a couple of large studios, but mostly smaller outfits
#career-chat
lilac walrus
kindred mason
In anycase, I'm not surprised Austin is up that high in the USA
Austin blew the heck up overnight practically
little ore
Hello guys 🙂 I'm a college student I just want to know what to focus in unreal engine to become an environment artist in the future. What I mean is that do I need to learn blueprints? and other parts of the engine. or its just okay if I would focus on materials, modeling etc.
lilac nova
Hey guys, I am a 3D artist by trade and have some experience as an environment/ technical artist. After my last job, I had taken on the role of FQA ( quality control) tester, back in October of last year as I had to pay my bills. While I am enjoy the work and testing all AAA games, I am afraid I won't be able to get back to development side of things as this experience is not really adding to my resume as an artist. Can someone please guide me, how to get back on the dev sides and if possible, how can I show my current job as a relevant experience on my resume?
Thabk you so much everyone :)
lilac walrus
keep making art in your spare time, improve, talk about that in your application
talk about your QA experience as being about learning to operate in a studio environment
gentle chasm
or use QA time to improve Technical Art skillset: things like profiling, tooling, automation, memory management...
errant latch
Heyo! I’m a college freshmen majoring in animation with a concentration in illustration. I’m making a passion project with a bunch of other people of about my experience level, and I intend to pay them once we have a workable demo off the ground and ready to present to Humble. Currently I’m having some technical issues with my internet, so my production pipeline has slowed while I try to fix that. In any case, I just had a couple of questions regarding what I might want to do to address some of the difficulties we’re facing.
smoky axle
Hello, I would like some advice because I wanna start learn Unreal Engine coding and develop games for it, my only experience related to code is SQF from Arma 3, I would like to know what is the area with most demand so I can find a job or a quick work and start my experience with UE, so were should I invest my time and start learn about?
nova tartan
Software developers with degrees in computer science are generally well paid and in large demand
carmine siren
@plush plaza This belongs in #looking-for-work
plush plaza
Oh thanks
carmine siren
np
chrome citrus
Hi! I'm currently learning Unreal Engine and C++ ( Self taught/Free courses on the internet ) i'm 29 y/o , and i would like to know which subjects i could learn to complement this studies that makes not only get me hired soon on that subject ( for example if i learn a high demanded language like python or javascript) but also makes me have more possibilites to get hired on a work related with Unreal Engine/C++ in the future. The thing is i want (need) to work on a related thing to what i'm studying while i'm studying, so i can start working soon as i keep learning. Thank you in advance 🙂
lilac walrus
games programming is a practical vocation; the best way to learn is by doing, and by doing you'll encounter problems you need to solve - and that's where you start studying
gentle chasm
@chrome citrus
the basic requirements for programmer in gamedev
- Be able to handle your tasks, so know how to solve problems (language syntax is secondary thing, really - after all you learn it to solve problems right way)
- Write code that's not a trash - it's not enough just to "deliver feature and complete task", most likely your code will be adapted/refined/refactored many times during development
As with any other specializations
- Be able to present your skills. Don't focus on creating small game, if only programming is your goal. You could study specify topic like AI/animation and create small plugin or game feature around that. Quality over quantity.
- Good studios will try test your soft skills: communication, teamwork, how you react on feedback.
keen robin
Create a portfolio of work, treat it as your C.V. Sell yourself and your skillset, but be realistic too ie. don't oversell yourself.
chrome citrus
thanks a lot @gentle chasm ( that was an amazing answer :DDD ) , @lilac walrus , and @keen robin !
mystic hull
#looking-for-talent @normal mulch
Might help to add some details about who you are and what you did, in tangible links 🤔
plucky hatch
Is Game Dev in the corporate setting really as bad as people make it out to be?
flat gazelle
No
trail leaf
@plucky hatch I'd almost say all corporates are equally as bad.
mystic hull
I'd say it's a very subjective matter. It exists, which means people (lots of people) do work in corporate - that says that a lot of people either accept or like working there. It's gonna highly depend on who you ask
plucky hatch
I hear that game dev is usually lower paid than general software dev
lilac walrus
it is considerably lower paid
little ore
Hey guys I'm a college student, and I've been practicing environment art recently. and I would like to ask if is it essential to learn also a software like substance designer, to become a environment designer?
Or I should focus on unreal engine, 3Dmodeling and just texture them using some free textures
willow turtle
^same question
lilac walrus
you're unlikely to get anywhere if you can't texture your own stuff, so learning how to do that is essential
doesn't have to be Substance, but that is a very common standard tool to use
hybrid phoenix
Environment Art is almost entirely modelling and texturing. You will generally need to be proficient in Zbrush, Substance Painter, Photoshop and some DCC. In-engine is largely a footnote for environmental artists
Large-scale blackouts and general level design is handled by Level Designers, with whom you'll likely work together to put together the final in-engine result, but it definitely shouldn't be your focus because you likely won't ever have to handle the heavy lifting in-engine - there's other people for that
sly dock
hello guys i need help with blender
fickle hatch
@sly dock https://www.indeed.com/q-Blender-3d-jobs.html here you go
fickle hatch
I can only help you get a blender job, this is the wrong chat for that question
sly dock
where to ask then
tawny kayak
@sly dock Blender has a Discord server. discord.gg/blender
sly dock
There is no chat
trail leaf
@plucky hatch Ups and downs. I mean, painting artistic art pieces pay less than painting buildings. But it comes down to what do you actually want to do. But artistic pieces can be bought for millions, where as the other is more consistent.
rose robin
I don't know if this is the fight place, but I'm really at lost. I'm preparing a demo to pitch for a publisher, however, I'm getting short on money and by the time I start emailing publisher, I won't be having a team anymore ... fo you think this will lessen my chances of securing a deal? Knowing that I can just employee them again and I have a candidate list of people who would like to work with me.
fickle hatch
I don't think your question has a real answer, but if you're pitching to a publisher, you should have some sort of information about your team ready - doesn't matter if they are actively working for you or no, you should have CV's of all your potential employees, descriptions of their work (well, descriptions of working positions required for your project), etc. I feel "they aren't currently working for me" is more of a later question, a technical thing to solve along the way
Don't sound negative about it, if you have to, make it seem like it's a non-issue and be confident that it's a non-issue?
rose robin
Ok great. I know it's not an issue, but it's my first time pitching to a publisher so I just wanted to ask someone with more experience about the matter. Thanks for your time bro
trail leaf
In those situations if they know your financial situation they will take advantage of that.
When you are in a weak financial position like that, you have zero leverage.
hybrid phoenix
That depends on the publisher, a good publisher won't. Not massively, anyway
Loads of them will, but personally, I'd recommend not working with a business partner who you think is trying to take unreasonable advantage of you
trail leaf
Lots of them do it, it's hard to find one that won't.
pastel estuary
@dim patrol could you please follow the guidelines set in #old-rules and only post job-content in #looking-for-talent ( how to use is explained in #more-resources ) or the pinned message in the talent channel.
lilac nova
Thank you @lilac walrus and @gentle chasm.i really appreciate your guys help :)
pastel estuary
forgot to note whoever posted the now-deleted message, so no infraction.
but once again:
please follow the guidelines set in #old-rules and only post job-content in #looking-for-talent ( how to use is explained in #more-resources ) or the pinned message in the talent channel.
<_<
lilac walrus
willow turtle
I'm a current game studies student with a prior masters and bachelors in an unrelated field. When hiring managers are looking at resumes, portfolios, interviews, etc., does it matter which *type *of game studies degree you have or *where *it comes form?
I am asking because I have just applied to the Guildhall Master of Interactive Technology degree at Southern Methodist University (https://catalog.smu.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=41&poid=9480), but I am currently a student at Richland College in their Associate of Applied Science in Interactive Simulation and Game Technology program (https://www1.dcccd.edu/catalog/programs/degree.cfm?degree=int_sim_game_tech_aas&loc=DCCCD). Both are two years.
SMU's sticker price is $80,000k. Both are two year programs. By nature, graduate courses cost more than technical college courses; SMU's cost is definitely high though. It seems like a great program, and I may get in, but I am wanting to know if having SMU on my transcript, and a master degree in games, will help me more in the field than an Associates degree. I am interested in being a level designer primarily.
Later, I had planned to do a PhD in research involving psychology and game studies, which should be partially funded, but I am concerned that the sticker price at SMU combined with my prior masters degree will use the remainder of my student loan availability at the graduate level before I get to my PhD. I would also have to leave my job for SMU so there is that.
Anyways, SMU seems great but has serious sacrifices. I am willing to do it if it will help my job prospects later moreso than a 2 year technical degree. What say you Unreal server?
steel creek
Not sure I follow. If you already have a Masters then you must realize that degrees are nothing in terms of proof of experience. You want to take yet more school?
fickle hatch
@willow turtle if you press shift+enter, it lets you break up large swaths of text into paragraphs
willow turtle
@fickle hatch fixed.
fickle hatch
Perfect!
This genuinely changes the perception of your text a lot. It doesn't matter which type of degree you have, your apparent work fitness is much more relevant
willow turtle
@steel creek My prior career required a masters degree in the subject area to pursue employment. In the games industry, does the degree itself not matter? -- you just need to prove your skills? -- and experience? The way to do that through a portfolio then?
steel creek
depends. You are not going to walk into a Sr. Engineering position with no degree and no experience, regardless 😄
willow turtle
I've done lots of online research about it all but am very knew the game development world
fickle hatch
In game development industry, the degree often only helps you in a limited way (by giving a proof of diligence when you don't have a portfolio) or when you're immigrating between countries (I've experienced a real bias from immigration for having a masters degree)
If you can provide proof of diligence in form of a portfolio/by showing your experience, that has a much higher value and very quickly becomes a stronger proof than the degree
plucky hatch
Is it likely / does it often occur that people get into well paying game industry developer jobs with just a portfolio ?
flat gazelle
Yes
lilac walrus
I have no qualifications whatsoever and I have a well paid industry job
my highest level qualifications are high school diplomas in totally unrelated subjects
wary idol
^^
hybrid phoenix
Yup, I'm in the same boat as Vanilla
mystic hull
Same boat as Vanilla and Goosey, not triple A though
honest cipher
similar case, but i kinda had "work experience" from freelancing contracts over years
gentle chasm
Game Director of The Witcher 3 is just a paramedic on paper ;)
Started from QA at the first Witcher ;)
One of the best animator I know (which was a lead animator in the same company) was a carpenter previously ;)
To make it weirder, one of quest designer at The Witcher was archeologist on paper, but he decided he likes games more 😅
Learned C++ later and moved to write tools 😋
shut tree
archeologist and quest designer makes sense tho
its uncovering the story behind artifacts
gentle chasm
actually digging through 6 feet of dirt to discover which ancient piece of code causes bug in quest 😛
plucky hatch
So you should buff your portfolio and learn skills , don't necessarily need a 4 year comp sci degree
@lilac walrus How extensive were your portfolio projects? Like how many should I make before I should apply?
lilac walrus
I don't have a portfolio, because I've been around for longer than they've been necessary; but I do look at applications every so often when we hire. You don't need a large number of projects, you just need enough to demonstrate the kind of things you're capable of
quality is way better than quantity
nova tartan
If you are going to be a software developer you almost do need a 4 year degree at this point
Hard to avoid having your resume tossed before an interview without one
This is just for software developer role though
lilac walrus
I'd rather see one or two really good examples of work, than ten weaker ones
to be a games programmer, you won't need a 4 year degree
the formal education will almost certainly not hurt, but also be prepared to throw a lot of the formal methodologies you've been taught out of the window, because they frequently don't apply 😄
if I were applying as a game programmer though, I'd have a couple of decent examples of game-like demos; pathfinding algos, software renderers, hyper-focused tools or whatever
try to pick something that interests you, because that's the kind of work you probably want to be getting
plucky hatch
Thank you for the information
uneven crypt
Hey everyone, I am trying to get the Chaos content examples map to work on a source build of 4.23 but if i try to open it makes me recompile the map which always fails... anyone has an idea how to get it running? Also I didn't know which channel this belongs into... so sorry for posting here
lilac walrus
uneven crypt
oops thats actually where i wanted to post it...
steel merlin
Going back to @willow turtle 's question from the other day. While I completely agree that broadly degrees don't matter, what matters is what you can show in your portfolio, there are a few very valuable aspects of a game degree program like at Full Sail, Digipen or The Guildhall:
-
Dedicated time to build a real portfolio or real projects
The better programs will have you work in semi-real conditions on decently sized teams to come together and build a complete game (or two or three depending on the program). I know SMU does this especially well. Sure you can spend the 2 years teaching yourself the hard skills necessary on your own, but you're not going to get the team experience, and you're probably not going to have a complete thing to show at the end of it. -
Networking through the School
SMU's faculty, staff and advisors are very well connected through the industry. While they definitely bias a bit towards Dallas studios, they know people everywhere and SMU has a very high placement rate as a result. This might be the most important metric to look at when evaluating programs like this. And you want a real measurement... people who get placed in actual paying game dev roles. Some schools will count literally any job a graduate gets as a placement to give a misleading statistic. -
Networking in your Cohort
If you go to a program with a solid reputation and good placement, then your classmates are all going to find themselves sooner or later in jobs all over the industry. This is the real start of your professional network. And I'm sure everyone here will agree that the best way to land work is through people you know who can vouch for you. I've been in the industry 14 years now and every job I've had has been through someone I know/worked with prior.
It's still a ton of debt to commit to. And whether those numbers make sense is something only you can figure out.
sick basin
I would like to dive right in the #looking-for-talent category but I am terrified
steel creek
Of what? Ask what they need, tell them what you can do, if the two dont meet, no harm no foul. Dont overpromise what you cant do, and get paid for the fair amount of work you do. Perfect world when it works.
sick basin
What if they dont Pay
lilac walrus
don't work for them again
it's not uncommon to take pay on completion of milestones, so if they don't pay for milestone 1, don't work on milestone 2
sick basin
But I wasted my time anyway
lilac walrus
that's just reality, and you have to accept it
thorn pecan
you don't wasted time, you purchased experience for your time
nova tartan
Arrange for partial upfront payment is an option, though probably not for your very first job, as giving someone completely unknown money before work will be seen as a large risk.
plucky hatch
Hey,
I dont have money
So all my staff
is just taking royalties
I get 12.5% and then split it with my co-founder
How much would I get and is it a good deal
mystic hull
How much would I get and is it a good deal
@plucky hatch Well how much profit did you make?
plucky hatch
we dont know yet
its a big game
and were planning selling for £30
so far we only have 1 or our staff we need
mystic hull
Rev-share is generally non-successful in most cases, people need money to eat
Whether it's a good deal or not is completely up to you to decide, sadly, we can't help much with that
And finally, nobody can help you calculate your profits unless you have tangible results or sales projections
For a game that's not yet made, it'll be hard to tell 😅
plucky hatch
ok
Well
We are offering Rev Share or 100 USD payments
and we aim to sell alot of the game
marsh stream
Most of us do 😅
flat gazelle
If you do not have a business plan and sales projections for the game, you should probably not be staffing up with the intent of paying them.
steel merlin
You need to know your sales projections and your net revenue (gross sales minus platform cut, taxes, transaction fees etc). That's your starting point for everything. If you don't know the size of the money pool, telling someone they get 12.5% vs someone else getting 72% is meaningless.
And do this based off of very conservative estimates of sales. Most games on Steam for example sell under 1,000 copies. If people are willing to work on a project only on promised future money, they need to be OK doing that on a very low payout possibility, otherwise you're asking for serious problems.
sinful island
I need help picking a drawing tablet. Any recommendations?
I think one with a screen is probably best and Ideally it'd be cool to be able to take it on a hike and draw standalone. I can get over not doing that though if theres a clear professional advantage to other features
nova tartan
What's your budget?
My sister uses ipad(an expensive one to run good graphics software) + apple pen and she loves it (she's a professional graphic designer)
I've heard great things about the expensive cintiq stuff too, if your budget is that high(3k+)
Being able to draw directly on the screen is nice. I have a cheap little tablet that isn't a screen but it's not quite all there, the cursor lags behind and it can be frustrating to get it exactly where I want, but I'm not an artist this is just for fun
sinful island
no budget, but being practical theres no reason to go that high honestly
I was thinking like cintiq 16 or pro if it's any better. I heard going bigger on the screen has worse pixel density unless you go high end on waccom
I've also been looking at xp pen and some other stuff. Havivng something like an ipad would be awesome, but I've very limited by using an ipad
even a surface would probably be not optimal. Something designed to be a drawing device more than anything else
hybrid phoenix
I honestly prefer an iPad with pencil over the wacom display tablets I've used. The actual drawing feels a lot more natural to me
That said, iPad don't work as display tablets unless you're on a mac, and if you're doing gamedev you're probably not on a mac 😛
plucky hatch
Ipad and an apple pencil is honestly the best
sinful island
@plucky hatch for what usage though? Can I use it with substance, blender, krita, actual work for game dev?
plucky hatch
you said you wanted a tablet
You can use it for anything really
just with an app and a program
and then it becomes a tablet
sinful island
I've looked at the ipad and I've been told theres a lot of lag when using it linked to a win pc for drawing and also it doesn't detect pressure sensitivity so that all sounds like a no go
urban stump
iPad has sensitivity if you use it standalone or plugged into a Mac. The problem with Windows is that Windows natively has no idea what to do with it so you're at the mercy of whatever external software you try to use for it.
But that being said, I love my iPad as a drawing tablet and use it as a digital sketchbook. I use it whenever I'm not at home to use my massive 24 inch Cintiq.
sinful island
that sounds nice for the portable factor. An equivalent android would be awesome, but I know the drivers for those things don't play nice
I'm looking at a cintiq 16 currently, but IDK if going for the pro is worth it just to get the resolution jump
urban stump
Even if you can get a smaller drawing tablet without a screen, I would recommend against it. The UI for programs like Photoshop or ZBrush would take up way too much screen space and give you a super tiny work area that you won't enjoy drawing on. For small sizes, I would say to not use a tablet with a screen in the first place and probably lean more towards a normal Intuos-style one.
Unless the program is specifically designed for a smaller screen, like ProCreate on the iPad is, it's not worth it imo.
sinful island
right, but I can just scale the UI can't i
urban stump
Windows will let you scale the UI up but not down. And even then it's difficult because you may suddenly get things like "Oh, this text now has a font that's not even 1 pixel thick and you can't read it"
You can do 100% or higher scaling in Windows. You cannot do 99% or lower. It's a one way process.
So whatever the resolution of the program is, that's what you're stuck with
sinful island
damn thats a good point, well geez I can't really see wheere the doubling in cost comes from. I can afford it, but I'm not a fan of how they're taking advantage of their market position hmm
urban stump
So sure, you can get a small drawing tablet with a screen... but not a single program you'll be running on it was designed with a screen that size in mind. I can't see it being a good experience (at least for native windows programs).
Things like Procreate only work so well because their entire UI was built around "how do we make this work well with a tablet this size", something that Photoshop's native Windows version or other software like ZBrush just isn't even considering.
And it extends beyond that. Like think about how impossible it would be to navigate ZBrush's UI without keyboard shortcuts! You don't have a keyboard when you're running a standalone tablet, right? So how could that possibly work in any sense portably unless you also bring around an external keyboard of some kind?
For a good portable drawing experience, I would say the software is going to be more important than the hardware, by far.
sinful island
the standalone tablets are usually able to be run as a pen display when plugged into a pc so it's the same as having two in one.
It'd be exceptionally cool if I could use a screen tablet like an intuos when needed
urban stump
You can if you configure the drivers that way. You don't need to draw on the surface your pen is on. Just make sure you think whatever you decide to go with all the way through, that's all I'm really saying. Plan this out, both the hardware and what you'll use for the software.
sinful island
I think that I'll be using blender, krita, substance, mixer, etc. I'm a tech artist, but I do everything for my indie projects so something that fits the best all around
urban stump
Right, so from that we know 1 thing: Whatever you pick, it will be worthless to you without a keyboard. So make sure it has one. Probably also going to be near useless without being plugged into a PC so being able to use it away from the desk won't have much application.
sinful island
pretty much, would just be a nice feature as I hike and try to improve how natural my art comes off by observing nature
but like if I can't do that whatever I'll get a surface later or somthing
for now, I need my first drawing tablet
urban stump
Yeah, like you said, for those rare occasions, I would say a dedicated device is probably better since it has almost zero overlap with what your primary use is
Wait it's your first drawing tablet? Yeah don't get one with a screen.
- unless you have years of traditional art background
sinful island
honestly I don't draw very much, this is my deeper dive into art creation
urban stump
And that's exactly why that's the general recommendation everyone makes for their first tablet. You do not want to overspend and draw out of financial obligation, that just discourages you.
sinful island
I have used an intuos before, I didn't really like it.
urban stump
Buy a decent but cheap tablet to start out, and you'll know when you outgrow it artistically if you want to go with a higher quality one without a screen or go with one that has a screen. Screens are not objectively better, it's a personal preference thing. Even professionals that have been doing this for their entire lives often just prefer a normal tablet without one.
And there is no guarantee you will like one with a screen any more and then you have a very expensive paperweight. Screens are not better, they're just different.
sinful island
I have a surface pro original, liked that better than the disconnect of not looking at a the drawing medium
even with the shittier screen and pen
urban stump
A cheaper option than something with a screen? Buy a few pencils and a sketchbook. See how that works out. Maybe some art markers if you want color.
There is nothing wrong with traditional drawing and it will feel better than plastic against glass anyway
sinful island
I have a few notebooks full of art, it's inconvenient to not be able to ctl-z and cleanly undo
urban stump
And many argue that not having ctrl+z makes you a better artist
sinful island
again, need this for work
yeah I highly don't care about the ctl-z argument. Eraser marks are not a trade off
urban stump
Alright. You do you, but I really do not recommend spending hundreds of dollars on a tablet when you seem to dislike drawing in the first place. But it's your money, do what you think will make you happiest.
sinful island
? what part of this says I dislike drawing?
I love drawing, I just don't like dealing with the inconveniences of traditional medium
I also like to find my art by scribbling and erasing
I feel I'll get better using a tablet vs using a mouse like I have been
and also less bloomy effect lol
shadow nest
I’d suggest go cheap to start, at least until you’re 100% sure you’ll be sticking with it, tablets can start getting expensive. Huion is a good alternative and have been getting closer to properly competing with Wacom over the last few years, once you’re sure, and you want the screen, then go for it. Think of it like a sanity check. I bought a cintiq when I wasn’t ready, that thing ended up A. Being a waste of time because I didn’t know what I actually needed/vs what was important, and B. didn’t know how to take care of it. But that’s just my advice lol
deft hollow
I'm sure this question gets asked all the time but for those who have applied for the mega grant, does epic typically send back an email saying they need to review your project further?
It's my first time applying for it and I was expecting either a definite yes or no. Kind of surprised by that response.
Is it a common one? Does it really mean anything? Should I get my Hopes up? Feel free to @ me as well
digital gate
you should learn to take silence as a no
deft hollow
Well I got a response that's why i asked @digital gate
carmine siren
@narrow vigil Don't randomly post irrelevant videos here
narrow vigil
Sorry, not a clue how that happened
carmine siren
Ah okay, no worries I removed it
sacred urchin
Guys I have a question regarding my work in industry. I'm a game developer and create visual simulation just like you guys. We put so much hard work and create those softwares, company ask me to write code for them to build their IP, which is fine for me as they are paying me for that.
But there is a important part I want to know, how can i get my share of creativity ? Means whatever I wrote for them, I want ownership of it, so that I can use it to showcase my work. After all I created it, there is no problem to give them the ownership, but I do feel I have issues when they take my ownership from the code. Please notice that I'm not taking over whole of their IP, but just asking the ownership of my work contribution. And i think its fair to ask for this. Could you guys share me some pointers ?
flat gazelle
Sure, just make sure it's in the contract before you start working.
This will rule you out from all major studios, but if it's important to you it's possible.
steel merlin
Getting ownership of your work that you create FOR the company while working for them is very, very rare.
From the company perspective they've paid you for that code by way of salary.
You can always ask of course, and it's an important thing to ask about BEFORE you sign a contract of any kind. Once you've signed something that covers IP rights, you're kind of locked in unless the company is VERY generous.
plucky hatch
Anyone familiar with SpeedTree, or just modeling trees in general please PM me could really do with a freelancer.
mystic hull
#looking-for-talent my friend
sinful island
man still can't decide between a medium and large intuos
fringe badger
How do you implement the Epic Games Online Services SDK into the engine?
spice dagger
@sinful island @fringe badger @green oyster You are all offtopic. Please move your discussion/questions to their appropriate channels.
@sinful island @fringe badger #lounge
@fringe badger #epic-online-services
sinful island
@spice dagger um this is 100% a career chat topic, idk what you're on about
spice dagger
@sinful island Your original discussion above was out of my scroll history, i apologies for jumping to that conclusion.
sinful island
thank you
pearl steppe
Look at the Parblo Coast.. wife did a bunch of research on the cheaper ones as a hobbyist and those came up as the best on a budget. Got her the Coast 16 for xmas and she's been pretty happy with it.
sinful island
friends mom had a intuous large, not sure what gen, but this thing is way too big for my desk and I'm honestly not happy with how it feels. Thinking medium is best. I really do like the tight strokes via wrist vs the large strokes using the whole arm. Something about that is just odd
placid forum
I've worked about 2 years as a solo dev on my vr game
I released it in december which was kind of a dumb idea
and I've been working five months on an update that I hope can convert it into something more marketable and address initial feedback
but I am starting to worry about all the opportunity cost--I'm focused on this full time at the expense of finding other work
anyone else at a similar crossroads? I'd like to stay trying to be an entrepreneur, I get a lot of vigor about the potential upside of trying to make a hit game on my own, but part of me worries I am throwing my financial future away. I'm 34 and prior to this worked about 8 years in the industry as a product manager/producer
nova tartan
What's your plan to reinvigorate excitement in your game?
How will you get players to take a second look at your game and get them to make the purchase this time?
Is the stress of financial instability outweighing the joy of making something yourself? If it is, you may want to come to terms with settling down in a more stable career path.
placid forum
hey Carthage thanks for taking the time
my update is converting my game to be open world instead of wave based, so I'm hoping that resonates more with vr players--a lot seemed turned off by the UI of the wave based game or feel like there are too many wave games. I'm almost done luckily so I can at least get a chance to breathe after that and then see how things go
for getting people to take a second look, my plan is to try and produce a lot of gifs for reddit. Blade & sorcery got a lot of attention in VR from posting gifs, so I am going to try and hit it heavily and hopefully get more attention since it's a dryer time for new releases
for the stress question..yes and no. Some days I get really stressed over it, but some days I really like the flexibility. I think the biggest thing for me is I really enjoy getting to learn different things and not be pigeon holed into one aspect of game dev. But my wife and I would like to have kids at some point, so that is kind of hovering in the background.
nova tartan
You may be able to find the best of both worlds if you look around, a smaller team would let you jump around to different roles. If you can find a smaller team that also has a stable company revenue stream that might be ideal for you.
I think a lot of this is prioritizing what's really important to you. Is raising a family more important than releasing a successful self-developed game? Are kids worth sacrificing your desired career path? Would you be miserable in a 9-5 office job where you do the same thing every day?
placid forum
I think that's a good idea to maybe try to find a smaller team
maybe after I finish this update I could try to do that, my prior work places have been more like 30-50 person studios so I've never been part of a studio that is like a team of 4 or something
might be more fun having that kind of experience
frosty nimbus
Kind-of off topic question here but did you ever do playtests and get feedback for your game prior to release? I'm someone in a similar position of working on their dubious dream game solo.
tidal depot
@placid forum If you find that team, the smaller company with a stable revenue stream, would love to hear about it
placid forum
@frosty nimbus probably not enough, I had friends and family playing but only did one round of external testing
elfin dust
Hi, I'm 34 and I've been doing architecture all my life and seem to have plateaued in my industry. I would like to move towards a career in modeling and programming. I'm fairly capable in python, I'm extremely fast (extremely) in modelling building using revit and it's API. I render in Unreal Engine using the python API and I've dabbed into the C++API a little. I can also model in blender. I'm super at listening and doing exactly what needs to be done. But in reality, I've never built a game before but would love to get a chance to. What's the chance of someone like me getting into the industry?
mystic hull
I'd say high enough, if someone like myself could get in, so could you 😄
It's all about convicing people to hire you, by being able to show off your work
which basically means you need 2 things:
- Actual work to show
- Good communication & possibly previous experience
It also matters where you're trying to apply
sinful island
@placid forum you're doing exactly what I have been dealing with
mystic hull
Worth noting im more on the engineering side though, so variation may be due
elfin dust
What position should I try to go after?
I would like to model and program
also, thanks so much for responding
mystic hull
I believe (dont quote me on that) that'd be something related to tech art
elfin dust
it's super helpful
mystic hull
Lots more people more experienced than me in that regard in here, so id wait on their replies as well 😛
Getting into coding for games with just python experience can be tough though
most engines use C++, exception being unity
but generally speaking, in indie studios you get to wear as many hats as you can 😄
elfin dust
I'm sure, I know there's an extensive C++ knowledge that I'm trying to build
I've been looking at the unreal engine C++ API and blueprints and in reality, you really need to have built a game to know what's what.
Hence, I'm trying to figure out where I'm at in the industry, or whether or not I'm qualified.
mystic hull
Coding & art are two very different departments, though
elfin dust
But I do know my building modeling skill is crazy.
mystic hull
you could be qualified in one and not the other, they're perfectly non inclusive
elfin dust
interesting
mystic hull
And even then in game programming its self, different departments can be quite different
Im mostly a game logic/network programmer
and let me tell you, the moment I tried coding for graphics I questioned my entire existence 😂
elfin dust
😆
mystic hull
All in all though, I'd stay start out by using blueprints, make stuff happen, and see how it goes from there
elfin dust
Would I have a better chance with smaller companies?
mystic hull
it's quite intuitive, and as an architect you do have the base knowledge in terms of math and physics to make sense out of all the different functions
Eh, I wouldn't know on that one
I honestly never worked in anything "industry" per se, mostly the smaller studios
and only for about 3 years now, so not much compared to others in here 😛
elfin dust
In regards to your own job, what programming languages do you deal with everyday?
mystic hull
right now, C++ and gdscript
(godot engine)
previously C# (unity)
the ones that count, at least
elfin dust
Interesting!
In interviews, what do you expect questions to be like?
sorry for the generic questions...
I guess, do you expect them to be ultra technical or do they look for someone willing to learn and easy to work with?
or most likely, all of the above....
mystic hull
It highly depends on who you're applying for
steel merlin
Oh man, Tech Artists are worth their weight in gold
mystic hull
but usually a combination of both
I've only done about maybe 7 interviews throughout my career? Probably not the best person to answer that
but that was my experience
Applying for AAA usually have some tough technical questions
was a bit better with the smaller entities for me, being required to show ability in actually getting stuff done instead - things like small practical tasks as proof of ability
as opposed to more theoretical questions, that is
elfin dust
Again, @mystic hull thank you so much. @steel merlin, I'm curious of the position of tech artist. I'm definitely feeling more confident now.
Man, I wish there was a like or 5 star button for your @mystic hull . Really thanks so much.
mystic hull
Thanks a lot m8, happy to help!
plucky hatch
hi all, would love to hear the best way to get into work in Unreal engine 4 maybe if anyone knows of any companies looking to hire someone. I'm looking at something like World builder or Blueprint Scripting ??
lilac walrus
the first step is to probably pick one or the other and focus on that
the second step is to build yourself a portfolio of projects / work you can show other people
shadow nest
Sounds like some of the convo today is tangentally related, so I might as well ask now. I'm mostly a 2D guy, a little experience contracted out by Lab Zero, but wanting to make the move into 3D. I've done tons of prelim training, but need proper experience. In yall's opinion am I better off trying to put together a team for a little hobby project or trying to get in on one? I'm mostly wanting to get experience in the art and gameplay design side of things, but am incredibly ill-suited to programming, how should I tackle this?
plucky hatch
yeah well I have a personal project I'm working on at the moment, then I have various things i've started to create all this I can present pretty in a google drive for example and on my youtube page. Just trying to find the kind of place to see about getting work, more so a company as it will most likly be lasting work not a short contract or anything like that.
lilac walrus
if you want to apply for work, realistically the only effective way of doing so is to apply directly to companies. That means finding them yourself, and applying to their open vacancies. I wouldn't do that before you have a decent portfolio put together though.
plucky hatch
would you recommend doing short contract work or freelance work in that case ??
i don't mind doing like freelance work first and kind of taking it from there
does someone know how to post on the looking for work channel ?? as i'd post on there just can't find out to do it
midnight wraith
@plucky hatch see pinned messages for instructions in the channel
plucky hatch
@flat gazelle Game programming a good career over in Sweden?
flat gazelle
Seems that way
lapis thicket
Awesome place, almost took a job over there, depends on your goals. Income vs cost of living is a little hard from my research. My take home pay would have been less than half, but rent was still not too cheap. If I was single I probably would have gone.
shadow kelp
I miss my trips to the studio in Malmo 😢
you in the new building yet @flat gazelle ?
shadow kelp
oh yeah I forgot you were at STH
cyan night
why do big companies make their own engines ? is it to avoid copyright scandals ? or to have more control over their features and stuff
hybrid phoenix
I do think it's largely the last bit, so control
gentle chasm
first of all, it's very recent thing to have such engine like UE4 or CryEngine available and ready to develop very different games - vanilla UE3 didn't include animation or AI systems, actually not much was there except level/material/particle editors ;)
- AAA studios work on their engines like 10-20 years already 😉
- UE4 is not ready for open worlds (but work in progress, Epic invests into it now)
- CryEngine/Lumberyard is still niche, often used where UE4 wasn't enough for open world 😄
hybrid phoenix
- UE4 is not ready for open worlds (but work in progress, Epic invests into it now)
Are they really though?
gentle chasm
hybrid phoenix
And one thing that cannot be overstated; in-house engines are often incredibly specialized for the specific things the studio needs them to do
gentle chasm
lot of toys we have in last two versions is aimed at open worlds
recent core engine refactors aims at open worlds and next-gen consoles 😉
hybrid phoenix
I can't recall much in that area beyond Landmass
gentle chasm
sky atmosphere, virtual texturing
gentle chasm
World Partition - finally a streaming solution for big worlds, also required workflow upgrade
no more sublevels, IDK why current solutions in Unreal are called "streaming" at all 😄
gentle chasm
sure, they don't market it as "open world specific features to get CDP RED to abandon their engine", obviously 😉
hybrid phoenix
Did I miss something?
gentle chasm
watch the video
hybrid phoenix
It's an hour long
gentle chasm
it's only place where they publicly talked about ti 😄
hybrid phoenix
Ah
gentle chasm
I mean, extensively talked
hybrid phoenix
I'll watch it, it's definitely something I should have watched, and I thought I had
gentle chasm
oh, oopsie
And one thing that cannot be overstated; in-house engines are often incredibly specialized for the specific things the studio needs them to do
@hybrid phoenix
Ubisoft games are specialized about being generic open worlds, really
plus motion matching for animations, and that's UE5 demo also teases 😉
UE5 gonna be an interesting update 😄
hybrid phoenix
Absolutely
vestal kernel
Hello! I'm purchacing a Motioncapture suit, but it is not cheap. I was thinking if i would start to sell animations. Would any of you even consider to purchase something like that?
vestal kernel
Oh, I googled that. I havent heard of this
Is it like animation library or something? @flat gazelle
flat gazelle
Yes
vestal kernel
But, i think i could make few bucks of that if you need like some specific animation that isnt there in the library?
🤔
flat gazelle
Probably
hybrid phoenix
If you can't justify getting it without that, don't expect to be able to justify it based on income you'll get from selling the animations
You might recoup part of the cost doing specific animations for people, you may also not recoup anything
mystic hull
Depends mostly on what they program, and the amount of experience they have
some will give lower rates if they live in poorer countries, but I wouldn't bet on it if you're after quality service
wet sorrel
Yes
nova tartan
programmers can make 100k a year, which comes out to 50$ an hour, salaried
freelance I would expect them to charge more than 50$ an hour
if they are in north america
hybrid phoenix
I expect a veteran programmer on a freelance basis to charge upwards of $100/h tbh
mystic hull
^
vivid crown
Mmmmm, $75k a year, 1 year experience min, 10 person team, and they work in Python?
Take my fucking resume
Holy shit
trail leaf
RedRoute sounds like a boring place to work though
Software engineers tend to make quite a lot in business apps
hybrid phoenix
Also 75k may sound like a lot, but it likely isn't when you're living in NY
trail leaf
yeah, that's a good point. Especially if you have to live new Brooklyn
vivid crown
Yeah
Brooklyn housing
It’s like $2M for an apartment that would cost £200k over here
Fucking crazy
vivid crown
Well yeah it is
For example if that was CA
you can get a real nice house for like 2.5k/mo
Still got around 3750/mo after that
Still, expensive tho.
I plan to get a permanent job in CA/SF, if possible. In a couple of years.
trail leaf
I mean, money is all relative.
If you could earn that but like in say, Thailand, you'd live like a king
barren lotus
Don't know if this has been shared yet but since there's talk of salaries in here https://twitter.com/hashtag/GameDevPaidMe
Twitter
mystic hull
I almost teared, reading some of those
sarcasm (not making fun of it, though), but man we are underpaid .-.
vivid crown
$164k + Bonus for a game designer?
@mystic hull That's unpaid? :|
Now i see, some of them are utter shit.
I've seen that apps are like fucking 10x more profitable.
mystic hull
yeah exactly, the over/well paid folks are just the higher ranking ones apparently
which does make sense
and QA is a joke
vivid crown
@mystic hull Quality Assurance?
lmao fuck me
I'm going to college, studying Computer Science.
Currently working in Unity, C#, in my own time.
I'm starting to regret my decision of getting into Unity after reading this.
Although, any careers i've even considered have been high paid, Junior positions. For small companies.
mystic hull
Yeah QA is quality assurance, they're the guys that tell you you messed up
vivid crown
bruh
For example, one was a 10 person team, Brooklyn, NY. They bring in $4M/Yr. Starting salary is $75k.
However, cost of living in NY, is ridiculous.
mystic hull
I honestly haven't had issues in indies as an engineer
Im relatively well paid
BUT, you have to at least eat dirt for a couple years at first
vivid crown
yeah
I figured
I'm currently in the United Kingdom.
But i've got a solid plan for moving to the US.
vivid crown
yessir
mystic hull
even outside of games
vivid crown
There is the odd good one tho
vivid crown
There's a traineeship, no exp required, straight out of college, like 18. $20k Starting salary.
Not too bad for 18.
mystic hull
Not bad
mystic hull
Can't disclose atm, and I write code 😛
fickle hatch
I run a small company and I don't get paid
mystic hull
Ive been honestly looking into running my own company at this point
vivid crown
^
fickle hatch
@mystic hull I would not recommend unless you're like, super into this stuff
mystic hull
Still yet to do the research, tips are appreciated
fickle hatch
Imagine living in unending stress for several years until you can truly enjoy the benefits of running your company
vivid crown
^
fickle hatch
Running your own company is a little like slowly killing yourself, but doing it badly so you don't actually die
mystic hull
Ouch .-.
vivid crown
I wouldn't want the burden of running my own company
mystic hull
I want to make my own games, really, is about all there's to it
vivid crown
Unless i was like those kids who have cool ideas, and do them
mystic hull
whilst actually being able to afford noodles
mystic hull
yes, because you're granted broke for the first year or so 😄
vivid crown
i really do not want to go to university, i don't enjoy having debt
but i'm scared i might have to
mystic hull
It helps if you want to get into other industries
mystic hull
Im not that "dont go to school" guy but
Having my peers still be at their 5th engineering year
while I have 5 years of experience (not exclusively in games) and a well paid job
feels like quite the win. Though it is a risk, for many
and well, I did eat absolute dirt the first couple years 😄
vivid crown
lol
I mean, i plan to get 3-4 yrs experience over here
While saving money
Then try find a job in the US
mystic hull
How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?
vivid crown
17
My family is somewhat wealthy, so i have a feeling they'll support me, financially. Not hugely though.
I mean, the cost of living over here is like, fucking nothing
mystic hull
Aha, plan ahead, though 😛
hybrid phoenix
I started gamedev as pretty much a full-time job when I was 13, alongside my school which I massively neglected. Did a year of uni, but bailed because it was useless. Am now almost 20, and I've got a well-paying job in the industry as technical artist based on my portfolio
That said, should I want a job outside of the industry, my CV/portfolio is entirely useless, and should I ever want to emigrate outside of the EU I'm likely also screwed
For gamedev, experience > degree
But sacrificing your degree to get experience will hurt your options outside of the games industry
In my case it's convenient because I'm not sacrificing anything for my experience, because I accrued it while in high-school
But I'm not sure what I'd have done if I'd have gotten into gamedev when I was 17, and still needed time to get better
wary idol
Reminds me very much of myself... I'm 20
Started learning when I was 11 (this tells you how many friends I had lol), started with 3d modelling but switched to learning programming (C# and C++) soon after. Didn't do great at school either, finished high school and got a job in the industry as a programmer.
For gamedev in my experience a degree means nothing, no one ever asked me for my level of education just experience. For jobs outside gamedev a degree is probably very important
thorn pecan
here is a lots of young people. when i was young, there was no C#, even no c++ in the world. i worked on ASM, BASIC and COBOL on System/360, VAX and PDP-11
honest cipher
@vivid crown playground was offering me 45k
when i was in talks with them last year
are you counting pre-post tax?
vivid crown
For what job?
honest cipher
i think junior engine
but i dont remember exactly if it was junior engine dev of gameprogramer
vivid crown
Yh
I’m thinking of steering away from games
And just work as a software engineer for a company instead
The U.K. is pretty good for traineeships
Since the cost of living is low over here
trail leaf
Running your own company is fantastic.
For me, the last 13 years running a game studio has a lot of ups and downs, but the ups were really, really, really awesome.
lilac walrus
"The U.K. is pretty good for traineeships
Since the cost of living is low over here"
The cost of living in the UK is worse than nearly all other countries in Europe?
not to mention low quality of life :/
hybrid phoenix
Yeah running your own company is great for some people. It can definitely suck, but it can also be amazing. I'd be surprised if I don't end up going back to running my own studio/team again in the future, because I think it's great 😛
trail leaf
You learn a whole bunch of things and have a tonne of great stories to tell
vivid crown
@lilac walrus you can live on like 20k a year
and in the US they seem to be very unhappy to be on $70,000
@trail leaf How much revenue do y'all pull in?
And what type of company is it?
trail leaf
A few million per annum. Game studio.
vivid crown
@trail leaf So, you're safe to call yourself a millionaire?
trail leaf
Mmm, yes but not because of the company.
trail leaf
16 people, specialize in UE (I have over 20 years exp), we made a game called Depth which we released in 2014
lilac walrus
you can live on £20k a year, if you don't live in a major city, same as you can live on $70k a year if you don't live in a major city
£20k in the UK puts you below the median salary and quite close to the poverty line
hybrid phoenix
Ah, cool, you did Depth
vivid crown
@lilac walrus Well, i'm in manchester.
There's a lot of good se jobs in manchester.
idk why i tagged u
lilac walrus
it's around £25k
lilac walrus
that would also be considered 'the breadline'
vivid crown
yh
Ngl i don't think i could ever do web development as a profession
it's boring as fuck
vivid crown
@trail leaf Where do you actually pull your revenue from? Steam sales? Investors, etc?
trail leaf
Starting salary at my studio is around the $46K to $50K NZD area, this is typically someone who has just come out of school and has 0 experience
For us it is a mix of places, Steam revenue and contracting.
No investors and no publishers
hybrid phoenix
Is that Steam revenue still from Depth?
vivid crown
Do you allow remote work, or is it purely in-office?
trail leaf
We tried having contractors outside of NZ, it was OK but wasn't the best. Within NZ has been good.
Where is here?
vivid crown
The United Kingdom
trail leaf
? There's loads of indie studios in the UK
Feels like more oppprtunities too compared to NZ
vivid crown
I mean, that'll take on people like fresh out of school.
I'm yet to find one in Manchester.
trail leaf
Well, I mean we do, but like one ever y few years
Because the time it takes to train someone is long
vivid crown
Yeah
trail leaf
I was at EGX a long time ago, and people like Ian Livingstone were there
Super nice chap, if you got talent and can show him something he often gives people time of day to talk to them
We don't really have investors here
vivid crown
Oh dang
Nice
One thing i'm not excited about, is making the decision whether to go to University or not.
hybrid phoenix
UK is honestly one of the best places to be when it comes to gamedev concentration
vivid crown
I really don't want that debt on me, but, you know.
hybrid phoenix
It's the UK or some cities in the states
Well
If you want to do gamedev, screw the degree (unless you want to be an engineer in gamedev, then CompSci is still worthwhile)
If you're not really sure if you want to be doing gamedev
Get a degree
vivid crown
I've enrolled in Comp Science, in college.
hybrid phoenix
If you do indeed want to be an engineer then that's your best course of action
For pretty much any other position in gamedev portfolio trumps CV
vivid crown
Mind naming some for me?
hybrid phoenix
Have a look at this
Mind you, that includes a load of not-so-interesting devs
But they're there nevertheless
trail leaf
My tip, don't get those game dev degrees at private colleges. All the ones I have seen in NZ have been trash. Half of them run like some weird MLM scheme
hybrid phoenix
Don't get a gamedev degree, period.
vivid crown
^
Games Design or whatever was an option at my college, and i never would've chosen that.
trail leaf
By MLM scheme, I have been told that some of the tutors were freshly graduated students teaching new students
hybrid phoenix
This industry is not worth saddling up educational depth for, unless it's transferable
trail leaf
That's fucked up.
trail leaf
Yep
Because the schools don't often pay much for an experienced developer
And experienced developers have two better options, work for a game studio or make their own games
vivid crown
:/
trail leaf
Another option is to start a studio yourself. As long as your have the skill to do things. I started mine at 24.
hybrid phoenix
I started mine at 17 (my hobby stuff before that was more unofficial and "hobby") and never released anything but ended up getting a well-paying job at 19 (which is now) because I did interesting stuff with my own company
vivid crown
I'm currently 16, hoping to get into work after college. I don't intend on going to University, as i'm sure i can find jobs that don't require me to do so.
trail leaf
Off to bed. Have a good night chaps.
vivid crown
Take it easy.
hybrid phoenix
Good night 😛
vivid crown
@hybrid phoenix What company do you work at?
hybrid phoenix
Lo-Fi Games, Kenshi devs
vivid crown
Nice
I'm currently getting into C#, Unity. But i'm debating if unreal/c++ would support me more in the future.
hybrid phoenix
Where do you want to end up?
vivid crown
Either at an Indie Game Dev studio, or a general software engineer.
vivid crown
Not too sure on that one.
hybrid phoenix
In that case, you'll have many more options being experienced with C++ than C#
pearl steppe
There's a lot to consider on both fronts, and the harsh truth is that if you don't have a passion for either, you'll grow up to be mediocre in whichever you end up choosing.
C++ will be better for game dev, there's more general work using C#
vivid crown
Dang
I'd been messing around on UE4 for around a month, then i switched to Unity and started learning C#.
Guess i better move back. lol
pearl steppe
stick with c++ just as a general rule. once youre fluent with it, learning c# will be a lot easier
learn data structures, algorithms, and OOP principles
pearl steppe
those are things that are language agnostic, and will set you apart from many self-taught devs
mmm, i'm certain.
vivid crown
I've been following a Udemy course for the past week or so.
Are udemy courses even worth?
pearl steppe
ahh, i guess you're handy with IoC and DI by now, then.
and yes, any learning resource is useful. it all comes together over time
vivid crown
You're gonna have to speak in plain terms. I'm not too familiar with these abbreviations just yet. lol
pearl steppe
that's sort of my point.
vivid crown
Mmmmm
vivid crown
Yikes
pearl steppe
and just to be clear - learning a language through a game engine is the worst way to learn any language.
vivid crown
Yeah, i think i figured that out yesterday.
pearl steppe
they're generally treated like scripting languages rather than programming languages
vivid crown
I decided to mess around with ConsoleApps in C#, and i was so confused.
pearl steppe
there are a number of programming oriented discord communities worth exploring if you are genuinely interested in learning programming parallel to any game dev pursuits
vivid crown
Of course i am.
hybrid phoenix
And this is why CompSci is important for engineers
pearl steppe
i'd advise joining one or more, as they tend to be great sources for contextual support, heh
vivid crown
Feel free to send me some.
hybrid phoenix
But there's a big difference between striving to be a system engineer in gamedev and just doing gameplay programming
hybrid phoenix
I think learning it through a game-engine is fine
But it's very different from what C++ is like in other places
vivid crown
Argh
hybrid phoenix
Hence, if your goal is to be an engineer, do CompSci and general programming as a basis and extend that to gamedev on the side
If your intent is just to do gameplay programming and such, you should just dig deep into games programming
pearl steppe
it's fine for game dev, but game engines tend to be counterintuitive for things like architecture, tdd, etc.
i'm not as fluent in c++ these days, so can't name any good c++ discords offhand, but there's a fair amt of crossover between c++/# on a couple i'm in
vivid crown
I intend to either get into a Game Development career, or a career like Software Engineering for like webapp companies. Or, maybe something like raytheon in the future, etc.
pearl steppe
those are wildly different paths, though
hybrid phoenix
Those are all really fundamentally different things
Software engineering != webapp != gamedev
pearl steppe
^
hybrid phoenix
Within gamedev, engine dev is as close as you'll get to software engineering
So for engineering within gamedev, get a compsci degree
vivid crown
Degree, as in Uni?
plucky hatch
I would def stick with data structures, algorithms, and general CS concepts and explore those different fields with small projects. Create a webapp, make a game, work with low level hardware - you will get a better idea of what to get into
hybrid phoenix
For as far as I have anything meaningful to say about this stuff, it's about gamedev, but I can't advise you on i.e. software engineering and what to do when in doubt between the bunch, because for me gamedev has always been the only contender
vivid crown
I was taking a look on twitter at #GameDevPaidMe
And, supposedly, it's not too good, especially in the US.
hybrid phoenix
Gamedev pay is garbage compared to equivalent skill-level programming jobs outside of the industry
So if making good money is important to you, don't get into gamedev
vivid crown
As of now, i don't see money as a form of motivation, as i'm obviously not going to get any. I just enjoy doing it. Although, in the future, i would enjoy being in a stable career, with a good income.
hybrid phoenix
Especially on the indie side, prospects for pay are not great, generally
vivid crown
Yeah
lilac walrus
in the UK, most game dev degrees are not worth the paper they're printed on, so be cautious
hybrid phoenix
High pay senior jobs make at the top end ~50k in the UK, I think
vivid crown
Dang
lilac walrus
the median salary in games in the UK is probably about £30k
vivid crown
I don't think i will end up going to University.
lilac walrus
engineering fairing a bit better at around £36k
hybrid phoenix
Second sheet is averages
lilac walrus
well, having degree level education will still help
vivid crown
I saw an NA one of those yesterday.
lilac walrus
just not necessarily a games degree
pearl steppe
yeah in terms of income reliability, C# for business systems will be your bread and butter, and indie gamedev is going to be the microbrew to wash it down with, heh.
hybrid phoenix
Generally speaking, your prospect for programming long-term is in the 40k range for the UK
And very long term 50k
pearl steppe
unless you get an actual degree in game dev, because there's a lot that goes into it, and established studios rarely spend time to train up
lilac walrus
you're better off getting a relevant non-games degree and doing games stuff on the side
software engineering is what I'd look at for the programming track
lilac walrus
then expect to throw half of what you've learnt out of the window anyway because the games industry does not follow many common engineering conventions very rigidly
vivid crown
I've only done a weeks worth of C# learning, not too big of a deal.
remote saffron
tbh you will have to throw half of what you've learnt even if you work in another industry as a software engineer
lilac walrus
haha, depending on the industry, that is still true
pearl steppe
it's what i've been doing more recently - game dev on the side. been in IT for over 20yrs, 12 or so of it full time dev work
kinda wish i'd been doing games on the side a lot longer, but honestly i didn't have the time, and engines weren't as accessible until more recently
plus they're a lot of work for just one or two people for anything worthwhile, heh.
vivid crown
I think i better make a start on C++.
And i know what you mean by game engine C# being diff from normal C#
pearl steppe
yeah well it's even more of a trainwreck in unity than other engines
kind of the worst case comparison, lol
vivid crown
lmao
pearl steppe
it was a hard decision to come to UE, because i've barely touched c++ since uni
and even then, mostly for arduino based projects
hybrid phoenix
From what I've heard UE4 C++ vs C++ is worse than Unity C# vs C#
pearl steppe
ahh, well i haven't delved that deep yet, so no first hand knowledge
only been working with ue for about a week, effectively
vivid crown
So, would you guys say i'd need to go to Uni if i want to proceed into a career in Software Engineering, or?
pearl steppe
still tinkering with BP since i have one or two lesser devs on board
you don't NEED to, but you gotta be hardcore if you want to educate yourself equivalently
vivid crown
Define hardcore. lol
pearl steppe
Teachers come from a place of knowledge and assign curriculum in a structured format. You won't have that benefit of structured and progressive learning without engaged community support. You'll need direction on what to learn based on what you know.
don't get complacent because you can fudge some lines together and make a computer do something
i mean study
and don't stop studying
data structures, algorithms, OOP principles/concepts
those are all language agnostic topic areas
pearl steppe
from there you can start looking at architectures, test driven development frameworks, etc
but at least - if you're generally sticking to members of the C family, you have visual studio on your side.
pearl steppe
that seems.....sketchy
pearl steppe
but then there are in fact a lot of sketchy postings on udemy
we've picked apart a few of them on one of the C# discords i'm in, lol
folks who come by asking for thoughts on the matter and such, heh
vivid crown
lmao
pearl steppe
but yeah, i do suggest learning C++ before C#. things are a lot more manual, but it'll give you a deeper understanding of what you're actually doing under the hood when you start learning C# later on
kinda like taking the training weights off, lol
wary idol
Yeah ^
trail leaf
Game dev should be recognised for what it is, high risk high reward style pay.
Some studios can offer you a share in the project which can be quite rewarding when the games do very well.
No business app developer does that, so what they do instead is just pay more per annum
However a business app developer isn't suddenly going to make a million because of a hit game
There are also game dev studios that pay quite a lot more than business app developers, but they are very hard to get into.
remote saffron
which studio pays more? 🤔
trail leaf
I knew someone who was at Zynga who was earning north of $300K to $350K
Because the game he worked on was earning truckloads of money. He was working on Farmville during its hey day.
I knew people at Microsoft Game Studios who were also earning about that much as well. They tended to be engineers who helped 1st party games get shipped.
Survivorship bias aside, Notch is a good example of what being a super successful game developer can be. He was already working at a game studio during development of Minecraft.
But he earnt a cool million in 6 to 7 months after Minecraft became viral... And then many more millions in the years to come
remote saffron
if you aim for that kind of money 1.) you are in the wrong industry and 2.) you will be disappointed
trail leaf
I already own a multi million dollar game studio.
remote saffron
good for you
trail leaf
It isn't impossible and there are ways to do it.
mystic hull
instructions unclear; stuck in my mom's basement send help
On a more serious note though, and in my very humble opinion
You just have to be worth the money, to earn the money
trail leaf
But, game development is a high risk, high reward style job. In my opinion, don't view it as a stable career option.
mystic hull
aside from QA, who're just well underpaid
trail leaf
I wish that was true.
mystic hull
I'm sure your success doesn't come from nowhere, right? 🤷♂️
trail leaf
What value does someone like Kylie Jenner bring to the world, for her to be crowned as the youngest billionaire on Earth?
remote saffron
being an entrepreneur is in general high risk, high reward, and I don't think game dev is the place with the best chances
game development is a high risk, high reward style job if you make your own studio: maybe. If you are working in the industry? 99% of the time it's not
trail leaf
Game development is also a passion industry. For anyone to go into it seeking riches with zero passion, I haven't seen many succeed with that attitude.
mystic hull
That's also the thing getting abused sadly
trail leaf
There are studios that off project royalties. If the projects are successful then people do very well on them.
remote saffron
it being a passion industry contributes to the fact that it is pretty hard to be a winner imo
isn't that pretty rare? royalties?
I think I know about 3 studios who does that
trail leaf
Just got to go looking
mystic hull
I don't think the Kylie Jenner argument works for this case - she may not provide any value to you (or me for that matter), but she does provide some value to the average joe apparently, else she wouldn't be financially successful. She's a product as any other
trail leaf
I view the game industry as a creative industry, like making music and making film.
remote saffron
Blue, if you define value with money then obviously your argument is right
mystic hull
Only because it's the topic of the argument 😛
mystic hull
I think people do games for a lot of different reasons, hence why motives are abusable
remote saffron
even if we define value as money, saying that it does not come from nowhere is not true in all case
trail leaf
Sometimes just having the right idea is enough. Whether the actual implementation is any good doesn't matter.
remote saffron
being in the right place the right time works pretty well for some 🤷♂️
also some people just inherit a fortune
trail leaf
Plenty of people critique Minecraft being built in Java. But it didn't matter.
remote saffron
most successful indie games with public source code turned out to be terrible from a coder perspective
trail leaf
Plenty of engineers looked at it back then and was saying stuff like, Java? It'd be 100% better in <insert language>.
I want to present the side of professional game dev that is awesome though. Yes, the failure rate is really high. Yes, there are jobs that can give you a level of security with great pay off the bat. But, if you take it for what it is, a high risk high reward industry then it is possible to do really well and potentially even better than those jobs at the end of the day.
mystic hull
Well said 👌
Just accepting the fact that you may become the loser at some point helps a lot 😄
trail leaf
Ha ha
mystic hull
Besides, I don't really think "job security" exists, in any sense
Nah freal, it's hard to accept, but it's the most probable outcome
You only get sad over it if you can't aknowledge the fact
trail leaf
Yes that is the unfortunate case.
As we can see, even being a landlord isn't a 100% secure job.
mystic hull
Anywho, I'm getting called for dinner
Thanks for the good chat though! Be back in a bit 😛
nova tartan
No business app developer does that, so what they do instead is just pay more per annum
Being offered shares as part of compensation is extremely common for software development
trail leaf
Sure, but shares is very different to royalties.
marsh stream
I have an interview coming up and I was thinking since its my first interview for a games company, that I'd like to record it (Audio Only). So I can learn from my experience being interviewed.
Is there any idk legal issue with that? Yes I know the whole, no one would know thing. But I'm just curious, if the company would not be happy with that?
plucky hatch
Why would you want to record it? Just why?:)) I mean, if it is a game studio, it will be a friendly chat, you know? It' s how things go down in this business as far as European part of the things go
You will basically record a chat :))
marsh stream
So I can analyze my behavior and see where i need to improve in regards to my interviewing skills . Maybe I talk too quickly? Maybe I ramble on too much ? stuff like that
plucky hatch
that is not even remotely connected to job interviews for..."serious jobs" like in a bank, PR, HR, business of...any kind
Yeah well that won t really help from my perspective because 1. you are and behave in a certain way based on the temperamental trait you have which, contrary to what people think, it is near impossible to change or control. For example if you are cholerical and try to subdue it while in there, you will start rocking a foot, having fast hand gestures etc etc etc. 2. In this business companies (the good ones) look for originality and partnership with the real people. Real people meaning that you have to be yourself, if they care about their business, they'll care about you being you not fearing "corporate stuff".
marsh stream
I understand that but being able 'to interviewed' is sort of a soft skill isnt it?
Its not like we are all just born great 'interviewees' and I for one am fairly anxious through out these types of things and thought it'd be a good idea to see where i can improve
ashen lynx
@marsh stream Interview is not something that you should be polishing. Hence recording it on your side makes little sense.
It is as preparing for exam rather than learning the subject.
It is not uncommon for interview to be recorded on the hiring side, but for anything than top level positions, is not something were such recording would ever be reviewed.
You can ask interviewer, if he is comfortable with convo being recorded, but such question is likely to spook him, unless you try to explain your reasoning, which, if you do, will work against you.
Otherwise, if you are convinced that you need it AND you ensure that such recording never leaves your storage, record it silently and don't tell a thing.
hybrid phoenix
Also, you'll likely second guess yourself a lot more intensely than is warranted if you keep listening back to your interview
Basically what Deathrey said
marsh stream
Yeah valid points from all of you : /
idk why i feel the need to 😅
I definitely don't want to second guess myself and as @hybrid phoenix says, it'll definitely happen if i have a recording of it...
hybrid phoenix
A good company/interviewer will also explain their decision to not take you past the interview stage, by the way
So they'll tell you what they're missing from their perspective
marsh stream
oh really?? thats great to know
hybrid phoenix
(At least, my recruiter said they do)
(Not sure if that applies when you're not working with a recruiter...)
marsh stream
Ah I see. Well hopefully they do
ashen lynx
I'll spoil you things a bit. From all the interviews I've been through, only one did not end up with a job offer and I terminated that one myself. So don't overestimate importance of this step and don't stress out for no reason.
trail leaf
I usually don't say much about why someone is rejected.
Because it can (and sometimes will) be used against the employer.
Even if the reasoning makes perfect sense.
Depending on which country you live in.
marsh stream
@ashen lynx yeah I'll definitely try to stay calm and collective 👍
hybrid phoenix
Might be a recruiter thing then
trail leaf
My experience with recruiters haven't been that positive.
marsh stream
Thanks for all the info guys 👍
trail leaf
Best of luck.
hybrid phoenix
I feel like there's a very hard split with recruiters
Because I've been told that "recruiters aren't worth your time" dozens of times
But I decided to give it a shot anyway, and the guy I worked with was a god-sent
trail leaf
I haven't had good experiences with recruiters from an employer point of view.
hybrid phoenix
How so?
trail leaf
The ones that sent me CVs were just shot gunning
So it got more frustrating than anything
hybrid phoenix
Yeah, that's what I've heard from an employee perspective from the people who say recruiters suck
trail leaf
Ones that work in a specific field can be really good.
hybrid phoenix
I worked with a tech-art specialized recruiter to get tech-art jobs
He was incredibly valuable in that he actually knew what portfolios etc. for similar applicants look like, what companies expect from their positions and how a given company handles their application process etc.
I was incredibly worried about my portfolio, and if I hadn't reached out to him I'd have spent four more months working on it in stress over its quality
trail leaf
Nice.
The ones I got vaguely just told the recruiter that they had UE experience
Me asking fairly basic questions in the phone interview kind of proved that they didn't know what they were talking about
What made me laugh was people reading documentation I wrote back to me.
trail leaf
Which while correct, made it obvious that they themselves didn't know and were looking it up
plucky hatch
@trail leaf can you tell us more about your company?
trail leaf
What do you want to know?
plucky hatch
@marsh stream I think the main issue here is being to self aware, which is a curse, even if you have little self awarness (at least in my point of view), I went to job interviews that were recorded and never gave a damn about it. Also I've said ''what the fuck am I supposed to do" in job interview and I got the job so...gaming industry is different, and I hope, AT LEAST IN THIS FIELD, talent based.
@trail leaf Anything that you can share in the direction of a site, what is the main activity, stuff like this
marsh stream
Yeah your absolutely correct . I think its my nerves getting to me. I'll just try to be my authentic-self and hope its what they are looking for 👍
plucky hatch
It's not often one comes across a person that establishes a studio that "makes it" so it s interesting
plucky hatch
How did you started?
trail leaf
I started in the mod scene.
Originally started doing stuff in Doom and Duke3D.
Wrote one of the original documents about the scripting system for Duke3D back then
But that's kind of ancient stuff now, after Duke3D, I tried to do stuff in Quake but didn't have much success. Unreal was way easier me for me for some reason.
plucky hatch
When and how did the turning point happened? Like getting from an employee or a service provider to a real employer and studio?
trail leaf
Starting professionally, I helped on a mod call The Ball with Sjoerd during Make Something Unreal
I was very active on the UDK forums
With The Ball winning placements on MSUC and being very active on forums, I was asked by Epic Games to become an evangelist for UDK
I did this for about 2 - 3 years and during that time I got a lot of exposure to a lot of studios, both indie and AAA studios
I founded the company before I became an evangelist, but it was that job that actually paid me well enough to leave my other job.
The exposure helped me to find my other clients that I was able to start working for them along side my evangelism duties.
The evangelism job finished up but by then I had shifted to helping other people make their games
By that point The Ball had released on Steam and was doing quite well
plucky hatch
Are you still doing stuff for games or are you like the CEO that ''retired'' in his office?
trail leaf
I'm still actively working on games.
That's what I enjoy doing. Not sure I'd ever retire to be like that. I'd probably hire someone to do those duties if we ever get large enough.
plucky hatch
brb i ll have to restart my pc it s makes a weird sound
yeah it wasn t my pc
ok so...What do you do specifically when you say ''working on games''?
trail leaf
I'm a jack of all trades, so I can do a lot of things but I mostly focus on engineering
plucky hatch
I see, sorry I was trying to figure our a way of fixing my packing issue
hardy cloak
Hello
I have trying to make a Gaan Square of Nine Calculator
I have done a bit of it
But I am unable to finish it
Can someone please help me?
lilac walrus
a) This is an Unreal game development community
b) #looking-for-talent
c) This sounds a lot like you're trying to get someone else to do your work for you.
vivid crown
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/careers/job/autopilot-systemssoftwareengineer-40464
dang
think tesla would be a good place to work?
scenic moon
I would personally be terrified to work on technology that means life or death for it's users
fickle hatch
I did it before. It's pretty fun.
Though in practice, I only saved a bunch of cows rather than people xD
@scenic moon the truth is, any sufficiently fun technology (subjective to tech I like personally ofc) likely carries a life or death significance in it
Right now I work with subway trains - life or death themes are core to the whole thing. Previously I worked with UAV's, which have enough energy to kill a person or two
There is a certain atmosphere and mentality about working with deadly things
wary idol
I'll stick to games, thanks 😂
vivid crown
@fickle hatch erm
you worked on
fucking UAV's?
UAV INBOUND!
COUNTER-UAV ACTIVATED
fickle hatch
Yeah. For reconaissance
marsh stream
Hi guys, I wanted to ask if there are any particular questions that are asked in an interview for a games company, that aren't 'common' questions in most interviews. I have googled a couple but just thought I could ask you guys as well
trail leaf
It's highly dependent on what they are interviewing about.
We generally do most of the technical questions outside the interview, so we tend to ask far more soft skill questions. We also observe body language and we also do general competency tests as well.
marsh stream
ah interesting. Thanks for the info , i know my question was really broad so i appreciate the response 👍
buoyant latch
Posted this on reddit, but wanted to put it here as well because this community was instrumental in helping me get into the industry:
So I think its totally fine to pay for 1 on 1 coaching and in-depth portfolio reviews, but I see a lot of people treating their expertise like something they earned entirely on their own merit and expecting compensation for their "professional" opinions, and it kinda rubs me the wrong way.
As a self taught artist (and by that I mean the interent and kind people who shared their expertise with me along the way), I want to do what I can to give back and help other people trying to learn like I was. So if you're an environment/prop/lighting artist and looking for some professional feedback, feel free to reach out. I'll answer on Reddit but discord is preferred (deadfox4#4625). I don't have a ton of free time, but I'd be happy to glace through portfolios, give tips, or answer any questions anyone might have whenever I can.
It feels kinda stuck up to offer advice like this. I'm nowhere close to the best/most experienced environment artist around, but I'm decent, employeed, and have been successful in my career so far. I know I would have loved the opportunity to talk to someone where I am now back when I was working on my portfolio and trying to get a job, so maybe there's some peeps out there who are in the same spot.
Qualifications:
- I'm a (recently promoted) senior environment artist and the lead environment artist on the DLC for Remnant from the Ashes.
- I specialize in lookdev and lighting, but have experience with worldbuilding, modsets, asset creation, materials, etc.
- Portfolio (hasn't been updated in a bit): https://www.artstation.com/mcgillchris
digital gate
Charging for portfolio reviews? I'd argue that sets you up for being responsible for the final product to some extent. Nasty, tangled business there. Just do it for free, they don't take that long.
buoyant latch
yea thats pretty much my point
celest kelp
does anyone know a good thing to start on when making an FPS for someone just beginning to learn UE4
zinc star
Is this the right area to ask for advice on wages?
lilac walrus
yes
zinc star
I've just been offered a ue4 programming job at a local studio on a 3 month contract but I'm not really sure what to request on a daily rate. I've got an advanced diploma in game programming, bachelors in game development and just shy of 1 year of unity development at another local studio. Is there a standard/minimum I should be looking at?
There was no real guidelines of any sort attached to the offer when I applied, just that they were looking for a junior and intermediate programmers
hybrid phoenix
Where are you located?
zinc star
Sydney, Australia
hybrid phoenix
Is it short-term employment or a freelance contract?
zinc star
Short term contract, 3 month full time, with the prospect of extending it later
hybrid phoenix
So you're essentially a freelancer?
zinc star
I guess, though it's not exactly a freelance contract
hybrid phoenix
Are they paying into a pension and handling employment taxes?
zinc star
No, but I'm working with the studio in a designated team
hybrid phoenix
Then you're a freelancer
zinc star
Sure
hybrid phoenix
So your rates should be higher than what you'd get as an employee
zinc star
Yeah I understand that, I'm just not sure what rates are standard
hybrid phoenix
Look what people make doing this full-time and multiply that by two and see what they say
zinc star
By two? geez ok
hybrid phoenix
Yeah, you've got your company tax going off it, pensions, insurances
zinc star
I thought two was a bit high
hybrid phoenix
Lots of stuff that an employer would usually pay for
hybrid phoenix
Two is a bit high, but they'll likely just tell you if it's too high
If you're not comfortable with two, 1.5x
wary idol
How much you should ask for heavily depends on your level of experience 🤷♀️
hybrid phoenix
But essentially, if you low-ball you can't go back up, if you estimate high they'll likely just say "Oh that's more than we had in mind can you come down"
zinc star
How much you should ask for heavily depends on your level of experience 🤷♀️
@wary idol I'm not super experienced, I've got two qualifications but <1 year industry experience in unity, none in unreal although my focus during all of my studies has been towards unreal
Cool cool
hybrid phoenix
Also your income tax being 30% != your employer's tax being 30%
For reference on that stuff for au specifically
zinc star
Awesome, I'll take a look, thanks!
latent mica
Do you guys think that any employer would value such projects where an single dev uses assets which aren't even done from the dev ?
Like animations, particle system's and such while the dev did just the gameplay logic part in BP's/C++ ?
https://youtu.be/RNIcxtx47n4
hybrid phoenix
You want to charge more than an employee would cost them, an an employee, based on that, costs them ~1.4x what their salary is
You need to be doing the parts that are relevant to your position. Everything else can be MP/CC0/w.e.
So if you're looking for work as a programmer, make sure all the code is actually yours
latent mica
Luckly i can say that all the C++ code is mine ^^
hybrid phoenix
Nobody is expecting you to be a magical butterfly who can do an entire project on his own ;3
So no worries on incorporating third-party stuff, as long as it's really clear what you did and did not do
peak lily
Hi, all. I just would like some information about how hard is it to find a part-time game developer job in the major cities in North America? I'm still a student (cs major, graduating in 10 months) with low course load, I had 1-year UE4 co-op experience with a local game studio. I just want to find a part-time job to keep building my skills. How hard would it be under recent circumstances?
hybrid phoenix
Lol, I have my moments
Then there's the times where I lurk for three months in a row, just occasionally poking my head out to ask some complex rendering questions before I disappear again
fickle hatch
@hybrid phoenix Wow, 1.4x isn't too bad. But maybe it's EU vs US or something.In EU, you generally assume around 2x or worse
hybrid phoenix
Yeah, employees are expensive as balls in the EU
But that's also why you won't see an employee with a US salary here
Like, good luck making more than 50k in the EU
Whereas in the US if you're making <50k you're kinda screwed
fickle hatch
But on the other hand, that 2x cost flows into social stuff and healthcare lol
hybrid phoenix
But if you look at freelance rates, they're way closer together
Because freelancing is just as expensive here as it is there
fickle hatch
My friend in Germany went to the hospital due to a panic attack, got help, it was hardly serious and it didn't cost her nothing, but she was immediately treated well
hybrid phoenix
Yup
fickle hatch
Imagine doing that in the US
hybrid phoenix
One reason I never intend to go move to the US
fickle hatch
I don't think even with a 200k salary you'd be considering that xD
hybrid phoenix
200k maaaybe
But I'd be saving as much as I could and living cheaply so I could gtfo asap
But just buy a nice house somewhere else 😛
fickle hatch
I don't think you'd want to spend what, $2000 min just to see the doctor and have him give you a metaphorical hug to make you feel better in the head
shut tree
dutch health ensurance with travel plan
lilac walrus
50k is totally achievable within the EU
hybrid phoenix
50k is, but from what I've seen that's where things start topping out
flat gazelle
Nobody tell my employer!
hybrid phoenix
Guess I'm wrong
flat gazelle
It depends on where you are. EU is a big place with quite a range.
hybrid phoenix
You're in Scandinavia though, where I expected wages to be lower than other places, though
Well, not lower
But more
Uh
More tax on the employer-side
So less likelyhood of very high wages
flat gazelle
Yet here we are 😛
lilac walrus
remuneration tends to be somewhat proportional to demand
if you have valuable skills and/or experience, pay-packets start to climb quite quickly
game dev pay for people in the trenches tends to cap out closer to the 70k mark
hybrid phoenix
I thought I was making a lot already 😛
glossy sorrel
if you wish to become a game designer/director, what are some skill sets/tools that are good to have under your belt?
nova tartan
Depending on the work split, director requires some degree of project management skills, and lots of experience before you get to be in charge. Can you coordinate art, programming, music, animations, marketing to make a professional end product on time, high quality, and within budget?
trail leaf
My definition of a game designer is more about designing the core systems of how the game will function and what the mechanics are going to be. How does everything fit together so to speak.
Thus for me, it is more about good writing skills and being able to explain concepts and designs for others to implement.