if you have a single project that demonstrates that, or a few different ones each demonstrating an aspect of that it should be fine
#career-chat
tidal moth
at least to start out with
keep in mind that it's a tough market for the inexperienced
fickle hatch
@brittle lava you'll never be fully ready to 'start a business', so really it depends on how you feel about your project and how confidently you can pitch it (to people who will smell even the faintest hint of bullshit)
brittle lava
Okay, duty noted. We will start small. Thank you very much for the advice. BTW, is Udemy decent for learning UE4 and Unity?
brittle lava
Ok. Thank you.
hollow geyser
What’s your business supposed to be @brittle lava
Like what would people hire you for?
brittle lava
My business is planned to be a developer and publisher of both free to play games and single player games.
hollow geyser
So your portfolio is to like get funding?
Like are you planning on starting as the developer first or as the publisher first?
Those are two kind of disparate skill sets
Like being a publisher doesn’t require technical skills really, it mostly just requires money and management (and also convincing people you won’t rip them off when you’re first starting out)
tidal moth
I think the implication is more of a developer first route
hollow geyser
I would not suggest starting a development company when none of the principals have any game dev experience
That would be like starting Google when no one knows the first thing about a search engine
tidal moth
I mean the garage startup is still a viable route, as it has been in the past for game dev
but it does require to have some skills beforehand
e.g. if you don't have any 3d or programming skills, it's going to be a much harder journey
preferably both if one is starting a company
hollow geyser
Sure, but most of the successful indie developers previously worked elsewhere before starting their own studio
There are exceptions of course
But that’s the typical path
tidal moth
well most of the successful AAA devs started out in their garage 😉
to be clear I'm not disagreeing
flat gazelle
Not these days
tidal moth
I'm just saying the option is still there
tidal moth
the only reason we've seen more acceleration and the garage startup is being phased out is because game engines have become commodities
hollow geyser
But even those the people who started them were working at big companies
flat gazelle
Nowadays it's more common to take a AAA GM and give them a bunch of money to build a new studio
hollow geyser
Like John Carmack and others were working at Softdisk or something
Before they started Id
tidal moth
some did, some didn't
Io Interactive was literally 5 guys in a basement
with some programming and 3d experience out of school
lilac walrus
I don't think there are many AAA garage startups still in operation
flat gazelle
Ubisoft!
flat gazelle
Yves is still the CEO 😄
brittle lava
I see. So it looks like me and my friend should gain some game programming experience first before starting my business.
fickle hatch
Right now is not a good economic situation for garage startups
tidal moth
that is the better way of phrasing it @fickle hatch
lilac walrus
Ubisoft started out selling CDs to farmers 😄
fickle hatch
You gotta find that sugar daddy of some sort if you wanna start today
tidal moth
CD Projekt started out as a piracy business
fickle hatch
I'm going to say that you don't neccessarily need a great business idea/portfolio to start a company, just a sugar daddy is enough
lilac walrus
Ubisoft itself wasn't a gargage startup mind
fickle hatch
It's most likely going to be a daddy
hollow geyser
When CD Projekt went into development they had a lot of money from publishing, and they used that to fund development
fickle hatch
In one or other form
lilac walrus
that was a company established by people who'd already earned a fortune selling games to retailers
tidal moth
@hollow geyser sure, but still humble beginnings
hollow geyser
And CD Projekt hired at least some people that knew how to make games already when they started development
tidal moth
I don't think they hired people with experience as much as you think
fickle hatch
It became the CD Projekt you know today later on
tidal moth
yeah
really it only picked up with witcher 2, and then really hit the mainstream with witcher 3
the first witcher was a bit of a clusterfuck because of the inexperience of people
I know this from talking to those same people
lilac walrus
still better than most studio's first game, hehe
tidal moth
I'd say for its capital, it was comparable to AAA starts? first hitman was similar
I don't remember how the first warcraft was received, but blizzard definitely hit it big with warcraft 2
hollow geyser
I guess way I’d put it, you need either money or experience starting out (preferably both)
If you have neither I don’t see the business working out
tidal moth
agreed
tidal moth
doesn't have to game experience, but experience in related fields is a must
a programmer who can actually do their job well
flat gazelle
And some disregard for personal comfort.
lilac walrus
if you've been working in AAA for a while you've long since disregarded personal comfort 😄
tidal moth
a 3d artist could be an ex-architect, city planner, etc.
flat gazelle
Well, I know that. The college kid might not 😄
But running a company is next level of discomfort
Hell even running a freelance buisness was painful to me 😛 I don't really have an off button which is a bad thing if you want to you know, live.
tidal moth
it's a survival sim on the most difficult setting 😄
brittle lava
Thank you all very much for the advice. I will do my best to earn experience in programming and I have plans to take video game design courses for my Fall semester in college.
tidal moth
good luck
brittle lava
👍
barren crow
For a small freelance job what is the typical payment practice?
west sonnet
Hourly or upfront. Most just do nonrefundable PayPal invoice.
echo fossil
Day rate is the most common where I'm from
hollow geyser
I bill half day or full day, I don't bill in smaller increments
ivory estuary
What are good avenues for getting freelancing projects for unreal devs
hollow geyser
could try #looking-for-work or #looking-for-talent but it's kinda a conundrum because most people in lfw are wanting to get paid and most people in lft are wanting to offer nothing, haha
well, not nothing but nothing up front
like most people are offering royalties but realistically most of the projects won't make much of anything (or even get released)
tidal moth
I've seen some serious offers there for looking for talent, but to be honest the vast majority of applicants won't qualify for those
at least that was my cursory impression by looking through the looking for work list
hollow geyser
well, there are some full time paid ones there yeah
spice dagger
Your more likely to find serious ads on the forums than in #looking-for-talent
hollow geyser
but the contracting ones at least I've seen mostly are royalties
ivory estuary
I have been able to get some work in looking for talent but it's rare in between. Other than reddit, what other forums are likely?
plucky hatch
Id work for royalty only if it was with friends
west sonnet
Work only for royalty if you’re doing it as a hobby and headaches
plucky hatch
Oh yeah well if it's with friends you don't need to care for profits so much, but can still try
hollow geyser
if it's friends, and it's a hobby, and you already have other work that's paying the bills (or just are rich)
regal cloak
Hey guys what section do you add to your resume that includes content specific to the job you are applying for? Like I have general stuff but now I need to add a focused for this job part.
tidal moth
ideally your entire cv is focused towards the job you are looking for?
regal cloak
Well I sent my CV out to someone and then they asked me a few questions that I answered and they just said can you add those points to your CV.
So now IDK how to add those points? Add in a section with those points and make my CV longer or just remove some of the projects I have listed?
tidal moth
it's hard to say given that I don't know your CV or what you are applying for
mystic hull
or what the points are 😛
tidal moth
well it kind of matters because depending on what role you're applying for, the CV is half the battle
or less
especially if you're green
which I will assume you are based on the questions
regal cloak
I have Experience Section, Education Section, Projects Section , Languages and Design and Tool Section
I now have a section I seem to need to add that deals with this job in a more specific manner like lets say Machine Learning.
Do I add a For This Job Section?
Or Note Worthy Mentions Section?
if I'm green? @tidal moth
tidal moth
new to the industry
tidal moth
right
regal cloak
going from one O&G company to another
tidal moth
so why are you asking for help in a forum focused on game development?
tidal moth
I get that, but unreal is mostly used for games
regal cloak
Sure.
tidal moth
it's going to be hard to help you in your specific case because few people have been in that place before
regal cloak
It is a general CV question
regal cloak
sure.. like what looks good.
what contact information to put on
this is more in terms of general programming CV question
tidal moth
what looks good is that everything has a purpose on the CV and is focused directly towards a specific role
beyond that
in the games industry the portfolio matters more than the CV will ever do
I can't speak for what it looks like in oil and gas
but presumably you're working with some sort of simulations
so showcase what you've done with those simulations before
regal cloak
From my experience in any programming related job, what you've done looks way better than what you say you can do.
I just think this guy vetting my CV doesn't know what he is talking about
regal cloak
but he wants me to add more to my CV but like it isn't any thing related to the fields I already have
so I was asking where would those points go
inner anchor
is he a recruiter? It's pretty common for recruiters to know fuck-all about the jobs they're recruiting for
in every industry
regal cloak
He works for the Company, I'm not sure his exact position in the Company
inner anchor
even internal recruiters
tidal moth
the company you're applying for?
regal cloak
Yes
tidal moth
that is strange
regal cloak
My friend said he knows a guy from Company X let me send your resume to guy from company X, I send it to my friend and the guy from company X asks me some questions that I answer in the email, he responds saying update your resume with points from your answers and I'm sitting here thinking ummm how?
inner anchor
i mean, if he wants you to add something to your CV before passing it on, just do it. Consolidate your experiences and projects sections together if you have to, they tend to be highly related
regal cloak
Example answer was "Converted python code to other languages"
and "Got thanked by Epic for submitting bug fixes to their Engine"
Where do I put these things he wants me to add?
inner anchor
🤔 that's kinda weird. I wouldn't really rank those as "important things" on a cv
regal cloak
Some of things don't make sense like I answered
inner anchor
unless it was a specific project that required a ot of the first one
tidal moth
yeah
I would mention those in passing
but not put them down
python code conversion might be relevant
under skills or something
if you have key points
inner anchor
or just mention it under a project as one of the things that you did.
tidal moth
yeah pretty much
inner anchor
yea, they aren't things I'd list as "featured content" so to speak on a CV
regal cloak
He said "Can you update your resume to include the relevant points below, which you have provided in your email below?"
inner anchor
unless it's specifically for a role that requires a lot of it, in which case I'd focus on it by trying to tie it into the experience
regal cloak
"Just want to make sure your experience is correctly captured."
I don't even know the position exactly.
Seems to be AR/VR related
You'd think he would tell me the job pos but I guess he sort of has with the questions he asked
inner anchor
just stick it under the associated project 🤷
tidal moth
yea
inner anchor
futz around with the formatting if you need to get it to fit
regal cloak
I just feel like I'd answer these questions in an interview...
Ughh so silly
Like another answer I gave was " I have coded with Java before and personally find it very similar to C# which I've coded in a lot. "
ashen lynx
The purpose is to check if you lied during the interview, and if so, to what extent or at least determine if you have a good memory. @regal cloak
regal cloak
He wants me to add that to my resume? I already have a Java project on my resume
Like Look at my resume.
This makes sense actually as he said he didn't really look at my resume.
Perhaps this means that front page and center these points should be quick to see
ashen lynx
He only wants to check that you at least remember what you have said during an interview.
inner anchor
🤷 i mean, if you have both java and c# experience on your resume, I dunno what more you'd need to do.
tidal moth
@ashen lynx were you the guy's friend? 😄
regal cloak
well thanks for the insight I guess I'll try to re-describe some projects / remove/add some projects to help get those points across some how....
iron cave
Games Workshop worked from a garage too, although that's a bit different. And If I recall it was mostly just two guys in a small shed who ended up building a pretty big business out of it in London and moved to Nottingham.
iron cave
Also, what do you do when you decided to reduce your price on freelancing to try and get the bait, but end up reducing it more to the point where you are literally giving away free work and still no one bites, what do you do? I've never had any complaints about my work either, and I only did one or two odd commissions with acceptable thumbs up.
mystic hull
Freelancing is very competitive in some areas
generally speaking, you dont want to go cheaper the the cheapest good quality competition
In my freelance days, I did my first few gigs for free practically
then started increasing the price gradually as I landed bigger gigs
until I landed a contract job for a multinational company, price never dropped since 😛
it wasnt in game dev though, so im not sure how that transitions 🤷
iron cave
That's the thing. I never did anything for free, the first time I did music at all was during my studies when we made 4 various games for our course.
Then I moved on to practice making music
Then i ended up making a soundtrack list for a friend for a small price.
I tried to advertise my music and myself for freelance, literally £10 per minute since it seems to be the most logical price tag all newbies like me are doing, but so far nothing. I went down to £5, now I posted in I am doing free work. But so far still no fish biting the bait, and I can't tell if my music is so bad it's not even worth the free charge, lol.
mystic hull
I'm no expert in the music field, but I'd assume there isn't that much demand for entry level?
and bro, freelance takes tiiiiiiime to land a gig
if I had to summarize my work in freelance
iron cave
I mean I only started freelance 4 years ago after University.
mystic hull
If you've got 4 years of experience then you're not a newbie 🤷
iron cave
I mean, I am somewhat still a pretty big newbie, because my music doesn't sound anything like what you'd expect from a 4 year experienced composer.
I always thought by 4 years you'd expect to sound a high quality like Hans Zimmerman or Frank Klepacki.
Although I know every artist has their own styles. And I ain't no DeadMau5 or Divici, or however you call him.
My advertisement could just be bad, or people don't need sci-fi/horror/apocalyptic stuff of late.
mystic hull
its a hard field to get into tbh
music is pretty damn saturated as far as I can tell
just keep doing your stuff though
maybe put them all in a place and start selling your pieces or smth 🤷
iron cave
I used to sell them on the UE Marketplace.
But it's been collecting dust, so I removed it, been trying to figure out if I should just move into doing listening music for Spotify and sell my stuff there, but eh.
And you'd think music is one of the most key important requirements for a game for the atmos, since the music helps add emotions to the game.
lilac walrus
your problem isn't lack of demand for music
it's oversaturation of musicians
a studio with 300 people only needs one musician
yet musicians are the most readily available people
iron cave
But I am also talking from the Indie side of things too, you'd expect to get some hits at the very least when you offer free work. Unless someone asks me to do 50 minutes of a track or two, then that I prefer for payment.
lilac walrus
I don't think it makes a difference what scale the operation has
the fact is, you're competing with an enormous amount of people
iron cave
I mean I am in a bit of a short time frame so I don't know what to do, it's becoming more apparent that having learned music feels like a bit of a waste of time and energy.
But it's the only thing I am relatively okay at, and two years tends to go quick.
lilac walrus
I would expect you to need to divide yourself across multiple industries to make music work
there simply aren't enough paying gigs to go around
iron cave
Well i thought of doing normal music for listening, but I can't really sing, nor do I know people who can sing.
mystic hull
Get creative. Tbh, from my experience
thats probably the only thing that really matters in any industry
Specially fields that already require creativity, like music per se 🤷
Find out whats hot, improve on it and try to get creative with it
be it EDM, good old covers or whatever else
Standing out is an easy way to get noticed, not necessarily easy to achieve but its doable with enough work 😛
and it's relatively easy to go viral in the music scene if you've got the talent, one track and the next thing you know you're on the STOT 🤷
though I guess you really need to stand out
iron cave
Eh, I don't think I am that talented.
Besides, if I barely get any comments on my stuff, that usually means I don't have the exact talent yet, or the skills to pay the bills.
inner anchor
@iron cave out of curiosity, how are you advertising your work?
iron cave
Discord, soundcloud, twitter, reddit, word of mouth, through facebook with one of the game-dev focused groups. Linked In. Applying on Artstation as well.
Also through friends to help spread the word. And soon enough a small wix website to make it easier.
inner anchor
And what kind of a portfolio are you using to advertise on these platforms?
mystic hull
Depends on where you work, highly.
On indie it's really up to the agreement and overall arangement of the studio
for AAA you pretty much work in a company
I hear it's really cruel in tripleA studios, but never been there myself so yeah 😄
What I can say is that I've worked for two indies, one of them was hell (VERY abusive, 0 understanding and I quite literally quit out of angst) and the other is currently heaven (Understanding, appreciative and supportive. I wrote some of my best code yet over here) 🤷
Probably really dependent on where exactly you want to work. Not sure if repeating that is very useful, but that's what it'll come down to.
Lastly, I think it's just like any other industry really. Your work conditions will depend on who you work for, rather than on the industry you work in.
You can already pm me since we're in the same server, and sure I'll add ya ^^
iron cave
@inner anchor I only use the Soundcloud since that's where all my music is. Right now I am putting up some music on my Wix Website, and a video of the first "Soon to be" published game with my music in it.
tidal moth
@mystic hull sorry to hear about your bad experience
AAA can be very good, but it depends on the studio
the best studios I've been in (including the one I'm at now) have been somewhere around the AA
enough money and experience to throw at a product for it to get reasonably polished, but enough freedom of control for it to not be oppressive
flat gazelle
I have Never been in an unfriendly AAA studio. I don't love everyone, but the mood is generally good. It's not always easy work, but the people who are attracted to this industry are in general fairly laid back.
I don't get the "CRUEL" comment to be honest.
inner anchor
A number of AAA studios have been getting really bad press. It may not be representative of the industry as a whole, but you'd have to be pretty blind to not have seen it recently...
and "cruel" does describe some of the practices which were publicized
ashen lynx
Cruel as if you actually have to do at least some work instead of doing whatever you want all day or cruel in a way of "deadline is upon us, shackle the artists!" ?
inner anchor
I'd consider any company that uses military terminology to describe people getting burned out to the point of hospitalization and months of recovery leave to be "cruel"
tidal moth
I think the problem is that in bigger AAA studios there is less control over people in positions of power, so the potential for abuse of power is higher
but that's strictly speaking from experience
inner anchor
that really applies to every industry tbh, CEOs of large, publicly traded companies are generally a pretty callous lot when it comes to their rank and file employees.
I have a couple coworkers who "escaped" from fin-tech companies, and they have some pretty bad stories.
tidal moth
you're not wrong, I'm just here thinking that people making games are being exploited over their passion
inner anchor
🤷 i mean, whether you're working for passion, or working for a giant paycheck... People can be coerced in both situations into doing unhealthy amounts of work and sacrificing their health / long term productivity due to poor management practices.
"You're lucky to get paid this much for it" or "You're lucky to have a job in an industry you love", the motivation for encouraging self-destructive behavior is really besides the point.
flat gazelle
And tagging all of AAA with that seems unfair.
inner anchor
no doubt
tidal moth
I think it's just more likely in AAA
again, from what I've seen
I spent a year a company where the director burned me out
inner anchor
calling attention to poor industry practices is pretty much never a bad thing though - if 90% of the companies are fine, but 10% of them abuse their workers while being some of the biggest employers, they should be held accountable.
sore thumbs stick out. and in this case, they should be repeatedly hammered until they get the message.
flat gazelle
I don't think the new guy asking about the mood in the industry is the one that needs to carry that fight.
tidal moth
if it affected more people on a grander scale, it'd be an issue that would be taken care of
but if it's just one module, there's less of a voice
I think we're far past answering that question to be fair
ashen lynx
abuse their workers while being some of the biggest employers, they should be held accountable. It is mostly those, who allow abuse towards themselves are getting abused. If you end up a situation, where you are clinging to a particular job like a lifeline, and ready to to row 24/7 just because of that, it is likely that you made a wrong turn somewhere before.
tidal moth
isn't that just blaming people who are being abused?
inner anchor
^
ashen lynx
It is.
tidal moth
and that is justifiable... how, exactly?
ashen lynx
Should be viewed in a context of how exactly they are abused. Particular case I'm referring to is huge paid/unpaid overtimes.
inner anchor
I think this is what a person that's looking at the industry and trying to decide whether it's something they want to get into:
Every company, and every team is different.
Be aware of what problems there are in the industry, and make sure that you're looking for red flags.
Don't be afraid to turn down a job because something looks sketchy. Decide up-front what you're willing to deal with, and stand your ground - if you're clear up front about this, and that loses you a possible job, then you should look at it as dodging a bullet instead of failing to get a job.
flat gazelle
Yup. Vote with your feet
tidal moth
I agree, but you're gonna have a hard time convincing juniors of that
especially with the high barrier to entry
inner anchor
and the truth is, sometimes voting with your feet means not working in the industry anymore. If enough people do it, they'll eventually have to start treating people like human beings instead of minions
tidal moth
not if there are people standing at the ready to take the jobs of those who leave
it's a good ideal, but more would have to change before we could get to that point
flat gazelle
Anecdotal I know but it worked for me.
inner anchor
actual change may require a) publicity so bad that it materially damages the company and threatens its bottom line b) organizing workers to protest conditions at times when the alternative to giving in to demands is closing shop
tidal moth
actual change requires a societal reform
a group of people revolting against a single institution isn't going to make waves
we've been there before
ashen lynx
The only change that would affect the situation favorably would be reducing pool of available work force for particular branch. Fortunately or unfortunately, most methods of doing so are not humane or legal.
flat gazelle
Are you advocating deathrays again?
flat gazelle
Can't be abused if you are incinerated
inner anchor
UFO obductions of CEO's, replace them with lookalikes who are programmed to put worker health above stupid management.
also politicians. fuck them.
tidal moth
strong unions would be a possibility, but that's probably counter leveraged by the fact that strong unions take considerable time to establish
and there isn't really enough trust to go around
flat gazelle
hides under desk at AAA studio with union and paid ot
honest cipher
we at PUBG are quite well. No crunch and stuff is chill
but its kind of an special case
tidal moth
the goldilocks zone
honest cipher
a company that is beyond loaded with money, and doesnt really have strong deadlines. If something has to get delayed for next patch, then it gets delayed
of course we still try to fix as much as possible for each patch
inner anchor
sounds like a pretty ideal situation for a company to be in
tidal moth
I mean I'm in a similar situation at our company, so I'm not complaining
lilac walrus
I don't get paid overtime, but I have been reimbursed with holiday days, so I'm pretty happy with that
I'd genuinely rather have the time off than the money
tidal moth
it's essentially the same thing
inner anchor
my company has a system for converting raises to extra time off 🤣
lilac walrus
yes, but also no
it's one thing to get an extra day's salary, but it's another to be able to spend an additional week per year with family / friends / whatever
daring parrot
an additional week for a days salary worth of OT? 😮
inner anchor
money comes and goes, but you can't earn more time once you've spent it
lilac walrus
I have four weddings to attend this year, so the extra holiday is valuable far beyond the pay!
tidal moth
@lilac walrus I don't disagree, I'd take TOIL over paid ot any day
lilac walrus
aye
tidal moth
jesus
daring parrot
the fun part is when the company starts to do a little less well and forces people to use up their banked PTO 😃
honest cipher
at pubg, we just have N days of holidays, and can basically use it however the fk we want
which also means that people chain it with official holidays
runic hatch
@tidal moth What company do you work at?
inner anchor
@daring parrot that's called a poor man's severance package
tidal moth
I'd rather not say
runic hatch
Because you don't actually work somewhere or something?
tidal moth
I have nothing to prove
runic hatch
Noticed you talk a lot big game in various channels
daring parrot
@inner anchor it's not always tied to layoffs if that's what you're saying... It can just as well be a company wide shutdown for a week
runic hatch
But don't notice any real experience behind the talk
tidal moth
I mean that's on you
runic hatch
Just saying, if you're trying to make yourself look like a wannabe gamedev, then you're doing a good job
tidal moth
again I have nothing to prove
runic hatch
Just being very observant from all your various chats across discord lately.
tidal moth
cool, it's always great to have a stalker
daring parrot
fun fact: trolls can be employed, I've had many troll-y coworkers in the past
runic hatch
Of course they can. But a lot of his comments...make it sound like he actually has no experience in gamedev
(at an actual company anyway)
west sonnet
Take your beef in dm or walk away.
runic hatch
This is the right channel to discuss this truthfully
Affects someone's career regardless
tidal moth
I think you're taking this way too personal
runic hatch
I'm just trying to help you out, at the very least, that's my perception of you. Take note, or don't. It's up to you.
Take care all.
ashen lynx
Can we continue whine about poor working conditions now ?
west sonnet
Let me get my company issued hammock first 😜
digital gate
Let's all just say where we work so we can have lots of people DM us tryna whine, show off, vent, etc
I'm going back to my desk, they'll whip me if I'm caught on the internet 
tidal moth
...you're not typing this from your desk?
inner anchor
my real name is Andrew Wilson, and I'm the CEO of EA. no stalkers pls.
digital gate
I'm not a stalker, I'm a surprise friend
daring parrot
I work at Partly Atomic 😶
inner anchor
shit, ya got me there @digital gate
tidal moth
senior lead creative vice president? @daring parrot
daring parrot
if you haven't heard of us, you're on the wrong timeline... please correct the temporal anomalies before you leave
flat hierarchy @tidal moth 😉
everyone gets to be everything \o/
fickle hatch
Communism yay
tidal moth
very scaleable, up to a maximum of 2
inner anchor
@tidal moth that's just asking for a revolution
arm wrestle for the means of production
lilac walrus
@honest cipher - that's literally just how holidays work normally
inner anchor
you mean PTO?
honest cipher
@lilac walrus im used to the spanish way where the entire office is off for a couple weeks
tidal moth
that's interesting
lilac walrus
that would be unusual elsewhere, hehe
fixed weeks is terribly inconvenient for people with lives
tidal moth
but let's be fair, that's the minority of game devs, right guys?? RIGHT?
I always feel like I run into a wall made out of Poe's Law at full speed
ashen lynx
I don't have a corporate hammock. Before I knew that someone could procure one, it wasn't a problem. But now I am feeling abused and focusing on thinking how to sign off a hammock for myself instead of actual work. I don't even know which account it should be placed on.
fickle hatch
Someone has to have bought those chairs, bother them
inner anchor
man, I want to trade my standing desk for a hammock now
i mean, what's the point of a laptop if I'm just sitting at my standing desk all day?
west sonnet
I convinced my superiors that we can decrease ac cost by issuing hammocks. Worked like a charm.
daring parrot
heh, slept in a hammock for years, ended up being too cold without a pad on the bottom even in blistering summer months
inner anchor
it took you years to realize that?
cunning sonnet
Does anyone here have experience in dealing with steam? I have a question about the sales events.
nvm found it myself
tropic sonnet
So I know in the programming world, they say once you learn one language well, you can easily move onto another because many of the foundations are the same. Well when it comes to game engines, can the same thing be said? I guess what I am really trying to ask is, If some one who has used one engine their whole life wanted to get a job anywhere, would they find it easier to ease into another engine because of their foundation? Of course this is in theory.
west sonnet
It's true for any software. Not just engines. They all tend to emulate each other or at the very least, use the same conceptual foundation. (Except Zbrush, that edgy bugger).
plucky hatch
I'd work extra if it was friends who were Indies but for some corporate randos no ty
acoustic dome
It takes a bit of time to learn new tools sure, but the pipelines don't usually change too much
sudden island
yeah just did a two day jam and had to pick up unity's ui system/various other components, i did make some mistakes in the way i built some of the systems (dont build the entire game systems when you have a team is one) but you just work through the pain of adapting new tools
and study the documentation like it's the bible
barren temple
Wait.. someone said they have chairs! Damn, that's posh!
verbal wadi
can <@&213101288538374145> please end spam in #looking-for-talent from Gabster and Swagmastre? The 2 positions are showing up again and again as new, but they are the same and I believe people see them for sure, I mean, you don't have to send it 5 times to make a positive attention
steel creek
You don't like the same job posted everyday for a week plus? Weird
Also i find it LOL this channel is the complaint channel for a job posting channel because it has the word career in the title
granite brook
@verbal wadi Thanks for pointing it out (:
pale yacht
Yea they were really annoying
patent mountain
anyone have any multiple entity NDA for discussing game ideas together?
i have a team of 9
and each party has their own ideas and such
echo fox
sounds unusual
hollow geyser
well usually it would just be an NDA for the company or something like that
if it's not a company yeah that's weird
flat gazelle
Sounds like a flock of idea guys with ideas so revolutionary they are afraid they will get stolen 😄
west sonnet
we all know how valuable those are 😛
tidal moth
I feel like if ideas were worth more everyone would be slightly richer
daring parrot
and then ideas would be worth nothing again 😦
idle steeple
WE are looking for level designer with good optimization
west sonnet
Wrong channel. Go to #looking-for-talent
pale yacht
Gabster is back ffs
echo fossil
kinda sad to see people putting "4+ years experience" when they have zero production experience
4 years from home in blender doesnt mean anything and shouldn't be included.
patent mountain
figured it out
docusign
its just a mutliple entity nda
yeah for me, signing an nda to discuss ideas is meh
but
gotta respect others
tidal moth
@echo fossil where have you see that?
patent mountain
my name wouldnt be imagine games if i didnt have a million ideas for games already
echo fossil
@tidal moth In #looking-for-work
Not going to point out specific posts obviously
You see some ridiculous ones like "8 years experience 3D Artist" and their stuff looks like a 2 year graduate.
The first moment you picked up blender/maya/3ds isn't when you start counting the time.. I wish these people knew this.
echo fossil
People who do the hiring want to know your production related experience, so if you worked at a game studio for 2 years as a 3d artist, with a shipped title, then include that time.
flat gazelle
The people who do the hiring sees through it anyway
If you are shit, you are shit. What it says on the CV is irrelevant
echo fossil
If you have to ask why it matters, im not sure i can explain it
hollow geyser
if the job says 5 years of industry experience and your CV doesn’t show 5 years of industry experience, then everyone would ignore it anyway, you’re not fooling anybody
flat gazelle
exactly
I don't care if you picked up blender yesterday. If the content you put out is good, it's good.
patent mountain
now if you happen to have 3 years full time experience sitting at home working on blender making your own stuff
experrience is experience
art is art
if it sucks
it sucks
hollow geyser
Counting the number of years since you learned some tool is kinda silly though unless it’s an entry level resume
patent mountain
i see a lot of haters on the discord though, its more like pointing stuff out at other people, instead of helpign them out 🙃
flat gazelle
There are a lot of insecure people here 😛
echo fossil
I mean you said it yourself, the portfolio speaks for your skill.
Putting 8 years experience isn't helping you, so why put it.
Makes you look immature
flat gazelle
Maybe it matters to them
hollow geyser
I think if it’s an entry level position it could help
hollow geyser
Might depend on a role. But say I’m hiring an entry level programmer and they have 2-3 years of C++ experience I’m more likely to look more closely than someone with little to none
For artists I agree portfolio is the most important
flat gazelle
Yeah, I don't look at the CV unless the reel is up to snuff.
echo fossil
I guess i'm speaking about artists then.
I've seen a remarkable amount of resumes that claim X years experience and their art is awful
hollow geyser
Yeah but that’s more you need talent and a portfolio that shows your best work
echo fossil
Counting the hours beginning from the first moment you picked up the mouse isn't helping you
hollow geyser
For the people with terrible portfolios they gotta fix that first
Before they worry about their CV
flat gazelle
Or other peoples CVs...
echo fossil
Relax Glad
flat gazelle
Oh, don't worry, I'm quite relaxed 😃
echo fossil
No, you're jabbing at me for no reason. Its pathetic
flat gazelle
A bit like you are with newcommers with the wrong numbers on their CV? 😛
honest cipher
@flat gazelle what would you think of a bullshitter that has great skills?
flat gazelle
I hope I would catch it in the interview
echo fossil
Why put 8 years experience 3d artist, you're a hobbyist
The experience implies production experience.
flat gazelle
The skills I can use, the bullshit, not so much
hollow geyser
Because they think (incorrectly) that it makes their resume better than it is
echo fossil
Exactly, so why put it? Glad says it doesnt matter. I think it does
honest cipher
@echo fossil technically i have 13 years of experience in 3d art
doesnt mean im any good whatsoever
echo fossil
Yeah and technically I started 3D Art in 2007 which would give me 12 years experience
But i dont put that shit on my CV
I have around 2 years production experience, i put that down
flat gazelle
Come back when you have a bit more and see if it's still as important what they write.
echo fossil
rofl
If I went around putting 12 years experience on my CV like Glad thinks i should, because i guess it doesnt matter
I'd never get an interview, the years =/= the skill
It's just insanity.
honest cipher
i would say put the 12 years
in a lot of cases, the CVs go through people before stuff like Glad
and those tend to be the ones that care about the stats
echo fossil
I respectfully disagree
I know artists (way better than me) working at big studios who at most have 6 years experience on their CV
Putting 12 years down might get you past HR
But the senior artist or art director is going to ignore it anyways
flat gazelle
I think you should put what you are comfortable with
Personally I don't put down years of experience in any tool.
Nor an estimate of skill level
I have Jobdates, and not much else.
Holy crap I found my very first CV. I did add Basic and intermediate ratings to software xD
I wonder what I used as a measuring stick...
steel creek
Glad-Partikel: If you are shit, you are shit. What it says on the CV is irrelevant mostly agree. What it says on the CV is your attempts at working, attempt at gaining XP. Having that is a good starting point to evaluate if someone is able to at least handle a workload 'out of the gate' rather than just assume they can because skills and load them up only to find out, sure, they are awesome, when the workload takes 4x longer than actually required
a Cv also gives me a chance to catch up with some of the people worked WITH and find out any things I should know about, again, instead of hiring someone, only to discover on the run in production
filters exist for good reason.
mystic hull
if it gives any insight to the argument
50% of the stuff I did isn't on CV, and it doesn't really matter that much
- many of it was illegal modding in my teenage years
and 2. what I've done in production far outweighs the little things I'd done back then
🤷
flat gazelle
@steel creek Yeah, I differentiate production and tool experience. If someone puts a long time of tool/skill mastery it doesn't matter much as the reel will tell me more. Production readiness does require more substantial proof though.
I'm certainly not saying lie, only that you should put down what you are comfortable with. You can be a great artist without any production experience. And the opposite.
That's why I don't care about the numbers.
tidal moth
I think production experience is more about how you fit in a team
flat gazelle
Yep
tidal moth
like do you have the necessary communication skills etc.
flat gazelle
Are you a dick: Y/N
tidal moth
you could be the world's best artist but if you're an ass to your teammates nobody will want to work with you
mystic hull
Are you a dick: Y/N Sometimes? 😄
flat gazelle
Hired
mystic hull
😎
mystic hull
Petition to have that standardized into CV building?
tidal moth
lol
mystic hull
It was a trick question. Only Sith deal in absolutes I actually never thought about interview questions this way 🤔
tidal moth
it might put people on edge in an interview setting
pale yacht
I don't get why the above argument about experience even happened just put your work experience and software experience seperate there you go problem solved
flat gazelle
Yup
patent mountain
its really tough to estimate time something will take, do you guys have any advice for time estimates for clients
i find myself asking for too little time often
plucky hatch
@flat gazelle
Some people can do high quality work, but maybe they aren't really build to be production artists.
Is it a characteristic that you look for when hiring?
Some people can meet the quality bar but be really slow to produce.
Some people can do it, but it's really not their vocation. Not something they really do outside the job.
patent mountain
@daring parrot yeah i found this https://coding.abel.nu/2012/06/programmer-time-translation-table/
daring parrot
Yeah it feels kind of shitty at first, but it's on par once you realize how much you forget to include in your original estimate like QA and redoing experimental work
Lol 30 seconds turning into 1 hour is too real
patent mountain
3 days to 4 weeks seems accurate as well as i just had 4 hours turn into 4 days... but the main issue was related to how long it takes for builds to get onto another computer... trying to figure out a better way in the meantime because that in itself consumed a lot of hours i could have saved
flat gazelle
@plucky hatch that varies with the seniority of the role. It's also hard to judge without working together. But that's what probation periods are for.
shadow kelp
4 hours of productive coding time a day is a decent rule of thumb I use for programmers. Once people start estimated based on that, targets start getting hit reliably in my experience. Any more and suddenly there's all these totally predictable 'unpredictable' things that conspire to make people miss deadlines 😛
lilac walrus
we're doing 3 week sprints, and our estimation is assuming 7 'ideal days' of working time
so that's about the same tbh
mystic hull
Regarding time estimates (for programming), depending on the task and how well you know it
it usually comes down to experience
but when unsure, add 50% to 100% of the time you estimated to the estimation you present to the employer
if it's the first you work on or use a specific tech or even just a new class in any framework, chances are you'll run into issues you couldn't have known would happen 🤷
and generally speaking you get somewhat accurate estimates by planning what you'll do & still almost always something unexpected would happen 😂
shadow kelp
well that's the thing...unexpected things always happen 😉
patent mountain
so
how do you guys feel about Time Banks
I'm thinking of charging the client for a 4 hour time bank at a time for example.. and record myself working
that way he knows what he's paying for, and I dont get frustrated thinking like oh now i promised this much time and im way past it
whats an issue that im not thinking about with this method
i realize now, that there is an actual thing called timebanks that is not at all related to what im talking about (and its like that movie 'In Time' with justin timberlake).. im talking about clients paying for pre-reserved programming time for their projects
west sonnet
How is that any different from hourly
lilac walrus
Yeah, I don't see the difference either?
flat gazelle
Are you referring to the planning method called Time boxing? As for charging, you are describing hourly. How you come up with how many hours to charge is up to you.
plucky hatch
What is a good rate to pay devs?
lilac walrus
how long is a piece of string?
plucky hatch
What's the lowest I can get away with, and not have a chimp
lilac walrus
you're asking unanswerable questions; 'devs' doesn't mean anything since there are numerous different disciplines in development
then there all kinds of other concerns, such as competencies, level of experience, length of project etc
plucky hatch
I wanted an engine programmer, not an artist and to pay an hourly rate working on a game prototype
narrow vigil
Project complexity is going to matter a lot
plucky hatch
That's probably wrong description, it's basically just working on the game mechanics for a simple game
Is 15 usd an hour too low
inner anchor
you say western. what country are you in?
flat gazelle
I'm in Sweden
plucky hatch
That's very western so id expect very high pay standards
I'm in Australia but I've never hired Western before, because of the pay expectations
I'm more looking for Eastern Europe
acoustic zealot
All you need to know is you'll get what you pay for
plucky hatch
I haven't really found that to be the case, I've hired an expert Russian kid before for like 11usd
flat gazelle
I've only worked with one Australian company as a freelancer, but they paid my baserate of 90$/h
But I'm not a programmer
ashen lynx
You can outsource quite decent stuff from ex. USSR countries, but even there mark for engine programmer would be much higher.
lilac walrus
my experience with Eastern European programmers has not been stellar
inner anchor
"expert kid" 🤔
indigo token
Anyone work at Square Enix, or working on FFXIV?
lilac walrus
in here? unlikely
remote saffron
did you check glassdoor?
hazy zealot
@indigo token why do you need someone from Squenix to recommend it?
honest cipher
@indigo token the entire sub lvl 50 range is dogshit
absolute worthless
past that, you start getting actually fun bossfights and dungeons, plus story is slightly less terrible
if you are interested in ff14 i just recomend to take the main story skip (lvl 50 one) + a level boost from the start. Because the sub50 range is just absolute tedium
indigo token
unfortunately i only got the trial version and won't be paying for it anytime soon
but definitely still interested
honest cipher
the trial is garbage
it only goes to lvl 35, which is literally the worst part of the game
level 25 to 40 is an absolute drudge
inner anchor
@indigo token it's worth noting that at any large company (or honestly, any company with more than a few teams), you'll be able to find people that love it and people that hate it. A single person recommending a company doesn't mean much because experiences vary so much between teams and projects
indigo token
That’s very true, thanks for the advice!
tidal moth
are you looking for recommendations on the company or the game though
patent mountain
so... what i mean about timeblocks is: instead of charging for A TASK and say it will take 4 hours, they pay for a time BLOCK of 4 hours, if the task takes 8 hours they will pay for 8 hours
so they will buy 2 blocks of 4 hours...
mystic hull
If you're freelancing, I wouldn't predict solid times like that
unless the client really pushes for it
mystic hull
it's almost always going to take you more time, they have to understand that
and more importantly, you do as well 😛
patent mountain
tahts why I figure the time block thing, because if I'm at hour 4, and im not done, ill be upfront like, this is how far I am (I could even record the work)
mystic hull
sorry, what I mean is I wouldn't put it into hours
but rather into larger scales
weeks, months
depending on the scope
mystic hull
yeah that makes sense
ashen lynx
Only something low scope, like counseling and advisory is practicable to deal with that way.
patent mountain
the other , traditional way, is charging a set time for a task, and yeah I can be like hey this is going to take 7 hours, and I could be spot on or way off... I have around 3 years experience working with ue4 but theres no way I can remember like oh yeah this tasks took me 0.35 minutes last minute... its just guesses from what i remember the complexity of it...
i figure the time block thing, i work while you pay me thing just sounds better for both sides, like it'' be fairer for the client, so i dont have to overcharge hours, and itll be fairer for me so that I get paid for every minute im working
tidal moth
I would give them a rough estimate and then work from there to see how long it would actually take
daring parrot
you're pushing the cost of time estimation to the client in that case 🤷
which seems even less favorable for them, as they now have to estimate hours for an unknown quantity
west sonnet
*and quality
patent mountain
yeah that makes sense Partly
well the quality is not the issue, as they will see it as we progress, but yeah, pushing time estimation onto the client is bad
mystic hull
Pretty sure he meant quality as in portfolio
previous work
Things to give the client an idea of what you can do etc
patent mountain
well the client already wants me
i know what he meant, like im gonna give him a big unknown of everything and just say pay as we go.. yeah it is pretty bad now tha ti think about it
mystic hull
yep, its really tricky tbh
freelancing specially always is, because if you dont estimate correctly one of you is guaranteed to get ran over by the end of it
but if they specifically want you, that means they've got some idea of what they're getting into no?
jsut talk it out, explain that things can, do and will happen
that might delay things further
you generally "think" you can do a specific task in X amount of days/weeks/whatever else
which is the best case scenario
add to it some error margin
so it'd take between 2 to 4 weeks for example
just make it broader, that gives them an idea of what to expect and you space to work out any issues you face
limber socket
Alright guys so i need some advice. I am looking at schools for computer science (or i was at first) but then some also have a game development program (seperate from the computer science one) and I'm not quite sure which i should go (game design was why i started to learn to code in the first place but maybe the computer science major would give me more opportunities?). Any input would be helpful.
tacit siren
hard to find a good game design course, and the degree in one is not really of high value
lilac walrus
I don't think any game design degree is of high value
west sonnet
Indeed. It’s a money sink
iron cave
Don't do it, simples. Just do computer Science, safe yourself from the headache and losses.
limber socket
Okay ty
flint stratus
how can i add a body aura effect to a post processing material?
plucky hatch
Why not try and find a good compsci course with game dev modules? You can specialise later. That's a good compromise and covers all grounds
Or compsci with gamedev
harsh brook
I would argue degrees in general hold no real world value, the only reason people say get a comp sci degree is because of a labor shortage in that area, which yet again does not necessitate a degree. Go to college to find what you want to focus your career on and party. Those are the only reasons I would tell someone to go.
hollow geyser
It’s pretty hard nowadays to get a software dev job at a top company without a Bachelor’s in either CS or something close to that
harsh brook
Its also difficult to get a job at said companies with a degree...
tidal moth
it's difficult regardless of anything, because of supply and demand in the recruitment sector
so. many. people are applying, and even between those qualified there might be competition
I don't know how it is for programmers, but if I was interviewing a designer that had a degree in CS or software development, I'd take into my consideration
shadow kelp
a degree is critical to getting a work visa in many countries, which could be a consideration as well
iron cave
A degree is fair enough, but you'd be better off studying something that has a higher chance of getting you a job. Depending on location.
odd dome
hey all I have a portfolio related question
working on real-time environments and wondering if it is ever okay to use certain assets that I havent 100% created but have rights to?
calling out what exactly in the scene I modeled, what shaders are mine etc
but to fill the composition out with some things, or is it best to make every single thing 100%
nothing that's a hero element, mostly thinking clutter, maybe foliage in certain cases?
I'm focusing on creating atmosphere and mood, level design, and art direction
Most assets I model and texture myself
And again I would make a note with exactly what assets / shaders I am responsible for
karmic kayak
I think pointing out whats your work is okay. Since it's similar to professional or student work where usually multiple people have worked on scenes.
plucky hatch
Hi Is there a book that made the unreal engin program built on it?
mystic hull
what do you mean?
flat gazelle
None of the above was a sentence. It's hard to help you if you don't describe what you need. But seeing as you mention source code, this is most likely not the right channel.
odd dome
Thanks @karmic kayak !
That's what I figured, itd be rare for someone to have single handedly designed and developed in engine an entire environment
I'll be honest, I have no interest in plants or foliage so those are mainly the pieces I'm looking to borrow
Unless I'm working on an exterior
Then I'd of course make foliage part of the hero elements and design them
plucky hatch
I'm looking for source code for the game engine, which structure is
west sonnet
plucky hatch
@hardy moat I'm looking for source code for the game engine, which structure is
@west sonnet I'm looking for source code for the game engine, which structure is
west sonnet
@plucky hatch #ue4-general
hoary thunder
I'm looking for a position as a junior UI/UX artist or Environment Artist (stylized art) ..for 3DCG..
can anyone hook me up..
pay is not that important.. as much is the experience
I'm confident in my skills in Blender and Photoshop
urban stump
sullen horizon
How exactly do i post a job offer? I'm looking for programmers, animators, and modelers and environment design artists.
thanks
lilac walrus
read the pinned message in the channel
urban stump
You're not. The channel is #looking-for-talent
Read the pinned message to see how to post
hallow lagoon
timid mountain
@odd dome as someone who is keen to find talented artists, i dont really care if 100% is original, as long as the mood, atmosphere, lighting, art direction is good (which is what you said), thats all i would care about
arctic sigil
Anyone wanna help me with my Low poly take on procedural planets. Some what like no mans sky or Star citizen
west sonnet
Wrong channel. Go the #looking-for-talent
glossy sorrel
@tidal moth @iron cave id honestly say degrees in the gaming industry are a very very low value compared to the amount of time and money spent on them
you’re way better off building something much better
a portfolio of work
that actually signals familiarity and competence
i would never hire someone with a degree in animation (let’s say) over someone who sends me a range of their ue4 animation work
i see no advantage in choosing the former
unless i’m some status worshipper
😂
and with how competitive the industry is, that’s not a practical option
dusky rock
@glossy sorrel An animator with a degree in animation can pick up and learn unreal engine and make stuff. However the opposite is not true. A person with no background in animation who is self taught in unreal and animation is going to struggle far more, understand far less (like how the human form works) and will take longer.
But animation is pretty specialized.
iron cave
I already know that @glossy sorrel Have known that since I finished the course. It's kind of obvious when you get rejected by almost every job in the job section, lol.
plucky hatch
Wondering if pitching a remake of the NES Lion King game to Disney could work
They released a remake of Lion King recently and there probably will be a movie tie-in game
and I think it could be a remake of the NES game to complement the movie - a remake.
flat gazelle
That's not really how it works..
If disney wants a game made, they tell one of their studios or hire an external partner with a VERY proven track record. They don't sit around hoping to get pitched to.
They have the release schedule of the next 10 - 15 years locked down already
They have armies of people figuring out what products would be best to invest in right now.
I'm not sure telling disney to go for remakes is a completely novel idea 😛
tidal moth
I do have a game design degree (M.Sc.), but I don't think it's contributed much towards me getting hired in the first place. It did open up some things that could pave the way for a GDC talk because of what I wrote in my dissertation, but beyond that it's been largely useless. The few classes that are worthwhile can be taken as electives for a different degree. I will always recommend getting something like a CS or software development degree for a designer because it teaches you how systems can interact, which will form a base for design work.
flint dragon
hi all how to find stable work for 3d modeller
regal swallow
Stable work as in contract work? Small items? Worth looking at the #looking-for-talent channel, and drop some details about yourself in #looking-for-work.
Or create items for marketplace, for selling. Fiverr have also just started a game dev portal too - you might be able to sell your services there, maybe?
flint dragon
thanks
plucky hatch
Degrees are important. What your degree is in is not that important. You would have to be extremely good at what you do to get hired over someone with a degree who is marginally good at the same thing.
flat gazelle
Lol
sure buddy
Hmm... To be fair, none of the people I've hired has a degree. Maybe I've been doing it wrong all this time!
west sonnet
Tsk tsk. Don’t break the illusion of reality Glad 😜
ashen lynx
I think Hivemind already concluded that here degrees give you priority in a modeled case when everything else is equal between candidates. Degrees matter where they are part of certification chain, which hopefully, will remain non-existent in games at least.
tidal moth
I think the method of thinking that something like CS imprints you with is essential, but you could probably arrive at the same mindset from others paths too
I wouldn't even argue that a degree gives you an edge everything else equal, for me it'd be a talking point during the interview and that's that. if I can see the degree reflected in your answers, then that's obviously a plus.
iron cave
Depends on the degree though. Some studies sort'a end up reducing your chances of finding work.
real hinge
Don't forget the importance of a degree for visas
plucky hatch
As the industry matures and the skillset becomes more common I would imagine having a degree would be better than not having one. Since the skillset is still somewhat rare, getting a job today may not require a degree. In the 50s my grandfather became the head civil engineer of a major US city with no engineering degree. I could not see that happening today.
tidal moth
eventually that'll happen, but that's not going to be for at least another 10-20 years when it comes to game design
so giving advice based on that ideal would be a moot point
vapid dirge
Most of the offerings I've seen around me want a degree, not exactly a game center though.
plucky hatch
The video games industry is a bit messy.
It's both beautiful and shitty...
Every game company is different, culture is different, recruiting process is different, etc.
You'll have 5 years of experience, will be unemployed desperately looking for work, meanwhile recruiters will be spamming seniors from other companies that don't even want to do business with them. You'll have time to change careers twice and at one point you might receive a reply from a recruiter asking why your portfolio is down. 🍿
It's a great industry once you are in.
Enjoy it while it lasts.
vapid dirge
It's only my hobby, I just look when my actual job decides to piss me off.
And build my skillsets for my own pleasure. Also a backup plan if my other arm goes or something, great because my 9 year old is getting into it too.
limber heath
Does anyone have any resources they can recommend me for freelance game programming?
I've been wanting to slowly get into it but somewhat know little to nothing in getting started.
digital gate
Building the skills to be able to do the work specifically, or the skills around clients and business running?
limber heath
Er, both. I feel like I'm at an intermediate level for programming in UE4 although there's still a ton to learn. I was also curious as to common sites where 'cheaper' freelancers could get hired, as I don't expect that much for my work as of now
digital gate
Ok drop the whole "cheap" bit
$5/hr people are the people who can copy a tutorial. I'm assuming you can be expected to implement a game mechanic from nothing but a blank project.
limber heath
I did some searching around and saw some UE4 code freelancers and their resumes and it's overwhelming to try and even compare myself to them which is why I added the 'I don't expect too much as of now' part
digital gate
If you can't be expected to do that, don't be a freelancer yet.
limber heath
No, I'm pretty sure I can do that
digital gate
C++?
limber heath
I was speaking as to more complex topics which would take me a fair amount to implement
Yes, I'm fairly experienced with UE4's c++
I was speaking more so to complex AI and networking implementations that I would struggle with
digital gate
Alright. Yeah. So drop the whole "cheap" bit.
limber heath
Will do
digital gate
Okay, so I dunno any good resources. I kinda just. Did freelancing. But I managed it for a few years soz.
limber heath
Hmm, did you use any mediums or websites to put yourself out there?
digital gate
I'd quickly summarize my advice as: show off your work in a plain, impressive way. Find something you've done that you are especially proud of, and figure out how to best demonstrate that. You've got 20s and/or one mouse scroll.
You're going to have no work(freelance) experience, so you'll want to lean heavily on portfolio work. Make that complex AI or multiplayer concept. You don't have to open source it.
Get some money upfront, and read your contracts. Suggest changes if needed.
And #looking-for-work, the unreal forums, upwork (never used it), reaching out to job listings, etc.
limber heath
Gotcha gotcha. I'll start trying these things. Thanks so much for the help!
plucky hatch
I would caution you against using an hourly rate. Price your services based on the job. Estimate how long an expert would take and what they might expect to make and under cut it a bit would be the easiest way if you are not familiar with estimating and bidding.
tidal moth
if you're experienced in UE4 and C++ then I would start by seeing if you can get hired by a company that uses either or both for games
once you have a few years of experience it's much easier to go freelance
digital gate
It'll be almost impossible to estimate how long an experienced professional will take on a task if you're not experienced with estimation.
I actually feel like hourly is a good way to start - you should audit your own hours and pay attention to where you're slow and where you're quick. Practice estimation this way.
The trouble with hourly is that you can overrun client expectation. I'd suggest you ballpark the project but still request hourly. If they insist on a fixed rate, overestimate.
Also you always have an hourly rate. Even during fixed rate projects.
vapid dirge
The number of times I've read horror stories from extremely experienced people on project finish times... Both sides because you never know what you don't know or what might be asked for.
tidal moth
if both you and your client are inexperienced it's not gonna be a good time
plucky hatch
The real trouble with hourly is you cheat yourself, or you become lazy. When I do my estimates (in a different industry) sometimes i lose out and only make about $20 an hour, sometimes i win and make over $100 an hour. Many times I do not get the job because I get underbid. A fixed hourly rate is for people with regular employment, and is typically set low but the difference is made up by the number of hours available and possibly other benefits. Don't be afraid to lose out the first few times, that is the fastest way to learn how to estimate.
plucky hatch
My day job is very low paid and I wouldn't at first until I got very good
flat gazelle
What I meant was, that these days, from what I've heard it's VERY rare to make any significant money from it.
mystic hull
It's gotten a bit oversaturated I believe 🤷
tidal moth
just like the games market itself
karmic kayak
a downside of being mainstream
glossy sorrel
@dusky rock i disagree. much of the curriculum you’d learn in college for animation, for instance, can be learned at home on your own time
there is nothing about the classroom that offers an advantage when you’re learning something such as that
and honestly, learning stuff on your own time is far more advantageous
you figure things out at your own pace
rather than chugging along through a standardized curriculum
the person doing animation in unreal could learn animation on his own beforehand
much like how in your example the guy with a degree in animation could pick up unreal
the only difference between the two is one was in the classroom and the other wasn’t
dreamy sand
I got to love when people think they can get a job paying 45$ an hour, yet in Canada, most are 13-20$ an hour with a college degree and thousands of dollars in certifications
plucky hatch
Jobs in games are between 28k-75k for the most part in Montreal.
If you earn more, you are either super senior, manager, higher ranked in the company or a superstar character artist or programmer.
Different studios, different minimum salary...
I started at 28k where in other studio minimum would have been 45k
dreamy sand
see, 20$/h is 38k
And this is Based off Ontario (GTA and York Region)
plucky hatch
I got senior friends capped at 70k
@glossy sorrel college is by no means the fastest or most complete way to learn marketable job skills. but from a human resources perspective, which is my professional field, hiring is a business decision. with any business decision you evaluate risks versus rewards. when you have a candidate with a completed degree, the risks are drastically reduced and the potential rewards are increased. anyone looking to succeed in a field is going to have to self teach to master the skills. some employers do prefer less education, but only so they can pay you less.
and too much education, migth not hire you lol
😂
dreamy sand
many tend to want certifications as well as school, and a strong portfolio
glossy sorrel
@plucky hatch i do understand what you’re saying. much of the reason employers ask for a degree is because, on average, those with a degree are more competent than those without one
of course, note that i said on average
there are much better ways to signal skills
plucky hatch
that is it, outliers excepted.
dreamy sand
with a school degree, it shows you can learn
glossy sorrel
a strong portfolio shows you can learn as well
that’s not something exclusive to the degree
like, at all
plucky hatch
I worked on 20+ games, different positions and when people ask me for a portfolio, it is really infuriating. I dont have time for this shit.
glossy sorrel
in fact, i’d argue a portfolio signals creativity much more than a degree
plucky hatch
Because guess what, the more skills you stack, the more efforts you need to put in all categories too
glossy sorrel
definitely
plucky hatch
And they all want you to do a LD/3D or else test
Dude, I dont have time for your shit.
the main thing a degree shows is that you showed up for 1400 days in a row, even the bad days, and you completed the goal. a competent employer will put no more weight than that on it, which is why i originally said the type of degree does not matter.
Like in any other business, make friends.
That will get you jobs.
Where I currently work, unrelated to games, there are like 2 guys that are old friends from my boss.
Working for him
They are making good money.
How many times have I seen people in the industry promoting friends over far more competent people?
A lot.
tidal moth
nepotism runs rampant in a lot of industries
plucky hatch
the general order of importance is: likeability, availability, education, experience, talent
tidal moth
not saying it's a good thing but games are hardly special
plucky hatch
If you are the silent type, it might hurt you
If you dont hang out with people after work to take a beer
might hurt you
glossy sorrel
sure, that’s definitely what a degree says. but ultimately, that isn’t what matters. what matters in the end is whether you can create value or not. it’s not about how much time you spent to obtain a specific credential. to me, and i’d wager to many game companies, a stack of ue4 animation work tells much more about a candidate’s ability to create value than “bachelor’s degree in animation”. simply because you have a degree does not mean you can provide value. it simply means you spent time in a standardized classroom.
mystic hull
If you dont have education/experience it will straight up kill your career in most cases
plucky hatch
I got 3 degrees - related to games. 6+ years of XP.
4+ years in design
2+ in QA testing
3+ years in 3D art on the side
And I'm still running after jobs. It's retarded.
mystic hull
No necessarily a degree, but education in general
I guess "experience alternatively"
tidal moth
where are you based @plucky hatch
mystic hull
But likeability is just.. you'll have life teach you the hard way 🤷
glossy sorrel
like, my ideal pitch is finding the email of the person in charge of hiring, telling them how much i love their company, sending them some helpful resources, demonstrating my past work, and telling them i’m willing to work with them for free for a month.
plucky hatch
I found a new career and Im receiving emails ''hey your portfolio is down, can you send it back''. Yeah man you are like 6 months too late.
glossy sorrel
@plucky hatch
mystic hull
And I'm still running after jobs. It's retarded.
this though 😢
I feels you
Though I dont have that much experience 😄
Barely 5 years, 1 being "on record" in games
plucky hatch
@glossy sorrel you can work for me for free for a month, i could use that lol
Im telling you. Im unemployed desperately needing a job. And friend that are seniors with jobs that arent looking for ones get the calls from the same recruiters
glossy sorrel
👀❗️
plucky hatch
it's frustrating
glossy sorrel
lol
tidal moth
again, where are you based?
plucky hatch
Montreal
tidal moth
ah sorry
mystic hull
Well, its kinda hard to blame them tbh. I've talked to one recently and they're just not that good with all the technicals
so its insanely hard for them to judge, is how I felt
Come to think of it I regret not actually explaining things to him now that I talk about it 😂
plucky hatch
Many times Ive seen recruiters come see our portfolios and telling us ''no idea what Im looking at bro, but looks cool''.
tidal moth
I'm curious what's going on on the other side of the pond, it seems the industry is different than in europe?
plucky hatch
if i had to hire programmers, i would have to bring in a programmer to listen to the interviews and tell me who is lying to me. and i studied computer science back in the day
glossy sorrel
hell, CDPR has hired people who made mods for The Witcher 3 simply because they showed an understanding of the game’s engine. that’s really all it took. those candidates filled the “are they able to provide value and do they have the discipline to create” checkmark. easier said than done, of course, but it’s really not that complicated.
the company is on record basically saying they hire people who mod their games
plucky hatch
It's a really cool industry to work in and it pays well. And if you need a few days off, it usually doesn't affect the project too much.
But if you get layed off or are unemployed...
It can take a long time to get a new job.
So have a plan B
glossy sorrel
idk, based off everything i’ve seen and my own evaluation, i’ve decided to skip college entirely to pursue a career in the industry, and i see no reason why it wouldn’t work out if i just keep doing what i’m doing
again, simple, but not easy
plucky hatch
Usually, if you aim at the big stable companies, you are safe
tidal moth
it might work out sure, but if you end up jobless you also don't have baseline to fall back on
plucky hatch
Ubi, EA, etc
college at 18 is a sketchy prospect. i attended 7 different schools before getting my first degree at age 35.
tidal moth
man I thought I was a late bloomer, I finished my masters at 27
mystic hull
@glossy sorrel Gave up on the degree here too, deffo possible, but stupidly hard 😄
plucky hatch
The thing is when you are young, you have different needs and expectations.
Everything looks greener elsewhere
And you might shoot yourself in the foot
tidal moth
most juniors I talk to are just happy to be there
plucky hatch
Things I disliked when I started, now... they don't look so bad.
tidal moth
some of them didn't even negotiate salaries
plucky hatch
if you are young and starting out, just stay open minded and sieze every opportunity that comes by, if they dont work out, no one gets mad if you go a different direction
I've worked as QA tester later since I couldnt find design jobs and I work now as a Debt Collector and it makes me appreciate what I had before
And all the things I hated about the industry don't look so bad afterall.
tidal moth
I really think how well you survive in the industry is based off which studios you get to work for
plucky hatch
There is a game to play internally.
tidal moth
I spent a year just being burnt out by a manager that did backseat design
plucky hatch
lulz
I used to design games for my leads that ended up not doing much. soo..
XD it happens
glossy sorrel
if you’re a teen or are in your really early 20s, i’d recommend not going to school and instead figuring out if you are capable of structuring yourself without school. this age range is the best time in your life to experiment.
plucky hatch
The thing is there are things you need to understand when you work in a studio.
Like how you get promoted.
Or whatever you do to stand out, make sure your boss knows everything you did. Because if only the lead of your team knows about it, that info will never get to your boss and it's like you never did any of those things
Etc
if your that age then do nothing but play with tinder
glossy sorrel
i jumped on the tinder hype yesterday
mystic hull
@glossy sorrel still waiting 😛
glossy sorrel
dipped almost immediately
plucky hatch
Too many people get into College/University programs and into debts for nothing
And you can't really blame them either
It's not like the information that they need is ''there'' in front of them.
It's spread out on the internet
I remember when I got into 3D I was so freaking lost.
I couldn't tell if the tutorials were for ArchViz, films or games
it was chaos
So i went to College to learn 3d modeling for games
that's it
And then I got into programming, same shit
glossy sorrel
i'm in shock people willingly spend tens of thousands of dollars for a degree in writing, english, etc
or liberal arts in general for that matter
unless they want to become teachers or something
tidal moth
too many parents push their kids to do something at Uni
the issue is that not everyone needs to go to uni
plucky hatch
Yeah but maybe they don't have a 100% utilitarian view of the world
college is not for career training
that is a technical college
I'm building a website to clear this problem once and for all.
With a solid free layer of education for Game Designers/Level Designers /Artist/Programmers.
mystic hull
I want to do some studies at some point in my life tbh
Just not now, and not here, y'know
And it's sad that it affects careers so much, given I still have math & physics background
🤷
tidal moth
a lot of design methodology is still very much a tacit discipline
plucky hatch
I would like to do a year course on philosophy
A friend of mine, won't say who or where he works, told me that where he works... all level designers don't even understand level design. Like everyone has a different view of it. And a lot of people just ended up becoming LDs and don't have a really tangible idea of what LD is.
There is that
plucky hatch
I went to the Campus Ubisoft where they used to teach Level Design / 3D modeling / 3D animation and I'd say for the most part their programs were pretty good.
glossy sorrel
👀
plucky hatch
As starting point at least..
But ''design'' is probably the most messy department of them all.
What if the game doesn't have conventional levels
glossy sorrel
if anyone here is interested in level design
there are some good videos i found
from the guy responsible for all the levels in Halo Combat Evolved
campaign and multiplayer
plucky hatch
That's nice
tidal moth
I work as a LD
glossy sorrel
👀
plucky hatch
@tidal moth
By vocation or you ended up doing that?
tidal moth
I started as a hobbyist like 20 years ago, then went through uni as a programmer. but I always wanted to do LD
plucky hatch
Very happy for you that things worked out 😃
plucky hatch
I would like to see more people that do their job by vocation rather than randomly ended up doing X job
Especially in design
@glossy sorrel thx
flat gazelle
"the general order of importance is: likeability, availability, education, experience, talent" This sort of thinking is what forces me to fight with pure HR type who don't understand the industry.
Stop interfering with my candidates! 😄
plucky hatch
lol
tidal moth
I'll have to look at what the guy is doing
plucky hatch
I just came to the acceptance that every studio is completely different haha and have different recruiting processes
can only rebel against it for so long, dont worry, its not my order of importance 😜
flat gazelle
It's worked well so far
The recruiters usually get it and move out of the way sooner or later.
tidal moth
chances are he's not wrong, but that he's still gonna come off as idiosyncratic, as many designers do
again, because there is no design formalization
plucky hatch
Let's say you want to be a Level Designer but happen to have a background also in either 3D or Programming.
Turns out some people will see it as a big plus and some people will see it as a big negative point.
Roll the dice
I would think design is 100% talent, to execute the design i go back to the order of importance
patent mountain
can you guys help with opinions: so i want to work with an artist, and he wants to as well, but ive been working on something for almost 2 years now and the work he is going to do isn't that much, probably like less than 50 assets I guess in total... I CAN NOT afford to pay him at this point but I do want him to be properly compensated for working for free at this point and receive future payment, how should I go about it, should I offer him a percentage of profit everytime he adds a new asset, or should it be a fixed payment, or a mix of both?
patent mountain
great idea lol
plucky hatch
XD
It's definitely not an easy question/answer. But Im sure you both can find a proper deal together and work it out.
i have a problem with the phrase "percentage of profit." i have not looked into business law in countries outside the US but, inside US you dont want profits and the amount of work he is doing should not equate to a percentage of your project. at the same time, as your success increases, you want his to increase as well.
flat gazelle
I'd start by telling him the same as you wrote here. As long as he hasn't already been promised something else when he started working.
plucky hatch
What I would recommend is for you both to come up with different packages
patent mountain
thank you guys
yeah the percentage of profits thing is tricky now that you mention it
plucky hatch
my final answer is probably a deferred payment approach. find a number that you both agree the payment should be, find a percentage of that payment that is guarantied and agree to pay the rest as the project can afford it if that day ever comes.
that way you both know what you are facing from the start.
maybe an agreement that if you make it rich you will hire him for the next project on better terms
patent mountain
what do you mean IF