios that have been around for a while will likely have this in place. As a lead, mentoring the new hires was a big part of my job.

ionic oak
#

what level of UE4 knowledge I should have to get a job? and do I have any chance if I know only BPs (I mean no cpp)?

lilac walrus
#

"what level of UE4 knowledge I should have to get a job?"

This is kind of an unanswerable question because it's really hard to rationalise what a "level of knowledge" is to begin with

"do I have any chance if I know only BPs (I mean no cpp)?"

Limited. Some studios might make use of Scripters, Technical Level Designers, Technical Designers or whatever, and they'll likely work in blueprint a lot. Most of those will also have a lot of supplementary knowledge of other parts of the engine though. Most TDs as an example are also quite capable of writing code in other languages and working with a number of the common tools in the engine (and applying that knowledge to other engines).

plucky hatch
#

I am looking for 1-2 indie dev's who's confident with UE4 for a new project, where would I go about that?

lilac walrus
#

...the job boards?

pastel estuary
#

^

plucky hatch
#

oh didn't know there was one, so many channels

digital gate
pastel estuary
#

@vocal canopy
"Talk about working in the industry, getting a job, and anything else career-related."

vocal canopy
pastel estuary
vocal canopy
#

thanks

frigid osprey
#

How do you reach out to companies other than trying to track down HR and recruiters through linked in? Most sites do not have some way of contacting them?
For me this is difficult because I live in St. Louis (middle of the desert of the game industry)

lilac walrus
#

generally speaking, you don't

#

companies use HR etc as their front for communications

#

many companies will have a generic contact through their web page, but responses will take a long time

earnest briar
#

hey, if I have a UE4 Blueprint scripting job available for hire.. can I post it on here? anyone know if this is against the rules?

lilac walrus
#

jobs boards

earnest briar
#

seriously so new to this.. is there a job board section on Discord where it would easily target Blueprint programmers? I appreciate the help

pastel estuary
earnest briar
#

@pastel estuary dang so much easier than I thought haha. thank you so much for your help. I was able to post my Blueprint Scripter job on the contract-jobs job board. Thanks again.

drifting stratus
#

What is the actual business value of experience

#

As a company, I would assume that experience correlates to some sort of monetary gain for the company.

#

But no matter which way I put it, it's always a loss

flat gazelle
#

One experienced person can do what several inexperienced people cannot.

#

Paying several people for the same result, is a monetary loss.

drifting stratus
#

I think the opposite is also true. I think someone with more experience has a jaded outlook which can make them focus on a past issue and correlate it to a current issue only to realize later that they were wrong and that it was much easier than they thought.

#

I think experience actually jades your outlook.

#

Negatively

#

Honestly, experience is a bad thing.

flat gazelle
#

Couldn't disagree more.

drifting stratus
#

Experience correlates with one thing.

#

What do you think it is?

#

It's a three letter word

flat gazelle
#

Having been in situations before and therefore has an idea of the potential outcomes.

drifting stratus
#

It's a three letter word lol

#

It's not a sentence

#

Experience correlates with one thing

#

What is it?

#

Experience does not correlate with skill, or value, or ability.

flat gazelle
#

Right, I thought you had something valuable to contribute. I don't engage with trolls.

drifting stratus
#

I'm not trolling man

#

lol

#

It's true

#

Experience does not correlate with skill, value, or ability.

#

If you actually took me serious, you could learn something valuable.

#

But you don't want to learn.

flat gazelle
#

I take it you are currently inexperienced, unemployed/"solo dev" and annoyed? I see what you are getting at, but it's just a really bad take and I don't see the point of discussing it in a career chat.

drifting stratus
#

No. lol

#

I'll tell you what experience actually correlates with if you want to know?

#

I can educate you

#

@flat gazelle I think you argue in bad faith tbh.

flat gazelle
#

Please don't tag me.

drifting stratus
#

@flat gazelle What does that mean?

flat gazelle
#

<@&213101288538374145>

carmine siren
#

@drifting stratus Please don't overuse pinging other members. Especially when they request you don't.

drifting stratus
#

I don't know what that means

carmine siren
#

When you include their name in your message with @

drifting stratus
#

Oh the mention

carmine siren
#

It gives them a notification through discord

#

Yes

drifting stratus
#

You can turn that off you know

#

I made a tutorial, if you want to see it

#

It has over 100k views

#

On youtube

carmine siren
#

Regardless, the rule still stands

hybrid phoenix
#

Lots of us keep our mention notifications on so that people can properly notify us if they've actually got something important for us to look

#

I.e. I have my notifications on so I'll know if someone replies to a question I ask a while after I posted it

#

That aside, if you want to have a constructive conversation here, don't spend ten minutes doing "Guess the arbitrary word I picked", that'll just get on everyone's nerves

#

Just say what you're actually trying to say instead of playing games with people

#

As for this...

Experience does not correlate with skill, or value, or ability.
Wheeeew that's a hot take

#

Experience definitely correlates with those things. On average, a person that's been doing whatever it is they do for a decade will be vastly more skilled in their field than someone who's only been doing it for a year. There is also very definite exceptions to that trend - there's absolutely people with incredible track records that are highly incompetent despite that, but those are the exception, not the rule.

#

While I can see the point that experienced developers are more 'jaded', I rarely feel that really has a large impact on the work they put out. Just means they're more prone to seeing the potential downsides that come with something, which is often entirely justified and incredibly valuable.

steady pewter
#

tldr: meh...

digital gate
#

Is the fantastic mystery age? Is that the three letter word we're trying to reference here? That's what correlates with experience?

Cause I've worked with people older than me who have absolutely no experience in games, realistic scoping, team management, or advertising - who tried to be studio head. By literal definition only, you gain more experience as you age. Iunno, seems like a really weak point to go "I'm very clever, guess my word" with.

lilac walrus
#

maybe it was 'egg'

jagged leaf
#

or cat

grand hawk
#

First time I took a peak here... Instant regret 😆

wary idol
#

could be "dog" too 🤷‍♀️

digital gate
odd dirge
#

Spectrum tends to work both ways, either you have some old prick who thinks the wrinkles around their eye correlates to skill and leadership, or some zoomer who worked hard, created a solid portfolio, then completely abandoned all sense of responsibility and wonder why their ego isn’t enough to lead a team... mid ground is some millennial who freezes up anytime a massive problem shows up, and is usually contended with depending on how full the Zoloft bottle is that week.

tough reef
#

what kind of career is story writing ?

#

I mean what s that in general is it like writing novels since few games came from novels

grand locust
static shale
#

hey any artists/hiring staff that could give me some feedback on my work. i have been trying to land a job as a environment artist for several months now with no results. i'll send my portfolio in dm and would really appreciate it if someone yould take a quick look at it and give me some pointers

pastel estuary
#

hey hey @static shale could I suggest you to google "killer portfolio or portfolio killer" which should give you quite a few videos with respected people from our industry talking about do's and dont's when it comes to portfolios.

static shale
#

aye i will do!

spiral badge
#

how can i get into the gaming industry, im looking to do landscapes and environment, as i really enjoy it

#

im only a beginner at the whole thing id say, but i could really see myself making a living out of it

plucky hawk
#

does anyone know of good tutorials on using mixer and bridge or if there is an in depth course somewhere to learn every bit about it?

#

@spiral badge friends of mine who are now level designers for watch dogs created mods for quake or created a independant project to have added to their resume. that seemed to push them ahead of alot of people and actually land the jobs

hybrid phoenix
#

Mod development is very good portfolio work for various design roles, because it's a really good way to show off applied design skills

#

But that's for LD, not environment art. For environment art you should just make some really pretty well-optimized stuff

dark linden
#

hi guys, just wondering, what do one need to go from gamedev to archvis or automotive vis. I can code in BP and learing c++, much more a coder person than an artist, but i am very interested in the engineering and CAD side of things too

lilac walrus
#

you need to make games, basically

#

make stuff in your spare time, do your reading, learn how the thing is made

dark linden
#

I do make games

#

full time

lilac walrus
#

OH, you meant the other way around, my bad 😄

dark linden
#

still novice tho but learining

lilac walrus
#

I'm so used to the question being in the opposite direction

#

I mean if you can happily make games, basic visualisation stuff tends to be easier from the "gameplay" side

dark linden
#

I might be against the grain then 😄

#

but i don't use maya or blender, only UE, Unity and Rider/vs

#

can use the material editor tho

hybrid phoenix
#

I think viz tends to be a lot more... 'Relaxed' than gamedev. There's a lot more possibilities, fewer limitations. If you can do gamedev, I really do think you can also do viz

dark linden
#

🙂

#

thanks

stray vortex
#

general question, are job opportunities good for medium/good ppl?

#

how much can you make a year as ue dev?

flat gazelle
#

Impossible to answer.

#

There is no such thing as a ue dev. You need to specify a role.

#

You also need to specify what city you mean.

#

Or are you after the potential Maximum salary anyone working in Unreal can have?

stray vortex
#

there is no ue developer?

#

i would pretty much say thats a role

flat gazelle
#

ok

stray vortex
#

like junior senior dev

#

are you from germany?

flat gazelle
#

nope

stray vortex
#

graphic artist?

flat gazelle
#

VFX artist

stray vortex
#

you use mainly particle systems?

flat gazelle
#

I use particle systems. Not sure I'd say mainly

stray vortex
#

do you have some youtube so that i can imagine?

#

but do you code?

flat gazelle
#

Define code

stray vortex
#

c++

flat gazelle
#

Then no

stray vortex
#

you use bp

#

i isee

flat gazelle
#

I only use BP, HLSL, Python and VEX

stray vortex
#

shader nice

#

what kind of stuff do you do

flat gazelle
#

VFX

stray vortex
#

is there something online

#

im interested

#

well shader coding is super complex

#

it can be

flat gazelle
#

An old project I worked on

stray vortex
#

is that ironclad

#

battlefield

#

ok you this the particle fx?

#

yeah well thats very cool

#

aaa+

#

love it

#

is unreal also used for vfx for movies?

flat gazelle
#

no

stray vortex
#

what do ppl use there?

#

i like your website btw

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just had a look

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well i like ue

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i can imagine there are a lot of open positions

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regarding ue

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im just working on a small prototype game

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ai based

cinder robin
stray vortex
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dev?

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junior senior lead

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what can you make a year for those?

proper rain
stray vortex
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im off to sleep

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yeah apply

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i pay you a million maybe

hoary peak
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[Help] Hey everyone, I'm someone who's been working in Unreal for about 2 and a half years. I've worked on Vr projects and helped debug a Vr Ik system. I know how to do c++ but am more comfortable in blueprints.. for the first year of my gamedev stuff i was using C# in unity... anyway what i wanna ask is.. where do i get started? i have a bit of stuff on my resume i guess with the Vr stuff i did but other than that.. i've just been building my skills trying to make a multiplayer RPG game for the past 2 years

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i dont really even know what im asking i guess.. just looking for some basic guidance

digital gate
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I uh. Huh. Scope out something you can turn around quicker than a full game release, but which is pretty cool and allows you to flex C++/BP/etc cohesion (or some other marker of ability) . Then you can center your port around that demo and then your work history?

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Then maybe while trying to get gigs/contracts/etc, keep working on your game, idk

blissful sinew
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Hi

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I am a person

steel creek
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congrats

digital gate
oak rune
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Anyone have some good or bad experiences hiring college students? Theres a Full Sail nearby, and my indie project needs 3d modeling.

steel creek
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Just realize theyre students and make sure to also pay them well because I went to Dave school which is right up the road from Full Sail

oak rune
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I'd like to pay them of course. What do you think is fair wage for an in-training modeler?

steel creek
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depends on the complexity and what they actually know. That is the problem using students, regardless of how GOOD they are -- this is also why the US has a strong intern program.

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over the last 10 years I've hired about 60% of the interns we got, but, as students we didnt use any of their work because it was nascent work. That is across the entire pipe.

nova tartan
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I've hired college students for co ops a lot, they are inexperienced but tend to work pretty hard.
If they stay on part time after the co op period ends, they tend to be much less productive because post secondary education is extremely demanding on someone's time
What would happen is they'd start part time, do normal work for the first 2-3 weeks, then the first assignments start to pile up so they want to reduce their hours, then mid terms and second assignments, then projects, then finals
So they end up being really busy and unable to contribute nearly as much as when they had no school obligations

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(this is for software dev)

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I'd imagine you'd run into scope and art direction problems
How are you going to make all your assets look like they belong in the same world and have similar quality

oak rune
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That's my big issue right now - I'm going for a more cartoonish look and need some minorly modular characters to match.

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I can find props and landscaping just fine and that stuff looks good together. But the only models that match my characters are too high detailed and not the right style.

somber brook
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Guys, anyone that's worked on, or is working in console game studios. I'm in a spot and am having doubts about my situation and how I should act now vs later. I'm a Game Designer and want to move from Mobile to Console dev. (for a tldr you can skip to the last 2 paras 🙂 )

I'm out of a job atm and initially it was perfect for me as it allowed me time to work on my scripting skils/blueprint/unreal as I'm trying to transition from mobile to console/pc.

Now, i have 5 years of experience in mobile/web (large scale well known mobile studios) n not much in console, but I figure if I can work on learning and improving my ability with the above tools, I should clearly have a good opportunity in several console studios.

Where I'm at though, in vancouver, canada there are very few console studios per se. And the one big one, the coalition is great(I had an interview as well, and they liked my design strengths but unfortunately were looking for more advanced BP/scripting experience). They did say that since they liked my design skills they'd be keeping me on file for a slightly less 'technical' position that might be coming up soon.

I'll be continuing to improve my technical scripting skills in the meantime but it's the catch 22 again. How can I get the kind of experience I need to get these jobs that I really, truly am passionate about? Additionally, I'm looking at a few open positions, but these are at mobile studios, and that just reallly doesn't energize me. I want to continue learning and improving but while I can sustain myself over the next few months with savings, I'm a little concerned about overall how it may look on the portfolio, and potentially affect income if I don't apply to those mobile studios.

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I'm really torn. I really want to put in the work and absolutely make my next step a console studio, no matter what. I just want to understand what I need to do or get some kind of affirmation that learning and mastering BP/scripting will uplift my resume to be considered effectively for these positions.

Another thing on mind is that my strengths are in mission/systems and feature design and ofc not AS much in scripting. But clearly that's something super important for most console devs along with level design and I just haven't seen a game/gameplay/systems designer position open at any of these studios here in vancouver for the past several (~3) months. My assumption is that given its the new year, most places will be hiring for new folks soon. But like before, it's just that. An assumption.

Is it a bad idea to not apply for a mobile sr. game designer opportunity that is available even though I really would rather work on my skills and join a console dev, even if it means a lateral non-senior role with reduced salary cause it will make me happier working on what im really passionate about?

If I don't consider non-console jobs, I'll be focusing on going through several unreal blueprint tutorials and courses and also making several games/projects from the ground up myself to gain the confidence and build the proof of experience for future opportunities. If this is not the best way to build this experience, then can you suggest something that would be a good method?

Thanks!

nova tartan
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It sounds like you are cutting it close with finances. You don't want to deplete your savings and NEED a job.
Are you willing to relocate for a better job? If you limit your self to one highly competitive role in one highly competitive city, your chances are worse.
How many job posting and interviews are you seeing? Working at one job doesn't mean you have to stop looking, and it's often seen as a good thing that others are willing to pay you for your work compared to being unemployed.
A few months of self guided tutorials likely won't take you from designer to coder.

royal lintel
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One note...

My assumption is that given its the new year, most places will be hiring for new folks soon. But like before, it's just that. An assumption.
At least for a studio like the coalition, hiring isn't seasonal. It's based on the needs of the studio's project(s) - staffing ramps up as projects go from preproduction into full production. And most of that "ramped" staffing will be vendors (contractors - hiring is usually through a staffing agency, not through the studio itself). FTE positions are much less affected, though there's usually some attrition at the end of a project that opens up positions.

pure flame
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From my experience, it is totally worth it to take a pay cut in order to get into the industry you want to be in if totally necessary. Working on things you enjoy and are passionate about far outweigh the salary difference in the long run. Being miserable isn’t worth a slight offset. That being said, it’s still smart to be working at a company while working on your skills on weekends and nights. I tried living off of savings, and let me tell you, it runs out QUICK. Better to be employed, have insurance, and a steady paycheck to take stress off while you learn what you need. Learning takes time and cramming 8+ hours a day or more may in fact be equal to a good 4-5 at night as far as retention and interest goes. Most of this is completely anecdotal so take it with a grain of salt, but I suggest maintaining a role even if it is for a brief period of time. Who knows, it may not be as brief as you hope 🤷🏼‍♂️

somber brook
somber brook
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It's just tiring and been a really draining time for me, and seeing myself need to do 'another' year elsewhere not doing what I really want to, makes me afraid I'll not ending up doing my best there and hamper my chances elsewhere or that it'll affect my ability to actually learn over (4-5 or even 2-3 hrs) at night since i'll be tired at the end of the day.

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I so want to (Work time) work on what I love and then (feel good about) come home and work or explore side projects or other aspects of life after-work

kindred mason
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No need to relocate. Plenty of remote jobs available.

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As for how to get experience, free and cheap. Gamejams.

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Just keep on pumping them out every weekend. Build up that design/scripting portfolio like a boss.

somber brook
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@pure flame be employed, have insurance, and a steady paycheck to take stress off - that is a solid point as well haha

somber brook
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Thanks!

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Thing is I still need to build my skills enough to be able to make stuff from the ground up

kindred mason
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That's why you look for teams

somber brook
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ah

kindred mason
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You aren't working on a solo project

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You are trying to get a job at a studio. You do a bunch of gamejams with different team sizes, it shows you can work alongside randoms and produce something.

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GGWP

pure flame
# somber brook This is kinda what I was looking for. Can you tell me a bit more? It's been feel...

As far as leaving early on a portfolio goes, I have multiple friends/coworkers who have company hopped anywhere from 4-6 months twice in a row and both moves were hikes in salary for better companies. Whoever is hiring you is going to want you if you’re talented and as long as you have a good reason for leaving, they won’t generally hold it against you. Learning even 2 hours a night while working another job helps take off the stress of cramming.

somber brook
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Fair points.

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@kindred mason Thanks again. That's strangely energizing to know that's totally doable

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And i have no idea why i had forgotten about it

kindred mason
somber brook
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Really? Love to hear about it

kindred mason
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I did it, and make a bunch of money now. End of story.

somber brook
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haha

pure flame
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I still suggest you set yourself a runway and apply for other jobs when it runs out. And that should be long before you come even close to exhausting savings

somber brook
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Assuming that means you got the job/a job like it that you were looking for

kindred mason
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Yup. Had plenty of well paying jobs over the years. Also, easy for me to get one when needed.

somber brook
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@pure flame Yeah i'm not exactly coming close but the fact that ive been looking at them means its probably not a good idea to rely on them

kindred mason
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Just be careful of "company hopping", anyone decent will pick that up and red flags will come up. Possibly not even getting into the "contact for interview pile".

somber brook
somber brook
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If I jumped early from a next 'temporary' job, it would only be for something I intended to stay long term

pure flame
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Yea jumping once when an opportunity arrived is totally understandable and acceptable in my opinion

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Especially if its a career change

somber brook
somber brook
kindred mason
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Forums, Discord...

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Plenty of places. 95% of people hiring now are doing remote.

somber brook
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Feels like I've been in my head of late due to my situation

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All this has been REALLY helpful you guys

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Really appreciate it

pastel estuary
lilac walrus
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this is not the channel for this

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use the job boards

spiral badge
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apologies, it was more as a request for aid on how to begin a career, as its quite overwhelming

spiral badge
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as alot of jobs require experience and a portfolio, im a little lost on how to get that for people

pastel estuary
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i suggest you to copy your long post, because ill be removing it in a minute

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also #old-rules :)
thanks in advance for reading them!

lilac walrus
# spiral badge as alot of jobs require experience and a portfolio, im a little lost on how to g...

Well, making things is a good start, and working with other people is also useful experience - but you'll want to advertise positions in the jobs boards. I'd also really downsize your expectations on what you're going to be able to achieve.

Play a game like Alba; it's about two-three hours of content, it's quite light on mechanics and it's pretty low fidelity in terms of art. When you've finished it, go and look at the credits - it took a fair number of people to get that game to market, and it probably spent a healthy amount of time in development.

spiral badge
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yah, i plan to make about 5-7 small projects to show my skill soon

flat gazelle
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Quality > Quantity

lilac walrus
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^ - I would make one really small, but fairly polished game if you can do it. If you need assistance from other disciplines in order to create it, that's fine, so long as the work is getting done

spiral badge
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gonna have a small game, ill be sure to make a devlog for you!

celest hemlock
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One finished small game that you can play from beginning to end with detailed documentation on what you did, why you did it is much more useful than 5-7 unfinished small projects

digital gate
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Worth noting that tightly scoped projects which achieve their goals is also good- agree that anything feeling obviously unfinished but abandoned is bad.

steel creek
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Finished product. No point me hiring you to finish mine, if you cant even finish yours.

somber brook
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Anyone from canada here?
Currently in Vancouver, but I'm trying to consider opportunities in toronto and montreal. My goal is to work on console games so i'd only apply for console studios if applying outside vancouver.

I'm a game designer and have got 5 years exp in mobile studios n have been learning scripting. The issues I have with toronto are that its just got Ubisoft and basically no other major console studio, besides rockstar which im not really into for my own design preference.

Montreal does seem to have a bunch of studios. But there's the whole french is basically needed thing, along with their general anglo-disliking and high taxes + even worse winters and a host of other quebec only things which makes me a bit apprehensive of realistically considering moving there.

I recognize that these negatives might not be so negative and am trying to be open to be convinced otherwise. Additionally, this is more personal life/relationship future stuff but I'm 28 and intend to find someone to build a relationship and family with. If I move somewhere it'd make sense to move to a place where there's a bunch of opportunities in case I need to switch studios for whatever reason or, simply to explore other opportunities so that I can stay there long term and build a family, which makes toronto a bit restrictive.

But then again, ubisoft presents a great career opportunity in terms of being able to work on large scale aaa games.

Thoughts? Feedback? Suggestions? "You're missing the point/Isn't your focus console dev? Then go for XYZ..." really appreciated 🙂

shadow kelp
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You don't need to speak French to live in Montreal. Been there a few times when I was at Ubi. Never came across any 'anglo-disliking' either.

flat gazelle
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UDC was fun

shadow kelp
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I really rate Ubi as a career move though, enjoyed my time there. A lot of options open to you with mobility, and good learning opportunities.

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Yep, really liked UDC