#career-chat | Unreal Source | Page 66

plucky hatch Jul 15, 2019, 10:03 PM

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But if you can find people willing to work for free, that's great deal for you.

patent mountain Jul 15, 2019, 10:17 PM

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game jams

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make friends

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conquer the ~~world~~ next paycheck

plucky hatch Jul 15, 2019, 10:25 PM

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so yeah, if you feel the art is worth say 10k, you would guarantee to pay him 2k up front and the remaining 8k as the game makes it, say 1k for every 2k you make until you are square, with the understanding that if the game does not make enough to square then you are not obligated to finish paying. then you haggle until the agreement is equally unappealing for both of you.

fickle hatch Jul 15, 2019, 10:27 PM

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Just make sure you write things down on paper

plucky hatch Jul 15, 2019, 10:39 PM

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or your face

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@plucky hatch totally agree, if they are a close friend maybe it's different, but this culture of unpaid work is terrible. If it's a struggling indie it's bad business but if it's a big company that's terrible.

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sure but he is not talking about a company, i think he is solo and talking about how to compensate a friend when his project is unfunded. a simpler answer would be to form a company, secure funding, pay the freelancer, and drink plenty of water.

plain umbra Jul 16, 2019, 12:47 AM

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I'm moving from being a server dev to an Unreal game dev tomorrow. I have some UE4 experience from the server dev side but this is my first game dev job ever. Any advice for a completely green game developer?

fickle hatch Jul 16, 2019, 12:50 AM

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My advice is, don't fuck up

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😄

plain umbra Jul 16, 2019, 12:51 AM

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That's good advice for any situation 😃

fickle hatch Jul 16, 2019, 12:51 AM

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Use a source build of UE4 if that's an option at your workplace, don't hesitate to step into its internals, especially if you feel like UE4 is doing something it shouldn't be doing

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As a server dev, UE4 has a lot of fucky surprises for you

plain umbra Jul 16, 2019, 12:52 AM

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What's the benefits of a source build?

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I've used it before to compile linux servers but I've not used it in game dev.

fickle hatch Jul 16, 2019, 12:54 AM

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Just that you can step into the code, preferrably having built your local engine in Debug mode

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You're asking for advice in a very very generic way, this is just something that comes to my mind 😄

plain umbra Jul 16, 2019, 12:55 AM

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Well I definitely appreciate the advice.

patent mountain Jul 16, 2019, 2:45 AM

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@plucky hatch how can i secure this water you speak of

patent mountain Jul 16, 2019, 3:31 AM

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yup solo, good guess

umbral torrent Jul 17, 2019, 3:51 PM

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Anyone know if there’s a Programmers’ Union?

plucky hatch Jul 17, 2019, 4:05 PM

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😶

west sonnet Jul 17, 2019, 4:44 PM

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There’s IGDA

flat gazelle Jul 17, 2019, 4:50 PM

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Are they still around?!

west sonnet Jul 17, 2019, 5:00 PM

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“Yes”

flat gazelle Jul 17, 2019, 5:04 PM

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Best answer

tidal moth Jul 18, 2019, 11:28 AM

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wouldn't trust IGDA to actually solve any issues for you

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local/national unions in your country of residence might be a better choice

lilac walrus Jul 18, 2019, 11:34 AM

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I wouldn't trust IGDA with a tin of beans

flat gazelle Jul 18, 2019, 12:31 PM

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They will use those beans against you

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 12:52 PM

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General question. I have started to develop Unreal based apps/projects for the arch vis company I work for, if this becomes a viable thing for the company what should I ask for as payment rise? I know it's super subjective but put it this way. I'm the lead 3D Artist Modeller, I'm on £25k, a Visualiser earns around £28-30K but what ball park should I look at? I can't call myself an Unreal Developer right? I have been told I fit all the qualifications for a technical artist (Realtime in Manchester called me about it)

elder halo Jul 18, 2019, 2:14 PM

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@west surge Be really good at something instead of average at everything. If your thing is the artist side, go for it all the way, but juggling between multiple areas will suck time that you could allocate into your true mastery

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:15 PM

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but what if I'm shit at everything evenly? haha

elder halo Jul 18, 2019, 2:15 PM

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I am a developer and I tried to learn Blender because I needed a low poly artist for my game and I ended up realizing that I am a developer who cannot draw a stick

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@west surge Our only limits are the ones set by our own minds.

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Something that you may call "shit" may be amazing for someone else. It's all about perspective.

west sonnet Jul 18, 2019, 2:16 PM

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Skill is learned, not inherited 😉

elder halo Jul 18, 2019, 2:17 PM

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How much time do you dedicate a day to get better at your game?

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If you put 2 hours a day towards getting better, at the end of the year you will have over 730 hours of training in that skill.

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And that's just 2 hours.

tidal moth Jul 18, 2019, 2:20 PM

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nobody has time to put in 2 hours every day consistently

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:20 PM

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yeah I get it all. I go home willingly and do this stuff for fun, but it's the whole "could get paid better as a plumber" and not have to keep fighting to be good 😛

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but you do what the heart wants right

tidal moth Jul 18, 2019, 2:21 PM

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if you're paid you do what the job requires

inner anchor Jul 18, 2019, 2:21 PM

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jack-of-all-trades stuff aside, when you're trying to shift your career path and it's not one that's "official" (acknowledged and supported by your employer), it's often easier to leverage experience in your current role to get a new role than to twist your current role into a new one at the same company. It's not impossible, but they have an incentive to keep you in your current role / pay to avoid a backfill

tidal moth Jul 18, 2019, 2:21 PM

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and then hope you're right for the job and not in a peter principle situation

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:22 PM

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oh I love this Peter Principle idea lol

ashen lynx Jul 18, 2019, 2:23 PM

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Chris, just dropping to say that visualizer is hell of a boring job and no amount of finances would help to alleviate that(subjective, personal opinion).

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:24 PM

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yeah it can be shite and I've never known the subjective joys of more creative based jobs but also 31 and worried about stability, but then you don't get anywhere without risk.

west sonnet Jul 18, 2019, 2:26 PM

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Isn’t arch visualization extremely over saturated and often underpaid?

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:29 PM

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it fuckin' is

ashen lynx Jul 18, 2019, 2:29 PM

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Depends. In some places these jobs can be the only ones in relevant field. As for underpaid, I don't think so, for the job requires quite limited skill set.

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:30 PM

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that's the thing. As a Modeller I can do great assets, often in arch vis they need little more than a box map and crap materials but I try to unwrap and prepare things correctly with materials and the sort (I do assets for Adobe Dimension that need to be PBR and Unwrapped)

tidal moth Jul 18, 2019, 2:31 PM

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do you have a portfolio

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:31 PM

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so my modelling skill set is far above the normal for arch vis, and the visualisers often "just" pick and place assets, do a nice job of lighting and rendering

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got an artstation, it's a bit limited though by my work.

tidal moth Jul 18, 2019, 2:31 PM

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I mean even if it's personal

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I don't know which direction you're aiming for

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:32 PM

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https://www.artstation.com/cgough

ArtStation

Christopher Gough

Lead 3D Artist

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TBH there's animation, rigging and all sorts I've wanted to do outside of work but I always fall back to modelling so that seems to be me, that and Unreal blueprints.

tidal moth Jul 18, 2019, 2:33 PM

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why don't you spend some time creating a scene in unreal then

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like an art scene

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:33 PM

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at work I always prepare buildings for interactive things, scenes for realtime and all that.

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I do actually have a few but thay're from work and I think I'd be fired for making them public

tidal moth Jul 18, 2019, 2:33 PM

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I mean as a personal project

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:34 PM

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yeah again I need to sit down and see them through to the end, I have a few that really want working on.

ashen lynx Jul 18, 2019, 2:34 PM

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And yeah, I am not keen on UK wages, but 25k seems too low for even a junior artist.

tidal moth Jul 18, 2019, 2:34 PM

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given your skill level it shouldn't be more than a challenge to create something like that

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:34 PM

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yeah UK wages are shite. I have a competent Modeller who's new sat with me and he's on 18K

flat gazelle Jul 18, 2019, 2:35 PM

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My memory is fuzzy but I think I started on 26k as a junior in the uk, ten years ago.

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:35 PM

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two lads who have stepped to be visualisers because they were not paid more are on 20/22

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we're in the north west though, outside manchester

flat gazelle Jul 18, 2019, 2:35 PM

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I was in midlands

tidal moth Jul 18, 2019, 2:35 PM

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we have juniors with 23k sadly, but mid levels get upwards of 30k

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:35 PM

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not London prices

flat gazelle Jul 18, 2019, 2:35 PM

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VFX though, not generalist

tidal moth Jul 18, 2019, 2:36 PM

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I'm talking env art here

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:36 PM

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I mean 23k isn't that bad in the UK, it's below the average but there's massive income inequality here

tidal moth Jul 18, 2019, 2:36 PM

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vfx is probably more sought after

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:37 PM

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I fear this is the end result of taking the stable job out of Uni 10 years ago. Some of my friends are high up in Weta and DNeg now. though they were compositors, the Modeller is still in London.

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I am working on something now though that can cover asset creation and unreal so I'll have to post that, and then I made a Piano you can play in Unreal with a MIDI Piano 😛

ashen lynx Jul 18, 2019, 2:41 PM

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Well, one way or another, if you have a feeling that you are underpaid, it is about time to ask for a raise or start a job hunt. That feeling tends to grow and eat you from inside with time.

west surge Jul 18, 2019, 2:48 PM

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yeah been doing that 😛 I got offered a senior job at a Manchester arch vis kind of place but for 30K but the work wasn't what I'd love to bits.

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you guys most likely see a fair bit of this, I'm just spinning around but thanks for talking.

umbral torrent Jul 18, 2019, 5:06 PM

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This is why we need a union that will force these billionaire conglomerate tech companies into paying skilled masters of the digital arts 100k+ salaries.

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We need a “DigitalArts” Union.

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Anyone who’s required to utilize some sort of software to achieve Frontend, Backend, (Etc.) production for a company, within our appropriate line of work, should be a member.

lilac walrus Jul 18, 2019, 6:11 PM

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if you want salaries to go up, demand for those roles needs to increase and / or competition for those roles needs to decrease

patent mountain Jul 18, 2019, 6:58 PM

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http://app.reg.techweb.com/e/er?elq_mid=92019&elq_cid=19675648&s=2150&lid=149589&elqTrackId=2805abb0e2284a8c8c126b7373044925&elq=b9e04204ce2b44019fc63856eb65bfb0&elqaid=92019&elqat=1

Video: Living the freelancing dream while avoiding the nightmare

In this 2019 GDC talk, game writer Greg Buchanan discuses strategies to cope with the positive and negative aspects of freelance work, and ultimately build your career and reputation!

plucky hatch Jul 18, 2019, 8:53 PM

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"Something that you may call "shit" may be amazing for someone else. It's all about perspective."
That or experience. We always crave for more.

fickle hatch Jul 18, 2019, 9:26 PM

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Heh. Simply having a union won't be enough

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I think there are some politics to be done regarding regulations and such for the tech companies, time for the industry to get even more mundane and less wild west

flat gazelle Jul 18, 2019, 9:44 PM

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I'm in a union. Where do I go to collect my megabucks?

plucky hatch Jul 18, 2019, 10:05 PM

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"if you want salaries to go up, demand for those roles needs to increase and / or competition for those roles needs to decrease"
I'm sorry, but I don't think the video games industry plays by any of those rules.

echo fossil Jul 18, 2019, 10:06 PM

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Game Industry died in the middle of the PS3/360 era

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wild west of creative games ended

plucky hatch Jul 18, 2019, 10:06 PM

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Pretty much

echo fossil Jul 18, 2019, 10:06 PM

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its all about indies now (for me anyways)

plucky hatch Jul 18, 2019, 10:07 PM

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Now, a game company is making a competitive multiplayer games, a mobile guy with no background whatsoever gets the job because....
hell, who the F knows.

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The video games industry has been alive for a long time now and it is still very random who gets hired, where and why.

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Or for what salary

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Skills and experience have little to no value.

echo fossil Jul 18, 2019, 10:09 PM

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i dont have a good opinion on it, because ive never worked AAA

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but its a lot of politics i hear!

plucky hatch Jul 18, 2019, 10:09 PM

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And production guys get layed off while the business crew stays there.

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I don't think this industry needs an union. Just to grow up a bit.

fickle hatch Jul 18, 2019, 10:24 PM

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Growing up is definitely the thing it needs

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100%

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The IT wild west is actively hurting people and businesses

plucky hatch Jul 18, 2019, 10:25 PM

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And don't take my comments ''too literally''. There are some specific roles where skills have value. Ex: character artists, music, VFX, etc.

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Concept arts...

fickle hatch Jul 18, 2019, 10:25 PM

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To me, it's people who are valuable, not skills/experience in an abstract way

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I can't wait for a perfect prince to show up who has all the skills

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But I will take a person who learns fast over the one who doesn't any day

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For more mundane parts of the projects I mean 😄

plucky hatch Jul 18, 2019, 10:26 PM

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Some studios highly value people who can produce really fast, but often that ''fast work'' is garbage and they promote those guys.
But they don't have the qualities to lead or direct.

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They don't embody the ''high quality''.

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It's like comparing a concept artist who is great and make 10 concepts a day VS the guy who makes 30 but they are all crap.

umbral torrent Jul 19, 2019, 12:06 AM

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📎 image0.png

pale yacht Jul 19, 2019, 12:57 AM

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📎 good-fast-cheap.png

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 7:48 AM

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Guys what job can I get given that I have 1) Good academics 2) No professional experience outside awful minimum wage jobs 3) Moderate experience with game engines

lilac walrus Jul 19, 2019, 7:57 AM

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probably nothing

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your problem here is that you've listed your skills as "moderate experience with game engines", which in itself is not really a skill

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if you have a particular discipline you're inclined towards, focus on that

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 7:58 AM

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well the thing is I could start applying for games jobs, but I actually want a break, I want to be an admin or something for a few months

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in admin*

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or just a job that is fairly chill, without being soul crushing like my current, which hurts my back

lilac walrus Jul 19, 2019, 8:02 AM

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admin is tricky to get into since it tends to be people who do admin type work who get those roles, rather than games orientated people

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you can always try though

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 8:14 AM

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yes and retail

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I'm not 'oriented' any way I just learn as I go

lilac walrus Jul 19, 2019, 8:34 AM

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everyone is orientated in one way or another

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I don't think there's anyone out there with perfectly equal skills across every spectrum

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 8:44 AM

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nah im not talking skill wise there is tons that goes over my head

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but in terms of easy jobs I can probably pick most up with just some practice

lilac walrus Jul 19, 2019, 8:55 AM

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games QA would probably be the easiest path in, but it may or may not be soul crushing depending on your take on that kind of work

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 8:59 AM

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can't be worse than working in a dusty warehouse mate

lilac walrus Jul 19, 2019, 9:00 AM

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probably not

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night shifts are a thing though

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when they really shouldn't be

tidal moth Jul 19, 2019, 9:48 AM

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I mean it depends on the company

broken hollow Jul 19, 2019, 10:48 AM

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So I had an interview with naughty dog a few days ago for the QA tester position

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so i hope that works out

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 10:52 AM

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good luck ^^

broken hollow Jul 19, 2019, 10:54 AM

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thanks man

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 9:37 PM

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@broken hollow
Naughty Dog is cool, but why getting into QA?
It's rarely a career. More like a summer job, student job.

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Unless you get into Software QA Testing, like testing Pornhub.com, then you can make 40-50k...

broken hollow Jul 19, 2019, 9:42 PM

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I know im graduating in less than a month so im taking anything as experience

sudden island Jul 19, 2019, 9:43 PM

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also super depends on the studio/the role

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if it's a contract role for the publisher, yeah you're just another body they need

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if it's internal QA then that can vary

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also @broken hollow what discipline are you focusing on

broken hollow Jul 19, 2019, 9:46 PM

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im studying game design and production

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and yeah its a temp position so im pretty much an expendable

sudden island Jul 19, 2019, 9:52 PM

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here is the naughty dog design test from a few years back

📎 Naughty_Dog_Offsite_Design_Test_v_5.docx

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 10:09 PM

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@broken hollow
It's cool. If you can get a foot in the door at ND, that's great for you.

broken hollow Jul 19, 2019, 10:10 PM

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yeah

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@sudden island thats great, thanks for this

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 10:13 PM

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The thing with QA testing is it's like rolling a dice.
Sometimes it is an excellent opportunity to make friends and move up.
And other times you'll just get stuck there for years and it would have been better to find a job that brings higher income and give you more time to work on your stuff to get into proper careers (level designer, game designer, 3d artist, VFX, programmer, etc.)

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There are few employees that I know that moved up from QA.

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And of course they had a degree in something similar before too.

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Multimedia or something like that

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Game dev schools didnt exist yet.

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And you'll always have those very few people who work in the industry and come from QA, but they are like... the exceptions.

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Most of the guys I worked with in QA are still doing QA

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Those who made it a career moved to Software QA Testing. Where they actually pay you as a real job

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40k+

flat gazelle Jul 19, 2019, 10:40 PM

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Or! We could congratulate him, hope he gets the job and learn as much as he can and figure out how to approach the career from there.

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Instead of scaring him off with outdated advice based on semirelevant experiences.

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:04 PM

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Why don't you do a few years in QA at minimum salary just for fun, stuck doing overtime to pay the bills and feed a family, no time to work on a portfolio to find other jobs?
Must be nice to have 10 years in VFX.

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How about you try to the other jobs for a few years like some of us actually did?

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Calling it semi-relevant. Get off your horse. You'll hit a tree...

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I would congratulate him if it was proper career job.
QA isn't that.

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It's a downward spiral.

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That's what it is.

flat gazelle Jul 19, 2019, 11:07 PM

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Semi relevant: You haven't worked at ND, you are describing how it used to be, you aren't actively working in/with AAA QA right now right?

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:08 PM

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How about, let him get the job and tell us about it.

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😉

flat gazelle Jul 19, 2019, 11:09 PM

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QA isn't a career for most, but it is a way to see a project cycle or two while figuring out how to approach an actual career. Rather than advising him to pass up on a role and sit on the sidelines because from what you've told before, that's not great either.

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:12 PM

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Actually, I'd recommend to any dev to do 1-1.5 years in QA testing for the experience of it and get a better understanding of where games fail on a technical level.

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The problem is, I don't know many people who have the experience, will power or maturity to turn their life around and get out of it.

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And that's what Im stressing out the most.

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The guys I worked with 4 years ago.... are still there.

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Or they are doing QA elsewhere.

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They were supposed to become designers, artists, programmers, etc

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@broken hollow
I believe in you. Keep hammering those design skills. Get into UE4 and start bringing your concepts to life.

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Build a portfolio.

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Make friends at ND

fickle hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:19 PM

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QA is a lovely job

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Sometimes I wish I was fit for QA :>

flat gazelle Jul 19, 2019, 11:19 PM

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Oh! You've changed names! Now I get it xD I didn't recognize you. Your arguments did sound familiar though

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:21 PM

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💗

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Personally, what QA was in 2008was the same it was in 2015.

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I dont think it changed all ofa sudden in 2019. Even if it is a nice thought.

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@flat gazelle
Did you know that Quake Champions has been in development since 2013? Still early access today. And that in less than 5 years Id Software had time to release Quake 1, 2 and 3?

flat gazelle Jul 19, 2019, 11:31 PM

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Que?

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Unsubscribe me from random quake fact of the day please.

fickle hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:33 PM

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@flat gazelle did you know that all weapons in quake2 contain 173 animation frames

flat gazelle Jul 19, 2019, 11:34 PM

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Unsubscribe!

fickle hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:35 PM

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Haha

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:39 PM

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If you ask around, many vets are convinced that studios have started to lose sight of how to make great games in a reasonable amount of time.

flat gazelle Jul 19, 2019, 11:41 PM

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Alright

fickle hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:42 PM

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That's a common human misconception, it's not entirely untrue though

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"Things were better in the old days" has some basis behind it, but it's not literally true

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Companies start off in some tightly knit seed where people work together and create projects with a very solid view on its design and all of its aspects blah blah first project sorta thing

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After the first project, the company has to mature and develop working processes for sustaining its operations

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:43 PM

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the old days being better wasnt my argument

fickle hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:44 PM

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What was the first exciting project becomes mundane everyday work

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:44 PM

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but there is a middle ground...

fickle hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:45 PM

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Companies that did great and innovative before don't innovate in same ways as their processes have changed, maybe they didn't mature quite right, or maybe that's how most companies have to mature to stay around... But sure, I think many studios haven't matured well and moved into conveyor belt approach to making games

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:48 PM

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League of Legends, Team Fortress 2 and Overwatch are pretty examples of a middle ground

flat gazelle Jul 19, 2019, 11:54 PM

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Titan...

plucky hatch Jul 19, 2019, 11:54 PM

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You can even get action figures of Overwatch and Comic Books.
Finally business well done.

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We don't see enough of this.

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I remember purchasing Duke Nukem and Street Fighter figures like 15-20 years ago.
Those guys were smart.

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It is still a thing... game studios still try to make ''games'', but they forget the whole business side of being in this business

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I expect that more and more game companies will realize that they need to create their own market.
And they'll come up with their own Game Publishing Platform.

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And beyond... 🕵

fickle hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:06 AM

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Uhh

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Do you know the setup costs of making a toy

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Before you start making super cheap toys, the molds and such have to be designed and the entire manufacturing process set up, it's not a little extra side thing you just throw on top when you remember about it

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It's a big business move you have to evaluate really thoroughly

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Otherwise you might have just wasted a couple hundred thousand and were left with a stock of toys you can't sell

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I'd say that's the primary reason why merchandising for videogames is generally limited

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It's clear how toys will sell for something as popular as overwatch or pokemon or fortnite, but is it so clear in the general case

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:32 AM

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I'm familiar with the toys business and selling. I get mine from a specialized toys and the employee there is a former store owner specialized in action figures. I had a few business talks with him, since I was interested into starting my own thing as well. In terms of making toys, that would be new. I've seen how McFarlane makes his with 3D apps and 3d printers.
But that's about it.

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:34 AM

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in those instances the developers arent making the toys

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a toy company will reach out to the ip owner

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@plucky hatch can you link where it was said that quake champions has been in dev since 2013

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:36 AM

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@sudden island you could join the Quake Champ discord and use the search, type "2013".

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:37 AM

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what is that going to tell me

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:37 AM

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📎 unknown.png

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They started to prototype Quake Champs with the Quake Live engine in 2013.

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:40 AM

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makes sense

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:40 AM

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📎 unknown.png

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You'll find a lot of interesting info by typing keywords such as:

Quake Live Engine
Saber
2013

👍

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or search history of the users with Red Tags that are Id Devs.

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:46 AM

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im not very interested in quake tbh, but to your point that vets are saying that games take too long, i mean i think that we see games having a longer pre-production and ideation period

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watch dogs started in 2009

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entered production in 2012 i think? (ill have to double check that)

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:47 AM

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When I have joined the production of a AAA game that I won't name.
We were 4 years in and the prod really was just beginning.

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And the 4 years before that I have heard of was really ''we were trying to figure it out''.

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:48 AM

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yeah that makes sense, was it a new ip

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:48 AM

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No. But it was a complicated one.

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It was a reboot.

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🌛 🏹 🕵 💰

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:50 AM

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ah

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was it from the place with poutine

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:50 AM

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Subtle

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Hell yeah.

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:50 AM

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yeah i know the game

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i mean it could have been production issues

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:51 AM

#

They didn't have the right designers/lead in place

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:51 AM

#

i do remember hearing that game in particular, had issues

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:51 AM

#

But it's also to highlight the facts that ''good designers'' are hard to find in the business.

#

It's a difficult skill to identify.

#

And multiple sub-areas.

#

The one we had when I joined, he was really good. The lead LD

#

He had worked on Freedom fighters before.

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:53 AM

#

yeah in terms of design roles honestly while the job title is an indicator the roles and responsibilities are what i really pay attention to now

#

because at least in my area

#

companies tend to have different needs of 'design'

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:53 AM

#

What do you mean by that?

#

managing projects?

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:54 AM

#

so it may be my context, but in australia, it's very indie mainly

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:54 AM

#

Ha!

#

That's nice.

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:55 AM

#

we have big studios

#

wargaming ea firemonkeys

#

also SIE just opened up shop

#

but where internationally, you would tech design, level design, ux design, combat design etc. most places here are just "Design"

#

sometimes it's just "unity developer" where you're expected to just be able to kinda design and code

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:57 AM

#

Different schools of thoughts
Some people praise the uber specialization while others might praise the more holistic understanding of things.

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:57 AM

#

uber specialization makes sense in large companies

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:57 AM

#

Depends

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:57 AM

#

where you're making huge games that are incredibly complex

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:57 AM

#

I don't believe you can have a good UX designer who isn't a good Game Designer, as a whole.

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 12:58 AM

#

because that's what it really is, why games are taking longer to make, consumer demands get higher and higher

#

well yeah, but in those cases, you'd want a Great UX designer who is also a good game designer

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 12:58 AM

#

yes

#

Basically, you want a game designer ''specialized'' in combat or UX or systems or else

#

Not just a ''specialist'' in combat or UX or systems who isn't well rounded in game design

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 1:00 AM

#

also UX itself is a huge amalgamation of different things

#

people tend to think it's just ui

#

but UX starts from t he moment you hear about the product

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 1:00 AM

#

UX is currently being invaded by neuroscience that keeps trying to enforce the belief that the brains create the experience, the brain learns ,the brain thinks, the brain does X, etc.

#

You'll read an article with 50+ times the word brain in there rather than the player's mind.

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 1:01 AM

#

yes because user experience at its core is about emotions and attitudes

#

also the term was coined by a cognitive scientist

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 1:02 AM

#

I mean, there is a big dilemma at the moment in neuroscience about the Brain/Mind problem.
No one has ever been able to prove that the brain produces the mind. But neuroscience tries to prove that the brain does. But that's what they teach us.

#

Which is wrong.

#

Basically they are alienating game designers

#

Trying to enforce the belief the they can manipulate the brain

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 1:04 AM

#

i mean you totally can, in fact that's kinda why the industry is in a bit of trouble right now

#

because we're adopting the exploitation techniques that are common in gambling, but thats a whole other debate

#

granted of course, sometimes with the psychology, maybe it can go too far

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 1:05 AM

#

What I'm saying is that UX design, explained from a Neuroscientist, isn't neutral in its teaching.

#

They should stick with talking about how to manipulate the mind.
That's fine.

But not to teach us that it's the brain that does things

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 1:06 AM

#

also sometimes ux can come up with false leads, like in halo 2, they presented the idea of matchmaking to people just as an idea on paper, they all responded negatively

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 1:07 AM

#

Halo 2 and how it broke Xbox live community apart is why I got into this industry

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 1:07 AM

#

but it's because of our lack of ability in affective forecasting

#

https://www.polygon.com/features/2019/7/2/18651880/the-time-i-tried-to-ruin-halo-2-user-research

Polygon

The time I tried to ruin Halo 2

A former Microsoft user researcher writes about how you can’t always trust the data in front of you

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 1:07 AM

#

The design of Halo 2 negatively influenced players and encouraged some really nasty behaviors.

#

Because of how the gameplay was designed and how it had a psychological impact on online players and online clans.

#

Thx I'll read that.

sudden island Jul 20, 2019, 1:08 AM

#

do you have a background in psychology or cognitive science?

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 1:10 AM

#

I have a background as a competitive FPS player. Essentially applied player psychology to the point where I can manipulate in real-time multiple opponents.
Most UX designer have no understanding of this and have no real understanding of player psychology. Which is why earlier I said... there are different schools of thoughts.
I believe in the holistic approach. I understand psychology because I've used it at the highest levels in a real-life scenario.

#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-931jEtvWNs

#

Lot of people don't understand that pro gaming, at the highest levels is mental. Really... mental.

#

Psychology

#

Applied psychology, as advanced as it gets.

fickle hatch Jul 20, 2019, 1:13 AM

#

Not to be rude or anything, but this sounds more like #industry-chat

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 1:13 AM

#

you are right

fickle hatch Jul 20, 2019, 1:13 AM

#

It's interesting but not for this channel

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:22 PM

#

How do you achieve work/life balance as a game dev

#

Everyone is in a different stituation, so what do you need?

#

Are you single? How many people do you need to feed?
How much money do you make monthly VS expenses?
Do you make passive income on the side?
Etc.

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:30 PM

#

sacrifice life

#

only work

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:30 PM

#

Are you a work day, work night guy?

#

Yes single don't need much money

#

Some people just work in the industry and don't do anything game dev related at home.

#

others do it 24/7

#

Don't mind a little crunch but overall I would like a social life very important to me

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:31 PM

#

You could set limits

#

like after 5pm no work related stuff

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:32 PM

#

I think you need to relocate close to your job and save a lot of time.
And then there is why do you work in the industry? Is your day job fulfilling your needs?

#

Well both

#

Or is it beneficial to what you do after work?

#

I have a day job very boring ATM, I do game Dev in spare time so have 0 time for social things

#

I do enjoy game Dev on an intellectual level

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:33 PM

#

Me too man

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:33 PM

#

I don't work in the industry anymore. I'm a debt collector during the day.
I come back home earlier. I live closer to my home.
And can work on the stuff I want. But have a family to take care of which ultimately leaves me 2 hours off per day to work on my stuff.

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:34 PM

#

Being single saves you a lot of time

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:34 PM

#

yes

#

a hell lot

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:34 PM

#

I try to make an hour or so a day at least for the gf

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:34 PM

#

If I was single, no kids. I'd have 6+ hours to work after work

#

plus time to rest

#

I dont rest...

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:34 PM

#

there's always 1 or 2 days that social gatherings happen or her mom comes over or family events etc

#

You always gotta sacrifice something

#

I sacrifice sleep and social life

#

Trying to grind until I finish my game lol

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:36 PM

#

I think if someone wants to work in the industry, it would be important to spend a few years working super hard to step up your skills, get a job and secure that. And once that's done, you are kind of settled. And you can afford to have a family life.

#

I mean screaming rave kind of social XD haha

#

lol

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:36 PM

#

lol

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:37 PM

#

Don't want family but respect to those with one (I mean extra family wife etc)

#

If your kids are 1-5 years old. They won't give you much rest.

#

If your wife/husband is sick, got injured, has special needs ,etc.
It's hard

#

game Dev makes me cringey except when I talk to other game devs

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:38 PM

#

lmao

#

same tho, whenever i mention it at work i get weird looks

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:38 PM

#

XD

#

Would be nice to be able to work a 30 hour week

#

yeah

#

That would be ideal

#

for me

#

at least

#

2 days to rest isnt enough

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:40 PM

#

Would be nice to work a 1 hour week

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:40 PM

#

Nah you would get restless

#

you might have a family reunion or birthdays on 1 day during the weekend. only leaving you 1 day to rest

#

it sucks

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:40 PM

#

yup then 5 more days of day job

#

then parents need some help next weekend

#

or errands start piling up

#

i swear i havent gotten 8 hours sleep in a year

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:41 PM

#

I think we all have periods in our lives where money is more the priority and once you are settled for X time period. Then it's more important to have more time to do what you need to do.

#

Like oh I need a guitar, a keyboard, a mic to make youtube vids, I need a house or whatever it is you need to do what you want

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:42 PM

#

Grind now so you can have time later

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:43 PM

#

exactly

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:43 PM

#

hopefully retire before you need a cane

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:44 PM

#

It's a good opportunity now for everyone to become a bit more entrepreneurs

#

Learning how to make youtube vids, build an channel, an audience, make a bit of money on the side. etc

#

while giving bac kto the community

#

win-win

#

for everyone

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:45 PM

#

solo game dev is basically entrepreneurship

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:45 PM

#

Some people would probably argue that it's suicidal too

#

😛

#

Game dev solo is hard

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:45 PM

#

lol no argueing needed

#

yeah im scared to start getting into the audience building part

#

like already so much time is spent on design and dev, how to possibly fit in making community content

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:46 PM

#

In my experience, it's best to just focus on producing content

#

and not interacting too much directly with the community

#

The more you talk, the more people find reasons to hate someone

#

But when you just produce content, it's just giving value to people

#

You don't give them opportunities to dislike you

#

And that's great.

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:47 PM

#

ooh thats smart

#

everything is offensive to someone lol

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:48 PM

#

Yes.

#

Been interacting online for 20 years.
People love that guy who never talks and produce 10 concept arts daily and never says a word
And they had the guy who produces 10 and has a mind of his own

#

It's just... sadly how people are.

#

And there are rare cases where the person is both productive and has the charisma to appeal to a large audience

#

But that's rare.

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:49 PM

#

Must be nice lol

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:50 PM

#

Cliffy B used to be loved
LawBreakers failed and all of a sudden everyone hates the guy
People are hypocrites.

#

It's the internet

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:50 PM

#

Yup. everyones a hypocrite

#

me included

#

but i try to squash that shit when i realize it

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:52 PM

#

Real story, when Epic was working on UT Pre-Alpha, many of us did our best to help and contribute.
The number 1 favorite contributor was Gooba.
A talented concept arttist who was producing crazy amount of concept arts all the time

#

for months. even years

#

But he posted 1 comment once...

#

And everyone was like... this guy is a fucking elitist douchebag

#

And everyone forgot about that comment

#

XD

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:54 PM

#

Damn 1 comment

#

Ruin his image instantly

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:54 PM

#

But how important is that image in a career?

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:54 PM

#

wonder what he posted

#

guess it just depends on what youre doing

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:55 PM

#

Have you ever seen videos from Grant Cardone? A salesman.
He realized that it was important ot have haters.

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:55 PM

#

Yeah used to watch his stuff a lot

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:55 PM

#

if you have haters, you are doing something right

#

And haters talk about you

#

It's free publicity

#

The most important thing in the world in business is that people know about you

#

People hate Trump. And it's freaking good for him

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:56 PM

#

Yea thats true

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:56 PM

#

The hardest thing in the world is increasing visibility.

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 4:56 PM

#

Wonder how well haters translate to marketing games tho

#

You dont want everyone saying "Skilljutsu's an asshole dont buy his game" lol

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 4:58 PM

#

Trust me. I don't mind.

#

I got sooo much stuff to do. I cannot afford to care.

#

lol

#

people will buy the game anyway

#

Do you guys remember when Quake Champions was announced? It was going to feature champs, abilities and stuff. And Quakers went mad! it's unnacceptable! it's not quake
And they are all playing QC now

#

Someone could argue that hate for Cliffy B killed LawBreakers.

#

Which you know is a reasonable argument

#

But it's really not what killed the game if you investigate the reasons why it failed

#

It wasnt cutee enough, the player progression wasnt good enough, etc

#

It could sell copies, but not retain players

#

@rotund totem
In the video games industry, there are several individuals that are doing quite well by branching a bit out of just making games

#

Marc Brunet (Cubebrush), Warrern Marshall, William Vaughan (more film industry), Jonas Ronnegard

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 5:03 PM

#

As long as the game sells copies

#

Thats the end goal unless you rely on repeat transactions

#

Man ive never heard of Cliffy B

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 5:04 PM

#

or look at BlenderGuru

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 5:05 PM

#

Did he start in games?

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 5:05 PM

#

Who?

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 5:05 PM

#

BlenderGuru

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 5:05 PM

#

i have no idea

rotund totem Jul 20, 2019, 5:05 PM

#

I know he's probably doing so well for himself now

#

So many ways to make money on the internet tho

echo fox Jul 20, 2019, 5:06 PM

#

"Quakers went mad! it's unnacceptable! it's not quake
And they are all playing QC now"

#

hang on

#

QC has players now?

#

seemed to be quite the opposite :/

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 5:07 PM

#

That's what some people didn't really understand yesterday during our discussions.
https://www.blenderguru.com/about

Blender Guru is the perfect example of someone who built something great for everyone interested in the subject and make it a profitable business.

Blender Guru

About — Blender Guru

#

But how many times did I hear that his skills were questionable, his videos werent so great, etc

#

He is a fraud, etc

#

bla bla bla

#

He has 700k+ subscribers on youtube.

echo fox Jul 20, 2019, 5:09 PM

#

did you just ignore me? 😦

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 5:09 PM

#

lol, you are next

#

QC is still alive if that's what you ask

#

Is it dying? apparently the game hasnt been released yet

#

still early access

#

And this is kind of a new thing in games now
We'll see if the game can avoid suffering from player fatigue at this point

#

quakers have been playing this game for 2+ years

#

early access or not

#

They are probably bored

urban skiff Jul 20, 2019, 9:21 PM

#

Hello everybody, I was wondering if I could get some advice on how to start a career in the gaming industry. I'm an event/environmental designer currently with advanced skills in 3d modeling and rendering with Rhino and Vray. I quit my job 2 months ago and started to learn Unreal Engine and I'm looking to transition into a junior role somewhere. Can someone tell me what are some good methods to start doing this? Do I need a portfolio of made games? Or can I make 1 really advanced game as my portfolio piece? Because I'm currently running with the advanced game.

spice dagger Jul 20, 2019, 9:23 PM

#

Build your portfolio as an Artist. You dont need to create a game yourself to be noticed. Make amazing Art that highlights your skills and interests and then apply for positions as you go.

plucky hatch Jul 20, 2019, 9:25 PM

#

You also do not have to create entire scenes. You can make well thought props or scene corners.

#

📎 23_.jpg

#

📎 stately_home_final1080_title.png

urban skiff Jul 20, 2019, 10:49 PM

#

Ah, ok great thanks guys. Would game developers even look at previous non-game work like the stuff at www.jwawong.com ? Or I should create a separate game portfolio?

spice dagger Jul 20, 2019, 10:50 PM

#

Im not an Artist but it would probably better that you focus on game related art if thats what your hoping to get into in the future.

#

But any portfolio pieces are better than none.

#

If you have nothing but high poly archvis pieces and your trying to apply for a low poly fantasy style job position, you would fair better had you took the time to make a few geared towards that style.

tidal moth Jul 22, 2019, 1:14 AM

#

generally game art is better because it shows that you paid attention to the special cases that exist in games... key of which is performance optimization @urban skiff

glad pasture Jul 22, 2019, 4:58 PM

#

Heyo, I just got in here from GameDev - Anyone here point me to the right channel to find a Team as a 3D artist?

fickle hatch Jul 22, 2019, 4:59 PM

#

#looking-for-talent

plucky hatch Jul 22, 2019, 9:35 PM

#

Build a strong portfolio first.
Might help you make friends.

#

Sucks. But it is what it is.

plucky hatch Jul 22, 2019, 10:59 PM

#

You'll always get different answers.
However, it's best to ask those who are directly in charge of recruiting those who need such portfolio.

#

In general, companies look for potential employees that already embrace and match their style

#

You won't show a hand painted portfolio to work on the Rainbow Six Siege Art Team, right?

#

Just like you won't show a League of Legends-inspired game design document if you intend to work at Id Software on DOOM Eternal or the one after.

dire whale Jul 22, 2019, 11:07 PM

#

How hard is it to join the games industry without a bachelors degree?

#

I might've screwed up my last year of college because for some stupid reason I decided to prioritize my own dev projects to college work

#

If let's say I have a solid portfolio, would that be able to balance out a missing degree?

verbal escarp Jul 22, 2019, 11:09 PM

#

@dire whale from what I've heard, portfolio is the most important bit

dire whale Jul 22, 2019, 11:09 PM

#

That's what I've heard and seen too

verbal escarp Jul 22, 2019, 11:10 PM

#

Places I have looked into have actively said on applications that they don't care how you learned, only how good your work is.

dire whale Jul 22, 2019, 11:11 PM

#

It's a bit scary thinking about it

verbal escarp Jul 22, 2019, 11:11 PM

#

Yeah it is lol

dire whale Jul 22, 2019, 11:11 PM

#

I'll do whatever it takes to get there anyway, but thanks for the insight

verbal escarp Jul 22, 2019, 11:11 PM

#

Sadly I have a degree in an unrelated field, only just relizing what I actually want to do, sighs

dire whale Jul 22, 2019, 11:12 PM

#

I still have the last resort of convincing the headmasters of the universities to accept me, but that takes a good interview and portfolio

#

Good luck to you, it's never too late to change your degree, I hope you'll get there one day ^^

verbal escarp Jul 22, 2019, 11:12 PM

#

Good luck to you too! I'm sure you'll figure it out :)

dire whale Jul 22, 2019, 11:13 PM

#

Well tbh the biggest hurdle rn is my father

#

Hahahaha

#

But thanks!

verbal escarp Jul 22, 2019, 11:13 PM

#

Oof family hurdles haha, always fun 😅

dire whale Jul 22, 2019, 11:15 PM

#

Ikr

#

GWllentSansFingerGuns

plucky hatch Jul 22, 2019, 11:38 PM

#

Unless they are required by law to hire people with degrees, for many jobs in the video games industry, what degrees you got won't matter

#

It's just nice to have

#

It's all portfolio + networking

#

But if you are a programmer, it's a big plus to have university - anywhere

#

All companies are a business and they often do their best to underpay you

#

When I first started in the industry, our company didn't even have level designers. We had a different title, because they were trying to underpay us by pretending Game Designer was a promotion.

#

Rather than being a different job

verbal escarp Jul 23, 2019, 12:32 AM

#

Urgh

#

careers in game dev can get pretty rough

#

At least it seems attention is starting to be pulled onto that though

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 12:33 AM

#

It's not for everyone. And not everyone is accepted...

#

The same way we've seen students get teachers fired

#

Because they didnt like the teacher

#

Ive seen nice people lose jobs because their team didnt like them much

verbal escarp Jul 23, 2019, 12:36 AM

#

Yikes

#

Grind is mainly what I was thinking about

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 12:36 AM

#

One of my teams got the lead fired or they basically forced him to leave the studio

#

Softly

#

He became a teacher and I have no idea where he is at now

#

But that's lame.

verbal escarp Jul 23, 2019, 12:37 AM

#

☹ oh no

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 12:37 AM

#

If you do martial arts and do tournaments with your school
Or if you go in the army, etc. or play games competitively
You don't have to like your teammates

#

You team up and do the work

#

But people in game studios are really trying to find friends

#

wanna work with friends

#

And I dont think they get that,... not everyone can be your friend

verbal escarp Jul 23, 2019, 12:38 AM

#

Bizarre

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 12:38 AM

#

Sometimes, you just need those loners or those guys that are socially awkward

#

That are really good at what they do

verbal escarp Jul 23, 2019, 12:39 AM

#

I'm not at all a social person, I just want to make something cool

#

But tbh I see that as a real handicap, all openings stress being social/team oriented

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 12:40 AM

#

Well it depends

#

In general, you have 1 core team and everyone else that tend to be more expendable

#

You want to get into the core team

verbal escarp Jul 23, 2019, 12:41 AM

#

& that takes befriending/networking?

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 12:42 AM

#

Well it depends also of the studio culture

#

Some studios do probably a better job at including everyone in the meetings

verbal escarp Jul 23, 2019, 12:42 AM

#

True I can imagine

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 12:43 AM

#

When I first started to work in the industry, we had small teams of 10-25 people.
When it jumped to 50, only the core team had meeting and everyone else was just... there

#

Like they couldnt feel personally attached to the project

#

they were doing work for the core team

#

like numbers

#

I think some studios solved this by creating multiple sub-teams

#

Hub team, mission team, etc

#

open world team

#

whatever

#

So every little sub-team feels in charge and invested

#

@verbal escarp Are you looking for a job?

#

Or you work already in the industry?

#

ha! oky nvm, I found your post in intro

verbal escarp Jul 23, 2019, 12:47 AM

#

Well I'm not too far into getting a good portfolio together:) just thinking ahead.

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 12:47 AM

#

Are you going for 3D animator jobs?

#

riggeR?

verbal escarp Jul 23, 2019, 12:47 AM

#

I really struggle to niche down

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 12:47 AM

#

Pick one:P

#

lol

#

yeah, that's not easy either if you have too many interests

verbal escarp Jul 23, 2019, 12:48 AM

#

Right now Animation is definitely my best skill

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 12:48 AM

#

If I'm brutally honest with myself, I'm secretly a 3D animator who decided to get into everything else

#

Because I always felt there was no job in 3D animation X_x

verbal escarp Jul 23, 2019, 12:49 AM

#

Ahahahaha that sounds familiar

#

https://youtu.be/PB5rvKg5wPk

YouTube

Calwyne

Female Walk Cycle

▶ Play video

#

This is my recent piece, just working out knee pop

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 12:51 AM

#

I can tell it's animated. kappaross

verbal escarp Jul 23, 2019, 12:52 AM

#

😅

#

Although everything is starting to turn into mocap now

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 12:57 AM

#

🤣 I'm sure there is still room for both

late arch Jul 23, 2019, 12:59 AM

#

Your animation reminds me of something

#

OH YEAH.

#

I know what.

#

https://youtu.be/XDAaTzccCik

YouTube

losSN

Mars Attacks! - Martian Girl

Here is a video withe the best martian in mars attacks,the spy girl the song is martian spy girl,by danny elfamn

▶ Play video

#

There it is. That's what it looks like.

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 1:03 AM

#

loll

#

indeed

late arch Jul 23, 2019, 1:06 AM

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I don't mean this in a bad way tho

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It's well made.

verbal escarp Jul 23, 2019, 1:10 AM

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Omg lmao

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And thanks, :)

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I just got told what to make:p they like giving wacky assignments

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A lot of animation jobs ask for really broad skillsets though

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I keep seeing jobs at major studios asking for animation/rigging/texturing/modelling

rain pebble Jul 23, 2019, 6:48 PM

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I have a question, How would someone that is aspiring to be a game designer go about getting attention in the industry? I have several game concepts in the works, most just in the general idea and one almost fully flushed out. what can I do?

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:07 PM

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think most people just lie on their resume

vernal kraken Jul 23, 2019, 7:08 PM

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that is not very helpful @plucky hatch

karmic kayak Jul 23, 2019, 7:08 PM

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hmm

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:09 PM

#

@rain pebble
You can get a level design job or else and gain visibility within a company

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@vernal kraken might be the fastest way, i like skilljutsu's long approach too

#

Game design positions are hard to get

vernal kraken Jul 23, 2019, 7:10 PM

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make games

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small ones

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experiment in innovative mechanics

karmic kayak Jul 23, 2019, 7:11 PM

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I doubt lying on your resume will be the fastest way

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unless you mean how to get out of the industry

vernal kraken Jul 23, 2019, 7:11 PM

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it's the fastest way into the trash bin

karmic kayak Jul 23, 2019, 7:11 PM

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yep

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:12 PM

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game designer might be the most difficult position to get for a wide variety of reasons

west sonnet Jul 23, 2019, 7:12 PM

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No real secret formula; have a portfolio, network

vernal kraken Jul 23, 2019, 7:12 PM

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^

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:13 PM

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Id say make great games

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:14 PM

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Think about joining Game Jams as Game Designer and/or Game Design education (which will allow you to struct your stuff and learn more, plus get some pretty white piece of paper), either way should allow you to increase your portfolio

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:14 PM

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3d portfolio is tangible
A game designer portfolio... it is very abstract and it is difficult to confirm the value of a designer

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:14 PM

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?

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I've seen plenty great GD portfolios online honestly

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Either straight up GDD drafts

honest cipher Jul 23, 2019, 7:15 PM

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for GD you can make mods

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:15 PM

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Or Prototypes

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Modding is similar as well

honest cipher Jul 23, 2019, 7:15 PM

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want to show you can be a good game designer, why not a dota2 custom game or something of the sort

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yeah

karmic kayak Jul 23, 2019, 7:15 PM

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tbh in my exp. it even varies from studio to studio what a game designer does

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:15 PM

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You don't need to be a programmer to do simple prototypes, especially in UE4

karmic kayak Jul 23, 2019, 7:15 PM

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pretty hard to pin down

honest cipher Jul 23, 2019, 7:15 PM

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its better than doing prototype games because you are building on top of something, and at least you have assets and an engine

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:16 PM

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I think Game Jams are the best bang for your buck

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If you can find a team that allows you to just do the creative thinking part, and everyone else can do their jobs to create a game.

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2-5 days, you have your game

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Literally hundreds of jams going off every day

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well, maybe every week

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:17 PM

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I personnally dont think game jams are good way to show off gd skills for games that can take years to make and need to sell millions of copies

honest cipher Jul 23, 2019, 7:18 PM

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the job of a junior game designer is going to do stuff like create sidequests or balance some spells, not much more than that

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:18 PM

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@kindred mason is that well received? joining a game jam with little skills but the ideas for a design?

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:19 PM

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Well, for jams, you design around the theme typically

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That's part of the creative thinking part that people want to see

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Since you will typically aren't going to be doing anything YOU want to do at a studio. You'll be doing what someone ELSE wants to do 😃

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So you'll need to design around what they want.

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:20 PM

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game mods would be more valuable than a game jam

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more work

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:20 PM

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Thing about mods though, you need to still be familiar with that game/modding tools

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You don't have to really know anything about anything in a jam

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:20 PM

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that is what worries me

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:20 PM

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You're a spreadsheet/google docs person

honest cipher Jul 23, 2019, 7:20 PM

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in a jam you need to be able to use unity/unreal (mostly unity)

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:21 PM

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In a studio, it will be the same thing though

honest cipher Jul 23, 2019, 7:21 PM

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well, good luck finding the team

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no one wants a "idea guy" on their team

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:21 PM

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You aren't' going to necessarily know whatever engine they are using.

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:21 PM

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most game jams projects Ice seen were really bad

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:21 PM

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So they aren't exactly giving a poop about if you know how to use it

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:21 PM

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just what can we do in 3 days

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:21 PM

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You had bad team

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Or you've seen bad teams

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But trust me...plenty of nice projects have come in 2-7 days jams

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(plenty of them also keep working on them post jam)

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:22 PM

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I am joining Victor's team, great positivity

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:22 PM

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😉

fickle hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:23 PM

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I've enjoyed making games in 2-3 days long time ago

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:23 PM

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takes 2 weeks to design a multiplayer map. what can you do in 5 days? 🤡

fickle hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:23 PM

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I wish game jams were a thing back then

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:23 PM

#

@lilac walrus maybe you can elaborate on how you got your start on being a GD

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@plucky hatch That's not true

#

You can easily make great MP maps in 2-3 days

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Again, just look at any number of random UE4jams

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Especially MegaJams though

#

You'll see some crazy things that people have been able to build within those time constraints

honest cipher Jul 23, 2019, 7:24 PM

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ive particicipated a few times, but ive allways (ALLWAYS) got bottlenecked from lack of artist/level designer

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:25 PM

#

But anyway, the gist of it is, there are many ways to get into whatever field you want to get into in game development. Up to you how you do it. Some are easier than others.

#

But strictly speaking, Game Designers may indeed that the higher cost of entry.

#

The highest struggle showing off their skills

#

But it's not impossible.

honest cipher Jul 23, 2019, 7:26 PM

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due to how hard it is to demonstrate, and its a set of skills that is not very well defined

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:26 PM

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Aye

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:26 PM

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agree

fickle hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:28 PM

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In the end, it's also about raw time investment

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You just gotta keep doing it over and over

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:28 PM

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i think there is extra emotions and egos involved with the game design position, because of a perception of authority

honest cipher Jul 23, 2019, 7:28 PM

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if i wanted to hire a designer

fickle hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:28 PM

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You only get professional if you get what, 10,000 hours of doing something? Something roughly like that 😄

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:28 PM

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Do you think it is easy to show that you can make something fun, challenging and can have mass appeal?

honest cipher Jul 23, 2019, 7:28 PM

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i wouldnt give the slightest fk about degree (game design degrees are worthless)

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and i would look at mods, gamejams, or prototypes

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just a GDD would matter nothing to me

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i want to see products that work

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:29 PM

#

The answer might really come down to what kind of designer they need

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@honest cipher do you think good design skills are directly related to good programming or production skills?

honest cipher Jul 23, 2019, 7:30 PM

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no

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but i would favor a game designer that knows programming

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:30 PM

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Those are all skills that are valuable and difficult to show off

honest cipher Jul 23, 2019, 7:30 PM

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as that means he can (even if shoddily) implement his own stuff

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:31 PM

#

Honestly. For me, if I were to hire a Designer (either GD or LD), I want to see documents

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GDDs or LDDs

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Because you save quite a bit of time in the long run

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Before implementation

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You can usually spot lots of issues before then

rain pebble Jul 23, 2019, 7:32 PM

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Game design is a fun thing for me, ive made many mods for games, written many questlines/stories. I even went to a school that taught animation and game design (more animation than design) but did really good in the design courses.

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:34 PM

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@rain pebble Link to your portfolio?

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List of works done?

rain pebble Jul 23, 2019, 7:36 PM

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currently a WIP for my revamped porfolio with game design documentation and the like, but this is all I currently have in general. http://leer3dmodeling.blogspot.com/

Lee R 3D Modeling

fickle hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:39 PM

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Would be nice to have a more up to date idea of what you do

mystic hull Jul 23, 2019, 7:40 PM

#

You also mentioned mods, pretty sure those can be important if they're significant 🤔

rain pebble Jul 23, 2019, 7:42 PM

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I made a mod for older games, Star Trek Armada 1-2 Command and Conquer 3 Tiberium wars, Heroes of might and magic 5. I currently am working on a design for a RPG, (Witcher 3 meets Dragon Age)

lilac walrus Jul 23, 2019, 7:43 PM

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@kindred mason I'm out right now, and can probably answer later, but what would people like to know?

rain pebble Jul 23, 2019, 7:45 PM

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I look forward to continuing this conversation, but I need to step out now, life calls.

#

Thank you all for the conversation and information, I really appreciate it.

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 7:48 PM

#

@lilac walrus Basically what steps you took to land your first job as a Game Designer. How did you (if you did) flesh out a portfolio? (since it's hard to "show off") and any other little tips/tricks for anyone trying to make a name for themselves as a Game Designer.

#

@rain pebble Your "blog/portfolio" is very lacking in the direction of what you're trying to do (be a GD)

#

Also... Interesting that you chose to do this clay thing: http://leer3dmodeling.blogspot.com/2014/

Lee R 3D Modeling

#

📎 JPEG_20190723_155224.jpg

fickle hatch Jul 23, 2019, 7:59 PM

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I love that

kindred mason Jul 23, 2019, 8:17 PM

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Heh, yeah, must be a basic thing all the schools do

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I tried to combine as many animals as I could there

fickle hatch Jul 23, 2019, 8:28 PM

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I like the silly eyes

plucky hatch Jul 23, 2019, 10:27 PM

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For a game designer. I would want to make sure that the designer is well rounded.

Show some game analysis. Tell me what sold games and what killed others. Show me that you understand fun challenging gameplay. But also show me that you understand how to make a game that can appeal to a majority. Show me some understanding of gameplay, controls, game systems and mission structure.

Some understanding of game menus, ergonomy, UI... Show me you understand story telling for games, camera plans, wow moments, etc. Show me your familiarity with the games we make. Show me you are good enough at this type of game and understand how players think, how they play, what they want and are looking for. And show me that you have a certain understanding of game dev, programming, level design, 3d modeling, etc. Show me you can manage a team, a project and make them understand a vision.

rain pebble Jul 24, 2019, 12:55 AM

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I think I have much of that on actual paper for the GD doc I am working on ATM, but I was also told to not share too much and that I find hard to do if I am trying to get attention, kind of like being told to go left while going right.

plucky hatch Jul 24, 2019, 1:35 AM

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Game design documents that are well balanced, I find, are really cool.
A mix of text and images well put together to be really straight forward

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I hate when designers write a book and are unable to explain something efficiently in just a few lines and 1 image.

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One giant brick of text... is that how you teach players how to play? 🤡

fickle hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:10 AM

#

I don't like the classic game design documents

#

(For me) it's easier to make a prototype than try to imagine forward into the future how the players will interact with the game

#

So instead of the GDD in the classic sense we have a folder of documents that does the same thing

#

But the separate documents evolve separately

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Biggest one being the actual design document, for visual and audio stuff

plucky hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:13 AM

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👉 📁

fickle hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:13 AM

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It's a conceptual folder 😄

plucky hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:13 AM

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😂 All good.

fickle hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:14 AM

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Not a real one since it's all digital

plucky hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:14 AM

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Yeah, either that or a Wiki I prefer.

fickle hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:14 AM

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A folder is just one specific engineering type of organizing documents

#

A folder is basically a large document concatenated from many

plucky hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:14 AM

#

in my experience, everyone on the team doesnt care about reading a GDD.

fickle hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:15 AM

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Precisely. We try to write stuff that people read and don't write stuff nobody would read

plucky hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:15 AM

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Except the lead designer, the producer and the bosses

#

lol

#

So, documentation can be a bit of a huge waste of time

#

I'd rather have a designer focused on the game itself

fickle hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:16 AM

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Yup. I think a prototype that you can play documents the gameplay way better than any text that was made prior to any gameplay being implemented

plucky hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:16 AM

#

Yeah

fickle hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:16 AM

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Okay, this is again not career chat, I'm gonna go to design chat

plucky hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:16 AM

#

Nah it still is career chat

#

People have no idea what companies expect from designers

#

And many expect different types of designers

rain pebble Jul 24, 2019, 9:07 AM

#

I have a stack of notebooks, binders, stray papers, sketches, sketch books and other random related papers next to me and other documents on my computer in many folders just for the one project I am working on. I have dissected and gutted several games that I did and still do play of the RPG ish style, I googles ones that did good and bad, why fans loved or hated them and talked to friends and co workers about the ones they liked and why. My game idea, is bigger than skyrim, but I am no fool to think that I could make a skyrim on my own, no no no no no. Bare bones prototype, that much I know should be the over all goal. Many people told me to start small, but I always felt doing small things get buried in the masses, needed something to stand out.

plucky hatch Jul 24, 2019, 10:06 AM

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because you dont want to spend all that time on a game that you.feel wouldnt be worth your time

#

Id say you need to work on the biggest SMALLEST thing.

#

🤡

#

What is the most you can do with the least amount of efforts?

plucky hatch Jul 24, 2019, 2:48 PM

#

if the bigger than skyrim project is your goal try to find practical steps to get there, and execute the most important steps first. at some point you will need help and that help will cost money. estimate how much help and money and develop a plan to get it. a good back ground in the game industry could help you get that money. i cant imagine what it would take to get an established studio to trust you with a project that large. do not be deterred, some ideas are outright winners, and if your project is that, you just need to get the right people to believe in you.

rain pebble Jul 24, 2019, 6:59 PM

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My goal I think, is to just make the little prototype, but have the massive concept worked out the best I can and make a site etc for it and so on. The hope getting some attention, I also have an idea for an actual novel for it (not main story but for a character) that could help too. In my GDD class, we were asked to make 1 concept, I made 6 fully fleshed out, small, documents for different games of different types, did it in about 2-3 weeks. was so much fun ^_^

patent mountain Jul 25, 2019, 12:12 AM

#

Update: i asked yal for advice long ago about pay per hour for freelancing, I ended up accepting 30$ per hour and got robbed by my client. Then I charged 50$ for a week of work for another client. I now charge 79$ an hour. Clients pay, I'm happy they are happy and life is great. Never sell yourself short. (also people here told me to charge more than 50, and i was stubborn and was like nah i can do 30 for first time, another thing, always charge up front or use something like upwork where things only get delivered once you are paid / or by milestones)

mystic hull Jul 25, 2019, 12:15 AM

#

Well nice o.o

#

Mind if I ask where/how you find your clients? 🤔

patent mountain Jul 25, 2019, 12:43 AM

#

Upwork

#

Fiverr

#

This last 1 found me thru my upwork profile

patent mountain Jul 25, 2019, 1:59 AM

#

you have to be persistent though, on upwork i spent a couple of hours applying for the all the jobs they had for programmers, and i think 1 of them eventually replied back after like a month...

#

also in the #looking-for-work #looking-for-talent channels post your profile ocassionally and look at jobs available

#

@mystic hull

mystic hull Jul 25, 2019, 2:24 AM

#

Interesting, I used to work on freelancer, but it has been oversaturated with very cheap bids from chinese devs

#

Would you say upwork is reliable as a freelance platform? I honestly want to quit my current job at some point

fickle hatch Jul 25, 2019, 2:59 AM

#

@patent mountain I'm glad to hear you got that sorted out!

#

I personally follow the "pay by milestones" model when working with artists with always something (substantial) upfront, I think it's a good balance between power to the artist and power to the client

patent mountain Jul 25, 2019, 3:21 AM

#

Blue, so far i've gotten 2 bids on upwork(but 1 has been continuous work).. i think a good client knows the difference between low cost dev work and high quality stuff, i was doing some VR arch viz, i think that sorta client would know what they are looking for.... i wouldn't go and quit your day job on this though... im still planning on launching some games as my main gig, the freelance thing is a side gig

plucky hatch Jul 25, 2019, 9:01 AM

#

Hey guys,hope that this is the right room to ask this! ^_^
I want to add some Level Design stuff to my portfolio (I see a lot of positions but I only have 3d models for now)
what I want to know is -

Is it OK to download asset-pack from some marketplace and use that to build a level for my portfolio? (with credit of course)
In order to stand out more, should I also put extra effort on lights, effects and such? or there's just no need
if there's any other stuff that I should add to my level designs I'll be happy to hear, how to present them and such...
I'm asking this because I have very limited time to work on my portfolio each day and if I'm going to work on it I want to know that I'm not just wasting my time...
thank for anyone who helps 😉

elder mist Jul 25, 2019, 10:58 AM

#

@plucky hatch Level Design != Environment Art

#

Many people confused by those 2.

#

LD is placing blocks and game logic to make gameplay and lead the player through game.
EA is making LD look pretty/atmospheric and focus the eyesight on a particular places.

#

Regarding the LD the only good place is - https://www.mapcore.org/
For the EA - does not matter actually. Just make a pretty looking level. Epic provided a LOT of free assets on MP for free, also on Learning tab. I've spent days just sorting them.

Mapcore

#

This article/tutorial is a best place to start with for ue4 Level Artist imo: https://www.worldofleveldesign.com/categories/ue4/ue4-how-i-created-the-corridor-environment-in-10-hours.php

UE4: Workflow How I Created "The Corridor" Environment in 10 Hours...

Workflow overview of Unreal Engine 4 The Corridor environment and how it was created in 10 hours.

mystic hull Jul 25, 2019, 1:05 PM

#

@patent mountain Well, thank you sire. I shall try my luck on upwork 😛

frosty minnow Jul 26, 2019, 1:46 AM

#

Does anyone know where I can get some ue4 character workout animations. I'm willing to pay for a few.

obsidian coral Jul 26, 2019, 1:37 PM

#

#animation

pastel spoke Jul 26, 2019, 7:03 PM

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@frosty minnow Try Mixamo

cunning sonnet Jul 27, 2019, 3:30 AM

#

Hey guys and girls. I have a question because I need help making a decision. How valued is a University degree within the industry?

#

I'm really struggling with the idea of staying at Uni. All I can think about is my business. And I'm finding I get unhappy when I'm not working on my project. I am also starting to feel like there isn't much left for University to teach me. The stuff I do on a daily far surpasses the stuff I do at Uni in terms of skill level.

flat gazelle Jul 27, 2019, 5:14 AM

#

Search this channel for degree. It gets discussed a couple of times per week.

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 5:32 AM

#

My ex-boss (design director) told me that he rarely hire Game Designers that don't have university degree.

#

"Some" people value it, others don't.
Life.

#

Won't hurt you if you have one...

cunning sonnet Jul 27, 2019, 6:07 AM

#

Thanks for the response guys. I will definately do some searching. For me I plan to work only for myself. Having worked for myself I don't think I could ever go back to working for someone else.

hoary thunder Jul 27, 2019, 6:28 AM

#

I agree with Skilljutsu#1073 totally @cunning sonnet

#

I'm speaking as someone.. who doesn't have a design degree..

#

I do have a business grad degree

cunning sonnet Jul 27, 2019, 6:51 AM

#

I have a diploma and associates. I'm just struggling with it. Because I want to work for myself. I can't actually decide how much I value a bachelors degree

hoary thunder Jul 27, 2019, 6:54 AM

#

Look around this server or other high traffic servers.. and the struggle of other people .. and you will find.. that people with degrees and without them.. are both struggling

#

Then ask yourself in all honesty... what is life without some struggle?

#

📎 comeonyouapes.jpg

#

here is a little meme for you.. (a life lesson and a movie suggestion disguised as a meme)

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 1:16 PM

#

@cunning sonnet a degree shows that you can complete a task (a task like completing uni) even when it doesn't make sense or is un enjoyable. this is important because employers need you to show up and finish their tasks. Starting salary negotiations tend to get pegged to level of education too. As far as being an entrepreneur or learning things, you can try to do those while you are taking classes. I would only abandon education if you had a concrete opportunity waiting.

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 2:22 PM

#

I have 3 degrees

ACS, Game level Design from Campus Ubisoft
ACS, 3D modeling for games Campus ADN (formerly known as Campus Ubisoft)
ACS, Programmer Analyst /Internet solutions developer

And it doesn't make it easier to get jobs.

#

📝 take notes

#

You need a strong portfolio. And that takes a F lot of time to make.

#

And then you also need to stay current with tech.

#

That's more time to invest.

#

If you have acquired multiple skills during your career... guess what

#

The industry is fucked. We don't have time for those portfolios and tests for every job

#

Unemployed? Recruiters might ignore you and be trying to spam seniors at X studios instead that don't even want their jobs

#

But once you are in.
You are good.

glossy forge Jul 27, 2019, 3:13 PM

#

@plucky hatch I think the best chances you have are doing an internship somewhere, and then staying in that company after the internship

#

Thats how I got in, and stayed in for almost 13 years now

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 3:18 PM

#

The issue is when you leave ''for too long''.

#

Or get layed off, can't find jobs.
Or get fired for X obscure reasons.
Etc

#

Once you are in, it's all good.

#

I know a guy who got fired for no valid other than the producer just felt like it

#

And that guy... never found another job after in the industry

#

Wrong place, wrong time

#

more welfare > employer's won't be able to give out so much bs, disgruntled employees can just quit and try and go indie

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 4:02 PM

#

I should point out that an ACS is not a degree, nor is it the equivalent of one

#

it is a secondary-level diploma

#

it would be held with the kind of regard that a UK BTEC or Foundation diploma would be

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 4:04 PM

#

What is ACS?

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 4:04 PM

#

Regarding diplomas, i wanna ask you guys something

#

I took mathematics (linear algebra, differential calculus etc) back in highschool

#

but tbh outside of the stuff I've been using in my work, I dont remember much 😂

#

How do interviewers measure that kind of thing?

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 4:06 PM

#

ACS is an 'Attestation of College Studies'

#

Quebec, like the UK makes a distinction between 'College' and 'University'

#

@mystic hull - if you're going for a junior programming position they may well test it

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 4:07 PM

#

Not junior no

#

So it doesnt get that much attention in the higher ranks?

#

I'm almost positive id fail anything outside from vector math & physics

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 4:07 PM

#

it's assumed if you've held positions before that you're probably competent enough already and don't need to be tested

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 4:07 PM

#

Aha, fair enough, thanks!

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 4:24 PM

#

I don't remember most from my maths degree, it was very proof based and all built on itself

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 4:29 PM

#

Yeah exactly

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 4:32 PM

#

mind you some of the vector space stuff is pretty useful, I can go over that

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 4:34 PM

#

Yeah same, I still remember some of the calculus really, just not nearly as much as I used to back then

#

been years 🤷

#

I just use resources to get the formulas, if I ever need to now

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 4:35 PM

#

as far as I can tell, linear algebra stuff is pretty useful, plus you need some 3d calculus skills if you want to do some graphics stuff

#

but you don't need anything super advanced

#

since it's probably all built into the game engine already

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 4:36 PM

#

Mhmm makes sense

#

Thanks again! 😛

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 5:51 PM

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@lilac walrus
You are so fucking WRONG

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 5:52 PM

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an ACS is not a degree

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 5:52 PM

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Yes it is.

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 5:52 PM

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it is NOT equivalent to a Bachelors or Masters

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 5:52 PM

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YES IT IS

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Those Attestation of Collegial Studies are specifically designed for the market

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The game design courses in university aren't better than the ACS

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I know.

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I talked to the creator of those courses

vernal kraken Jul 27, 2019, 5:53 PM

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🍿

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 5:53 PM

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game design courses at university might not be better, but the ACS is not equivalent to a Bachelors

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it's a vocational diploma

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 5:54 PM

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Those programs are intense 1.5 years programs

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And I had countless discussions with the creators of those programs.

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The fact is, ideally those programs should be 2 years long.
By law, they cannot

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So 1.5 years is what they come up with

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And those courses are equivalent to a 3 years DEC

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there is no University equivalence

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it is ''it''

vernal kraken Jul 27, 2019, 5:56 PM

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associate_degree

Associate degree

An associate degree is an undergraduate degree awarded, primarily in the United States, after a course of post-secondary study lasting two or three years. It is a level of qualification between a high school diploma or GED and a bachelor's degree.
The first associate degrees...

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 5:56 PM

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Here we have high School -> CEGEP -> University

vernal kraken Jul 27, 2019, 5:56 PM

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sounds like an AD

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 5:56 PM

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yeah, an American Associates is somewhat similar

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in the UK Associates was replaced by Foundation

vernal kraken Jul 27, 2019, 5:57 PM

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i don't know anything about @plucky hatch 's program, but i'd say that the word degree isn't necessarily limited to bachelor, master, diploma

ashen lynx Jul 27, 2019, 5:57 PM

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It is a level of qualification between a high school diploma or GED and a bachelor's degree. Ambershee is victorious in this verbal battle.

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 5:57 PM

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it's a post-secondary / secondary diploma

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 5:58 PM

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The ACS I've done were designed by Ubisoft exployees.

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It's very specific to the industry needs

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The creator of the design program was Lous-Martin Guay

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 5:58 PM

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it doesn't matter, it's still not equivalent to a bachelors degree

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 5:58 PM

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For game/level design

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Dude, a bachelors degree is fucking random

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 5:59 PM

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even if it were the best quality qualification out there, and the course was far better than any alternative, it is what it is

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 5:59 PM

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Those ACS are job specific

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There is nothing higher than those

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 5:59 PM

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so are BTECs

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 5:59 PM

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it's that or the job

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 5:59 PM

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a BTEC is still not a degree

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 5:59 PM

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University makes no sense in this conversation

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It's you not understanding what those programs are

vernal kraken Jul 27, 2019, 6:00 PM

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i thought you guys had already agreed that ACS != bachelor ?

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:00 PM

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ACS is industry specific

ashen lynx Jul 27, 2019, 6:01 PM

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BCs>ACS

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:01 PM

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It's basically a 3 years DEC without the bullshits (English, French, Philosophy, maths, etc.)

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And it's industry specific

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 6:01 PM

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many Bachelor programs are industry specific

finite mulch Jul 27, 2019, 6:01 PM

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"maths" "bullshit"

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voxelthonk

vernal kraken Jul 27, 2019, 6:01 PM

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who summoned @finite mulch

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we be fucked now

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 6:02 PM

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phy arrives precisely when he means to

finite mulch Jul 27, 2019, 6:02 PM

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k understood I'll leave

ashen lynx Jul 27, 2019, 6:02 PM

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If you remove maths and other bullshit, what is there remains that isn't self-explanatory ?

vernal kraken Jul 27, 2019, 6:02 PM

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never too early, never too late

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@finite mulch 💟

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:02 PM

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What you dont understand is those ACS could be thought in University.
Instead, they created the UBISOFT CAMPUS

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 6:03 PM

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I know what the "Ubisoft Campus" is

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:03 PM

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The Game Design program was thought in University, but was far less complete than our Game/Level Design ACS

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Im sure you "know", I've studied there in 2005-2007 and 2013-2014

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:03 PM

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@finite mulch honestly ive learnt far more math on my own than on uni

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Khan Academy has all the knowledge you need

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:03 PM

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So I don't think you "know" much

finite mulch Jul 27, 2019, 6:04 PM

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I guess it depends on your uni 🤷

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:04 PM

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in fact, i passed path subjects at school thanks to khan academy XD

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@finite mulch well, the thing is that math, like programming, is very "personal"

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it cant be taught in a clasroom scenario

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this is why khan academy is such a massive improvement

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and 3blue1brown

ashen lynx Jul 27, 2019, 6:04 PM

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Guess it does depend indeed. I had to catch up on math quickly on the job. And yeah, khan did help.

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:04 PM

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3blue1brown has lots of visualization stuff

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so it teaches things not in a pure math way, but in a much more visual way

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makes it easier to understand

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khan just has everything

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and if you dont understand

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watch video again

ashen lynx Jul 27, 2019, 6:05 PM

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Memories of writing down notes on math lectures still haunt me.

finite mulch Jul 27, 2019, 6:06 PM

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And I guess it depends on the maths you're doing too

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:06 PM

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"gets distracted 5 minutes"
"wall full of random unintelligible math formulas"
"... shit"

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:06 PM

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@lilac walrus
The bottom line is those ACS for game dev are the most efficient way that game companies/governments found to get people from ZERO to JOB READY.

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 6:06 PM

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that may be true

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they are still not equivalent to a bachelor's degree

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:07 PM

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They are completely different

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Your bachelor's degree means the perosn wasted 3 years prior in something possibly unrelated and got ''some'' courses in university

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It's bullshit

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 6:08 PM

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I dunno man, it seems to me you spent 3 years of your life on these courses and don't have a job in those vocations either

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pot, kettle, black

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:08 PM

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It's like claiming that someone who spend 3 years in Computer Science and 3 more years in Uni is more efficient than the guy who spent 1.5 years in a programmer analyst course and than worked for 4.5 more years.

Who is more job ready?

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lol...

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:09 PM

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but I love maths? D:

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I just dont remember most of it 😂

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:09 PM

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@mystic hull my problem with math at university was all the bullshit

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:09 PM

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though it was quite a heavy program

ashen lynx Jul 27, 2019, 6:09 PM

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That means that you have mastered it @mystic hull

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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I know what I learned fduring my programmer analyst program and I know how super inefficient it would have been for me to spend 3 years for a DEC and 3 more in University

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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in my university, the first year math was near-impossible to pass. It acted as a barrier as students need to pay twice if they fail

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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Hah, good to know! @ashen lynx

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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so they merged 2 math subjects into one

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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I would have forgotten most of it

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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and if you fail one of them

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you fail both

vernal kraken Jul 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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i'd say that the person who actively studied CS for 6 years will run circles around the self-taught person
generally

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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It's not self taught here

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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Sounds like the single year I spent at uni @honest cipher

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Though where I live, we take that kinda math in highschool if we so choose

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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It's 1.5 years instead of 3 years with random shit and then 3 years working for real VS the person who comes out from Uni

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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@mystic hull in my case, it was bullshit at the highest degree

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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I practically did the entire math course of CS + a bit more in HS

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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the first year, i did the algebra part well

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but failed calculus, by like 5% of the mark

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:11 PM

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The physics too, mechanical physics, electrical physics

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it was a bit overwhelming at some point

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:11 PM

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the second year, i didnt go to class on algebra (i already knew the stuff), and passed the calculus exam

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:11 PM

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Companies can't wait for people to spend 3 years in college + 3+ in University.
They need programmers NOW

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:11 PM

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but because i didnt go to class, failed algebra with a 8-10 exam mark and failed both

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:11 PM

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like.. fucking NOW

finite mulch Jul 27, 2019, 6:11 PM

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NOw

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:11 PM

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There are 3000 progs for 9000 jobs

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:11 PM

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nOw?

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:11 PM

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lmao not at all mate

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:11 PM

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yes now

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:11 PM

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there is a oversupply of programmers

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now...

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good programmers?

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fuck no

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:12 PM

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What they need is senior progammers

ashen lynx Jul 27, 2019, 6:12 PM

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My experience was mostly as vblanco describes, just reinforced by a fact that I would never use math intended for a job and a time, when no interwebz existed.

vernal kraken Jul 27, 2019, 6:12 PM

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fulltime salaries outside US still don't show that

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:12 PM

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or rather, experienced, talented senior programmers

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🤷

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 6:12 PM

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a dramatic oversupply of very junior programmers who aren't quite where they need to be

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:12 PM

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From my experience, at least

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:12 PM

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universities dont teach programming well

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they teach CS

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not programming

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and the first thing a junior has to learn

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is to unlearn most of the theoretical bullshit and focus on what programs actually do

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:12 PM

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if you make a research on IQ and population and how many smart ENOUGH people even wants to get into programming... It's not looking good

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 6:12 PM

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Software Engineering courses != Computer Science courses, at least in the systems I'm familiar with

finite mulch Jul 27, 2019, 6:12 PM

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IQ

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lol

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 6:12 PM

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the former is programming heavy

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:13 PM

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@lilac walrus in mine, there is both software engineering and CS

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:13 PM

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There's honestly a huge logical gap in what you just said @plucky hatch

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:13 PM

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and they are 90% the same

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just CS gets extra math, while software engineering gets extra Java

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:13 PM

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Programmers != game engineers of any sort

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I've known a 14 year old doing javascript websites 🤷

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 6:13 PM

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lol, extra Java

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:13 PM

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not kidding

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 6:13 PM

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whelp, that'll get them where they need to be 👍

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:13 PM

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they have extra "
business software" classes, and thats 100% java

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so more OOP bullshit and weird patterns, with a hint of webdev i think

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 6:13 PM

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Software Engineering in the UK usually starts with C++ from week one

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:13 PM

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and IQ does not correlate to how good someone is or can be at programming by any means

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its a virtual measurment of a very specific kind of "smartness"

honest cipher Jul 27, 2019, 6:14 PM

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@lilac walrus top 3 spanish CS university. We start with C++ first year, and then do only java

lilac walrus Jul 27, 2019, 6:14 PM

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and they'll be using C++ throughout the course (and exposed to other languages here and there)

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:14 PM

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which can and does increase the more you learn/practice

finite mulch Jul 27, 2019, 6:14 PM

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iquilezles.org <- the real IQ

vernal kraken Jul 27, 2019, 6:14 PM

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can i buy more IQ via micro-transactions?
asking for a friend

ashen lynx Jul 27, 2019, 6:14 PM

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my friend also inquiries.

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:14 PM

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What I said is that to beging with, you are all here in a game dev channel.
You guys are surrounded with people with decent IQs.

But in the real world, at large. If you do the research, you'll realize that there are ,millions of people that aren't smart enough to become programmer or get into game dev.
And then among the ones who are smart enough, not many are interested in working in this industry.

vernal kraken Jul 27, 2019, 6:14 PM

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inquiries

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:15 PM

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M8, I'm surrounded by the dumbest people you can imagine, if I measure it on programming skills/IQ

plucky hatch Jul 27, 2019, 6:15 PM

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Most people have no interest in programming

mystic hull Jul 27, 2019, 6:15 PM

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no kidding

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It's not a valid measurment

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And I highly disagree with this millions of people that aren't smart enough to become programmer

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You're not born smart, you become smart, if you choose/want to

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imho at least 🤷