career-chat

[lean pebble]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl0oneY1paE

[tidal moth]

become a designer, suck at both 😉

[lean pebble]

If you want the tl;dr, it's that you need to not think of committing to something as "I will have to do this until I die", more as an opportunity to try and figure out if it works for you

Personally I've struggled a lot with finding what I really want to stick to, for now I seem to be enjoying doing 3d design, but I still don't have a concrete idea what direction I want to go in. I definitely want to work in the gaming industry, but I have a mostly crippling fear of applying for a job and not being good enough at it and being embarrassed, so I kinda don't try which is a terrible thing. So I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice in that regard.

[obsidian fossil]

Okay ty

[remote saffron]

make indie games so you have to do everything 😆

[lean pebble]

That's what I'm doing rn, but sometimes I think that might not be the best idea. Since I don't really learn most things very deeply.

[remote saffron]

yeah but you can try out multiple stuff, and focus on the ones you like

and you will have an easier time communicating with people from other discipline if you have a basic knowledge

but indeed, knowing almost nothing about everything is not good

but knowing everything about almost nothing is also not the necessary the best 😆

[lean pebble]

True true

[honest cipher]

@cinder swift not here

Look at the job board

[cinder swift]

okay

[pastel estuary]

!strike @cinder swift posting the same content on multiple channels and not abiding the rules. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, else you'd be 1 strike away from a permaban.

[vagrant bramble]

:triangular_flag_on_post: WorldTech Games#1772 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

[steady pewter]

Need a cheerleading icon...

[cinder swift]

!help

[vagrant bramble]

@cinder swift, Check your direct messages. :incoming_envelope:

[hybrid phoenix]

Something like that, @steady pewter?

[steady pewter]

It can do, I was imagining something... more classic 💃

Thanks 👍

[carmine siren]

@pastel dragon Use the job board for this #instructions

[plucky hatch]

Trying to make the world a better place for freelancers, if you have a moment take a second a nddrop an upvote, thank you <3
https://www.reddit.com/r/Scams/comments/k5pjis/freelancercom_literally_steals_money_from_their/

[green oyster]

last time I used that it was awful. if i remember right, I got a first project, but once I accepted it, their cut was substracted from my balance, putting it to -15$, meaning i was unable to do much with a negative balance. then the project got cancelled and nothing happened with that balance. left immediately

[lilac walrus]

How can their cut take you into the negative?

that's not even a cut, that's a fee

from reading through that though, they are absolutely breaking the law, and it's pretty clear cut

[green oyster]

@lilac walrus that's how it worked then, a few years ago - if a client accepted me, and payout was say 100$, 15% of that for freelancer.com was cut from what I was getting, immediately after getting the project. Once completed I think I would get 100$ + difference. I guess they wanted to force you to add credit, because with a negative balance you couldn't do a lot of other things like bidding on stuff (but my memory is sketchy). I do remember chatting with support and they temporarily making my balance 0$ so I could do X and Y. It was horrendous and I quit using it immediately. So not surprising they keep doing this kind of stuff

[honest cipher]

@autumn thorn not here

[pastel estuary]

@autumn thorn please read the #old-rules and #instructions channel instead of blatantly posting in the wrong channel. thanks.

[autumn thorn]

I apologize!

[brave owl]

so im watching some stuff on how much small youtubers make out of curiosity (small amounts, who would'a guessed!) i dont understand why though that in the US... someone whos self employed pays more tax than someone who works under someone else.

What i'd seen, and from a quick google is: self employed tax: ~15%, standard 'pay as you earn tax' ~10%? how is this a thing? Does this apply to lone indie devs in the US too?

Are they penalising people for trying to start up on their own? whats the reasoning behind this? in the UK by being self employed youre usually much better off if you can get the work, at the tradeoff of bigger risk and less perks such as holiday time and sick pay...

[finite grove]

Being a small business in the U.S. is a nightmare and can be a bit better or worse depending on what state you're in. Some states stack even more taxes and fees on top of that and you have to file taxes monthly so the extra paperwork is always in the way.

[brave owl]

why do they do that though. its like they want existing big business to thrive and small startups to die

like "look competition, burn it with fire!"

[finite grove]

Big businesses more or less own the govt

[brave owl]

did someone lobby for this?

makes me glad i dont operate a small business from america tbh

[finite grove]

You made a good call there LUL

Oh yeah that doesn't work here. Haha

[lilac walrus]

The employer also pays tax. If you have your own business in the UK then you have to pay tax for every person on payroll.

[brave owl]

true, im referring to a self employed single-person micro business

as a sole trader, without the requirement to do profit and loss etc that comes with a limited company, coupled with the extra risk that exposes you to

its easy to work out a lot better off like this, completely legally, if youre willing to take on the risk, isnt it

well... i suppose "easy" is the wrong word. its not easy to find and keep customers

[lilac walrus]

Sole traders in the UK have to pay VAT on earnings above a certain threshold, and have to pay both class 2 & 4 national insurance payments

it can work out cheaper

[brave owl]

this is why most people pay an accountant though right?

[lilac walrus]

yup

[brave owl]

so they dont have to learn all this tax stuff

all i know, and i checked to make sure, is that im earning nowhere near enough to be paying either VAT or nat ins. yet

it doesnt take long though before you hit that threshold

[pastel estuary]

deleted 60 messages because #old-rules

[hybrid phoenix]

Was that the uh... Interesting discussion about censorship? Can't quite recall if that was here?

[pastel estuary]

yup

[tidal moth]

discussion about censorship censored, and we're not even in the UK 😱

[pastel estuary]

it was rather nsfw, even if most of us work from home atm.

[tidal moth]

yeah I recognize that I was just lightly poking the (russian) bear

[gentle stone]

Any (preferably) German freelancer here? Im in a pickle with my current student status, my work at a company, insurance and a possible 6 months freelance contract that would take most of my time

It's a complicated issue so I don't really wanna post wots here

[brave owl]

the irony lol

[zenith hedge]

Helo

Dead chat

[flat gazelle]

Lost?

[plucky hatch]

@wise cliff Which Crackdown did you work on, if you don't mind me asking..?

[wise cliff]

@plucky hatch Sure, it was Crackdown 3

[twilit bane]

I was literally dealing with this today. I operate as a sole-proprietor / freelancer and absolutely pay more in taxes, in addition to having to pay for all of my own benefits. Most of my work is YouTube, too. Actually just moved out of CA to another state in part because of taxes.

[marsh prism]

Did the same two years ago, CA became redonkulously expensive

[valid delta]

O how i wish i could work for epic. 😩

[flat gazelle]

Why?

I'm not saying you shouldn't, it would just be interesting to hear your reasons.

[pure flame]

It would be interesting at the least to see how things work internally and the knowledge you would gain would be quite useful I'm sure. Still, there is a lot of pressure working for such a large company.

[flat gazelle]

Doesn't that hold true for any large company with engine development?

[tidal moth]

obviously for the company barbeque every year

[flat gazelle]

I mean, I'm sure it's a great place to work, but I find the reasoning about ones career choices interesting.

[tidal moth]

I definitely agree, I just like taking the piss 😅

@flat gazelle so what would a hypothetical company need to attract you?

[flat gazelle]

Since I just moved company twice, it's all very close at heart, I guess that's why I'm interested by others choices.
For me, I want to work with good people, so if there are people I know are really good at what they do and easy to work with that's a huge plus.
I want them to work in an area that interest me. My previous job was not in games, but in Realtime VFX. I think that's a cool area to explore. My current one tries to figure out how to build games more sustainably for the future. That's something I really like since I come from a background of proceduralism and process building along with my main work. I like to work on interesting projects, though that's a lower priority. I like to have a lot of freedom. Freedom to make my own decisions and mistakes. And so on and so on. 😄

[tidal moth]

it's interesting to hear that for sure. I reckon it varies a bit for each discipline.

I work in design, and one of my goals with design is to be able to establish more accountability for design in general. I often see various design roles misunderstood or misinterpreted, both in and outside the industry, and one of the reasons behind that is that the knowledge necessary is all tacit. I've been lucky to have my design journey infused with rational approaches, and so I'm hoping that push that more in the industry as a whole. I would like to see more companies take similar approaches, or at least encourage the development of them internally if nothing else.

so it's imperative to me to see that in a prospective employer

[marsh stream]

What age do you guys think is the average age to enter the industry?

[lilac walrus]

Probably around 23

[steady pewter]

It's not ~40? 🥲

[grand tide]

Probably around 21+

Youngest I’ve seen

[marsh stream]

Yeh, it was actually a silly question to ask, apologies. Age wouldn't matter, Im sure. Im just worried. Currently 24 (graduated 2 years ago). Feeling disappointed I haven't already entered the industry. Naive expectations perhaps

[hybrid phoenix]

Anywhere from 12 (depending on how you define "enter the industry") to 50

[steel creek]

most of the ppl flooding vfx the last 10 years have been 24-28

[hybrid phoenix]

I think the majority tends to be mid-late twenties

[steady pewter]

... to 50 😱

[flat gazelle]

24 - 28 seems familiar. There are outliers of course, but that's a very common span.

[fallow hatch]

Anyone knows how to start a game studio via online???

[craggy nacelle]

Call yourself a game studio. Done.

(you might need to register yourself as self employed or as a business depending on where you live but that's pretty much it)

[lilac walrus]

it's worth nothing that about 70% of those employed in the industry are also under the age of 35

[flat gazelle]

Nice! Still part of the majority

[fallow hatch]

Looking for people to start a game studio

[fallow hatch]

Hello, Im looking for 3d modeller, 3D Animator, Level Design, C++ Programmer, Environment, Concept Artist, Sound Engineer, Game Designer, Game Artist and Beta Tester Please DM me....

[flat gazelle]

Probably an idea to check the rules before the mods see it.

[steady pewter]

@fallow hatch jobs go to the jobs channels only

[marsh stream]

wow! Why is that??? Do people just get tired of the industry that quickly? :/

[lilac walrus]

bad pay, erratic work-life balance, high job instability

people tend to end up with families eventually and they can't live with those three things if they have dependents

[pure flame]

Yea that sounds about right. Far less responsibility usually at those ages without mouths to feed. The younger the more risk you are able to take on.

[hybrid phoenix]

So where do those people go?

[pure flame]

Well, from what I've seen at least, into more stable job fields, but still in software. Non-gaming fields more specifically, and then indy dev games on the side. That's what I ended up doing as well.

[tidal moth]

or if skills are non transferrable, flipping burgers

[hybrid phoenix]

Very much wondering where a tech artist such as myself would go

[tidal moth]

flipping VR burgers

or, film, vfx

or become a render programmer and take over the world

tbh I think there's always going to be a need for tech artists so I reckon it's a relatively safe career

at the time when this becomes crucial you may become more of a TAD

[fallow hatch]

Okay sorry

[shut tree]

a tech artist would prolly be plotting graphs 😛

make visual representation of math

[hybrid phoenix]

I do like graphs 👀

[shut tree]

you get 50 pages of text, the text has a lot of numbers and u turn em into line and circle graphs

lot of business there

[steel creek]

LaTeX needs competition.

[plucky hatch]

Man, idk if I should get back into UE4 or launch a software company..

I'm a .NET backend developer myself, doing a degree right now but been programming for 7 years, so landed a full time system engineer job rather easily while doing the degree.

Idk if I can make a career with UE4 development though. I know that given enough time I could make something amazing, but I'm not sure whether finances will give me that much time

[tawdry bridge]

Hi im Tejas and i am really interested in getting into the game dev industry and i wanted to ask How did you start out? What are some tips on looking for Level design and asset modeling jobs or any job in that field? What are the recomended or required school classes i should take to get a job under a game company?

i wasnt sure where to ask that but please @ or dm me the responses please thank you so much

[tidal moth]

why not join an existing studio and learn the ropes real fast

[plucky hatch]

I'm definitely not at a stage where I can join a game dev studio

All I've done is some basic inventory system, basic item collection, health/stamina/mana bars, some spells etc.

[tidal moth]

you fluent in cpp?

[plucky hatch]

Not at all, I'm a C# developer, haven't touched c++ for years

[tidal moth]

that's definitely going to be your biggest hurdle then

I'd potentially go talk to the people in #cpp to hear about what good options are for this

or ask them to answer here

idk how this works tbh

[tidal moth]

first thing you really want to know before even attempting to join the industry: figure out what industry terms are and how to use them properly. then figure out which role you want to do.

[plucky hatch]

@tidal moth Are you a game dev in the industry?

[tidal moth]

you say you want to do level design, but the way you mention it with asset creation makes me think you're looking towards being an environment artist instead

yes

[tawdry bridge]

ok i want to model stuff and make eviorments and design levels

[tidal moth]

I'm not a programmer though. or well, not strictly a programmer

[plucky hatch]

Designer I assume?

[tidal moth]

yes

I do have a background in software development

but I focus on design work

[plucky hatch]

Well, that would be my biggest issue with deploying anything usable

[tawdry bridge]

ah ok yea an environment artist

[tidal moth]

so now that you are a bit familiar with the terminology, go look up resources on how to start, and what to do with it. be aware that the market for artists, all artists really, is extremely cutthroat

[plucky hatch]

https://gyazo.com/77287ef8b0f33980b6f8c7139250ab3d

[tawdry bridge]

okok thx that rly helps

[plucky hatch]

I mean, with the functionality of blueprints, making things work with any past programming experience is rather easy, at least for the base concepts

[tidal moth]

sure

[plucky hatch]

Doing things like combat, crafting, inventory, levels etc. is really simple for me with blueprints and the experience I have from .NET development

[tidal moth]

but if you're selling yourself as a programmer

you really need to step beyond that

[plucky hatch]

Yeah I really don't know if I want to move to the game industry though..

[tidal moth]

even I do some things in cpp nowadays either because BPs are limiting or because it is faster to do in cpp

[plucky hatch]

Do I give up a 6 figure chill remote job as a system engineer to work as a game dev?

That's the issue I'm having

What the perks would be, pros, cons etc.

[tidal moth]

entirely up to you

[plucky hatch]

Just like everything else in life 😉

[tidal moth]

it's what drives you and motivates you. I have a friend working in fintech who is fine doing it on the side

[plucky hatch]

The issue I see with joining a game dev studio as a developer is that you never really get to work on what you want, at least that's the impression I get from people that made that choice

[tidal moth]

depends again on "what you want" is

to be honest as soon as you cross the technical threshold in game dev you're more concerned with problem solving than you are with "just" the creation of a game

[plucky hatch]

Programming just problem solving to be fair

[tidal moth]

so is design

so is art, even though the rules for solutions are intangible

[plucky hatch]

My problem with design is that I am simply not creative enough when it comes to it

Sure, I can open a picture of something and recreate it pixel perfect in blender, but that's not original in any way

[tidal moth]

I can't speak for you but maybe you get to a point where after some time in the industry you can move gradually towards design as you understand more of the circumstance in which to employ creative thinking

creativity isn't some divine blessing either

you can be as methodical about it as you can with programming

[plucky hatch]

Yeah, but you can be or not be a visual person

At least that's the way I see it

[tidal moth]

not all design is visual necessarily

building systems and letting them interact with each other is still design

[plucky hatch]

I'm talking strictly graphical design here

[tidal moth]

graphics design is not a thing in the industry

unless you're talking about logos

[plucky hatch]

3d design, modelling, animations

[tidal moth]

3d design is not a thing either

[plucky hatch]

Then what would you call the process of designing a 3d character?

[tidal moth]

if you're using a 3D package as a designer, you're doing whiteboxing at worst.

a character artist makes a character

it is strictly in the realm of art

there is no design problem to solve with creating a character

at least not from a visual perspective

[plucky hatch]

There is: creativity

I can not come up with a fitting character design for a certain aspect of the game

[tidal moth]

you're conflating two domains here

[plucky hatch]

I can develop all the functionality the game needs, but I won't be able to figure out how to have a tree look

[tidal moth]

that's art, not design

[plucky hatch]

What's the difference? I always used those as synonyms

[tidal moth]

anything that is cosmetic is art

anything that is interactive is design

there is an extremely low coupling between the two

[plucky hatch]

Okay that makes sense, thanks

The more you know 😐

[tidal moth]

I'd say as a newbie to game dev one of the most important things you can do is familiarize yourself with what the main domains/departments are and how they work

[plucky hatch]

I mean, development is not a problem for me, I'd say everything else is

When I play a game I know at the top of my head how to develop that functionality in code

Of course, there would be problems on the way that I would face, but everything can be solved given enough time

Art however, is like black magic for me.

[tidal moth]

good thing is you don't need to do everything

there's a very good reason most games are made by teams instead of individuals

[plucky hatch]

It would definitely help the motivation to have a redberry bush not look like an orange weed plant

Won't even mention the fact that the material used for those berries is the default UE4 chair material 😐

I take it all back, it's a shelf

[tidal moth]

if it's that big of an issue then look for assets that fulfill the brief for you and use those. sometimes you can get some free, sometimes not. but honestly for any type of prototype work I'd settle for placeholders

but even here if you really wanted the fruit to be red it's not a massive graphical task to do that, and the people in the #graphics channel could easily help you out

but once again, building your prototype to be functional is much more important than making it look nice

[plucky hatch]

Can't argue with that..

[tidal moth]

... unless you're an artist showing off your art skill

[plucky hatch]

Btw, did they add the functionality of turning "always on top" off yet?

I last did UE stuff in 2017 and remember that was the main reason I gave up

Like being able to click on the window in the bg and have this one minimize

[tidal moth]

I'd ask those questions in the appropriate channels

they're not for here

[twilit isle]

How do i start a career in level desing?

[indigo summit]

lol

[twilit nymph]

I’d first start off making a few different maps to show you can make a level. Have screenshots of each level as you progress is designing them, etc. just show you are competent in making levels quickly and efficiently.

[spiral cosmos]

Where is the best unreal engine studio? What do you think

[craggy nacelle]

Coffee Stain seems to be doing pretty good work with Satisfactory at least

not so familiar with other UE based games tbh

[pure flame]

Hi-Rez has always produced some of my favorite UE titles.

[flat gazelle]

I heard Fortnite did OK

[steel creek]

The one that gives you a job if you apply

[spiral cosmos]

Wow... but first I must decide where to apply

[lilac walrus]

you apply to literally anywhere you think you might want to work and that has a job opening

[steel creek]

Exactly as ambershee said... you should apply everywhere just like when you went to University and apply to the one that you wanted and the other 10 that you would take as back up just in case, because most likely the one that you wanted might not have picked you

[remote saffron]

which studio made that Fortnite game? Apple, right?

[vernal peak]

Are u flippin joking? And no it's not apple who made fortnite it's Epic Games same creator of our beloved unreal engine 4 going 5 soon!

[ashen lynx]

What do you mean? Fortnite was like one of the best MAC exclusives.

[steel creek]

Man jokes just don't translate in 20 20 huh... lel

[remote saffron]

Isn't Apple MegaGrants come from all the Fortnite money Apple got? They use it to support other devs developing for the app store.

[vocal lagoon]

i dont know what you mean, unreal was created by apple

[remote saffron]

pretty sure I have read that apple got way too much money from Fortnite, so pretty sure they must be at least the publisher

[ashen lynx]

Don't forget the iXel, a large library of photoscanned assets and textures.

[craggy nacelle]

I always found it impressive that they can run games on network protocol level with MAC addresses

[digital gate]

Guys you've got it all wrong. PUBG Corp makes Fortnite and are trying to break into hardware. Coming off of dismal Gears performance Epic wanted to chase that high and so they made Player Unknown: Battle Royale and Player Unknown: Save the Planet!

[craggy nacelle]

They should have bought the rights to Radical Heights

[digital gate]

@spiral cosmos If you truly don't care, pick a region you want to be at and start with studios there. You can find UE work all around the globe, and so you should limit your selection there.

Or end up in late stage interviews with companies out of the country

[spiral cosmos]

Ok, thanks to all guys and girls for your answers 👍

[toxic wedge]

I just scheduled an interview for a job as a senior unreal engine game developer and it seems like a FANTASTIC job and all but i haven't done much Unreal C++ in a few months. Super nervous although I'm diving through the API docs to get a refresher rn.

Are there any resources to act as a quick refresher on Unreal's C++ API or should I continue my trek through the documentation?

[gentle stone]

My experience is you learn the specifics for a task while you do it, I wouldn't stress it. The important part is that you can navigate the codebase, not that you recite some function signature while asleep

[toxic wedge]

Right, but my main concern is that I'm being interviewed for a senior position... at 18... without a degree... without any formal experience working in tech besides my own startup, some freelance stuff and a shitty sysadmin job

[toxic wedge]

I just feel like I REALLY need to compensate for those disadvantages in case anything gets asked that could trip me up.

[craggy nacelle]

I think as long as you know the key points you should be good

eg. things like the UPROPERTY macro and how it should be used and so on

I mean those are really the major difference between C++ in general and how you work with it in UE4

[toxic wedge]

Yeah, ofc

I mean, I have been doing UE4 since it released to the public and using its C++ since not long after.

I'm comfortable with it.

Just really trying to overcompensate for my lack of professional experience especially after a few months of rust buildup.

[tacit siren]

things like UPROPERTY macro and how it should be used, i'd expect an interviewee for a junior position to know that

[green oyster]

senior position... at 18... without a degree 🤔

[digital gate]

I uh. I kinda feel that if you got to the technical interview you might have a chance at that company. But maybe they're really relaxed about expectations?

Better know the reflection macros; better know the Game Framework; better be able to reason about shapes and maths and stuff. Expect your edge case knowledge to be tested, and know how to not know something without floundering.

Algo knowledge might be good. Actually have some experience being "senior" on a team.

Have a favorite mechanic from a game you didn't work on.

Also be familiar with newer c++14/17/20 stuff at least conversationally.

[spice dagger]

Yeah id be worried if a Senior didnt know lol

[digital gate]

I might ask a senior about Uhhhh that one file that matters here 😉

Kinda all sly like

That file and it's contents are pretty neat and usually quicker to reference than the online docs for it

[steady pewter]

Hmm.... It's subjective judgement what makes a senior. Not to be a demotivating, but at least around, technical skills make just part of the desired profile. Social, previous experience and project management skills play big role. I have no HR experience, but for over the 50+ sw devs I worked with, you need years and years for that.

[ashen lynx]

Hmm.... It's subjective judgement what makes a senior. Not to be a demotivating, but at least around, technical skills make just part of the desired profile. If that opinion is allowed to grow, it will afflict industry as a cancerous tumor, sucking out everything good that remains. Don't prioritize soft skills for technical positions, unless your aim is sabotage.

[steady pewter]

While I understand the concern, in practice you work with people and you need to build project with business value. If you don't care about these two for example, yeah go on with only tech skills.

[ashen lynx]

Every entity, large or small, where this hiring vision comes to life, is bound to decay and shut down pretty fast with a reliable certainty. Only exceptions are cases where revenue sources, not connected with the product, dominating.

[steady pewter]

I strongly disagree then 😄 Only way where only your tech skills matter (languages, tools) is when you work alone/isolated and don't sell anything.

That of course is highly biased situation. Most people know how to communicate and know that if they can't follow up on plan, or make their own, they gonna be busted.

[ashen lynx]

You are welcome to disagree. My judgment is based on two pillars only, one being observation of a few companies and employment in one of these, where HR dept took a complete hold over recruitment and prioritized soft skills more than or equally to technical competence, when considering for technical positions, with direct outcome being loss of several key contracts and bankruptcy procedure or complete wipe of HR dept and a period of crisis management a result.
And second pillar being pure statistical distribution. A person, lacking in technical competence, but possessing strong soft skills, is statistically much more likely to exist, than a person, having good technical knowledge, but not having sufficient secondary skills for day to day operations.

[steady pewter]

I don't see how that statistical distribution (2nd pillar) advises against soft skills. As I wrote, they are necessary, and one side of the coin. You don't choose strongly biased person whether on the soft or tech side. What you have said about your 1st pillar is an example of such bad decision. You cannot do only with tech skills, you cannot do only with soft skills.

[shadow kelp]

Beyond a base level of competency in all areas, the individual isn't what is important, it's the skills across team as a whole that matter

I am a senior programmer, but I am the first to admit I am not a hardcore C++ wizard. My strengths are in management. I have people on the team that are the code wizards.

Not that I am a code chump though 😛 But seniority is largely about soft skills, attitude and teamwork.

[solar eagle]

I love how euphenisms are the only problem here from what I see.
What I mean by that is that nowadays people call "skills" things like organizing oneself and some others in a team, which comes naturally and with experience for the majority of human beings. So "management skills" are overrated, and "managing" working with a small team isn't really management now is it?! It's like saying you have a manager position in the group because you organized where all of you will go to lunch. It's amazing how this stupid newtalk is poisoning every scientific field.
There are no soft skills, they're a lie. These "skills" come naturally for any intelligent and emotionally stable human being.

And if you are not a team player, unless you are a f genius, grow up you spoiled little easily-offended, frustrated spiteful creature - it boils down to that in men terms IMHO.

[shadow kelp]

People management is very much a skill and it takes time, experience, and a willingness to learn to be good at it.

[solar eagle]

yes

people management not an office of 5 management

[steady pewter]

Are you picking on words? In such conversation I would compare skills, to experience and capability. You definitely use skills only with regard to "soft" skills, but not the "hard" skills. How so? Both of these are qualities which develop in some direction with experience.

[ashen lynx]

So "management skills" are overrated, and "managing" working with a small team isn't really management now is it?! It's like saying you have a manager position in the group because you organized where all of you will go to lunch. Yeah, somehow general organisation matters on a lower level got transferred into area of mysterious management skills, where work distribution and planning is your technical skills, extrapolated from knowledge and experience.

[solar eagle]

@steady pewter Because I totally understand what @ashen lynx was pointing out from experience in multiple institutions (not gaming industry, but superior education, NGOs etc). Over the years, I saw super competent people being pushed aside, as two-faced imbecils and easily-offended, language-obsessed good-for-nothings came in and spoiled all of the organization with their censureship, inflated useless documents, meetings and what have you...Why? because any IQ 85 can be charismatic or learn soft skills. That's why they are called soft. But tech is another story altogether!

[steady pewter]

Being senior is not all about witting code 🤷‍♂️ I don't know single person from all people in the sw industry who will tell you that. Except if they are juniors.

[ashen lynx]

khem

That rises doubts.

[shadow kelp]

The challenge in game development, certainly in AAA, is not so much the writing of the code and creating of the assets, it's keeping several hundred people working together towards a common goal.

[ashen lynx]

game development is not any different from any other field in that respect.

[steady pewter]

@solar eagle There is a difference between good management and the management skills which a Senior needs. You just throw examples of bad managers, which are likely frequent, and say the consequences of their work are bad - hence, this means an employee, a senior, does not need any. That's not related at all.

[flat gazelle]

A senior doesn't need much people management skills. Some coaching here and there, but management tends to kick in more as a lead.

[solar eagle]

Yes @shadow kelp , I agree. However, as it happens, the companies doing best in AAA (and don't throw the "not all orcs" argument about CDPR), have technical managers in place, both in hardware - look at amd since they have an engineer as manager - and gaming - look at what happened to blizzard nord, most studios bought by activision etc. Businessmen ruined those companies.

[flat gazelle]

And saying that people management isn't a skill in small departments tells of a lack of experience with good vs bad leads.

[solar eagle]

or just having bad experiences @flat gazelle - which may be my case

[flat gazelle]

Yep, very likely.

That's an issue in games.

Many great artists get promoted into management roles without an interest for the management side of it.

The department then suffers. I've seen this first hand.

But I've also seen what a differnece it makes, even in a small 5 man department to have someone who can really lead the team and make sure everyone is aligned and happy.

[steady pewter]

Just to remark again as I see we shift toward "people" skills. Management, or "soft" skills term does not encompass only how well you communicate. It also includes qualities as how good you are managing your own work and leading it out to a product. It involves organisation, planning and etc. Not as much as a "manager", but in noticeable quality.

[shadow kelp]

Depends on the structure. Some studios, I didn't manage until Lead level. Currently I'm senior and have several direct reports

[flat gazelle]

Yeah, that's fair.

It's more common though, that it lands on the lead.

At least in places where there are lead vs principal tracks in place.

[ashen lynx]

@steady pewter I think that is not what definition of soft skill encompasses. desirable qualities for certain forms of employment that do not depend on acquired knowledge: they include common sense, the ability to deal with people, and a positive flexible attitude.

I am convinced that ability to plan, manage and deliver your own work as well as guiding others in doing the same is an acquired skill, very much reliant on your experience.

[shadow kelp]

'soft' skills in my mind is simply everything except the core competency. e.g. for a programmer, soft skills are anything that isn't the actual writing of code.

[steady pewter]

@ashen lynx people skill, managing projects and stuff are "soft" skills. I can go dig out better definitions, but this has been since ages and I have been participating in recruiting people, as well evaluating people according to such categories.

[shadow kelp]

there is space for people that are weak in soft skills. In a team of sufficient size, you can accommodate an absolute awesome programmer who will tackle the gnarliest bugs has godlike optimisation skills, but needs to be told exactly what to do and be chased up constantly to keep them on track....but they'll find it much harder to progress up the ranks.

[steady pewter]

... in fact the term we use around is not "soft" skills but "business" vs "technical" abilities.

Anyway, all this started as somebody wanted to enter a Senior position after high school. My remark was, that while knowing how to code is fine, there are other capabilities which are usually looked after other than this.

[flat gazelle]

I want to see how an 18 year old handles a cert bug xD

[steady pewter]

I'm open minded, but yeah... Youngest Senior colleague I had was like 25-30 old, after few years of participating in hard projects surrounded by many knowledgeable people.

All these positions are subjective however. A company can do whatever they want and put whoever they want in any position 🙂

[solar eagle]

Oh lol, I had no idea. Ok. Seniority comes with age, hence experience which = wisdom in any sort of field, and that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned. it's in the term itself wtf 😄

if it was my world, i wouldn't even let anyone under 30 or so to vote because they haven't seen enough of this life to actually understand politics, democracy and all that goes along with it, and they're easier to manipulate/prone to sloganism.

[remote saffron]

with that logic you should not allow anyone to vote

[hybrid phoenix]

That leads down to a whoooole separate rabbit hole of whether age relates to meaningful understanding of the world (which I really think it does not; some people are ignorant, some are not)

So while I'm tempted to properly respond to that, I'm not going to, because that's nowhere near #career-chat

[graceful topaz]

Anyone able to help integrating webrtc videoconferencing into UE gameplay or other way? We need urgent help

[solar eagle]

I'm tempted to explain, but yea, i agree, it would be a long talk :)@hybrid phoenix not suited for this channel at all 🙂

[hybrid phoenix]

@graceful topaz Have a read through #old-rules and #more-resources. You're in the wrong place.

[graceful topaz]

Oh sorry got the link passed on

[tidal moth]

maybe it's different for software engineers

but as a senior designer I've had much less focus on soft skills and more focus on responsibility over many areas, some degree of management, and some focus on fast implementation. you could argue that soft skills play a role in management sure, but it's been nowhere near the level of importance what I've seen people say here. I'd personally expect a senior to be forward thinking and aware of pitfalls in production and have a focus on things that could trip up their respective department, or indeed the project as a whole. I'd expect a constructive (but not necessarily positive) attitude that focuses on solving problems on a project wide scale

[flat gazelle]

Yeah, much mentioned here I would pin on a lead

[shadow kelp]

the single most important thing for a senior imo, is that they don't need to be told what to do, or given tasks. They have the experience and organisational skills to identify what needs doing and organise the necessary people to get it done, without being closely managed.

[tidal moth]

heavily depends on how the project is being managed

if the project has loose ramifications and a task breakdown isn't given, then I'd say yes

[shadow kelp]

obviously within the direction of the project as a whole, they'll have some high-level goal given to the team, the seniors are the ones who know how to get it done

[tidal moth]

but if the producers are content with doing task breakdown for entire teams in sprint meetings then I'd say an advisory role is OK enough

[scarlet hedge]

Is it normal for companies in the UK to hire for such low compensation?

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search/?currentJobId=2330914654

£22-25k starting annual salary, based on skills and experience

I mean this are practically McDonalds wages

[honest cipher]

UK gamedev wages have dropped a lot

specially for how expensive living in UK can be

[steady pewter]

Too many people?

[honest cipher]

and thats also specifically put as a entry level job

yup

[scarlet hedge]

I mean for a job in London how are you going to survive on 22K/year that's obnoxious

[honest cipher]

entry level + tons of CS grads/school guys means you get nothing

wiat holy fuck it IS london

that salary would already be terrible in one of the other cities where its much cheaper

on london its straight up not possible, at all, to live with that sort of money

[dry hill]

Look at it from the brightside: you get to have cozy room/dormmates

[honest cipher]

unless you live in an absolute shithole rendering only 1 room

[pastel estuary]

unless you bunk up with multiple team members

[scarlet hedge]

Yeah I'm not applying to that, I live in Cologne and have a cushy 50K/yr job as a front-end game dev. I just get notifications for new UI jobs occasionally.

Just makes no sense to see job postings like that. Are they looking for 17 year old interns?

[honest cipher]

yes

[scarlet hedge]

Then the quality of their product will suffer. The job posting also looks like something written by a non-tech.

[honest cipher]

a few years back, in spain, i was offered 1200 euros a month (this is after-tax) as VR programmer with Tequila games

[pastel estuary]

*take advantage of

[honest cipher]

on Madrid

[ashen lynx]

that is 22k after or before taxes ?

[honest cipher]

which is caputal of spain

not as expensive as london, but expensive anyway

rent tends to be on the 700-900 euro range

and being paid 1200

XD

[scarlet hedge]

900 for an apartment, studio? 2BR?

[honest cipher]

studio

[dry hill]

It's insane how low gamedev salaries are compared to other software engineering jobs

[scarlet hedge]

Damn.

[honest cipher]

@dry hill for the low end jobs

[scarlet hedge]

The coding quality is pretty piss poor as well.

[honest cipher]

stuff like mid/high tier engine devs do get a lot more pay

[dry hill]

Even low-end webdev work is paid tons better. It's so odd.

[scarlet hedge]

At least for web-games, because there's zero iteration.

[steady pewter]

Maybe they started to outsource a lot. These 22k GBP / year which you see as nothing, are kinda average salary for senior sw dev in company. That is, quite good salary.

[honest cipher]

then do webdev

[dry hill]

I did in the past 😄 I'm not trying to complain, just making a remark.

[scarlet hedge]

These 22k GBP / year which you see as nothing, are kinda average salary for senior sw dev in company
Maybe in India or China but definitely not in London.

[pastel estuary]

reminds me of one of my first jobs, moved to another country with the promise I could easily get some housing, but all the env artists where struggling to find houses. one buddy (massive metal-head) ended up renting a pink girly room from an elderly couple. and in the meantime I could barely pay the rent from the hostel I was in + have enough for food.

[scarlet hedge]

You can make that at McDonalds, I'm pretty sure.

[honest cipher]

on london thats def mcdonalds tier

[dry hill]

Got a fabulous story out of it at least 😄

[pastel estuary]

I ended up cooking for the other people at the hostel quite often, fun times when I look at it like that XD

[steady pewter]

@scarlet hedge EU, the far regions 😄

[scarlet hedge]

It's just crazy to me that they offer that sort of low pay. I wouldn't go lower than 45K at this point. I have a family, pets, and want to travel to visit relatives

These are things I expect to afford when working as a software developer

[honest cipher]

i got a job offer from london at 55k

medium tier engine dev

[dry hill]

Probably a question of "there's tons of people who are younger and don't expect that kind of compensation, who would jump at a chance to work in gamedev"

[honest cipher]

and even then with tax + cost it didnt give that much profit

[pastel estuary]

or still live at their parents house/basement

[scarlet hedge]

@dry hill Yup, and they have less experience and skill than older folks who have worked more than a summer gig.

[dry hill]

Yes :\

You get what you pay for

Pay peanuts, you get monkeys

[tidal moth]

entry level jobs in the UK industry start about that low yeah. programmer should get perhaps a bit more but it also depends on specialization

[honest cipher]

tho even then i saw some junior gamedev jobs at like 35k

[tidal moth]

it is entry level though

[honest cipher]

and that outside of london where its cheaper

[tidal moth]

so you can't expect the world

[honest cipher]

entry level thats just "scam the intern"

[tidal moth]

it means a junior role

[honest cipher]

no, thats below junior

[tidal moth]

it means you have to be trained

[honest cipher]

its an internship

or at least paying like an internship

[tidal moth]

then that's a really well paid internship

[scarlet hedge]

The way I expect it in western countries:

35K-45K -> Junior
45-60K -> Mid-range
60K+ -> Senior

[honest cipher]

for below subsistence wage? its literal minimum legal wage

[tidal moth]

well you should see what junior QAs earn then

[scarlet hedge]

QAs aren't devs

[tidal moth]

that's harsh

[honest cipher]

bruh

literal minimum wage

legal

is 20k

[tidal moth]

minimum wage yearly in the uk is about 18k btw

[honest cipher]

and they are paying 22k

in london

[tidal moth]

ah yeah if it's london it should be a bit higher

[ashen lynx]

60k for a senior is somewhat low. Like real low. It is before overtime pay I assume ?

[honest cipher]

assuming low tier senior?

there are plenty of tiers of senior-ness

[scarlet hedge]

what do you mean?

[ashen lynx]

well.. like average tier

not world top

[tidal moth]

saying QAs aren't devs when they are helping developing a game

[scarlet hedge]

so are artists but they're not devs

[honest cipher]

due to the inbalance in game schools and hobby gamedevs, entry level gamedev jobs atm are all at around minimum wage

[scarlet hedge]

so are writers but they aren't devs

[tidal moth]

so your idea of developers is programmers only?

[honest cipher]

you literally get more money at mcdonalds

also artists get literally min wage

[scarlet hedge]

when I say devs I mean software developers

but yes

[honest cipher]

programmers only slighly above

[flat gazelle]

"Only programmers are devs" Found the guy not in the industry!

[honest cipher]

ive seen artists being paid below minimum wage in spain quite often

[tidal moth]

I was gonna say

[scarlet hedge]

@flat gazelle I literally work for a game studio

[honest cipher]

the contract says 6 hours and pays min-wage for 6 hours, but gotta work 8 hours

or more

[pastel estuary]

tell your artists they are not devs. see how well that goes XD

[scarlet hedge]

at least in the company i work at, and the ones i've worked at, QA doesn't program

[flat gazelle]

Doesn't seem like it. Or maybe it's one of those hipster indies that doesn't release things.

[scarlet hedge]

I mean I work at a German company so there might be a translation issue

[dry hill]

I'd include artists under the dev umbrella, but I agree that Q&A feels separate

[flat gazelle]

Seems that way

[scarlet hedge]

I'll stop saying "dev" to mean "software developer"

[tidal moth]

no dude

[ashen lynx]

60k, if it is paid for 40 hour work week, before overtime pay, is alright, considering with crunchy crunch you can push to 80-90 tier.

[dry hill]

Not less valuable, but not a dev. Q&A tests, does not actually develop. I can see that terminology holding up.

Q&A super valuable, mind you.

[scarlet hedge]

yeah, i'm not diminishing their role

[tidal moth]

they are essential to the development of a game. they aren't in production, but they are still developers

[scarlet hedge]

but devs in my understanding means "software developers"

[dry hill]

Nobody said anything about not being essential

[scarlet hedge]

when you search "game developer" on linkedin do you ever see "artist" as a role?

[tidal moth]

I'm making the case that they are devs

[flat gazelle]

Yes

[tidal moth]

but again, seems a flawed understanding from someone perhaps not in the industry

wouldn't be a first on this discord either

[pastel estuary]

@icy citrus read the #old-rules please <_<

[flat gazelle]

I have developed many games, but only as an artist. So I should readlly remove all of them from my cv since I didn't develop them.

[scarlet hedge]

Honestly? Yeah. You shouldn't have "Game Developer" on your CV

[tidal moth]

lmao

[flat gazelle]

According to?

What are your credntials to police my title?

[dry hill]

Suppose it helps to define what constitutes a dev. If we include everyone that contributes in any way to the project, that's a rather big umbrella. Are managers devs?

[flat gazelle]

Yes

[tidal moth]

you mean leads?

absolutely

[dry hill]

No, managers

Like, finance folks, general managers, etc.

[tidal moth]

what kind of managers

[flat gazelle]

If you contribute to game: Game developer.

You gain NOTHING trying to exclude groups.

[scarlet hedge]

Nobody's excluding.

It's just terminology.

[dry hill]

Nobody is excluding anyone, this is getting really heated...

[tidal moth]

the two people excluding others saying nobody is excluding anyone lmao

[pastel estuary]

yea, better to... just walk away figuratively speaking hehe.

[ashen lynx]

Game developer is anyone, directly involved in development of a game. I guess no need to complicate it further.

[flat gazelle]

Correct

[scarlet hedge]

Video game artist
Video game developer
Video game tester

These are all important roles. But they are distinct roles.

[flat gazelle]

lol

[scarlet hedge]

You can obviously do more than one thing and many do.

[ashen lynx]

I think that is not how it is.

[flat gazelle]

It is not

[dry hill]

I can still see artist being grouped with dev. Depends a little.

[tidal moth]

it absolutely is not

and if you have actual game developers telling you this

[flat gazelle]

So when I code, I'm a dev, but when I just use the script I made, I'm not?

[tidal moth]

perhaps it's a good time to take a seat and listen

[dry hill]

Christ

You just killed the discussion

Appeal to authority

[tidal moth]

hopefully

if we're lucky

[ashen lynx]

I see only two legit offers there

[scarlet hedge]

Do you think any of those jobs are going to be for QA or Art?

[ashen lynx]

rest is shady shade

[dry hill]

The problem is, the bigger you make the umbrella of a term under the guise of inclusivity, the more diluted the term becomes. Nobody was at all trying to diminish people's importance or role within a team.

[scarlet hedge]

probably, i just searched game developer to get the screenshot, wasn't trying to get good results

[scarlet hedge]

exactly. if we didn't have artists we'd all have to deal with shudder programmer art in games

[dry hill]

The horror!

[scarlet hedge]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[ashen lynx]

I think you need to familiarize yourself with differences between entity and individual.

[flat gazelle]

I should clearly not have been allowed to speak at the Game DEVELOPER Conference as a lowly artist :*(

[tidal moth]

agreed

[flat gazelle]

I need to return my badge.

[tidal moth]

we're barred from this prestigious place

[ashen lynx]

Yeah, managing content pipeline, the only thing I have developed apparently was carpal syndrome. Ain't qualifying for developer either.

[scarlet hedge]

nobody ever said you were a lowly artist or that artists aren't valuable

[tidal moth]

carpal tunnel developer? 😄

tbh this industry is in dire need of protected titles

[dry hill]

🤦

[pastel estuary]

can all the non-devs please leave this discord, this is for unreal developers only.

[scarlet hedge]

Thought it was for slackers 🙃

[flat gazelle]

I'll boot up an unreal art discord instead.

[ashen lynx]

Most of those, who use words programmer and developer interchangeably, likely diversified/transitioned to game dev relatively recently and like from other fields of IT, but it does not justify such interchangeable usage.

[pastel estuary]

XD

[dry hill]

Can I join as a programmer? I'm an artist with code, too.

[flat gazelle]

Yep

[dry hill]

❤️

[tidal moth]

so inclusive

[dry hill]

#wholesome

[tidal moth]

unlike other people here

[pastel estuary]

i'll make a new discord for unreal devs so exclusive not even I am invited.

[scarlet hedge]

Fair enough. Could be different at other companies, and most of my work history has not been in the game industry. From what I can tell from job listings "Game Developer" does refer to programmer, though.

[flat gazelle]

All of my history has been in the game industry.

[pastel estuary]

the only thing to improve this discussion now is if someone goes "hey, some of my best friends are artists you know!"

[dry hill]

I mean, I'm both a programmer and an artist (without any pun or sarcasm).

😛

[scarlet hedge]

@flat gazelle Cool, but you're not bringing any references to your claim that "developer" can't specifically refer to a programmer.

like I just googled "game jobs" and these are the categories on the first site that comes up

[ashen lynx]

@scarlet hedge If you think of it, word itself has different implications. Programmer is the one, who can code. Developer is anyone who can assemble a working app and no care is given in what way, let it be a stitched abomination of code snippets from stack overflow or what not.

[dry hill]

Aha, but does a tester assemble?

I agree with that definition though

That's why I include artists under the term

[tidal moth]

production vs development

as in

development of a game isn't just production

[ashen lynx]

production is larger. If you are working as dedicated and certified water cooler recharger, you are not a developer, but can safely claim being involved in game production.

[dry hill]

Precisely

[tidal moth]

production is the act of producing something for the game

e.g. an asset

a system

a code snippet

even schedules

[ashen lynx]

If you see your HR slapping an add with Developer in job title, kindly hint him/her, that it is somewhat better to use programmer.

[flat gazelle]

or codemonkey

[dry hill]

HR making job adds is a disaster in and of itself 😛

[ashen lynx]

that works too

at least it is descriptive 🙂

[scarlet hedge]

is HR a Game Developer too?

[dry hill]

https://tenor.com/view/wink-ellen-show-rihanna-gif-5296646

[ashen lynx]

@scarlet hedge Is HR directly involved in developing of a game ?

[scarlet hedge]

Not directly, but to varying degrees I'd say everyone is involved.

Support "soft" roles are very important.

Like a scrum master keeps everyone in line and on task, but arguably doesn't actively "develop".

[tidal moth]

they develop schedules

[dry hill]

And this is exactly what is getting lost in this whole discussion. People see other not giving them a certain title as exclusion and diminishing their role, even though we're just talking about terminology. Not value.

[flat gazelle]

So a lot of people develop the game, but most of them are not game developers. Got it.

[ashen lynx]

If yes, than HR is a developer. If no, HR is not a developer. If there is any doubt if HR is involved or not, consider HR involved and pick accordingly. I am done.

[tidal moth]

I mean this is like the greenest hot take I've ever seen

[scarlet hedge]

I guess, but you saw my screenshots. It doesn't seem to be widely used to mean anything except for programmer.

It's just a word.

wouldn't even call this a hot take lmao

[ashen lynx]

Who is railroad worker?

Train driver is a railroad worker ?

What about a waitress in the cafe at a train station?

same story here

[scarlet hedge]

We're talking about software developers that work in games. Game Software Developer -> Game Developer. I assume that's why there's this misunderstanding. I don't think an analogy will help much here

[ashen lynx]

You don't put "looking for an experienced railroader" in your job add, when in reality you are looking for a track worker.

[scarlet hedge]

Fair enough.

my point is that when you search game developer you get thousands of results, none of which refer to artists/QA

[flat gazelle]

Why is it called Game developers conference if it includes more than just programmers?

Why does igda represent artists?

"The International Game Developers Association (IGDA) is the world’s largest nonprofit membership organization serving all individuals who create games"

all individuals who create games

[ashen lynx]

my point is that when you search game developer you get thousands of results, none of which refer to artists/QA I got your point. My point is all those thousands of results could be of pretty low standard, not being aware of what they want and why they want it.

[scarlet hedge]

because game developer can refer to anyone who participates in the game creation process, but in the context i originally used it we were talking about the role of software developer within the game industry - also called "Game Developer"

both are correct, nobody is excluded

role vs category

[tidal moth]

the problem is that you ONLY want to refer to it in one context

excluding the other context entirely

[scarlet hedge]

most major game companies differentiate, these aren't random indies

[scarlet hedge]

the other context wasn't part of the conversation

[tidal moth]

that's not true

[scarlet hedge]

we were talking specifically about how game developers (software developers) are being underpaid in the uk, and someone brought up how QA is paid even less

[flat gazelle]

https://ea.gr8people.com/jobs?page=1&keyword=developer

[tidal moth]

you're backpedaling here pretty hard

[scarlet hedge]

how so?

[tidal moth]

"oh it wasn't meant like that I only meant it as x"

[flat gazelle]

You should tell EA they are wrong

[scarlet hedge]

@tidal moth it was the context, you can scroll up

[flat gazelle]

https://careers.activision.com/search-results?keywords=developer

And activision

[ashen lynx]

Software developer, even if used outside of gamedev, is still a shady term. It is fine to use it as applied to entity, that develops software, but not a s job title. If you see a job posting of software developer, it can mean: The add poster is not really aware of what he/she is doing, or the post implies collaboration on the level of companies. Job tilte of software developer does not exist.

[tidal moth]

https://tenor.com/view/developers-gif-4458491

[tacit siren]

this conversation now only needs to somehow incorporate the "is blueprint programming really programming?" topic and it will be just... perfect

[flat gazelle]

Don't forget what counts as AAA

[tidal moth]

it definitely wasn't. I was in that conversation when you first mentioned it

[scarlet hedge]

you realize when you search "developer" on these sites they always refer to themselves in the description as a "developer"

When you find a job ad titled "Game Developer" that isn't synonymous with "Game Software Developer", let me know.

[flat gazelle]

When you find that role at a reputable studio, you let me know.

[dry hill]

Do they also include testers?

Genuinely curious

[flat gazelle]

If you contribute to making a game, you are a gamedev.

Easy as that

[ashen lynx]

I'd surprise you, they include janitors and handy men too.

[dry hill]

I mean, at that point 😛

[flat gazelle]

QA contribute massively, so they are devs.

[ashen lynx]

Was not a joke btw.

[dry hill]

I realise

[tidal moth]

tbh more than a few game studios need janitor developers to clean their code bases

[tacit siren]

QA peoples very much deserve to be called developers

[ashen lynx]

beyond doubt

[flat gazelle]

The last few studios I've been at have made it a point to mention that everyone employed there is a gamedeveloper since everyone is needed to build the game.

[dry hill]

QA is an incredibly important department. Without proper Q&A, you get shit. It's essential. I think we all agree on this 😉

[flat gazelle]

Mobile...

[tacit siren]

@scarlet hedge you are aware that its not that hard to google a site that "proves" 5G towers cause corona, right?

[dry hill]

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING, IT'S NOT REAL?

[dry hill]

https://tenor.com/view/conspiracy-theory-gif-10587157

[scarlet hedge]

not sure how that's related, but i guess? lol

[hybrid phoenix]

Let's just say I'd never apply to any job opening that calls for a "game developer", or worse, a "senior game developer"

[flat gazelle]

Same

[ashen lynx]

likewise

[flat gazelle]

Jaysus what a red flag

[scarlet hedge]

okay so should i stop?

[ashen lynx]

You can continue, but TLDR is pretty short: Some less involved people use developer / programmer/ engineer interchangeably. Said people should stop doing so to avoid confusion. That is all.

[dry hill]

I think it's time we sit in a circle, sing kumbayaa, and reinforce to everyone that really, we think everyone is important within the context of a gamedevelopment team and we're just arguing over silly terminology 😄

[ashen lynx]

You can't just sit back and relax when someone on the internet is not right.

[tidal moth]

true facts

[dry hill]

Oof, that is certainly true

I mean, xkcd even did a comic about it

[flat gazelle]

If you want to find more people who think only programmers are developers there are some good subreddits for it. You can count their total number of shipped titles with more than single digit sales on your fingers, but at least they agree!

[scarlet hedge]

Why the mood?

In the context of salary of game developers vs QA in the UK

earlier when this conversation started

"game developers" referred to programmers

[flat gazelle]

No mood. It's what Death said.

[scarlet hedge]

I mean you said it, nobody here was ever excluding or throwing shade but you're acting a pretty mad. honestly i didn't come here to argue semantics i genuinely just wanted to ask about the uk dev scene and why the pay is so crazy low

[flat gazelle]

I could contribute to that as I used to develop games in the UK, but my input is now excluded as I didn't program anything back then.

[hybrid phoenix]

UK pay is just generally crazy low compared to cost of living, regardless of industry

[scarlet hedge]

i can agree that using game developers to refer solely to programmers can be confusing but it was never supposed to come across pretentious toward the other roles

[ashen lynx]

You know, the problem is that humans are not used to having namespaces in their routine lives. Perhaps if they were, having a category named Game Developer with a Job Title Game Developer would work okey, if they are prefixed with their namespaces or if poster declares using namespace programmers in the begging of a sentence. Until it is reality, doing so brings nothing but confusion.

[flat gazelle]

As to why they called the role game developer is probably because it's a publisher who occasionally ports games.

Are Publishers even developers? 😄

[scarlet hedge]

@flat gazelle it's like you didn't look at any of the job ads i screenshotted?

[flat gazelle]

I'm looking at feral right now

The one you say gives context

[scarlet hedge]

@ashen lynx i actually agree a lot with this, i used to work as a touch screen software developer within the museum exhibit industry, which is already pretty niche.
can't search exhibit developer (get exhibit construction)
can't search for touch-screen developer (get mobile developer)

[dry hill]

That sounds pretty cool actually

[scarlet hedge]

honestly would go back to doing it but the economy for museums is shot right now

[tidal moth]

feral did say UI programmer though. no ambiguity

[ashen lynx]

For an average human being, touch screen developer is a person or entity, that develops touch screens, not the one who develops software for devices with touch screens. Why complicate or contribute to complication ?

[scarlet hedge]

touch screen software developer* then. lol

i typed it right the first time 🙃 but then got lazy

But yeah, museum exhibit development is some really cool creative stuff. You get to work with really smart people like curators and educators.

There's lots of politicking in my experience though. Departments always trying to trip each other up to get funding moved around.

[tidal moth]

unlike game developers, who aren't smart

[dry hill]

There's also an element of gratification I imagine that you're contributing to education

[scarlet hedge]

definitely, but i also get that gratification from (some) game development

some of the most satisfying dev (incl. art) i've done at the GGJ

i made a multiplayer flash game and people were joining and playing in their browser from different rooms on site it was really cool hearing people discover stuff and play together

[flat gazelle]

Yeah, I don't get the context inferred. Aaaanyway. I fully agree that some programmers wear the title Software developer even if it's uncommon in game dev. But he said "Artists aren't devs" which is just incorrect. That's what all this was about 🙂

[scarlet hedge]

okay, just a misunderstanding then. at the end of the day we're all creating games and being awesome

here are some of the exhibits i worked on https://olinkirk.land/exhibits/

Pretty ugly but i have good memories of doing that stuff! I didn't even know git back then and used dropbox for everything 😓

[dry hill]

Friendly resolutions to arguments on the internets?
what is this madness

[dry hill]

I love how it literally goes from renewable energy to fracking 😆

[scarlet hedge]

Yep it was fucking horrible. We had Haliburton and Exxon busting in telling us what we could/couldn't write because they were a major donor to the museum.

Luckily we managed to make a dope renewables section regardless.

[dry hill]

This makes me sad beyond all measure :\

[scarlet hedge]

Yeah, wanna know what's worse? We had several weeks of crunch at the end of our development on the energy hall and several of the construction crew (lots of art students) pulled extended shifts and all-nighters to get it done. I did some extended shifts too but my work was largely done. Some injuries happened on the floor with one person being nearly blinded. We were understaffed, it was awful.

Then years later.. Turns out there was corruption going on and the president of the museum squirreled away $9 mil from the $31 mil funds that were supposed to go to the energy hall.

Real drama: https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/26309505/court-case-details-funding-sources-softball-team-paid-first-million-dollar-contract

He used the money to pay for a softball team.

[dry hill]

Dear lord :\

Let's move to #lounge

[torpid sentinel]

Why is everyone arguing over Developers 😄 lol

[dry hill]

https://tenor.com/view/shhh-quite-stop-wait-shush-gif-14462328

I don't think we want to try that again 😛

[celest dome]

Hello guys I'm looking for an artest to draw cartoonist characters for an indie game if you are interested please contact me

[ashen lynx]

Alas, at least you are not looking for a developer. That is already a relief.

[hybrid phoenix]

@celest dome Have a read through #old-rules and #more-resources. You're in the wrong place.

[mental pawn]

Hi I'm looking for someone to help teach me unreal

I will pay them just looking for a teacher

[steady pewter]

@mental pawn there are several job channels you can choose from?

[craggy bison]

I would help anyone on my facebook 📃

I started it not to long ago and have alot of streamers and gamers on my page

[hardy kettle]

any small indie teams/studios in proximity to Birmingham UK

[oblique thunder]

@hardy kettle I'm wolves mate, not a studio though, just ue4 dev working on a few projects with a friend

[hasty hare]

Coming up on my last semester of Game Programming for my AAS and was wondering if anyone had advice on what steps I should be taking now before I graduate.

[untold charm]

Hey, I'm looking for Summer Internships in Real-Time VFX, ideally for games, but I'm open to other possibilities. I've been looking around but I've only been able to find a few. Does anyone here know of any?

[hybrid phoenix]

Have a read through #old-rules and #more-resources. You're in the wrong place.

[stark cairn]

oh my, what channel should I use? (im sorry)

[hybrid phoenix]

#old-rules and #more-resources will tell you.

[cold field]

Is getting a Master's Degree that important for finding a job? Hey everyone, I'm in my final year studying games design, and my course is offering a 1 year Master's Degree. The teaching at my university is bad, but we make a game during the Master's Degree. I'm not convinced it is worth the money, so I am thinking of doing this year just for the degree. Is it worth it? Thank you

[hybrid phoenix]

Nobody will give a damn about whether you have a master's in gamedev. Spend that year actually making stuff yourself, and you'll likely have far better chances than you would with just that master's

[tidal moth]

degrees are only really relevant for visa related stuff

and even so an undergrad should be enough

[cold field]

Thanks for confirming what I thought

[night minnow]

Very few masters programs I'd consider attending. And even then, only if I wanted to get into Academia. After being a working game designer, there's no point to it IMO.

[candid cape]

Heya, so I’m a software engineering student and I want to get into more in the industry of games. How would my degree fit into game design?

I’ve had a lot of offer from outside my college they want me to be in game design(it’s a diploma), so I’m wondering how I should go about it.

I’m also wondering what kind of positions I would usually get with this degree— I know it’s not strictly game design heavy....

[tidal moth]

software engineers make good designers

so uh

I'd finish the software engineering degree

it's a good primer for design because you'll have similar considerations as with engineering, and you'll have to make structure out of nothing

but equally a software engineering degree will allow you some degree of a safety net in that you can still remain a programmer (within the sphere of games or not), regardless

for reference I have one degree in software development and I work in design

[candid cape]

Ooh that's awesome!

[errant karma]

But it says career chat

And I'm trying to get a job in the gaming industry my dude

Through the Game Gen Vocational School Prrogam.

That's funded through the Regional Centers.

[still jackal]

Hi Every one 🙂 I'm new to the sever and look foward to getting to know every body here. I'm a new coder but have done coding in the past and really looking for a job in the industry. I really want to learn on how to use UE4 and any tips would be helpful also looking for friends to game with as well. I'm a huge nerd and have a passion for star wars any nerds welcome.

[steel creek]

That's cool, but you didnt need to spam it three times 😄

[worn whale]

I know we just had the master's convo but like would doing a Master's program help my chances with at least networking/buying more time to work on my portfolio? It's been a year since I graduated with a BS in game design but since I only did 2 years of it (I switched majors half way through), I feel like like I'm pretty far behind and can't seem to find a job. I'm considering the MFA in Interactive Media at University of Southern California

Like I think one of my biggest problems is that I don't live in an industry hotspot and I have virtually no connections as a result to even get like proper feedback etc.

[tidal moth]

what do you want to work as? a designer?

[worn whale]

yes

[tidal moth]

what type of design would you want to work with

[worn whale]

I've been focusing on level design but like game design as well

[tidal moth]

I don't think a MFA will do anything for you

[worn whale]

not even with like potential networking? or like a way to get into internships?

[tidal moth]

maybe if we were talking something like gnomon

it'd probably be cheaper to just move to socal and stake out events and what not

or try and see if GDC happens and go to a couple of mixers if it does

you're not really doing it for the knowledge, so it's seems like a waste to go that way. the only type of education I would recommend would be a technical one to understand programming at a system level

even as a designer, to be clear

[worn whale]

yes even at school I learned more from youtube, experimenting, and you guys than I did from the school itself. This would just be a very expensive buffer for me to buy time so I can build up my portfolio and try and make friends in the socal area

I mean also yeah covid kinda threw everything off course considering that local events got shut down and many companies now are only considering local residents

[tidal moth]

I can't recommend it for that reason alone

if you have that kind of capital lying around anyway you might as well take a year off and focus on building a kickass portfolio

[ashen lynx]

not even with like potential networking? or like a way to get into internships? Depends on educational establishment in question. Unless it is world's top reputable one or one of such, the gain will be minimal and networking through discord would be better. @worn whale

[tidal moth]

yeah which is why I mentioned gnomon

I'm not sure they actually do design though

[ashen lynx]

formal education also helps if you are lazy.

[tidal moth]

but our company did scoop up one artist straight from there

[worn whale]

oh wait is USC not reputable?

[tidal moth]

very few schools actually have any influence on games companies

[worn whale]

I agree with your points. Problem is I already did take a year off and idk how much longer I can continue to do this so I feel like I need to do more. But maybe I just need to be more patient

hmm interesting

[tidal moth]

I think there's a few schools that are specialized outside of universities, like digipen or gnomon that have previously had success with having new recruits hired fast, but once again they are specialized schools with a generally high standard of throughput

you chances would be greater for networking there but as far as I know the programmes are pretty tough, and there's a high barrier to entry for admissions as well

but like I said you'd be better off spending time building a portfolio than much else

and communicating with studios online, sending out applications etc.

[worn whale]

Hmm okay. Yeah digipen and gnomon don't even offer Masters in game design so it really wouldn't matter either way I guess

[tidal moth]

I mean I think a master in game design is wasted. if you had to go for another degree, at least go for something useful

at least if you studied some degree under programming you'd get a valuable skill as a designer that would ultimately be able to tip the scales

[worn whale]

I think my alternative is MBA with specialization in marketing

maybe make my way into the industry through marketing (and also it would buy me time)

[tidal moth]

probably greater chances that way sure

and it doesn't pigeonhole you

but to be clear it might still be years before you land a design position from that point onwards

even if you get into the industry

[worn whale]

I'm genuinely willing to do anything related to games (except maybe programming lmao). I've tried applying to QA positions even and they still turn me down. Considering like 90% of their requirements are like "speak english" and "graduate high school", I think that they think that I'm overqualified and don't want to train me just for me to find a new job-- either that or my portfolio really is that bad

[tidal moth]

design is likely going to have some level of programming in it

so shying away from that isn't a good sign necessarily

you can try and post your portfolio over in #work-in-progress or what have you and I can take a look if you want

[worn whale]

Oh no I mean like I can definitely do programming just fine, I just prefer the other stuff haha

oooh yes please

[lilac walrus]

purely 'on-paper' design is kind of dying out, I personally wouldn't hire a game designer that doesn't also have some tangible development skills

the closest to 'on-paper' I might get these days is an economy designer, and that's something in itself

[tidal moth]

unless you live in japan, apparently 😅

[lilac walrus]

Japan's games industry has been behind the times for a while, hehe

they are slowly catching up though

[snow sorrel]

@worn whale Networking can done via the internet - nothing stops you

The world is changing a more people compete for a job in digital space, like gamedev. In Russian youtube gamedev courses are natively intagrated in literally every video. The work in IT will be devalued eventually, with extreme amounts of available workers who compete with each other and try to offer more skills than their opponents. Basically, you need to know more every year.

We have vacancies offering as low as 300 dollars per month for full time software engineer with 2+ years of experience and they have hundreds of people applying

Keep in mind that such people who are ready to work for such small price will be competing with you and taking away your jobs, because it's cheaper to hire a programmer from Russia or India

I would not recommend to invest heavily into IT jobs. Investing any money in IT is not very wise in my opinion as you don't need a formal degree/certificatin to work unlike engineers and universities teach information that can be freely acquired on web

A lot of people in Russia prefer to self-study or entroll into gamedev schools, which are pretty cheap - 100,000 rubles for 2 years (1321USD)

It's ok to invest intro more "real" degrees like medicine, engineering and law that almost always guarantee you a job at the end of your degree. But IT degree has no benefits - it's more expensive than it should be, info in it can be watched online on youtube and it won't increase your chances of be employed proportionally to how much you paid for it, as you paid a lot, but it's not the degree that matters in IT but your portfolio. Degree in IT = degree in Arts. Same trash, not worth getting.

Anyone?

Hello

[worn whale]

How does one go about doing this? Should I hit up devs on Twitter/LinkedIn and ask them for advice etc?

[daring geyser]

It's usually not the best strategy to reach out to random devs, as there are plenty of university programs that force this as a requirement (annoyingly so) for their students. This has generally muddied the perception of students asking for advice, as this can turn into 100s of randoms flooding our inboxes, and we only have so much time to respond outside of our usual work. I recommend joining a variety of online game dev communities where networking events are regularly held. That way, you can gain experience naturally interacting with other devs. You're sure to bump into someone who can introduce you to a dev in your prospective field.

[worn whale]

Ah yeah I figured as much, which is why I haven't really done it. Could you perhaps help me get started with a specific group that does things like this? I'm part of my local IGDA chapter but we're not really that big at all @daring geyser

[daring geyser]

Our local Game Dev Drinkup group has been holding online meetings since March. It's pretty much been a global meeting place for devs to hang out every month and chat. I'll DM you the discord link.

[swift hare]

Please checkout that

[snow sorrel]

Just start developing games and start communicating with other local devs. Make yourself known to a local scene.

[green oyster]

@swift hare does it block unwanted discord messages?

[snow sorrel]

@worn whale
Local groups for your country in social networks, meetups. You can randomly pick a dude as an anon and get friends, gather a company of likeminded people eventually.
Jams can also help. Gamedev courses may help, however, imo, people perceive them not differently from any other discord server but forced - I am having a gamedev course and all my education happens in another tab literally and people won't understand - why they should pick you as their networking mate instead of any other random anon, like, you are just a forced coincedence, not a person he selected himself. Universities for networking - in my view a bad place, as no one is able to be their true selves in university, I personally view it as a place where I must "shut up" and act professionally, be "corporately" friendly, it's a place where a lot of people with different views are forced to be together and maintain a certain professional code of behavior, so in my opinion no one wants to be there and have any kind of fake communications with people in there.

[worn whale]

Yeah that's a fair point. I was mostly thinking of using school as an excuse to attend student meet ups or get access to internships so I could meet actual devs etc.

[snow sorrel]

That's too expensive in my opinion for just a talking club

Unless you live in Europe and education is free

[worn whale]

Yeah sadly this would be a very expensive endeavor

[gentle stone]

Unless you go to a uni that screens people intensively there is not much of a point to networking there. In my experience most students that go to game dev related courses just suck when it comes to work ethics

[hybrid phoenix]

Yep, that's my experience. There'll be a handful of stand-outs, but for the most part it's just typical students, really

[dry hill]

In that case, glad I dropped out 😛

[lilac walrus]

not a single person I knew at university made it into the industry, lol

[hybrid phoenix]

My experience is based on the Dutch games association's networking lunches, which are heavily tied into a university that does gamedev stuff, and just.... Most of them do utterly uninteresting stuff and don't really seem to want to be there or have any idea what they're doing, aside from one or two people that're actually doing cool stuff and are excited to have a conversation and all that

[dry hill]

Oof :\

To be fair, the school I went to (former NHTV) did seem to be well put together

I think some of their allumni went to rather prominent studios

[flat gazelle]

I work with at least one of them

I also work with two people from my school

Used to work with a lot more of them at previous studios

[dry hill]

"them"

Being your former classmates?

[flat gazelle]

Nhtv people

[dry hill]

OH!

Oh lord what a small world

[flat gazelle]

Or breda something ir other

[dry hill]

Yeah

NHTV Breda

That was the old name

It's something else now

"Breda University of Applied Sciences"

It's not a real University, because it has no academic programme and should be named "College".

😆

Wiki

lol

[flat gazelle]

Yeah, I reviewed their houdini curriculum recently

[dry hill]

Any good?

[flat gazelle]

Very

[dry hill]

Yeah, they did seem very thorough. Also employed industry people as their teachers

[flat gazelle]

I gave them one if my highest scores

[hybrid phoenix]

I considered going there but was highly sceptical

[honest cipher]

damn if they get a thumbs up from you they have to be good

the CG schools nearby in Madrid ive found them to be absolutely terrible

i had some interns who were in year 3d of a CG/animation/vfx course and they didnt know what UVs were

[dry hill]

For what reasons?

[hybrid phoenix]

Because most places teaching gamedev are hot garbage and I had no concrete evidence to the contrary for Breda

[honest cipher]

on the 2 big Madrid gamedev schools ive found them improve massively over the years

atm the projects done by end-of-degree students are quite nice

tho they group like 15 students on 1 project which is absurd

specially because there are only like 20-30 official gamedev companies with more than 10 employees in like the whole spain

[flat gazelle]

No idea about their curriculum outside houdini. Thats all I was asked to review.

[dry hill]

Are you working here in the country?

[flat gazelle]

Nope, sweden

I reviewed all schools that applied to be houdini certified for games od whatever its called

[dry hill]

Oh you're part of a certification body?

[flat gazelle]

For some reason sidefx labeled me an expert, and they asked everyone on that list if we coukd help. Just to make sure the curriculums make sense from an industry point of view.

[dry hill]

https://youtu.be/zMrvCWy85xM?t=3208

A friend sent me this yesterday

Mind blown (a few moments after the timestamp, the chairs & the debris)

I couldn't dedicate time to learn houdini during this part of my development cycle, but it's high on my wishlist

Would love to use more proceduralism

[lilac walrus]

I have hired three NHTV people in the past

[dry hill]

How did that work out?

[lilac walrus]

fairly well, I believe all are still working in the industry

[flat gazelle]

All dead

[lilac walrus]

haha

[flat gazelle]

XD

[lilac walrus]

gas leak

the other places I've hired from that do games orientated sources are Howest Kortrijk, and University of Hertfordshire

never hired anyone from Falmouth or Dundee, but those names also stand out to me

[pale raven]

got an interview with a company wednesday, sounds like a technical one. anyone got any tips?

[vital sleet]

Are you able to provide details of the job description?

[pale raven]

Sorry yeah

Finance software company

Lemme cap description

@vital sleet

[vital sleet]

I only have experience in being one of the interviewers for technical design positions in the games industry, but the most general advice I can give is:

• Ask questions; asking good questions shows the interviewer that you know what you are doing. Questions regarding expectations, dead-lines, software that is used, etc.
• Don't pretend to know something that you don't; it is obvious when someone doesn't know that they are talking about, and (in my opinion) is better to be honest about it. (I have also tried to know some things as the person being interviewed and it failed miserably :D)
• This is also a personal thing that I look for, but I try to see if the person I am speaking to is someone that I would enjoy working with; so try to be as friendly and personable as possible.

Depending on how the interview goes, being able to maintain the conversation and elaborate on ideas can make a huge difference

[snow sorrel]

" personable as possible."
Is that an introvert discrimination?

Is this legal?

Do you deny employment to people based on their type of brains?

[vital sleet]

Its a personal preference and I am only one voice in a group of interviewers; but I would prefer someone that I can work with rather than someone who is more hostile

[flat gazelle]

Being unpleasant to work with is not a protected condition. If you aren't able to work well in a team, you wont work in a team in this industry. Simple as that. Always follow Wheatons law.

[snow sorrel]

"Its a personal preference "
It can be said about many things. Race, condition, sex, nationality, religion.

[vital sleet]

I think you are taking this comment to the extreme; if a person I am interviewing comes off as hostile, or someone who does not seem to work well with others, then I am less likely to want them on the team

[snow sorrel]

"Being unpleasant to work with is not a protected condition."
By "Unpleasant" it could be religion, race or any other thing you don't like.

[snow sorrel]

"I think you are taking this comment to the extreme; "
No, I think you are taking it to extreme by refusing employment to people with different type of brains

[flat gazelle]

None of which was discussed above. Stop trying to twist the discussion and put yourself in the victim seat. If you act hostile in an interview like Devin mentioned, or in fact the way you do on this discord, you won't get hired. There is no discrimination going on. Behing hostile, mean or agressive towards others do not grant you special privileges.

[snow sorrel]

There is no different between refusign emploment based on race or brain type

Introversion doesn't mean being aggressive

Learn what it means

[flat gazelle]

Then why are there interviews at all if there are no valid reasons to not hire?

Then you should just sign up and start working.

[snow sorrel]

He said "personable people" which means extraverted, "outgoing".

[flat gazelle]

No, that's how you interpret it.

[snow sorrel]

Non-outgoing people should die from starvatin?

[vital sleet]

there are plenty of introverted people who are kind and personable

[flat gazelle]

Yep

[vital sleet]

(of a person) having a pleasant appearance and manner.

key word, manner

[snow sorrel]

Are you a lookist?

[flat gazelle]

<@&213101288538374145> This is taking a very trolly turn.

Again

[snow sorrel]

<@&213101288538374145> there is discrimination of people with social anxiety disorder

[flat gazelle]

Living with a person with diagnosed SAD. She is very personable.

[gentle pewter]

@snow sorrel that's nonsense. I would suggest stepping away from this discussion for an hour instead of doubling down.

[snow sorrel]

With people they live and know

We are afraid of strangers

You know nothing about condition of a person you live with

[dry hill]

You're crossing a line here.

Not only are you speaking on behalf of people you seem unable to speak for from a reasonable perspective, you're now also comitting an ad hominem

[snow sorrel]

"that's nonsense"
that's not up to you to decide

[dry hill]

😆

[snow sorrel]

I am speaking on behalf of myself

As a person with SAD

And an introvert

[snow sorrel]

You think social anxiery disorder is funny?

[gentle pewter]

I get that you seem to have very strong feelings about this topic, but please calm down and discuss it in a less hostile manner here.

[dry hill]

No, but you telling a moderator it's not up to them to decide is breathtaking

And very funny indeed.

[snow sorrel]

No disrespect, but Moderator doesn''t mean a person who is qualifed to judge on what is discrimination and what is not. moderator is just a person with their own opinon and their moderator right doesn't grant them expertise.

[gentle pewter]

Fair. But consider this a warning to mind your tone and attitude here.

[hybrid phoenix]

It's interesting because this conversation's just screams the opposite of SAD to me; wilfully looking for conflict

[polar crystal]

Most programmers tend to be introverts..

bit of a generalization, but still in my experience teaching plenty of them, seems to be mostly true

and yeah, given employing someone who is a pain in the arse can destroy a team AND a company, I'd avoid them like the plague..

I've had to work with people who were difficult and honestly it does a lot of damage to morale for everyone else.

[digital gate]

introversion doesn't mean aggression

there is discrimination of people with social anxiety disorder

Not to stir up trouble but you can be socially anxious, introverted, or "have a different type of brain"¶, and still give a superb interview. I should know, I did it.

If you come hostile, if you sound incompetent, or if you find the need to pick apart things to try to correct aggressively - you will be passed over.

You can be socially anxious and appear competent.

¶ Footnote: I'm going to assume you specifically mean a person on the Autism spectrum? I'm adding this here because I am including others with non-anxiety mental illness.

NB: When people giving you advice need a marked footnote, your attitude will not serve you well in an interview or a work environment.

[placid bridge]

@snow sorrel Not to stir the pot and make things worse but to be honest, in the end the rules regarding anti-discrimination are either way pretty ridiculous. It's almost impossible to monitor individual interviews and there is not one way to make sure people will hire you regardless of personality traits or individual factors. People might treat you worse because you have SAD and that sucks but guess what. That is the world. Some people might not hire me because how I look. Tough shit that's the world. I have a friend who only employs fellow black people. Tough shit for other ethnicities but guess what. That's the world. You can't imagine the world to serve your every needs. Lastly every one of us have our own hardships too, so it's not like you are alone in having struggles. The world is a struggle and you just gotta keep hustling. Keep strong and you'll find the right company, those others were probably not a good place to work at either way.

[calm mica]

u have a friend that only employs black people? lol if that was the way around the streets would be full of protests to shut the company down

[jagged leaf]

So going to throw a bit f a curve into the boring, but how comparable is a standard app architect skillset transferable to developing games? Software related I'd assume is the same, but I'd reckon that there's much more to game dev then just the code

[tidal moth]

probably quite a bit of overlap I can imagine

[craggy nacelle]

It's mostly the same imo

The main difference in games is that you tend to have multiple systems interacting with each other in "real time"

Majority of consumer or business applications are very single task focused

Eg. you fill a form, push a button which sends the form, the form is then processed, a query is sent to a database, then a response is generated

so there's just one thing going on at a time in this sense, which either succeeds or fails

but with games, there can be many different systems interacting with each other in some ways, like maybe your AI is controlling an enemy character, but the player shoots at the character, and it needs to react to this external event, which might trigger some other things to happen

or your AI decides to do some action but at the same time something else happens which also affects the AI in some fashion

so there can be many things affecting the logic involved, unlike in the other example where there's always just one thing happening at a time

this requires you to architect things a little bit differently in that your systems are more events based and they send their own events so that other things can react, etc.

[snow sorrel]

"People might treat you worse because you have SAD and that sucks but guess what. That is the world. "

Now replace SAD with race or sex and see how it will be perceived differently. It's considered ok to discriminate the true minority because we are weak and can't do anything. But when it comes to big social groups which are a strong buying power - everyone pretends to be tolerant.

upd:
I didn't read it fully. Thanks for kind words.

[snow sorrel]

"Not to stir up trouble but you can be socially anxious, introverted, or "have a different type of brain"¶, and still give a superb interview. I should know, I did it"

If a person expects you to be outgoing- in my opinion SAD is not what they expect.
It's hard to meet the standards with SAD if your voice would be shaking, you don't like gatherings, your stress level in public is extreme, and you will act as what is considered "awkward".
Sorry but I am not sure you know what SAD feels like - I have to drink alcohol when going out, because my level of stress can be comparable to how usual people feel when they are in a fight. I always feel danger coming from other people. When we fear, our cognitive abilities become worse so you may even forget what your name is.
interview is stressfull by itself for everyone but for people with SAD it's many imes stronger. You vocal cords may refuse to work, you can forget everything you know under such stress. My vocal cords refuse to work in a shop talking to cashier, and you saying "interview". Have you been diagnozed with social anxiety?

[snow sorrel]

Are you a qualified psychologist? Or maybe you have SAD? No? Then please, shut up.

[gentle pewter]

Please mind your tone. You've been warned before.

But on topic: if your SAD is this severe, then what exactly moves you to want to work in an environment where you have to be social 90% of the time? Studio game development work is team work and consists in large parts of just communication with others on your team and beyond - often in uncomfortable situations where someone might have fucked up, or attitudes clash, or hierarchical or informal power imbalances are at play. Is that really something a person with severe SAD would want to experience every day?

[snow sorrel]

Are you really saying that I should not work where I want because I have SAD?

[gentle pewter]

No, I'm asking what you want.

What would your ideal work environment look like?

[snow sorrel]

I prefer working from home

Working with a team online is not a problem

I don't think the world is going back to offices

For people with SAD corona has many positive sides

[gentle pewter]

I don't think offices are going away, but we're definitely seeing more openness to remote work already, so that's good

So your issues then are with the interview process?

[snow sorrel]

As another person said here - they prefer to give jobs to personable people

[digital gate]

Did I fucking say I was diagnosed with SAD?

I'll take my ding if mods see fit.

[snow sorrel]

"Not to stir up trouble but you can be socially anxious, introverted, or "have a different type of brain"¶, and still give a superb interview. I should know, I did it. "

[digital gate]

Don't forget the bit at the bottom

Go read it. Stop typing

Think, then type

[snow sorrel]

Woah woah

easy

[gentle pewter]

@digital gate you as well, cool your head and tone please

[snow sorrel]

You seem to be very aggressive

[gentle pewter]

It's possible to have this conversation in a civil manner

I'd like to see everyone here try that

[snow sorrel]

A person with autism vs a person with sad: battle of the year

when two mental illnessess clash

[digital gate]

I'll disengage, but know this. I refuse to engage in any sort of measuring contest.

It's fruitless, the wrong venue, and you seem to be here in bad faith.

[snow sorrel]

Well you started devaluing the struggle I go to

[digital gate]

Also nice inaccurate diagnosis, professor

Yeah, and this deflective snark isn't you doing just that?

[snow sorrel]

You didn't write it yourself

[digital gate]

You don't know what I have, or don't have.

Anyway, I said I'm disengaging. So best of luck

[snow sorrel]

If you are not saying what you have but saying how easy it should to give interview for people like me well tha'ts wrong

You may be having nothing and just trolling

If you don't delcare what you have so it can judged if you have expertise and give advices saying easy something is - this is just trolling

[gentle pewter]

Just let it go.

[snow sorrel]

Like "haha you have depression why won't you just stop being depressed I did it" and then you say you don't have depression

[digital gate]

🙄 "I gave a good interview" === "I'm over depression, get schooled F'n NERD"

I'm sorry, what world are you from?

Do you think it was easy? You think I just answered a phone one day and was good at interviews?

I was trying to say "mental illness doesn't have to mean you are excluded from this field"

But no, suddenly I'm hostile and must post my entire "deal" here or I'm a fraud?

If there really is a barrier to communication here, and this is how you seek to handle it, what of when you waste hours of your time on a smaller miscommunication - that you didn't chase down because it would be bothering someone (in your mind)??

[ashen lynx]

@snow sorrel how about working out your issues rather than trying to make others accept them?

[snow sorrel]

= How about stop being transexual rather than trying to make others accept them

LMAO at how society is double faced

No one cares about "minority" or "justice" - until the minority is rich enough to make people be tolerant to them as they will be losing money otherwise

Artemy Lebedev was right

[green oyster]

Being trans is not classified as a mental disorder

[snow sorrel]

It is actually.

[green oyster]

Transsexualism no longer is classified as a mental disorder in the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD)

[snow sorrel]

It is type of dysphoria. In order to get a clearance to undergo a surgery you need to be diagnozed first in Poland and Russia

And the rest of the eastern world

West may view it differently

[wary idol]

being a keyboard warrior should be classified as a mental disorder

[ashen lynx]

@snow sorrel while it or cannot be classsifed as a disease, it is a deviation. The only justified way of caring about minorities is such that should you end up being in such minority, you will not feel unreasonably bad, weighted by probability. Of course, you can rework whole world to to make greenhouse condititons for SADy peeps, but how about battling the cause of SAD instead?

[snow sorrel]

LMAO at how society is double faced x 2
No one cares about "minority" or "justice" - until the minority is rich enough to make people be tolerant to them as they will be losing money otherwise x 2
Artemy Lebedev was right x 2

How about battling the cause of dysphoria instead? It's a mental condition and can be cured.

[snow sorrel]

You are bullying me for protecting rights of people with anxiety. Society is such a clown.

[dry hill]

Good thing that in contrast, you're such a shining paragon of reason 👍

[snow sorrel]

Pointless sarcasm with nothing behind it. Have facts - show.

[honest cipher]

this chat isnt the one for that, go to lounge

[dry hill]

Better yet, let's have this discussion die entirely. Should have ended yesterday already.

[placid bridge]

He is nigerian living in america. His reasoning is that he wants to give job to africans. He doesn't take in african americans tho because he considers them lazy/privileged (yes a bit ironic considering he lives in america). And yes you are right, people would freak out if it is the other way around. Then again he is kind of immune to backlash and also immune to social stigma because he is not from a western country so all the social justice things to him is kind of foogazi, social constructs to try to amend a inherently human psyche thing. He faces some stigma however since when in first time meetings people often look worse at him because of his Nigerian accent and the association it has with lower level education if I understood correctly. He really doesn't give a shit tho, it just gives him energy to keep working. The point I am making this happens on every level regardless sex, ethinicity, SAD and more. We can't truly control every facet of a persons/companies preferences and I am very thankful for that, because if we were forced to do everything in a certain way there would be no entrepreneurial spirit and we would live under a dictatorship.

[placid bridge]

I guess I get your point in a way. There is in a way an unfair classification of who deserves "rights" or "protection". This applies only to recognized identities but not other inherent factors of a person or unrecognized identities. You can correct me if I am wrong.'