Ok that’s fair. Thanks
#career-chat
scarlet bloom
plucky hatch
That's why the portfolio is not everything.
production work, depending on the project can be average to high
So they look for solid employees, work ethic, production speed, team players
fickle hatch
@scarlet bloom I always have stuff to do, once I finish something I move onto another task so I don't get tempted to stick to that one forever
chilly pebble
@scarlet bloom so even if you're done with your project you can still do like bugfixibg
tender quartz
When you gotta ship, the ship sails
So sometimes it’s like how can I do this as quickly, hacky, messy, point a to b & whatever so that the ship doesn’t sink
plucky hatch
Anyone got any info on "Platanito
#0058"
positive or negative feedback if you have worked with him before please
supple timber
Is it worth it going to uni for game development?
broken hollow
Not sure about game development since that usually deals with programming and stuff. However, in my opinion, (as I have completed my diploma and bachelors in game design) its quite beneficial as they can teach you certain key industry tips that can be very very helpful and most importantly, group projects. I have learned so much from group projects especially after upholding numerous roles such as game designer, level designer and even narrative designer.
Looks good on your portfolio as well.
gentle stone
As someone who went to uni for a degree in computer science with 'a bit' of games programming and who researched private schools that exclusively teach game dev related content, including knowing people who went there: it's worth it only if you can see students produce good results (see Gnomon or Hertfordshire) . Those unis tend to cost you a lot though. Those are primarily game art, so if you are looking for programming then I'd say HELL NO
A lot about games programming is common OOP and the industry grew up without people needing to specifically study 'games programming'. You can teach yourself all of that once you have a trained analytical mind and know more about computer science in general and chances are you'll learn more doing it yourself than if some guy did the equivalent of a youtube tutorial live.
The only thing I think where a uni has some advantage is the possibility to meet your peers and network and do group projects. But if you know your way around those will happen automatically with time, skill and effort.
swift crown
I went 3 years for a technical game development course but then I felt the need for more theory because even tho I knew how to make games I didn't know what kinds of game I should make and didn't know how to perform researches so I went to college for a bachelor degree in game design and digital entertaiment which was exactly what I needed to better learn how to plan my games and research what should be included in my game and how exactly to do it
Ok.. now answering your question, if you want to be a game designer or programmer it is worth, you can get along very well without it too so I advise you not get debts of any kinds
about going to uni to be an artist I personally think its kind of bullshit buuuut university is very good for you as a human being and it will always be good for you to get in touch with that people. Marc Brunet from cubebrush talked a lot about it in his tutorials that I have watched a lot, he is the guy who made the 3D model of Tracer from Overwatch and he never went to college, he has the Art School for Digital Artists program with a lot of digital videos about many subjects.. thats what I would do if I wanted to be an artist
but if you can pay for university, its always good to have a diploma.. if not then dont do it
karmic kayak
One thing to keep in mind: If you plan to migrate to the U.S or Canada a degree helps greatly regardless of being an Artist, Coder or whatnot.
Those countries are locked down well
swift crown
yeah I agree with that Dizco
frigid fox
@supple timber Depends on the country aswell I think , how accepting is your country government of games , where are they using them , for how long have there been courses there , e.g how old is the course you would like to get into? try to talk with graduates or current 3rd years and ask their opinion . In my opinion being in the 3rd year of Game Design and Development course in Portugal , I dont think is that worth , I consider myself self-taught even tough im in uni because there hasnt been nearly anything valuable I actually got from classes , in my opinion if you go to uni , go for the connections and for the social experience .
supple timber
@frigid fox there isnt a uni for "game development" in my country so i would have to go programming , we arent actually taught anything about game development
frigid fox
Well , thats the route most people take actually , and to me seems to be the safest one , since if you have a cs degree , you can find programming jobs easily and work on the game development area of your choosing in your free time , I dont know what exactly you want to do in the area of game development , if you want to do something specific, to get a specific position in the industry , like 3D Character Modeller , VFX Artist or the like you can just do it without uni , there are amazing courses online for it. If you want to be a solo indie , just do CS and work on some safe job while you do it as a hobby , until you get enough so you can quit for a few years I guess. The uni degree paper has its uses ofcourse , but its up to you , to see if its worth the investment
supple timber
tbh i only want the uni degree as a backup since i think i am going to start as a freelancer @frigid fox
proggramer prob
gentle stone
that would be fine then, lots of open doors remain
fickle hatch
I would half seriously suggest an applied physics degree or another practical engineering degree of your choice that involves computers and lets YOU learn gamedev on your free time in a way compatible with other studies
fickle hatch
The primary purpose of the university is to teach you to learn and practical engineering gives you the math & other knowledge fit for more technical positions and more specific programming (physics, rendering etc)
But it is an unusual path
tidal moth
math you can always google out, but it's harder to google technical approaches to problem solving
I did CS in uni
and while I don't work as a programmer the way of thinking I was taught is something I use every day
especially as a designer
nova tartan
You won't be able to google how to solve a given problem very easily unless its a very well defined common problem
Most of the time it's like
"I know how to solve this through experience and education but I need to google the small technical implementation details"
tidal moth
well yeah, that's basically what I said
nova tartan
it's not really a way of thinking though, moreso just understanding how computers work
also from experience googling math doesn't help a lot of the time because you don't know what the academic name of your problem might be
tidal moth
it's less about how computers work and more how systems work and interact with each other really
whether it's a computer based system or not is irrelevant really
and it is a way of thinking, understanding stuff like polymorphism, hierarchies and system architecture in general leaves you with a better understanding of how to compartmentalize your work and workflow
it teaches you how to think of the world in modules
at least that's what I got out of it
tender quartz
many roads may lead to one destination, you gotta find what works for you
iron cave
Someone who studied games as a degree. It was worthless to a major degree due to the fact that you can learn it all at home, but I finished it simply because the degree let's me study in other countries, and access to programs for free due to the student profile.
So honestly it's always better to do stuff that isn't game design related, and gradually move to that by practicing at home.
turbid pulsar
can you start working for a dev team with almost no experience?
flat gazelle
Yes
nova tartan
depends on your abilities, if you can't produce art assets or program, you have to look at it from their perspective and think why they would hire you
calm thorn
Get an internship
gentle stone
If you want to work with people who know what they are doing, no
if you want to work with beginners, sure
plucky hatch
Im finding it hard to find work I am looking everywhere, they are advertising for care workers at lot so I have gone for that but even they are asking experience sometimes
I have a job but no job security and they are giving me fewer hours
gloomy rose
Hey, are we allowed to make fun of some of the postings in #looking-for-talent ? Cause there's some comedy gold in there and I'd hate for it to be against server rules to riff on it.
nova tartan
I would say no, don't make fun of people in this server
gloomy rose
Alright. Thanks anyway.
spice dagger
@gloomy rose I suggest you read the #old-rules and act accordingly.
Act professionally and respectfully.
gloomy rose
Thanks, man.
tender quartz
Question for this channel: What’s the best way to display your portfolio?
tidal moth
simple and to the point. if you're an artist or a designer show off screenshots or gameplay videos first, then descriptive text or breakdowns of assets/areas
if you're a programmer, good luck
nova tartan
My experience with programming applications is you just put a github link and if they care they can check it out
(as a someone who's performed several rounds of hiring interviews and candidate review)
sharp hinge
As a programmer, it's important to show you've completed things
"I got half way through 10 hobbyist projects but got bored" is of 0 or negative value on a portfolio
gentle stone
I think 'completed' is the wrong term, but it's semantics really. You need to show that what you've done works, regardless of bugs or future improvements. If you are going to gate your game with a log in screen and it doesn't work, either make it functional or take the login screen out
tender quartz
All salient points. I've done a ton of work this year, and now would like to put some of it online to show the world my capabilities. As a place to point potential clients or employers to should I put it up on a website, Youtube, Behance or where?
nova tartan
what's your field of expertise? What kind of role do you want on a team? That might change how you show it off.
Usually any easy to click links in a resume get clicked by me, "I worked on this, here's a youtube video showing it off" I'll click that
If you aren't going to make it look good though don't put it on your resume, it'll make you look worse
tender quartz
UE generalist, VR specialist. I would aspire to be a technical artist.
plucky hatch
If you are expecting for a BEST WAY TO DO X... it doesnt exist. Especially in the design department. Everyone that will look at you portfolio will come from a different place.
tender quartz
Well I am always looking for empirical best practices, in all aspects of life generally and for sure in work
Of course I see you're point though, this is an art sometimes more than a science, and it lies in the eye of the beholder
plucky hatch
No. I meant many recruiters wont select your profile based on a portfolio. Many wont even understand what they are looking at. There are many factors that come into play. There is a reason why so many people complain about "recruitment" these days. And this isnt exclusive to video games.
It is true now just like it was 10 years ago...
plucky hatch
My advice is find what you really want to do. Focus on that. Keep applying until it happens. Because no matter what you apply for, it is very random. And some companies have a really really slow recruitment process while some others are blazing fast.
narrow vigil
So sort of along the same lines how much should you put onto your portfolio? Whether it is completed projects or works of art. I know you shouldn't clutter it up, but I've never really understood where to draw the line.
plucky hatch
only your best work
And enough pieces to inspire confidence that you will deliver
flat gazelle
A portfolio != A page where you try to round up clients for freelance work.
A protfolio is muich simpler.
tidal moth
@tender quartz nobody is going to hire someone that is "just" good at an engine, you need to focus on a discipline
plus technical art is considered more of an advanced role that will probably require you to spend some time being a 3d artist or a programmer in some capacity first
plucky hatch
O_o
It will definitely help you if you are a pro with UE4 specifically when applying for UE4 projects.
narrow vigil
So for completed projects would four or five be a decent number? Enough to show that you can complete projects but not enough to seem cluttered
west sonnet
Quality. Not quantity
vernal rune
Tech Artists are cool ppl
tender quartz
Sage advice fellas, thanks for the considered feedback
narrow vigil
I know quality not quantity, but I was looking for a number of projects that shows the ability to complete projects. Or would just a couple of projects be good?
tidal moth
just a couple is fine
nova tartan
Your two best projects will look better than your two best projects + 3 slightly worse ones
Whoever reviews the application will probably be a bit fatigued after seeing two
tidal moth
way less text
and show more of your content on the main page
pick a role
either you're a game designer or you're a programmer
pastel estuary
@tender quartz https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0JB7TSe49lg56u6qH8y_MQ/search?query=portfolio+killer watch the killer portfolio ones.
tender quartz
@pastel estuary thanks for sharing
plucky hatch
I find it very interesting that depending on where you apply, you have companies that are looking for some kind of prestige while others are really focused on skills/potential of the candidate.
plucky hatch
Ive seen some very creative designers being asked in interview for technical jobs (mainly python programming) they couldnt do without even having an available portfolio online. And they knew that didnt have the profile for the job.
fickle hatch
What do you mean @plucky hatch
steel creek
finding a good company is just like finding a good life partner. Most companies overestimate what they need and most applicants overestimate what they can do - just like a first date
zealous gyro
how and were do you find people to make a game with ive been trying but cant seem to find people
tidal moth
you don't, generally
you make a game as a single person
then at the end you might get help from another person
but that's about it
nova tartan
Does your city do game jams?
zealous gyro
no they dont not in a very big city sadly 😦
like i understand you cant just find anyone to make game with. like you have to get a connection with someone first but i would like to find people to do that with you know.. have made couple of games by my self but i would like to take to next level
nova tartan
As a hobby or as a job?
zealous gyro
will in the beginning a hobby but i would like to make it as my job.. thats why i wanna find some to make game with to get some type of income in
tidal moth
perhaps there'd be money in a "dating" service for game developers, where they can find each other for work
I think there may be some sites where you can advertise yourself as looking for work
but be prepared to sit through a lot of shit, since people aren't very good at working in games unless they have experience
and by experience I mean working in a studio or team environment
lilac walrus
they're called recruitment agencies
tidal moth
I meant more as in a hobbyist thing, not as in paid work necessarily
lilac walrus
(as an aside, websites like that have existed in the past, but they're never successful)
IndieDB has a jobs board as an example
plucky hatch
I really recommend that you find ways to get in touch with dev teams directly to find jobs. If the dev team wants you on board all together, it is a good way to get someone in.
But that also depends on the company structure/culture and how they approach recruitment.
plucky hatch
I thought being an indie was very hard and to be successful you need lots of experience + usually outside funding, so not viable career prospect but fine if a hobby, and easier route is to go pro but they also want experience + you need luck and also to focus highly on one area
barren lotus
Success isn't exclusively tied to experience and funding, Dante dropped out of college and built Onward VR by himself with no game dev experience or funding.
plucky hatch
A career in games is great if you live life solo and don't have kids
For no lifers
Because it really never stops
New version of Maya, new version of substance, new game engine, etc
It will eat your life
And depending on your current situation
Could be good, could be bad
It's difficult for me because this is my hobby, but it's difficult to find employment elsewhere, because they treat everything as a 'career' rather than a job, so the idea of having hobbies and things is alien to a lot of people
yeah
and I could make this my 'career' but firstly I am not that smart which I'm fine with, and secondly I don't even care that much lol
And if you make it a hobby and are working on X game, that could also be seen as a threat by employers
that or if you have a popular youtube channel
yes but how else to answer 'gaps in employment' questions
There isnt a magic answer
everyone will have different opinions about it
If you make indie game, they might think of you as less of an artist or programmer or designer because you do multiple things
And some people will see it as a very good thing
You just never know
Yes that is true I would find it hard to specialise because I like to be involved in the whole of a project, except music
But for large companies it's more profit I suppose to have very specialised people
From experience, the greatest minds Ive met were often involved with the main 3 spheres
- Art
- Design
- Coding
It wasnt making them less of anything
And that's the difference between a generalist and a polymath
or a multi-disciplinary specialist
This isnt widely accepted in the video games industry
which is weird considering how everything is interconnected in video games
I think generally people who do multiple things are not the best at those things, so probably better for hirers to take 3 specialists in 3 areas than 3 generalists. But it's more fun for me to be involved in many places 🙂
I dont see it that way
I see it as anyone can be a Game Dev at large, but for production and saving time, we all focus on specific tasks
I do see a small advantage in seeing how different aspects of the game interlink
Personally, during my career several people came to me and tried to discourage me to dive into other fields.
Claiming it would be impossible, would be too difficult, wouldn't be feasible or nothing good could come out of it
But they didnt understand why I was doing it either
Well on a small scale indie project makes much more sense than on a huge game
I disagree
I mean... making a game yourself would be harder than joining an AAA team
but yeah, making a small indie game is better than making a huge impossible one
What I meant is making a game is hard. Almost impossible solo
ALMOST
I think you mean
kindred mason
Nothing is impossible unless you make it so
plucky hatch
'Making a good game'
:p
I could have made a game ten times over.
But it would have been shitty too.
I wanted more.
kindred mason
Also, sometimes... people... just... talk... too... freaking... much...
Less talk, more action. Or you won't be finishing up anything.
kindred mason
No, in general. I thought I was adding to the conversation
plucky hatch
XD
kindred mason
Maybe not?
plucky hatch
No it's true
I met many devs who wanted to make their dream games
but didnt have the will power to do so
Yeah it's easy to rest on your laurels, gloat on your achievements etc and not tackle stuff
learn the different disciplines
kindred mason
So...
plucky hatch
and learn how to make games by first breaking down their own creative barriers
kindred mason
There's a difference between able to do your dream game now... and knowing that you could do your dream game in the future
plucky hatch
Who you are as a designer or artist or coder is different
from what you would be as a... I know it all
kindred mason
Sometimes people try to do their dream game as their first release...
plucky hatch
first I need a secure job, then I'll worry about working on another project
river copper
"Don't think! Feel. It is like a finger pointing a way to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."
plucky hatch
Yes you do
You do need a high paying job to ensure you have freedom and free time
and money to pay the bills, PCs, etc
whatever
kindred mason
I'm not saying it's not impossible to do... but it would be easier to do a for-sure doable game, learn from the experience, build upon your skills, and get to the level where you can do your dream game
Especially if it requires multiple people 🙂
plucky hatch
well my last game was a failure commercially. I spent 6 months making it and although I had no illusions it was going to make decent money just how badly it did surprised me, I thought I would get around 10 buyers at least. But if I say so myself I am improving A LOT every time I make something.
kindred mason
Especially if you're trying to be the boss and running the whole project
plucky hatch
well for my next I would be fine with 2-3 people and also hiring a musician near the end
plucky hatch
Or maybe indies don't know how to do business
kindred mason
Depends
kindred mason
No, but big companies have money 😉
kindred mason
Money to spend $$$ on PR/Marketing
plucky hatch
That's one style
I think it's just only the top games do well, rather than it being linear, most games make nothing and the top 1% make LOADS
Do you think Valve has to invest in marketing to sell their games?
Steam is theirs
plucky hatch
but I can understand people only want to play good games because I was having the same feeling myself. I would much rather get into something meaty and good that cost $20 than 20 crappy $1 games
kindred mason
Just because they have Steam, doesn't mean much
But sure, having Steam is crazy good exposure for them
plucky hatch
If you have Steam, you have revenues.
You own the Steam app and adds
you can put your game on front page anytime
you want
You control your own sales
yeah but the game just isn't that good
plucky hatch
Im just saying... what do you need to sell games?
An audience
But what can you do to build such audience?
kindred mason
And how do you typically get an audience?
plucky hatch
Plus, an audience that fits with the products that you want to sell?
kindred mason
You need visibility
How do you get visibility?
You need people playing your game, talking about it?
plucky hatch
Well I'm not really the person to 'sell my personality', BUT if I worked really hard on a game and was convinced it was actually good, I could market it. It's just marketing feels sleazy if you aren't convinced the product is actually good.
kindred mason
How do you accomplish that? Well, sure there are some freeish options, and sometimes you get lucky with viral hype
But...the sureway, PR/Marketing campaigns.
plucky hatch
A business needs to be sustainable.
There is a start and a period of growth
kindred mason
Paying Influencers to play your game
plucky hatch
You don't need 50,000 buyers on an external platform
You can build your own platform and build your own audience
kindred mason
(of course, you could always try to get some influencers to play you game for free...but I wonder how long those lists are 😉 )
plucky hatch
There are several ''Steam-like'' platforms on the Web
Companies that have built their own market
plucky hatch
Yes, you do
kindred mason
You don't get visibility Day One
plucky hatch
I tried kartridge and it's a nice platform but it's so few users. Even the best, really well-made games hardly have any reviews
The earlier ,the better
My neighbor owns a restaurant and he complains about how expensive it is to run VS tech companies
all the food and stuff.
a lot of work
If you own an online marketplace...
Create the product, leave it there
that's about it
you want to maintain it? update it? your call
But your business expands as you add games
and you can publish games you have not made yourself
and players or modders can add free value to your platform
Yeah but this is just ,how to make money, not how to make games :p
How do you make games if you arent making money?
You make games to make money to make games
lol
You don't
of course you want to make money
But you are also talking about using other peoples' games to make money
You need money and generate money to make games faster
What Im saying is, game devs should stop thinking that they are in the business of making ''games''
Because you arent going anywhere with that approach
Fail once, you are dead.
Boss Key... is dead
well isn't that the point? I mean most indies want to make money from games, if you are making money from other sources then that's fine but you are no longer making games...
Of course you can do both at the same time
The point is you don't just want to make games.
In order to make games, you need buyers.
So the most important thing is to build your pool of buyers
How? the answer depends on what profile you are targeting
barren lotus
If your main motive for making games is to make money gamers will be able to sniff that out, and is probably a big part of your problem
plucky hatch
Well yeah but how long before the actual game becomes irrelevant? Why be in the game biz at all in that case?
The goal isn't to make money
it's to build a SUSTAINABLE BUSINESS
One that wont crash if your game fails
That's why you have companies like Ubisoft and Gameloft focusing on multiple games
That's why Valve... owns steam
that's why Epic sells game engines and has a store now
which has been their strategy for like 20 years
long term game
plan
- making games
- making game engine
- Store
I'm not saying making money is unethical, just this is more general advice on how to get rich and not to develop games
See, I wrote money and some of you concluded it was about getting rich
Money isnt the enemy
Money is what you need to speed things up
that's a vehicle, it's all it is
barren lotus
Hold a regular day job and make games in your free time, distinction between hobby and career shouldn't be giving up your day job on a gamble
barren lotus
Gunpoint dev was a journalist who didn't really like his job and worked on the game for several years
for a couple hours a week
river copper
I've gone for the full roll the dice gamble
plucky hatch
@barren lotus yeah I agree with you the problem is most employers want you to be 'passionate' about your crappy day job and it's hard to fake that if what you really care about is making games. You will fail their personality profiles because you'll be seen as a weirdo
barren lotus
Would you want to work at a company like that though?
plucky hatch
If you want to play smart, you might want to first build a website and sell gambling games
Generate income and then move to what you really want to do as your income increases
well if im desperate them um yeah ofc
A friend of mine makes AAA games, but was working on a side project, a mobile game
because he thought it would be the best way to start up
I dont agree, but if that's what he felt was right
it's a business move
not his dream game
just a business move
I would happily chop fu*king logs or something for a living but this kind of 'casual' (even if boring or strenuous) work doesn't really exist any more
gritty hill
plucky hatch
My recommendation is always, find a high paying job that allows you to have a lot of free time
Then make games during your spare time.
And dont have a family.
If you do else...
Then dont cry.
XD
Some people will just live poor and make indie games
They'll wake up 40 years later thinking yeah, I should have done it differently
I should have invested 3-4 years building a business and then I would have been free
lol idc about being poor just stable in money
since my current job is 0 hour contract and I have no security
If you are a programmer, you have more ways to make money than everyone else do
And look, the whole ''ethical game dev'' thing.
I get it.
But the reality is...
You need to generate income to work on the game you want.
river copper
I don't know ... as much as i like money I didn't even start a career until I was 28 ... had fun times around the world when I was younger and don't really regret anything.
definately not a business man 😛
plucky hatch
It is very common that you will see people that will create questionable products or platforms just get off the ground running
Porn, gambling, weird addictive Facebook apps
whatever it is
Then it helps them build revenues, they can live off it
and they can make the games they want
For some people... Youtube Channel did it alone
You know yourself better than we do. You probably know what your options are
lol porn isn't questionable.... only if you feel you are forced into porn because of financial situation I find that very worrying
What Im highlighting is simply that you cant stop the world for doing stupid stuff
Some people invest in anything
You shouldnt feel bad if you take advantage of this situation to get yourself started in business
There is a bad side to everything
Video games are addictive and can eat your life
We ignore it, because we love games
But it's not all ethical
--
@plucky hatch
So what kind of games do you like to make?
or what kind of games would you like to make?
My last game was like Astroneer but more amateur
It was set in space.
I was thinking my next game would be about bees and wasps and multiplayer, with more focus on one or two game modes (my last one had multiple game modes). Interestingly I saw a bee themed game on Steam recently, priced quite high too
multiplayer with campaign mode as well
So you are into weird games 😛
XD
yeah idk why I had that idea but I was thinking like Rome:Total War insect version
But why is it what you want to do?
idk why not? Because I thought a cool name up for it
Vesp
copyright me
Why not? Again. There are different types of game devs or game companies.
Some devs or companies just want to make what the hell they want to make.
And they HOPE that it will sell.
Ultimately, they either end up selling games that... well don't sell well.
Or.. to our greatest surprise will release the game that will pioneer a new genre.
And then you have the devs that study the market and do their best to create something that can have mass appeal.
yeah but I think ideas are sometimes a bit random like that. I could spend forever coming up with the 'perfect' game and it just be crap. Why not just roll with a floating idea
It will be better than my last for sure due to more experience. Will it sell? Probably no. Will be fun though
But would it be possible to merge both making something for fun + making a commercial success?
Sometimes, it's not possible
But Im asking if it is
river copper
I found it quite strange how much my game has had to change from my original concept
plucky hatch
idk it's to do with experience man, I am getting better each time but maybe I need another game until I get good enough to actually get money from it
and I need to properly learn source control and maybe substance, also improve knowledge of multiplayer, I learnt some stuff past week tho
Ill start Jan
Im all for gaining the experience.
ALl im saying is if you know what people are looking for or what will trigger them
It's not about being good
It's about creating the right thing at the right time for the right people
Who knew Angry Birds would sell
or Minecraft
or Fortnite
idk you have hits like Flappy Bird then you have stuff like Hollow Knight which is just really good
river copper
right thing at the right time though...we cant see the future
plucky hatch
so either you get reallly lucky or you just make a really good game
river copper
I cant believe there are still 4 million plus still playing fortnite
river copper
ahh fibbonacci
plucky hatch
If you know the past... and the present, you can tell what tomorrow will be
barren lotus
You suggested business owners sit around all day not doing anything with lots of free time, and now saying Rovio and Notch were concerned about market trends more than just making a fun game they wanted to play 
plucky hatch
"Innovation is found at the cross-roads of multiple disciplines"
river copper
things usually happen in cycles ... things go out of style ... then come back around again
plucky hatch
What im saying is there are thousand ways to make games and stay in business for years to come
Making games... and just making games
is just 1 path
And it often leads to failure
Make a business hire devs and exploit their surplus labor
Because if you make 1 game at a time, that's a big risk of failure
If you make 3 games at a time... 1 failure is less risky
It's about cash flow
river copper
I see your point but I hope to make a fun game instead of 3 shitty ones
plucky hatch
That's why gameloft runs so well by making all those games that aren't top 10
They cover various markets
and they keep making money
they are steady
So they keep making games
river copper
gameloft have been established for a long time now and have huge budgets to develop multiple games
plucky hatch
Dude, I was there when they started making 3D games on iPhone
It worked because they put themselves out there and took the space
And they had enough budget for it
And back then it was nowhere near what they must be spending now
bye
river copper
yeah the trouble is now that space is alot more crowded
plucky hatch
What space? how many companies can make the games that gameloft makes now?
They own the space
the AAA mobile space
But they got there
They didnt start there
It started there
river copper
I meant game making space in general .... not alot of room
river copper
yep pretty much
plucky hatch
And then they saw Call of Duty sell like crazy on consoles
And went... what if we can make FPS work on smart phones
And that was pretty much the start.
of FPS on smart phones, that and NOVA
There werent many FPS on mobile before those
They all sucked.
2009 Modern Combat: Sandstorm iOS, Android, webOS, Bada
2010 Modern Combat 2: Black Pegasus iOS, Android, Xperia Play, BlackBerry PlayBook
2011 Modern Combat: Domination PlayStation Network, macOS
2011 Modern Combat 3: Fallen Nation iOS, Android, Bada 2.0, BlackBerry PlayBook
2012 Modern Combat 4: Zero Hour iOS, Android, Windows Phone 8, Blackberry 10, BlackBerry PlayBook
2014 Modern Combat 5: Blackout iOS, tvOS, Android, Windows 8.1, Windows 10, Nintendo Switch
2017 Modern Combat: Versus iOS, Android, Windows 8.1, Windows 10, Steam
I cant speak for mobile gaming as never been a fan myself ...but I get your point
plucky hatch
It had to start somewhere
So, Gameloft studied the console market and created Mobile equivalent games for Smart Phone gamers
They built for themselves a market
And THAT is something you can all do as well when making indie games
👌
It is part of game design
river copper
thinking of a new market in this time is as hard as finding a new game genre
haughty ginkgo
Hello there, everyone. I am a noob here. Any course to get started.
Recommendation.
plucky hatch
barren lotus
Epic Games template projects for technical, GDC vault for design
haughty ginkgo
Okay, thanks. It will take time for me to get familiar. 
haughty ginkgo
Intermediate CPP and Java.
plucky hatch
Oh, so that's pretty good
haughty ginkgo
Yes, I'm starting from scratch.
plucky hatch
And why are you getting into game dev?
Do you have interest to make games by yourself from A to Z?
barren lotus
To make money, isnt that the only reason
plucky hatch
Or do you have the intention of becoming a game programmer or else?
haughty ginkgo
I was seeing The Cherno channel, but he mostly creates game engines which too much for me as a beginner
plucky hatch
If you want to make money, video games might be one of the slowest way to do so
haughty ginkgo
Yes, you are right. So true.
One youtuber was saying the same.
Where should I get started? Unreal or JMonkey??
plucky hatch
Always depends on your end goal
Making game engines isnt making games
You already got UE4
you can make games
Each game you make will take a lot of time to make from A to Z properly
haughty ginkgo
Yes, just downloaded it. Completely new to me. No experience with UI. I think I should see beginner courses by Epic first.
plucky hatch
If you want to make X type of game, you would be better to go through several game prototypes to learn the fundamentals that you need to make that X game you want
That's why I dont actually encourage people to copy like.. 10 classic games
before making their dream games
haughty ginkgo
Is it okay? Should I copy?
plucky hatch
why not
Just know yourself and what your end game is
Then you'll know where to invest your time
If I want to make a FPS, im not going to make megaman games
haughty ginkgo
Want to make just a simple platformer like bomberman as a learning experience. Is there any github source you can recommend for the same.
haughty ginkgo
Okay, thanks for your time. ::blessed::
plucky hatch
If you are new to Unreal Engine 4
Then I suggest you learn the basic of how to use UE4 first.
Get an overview of the engine, the tools available, workflow, pipeline
And learn the basics of a bit everything to prototype games yourself on your own
How to create an object in blender, export it to UE4
add materials
Dont need to look good
just be functional
How do you rig a cubic character
How can you animate it?
How to export it
to UE4
Visual effects? How do you create them? How to get them into UE4?
Audio, sound FX, music tracks
What tools are free?
What tools do you need to pay for?
haughty ginkgo
Oops, I forgot blender. Installing it now. I used it previously. Seems like I will not be able to take part in current MEGAJAM.
plucky hatch
I cover some of those here
http://skilljutsu.com/views/gamedev-general-software.html
But you should be able to get most apps for free for the most part
Let's be honest, FREE is great 😉
It's the first part of FREEDOM
😛
haughty ginkgo
As a learning experience, I backed a Kickstarter project last year. They created this amazing game.
Ninja Chowdown
plucky hatch
I like blender a lot, I actually got used to the right click lol and they changed it so now will need to get reused to that
spice dagger
@haughty ginkgo Please no KS links thanks
haughty ginkgo
Okay.
pastel estuary
@graceful sandal please read the rules
this should go into #looking-for-talent
read the pinned message there.
thanks
graceful sandal
But this channel is read only
pastel estuary
"read the pinned message there."
graceful sandal
Thanks , last question , how do I message to unreal bot ?
pastel estuary
he's in the member list on the right
under the forum mods.
@plucky hatch , just send him a dm message.
west sonnet
pastel estuary
be sure to keep the message ready
graceful sandal
Thanks a lot 👍🏽
vocal meadow
i can call unrealbot? (hope it accepts my friends request)
pastel estuary
unrealbot is shy
vocal meadow
must just be slow to reply to friends requests.
nova hill
Most studios have a bunch of jobs focused on individual areas like modelers, animators, level designers, et cetera, instead of having 1 person doing many things right?
kindred mason
Actually, if you can find me one person who can do everything
For cheap
Let me know
west sonnet
Cases that have someone doing multiple disciplines are within a small indie studio
kindred mason
^
However, I would say that there's nothing wrong with being duo-disciplined in some regards
Like Character Modeler/Rigger/Animator
(I guess that's kinda triple)
kindred mason
I know folks who are only Character Artists, only riggers, only animators
west sonnet
It’s certainly important to have familiarity. Especially to avoid the next guy down the pipeline from strangling you 😜
nova hill
I have a game I've been working on myself, and need to know what kind of person to hire/bring on for help. I need someone who can do many things, has multiplayer exp, and can help me launch the sucker and make the single player once beta is going
or alpha
kindred mason
And while, yes, you can do that. And find some really nice jobs.
You'll be competing for those spots only against however many others
nova hill
I don't want to look for an indie studio or large studio job, I want to bring someone on to help me. I don't have my own studio yet
but my game is in the last parts of creation before recruiting players
I need more time than I have by myself
like if I were to post an ad, would I just look for a well rounded developer with multiplayer experience
I assume the biggest thing to look for would be their portfolio/projects?
west sonnet
Take the time to make your portfolio. You’re not going to attract many (if any) worthwhile clients by slapping a free price tag. The results from working with them is often less than stellar. They generally have a low bar of quality
celest summit
Bruh, I just spent 2 months in your exact situation. Do the personal projects (which I know you're more passionate about). As @west sonnet said, low quality clients = low quality work. What's your financial situation like?
Np. Do whatever you can to gain stability. Get a job in retail, ask friends or family if you can move in, rent a place with roommates, etc. You may or may not lose some respect in your social circle, but it doesn't matter. Cause nothing beats coming home and being able to say, with 100% certainty, that you are going to work on your project.
balmy zealot
@celest summit Renting a place with roommates has been the one thing that has saved me tons of money. You essentially “rent a room” but get to use the house obviously. Works well especially in a region where rent is super high.
broken hollow
What's the usual recruiting process for a level design position? I am currently giving a design test for Treyarch but don't have a clue about what comes next.
lilac walrus
If they like your output they will ask you to do an interview
Usually you get the test after a Skype call or whatever (if you did not do that yet, that is next)
After that will be an on-site interview
broken hollow
I see, I heard there is an on-site interview but didn't know there could be a Skype interview beforehand. I did have a little "chat" with the HR Person before the test though
Thanks, though!
steep orchid
@balmy zealot me and some buddies are thinking about doing that
we are basically 2 couples (or 3 if the other joins in)
and renting a big big house like
4 rooms
is like 1200€
so if you take 1200€ and divide it by 6
you get 200€ per month on rent
with pool and stuff lmao
meanwhile a single room house can get to 500-600€ per month
and that fits like two people lol
so you end up paying 250-300€ per person
if you know your room mates and have a good relationship with them it can work i guess
as long as everyone takes up their collection of chores etc
balmy zealot
That’s the way to go dude
steep orchid
so basically
you end up with better housing conditions
more rooms , bigger house
pool
vs a single T1 room lmao
balmy zealot
That’s the idea lol
wild flame
what country is that tho
and what city
because where i live its wayyyy more for a 4 room 😂
lilac walrus
lol, 1200 euros is like normal rent here for a one room apartment
vernal wolf
1200 euros here isn't enough for a studio
lilac walrus
one room = studio, but yeah
I've seen a few that weren't big enough to put a bed in 😂
wild flame
ikr right ahahah
where is that 1200 euros for 4 rooms ima move there 😂
@lilac walrus no one room means there is one room for the bed
studio means the bedroom is also where you have the kitchen
i think
lilac walrus
here one room literally means one room
wild flame
bruh
lilac walrus
one room, not bedroom
lilac walrus
nope
wild flame
huh , yes ...
lilac walrus
(I've been apartment hunting here for weeks)
wild flame
and ?
lilac walrus
one room means one room
wild flame
one room is like a F1 do you agree
or T1 bis
yes or no
if one room was meaning one room
then we wouldnt use studio
lilac walrus
they don't use studio here
wild flame
where do you live
wild flame
well in other parts of the world a one room isnt like a studio
hybrid phoenix
A studio is usually just... A bedroom with its own kitchen and bathroom... Whether that be with a door in between or just a single large room
Also the heck is F1 and T1
wild flame
its a flat where you have one room that serves only one purpose , appart from the living room
usually called one room here
sometimes its the bedroom , sometimes the kitchen
vernal wolf
jesus christ real estate semantics are cultural
wild flame
😏
wild flame
lol what do you use
wild flame
i prefer typing flat
vernal wolf
yeah, its cultural
wild flame
well not really i just learned english that way , my teacher always insisted with flat
wild flame
no its universal
vernal wolf
@hybrid phoenix in this case, yes
dense isle
haha, studio or flat .... what about 2.5,3.5 etc ? FYI 3.5 is one bedroom app
daring parrot
Lol these prices. 750 here rents a house
(too bad the only reason to live here is because housing is cheap)
shut tree
wild flame
@daring parrot what country is that lol
daring parrot
US 👍
plucky hatch
anyone else find it much easier to focus if they work in a voice call or in the same room as others focusing on a project (even if it isn't the same one)? I've found that that's the case for me. I'm in the voice channel down below working on implementing audio if anyone wants to join me.
vernal kraken
@plucky hatch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7ZZp8XuUTE
vernal kraken
it helps some people 😉
vernal kraken
personally i'am more a fan of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9zUkNBGVhs
also agree: open office plans are evil
modest grotto
Well, if we're posting music that helps us work... this is a favorite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE91yIXd6KQ
tidal moth
@vernal kraken good choice, it's my go to music for working
pastel estuary
@tall nexus this is a channel talking about working in the industry
Also, why not just contact them
they are very friendly people
tall nexus
i dont have a way to contact them, i tried looking for discord server but nothing shows up
tall nexus
oh my bad
west sonnet
Wrong channel
tall nexus
kk soz
lyric coyote
Hi guys, i would like to ask you for some piece of advice. I hope it's correct channel. I'm currently learning programming with ue4, but I had only done some curses on udemy. After this I don't realy know how to move forward. To the question: What would you expect form junior developer applying for a job? I'm mostly concerned of what kind of test project i should create, and what it should contain. Previously I was only intern for 2 months at mobile game unity company. Hope this question isn't mentioned every friday. I'll appreciate every help
tidal moth
generally if you have been on a couple of projects and understand the lay of the land you'll be fine. I'm not a programmer, but figuring out how to make a gameplay system (let's say interaction/inventory) would be a good way to show that you are capable of creating a proof of concept
but it depends on what kind of programmer you want to end up as
core tech you need to do more deep diving, gameplay programmer just make efficient systems
@lyric coyote
lyric coyote
I'm looking forward to be a gameplay programmer. But it's still troubling to me, when to decide that the state and mechanics of the project are enough to get accepted. That's why I'm trying to look for some more details
tidal moth
@lyric coyote if you show you can make complex systems that work together efficiently I'd say that's as good as it gets for when hiring a junior
lyric coyote
Look like I will have to try. I will write again when I will have something to show. Thanks for Your time
digital gate
Am gameplay programmer @lyric coyote. Personally, I'd expect to be able to hand you a mechanic that needs to be made from the ground up, and you generally handle it.
Not for your first 'project' on the game, and not entirely on your own, but having the capacity to handle it from start to end.
wheat hinge
So I've ran a contract studio for 5 years now solo contracting myself out to other larger companies and recently found that I've been pricing myself pretty low in comparison to employee positions which are typically lower pay than contract ones. So my question is: Will people share their experience/portfolio and general range of rate when they work contract?
(Specifically for engineers)
flat gazelle
I'm happy to share what my freelance rates were, but I'm not a beginner.
pastel estuary
Glad is an end boss
scenic cloak
@lyric coyote in my opinion, to be a solid gameplay programmer in Unreal you need to have a good foundation in math, specifically geometry (vectors and matrices, dot products, etc), as well as data structures (going beyond arrays, how to partition data and reference it properly).
At heart, most gameplay work is either spatial reasoning (how do I aim at my enemy) and fetching data (I need to figure out the buff that's applied to the character when they get hit and some other modifiers that are stored all over the place)
In Unreal you need to be able to function in C++, I doubt you can limit yourself to Blueprints.
In your case, I'd study how the Ability plugin functions (not just how to use it, read the code for how it's implemented)
pastel estuary
read
the
rules
near reef
ok
plucky hatch
can somebody help me with projectile movement?
radiant canyon
in career chat ?
plucky hatch
oh
steel creek
@brune 20 years vfx, tv pipeline. 50$-75$/hr depending on what.
wheat hinge
@flat gazelle i don't think I'd call myself new to the industry but it's all relative. Would you want to share your rates in private?
@steel creek interesting, thank you.
To put it in perspective I'm a "full" stack engineer which just means I have a lot of experiences with web backend as well as gameplay and game engine. So my prices ranged from 60k to 91k. Getting an employee position in socal I'm at 110k. Talking with others even at my work it sounds like I should be at 125k. Talking with those outside of my company I'm getting 130k to 140k range. So it feels like contracting I should be able to go to 170k to 200k.
flat gazelle
10+ years as vfx artist. Baserate for shorter gigs, less than a week, 90usd/h.
For longer, full-time gigs, 3 months or so, I could go as low as 65.
wheat hinge
Ahh okay cool. Lots of well experienced vfx artists.
tidal moth
yeah apparently they're all hiding out on this discord 🤔
pastel estuary
VFX artist, 5-ish years (in ue4)
give or take 50-75 euro/hour (depending on variables/tax treaties and such)
covert viper
Hi everyone, i am trying to figure what would be the best method to integrate c++ and blueprints in a single project. I would like to know whats things should be implemented on c++ instead of blueprints and vice versa. Thank you for your help.
digital gate
pastel estuary
speaking about rates, just got this spam in my email.
https://i.gyazo.com/f10093dd915e5c06c601e231e278fec4.png
cya all on the flipside, im gonna be rich!
west sonnet
What? Pennies per hour?
brisk hearth
@west sonnet well earned quarters 😛
fickle hatch
It's probably per month, which is a more common way of specifying salary in many parts of the world
plucky hatch
Oh, I got several emails recently for jobs (remote at home)
And Im very afraid that those are just criminals trying to get your personal info.
I was baffled, because I really wasn`t expecting stuff like this from common Job Hunting websites
You can`t know for sure.
Also, a guy from a different city right next to mine claimed to be working for X agency. We had a video interview and everything and then I checked with the actual agency in my city and there was no existing File under my name at that so called Agency.
So as far as Im concerned, that could have been a totally fake recruiter.
working for himself, but pretending to be part of a big company
pastel estuary
we've banned one person a while back doing just that.
plucky hatch
If it was the other way around, it would sound bad 😛
mental ruin
Including a CertHE (Certificate of Higher Education) after passing a year at university in your CV/resume, yay or nay?
nova tartan
I just say I'm attending university and what year I am in
or I did when I was back in uni
hybrid phoenix
I'm guessing he means the certification you can get when you quit after a year
hallow lagoon
Im not looking for anybody just yet, but what kind of prices do Programmers go for? Like what would some of you guys personally charge
hybrid phoenix
Depending on the job prices range anywhere from ~$20/h to $100/h
I really wouldn't recommend for people to charge <20/h
But some people do
hallow lagoon
Alright doesn't sound too too bad
hybrid phoenix
$20/h is, in my opinion, the absolute lowest you should be paying a programmer
But that's just me ;3
hallow lagoon
Was asking cause i may need help in the future and i only have 300 dollars in my account. I wanna know if I should start saving up a lot more which is a definite yes
But tt
Ty*
hybrid phoenix
As a rule of thumb, the less time you need someone, the more it'll cost per hour
west sonnet
unless you're hiring a kid, they'll go triple that price
hybrid phoenix
Unfortunately the current market makes it difficult to actually charge what we should be charging, in my experience
west sonnet
indeed
hybrid phoenix
I tend to get "Sorry someone else bid lower" on most of my jobs
Which is okay for me, because I don't need the cash
But if I did, I'd be forced to lower my rates
digital gate
It's really hard to convince someone to not go for the $5/hr people sometimes. Makes it way easier when they want to pay you to fix that and you can just add $5 to your rate
daring parrot
I'd say that you could take $5 off your rate, but realistically it adds that much more work to clean up before starting work
digital gate
And that's why
wise rampart
$5 sounds like few money, but there are countries where $5 per hour is a lot, like Argentina or Venezuela that are actually in crisis, so that is why they acept that pay, because that is a lot for them.
mossy pine
Hmm. And here I am just trying to be a part of a solid team.
bronze dew
asking to much 😉 j/k
river copper
if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
nova tartan
As a software developer in a low-mid cost of living north american city(1200 CAD a month for downtown 2 bedroom), 50$/Hour is roughly what I make, and I am full time.
For contract work, 35$/Hour is probably the lowest any person with a degree would accept in my city, even fresh
I guess you can probably pay less if you have that perk of "working for video games" because it's a better sell than working for an insurance company
hybrid phoenix
And that's exactly why people get paid horribly around here
bronze dew
Know your worth... remember they are making money off you so you deserve to be paid properly
What do you do @nova tartan ?
hybrid phoenix
Props are "re-usable" (non-specific to a particular game)
That depends on the contract you would have with them
If you put in their contract that any assets they get access to for the company's projects aren't allowed to be used for anything other than company projects, then they're not useable outside of the company
Or at least, if they use them they're using stolen properties
If you assign rights for those assets to your employees, yes, they can use them themselves for whatever they want
Any assets in gamedev have whatever license you assign to them as owner
hybrid phoenix
Correct
But then if you just have four employees, for instance
I'd say it's pretty easy to keep track of the games they're making and to see whether they're using your assets
If you're working with four other employees, you can just look at the other stuff they're making and see if it re-uses assets it shouldn't
Because there's not exactly a lot
And for larger studios, either you stop caring or you have systems in place to keep people from taking assets off their work-pc's
I do mind
I really don't see what you think the issue is :v
If you're an employer with a handful employees, just keep track of what they're doing with their life. If they release another game, make sure that you know
lilac walrus
if you don't trust your employees, you shouldn't hire them in the first place
hybrid phoenix
^ That's also a very valid point
lilac walrus
references, etc
also the interview process is useful to get a feel for someone's personality
no, I mean references
character references, from previous employers or whatever
ashen lynx
@plucky hatch Realistically, you have 3 options. First, hiring ones who are within legal reach and ensuring enforceability of whatever terms you lay down. (Note, that it varies greatly from country to country and in most cases, you will not be able to reimburse your losses to full extent). Second would be restricting access to minimum parts required. Your programmer does not need to have access to full quality art assets. Third would be relying on professional reputation of the personnel you contract and not worrying too much.
karmic kayak
How would an Anti Cheat prevent people from using the assets tho?
Also: i doubt monitoring people will work out.
ashen lynx
If you are establishing indie studio, and considering in-place security measures, it will increase the changes of drowning.
Darn, ethernet port on a padlock still gives me shivers. brrr.
karmic kayak
another question raises... How will you even monitoring people?
Have a custom monitoring tool? 😄
with a tracking collar you provide?
daring parrot
But also what do you care if they do steal grass clumps
Is it worth the trouble of monitoring employees with a hawk eye esp as a very small business owner
chrome bone
@plucky hatch We have had probably 100 employees over the years as an indie and as far as I know the incidents of "borrowing" from the studio are so few its not even cost effective to try to monitor. Plus.. value is almost always in the sum of the parts.. not any one thing.
flat gazelle
Add to contract that they agree to be put to death if caught stealing. No reappeal.
Then rely on trust
plucky hatch
hey, this might seem like a weird question, but would anyone here who currently has a job in software development or game development be willing to do a short 6-question interview (can be over text)
I need to talk to someone in a career I'm interested in for a college success thing
bronze dew
it's not strange... but the biggest thing I can say is this... it's not an easy career choice at all. Not to say don't try however
ember plover
Imo dont put a monitoring tool in, especially if the developer/creator knows it's there. I planned to leave because I felt like I had someone watching over me so they offered part time at home so I dont leave. I'm a lot more productive doing the job and part of it is the fact I dont feel I have someone staring at the back of my head.
I know you guys are talking about IP theft but the knock on effect is just an overall sense of surveillance lol
west sonnet
Eh, still not seeing much of a point to surveillance. Systems rarely work well outside of a project regardless.
vocal meadow
especially if the developer/creator knows it's there
Pretty sure if they aren't agreeing/aware of your monitoring you would be committing a crime.
regal folio
So, basically hiring freelance or remote work, especially artist freelancer is mostly bad idea? Since a lot of this have to rely on trust.
west sonnet
Do everything yourself /s
flat gazelle
Ndas are there for this reason
fickle hatch
I don't think hiring a freelancer/remote work is a bad idea, but distancing yourself from them is definitely is
People are social creatures and without tight interaction with your remote workers (or some sort of a framework in which you two work), even if they are the best guy out there, they'll lose the sense of their tasks
A contract is a strong message that hopefully stays in the back of the contractors head and your work gets completed, but even doing everything proper by the book won't magically make everything work out
I like a kind of a "bad cop - good cop" approach, my business partner is the mean "do everything by the book" guy who gives our contractors the contracts and such, gives them strict instructions and acts mean when he has to, keeps things professional and separate, but I give each contractor a back channel (in form of being able to talk to me) where they have an atmosphere of freedom to talk about anything that bothers them. They don't fully realize it, but when they report problems through the back-channel, we resolve them together with the business partner
So there's both some (normal) pressure on the contractor - he signed a contract, he has a sense of responsibility, there is money at stake for him in the job etc, and a way to get feedback from the contractors that they would otherwise be scared to bring up (people tend to get secretive and conceal their failures under pressure sort of a thing)
So... if you gotta put more pressure on your contractors for one or other reason, make sure there exists a comparably strong back channel for them to voice their real opinions and concerns. A monitoring tool sounds like an attempt to put pressure without creating a back channel, isolate yourself from your contractors and sounds like a recipe for a disaster
kindred mason
Interesting conversation
I definitely will need to do a 30-page postmortem after shipping Neko Ghost, Jump! but I have 9 developers working for me, I use remote time tracking (includes screenshots and other things), and do daily standups on Discord. Everyone is remote (all over the world). We use Jira and Confluence for project management. Honestly after the first week or so, people just get used to how things are run. Sometimes people aren't the right fit, either they go, or you have to show them the door.
Life is all about taking risks...Indie Game Dev...even more so. Up to you how you want to run your business anyway. You do you, and if it works, great! If it doesn't, reevaluate and try something different.
So basically, I'm like some of you fine folk's worst nightmare it looks like 😉 Or you're all just talk and haven't actually experienced how a fully functional, realized and properly managed project can be under those conditions.
fickle hatch
My experience is that doing daily standups and getting feedback in form of screenshots and other things is one of the most correct things you're doing here
You can use any tool no matter how inappropriate for management, the communication and social aspect of it has always seemed like the key to me
kindred mason
Yes. A lot of people these days are "introverts", but actually want to socialize.
Human nature dictates we aren't truly introverted anyway. We need to have sex and procreate. We crave socialization.
Interactions (standups/meetings), especially on a daily level allow people to follow a routine.
ashen lynx
Do you check desktop icon layout of your employees during standups ?
kindred mason
You don't want to be sitting on a blocker for days anyway.
Desktop icon layout?
I could care less what they are doing during our standup. Hopefully they are paying attention. I have too much on my plate to be that detailed.
ashen lynx
And if any icon is out of place, your re-shuffle them and order them to sort it again ?
kindred mason
I just want to know what they have done, what they need, what they will work on next and if they have any blockers.
I have been trying to make our standups as short as possible. Quick and to the point. Sometimes that doesn't happen.
Especially Mondays (Sprint Planning day).
fickle hatch
Btw, we mostly share screenshots (many times a day) and do text-based progress reports combined with discord-based weekly meetings
So similar stuff
I don't think there's any one right way, but 1) sharing media is fun, 2) talking is fun in moderation (some people get tired from socialization)
kindred mason
yeah, I need to get my team to share more media
(so I can post them on our social media accounts!)
They do pretty well with progress stuff though.
daring parrot
so screenshots of their progress on the game then
bronze dew
one thing that's very useful is a quick ability to create gifs / movies and upload them to slack / discord so you get an actual visual on whats going on. Make sure to make them aware that bugs are useful to know about also... this will let you keep track in a nice way that makes them feel like they are useful no matter what
daring parrot
we're understandably confused because some of the more awful freelancing platforms in the past have required software that periodically screenshots the computer 😬
fickle hatch
We use telegram, it has superb media capabilities (but it's mostly text-only)
bronze dew
ugh.. I would outright refuse to work at any company that monitors my screen like that
kindred mason
@daring parrot I do that also
daring parrot
ugh
bronze dew
your not paying me for x amount of mins.. your paying me for my skillset
kindred mason
Time Tracking/Screenshot Monitors
daring parrot
if I wanted someone watching over my shoulder I'd go back to an office
kindred mason
It works. It's highly effective
bronze dew
and aprox what I can produce in a certain amount of time
kindred mason
You are at the office
daring parrot
what's the morale cost
bronze dew
your entirely wrong
kindred mason
First few days maybe some anxiety trying to remember to turn on the app
daring parrot
you're blind to it
bronze dew
it costs you your workers
kindred mason
(since no one gets paid if they don't log in hours)
Blind to it...rofl
Nah, again. It's been working just fine for 6+ months
You do you. I do me.
@bronze dew What are you even talking about?
bronze dew
it sounds to me.. (I might be wrong) that your not taking into consideration peoples human rights
kindred mason
Again, I honestly don't think some of you have actually worked in such an environment before
bronze dew
I've just spent the past 4 years as a remote worker....
kindred mason
Yeah, nevermind. You just said "sounds to me"
bronze dew
I've been in this industry for 21 years
flat gazelle
My first company didn't allow us internet access below manager/leands.
bronze dew
ok.. patronising much
daring parrot
regular screenshotting software is a remnant of freelancing platforms with no trust
flat gazelle
It didn't do wonders for morale
kindred mason
Hehe, honestly...well, with Facebook. MySpace and all that @flat gazelle
bronze dew
track the results...
kindred mason
It's hard. I understand.
flat gazelle
Facebook was barely a thing then
kindred mason
Yeah, back then though. We didn't have all the wealth of info online
bronze dew
uh....
flat gazelle
Trust isn't as necessary on tiny projects
tidal moth
how old are you Glad
flat gazelle
Ancient
kindred mason
See his beard?
daring parrot
you're ignoring that they've also been in the industry in the intermediate period 😂
not just at one point 21 years ago
bronze dew
I'm seriously hoping this is all a giant misunderstanding.... this conversation needs to reset itself.
flat gazelle
Indeed! I'm not ancient. That's a ludacris statement and I will not stand for it.
kindred mason
Everyone's entitled to their opinions. But I mean...don't knock it until you've tried it.
And if you've tried it, then talk about your own experience.
Don't just shit on an idea/jump on the bandwagon.
flat gazelle
The company that blocked internet also had digital time loggers at all doors of the building
Sucks to be a smoker! 😛
flat gazelle
Luckily I am no such thing and always had the highscore of times
fickle hatch
I've heard that Glad was around when the first videogames were invented back in the Ancient Rome times
daring parrot
that's ok, force them out with extra health insurance costs 🤷
I mean reduced health insurance "rewards"
kindred mason
and 2) if they go on smoke breaks, I feel very obligated to give everyone their own breaks at the same time
But alas, labor laws
flat gazelle
I don't smoke. I take at least as many breaks as them
daring parrot
there is uh regulation about breaks
kindred mason
I couldn't weed people out just because they smoked
tidal moth
what? are you not a perfect work robot?
kindred mason
(I don't think anyway...will have to check up on that)
fickle hatch
Weed can be done without smoking
flat gazelle
Nobody in a trusting company cares about your breaks as long as you produce the results you signed up to do
bronze dew
it is here
daring parrot
eg kentucky allows coffee breaks occurring outside of meal breaks
kindred mason
I just can't even imagine how work places are going to function
bronze dew
not really changed anything
tidal moth
ah yes when weed becomes legal
fickle hatch
You can have weed without smoking it and for most people it's not what they'd wanna do at work
tidal moth
just like when alcohol became legal people immediately began drinking on the job
kindred mason
Well, one again...don't like the smell...and two...well, I want them focused....not lucid!
daring parrot
alcohol is legal and you don't see people smashed at work (as much anymore) 😛
kindred mason
Ah, strange times we live in these days.
Actually, I know a lot of offices (game studios) that drink during the day
or at least towards the end of it
daring parrot
yep, local large tech place does free beer fridays
tidal moth
I've had drinks with colleagues during lunchbreaks
bronze dew
Friday drinks are very common
tidal moth
friday drinks are usually after core work hours though
fickle hatch
I'm the boss so if I want to get high during work hours, I do it (I don't drink alcohol so I can't relate there)
daring parrot
yeah, not as much of a fan of the offices that hit up bars after work on fridays
kindred mason
I mean, I wouldn't want people drinking at their desks...not with the expensive PC rigs
flat gazelle
Hmm... Only two of the studios I've worked at had actual bars
daring parrot
tends to get a bit in-club-y
flat gazelle
And only one of them had full rights
tidal moth
a friend of mine works at a studio with a built in beer tap in the kitchen
he told me that some of the programmers come in and grab a glass in the morning
I suppose it's part of the culture
but I'll be damned if I don't think that is weird
daring parrot
damn I won't even drink a soda in the morning
fickle hatch
I can't imagine how can one be a CEO of anything bigger than a garage band and not be drunk about 50% of the time, exaggerating of course 😄
tidal moth
I guess you can only play so much golf
bronze dew
he used to be in a garage band
fickle hatch
Haha
It doesn't have to be alcohol, but you gotta have some sort of a way to escape reality
tidal moth
I hear games do that
fickle hatch
I like doing architecture, playing management games and getting high for this purpose
Because I'm weird and it works for me
tidal moth
hobbyist architecture? like making your own blueprints then getting some structural engineers out in the back yard to construct a shed?
fickle hatch
I mostly try to build stuff in games like minecraft and such, but I do prepare blueprints for those and I study the real blueprints a lot (as part of my job, I got access to a ton of them)
So hobbyist architecture, but I like big things I can't build in my backyard 😄
kindred mason
@fickle hatch Oh, not sure if it's really for this discussion, but how's progress of the Train Sim? (I always forget the name, sorry)
You've been working on that for what, 4-5 years now?
daring parrot
Train Sim But Legally Distinct Name From Train Simulator 2020
as it is known in my head
fickle hatch
Subtransit. Working hard on a side version of it (a smaller version of this exact train sim with just a few simplifications), doing lots of work right now, got funding for some time
@kindred mason yeah, though that's not 4-5 years of continuous work (sadly, I wish)
tidal moth
I mean it could be a fancy ass shed
or like
three sheds connected with tiny walkways
kindred mason
Ah, okay. That's good. I didn't want to work on my first commercial release for years and years.
fickle hatch
I don't like sheds. I'm currently working on Palace of the Soviets in Minecraft based on the real plans I have and plans I made myself
tidal moth
arranged in a partie
kindred mason
So that's why when NGJ presented an opportunity...I latched on. Something I could crank out in about a year.
fickle hatch
@kindred mason it's kind of an odd case and it's more of an engineering project than a videogame project, there is too much value for society culturally and from engineering POV so we can't just easily drop this project. It probably sounds kind of silly, but when we see the results of our earlier work every day, we just can't stop easily
daring parrot
@kindred mason I think about Kine in that regard, it was maybe 2 years in development?
so it is possible \o/
fickle hatch
There is commercial value in the project and stuff, but really being able to make a little positive change is a huge motivation
tidal moth
you could clean and arrange abandoned trainwagons and containers in a complex fashion then ask some structural engineers to do it for you
daring parrot
fickle hatch
We've been infecting Moscow Metro for years now with the dangerous ideas of proper engineering and responsibility for quality and now people who started off as dweebs are working actual jobs as drivers, dispatchers, station crew
This stuff is great for marketing and it just writes itself 😄
kindred mason
@daring parrot Well.. Kine is a very different story... she had some serious connections before working on her game.
And everything pretty much fell on her lap whenever she needed something.
fickle hatch
We started with zero connections, no sugar daddy, nothing
kindred mason
According to herself.
fickle hatch
Spent a tiny amount over these 5 years, pocket change for many
kindred mason
(I read a few interviews that she did over the past year)
daring parrot
yeah, but it seems like most successful indie games look like that to some degree from the outside 😛
kindred mason
So I mean... she's totally the exception to whatever rule you were trying to bring up 🙂
I hope her sales are doing well.
tidal moth
that's why most indie games out there are made by industry veteran that broke off from the mold of larger companies
kindred mason
I don't think she's released (or can) that info
tidal moth
whereas the ones made by people with less experience or network are more likely to fail
fickle hatch
If you want to do your job well and get some money in return, there's absolutely nothing wrong about trying to do short okay projects and get good money in return
daring parrot
it's interesting that out of the 3 puzzle games recently released on EGS (Kine, Manifold Garden, and Superliminal), hers was made the fastest (2 years vs 5/7) and seems to be the least buggy/most polished
and still has a satisfying set of puzzles
tidal moth
@daring parrot see my previous comment
fickle hatch
I can hardly find any reasons to judge any project based on desired/real development times and the mass or niche appeal of it
kindred mason
@daring parrot Well, the thing is...when you have a simple game (mechanics, art, etc) you can polish the crap outta it much easier. (NGJ is the same way)
fickle hatch
If your goal is to make a specific project (not just any project), there are so many ridiculous factors that can multiply your development time tenfold
kindred mason
True.
fickle hatch
For me, I'd say the toughest stuff was non-technical so far
daring parrot
lots of variables I agree, I don't know how much time MG/Superliminal teams were spending early on, so it could have been mostly part time until it showed a lot of promise, just thought it was interesting 🙂
tidal moth
hence why you want an experienced core team to mitigate those factors
fickle hatch
The technical aspects of our game lay out perfect, it's so great to work on something where every piece fits together basically perfectly, things just shape up without too much conscious effort etc (it's only because of the nature of the project and the engineering basis for it, not because we're good at it or something)
daring parrot
valve heavily suggested she put the page back up so people could at least wishlist
kindred mason
I feel like Valve is going to do something in the future.
fickle hatch
Buuuut you also gotta feed several mouths even if they work for you out of ideological reasons
kindred mason
Kick all exclusives out until time's up
daring parrot
valve has the SEO right now 😛 might as well get the consumers eyes on their site if you have a store page for an EGS exclusive
bronze dew
if you ever have more C lvl people then workers.. you might wanna rethink 😛
tidal moth
I think that's a given
bronze dew
you'd think so right 😉
tidal moth
well for any serious effort
daring parrot
unless people leave until only execs are left 😬
fickle hatch
The good management to worker ratio is something like 1:7 - 1:10
Though it's kinda hard to estimate because some things might create overheads that draw in more managers than workers for stupid reasons
I'd say THAT is what you wanna avoid
daring parrot
is that counting team leads as management?
tidal moth
I don't think it's really worth to talk about a separate management role until you figure out how your core team looks
fickle hatch
@daring parrot yes
daring parrot
personally I like teams ~5 including lead
bronze dew
I think a place I was at in the end had... 3 C level people per worker... (this is one of the big reasons I left)
fickle hatch
Treat the cause (management bottlenecks), not the symptom (too many managers), but that's like, superficial and doesn't actually tell you how to do anything in practice 😄
@daring parrot yeah, the sweet spot is variable, but it seems like a single person can manage about 3 to 7 people before they need to delegate their responsibilities