#career-chat | Unreal Source | Page 72

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:43 PM

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the point is you wanna consider your team structure in relation to what each individual does, not whether or not they need to managed

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a person isn't a zergling, they don't need overlords to manage them necessarily

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:43 PM

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What is the purpose of management in your eyes @tidal moth ?

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:44 PM

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grease between the cogs

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point of contact

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production scheduling, although I hold that each person should be self managing in this regard

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:45 PM

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To me, the purpose of management is a structure of transferring information up and down in a centralized way, where a small set of people who steer the work can command thousands of people and receive feedback from them (NOT an enforcement structure!), so yeah, I agree with your sentiment

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:45 PM

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decision maker/tie breaker

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yeah it's not much different from software development, but again, keeping in mind that there is a possibility that people for the most part can self manage

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:46 PM

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I think giving people the freedom to self manage is pretty important, yeah

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:46 PM

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it also frees a load because stuff like planning production schedules becomes a team effort, not the effort a single person

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or a meeting between leads

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:47 PM

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Ultimately, I think all your immediate manager should do is ask everyone on your team your feedback (he would put it together into a concise report and give it to his own manager) and convey you direction that he gets from above

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:47 PM

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well yes but you're assuming that there is an "above"

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:47 PM

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But being in such position puts you into some power and a lot of people like to exercise power over others 😦

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:47 PM

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in a team of <12 people there may not be

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:48 PM

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I think there should be one manager who has a person above them even in a tiny team

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:48 PM

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so is the inverse then true as well? that a manager should not exist if there is nobody above them?

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:49 PM

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Yeah

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In a small team, everyone will do a lot of varied tasks, but I think that even if everyone is given freedom to self-manage, there should be one manager and one director/CEO/lead/evangelist/idk who that manager responds to

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:49 PM

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then I a gree

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:49 PM

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And this manager isn't supposed to make people work, he is just the person who lets the guy above him to focus on more high-level planning

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:50 PM

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again I think beneath a certain threshold having those people only gives marginal benefits at best

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:50 PM

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It's just my personal experience so far - giving people specific tasks and making tasks for people seem two very orthogonal kinds of jobs to me

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:51 PM

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that's already more structure than I'd assume smaller teams do

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:51 PM

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Like, I'm totally into planning and making sure we have every emergency option for everything, we have our shit together, we know what we have in the project and where it is, but I find that conveying this information to even a small team of 5-7 people is kind of an overhead for me I don't want

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:51 PM

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planning is overhead

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:51 PM

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Luckily for me, my business partner takes up that aspect and he acts as the manager

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:51 PM

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but like I said, it is entirely possible to do without

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having a strong direction can be enough

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:52 PM

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I mean like, day to day overheads. Stuff that prevents me from doing my work. I wouldn't be able to keep our train sim project progressing forward (even if slowly) for all these years without a sense that we're actually doing something serious and professional 😄

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:52 PM

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especially with veteran people

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:52 PM

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Yeah, strong direction is a nice way to put it

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:53 PM

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as for tracking progression, that is something I consider entirely different from planning

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:53 PM

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This is the way we evolved, not like the only way. Still, I think that any sort of manager-less situation you might be imagining has an implicit "manager-like" person anyway 😄

flat gazelle Nov 19, 2019, 9:53 PM

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I need my production peeps! Ain't nobody got time to hunt info down.

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:53 PM

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but again something that can be managed on a weekly basis

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@fickle hatch life is a self balancing system, a manager will arise if there is need for it 🤔

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:54 PM

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True. We didn't decide that I'm gonna be the person above and my partner will be the manager

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:54 PM

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at least if you're dealing with again, competent people

fickle hatch Nov 19, 2019, 9:54 PM

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We just sorta evolved that over time

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:55 PM

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@flat gazelle but at what cost

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na for real though, I've said before it depends on team size and competence

flat gazelle Nov 19, 2019, 9:56 PM

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Production assistants/Jira and confluence wranglers

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 9:58 PM

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ugh on a side note it's quiet today in the other channels and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms of not helping out

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#humblebrag

bronze dew Nov 19, 2019, 10:01 PM

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know speedtree well ? 😛

tidal moth Nov 19, 2019, 10:01 PM

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nah I do design and BP

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aka the fun stuff

bronze dew Nov 19, 2019, 10:01 PM

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.>

nova tartan Nov 20, 2019, 6:09 AM

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On the topic of management
I've worked for years in a mostly flat org structure for software development, that is now a little bit more tiered because the company is bigger.
It can be fun but there is always "the boring work" that self management will never ever get done
managers are important for making sure people do the boring work as well as the fun work
Things like making sure a task is not just done and working, but is it tested properly? Is it documented? Did you do all the little extra things that aren't really fun?
And then there is just making sure everyone is working towards the right priorities. People get stuck in local maxima very easily and can waste hundreds of hours on low priority stuff because they have a narrow view.

lilac walrus Nov 20, 2019, 9:48 AM

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I find the best way to keep subordinates happy to is give them the fun work and do the drudgery yourself

flat gazelle Nov 20, 2019, 10:03 AM

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In moderation. I have overdone that in the past

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Not only does it kill your own morale, but the subordinates can read the situation wrong

tidal moth Nov 20, 2019, 10:55 AM

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@nova tartan I don't disagree, but again I think there is a threshold. I wouldn't hire a manager if it was a 2 man team for instance. It also depends on the structure that are put into place. I see a lot of people here keep mentioning JIRA and confluence, but keep in mind that teams exist that use neither of these, and where updating them is just needless overhead when perhaps the direction of the project is clear enough. I'm not saying cut managers, I'm saying use them when there's a need for them.

daring parrot Nov 20, 2019, 2:16 PM

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@flat gazelle I had a boss that would take on work he viewed as boring.... except it was the shit I was dying to work on 😂 took a while to clear that miscommunication up, but I 100% thought he was hoarding the goodies

flat gazelle Nov 20, 2019, 2:42 PM

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Not only that, but the team can take offense that you think thye need protecting.

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Let them decide

lilac walrus Nov 20, 2019, 2:55 PM

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haha

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everyone's definition of fun stuff is different, it's why you've got to know your folks and know your tasks (and try to make sure people get the ones they want, if possible)

tidal moth Nov 20, 2019, 3:06 PM

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you mean, actually being nice to your subordinates?

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surely that will never work in the real world

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*/s

vocal meadow Nov 20, 2019, 5:29 PM

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Minions or subordinates?

ember walrus Nov 21, 2019, 3:14 AM

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I have a question. Is it worth applying to studios you don't think you're good enough? I'd for now perfer to stay as a freelancer, as I'm still learning, but the stability of having a somewhat constant employment sounds tempting as well. I consider myself not good enough for studios, as I only do one thign so far and have 0 clue how it intergrates other than my clients telling me "do this this certain way".
TL;DR is there any downsides to sending an application to a studio that's hiring if you're 99% sure you're not good enoug, but have plans to apply again in the future? Does applying twice not look professional?
Here is my portfolio and some other works, if that makes the answers easyer.
https://www.artstation.com/zigastrmsek
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/613326963536560138/646901101286916107/unknown.png

ArtStation

Žiga Strmšek

Noob freelance wannabe (Open to commisions/ contracts)

daring parrot Nov 21, 2019, 3:17 AM

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What's the worst that can happen?

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What's the likely thing to happen? (Hint: it's interview practice to get you confidently applying to future jobs)

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What's the best thing that can happen?

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Some companies will have a minimum waiting period before applications will be reconsidered, something like 6 months to a year

ember walrus Nov 21, 2019, 3:27 AM

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📎 KuX6aVra3j.gif

bronze dew Nov 21, 2019, 4:07 AM

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one thing to consider is this... if they don't know you exist... they can't hire you

hardy river Nov 21, 2019, 4:23 PM

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Hey everyone!
I'm a grad student and my courses are not at all related to game dev. However I am interested in making a career where Unreal Engine is used. Since it is also used in fields other than game dev, what are the options that I have so as to prepare myself for future jobs? Apart from learning the engine, what other online courses I can follow for better chances?
I mostly learn using YouTube tutorials. Is it better if I do a University course focusing on game development? If yes, can I get courses where they focus on UE instead of other game engines(most of them seems to use unity)?
Personally, I am more interested in the use of UE in industries for different purposes compared to the gaming industry. What are the companies I can target which focuses on this aspect?

Sorry for the long query. It would be really helpful if you guys can point me towards the right direction.

nova tartan Nov 21, 2019, 4:49 PM

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What is your field of study?
Game require art, music, animation, programming, marketing(this one is probably out since you want to use ue4)
What core aspects of game creation could you contribute to a team?
I don't know much about what UE4 is used for outside of game development, maybe visual tech demos stuff? In which case 3D modelling is probably what you want?

static belfry Nov 22, 2019, 12:19 AM

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https://twitter.com/Invertednormals/status/1197622299236528128

Matt Charlesworth (@Invertednormals)

Now seems like a good time to mention that Valve is always hiring.
Our entire art team on HL:Alyx is maybe 20 people? If you like making a difference, you should maybe head on over here https://t.co/4Y89kX7h9n
If you are great at what you do, we want to speak to you.

Likes

118

west sonnet Nov 22, 2019, 12:22 AM

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That’s unheard of. Valve doesn’t take applications for their development team. They invite you instead

lilac walrus Nov 22, 2019, 1:45 AM

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people don't really want to work there any more

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who wants to never ship a product?

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Alyx might at least change that a bit, we'll see

flat gazelle Nov 22, 2019, 10:15 AM

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<@&213101288538374145> There are Bots about

spice dagger Nov 22, 2019, 10:18 AM

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👍

mental ruin Nov 22, 2019, 1:08 PM

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Anyone got any advice on approaching a smaller indie studio to see if they'd be interested in working with me? I thought some published work, however small, would be a great addition to my portfolio, and it'd be really cool to collaborate on their current project in particular.

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I want to be honest with them, and need a way to say that though I'd rather be paid (obviously), I'd also consider an internship of some sort if they couldn't afford it.
That's a tricky subject though and requires total transparency on both sides.

daring parrot Nov 22, 2019, 1:21 PM

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If US, they're not going to want to run afoul of labor laws by having unpaid (useful) interns

mental ruin Nov 22, 2019, 1:57 PM

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Hmm okay. The studio is EU. I swear I've seen companies like DICE offer unpaid internships before? But that seemed to be a post-grad sort of scheme.

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I'll reach out and see what they say. Thanks!

nova tartan Nov 22, 2019, 3:56 PM

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IIRC there are very specific definitions of what qualifies as an unpaid internship, so companies have to be very careful on what they ask interns to do

flat gazelle Nov 22, 2019, 3:59 PM

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I mentored unpaid Interns at DICE as part of their final year of education.

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But it's a bit different in Sweden as education is free and you get a small amount of money to study. There aren't really expectations on the Intern to deliver anything. He's there to learn. So for the company it's a net loss to not hire them afterwards as a senior has to spend time on mentoring and not production. I can't remember the exact amount of months but an intern that gets hired as a junior takes X number of months to be a net gain for the company. I only mentored two of them and both were hired by the end.

honest cipher Nov 22, 2019, 4:36 PM

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in spain, we use unpaid interns as totally-not-slave-labor XD

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its quite common to see teams of a couple senior-ish programmers and a hoard of interns

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ive even seen some truly funny shit like a entire team made of interns. All unpaid except the "senior intern" who was the boss of the team of 10

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in a bank

ashen lynx Nov 22, 2019, 5:03 PM

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Don't take unpaid internships, lads. You are hurting yourself and others.

flat gazelle Nov 22, 2019, 5:06 PM

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I disagree

plucky hatch Nov 22, 2019, 5:06 PM

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Unpaid internship. Try to avoid.
But in certain cases, they can definitely be an opportunity to get your foot in.

flat gazelle Nov 22, 2019, 5:07 PM

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Both of my mentees have done pretty well. I still work with one of them five years later and the other is at Blizzard. Neither of them had a reel good enough for a junior spot.

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Having to pay someone at that level as well as sacrifice a seniors time would make no sense for a company as theres no return. The artists would instead have been unemployed until they could improve enough to get hired. This went A LOT faster in a real production environment.

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I'd say, if you take an unpaid internship, take one that's made to improve you. Don't take a free labour internship

daring parrot Nov 22, 2019, 5:11 PM

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in general I'd agree -- with never taking unpaid internships --, but this industry is a bit different

flat gazelle Nov 22, 2019, 5:11 PM

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My current company doesn't accept interns as it's too expensive.

ashen lynx Nov 22, 2019, 5:31 PM

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I'd say, if you take an unpaid internship, take one that's made to improve you. Don't take a free labour internship Yeah, that wording is much better than mine. It is hard to imagine cheap labour internship in a specialized field, but generic art and especially if it is a minor support studio, those are very real and amount of aspiring employees burnt by it is only going to grow.

flat gazelle Nov 22, 2019, 5:32 PM

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Yep, I am in no way denying that.

plucky hatch Nov 22, 2019, 5:34 PM

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Who can afford it? lol

flat gazelle Nov 22, 2019, 5:34 PM

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Dice as a counter example doesn't accept an intern if there isn't a strong probability of it turning into a job at the end. See it as a mutually beneficial testrun. The intern gets actual production experience and mentoring while the company can take a low cost risk on someone.

errant pine Nov 23, 2019, 2:02 PM

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https://www.artstation.com/cameroncasey Hello I have been applying for environment/modeling jobs all over and have only had 3 places seem interested in hiring me so far. (its only been a week since I applied everywhere) One will hopefully work out but I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me to improve my chances at getting hired in the future. I would really appreciate it. Thank you!

ArtStation

Cameron Casey

3D Environment Artist

west sonnet Nov 23, 2019, 2:05 PM

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I would like to congratulate you in getting 3 hits in only a week. Lovely work

errant pine Nov 23, 2019, 2:05 PM

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Thank you High I appreciate it

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 9:06 AM

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Hi guys,

I am a Game Designer/Developer that graduated with a bachelors in Game Development(Game Design) around 1.5 years ago [god even writing that down is pretty disappointing]. Its been really hard as I'm sure you all know. I have resorted to doing a lot of ArchViz work to make ends meet which I am grateful for of course. I think I have sent around 90-110 applications since I've graduated, the usual response is: We found someone that is a better fit for the role and/or we would like to have someone with more experience onboard. When applying for internships I either receive: We are looking for students for this internship and/or we would like to have someone with more experience onboard.
I don't understand what I have to do to obtain more idk commercial experience. I'd travel across the world [at my own expense] and work absolutely for free given the opportunity. I understand its important to create your own projects which I have been trying to do.

Do any of you guys have tips/advice for a junior Game Designer/Developer to get his foot in the industry? Or know of websites where people can collaborate and create a product? I've heard crowdforge is quite good .

I apologize if this post sounds whiny/pathetic in anyway. I'm just beginning to lose hope and would really appreciate any advice.

lilac walrus Nov 25, 2019, 9:14 AM

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Your problem is that there are literally thousands of other applicants, and that a degree adds little value to your application - you don't necessarily need commercial experience to get your foot in the door, but you will want to have finished games (far beyond what you've completed for your degree) in your portfolio that you can talk about. The other issue may be the jobs you're applying for; 'Game Designer' isn't usually a junior level position (although Junior and Associate positions do sometimes pop up) and as such I wouldn't expect someone applying for that role to have experience.

As an aside, you may want to clarify what designer / developer means, because these are usually two different fields of expertise.

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 9:19 AM

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@lilac walrus thanks for the reply.

The fact that a degree adds little value to my application is quite disappointing.

I have only applied for junior level jobs as well as internships.

Well I have been designing games for the past 3 years and for the past 2 years I've been programming them too.

But yeah it seems I should just be making more games that are complete. What would you consider to be more valuable: Numerous small games or a couple large scale games (assuming the quality of the game is similar)?

lilac walrus Nov 25, 2019, 9:22 AM

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the scale of the game is less important, but the more polished the better

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you will be more likely to complete and polish a smaller project, of course

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but yeah, I'm afraid the degree has little to no value - to put things in perspective, in the UK there are 2-3000 games graduates every year

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the UK games industry has something like 10,000 full time positions available, the majority of which are of course occupied, and only a fraction of those that are open are going to be suitable for a junior

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competition to get your foot in the door is absolutely fierce as a result - the vast majority (95%+) of games graduates never actually end up working in games

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 9:58 AM

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Damn. Yeah I mean, I knew what I was getting myself into. I just thought because I was willing to do it for free that I'd at least get interviews. But I barely make it past the first application email.
Thanks tho for the advice. Making smaller polished games is what I'll be aiming for from now on!

vocal meadow Nov 25, 2019, 10:02 AM

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You don’t sound whiny. That’s a lot of applications but keep applying as you build portfolio. School hopefully still prepared you. Once you get a foot in it’ll likely be smooth sailing.
Good to hear the archviz is viable and your still looking to get into games.
If you do go on the larger scale, Kickstarter it or something. Even if it doesn’t get funding you will show up as a blip on multiple peoples radar

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 10:05 AM

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@vocal meadow Thanks a lot for the encouraging words. Games is undeniably my passion so I couldn't give up on it . Yeah true crowdfunding could definitely be an option. Thanks again for the advice 👍

lilac walrus Nov 25, 2019, 10:11 AM

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I wouldn't crowdfund anything without knowing what you're getting into

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doing such a thing is a legal can of worms that can potentially land you in trouble

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the point at which you're crowdfunding things, is the point at which you're running a business, with everything that entails

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 10:15 AM

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Hmm yeah. Definitely have to do tons of research beforehand

halcyon oriole Nov 25, 2019, 10:45 AM

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I do wonder how people manage to get arch-viz

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gigs

lilac walrus Nov 25, 2019, 10:49 AM

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there's always plenty of short-term arch-viz work to go around

halcyon oriole Nov 25, 2019, 10:50 AM

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I'd like to potentially get into that as a side thing

plucky hatch Nov 25, 2019, 11:16 AM

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@marsh stream
I dont agree with a need to show off finished game projects.

However, you would need to have ways to prove that you are competent at creating design documents. Have a way to show that you understand how to make games fun. Show that you are competent with Unity C# to script games or scripting with Unreal Engine 4 Blueprint. A youtube channel could help you show off your skills. Youtube channels such as ''Virtus Learning Hub / Creative Tutorials'' by example.

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I don't know many designers that started off their careers with finished projects.
They were more like... Game Reviewers, D&D addicts, etc.

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But today, with UE4 and Unity, game dev is so much more accessible.

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How many people can use blueprint now?
What makes you a designer worth hiring?

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 11:34 AM

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@plucky hatch Thank you so much for the detailed reply. I see. Well I was thinking just creating very small polished fun mini-games to improve both my game design skills as well as my programming skills. Aiming to do so in both Unity and UE. Making game reviews is actually such a good idea...I cant believe I haven't thought about that. But makes so much sense

Honest self-analysis would be that I am a mediocre developer (technical skills that is) but what I lack in that I personally believe I make for in attitude and emotional intelligence (this is a combined mixture people's opinions and my own). I'll definitely focus on making myself stand out as opposed to 'being as good as everyone else'

plucky hatch Nov 25, 2019, 11:36 AM

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Game designer jobs tend to be difficult to get for a wide variety of reasons. It is easier to start off as a level designer.

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Game designer jobs, by default, is more senior.

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More risk for the company.

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You also need to target the needs of specific companies.

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There are UE4 centric devs. Others with Unity. Others doing only FPS games or RPGs, etc.

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 11:43 AM

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I see. I guess level design always felt more intimidating that GD. Maybe because GD was something I studied for.

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So targeting a genre, probably one I enjoying playing, is a good idea? I was worried that would be limiting :/

tidal moth Nov 25, 2019, 11:43 AM

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GD is way more difficult due to the levels of abstraction and edge cases

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you need big math brains to do proper GD

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 11:46 AM

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Yeah true

timid thunder Nov 25, 2019, 11:55 AM

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Is there a chance that I'll get into internship if I'm from faraway country?

lilac walrus Nov 25, 2019, 12:05 PM

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it's quite unlikely

plucky hatch Nov 25, 2019, 12:19 PM

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There is also an increasing demand for F2P designers at the moment

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And some studios need R&D designers

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 12:23 PM

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Yeah true. I was speaking to someone that worked at Ubisoft and he said the same thing. The only way to acquire such knowledge (f2p) would be to just read/research and play free-to-play games?

tidal moth Nov 25, 2019, 12:23 PM

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that's the most common approach

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but nobody's stopping you from entering a buddhist monastery for a couple years to meditate on the issue until you find the same knowledge

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it might just be harder to prove that way

regal folio Nov 25, 2019, 12:30 PM

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What is edge cases?

tidal moth Nov 25, 2019, 12:33 PM

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if you make a general rule, edge cases are the exceptions where the rule won't work usually

plucky hatch Nov 25, 2019, 12:42 PM

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@marsh stream
Where did you apply

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And... what games do you like to play? 🤣

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 12:44 PM

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Mainly game companies/studios in Europe as I have a European passport [thought that'd increase my chances due to the lack of visa issues]. Lots in germany (I speak german), a couple in the netherlands, others across EU. Although I live in Dubai atm.
Its hard to see. Im not very consistent 😕 I play a couple FPSes, a couple turn based games, 1 sports game, and some linear narrative based games i LOVE others dont connect with me

plucky hatch Nov 25, 2019, 12:46 PM

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Where do you see yourself working as a designer?

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 12:46 PM

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As in what type of designer?

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or literally where? : P

plucky hatch Nov 25, 2019, 12:47 PM

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Platform, project size or duration, genres

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indie, aaa, mobile

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VR?

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 12:50 PM

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Its kinda hard to answer mainly due to my lack of experience. So I dont know what its like. But

PC/Console, Indie(mainly because I like being hands on and would love to learn more about other departments [how they function] and I feel AAA wouldnt allow that to happen), genre: FPS,TPS, Puzzle, Adventure

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despite the popularity of mobile, its just been an area I've had no interest in :/

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as for VR, I've never tried it. I think it could be very interesting but because of the market I've never really considered it...

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btw i do appreciate the time u've taken to talk to me about this

plucky hatch Nov 25, 2019, 12:53 PM

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Lot of people overestimate how different mobile games are.

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It is an excellent way to enter the industry.

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 12:53 PM

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Because its easier than PC or because there are just more opportunities out there? both? : P

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I've also heard the mobile work environment is less intense and 'healthier'

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but i only heard that from 1 person working in the industry

tidal moth Nov 25, 2019, 12:55 PM

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same people exist in both parts of the industry

plucky hatch Nov 25, 2019, 12:56 PM

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Mobile games take less time to make.
Dont expect to work 4 years on it.

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4 years when you dont like much the project is a long time

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you wont always work on what you are most passionate about

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the company has its own agenda

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 1:01 PM

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Yeah I see. Maybe its something I should reconsider. Do more research on. Especially in regards to F2P

regal folio Nov 25, 2019, 1:06 PM

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@tidal moth i see. Thanks.

lilac walrus Nov 25, 2019, 1:12 PM

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mobile can be an entry point into the industry

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but it is much less common for designers to move between mobile and other parts of the industry

tidal moth Nov 25, 2019, 2:20 PM

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agreed, it's likely you'll stay in the lane you choose

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also because it seems AAA studios are becoming more limited

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at least until you reach high seniority, by which time you may get drafted as a monetization designer

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 2:41 PM

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Jeez....so many suggestions. Consequences to each decision. Really tough to choose a path...

plucky hatch Nov 25, 2019, 2:48 PM

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Hey guys, who would you guys recommend for an investment for e.g a game

tidal moth Nov 25, 2019, 2:55 PM

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a publisher

plucky hatch Nov 25, 2019, 3:04 PM

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Depends. Here we have Mobile, AAA and indie studios.

Designers move between all 3 all the time.

plucky hatch Nov 25, 2019, 5:16 PM

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@marsh stream
Game design is difficult to hire for.
Dont take the rejection too personal.
Companies often try to find people with like 7+ years of xp thinking it is a safer bet than hiring someone who might have little to no experience, but was born for the job.

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Just keep applying, work on your stuff, boost portfolio, build a youtube channel, build your network, etc. Surround yourself with people you want to work with.

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I know it is not great to hear.
But those who wont give up... are the ones that will get the jobs.

marsh stream Nov 25, 2019, 5:34 PM

#

@plucky hatch Yeah understood. I will definitely take that advice. Just have to keep going and grow my portfolio and my skills . Thanks again 👍

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 5:31 PM

#

how can I sort of find people who want to work with me/work with them and sorta start a small team

#

I have so many ideas but I just cant make anything good because its just me

pastel estuary Nov 26, 2019, 5:34 PM

#

#looking-for-talent :p

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 5:35 PM

#

but isnt that like just for asking someone to make one thing and thats it like a one-time job

#

tbh Im almost ready to give up the ambition of gamedev, its just too stressful and I dont stand a chance making anything great

fickle hatch Nov 26, 2019, 5:39 PM

#

@inland pond okay, but you could still have fun making some simple games for yourself lol

#

You know you don't HAVE to make games for a living

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 5:39 PM

#

Ive been trying

#

its hell

#

no Im not even expecting to actually make money

fickle hatch Nov 26, 2019, 5:40 PM

#

Find some way to enjoy it, go back a few steps

#

Make a mod instead of a full game

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 5:40 PM

#

I just want to make my ideas a reality but I dont have the ability

#

mod for what? I literally only know ue4 blueprints I cant "code" unless that counts

fickle hatch Nov 26, 2019, 5:42 PM

#

Mod for your favorite game, of course

#

Might even start with an asset-only mod, make some levels, basic level blueprints etc

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 5:43 PM

#

I remember I really wanted to mod my favourite ue4 game but - how

#

its not like you can just open the game in ue4 editor

fickle hatch Nov 26, 2019, 5:59 PM

#

Maybe you can

#

I haven't done any UE4 modding

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 6:01 PM

#

but then anyone could just steal games and publish them as their own easily...

daring parrot Nov 26, 2019, 6:03 PM

#

that's pretty much how (select) UE4 modding works

#

https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/browse?q=mod&sortBy=RELEASE_DATE&sortDir=DESC

fickle hatch Nov 26, 2019, 6:05 PM

#

@inland pond I mean, literally nothing but the legal repercussions stop you from doing that already dude

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 6:05 PM

#

I never knew this was possible

fickle hatch Nov 26, 2019, 6:05 PM

#

You can go and publish Skyrim on Steam under your name - nothing will stop you until you get taken down like a minute later

#

And probably they won't let you use steamworks ever again 😄

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 6:05 PM

#

man I always wanted to mod this one game

fickle hatch Nov 26, 2019, 6:06 PM

#

But people HAVE stolen and re-published small games before

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 6:06 PM

#

but wouldnt you have to know how to do some complicated process of opening it

#

either way Ive just always wanted to make my own games like all my life

#

and its just too fuckin hard

#

its been my dream except I CANT

fickle hatch Nov 26, 2019, 6:07 PM

#

It will get easier with practice

#

Try RPG Maker and the likes for a simpler start

barren lotus Nov 26, 2019, 6:09 PM

#

Start small and set yourself do-able goals, you're not going to make Call of Duty or Fortnite right out of the gate.

Also download as many UE4 tutorial projects from Epic in launcher Learn area, lots of free templates that do a bunch of different things you can reverse engineer to see how they did it.

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 6:09 PM

#

I literally dont even know programming

#

I know a bunch of stuff with blueprints but thats it

#

I can hardly apply this anywhere else

fickle hatch Nov 26, 2019, 6:10 PM

#

You could literally learn it starting with simple apps that run in a console window

barren lotus Nov 26, 2019, 6:12 PM

#

You can get pretty far with blueprints and make a whole game, I think I recall an interview that said PUBG initial release was mostly blueprints.

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 6:12 PM

#

yeah thats what I was hoping

#

I dont really want to learn text coding because what little I do know I find very stressful from the experience

fickle hatch Nov 26, 2019, 6:25 PM

#

You need to get used to it

#

By doing it for a while

#

Even if you're going to be using primarily blueprints

#

It's not the exact skill of text coding that I'd suggest you to learn, but the general framework of thinking on how to program a computer

pastel estuary Nov 26, 2019, 6:32 PM

#

@inland pond unless its you, here is someone who wants to work with others.
https://www.reddit.com/r/unrealengine/comments/e21sm6/hello_im_looking_for_someone_thats_intrested_to/

Hello I'm looking for someone that's intrested to make a game with me!

Hello I'm 14 years old and working on a game. I hope anyone could help me and make an OpenWorld game with dragons griffins and more. If you are...

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 10:05 PM

#

I might actually just do that same thing, randomly make a post asking if anyone wants to help

#

I really want to find people

daring parrot Nov 26, 2019, 10:24 PM

#

a game jam might be a good place to find people to work with and test that you actually work together well wink wink

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 10:48 PM

#

I tried looking at gamejams once, it kinda overwhelmed me like I didnt know where to start, all of them looked way beyond my ability

digital gate Nov 26, 2019, 11:02 PM

#

It's the place to start. I'd be willing to bet they're more within your grasp than a managing a full on team on a hobbyist project.

#

You've got a well defined timeline, will have a prompt, and there's quite a low floor for quality expectations. You're more likely to have feedback on your work from others outside your team as well

#

If you truly don't want to jam yet, maybe take a step back and try some learning projects. Plop $10 for a udemy course, or find a good YouTube series (that'll be super hard). Clone pong.

Jam when you're ready.

daring parrot Nov 26, 2019, 11:06 PM

#

speaking of courses

#

https://www.humblebundle.com/software/unreal-engine-game-development-software has a very solid series of Unreal courses

#

(specifically Unreal C++ Training Course at the $20 tier)

#

Starting with text programming just enough to get the hang of C++ and moving straight into Unreal after the basics

#

I haven't perosnally taken the Unreal Blueprint Training Course, but I'm sure it'd be just as quality

inland pond Nov 26, 2019, 11:32 PM

#

thanks for the advice but I realise Im probably unhelpable because I just dont think Im made for this

#

I wish I never tried gamedev tbh

daring parrot Nov 26, 2019, 11:43 PM

#

have you tried following a course start to end?

#

I really really recommend it before giving up

#

don't feel bad if you're just following directions for a while until you start to see where your own customizations can be made

digital gate Nov 26, 2019, 11:48 PM

#

Yeah, definitely at least make something playable

west sonnet Nov 27, 2019, 12:25 AM

#

#looking-for-talent

sleek sparrow Nov 27, 2019, 12:19 PM

#

does anybody doing an RTS real time strategy game and need some help?

tidal moth Nov 27, 2019, 12:23 PM

#

@sleek sparrow #looking-for-work

inland pond Nov 27, 2019, 5:13 PM

#

tbh I just dont think I even have it in me, because even the simplest games need SOME form of design and shit and I just cannot bring myself to it at this point

fickle hatch Nov 27, 2019, 5:36 PM

#

@inland pond you could fulfill other roles in gamedev

#

Like uhhh try doing tech artist stuff, level design and such or bringing coffee and mail

inland pond Nov 27, 2019, 5:41 PM

#

level design is super hard

#

I mean all of it is

#

but thats increased when you have to do it all yourself

tidal moth Nov 27, 2019, 5:56 PM

#

I mean if he doesn't want to I don't feel like there's a reason to push him

inland pond Nov 27, 2019, 6:14 PM

#

?

tidal moth Nov 27, 2019, 6:18 PM

#

if you're not feeling it then it's also ok to not do gamedev

inland pond Nov 27, 2019, 7:14 PM

#

but its always been my dream

#

Id feel bloody empty and lost without it

#

god its like a drug

karmic kayak Nov 27, 2019, 7:36 PM

#

that makes not much sense imho

west sonnet Nov 27, 2019, 7:53 PM

#

What's self doubt going to do for you?

hybrid phoenix Nov 27, 2019, 8:04 PM

#

its hell

#

but its always been my dream

#

Yeah I don't think you'll be losing much if you don't do gamedev

#

Maybe find something else to fill your time with that doesn't trigger crippling depression

molten mason Nov 27, 2019, 9:08 PM

#

speaking of teams reddit has this subreddit just for mostly people with no experience come together to make something
https://www.reddit.com/r/INAT/

I Need a Team: Developers Collaboration! • r/INAT

A subreddit created to bring together like-minded creatives for the purpose of collaboration, networking, and gaining experience in team-based...

pastel estuary Nov 27, 2019, 9:08 PM

#

@molten mason can you write that all in one post so i can pin it?

#

else I need to pin two

molten mason Nov 27, 2019, 9:09 PM

#

did it work?

pastel estuary Nov 27, 2019, 9:09 PM

#

aye

#

thank you

molten mason Nov 27, 2019, 9:10 PM

#

glad to help

pastel estuary Nov 27, 2019, 9:10 PM

#

@flat gazelle ruined the word glad for me.

flat gazelle Nov 27, 2019, 9:19 PM

#

:(

pastel estuary Nov 27, 2019, 9:24 PM

#

lol

#

or, "improved" upon it

plucky hatch Nov 27, 2019, 10:06 PM

#

level design is hard if you really really want to create quality, something smart. it is always something that connaisseurs appreciate. but the irony is those levels are often not very popular.

nova tartan Nov 27, 2019, 10:13 PM

#

that's fine if your audience is the dozen people who care deeply about clever level design

fickle hatch Nov 27, 2019, 10:14 PM

#

What if I want to only design something crappy and dumb

plucky hatch Nov 27, 2019, 10:14 PM

#

The point is you need someone who can do both.

#

not too casual or not too advanced

fickle hatch Nov 27, 2019, 10:16 PM

#

I don't have a hardcore tunnel vision, but I definitely have a hardcore vision of tunnels

plucky hatch Nov 27, 2019, 10:16 PM

#

lol

fickle hatch Nov 27, 2019, 10:17 PM

#

If you are going to be making tunnels, better highlight me before you make silly mistakes 😄

plucky hatch Nov 27, 2019, 10:17 PM

#

XD

#

fixed

#

🤣

fickle hatch Nov 28, 2019, 1:30 AM

#

A good career start

cunning inlet Nov 28, 2019, 3:14 AM

#

Hi, where does one post for recruiting, anyone have a link?

daring parrot Nov 28, 2019, 3:15 AM

#

#looking-for-talent

cunning inlet Nov 28, 2019, 3:15 AM

#

Yeah, but how do you post on it

daring parrot Nov 28, 2019, 3:16 AM

#

Or nab some talented people from #looking-for-work malfPOG

cunning inlet Nov 28, 2019, 3:16 AM

#

Isn't there a forum somewhere?

daring parrot Nov 28, 2019, 3:17 AM

#

See pinned (in the respective #looking-for-* channel)

cunning inlet Nov 28, 2019, 3:38 AM

#

Thanks for the sub redit

#

Is there a command to post in looking for talent?

#

Ok I figured it out, it's relaying the forum

daring parrot Nov 28, 2019, 4:14 AM

#

🤔

#

they're separate but often have overlap

#

see the pinned messages in the respective channels (not this one)

silver sequoia Nov 30, 2019, 8:19 AM

#

do people put project folders in their portfolio

plucky hatch Nov 30, 2019, 9:14 AM

#

Some people will hire you just based on your resume and the people during the interview will take a look, with you, at your portfolio.
''Surprise!'' if you don't have one.

#

Or dont have much

silver sequoia Nov 30, 2019, 11:17 AM

#

do they look at source code or just the finished builds

wispy spoke Nov 30, 2019, 4:16 PM

#

@silver sequoia whoever's looking at your portfolio will have a limited attention span, don't expect people to read your source code

#

A video and a list of projects and responsibilities you took on is much better suited

#

You have a limited amount of attention to make an impression, use it wisely

pastel estuary Nov 30, 2019, 4:20 PM

#

google: killer portfolio or portfolio killer. they are gdc talks with loads of good insight.

plucky hatch Nov 30, 2019, 4:45 PM

#

@silver sequoia yes we always look at the source code if there is any "AFTER" we saw everything else. If you have no source code to provide prepare for a test.

#

So source code is not the first thing we look at.

nova tartan Nov 30, 2019, 6:01 PM

#

I don't have time to look at much source code but I can usually get a pretty good idea on if someone knows how to do it with some questions and a quick programming question
There are devs that are already thinking on efficient solutions while others are struggling to even understand the problem

#

And then they spend 20 minutes going down the wrong path

#

some ask me to basically solve it for them through a series of questions

#

those people don't get hired

limber harbor Nov 30, 2019, 8:05 PM

#

am putting a portfolio together on instagram to try and get work experience from this indie game company near me, could anyone have a look please and tell me what you think. thank you https://www.instagram.com/ghost4dev/

Login • Instagram

Welcome back to Instagram. Sign in to check out what your friends, family & interests have been capturing & sharing around the world.

west sonnet Nov 30, 2019, 8:06 PM

#

I would use ArtStation first of all

#

Video recording from your phone is tacky

#

I have no idea what you specialize in. Character art? Environment art?

#

Would like more break down on what you are doing. Per display

#

You need better thumbnails. Hiring manager rarely take more than a passing glance, much less open individual entries

limber harbor Nov 30, 2019, 8:13 PM

#

i don't really specialize in anything, am in college rn doing game design, i love to do everything expect sound design

west sonnet Nov 30, 2019, 8:15 PM

#

Why would you be hired for x job when there’s another guy that specializes specially for x job?

#

Sell yourself. Why are you a worthwhile employee?

#

These are what you need to convey first and foremost

limber harbor Nov 30, 2019, 8:21 PM

#

alright

vocal meadow Nov 30, 2019, 8:24 PM

#

ArtStation is definitely more worthy for professional portfolios than instagram. Install OBS to screen capture properly

lapis vortex Nov 30, 2019, 9:19 PM

#

@limber harbor High Tide is right, you should figure out what you want to do in the industry. (note: There is no such thing as an idea guy). My recommendation is to choose between art and programming. and then specialize to game design later once you have some experience if you wish to do so.

plucky hatch Nov 30, 2019, 9:39 PM

#

That isnt a portfolio, just a bunch of random videos and images.

plucky hatch Nov 30, 2019, 10:04 PM

#

@limber harbor
2D/3D Concept Designer - Portfolio
https://www.artstation.com/vaughanling

Concept Artist - Portfolio
https://www.artstation.com/eddie

Environment Artist - Portfolio
https://www.artstation.com/scotthomer

Character Artist - Portfolio
https://www.artstation.com/fredericdaoust23

Material Artist - Portfolio
https://www.artstation.com/benwilson
https://www.artstation.com/jonathan_benainous
https://www.artstation.com/zahar_scherbov

Level Designer - Portfolio
"I give up... they all suck."

Game Designer - Portfolio
"Same..."

#

Most people in level design or game design show Blog Posts with a decription of what they did and just post in-game pictures.
That isn't a Level Design or Game Design portfolio.

#

Such portfolio should show Level Design Documents or Game Design Documents.
Show how things were designed. Show general plan of the map, where enemies are placed, how enemy waves are setup, how the loot was distributed, where the objectives are, etc.

#

📎 GWJKoPf.png

#

📎 6OSgLgZ.png

#

📎 OH2pqIc.png

#

Etc.

#

What enemy types are being used.
What special behaviors are enemies using during the level (enemy flips table, runs away afraid, etc.)

#

Aere there any locations where the player will drop down, unable to backtrack?

limber harbor Nov 30, 2019, 10:14 PM

#

U guys gotta remember I said work experience, I haven't done a lot of completed work. Am still in college. But thank you all for showing the right direction

plucky hatch Nov 30, 2019, 10:15 PM

#

It's important to understand the meaning of a ''portfolio''.

#

It's not a gallery of random stuff.

#

It's ''I am a professional in this field'' and ''here is my body of work''

limber harbor Nov 30, 2019, 10:15 PM

#

Ik but it's better then nothing if u get what I mean

plucky hatch Nov 30, 2019, 10:17 PM

#

Your portfolio should highlight your love, interests and skills.

limber harbor Nov 30, 2019, 10:17 PM

#

I will try and neaten it up

plucky hatch Nov 30, 2019, 10:18 PM

#

It should tell your employer, I only live for this. If you hire me for this very specific thing, I will do great work, will love my work and will not leave you to do other types of work

west sonnet Nov 30, 2019, 10:18 PM

#

It’s about quality not quantity mind you

plucky hatch Nov 30, 2019, 10:19 PM

#

Your current portfolio shows...
Concept art, rough 3d character modeling, some... ?? special effect Im not even sure, some C++ or Blueprint to do... I have no idea what you are trying to illutrate

#

It's a mess

#

It doesnt look like a portfolio, because it's more like a doodling gallery

#

📎 unknown.png

#

If you were an artist, I would have suggested you to make more concepts and 3D props/character for that same game theme. And step up the quality.
If you were trying to get jobs in VFX, then just show VFX and better VFX

vocal meadow Nov 30, 2019, 10:28 PM

#

Would also consider that a portfolio can work against you 悪霊. Being out there and visible is good so long as it's showing you in good light. Employer/contractor is gonna look for things that demonstrate your skill set, and cellphone captures on instagram may be a hard sell

west sonnet Nov 30, 2019, 10:28 PM

#

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=93_6P-hXFGY

YouTube

GDC

Killer Portfolio or Portfolio Killer 2019: Advice from Industry Ar...

In this 2019 GDC presentation, artists Greg Foertsch, Moby Francke, Gavin Goulden, Claire Hummel, Wyeth Johnson and Alison Kelly expose portfolio pitfalls, h...

▶ Play video

#

I’d say it’s an instant nope Pat

plucky hatch Nov 30, 2019, 10:30 PM

#

The ''portfolio'' should tell your employer.
"Yo... Im an expert. And I'm an expert in this. This is why you should hire me right away. I will be the expert in this area at your company.''

west sonnet Nov 30, 2019, 10:31 PM

#

There isn’t much that’s going to represent you nor will there be much time allotted by the viewer. Bad composition is one of the fastest ways to kill your chances.

plucky hatch Nov 30, 2019, 10:33 PM

#

My portfolio is a page that starts with a Summary, Work experience and then...
3 sections for Level Design / Programming / 3D (link to my artstation)

And even then... Ive seen director load the page... not scrolling down and asking me where my portfolio is

#

And then he clicks in other tabs at the top and he went anywhere else in the website that had nothing to do with my portfolio that was... well the first page he loaded

#

And ultimately, that was a bad choice on my part.

#

The portfolio should be in their face.
And there should be nowhere else to go other than ... directly see your portfolio

#

And your portfolio should be super clear

#

There should be a job theme

Environment art
Character modeling
Visual Effects
Level design
Etc

limber harbor Nov 30, 2019, 10:37 PM

#

alright taken notes, thank you people for ur time ❤️

plucky hatch Nov 30, 2019, 10:38 PM

#

That's currently my portfolio.
And, it needs more work. I mean, portfolio always need more work lol...
http://skilljutsu.com/views/portfolio.html

#

I even made changes that introduced a few visual issues on X page. And Im currently unable to fix. Still looking for fixes.

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 12:17 AM

#

But as I said. Every company or game studio works a bit differently.
Some studios are in AAA, others in mobile, others in VR, others in creating Arcade/Amusement park experiences, others in Military/Medical simulators, etc.
And the recruiters might not really know or understand what your job is, might not understand your portfolio either, etc.
You might get an interview, enter the meeting room and maybe the people in the room have not yet seen your portfolio. And they basically will look at it live during the interview.

#

If you are part of a big company, sometimes they do internally... some interviews for X position.
And you'll enter the room and they'll ask you...
"So you've been working here for 3 years. What projects did you work on? Let's look at your portfolio."

#

And you might think "You work here. Arent you supposed to have this information?"

#

It's like working in a studio space, your boss in is that room a few meters away. He summons you and ask who you are, what you are doing there and what have you done.
It's just weird.

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 12:29 AM

#

You are in ranting territory

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 12:33 AM

#

No. Just sharing that your portfolio isn't as valuable as you think it is depending on where you apply.
And people aren't necessarily going to look at it like you think they might do.

#

As simple as that

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 12:36 AM

#

You sound a bit all-knowing in nature though. portfolios are important

tacit siren Dec 1, 2019, 12:36 AM

#

imo, listing programming languages doesn't work with "more is better approach"

#

when i see a listing of 10 programming languages paired with 2 years programming in CV, i am ready to jump into a conclusion person in question doesn't know any of them to useful level

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 12:38 AM

#

Unless you look at the portfolio and the person shows example of those and access to source code...

tacit siren Dec 1, 2019, 12:38 AM

#

and that source code is good, true

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 12:39 AM

#

The hiring manager knows what that means?

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 12:39 AM

#

What was the original question anyway?

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 12:39 AM

#

They likely aren't going to ask a programmer to take time out to review a portfolio for authenticity

tacit siren Dec 1, 2019, 12:39 AM

#

but i will do that only if i am directly asked by my project lead

#

not if i am browsing for potentials

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 12:40 AM

#

am putting a portfolio together on instagram to try and get work experience from this indie game company near me, could anyone have a look please and tell me what you think. thank you
(it did drift quite a bit lol)

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 12:40 AM

#

If someone shows he/she used different programming languages and framework, you know that the person can adapt, learn and isn't just a grumpy 50 years old person unwilling to learn something new

#

(generalizing)

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 12:40 AM

#

Has not been my experience with people lol

tacit siren Dec 1, 2019, 12:41 AM

#

99% of the time its someone just listing languages he/she doesn't know

#

i had a QA tester application recently with 12 languages listed...

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 12:42 AM

#

I’m not crazy then. That was very random 😜

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 12:42 AM

#

Two hour later follow up lol

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 12:43 AM

#

@tacit siren
Oky, but what was his experiences with those languages?
is there anything else in Main Skills or Work Experience or Projects related to those 12 languages?

#

portfolio?

#

websites, games, windows apps

tacit siren Dec 1, 2019, 12:44 AM

#

thing is, i might had looked for a portfolio in that case if it was an application for a programming position

#

might

#

being an application for QA, it just went to discard pile

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 12:44 AM

#

They didn’t list any relevant qualifications?

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 12:45 AM

#

So... to learn coding isn't relevant to QA testing?

#

O_o

tacit siren Dec 1, 2019, 12:45 AM

#

my point is i generally don't have time to do a deep study if a person belongs to that 1% of people with diverse programming language knowledge

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 12:45 AM

#

No. It isn’t

tacit siren Dec 1, 2019, 12:45 AM

#

i have been programming for more then 15 years

#

and i'll list 3 languages

#

i dabbled in more

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 12:46 AM

#

What generally stands out for you Zlo? Out of curiosity

tacit siren Dec 1, 2019, 12:46 AM

#

but i can't really list them as proficiencies in good consience

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 12:46 AM

#

lol, programmer is going to love to get the programming take from the qa tester on whats wrong

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 12:47 AM

#

Programming skills and understanding of where data goes and how it is trying to be processed can help find buggy areas of an app

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 12:47 AM

#

Qa never touch the code

#

Why would it be needed

tacit siren Dec 1, 2019, 12:48 AM

#

they can, but a huge amount of confidence paired with very low actual skills

#

usually leads to jumping to conclusions

#

and worse reports then no programming knowledge at all

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 12:48 AM

#

QA isnt limited to video games

#

where QA testers are random dispensable people

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 12:48 AM

#

I rather have an unbiased player test the game

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 12:48 AM

#

paid to lowest salary..

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 12:48 AM

#

Developers are quite crap gamers 😜

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 12:50 AM

#

I did Microsoft Complaince, including functionality and compatiblity testing for two years. Worked on 15+ projects during that time period.
You could do a smoke tests, meaning to just go through all menus quickly and play to get a general ideas of where you often get bugs effortlessly.

#

But in some cases, it really helps to know how programmers coded the game/app.

#

To understand how to trigger performance drops, bust memory, trigger crashes, etc

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 12:51 AM

#

Microsoft just lets the qa people review their closed source?

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 12:51 AM

#

If you can do that, you need to get a better position than qa.

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 12:51 AM

#

Im just saying if you coded something, you know where you are passing variables and where it's likely to fail

#

There are QA engineers...

#

Analysts, etc

#

Depends on studio culture

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 12:53 AM

#

It still isn’t an worthwhile for employers. You just open yourself up to egos

tacit siren Dec 1, 2019, 12:53 AM

#

i prefer a programmer sending me a CV limits to his/her strong points

#

if you have to list casual familiarity with 10 languages, mark it as casual

#

i also prefer a small functional system with 4-6 classes involved being attached to the application

#

something i can infer how you think and how you approach software design from

#

as for QA, i'd honestly rather see a list of 12 games the applicant has played for 50+ hours in the genre my game is in, then 12 programming language proficiencies

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 1:15 AM

#

Dont you ever receive Videos filled with bugs they found???

#

Passing through invisible walls in Skyrim, trigger physics bug in THPS 25, Super Jumps in Halo 2, etc.

#

Passing flags through walls?

#

crashes in game menus

#

button combo bugs

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 1:18 AM

#

Don't need to be a programmer to play a game and test it. Programmer identifiable issues are and should be handled by the programmers as much as possible. Hunches from the qa dept aren't going to fix the problem any faster unless the programmers are incredibly unaware

bronze dew Dec 1, 2019, 1:19 AM

#

don't waste programmers time on finding bugs 😐

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 1:20 AM

#

Well point is the qa finds the bugs. Diagnosis is not under the description

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 1:20 AM

#

Quality and Assurance is worse now than it has ever been before.

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 1:20 AM

#

Why are we going on about QA though

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 1:21 AM

#

Wanna waste your time, talent, and income? Throw out your programming related resume and apply to play games instead 😜

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 1:22 AM

#

QA isnt about playing game

#

It's about breaking games

#

Basically they tell you how poor your programmers are (lulz)

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 1:22 AM

#

"QA isn't about playing games" ?

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 1:22 AM

#

(joke)

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 1:22 AM

#

Sweet. You need them hacking skills too

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 1:23 AM

#

My background in programming, level design and 3D. Helped me find bugs.
The real issue is QA testing is still viewed as low paid student job

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 1:24 AM

#

It seems like we just end up talking about your background all the time though

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 1:24 AM

#

I thought we were talking about QA

#

And you were just claiming that it's useless in QA to have a background in anything

#

Because QA isnt valuable apparently

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 1:25 AM

#

Always gotta self plug pat. Even if it isn’t relevant to the conversation

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 1:26 AM

#

You are talking about QA as if anyone could just do QA.
And as if someone who had experience in other areas wouldnt be useful in QA, because he would actually be wasting his time instead not filling other roles

#

maybe that's why QA is so bad now

#

QA is often viewed as unecessary

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 1:29 AM

#

Speaking personally, If i hired a QA team what i would expect is them to play the game and report problems. The ability of them to make assumptions of whats going on in code land is not of worth to me. Time spent contemplating such things is better spent by hiring someone to do code review if such feedback was desirable.

#

its a very important role though, i'm not minimizing it. I just fail to understand your logic of advising people looking to get into such field to pick up programming languages.

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 1:37 AM

#

I would not apply as a build programmer if I specialized in environment art. As how a story designer wouldn’t apply for animation programming. QA is a skill in itself. You would minimizing it by stating it requires credentials beyond it’s scope.

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 1:39 AM

#

And what Im saying is you actually going to hire 15 low paid guys that dont really know to look to trigger the bugs and will waste a lot of time trying to figure that out
When you can have someone who can do just that plus read the code and identify problems

#

create better test cases

#

etc

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 1:40 AM

#

What i'm saying is separate skill sets.

#

Ability to identify problems commonly found and make informed assumptions of how to trigger them is not programming languages.

daring parrot Dec 1, 2019, 1:41 AM

#

QA dudes at my old job in RF hardware were definitely qualified to code and read source, is game industry qa siloed from the rest of dev?

west sonnet Dec 1, 2019, 1:41 AM

#

Ok, at this point. I'm questioning if you ever been part of a qa operation in the game industry within the past 10 years.

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 1:44 AM

#

Thats been my understanding for the few companies that use QA, they don't entrust code to them.

#

Its not expected/desired

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 1:45 AM

#

Yes, in video games, QA is separate from Prod.
Unlike in other businesses where they have Software QA Testers, Analysts or else.

#

QA engineers.

#

The FQA tester is paid 40-50k a year
The game tester is paid like 13$ per hour

#

QA testing in games is not taken seriously at all

#

You can also see it by how certain studios handle QA as well.

#

Some studios use QA testers, burn them, just to create a To Do List out of it

#

for Jira

#

Telltale, by example, we sending builds that were so buggy. You just wondered what was the point.

#

When I create a level, script events, make a prop, etc. There is a minimum level of quality that needs to be respected.
And then you send the game to QA to cover your blind spots.
Instead, Telltale used to send a build that was so buggy, there was a bug like every 2-10 seconds

#

For those who dont know, they make Cinematic games with QTE.

daring parrot Dec 1, 2019, 1:50 AM

#

Made

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 1:50 AM

#

(shtt :P)

#

XD

#

@west sonnet
"Ok, at this point. I'm questioning if you ever been part of a qa operation in the game industry within the past 10 years."
Me?

#

Do you want the list? lmao

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 1:53 AM

#

We know all the stories by now chris

ashen lynx Dec 1, 2019, 1:54 AM

#

Chris, buttons with images on your website are not capable of being right-clicked and opened in new window. It is very discouraging.

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 1:54 AM

#

I agree

ashen lynx Dec 1, 2019, 1:54 AM

#

Are you going to fix them ?

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 1:54 AM

#

When that is going to fit my schedule?

ashen lynx Dec 1, 2019, 1:55 AM

#

About now sounds good ?

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 1:56 AM

#

@ashen lynx
Did you mean M3?

#

or you meant right click and then new tab and M3 is shortcut for it

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 1:57 AM

#

https://discordapp.com/channels/187217643009212416/226110055328514048/650514963479396353

ashen lynx Dec 1, 2019, 2:00 AM

#

I am a simple man. I see an image of Thief. I right click and select open in new tab, so it gets placed with dozens of others tabs I have open. I intend to read that in my precious spare time. And when the moment is at hand, what do I get? NOTHING! It opens an icon instead of a link. How would you feel if you have been treated this way ?

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 2:01 AM

#

Do you know the fix in HTML, CSS?

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 2:01 AM

#

Did you disable it because m3 is better?

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 2:01 AM

#

No I didnt disable it. You need to do something specific and a certain way to allow it

#

And I thought buttons, by default were doing it

#

They dont

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 2:02 AM

#

good qa though deathrey lol

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 2:02 AM

#

lmao

ashen lynx Dec 1, 2019, 2:02 AM

#

That is the point, lads.

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 2:02 AM

#

did you use computer languages?

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 2:08 AM

#

I found the fix. It's a bit stupid that buttons dont do it by default...

#

Will take a while to fix...

ashen lynx Dec 1, 2019, 2:08 AM

#

I don't have a while.

#

But when it happens, kindly ping me, so I know when I can right click and open in new tab all the things.

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 2:10 AM

#

I was planning on rebuilding the website in Angular.

vocal meadow Dec 1, 2019, 2:11 AM

#

hurry then

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 2:11 AM

#

It's currently only in HTML, CSS and JQuery.

#

It's fixed.

#

just not published

#

🕯️ 🕵️ 🕯️

#

Should be fixed now
@ashen lynx

ashen lynx Dec 1, 2019, 2:22 AM

#

Negative 😭

#

Oh, no, it is working properly now. That is true quality assurance!

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 2:38 AM

#

if the website doesnt load the changes right away you can always force the update by using, I believe, Left Ctrl + F5.

#

I need a coffee... ☕ , because Im going through the rest of the website now.

#

alex

#

@ashen lynx
The quick fix apparently was to use

<a href="https://XXXXXXXXXX">
     Image or text
</a>

But that also adds an ugly color to your text + underline it.
Turns out I found a way to get rid of them in CSS

a:link {color: inherit;text-decoration: none;}         /* Unvisited link  */
a:visited {color: inherit;text-decoration: none;} /* Visited link    */
a:hover {color: inherit;text-decoration: none;}   /* Mouse over link */
a:active {color: inherit;text-decoration: none;}  /* Selected link   */

bronze dew Dec 1, 2019, 3:21 AM

#

oh god... I don't miss css at all...

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 3:22 AM

#

In the sense that you use something else? Or that you dont have to deal with it ever again lol?

bronze dew Dec 1, 2019, 3:23 AM

#

I don't have to deal with it ever again 😉

plucky hatch Dec 1, 2019, 3:33 AM

#

🤣

errant timber Dec 2, 2019, 1:54 PM

#

Hey guys, is there a way to set the level transform for a sublevel in c++ ?

vocal meadow Dec 2, 2019, 2:06 PM

#

#cpp May be a good place it check

tidal moth Dec 2, 2019, 2:08 PM

#

are you saying that career chat isn't the best place to talk about level transforms in cpp?

errant timber Dec 2, 2019, 2:08 PM

#

wrong channel lmao

plucky hatch Dec 3, 2019, 6:40 PM

#

Hello

tender quartz Dec 4, 2019, 3:49 PM

#

Hi

vocal meadow Dec 4, 2019, 5:13 PM

#

Ahoy-hoy

lilac nova Dec 6, 2019, 9:27 AM

#

Hey guys long time lurker first time poster. What is everyone's opinion on Volunteer 3D work for s tech company that's just starting out?

iron cave Dec 6, 2019, 10:09 AM

#

I don't think I've ever seen such. Then again, I've never asked companies. Lol.

tidal moth Dec 6, 2019, 10:40 AM

#

if you're new and it gets you a job, then perhaps

#

although I'd say stay away from unpaid stuff in general, unless it's your own

fresh copper Dec 6, 2019, 12:43 PM

#

Why can't I post in #looking-for-work or rather how to? D_D

pastel estuary Dec 6, 2019, 12:45 PM

#

read the pinned message in that channel

fresh copper Dec 6, 2019, 12:46 PM

#

Found it D_D

#

TY.

silent acorn Dec 6, 2019, 3:17 PM

#

Any head jumps keywords or tutorials to start with technical art guys? I want to get more into unreal but also want a job at some point, so anything you monsters can recommend?

#

Don't need to be tutorials honestly just a couple of keywords I can get into would be nice

pastel estuary Dec 6, 2019, 3:17 PM

#

ue4 is a good keyword :p

#

ue4, tech, vfx, material, shader, math,

silent acorn Dec 6, 2019, 3:17 PM

#

aaa why do I always get sarcasm lmao

#

Wanna focus on something that can actually get me somewhere yknow? I really enjoy trimsheeting - technical stuff, going into some material and shader works

#

small vfx was very fun to doo aswell with some photogrammetry

#

so any strong keywords I can follow through ?

#

trying to learn some python for maya and stuff and really interested in more technical unreal stuff and how you can make things look sculpted and v sexy with trims and solid modular work

#

so

#

any help ? 💔

pastel estuary Dec 6, 2019, 3:20 PM

#

#ue4-general tends to be more active for such questions

#

i gtg :/

silent acorn Dec 6, 2019, 3:21 PM

#

thankyou ❤️

vocal meadow Dec 6, 2019, 4:27 PM

#

@lilac nova I tend to think there are better things for portfolio work than volunteering for a company. Especially if you’ve got to sign non compete. But it matters your willingness and how good it’d look on cv. A personal project may be more rewarding, and idea of companies trying to save a buck by allocating the money savings to some other project kinda frustrates me lol

lilac walrus Dec 6, 2019, 4:30 PM

#

a tech company that isn't paying you is a tech company that is exploiting you

ashen lynx Dec 6, 2019, 4:54 PM

#

@silent acorn Technical art starts from art, not from tech.

silent acorn Dec 6, 2019, 5:10 PM

#

@ashen lynx turesay, just wanna push forward and honestly grind at a good spot to get a proper job

mystic storm Dec 6, 2019, 8:27 PM

#

@silent acorn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqatEfc5w5I

YouTube

Unreal Engine

Tech Art with Chris Murphy | Live from HQ | Inside Unreal

Epic Evangelist Chris Murphy returns to share his latest adventures with shaders, procedural landscapes, and fully scaleable buildings. ANNOUNCEMENT POST htt...

▶ Play video

lilac nova Dec 6, 2019, 10:44 PM

#

@tidal moth I think I am fairly new, I have had one year of experince working in the industry so far and looking to keep gaining experience in the game industry. Thanks for the advice :)

@vocal meadow I agree. I had like another interview with them today and from what I understood they are a start up tech company and going to make it official in February 2020. They want 20 hr/ week commitment. I feel they are gonna throw NDA at me for working on their game. My guy feeling is telling me to do the same as you and others have suggested, of not perusing it.

west sonnet Dec 6, 2019, 10:47 PM

#

All I gotta say, don't be taken advantage of. You're an individual with technical and specialized skillset, not someone's mule.

lilac nova Dec 6, 2019, 10:48 PM

#

Thanks @west sonnet :)

#

Thank you everyone for helping me in this situation..I honestly wasn't sure how to approach it, but everyone here has helped me greatly to come to a decision.

vocal meadow Dec 6, 2019, 11:32 PM

#

Know its probably tempting to get into it but unless they have something you really want to work on tell them to jump in the lake when asking for commitments and NDA signatures.
in fact you should require them to sign a notice saying that the work you do voluntarily is your own. Grant them non exclusive usage rights for work they request with explicitly stating anything outside of that scope is not covered. Prehaps even stating you expect usage rights for anything they involve you with.
If the reason you're doing it is to build a portfolio and they don't let you share your work with the public it makes no sense.

lilac nova Dec 7, 2019, 12:05 AM

#

@vocal meadow damn... I didnt think about it that way. You my friend are absolutely right. With today's conversation with them today..I honestly could feel they were gonna make me work like a mule and not pay me or give any rights to use my work outside the project.

#

Honestly after today's conversation, I stromgly feel that I will reject working with them.

daring parrot Dec 7, 2019, 12:14 AM

#

there's a time and a place for working for free and it's usually "When I have a large stake in the project" 🙂

west sonnet Dec 7, 2019, 12:15 AM

#

Getting legally screwed over is pretty common unfortunately

lilac nova Dec 7, 2019, 12:47 AM

#

@daring parrot well these guys are like we may pay you in our stock. And to me that's just not right..since the company is quite litrally starting up.

@west sonnet so far I have been lucky...hopefully I wont ever have to experience it.

daring parrot Dec 7, 2019, 12:48 AM

#

stock/royalties is fake stakes 👀

kindred mason Dec 7, 2019, 12:57 AM

#

Wrong. Please stop spouting nonsense.

vernal wolf Dec 7, 2019, 12:58 AM

#

I'm in the 'fuck stock' camp

kindred mason Dec 7, 2019, 12:59 AM

#

Just an opinion if you don't like it. Or can't afford it.

#

However, it is very much a real and viable option for many.

vernal wolf Dec 7, 2019, 1:00 AM

#

There are individual cases which might be worthwhile but the vast majority of work for stock offers in game dev are bullshit

kindred mason Dec 7, 2019, 1:00 AM

#

I totally get it people can't live off of it if they don't have something else set up.

#

But to say that it's "fake" or whatever is just pretty damn ignorant.

#

At the very least present all facts

daring parrot Dec 7, 2019, 1:01 AM

#

I'm not saying it in itself is fake, but as far as stakes go it's pretty fake

kindred mason Dec 7, 2019, 1:01 AM

#

(or if you have experience, present it)

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 1:01 AM

#

if their words were literally "may pay you" don't agree to this (if you intend on being paid)

kindred mason Dec 7, 2019, 1:02 AM

#

As in anything....you read the freaking contract

#

And don't take a job without one

#

No matter the pay

vernal wolf Dec 7, 2019, 1:02 AM

#

Just browse the 'looking for people' threads and you'll quickly identify most people trading 'stock/royalties' for work are insane and completely worthless

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 1:02 AM

#

yea absolutely. even an nda will try to hide arbitration agremeents in there

kindred mason Dec 7, 2019, 1:03 AM

#

@vernal wolf I am not saying some of them aren't. But a few are diamonds in the rough... So don't write them all off

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 1:03 AM

#

well even if stock or royalty is interesting mayan they need to make a better statement than "may pay you"

kindred mason Dec 7, 2019, 1:03 AM

#

You just have to see what they are made of. What their actual structure is.

vernal wolf Dec 7, 2019, 1:03 AM

#

Aye, I'd write 95% off

#

if not 99%

kindred mason Dec 7, 2019, 1:05 AM

#

Yes. In this instance, you should definitely just ask for the contract ahead of time to read it. Anyone who doesn't want to send one in advance...tell them to kick rocks.

#

And always ask any questions you have if something doesn't make absolutely 100% sense to you in that contract.

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 1:13 AM

#

preferably ask someone than the other party too. If your agreeing to share royalties there should be as much in that contract protecting your right to the royalties as they've got. Again should make clear how you intend to handle the rights to your contributions as much as your rights to the other contributions and the ip as a whole.

#

its still a risk though in as much as the reality of something generating money can be slim

lilac nova Dec 7, 2019, 2:00 AM

#

From the information I wrote down, they say they may pay me in their stocks when the company reaches at a "certain level" and that to me is very fishy. Because it is a no- pay work and while commiting 80 hours on my stop gap arrangement job, I will be putting 20 hours on non paid work with their expectations. They have also said they wont provide me a contract until monday when they make their decision...and revisiting my notes with them...I am seeing alot of red flags here.

bronze dew Dec 7, 2019, 2:00 AM

#

yeah... I'd say no go on that one

#

but to be fair.. I wont work for anyone without a 50% deposit

#

I have to eat and pay rent lol

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 2:04 AM

#

verbal agreements are waht they are but yea if they designated a day for a contract, just see what their deal is then

ashen lynx Dec 7, 2019, 2:05 AM

#

Royalty share is totally fine, if the project is yours heh.

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 2:05 AM

#

lol that

#

but everyone can get in trouble with bad agreements, not just the contractor. if a company doesn't want to put language in about their rights because they don't want you to have any then they aren't really helping themselves either

west sonnet Dec 7, 2019, 2:07 AM

#

See if you can share the contract details with us. We’ll tear it apart and make this a learning experience for all 😜

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 2:08 AM

#

it'd be a weird contract if it said you couldn't get advice on it before hand

ashen lynx Dec 7, 2019, 2:08 AM

#

Loot contract. You first sign it, and then break the seal and check what % you get 🙂

west sonnet Dec 7, 2019, 2:09 AM

#

Meant, don’t say no before you see the propose contract.

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 2:10 AM

#

oof yea, if they want you to sign it on spot don't haha

west sonnet Dec 7, 2019, 2:11 AM

#

First contract is meant to be sent back with requested revisions

#

Unless you’re a sucker

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 2:14 AM

#

yea, if it's got mixed language of employee and contractor thats another red flag. legal dept. gets to argue either way based on your understanding of the agreement. so if theres not language in there about rights, they claim you didn't expect any because you thought you were an employee even though you weren't.

#

Wouldn't sign any nda to talk about a contract either, if they try to pull this.

lilac nova Dec 7, 2019, 2:33 AM

#

Thank you for all the help guys!!! I will keep everyone upto date

lilac walrus Dec 7, 2019, 10:55 AM

#

the best projects in those channels are the ones that either pay, or admit they're probably never going to make a penny - the latter in particular because they're realistic about their objectives and are the most likely to stick with it

alpine robin Dec 7, 2019, 1:43 PM

#

Hello, I'm looking for a person who can read two pages either in PORTUGUESE OR RUSSIAN I have translations but I would like to check, it's not huge but just the steam shop page and the tutorial has been translated. It's for my free game that's coming out on steam in a month, I hope. You'll be in the credits if you help me. Please contact me in MP if interested
. THANK YOU!

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 2:29 PM

#

royalties are nonsense

#

just be real with people instead of leading them on

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 4:01 PM

#

Nah, you know what's better?

#

"Work for exposure."

#

"Hey man, I can't pay you, but I can pay you in exposure, I have 100K followers on Twitter and 50K subscribers on Youtube."

lilac nova Dec 7, 2019, 4:05 PM

#

@iron cave that actually pulled that line on me on our first conversation. 🤣🤣🤣

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 4:07 PM

#

Like don't get me wrong, getting more people to know you is good in a sense. But if they only do exposure with no means to actually pay you, I'd decline. No matter if you are a 2 Million subscriber or have so many on twitter following you, it doesn't help me pay the bills. What's worse are people who have no intention to pay you at all. Like those choosing beggars who say they can't pay but be willing to gift you something. Which again, it doesn't really help. But I know those are more on freelance and commissions.

daring parrot Dec 7, 2019, 4:32 PM

#

How about they "gift" me a fat sack of cash

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 4:34 PM

#

You know, it is close to Christmas, you could ask them to gift you some wonga.

#

I never really want to deal with a Choosing Beggar, they are... Funny, cringy and toxic. They compliment your work, but as soon as you say no when they ask you to do it for free they become rude and try to tear you down. It's... Very bizarre.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 5:38 PM

#

you gotta be extremely firm when dealing with people and companies

#

polite but firm

#

if they start being toxic then just immediately ignore them and look elsewhere, there is no point continuing down that road

#

I'd say the same goes for someone offering your "exposure bucks"

#

decline and move on

#

if they start getting toxic, ignore and move on

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 5:47 PM

#

This what most do. Companies is one that can be handled, but we are talking directly about choosing beggars. They are the types that you don't need to be firm with, you just tell them to kindly bog off and move on. As they only want free content for zero.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 5:48 PM

#

I mean that's what being firm is

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 5:49 PM

#

Ah, yeah. Fair enough.

pastel estuary Dec 7, 2019, 5:49 PM

#

ignoring and moving on is what more interwebs people should do hehe

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 5:53 PM

#

Sadly for some who are new to the whole scene, getting told their work is terrible and they should, erhem... As CB's say, go off yourself, it doesn't offer the best line of light at times, heh.

#

But well, as they say. Sticks and Stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.

pastel estuary Dec 7, 2019, 5:54 PM

#

true, that was my first experience with the internet as well hehe

#

though, it does prepare them for a life on the interwebs

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 5:54 PM

#

True.

#

I grew a bit of a thick skin after encountering those unpleasant folks. Unfortunately when you explain to people you are learning, they don't seem to let off and continue to barrage you with hateful comments. If I recall you can't become a Frank Klepacki, a Da Vicii or such within 2 years or the like, takes time.

Talking about music wise mind you as example, since that's what I am aiming for more, aha.

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 6:10 PM

#

might feel weird sticking up for yourself during agreements, because they want you to feel they are doing you a favor. but an agreement that doesn't help you isn't worth it

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:13 PM

#

That's the thing, they think because you are doing them a favour they'll return it with "exposure" or "Followers" or "shoutouts", problem is, as good as it is to have more followers for your work, it doesn't pay, and some people don't want to aim to be a famous artist or designer, they just want to be able to live and pay bills, ya know? I mean hell, if you are good financially and think that you want to go help someone out for free, fair enough, at the end of the day it's your choice. But if you got talent for something that can potentially make you some money, no reason not to try, aha.

#

Thing is, only time I'd ever do something for free for someone is if I've been friends with them for years and they've been doing me favours during my time knowing them. But if it's strangers, it's relatively easy to say they won't get free stuff. Lol.;

#

I suppose you could think of it in a way that it's a double edged blade. Good to gain a fan base to hopefully increase sales for your work, but you don't want to be known as someone who only wants to be famous and greedy.

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 6:15 PM

#

you don't want to be known as a sucker either though

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:15 PM

#

True.

#

Hence why it's a double edged blade.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:15 PM

#

forget fame and exposure tbh

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:16 PM

#

Yeah.

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 6:16 PM

#

i'm sure there are some occasions where exposure is really worth it, but you better be clear about who owns the work you do

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:16 PM

#

you'll be a drop in the sea regardless of what happens in terms of exposure

#

nobody in the industry would take you seriously if you were grassroots "famous" either

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 6:16 PM

#

yea lol

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:16 PM

#

But here's the thing.

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 6:16 PM

#

unless it was linus tech tips or something

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:17 PM

#

I'd hire linus tech tips as an IT guy

#

not for much else though

#

also not IT isn't a core discipline of game dev either

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 6:17 PM

#

he do have the gamer audience at his beck and call

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:17 PM

#

What happens if a group of casual vloggers, or Youtubers for instance come to you who need a song for their channel. Now let's say they all have a suitable fanbase. But they are also willing to pay for your effort.

That's obviously worth doing, isn't it? Because that offers both a payment and a possible increase of fans for your work that could potentially also help increase commission requests.

#

Which on a freelance term would be good, no? More commissions the better? Paid ones of course.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:18 PM

#

yeah but you're only talking about cases that are specific to audio

#

and audio isn't really core to game development either

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 6:18 PM

#

wouldn't assume they are going to credit you for the music in a way you'd get exposure from

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:18 PM

#

Yeah, of course.

#

And aye, unless you specifically tell them to make sure to credit you.

#

But that's again questionable.

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 6:19 PM

#

even hiding whispers of your name in the music, people probably wont notice lol

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:20 PM

#

if they offer you pay, take it, obviously

#

but either how it's a very specific edge case

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 6:20 PM

#

yea

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:20 PM

#

Yeah.

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 6:20 PM

#

if they want a discount on what they pay you for exposure thouhg, make sure the terms are very clear

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:20 PM

#

My main problem is, I just don't fancy fucking myself over as a freelancer, and also disappoint people.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:20 PM

#

then get hired

#

there aren't really that many options

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:21 PM

#

Easier said than done lol.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:21 PM

#

ultimately if you want to focus on audio you don't have to limit yourself to games either

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:21 PM

#

Yeah but unfortunately I am not one of those... Erhem.

#

Super skilled, amazing types. yet.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:21 PM

#

and people in the games industry don't care that much about where your audio credits are from, but they do expect you to know your shit

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:21 PM

#

So my chances of being hired in Audio is currently 0.

vocal meadow Dec 7, 2019, 6:21 PM

#

pro-audio technician

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:22 PM

#

Or well music in general. I thought of doing a course focused about digital music and such to improve my current work.

#

Since I am saving up to buy additional plugins and items for my music stuff.

#

Of course I am stuck with the JC as well, which I use to help me with my music production.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:23 PM

#

and you'll have to realize that you're not only making music for games, but also foley

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:23 PM

#

Even if they come at me with a lot of uh... Unpleasant support.

#

Well see I don't mind making music for other stuff.

#

hell, if I get asked to make music for a commercial.

#

I'd do it.

#

But it's getting there and well, getting noticed is the thing.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:23 PM

#

but really this is getting off topic, this isn't so much about a career within games, it's about a career in music that may branch over to games, eventually

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:24 PM

#

Actually this is particually on topic, because it is still focused in games. I've been doing mostly just game music for the past two or so years. [Not amazingly of course.]

#

But being informed how the career for music in games is pretty much nearly nonexistant, as most companies have already someone, or hire a huge orchestra group. It's difficult.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:25 PM

#

exactly

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:25 PM

#

But I feel music is more my thing since I feel a bit more happy with it then I do with 3D or Environment design.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:26 PM

#

so if you want to focus on music, it's likely going to be a music focused thing where occasionally you'll work on games, either through contract or as freelance etc.

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:26 PM

#

Mostly because I struggle to figure out what I am legitimately good at.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:26 PM

#

i.e. not really a career in games

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:26 PM

#

Would depend, really the only thing I got under my belt is a finished game with my music on it, that's on Steam, Discord and the like on full sale.

#

So all i can class as a portfolio for now is that one game, with a soundcloud full of other stuff that I completed and did, but I hope to eventually have a few more indie games under my belt to least be proud off.

#

Or at least say "Hey, I did stuff, I hope you might give me a shot." Sorta thing.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:29 PM

#

sure but again, it's a tangential field that isn't really a part of a core team in games, so you'll always end up just doing whatever to get by, which will most likely be outside of games since there's more money in creating advertising jingles than in the occasional indie music contract

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:30 PM

#

True, true. But hell, how do you even find those types of request? When I looked through Reddit, or Linkedin or even Reed or such, I don't think there is really anything related to commercial based music requirements. Unless I have to contact a company directly.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:31 PM

#

I don't know. I deal in game development, not in music

#

I think there are agencies that take care of these type of effects for brands that want to advertise

#

but that is conjecture on my part at best

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:31 PM

#

Hmm... Oh yes, Agencies.

#

I completely forgot about them.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:32 PM

#

in either case I think you'd have a better time looking for advice from people who have experience making music for something like commercial advertising than from the meager response you can get here

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:33 PM

#

Weeeell. Some of the people here have been rather supportive and helpful. So I wouldn't say this place is completely useless. Lol.
Nah but seriously, it hasn't been so bad here asking for tips and most of the responses have been rather informative.

#

But yeah. I might actually go and look for those agencies, I am sure Germany has some, hopefully some nearby my area. So I could see if there's anything there that could help.

tidal moth Dec 7, 2019, 6:34 PM

#

I'm not saying we're useless, I'm saying what you're looking for and what people in here can tell you are two different things

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 6:34 PM

#

Oh yeah, obviously.

plucky hatch Dec 7, 2019, 8:10 PM

#

with music first decide if you are selling the music or licensing the music. if you are selling the music you will get a large one time sum, but in the future you will not be able to make money off of that music. if you are licensing, you will get small payments forever and maybe a bonus at the beginning to seal the deal, and only you may profit from other uses of the music. you will always be able to claim credit as the creator for portfolio reasons in either scenario.

iron cave Dec 7, 2019, 9:18 PM

#

Yeah but first the music has to be even good in quality before I can even make it a license.

#

I only got lucky with the first sale, but I haven't had any complaints yet when they bought the game... Yet.

lilac nova Dec 8, 2019, 2:44 AM

#

Hey guys thank you so much for all the advice. Everyone gave me alot to think about and I have decided to reject prospect of joining the studio I mentioned. One of the reason being that few of my connections and I have decided to make our own game, which I personally think would be better allocation of my time.

tidal moth Dec 8, 2019, 3:13 AM

#

sounds good, good luck

vocal meadow Dec 8, 2019, 5:43 AM

#

Be sure to share your progress on the game in #work-in-progress (if it’s Unreal of course)

lilac nova Dec 8, 2019, 6:07 AM

#

@vocal meadow sure thing! Currently I am on the concpeting phase. I will definently share my progress in the channel.

latent valley Dec 8, 2019, 6:59 AM

#

where should i study game dev from?

urban stump Dec 8, 2019, 7:56 AM

#

Youtube if you're broke and can handle self motivation for extended periods of time, college if there's a legitimately good one in your area (which is rare).

lilac walrus Dec 8, 2019, 1:25 PM

#

eh, who says you have to stay in your area?

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 2:00 PM

#

yeah, if you're not tied down absolutely look around 🙂

tidal moth Dec 8, 2019, 3:58 PM

#

the curse (or blessing) of our industry is that we get to travel a lot

#

sometimes inadvertently

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:22 PM

#

Well, honestly, staying in your area is almost critical for most fledging Adult Americans

#

(brand new baby adults)

#

The safety net is real

#

Also in-state tuition vs out-of-state is pretty damn big difference

#

Plenty of caveats of course to this, but generally, much easier and better for people not to venture off too far from home, although leaving the safety net is also a great sign of independence.

#

And if you're looking at schools with game development degrees anyway, they aren't as many (but rapidly growing) in the USA

#

Now for some extreme caveats and personal experience. I personally chose to travel an hour to and from school every day for my game development degree from Savannah College of Art and Design. It was definitely an inconvenience, but I already had a house I owned. Moving to Savannah (or anyone else for that matter) just wasn't a smart move.

#

I did play it smart and tried to get all my classes on the same days though and right after each other. Sadly that didn't always work out, but it was still pretty sweet to only go to school 2-3 days out of the week.

#

But yeah, nowadays, plenty of online materials to learn from. I learned a lot from books and online materials while going to school.

#

Also, nothing beats experience. Join game jams.

#

Start pumping out a portfolio.

#

If you don't and just go the school route, without doing anything extra....I almost guarantee you...you won't be going anywhere in your life...I know plenty of people in my year.... working at diners, gas stations, rock climbing places, etc.

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 5:32 PM

#

School, on top of networking, is a chance to practice for years with guidance 👍

#

If you've got the self motivation to practice consistently online resources may be all you need

vocal meadow Dec 8, 2019, 5:33 PM

#

making mods and wandering aimlessly in internet forums worked for me. youtube can imply a bit more of a authority than it deserves though, should question everything. important to remember how frequestly stuff changes, even when the person knows what they are saying there are very few standards in the industry

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 5:34 PM

#

Also... while I'm thinking about networking. Don't try to just network up, but getting to know your classmates is what often reaps the real rewards later

vocal meadow Dec 8, 2019, 5:36 PM

#

yea people can be cool for sure

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:40 PM

#

Meh

vocal meadow Dec 8, 2019, 5:40 PM

#

don't recommend people? haha

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:40 PM

#

lol

#

Well, again, it just depends on a lot of factors

vocal meadow Dec 8, 2019, 5:41 PM

#

yea, i was generalizing a bit

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:41 PM

#

Personally, I couldn't recommend anyone in my class that I remember

#

However, I do know a few that now work at Epic

#

So I do rec those guys 😉

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 5:41 PM

#

think of it this way: You're not going to be personally recommended for a position by a rando you met at a networking event, but you probably will be by a classmate you worked on a group project with that got an A 🙂

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:42 PM

#

But I wasn't pulling anything out of my butt when I said, people work at gas stations, rock climbing ventures, etc

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 5:42 PM

#

maybe my view is biased since I got an engineering degree and none of my classmates are at gas stations? 😛

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:42 PM

#

Those are the people who put very little effort into themselves and the program....the ones I tried to personally motivate in my own special way.

#

How big was your class @daring parrot ?

vocal meadow Dec 8, 2019, 5:43 PM

#

eh my point was more towards just being social is a good idea when your in front of a bright screen and rgb pulses for extended periods of time

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 5:43 PM

#

it was one of the smallest engineering programs at the school, I'd guess between 20-30 graduating each year

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:43 PM

#

yes, being social is definitely a good thing to do!

#

20-30 heh

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 5:44 PM

#

rock climbing is pretteh cool 🙂

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:44 PM

#

Now imagine my class that was easily 10x that

#

all game dev

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 5:44 PM

#

all the more opportunity 🙂

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:44 PM

#

that went into the wild in 2017

#

No...

#

You are wrong

#

Not opportunity...

#

Competition

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 5:45 PM

#

this is not a gamedev thing tho, lots of ppl dont end up using their start study

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:45 PM

#

100% if you're even remotely aligned with their focus in game dev

#

Competition is good though 🙂

#

Brings out the best in people

#

Some people can't handle it though 😭

#

@shut tree Aye, that's true.

#

But I think it's even more so with game dev.

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 5:46 PM

#

u get a job to pay for study and roll into that

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:46 PM

#

How many openings are there really each year?

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 5:46 PM

#

yea, cuz its not a local job , like carpenter

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:46 PM

#

Compared to xyz tech industry

#

That's one of the reasons why I never focused on AAA

#

While almost everyone in my class did

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 5:46 PM

#

when u do a job like that there is allways stuff to do

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:47 PM

#

I knew that most companies were looking for experience

#

How much experience can you really get from school?

#

(comparing experience to same group of students)

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 5:47 PM

#

computer engineering is an even tighter field I bet 😛 EE/CS grads also competing for the same jobs, but CmpE grads not as proficient in either field to shine when competing for their jobs 🤣

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:47 PM

#

man

#

don't get me started on CE

#

📎 JPEG_20191208_124830.jpg

#

I don't have just one degree 😉

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 5:48 PM

#

I'm glad I did it, but lol it's a problem graduating away from tech centers with that degree

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:49 PM

#

📎 JPEG_20191208_124921.jpg

#

Anyway, there's the proof. just so no one thinks I am talking about of my butt. There's experience behind it.

vocal meadow Dec 8, 2019, 5:50 PM

#

very fancy

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:50 PM

#

So if anyone has any questions related to game development degrees, hit me up.

#

Ehhh

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 5:50 PM

#

did u make anything usefull during it? 😛

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:51 PM

#

I just noticed... I didn't get cum Laude on my gamedev degree wtf

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 5:51 PM

#

like code u still use?

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:51 PM

#

pretty sure I met the gpa requirement..now I have to look

#

@shut tree who uses the same code from years ago?

#

Actually, not sure what you mean by that anyway

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 5:52 PM

#

good code never dies 😛

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:52 PM

#

eh

#

To answer your question...only one project I did was worth it from school

#

https://www.victorburgosgames.com/portfolio/centauri/

#

It won GOTY in VR for the Rookies in 2017

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 5:53 PM

#

(your site is broken on my browser)

📎 unknown.png

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:53 PM

#

@daring parrot what browswer?

#

Are you using 100% ?

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 5:53 PM

#

firefox vRecentSomethingOrOther

#

oh

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:53 PM

#

I know if you use >100%

#

it breaks

#

I am not a webdev...sorry

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 5:54 PM

#

yeah, vertical tab bar pushes it over

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:54 PM

#

I will eventually get someone to fix that

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 5:54 PM

#

i still have some programs that are really old i wrote myself, didnt make em in school tho

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 5:54 PM

#

I can't blame you, I hate web dev 😛

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 5:54 PM

#

some stuff for taxes and database

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:55 PM

#

Ah, you mean productivity stuff / tools

#

Nah I was and am stilled mostly focused on actual gamedev 🙂

#

Making games

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 5:57 PM

#

if u make a fancy bulletpool, could def recycle it

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 5:57 PM

#

But going back to that CE degree...it was probably the hardest thing I've ever done in my life

#

Why?

#

Because it was boring as f*ck

#

I thought it was be cool to design CPU/GPUs at the time

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 5:59 PM

#

better off doin electronics 😛

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 5:59 PM

#

all the EEs are better prepared for those positions though 💤 it's an uphill battle

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 6:00 PM

#

didn't do enough research at the time when I entered into that program. Learned the mistake pretty quickly, but I wasn't one to give up. So I finished the program then set my eyes on the future... ¯_(ツ)_/¯

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 6:02 PM

#

wouldnt know what u get with CE, i did business informatics

#

and bio tech, but didnt finish that1

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 6:03 PM

#

The good thing about game dev is you can practically get into it with literally any degree

daring parrot Dec 8, 2019, 6:03 PM

#

you do the first 50% of comp sci curriculum. and the first 50% of electrical engineering curriculum. And you get a few courses of computer design as a cherry on top

kindred mason Dec 8, 2019, 6:03 PM

#

(or no degree at all)

shut tree Dec 8, 2019, 6:05 PM

#

somehow the biotech still helps from time to time, it had a ton of math

sudden island Dec 9, 2019, 11:30 AM

#

i know someone who graduated from international relations and went into game design as their first job

tidal moth Dec 9, 2019, 11:32 AM

#

pretty apt degree for game design all things considered

iron cave Dec 9, 2019, 12:33 PM

#

Sometimes just having a degree is good if you decide to work in another country

#

Some prefer you to have an degree, makes it easier to enrol for things.

halcyon oriole Dec 9, 2019, 3:34 PM

#

even when you have an arts degree, it feels good to have one.

old gale Dec 9, 2019, 7:17 PM

#

well @sudden island do we know each other ;> ?

autumn dawn Dec 9, 2019, 7:23 PM

#

Where can I post a recruitment announcement?

west sonnet Dec 9, 2019, 7:43 PM

#

#looking-for-talent read pinned message there

craggy crane Dec 10, 2019, 1:32 AM

#

@kindred mason Yeah, for sure! I have a degree in computer science, but can't say it taught me anything that someone can't find online. I think degrees just offer a lot more structure and apply enough pressure to keep you in line (discipline and commitment are important skills for game dev, especially pushing through to actually finishing and releasing something). Some people excel in those conditions, others hate it. Many people do exceptionally well outside of degrees just following their own interests until they find themselves falling in love with game dev (or an aspect thereof).

Everyone has their own little journey. The piece of paper you get at the end of a degree helps in many ways, but it certainly isn't necessary for success.

#

Experience is the key here, I think. The experience of finishing something -- the stuff you learned along the way. Whether you're doing a degree or making a game from scratch, simply committing to it and learning from it is all that matters. When it comes to finding jobs, just proving that you can get the job done is, and you have experience doing so (portfolios, degree, etc), is what I have seen netting people the most success.

lilac nova Dec 10, 2019, 7:11 AM

#

I think one of the factors alot of people over look is the name of the school that plays a role. I have attended two of the top colleges and I have observed, that the one in US is very well recognized by the industry..but it doesnt help much.mwhen you are not "experienced". It can get you interviews. Which is great but after that you are on your own. And the one in Canada is well recognized as well, due to which I can get jobs easily here...so it's a slippery slope

iron cave Dec 10, 2019, 7:47 AM

#

That would depend on country to country though I am sure, in England the only real recognisable study place is Oxford, think therenis another two. But a lot of places care more on what you learned from it and what you done than studying at a specific place. Sure it be an bonus but honestly it's the work that counts.

lilac walrus Dec 10, 2019, 8:24 AM

#

England has a large number of recognisable universities

#

Oxford doesn't count for shit if you want to work in games

#

That's mostly for the lawyers, etc.

iron cave Dec 10, 2019, 8:38 AM

#

I know, but it's one of those universities that most usually know if you always hit lawyer or business, or anything else in that path. Expensive education though, and those darned private schools.

#

I mean, I am regretting the course I took, but happy I got a degree out of it to make life a little easier.

tidal moth Dec 10, 2019, 10:26 AM

#

@craggy crane I think the takeaway from CS for me was the mindset of problem solving

#

I've become much methodological in all aspects of life, and it's enabled me to do things I wouldn't have thought of before

#

could you look up the very information online? sure, but the way you're being taught forces you to deal with problems that require you think differently

#

have enough of those and eventually you'll start developing a new mindset

craggy crane Dec 10, 2019, 10:58 AM

#

True true!

nova tartan Dec 10, 2019, 5:32 PM

#

Academia cares about where you studied and who you mentored under
Business cares a lot less, much more results oriented.
Though I do place some weighting on grades.
I've worked with enough C students to know I don't want to hire them. Show you can do better.

daring parrot Dec 10, 2019, 5:59 PM

#

What if my only C grade was in C labs?

flat gazelle Dec 10, 2019, 7:14 PM

#

Have hired a department. Don't know if any of them have degrees. Don't care either.

lilac walrus Dec 10, 2019, 7:14 PM

#

I've hired a dude without a degree, and I've hired a dude with a PHD that didn't even play games

#

it's all about the candidate, not the piece of paper

pastel estuary Dec 10, 2019, 7:17 PM

#

I have a few diploma's, one of em related to farming and gardening, and one for "games and animation" never even had to mention them

west sonnet Dec 10, 2019, 7:20 PM

#

I walked into my university already self taught 90% of what the entire program offered. Boy was that a waste of money

silent acorn Dec 10, 2019, 9:39 PM

#

@west sonnet I'm 100% self taught this is my second year learning jackshit

#

Their amazing unreal blending session was downright opening a megascan mastermaterial and copying it's contents

tidal moth Dec 10, 2019, 9:41 PM

#

yeah going to uni for the knowledge alone isn't worth it

silent acorn Dec 10, 2019, 9:47 PM

#

I don't see how I'm getting anything from this but a degree

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 9:48 PM

#

uni is mostly useless if you already know how to self teach.... the only advantage is set schedules and access to other people. And maybe motivation from watching others ?

west sonnet Dec 10, 2019, 9:51 PM

#

I'd argue that expensive piece of paper is good for immigration.

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 9:51 PM

#

only if your under 29

west sonnet Dec 10, 2019, 9:53 PM

#

maybe for getting a pay raise though any decent studio knows that a degree doesn't = quality. The more scummy ones will use a lack of one as grounds for lower income.

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 9:53 PM

#

its unlikely that will actually work

#

my personal experience has shown that they don't really care about any degree or not. ( unless your going into a heavy math area )

west sonnet Dec 10, 2019, 9:54 PM

#

it's an impression that those trying to enter the labour force has unfortunately

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 9:55 PM

#

things I wish I could impress on people. 1. getting into this industry is stupidly hard. 2. Make sure your in this industry for the right reasons. 3. Never work for free for other people.

west sonnet Dec 10, 2019, 9:56 PM

#

that naivety is what universities with such programs are literally banking on

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 9:56 PM

#

tis true

#

makes me sad

#

hell.. I fell for it also

west sonnet Dec 10, 2019, 9:57 PM

#

likewise

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 9:58 PM

#

at least I was not stuck in a 3 / 4 year crapathon

silent acorn Dec 10, 2019, 10:22 PM

#

So

#

just work on a portfolio

#

and keep posting

#

till you make it

vocal meadow Dec 10, 2019, 11:06 PM

#

there are immigration incentives for people who go to school?

west sonnet Dec 10, 2019, 11:10 PM

#

It’s hard to get a work vesa without a degree

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:24 PM

#

Having a masters degree helped me with immigration

#

It significantly reduces the amount of attention the immigration officers give you for visa & immigration

#

Since it puts you outside of the common risk groups

vocal meadow Dec 10, 2019, 11:26 PM

#

Very nice

west sonnet Dec 10, 2019, 11:27 PM

#

Would still be cheaper to bribe the officers 😜

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:29 PM

#

Mmmm

#

I'm not sure

#

I think it will be cheaper to buy an illegal passport and enter the US through Canada

#

At least less risky

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:37 PM

#

why do people think it's easy to go to America via Canada.... also.. why would you want to... LOL

vocal meadow Dec 10, 2019, 11:38 PM

#

it is though isn't it?

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:38 PM

#

Because crossing the border by car is fairly straightforward and the chance that you'll trip an extra passport check is low

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:38 PM

#

that's kinda absolute rubbish

daring parrot Dec 10, 2019, 11:39 PM

#

Weren't there just stories about British citizens jailed for accidentally crossing the border on an unmarked road lol

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:39 PM

#

yes

#

that happens more then people expect

#

I've had a friend arrested by accidentally going over the border on a Canadian passport via a small road

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:40 PM

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With a fake passport you just cross border as normal, but it's best to cross land borders and not the ones in the airport

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You can go through mexico if you want

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:40 PM

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he was incarcerated for over a week

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:40 PM

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Doesn't matter. Can also probably go through a sea ship

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:40 PM

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and he's also an American citizen.

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you seriously think it's that easy to get a fake passport that will actually pass ? LOL

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sorry... just.. no

west sonnet Dec 10, 2019, 11:41 PM

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Gotta admit though, going through customs in Canada was hilariously easy, “What’s your name, when were you born, why are you here? Welcome to Canada”

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:41 PM

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It's pretty easy yeah

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But somewhat expensive and the opportunity isn't always open

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Idk where the exact origin of them is, but few years ago a fake UK passport tied to a real UK citizens identity (but with your biometric data) went for a couple thousand USD

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Obviously you cannot go to UK (and some more countries sometimes) with it

west sonnet Dec 10, 2019, 11:43 PM

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(Disclaimer, don’t preform illegal activities)

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:44 PM

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Yes, please don't. It takes a very concentrated effort to do this and it's more of an interesting thought than a practical path for anyone who could possibly want to move to another country in this chat

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:44 PM

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you make it all sound so easy...

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in fact... so much more easy then getting these passports legit 😉

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I know we are not actually suggesting people go and do this

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:45 PM

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The world of international travel is fascinating

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I met one person with a government-issued semi-fake passport

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It was a real passport, but issued bypassing the normal procedures

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So not really fake, but also didn't go through the normal services

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It was a special case to let the person stay in the country without issuing them a visa

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:46 PM

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god... renewing my passport while overseas was an absolute nightmare

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:47 PM

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I went back to my home country to renew mine

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They improved the procedure SO MUCH

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It's so incredibly nice to renew passports back in the home country, just go to one of the many public service centers and submit a request for a new passport, 3-4 days later tops the new passport is made

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:47 PM

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it took 5 months expedited to renew my Canadian passport...

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:47 PM

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Doing it overseas sounds terrible and I didn't even wanna try

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:48 PM

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they would not actually let me into the country without

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it

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and I was born in Canada...

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and I have 2 other passports with legal travel to canada to top it off LOL

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:48 PM

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Ya, if mine expired outside of the country, I would need to get back through the embassy

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And they would be super mad about it too

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:49 PM

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easyest one I've seen to renew / get was the Swiss one

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:49 PM

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If you have a special case, the embassy of your country should be able to issue you a temporary travel document

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"I didn't renew my passport" isn't a special case though

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:50 PM

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actually

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they had just changed the laws

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like.. a week before I tried to have mine renewed

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:50 PM

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That always sucks

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:50 PM

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before I could travel on any of my passports legally

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:51 PM

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To bring this back on-topic, the degree does help when getting a visa or doing immigration, so far that's been pretty much the one real practical use I got out of my degree 😄

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:51 PM

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only place that's even remotely difficult for me to get into atm is America... they don't like snow mexicans

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:51 PM

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Though I work in the speciality that follows my degree and the degree is also a good proof that you can do boring tasks

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To me, a person with a degree is a person who has proven that they can do dumb mundane tasks they don't like, consistently

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:54 PM

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lol

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that's really any job 😉

tacit siren Dec 10, 2019, 11:55 PM

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like doing a same experiment 200 times in a row so you can calculate the standard deviation ❤️

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:55 PM

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Sorta. Dunno. I see people who have worked in various places for a while, but they have terrible work ethic

west sonnet Dec 10, 2019, 11:55 PM

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Snow Mexicans? That’s a new one

fickle hatch Dec 10, 2019, 11:56 PM

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Though ultimately I don't think a degree is neccessary outside of immigration and maybe the initial job hire 😄

bronze dew Dec 10, 2019, 11:58 PM

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lol... never heard of Canadians being called Snow mexicans ?

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I heard that a few times here and when I was in LA awhile ago

west sonnet Dec 11, 2019, 12:01 AM

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Strange. First I’ve heard of it. Sounds like you’ve met some arses 😜

bronze dew Dec 11, 2019, 12:01 AM

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E3 would be the place

west sonnet Dec 11, 2019, 12:03 AM

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Yeah that pretty disrespectful.

kindred mason Dec 11, 2019, 12:04 AM

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Ehhh...

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I've heard them all... And this is the first time I've heard that one

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36 years on my life.... Marine for 12 years ...

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I don't think it's as popular as you might think

vocal meadow Dec 11, 2019, 12:05 AM

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Haven't heard that before either, does sound kinda derogatory towards somebody

kindred mason Dec 11, 2019, 12:06 AM

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I mean....you can make almost anything sound bad to anyone

west sonnet Dec 11, 2019, 12:06 AM

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Derogatory towards both

fickle hatch Dec 11, 2019, 12:06 AM

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I've heard it before

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But only used in a joking context

kindred mason Dec 11, 2019, 12:07 AM

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I guess I haven't heard any good/bad jokes in awhile

west sonnet Dec 11, 2019, 12:07 AM

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Respect cultures. Don’t be mean to our friends from the North and South 😜

kindred mason Dec 11, 2019, 12:07 AM

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If anything... I wouldn't mind visiting either country right now

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Cancun and Tequila

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Or Vancouver and well... Don't know what they got up there. gin?

west sonnet Dec 11, 2019, 12:08 AM

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Fish and flowers

vocal meadow Dec 11, 2019, 12:11 AM

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Two excellent things, moose too

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I got tripped up on the plural for moose

kindred mason Dec 11, 2019, 12:13 AM

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It's not Meese?

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kappa