(agreed that Europe or at least my experience of Europe is easy mode)
#career-chat
dense plank
kindred mason
I'll be real here
99% of people here don't really care about the politics
They are just wanting to "express themselves" and "stay relevant"
Of course, technically every single one of us SHOULD be caring a bit more... and it affects us one way or another.... but once again... 95% of politics do not affect the majority of citizens at all or greatly
(as in, we wouldn't be able to tell the difference one way or another)
Politics should be the very last things you consider
It has absolutely almost basically nothing to do with how you do things as a game developer
dense plank
I dunno, even as a white Scottish dude who is probably the least likely to be on the receiving end of anti-immigrant sentiment, I'd be a bit skeptical about living in the US in the current climate.
It's not worth the resulting hassle if they decide to do something idiotic like revoke all H1-B visas or something like that
kindred mason
Other than some obvious random reps trying to ban lootboxes and such π
But, I mean, there's always going to be random people trying to get more power by appealing to more people
dense plank
or rather... the benefits of moving from Canada don't outweigh the potential hassle for me personally
vernal kraken
not the other way around?
kindred mason
But if you're NOT starting your own business here, and just working at a studio... you have absolutely nothing to be concerned about
vernal kraken
like in the benefits of moving to the US don't outweigh ...
kindred mason
Even if big pres decided to enact something into law about deporting every single immigrant / non-US citizen
That would never pass
dense heath
whats about losing your job for no reason now without a warning period?
kindred mason
?
dense plank
there are some benefits to moving from Canada to the US, but for me personally I don't think the scale of the benefits are worth the potential downsides right now
dense heath
no
kindred mason
yes...
But, you can apply for unemployment π
Not sure what other countries offer
You could try to sue obviously as well, that happens a lot
vernal kraken
lots of european countries have a mandatory notice period @kindred mason
kindred mason
good for them
inner anchor
@kindred mason π€ kinda like how putting refugees seeking asylum into prison camps and separating children from their parents for absolutely no reason would never happen? Anything can happen if you get enough people riled up.
dense heath
firing me takes at least 2month currently
supple timber
is it worth getting into the game dev industry?
dense plank
I think it is
kindred mason
@inner anchor you can also start the zombie apocalypse but meh
dense plank
Maybe it depends on your background, but as someone from a working class background, the games industry has given me a quality of life that I'm very happy with
kindred mason
@supple timber for sure. depends on a lot of factors though. How old are you, what's your current job field and why do you want to get into game dev?
dense plank
if I had my life over again, I'd do it all again
true fog
π
supple timber
18/none/once i really liked it , but now i dont feel like doing anything
vernal kraken
@kindred mason it varies
kindred mason
Also, if you're really concerned about losing your job...that sort of speaks volumes on you personally
Personally, that would be the last thing on my mind. I would just be working as hard as possible.
inner anchor
i think that the most common answer to that question I've seen is "No it doesn't make economical or social sense because there's all sorts of industry shittiness / doesn't pay as well as other stuff, but I also don't care because I get to make games"
dense plank
I don't think it speaks volumes. It depends on where you are in your career, and how much of a financial cushion you have
kindred mason
If I get fired, I'd want to know why of course and if there was something that I could have done to prevent it.
But again... that shit rarely happens
vernal kraken
with hole studios being shuttered around earnings season it has absolutely nothing to do with me
and everything with the company
kindred mason
If you can somehow get yourself fired on the spot.... you did something really freaking stupid
dense plank
If I lost my job tomorrow, it wouldn't be that much of a big deal because as a game programmer with my level of experience, it'd be trivially easy to find another job
supple timber
wdym by financial cushion ? @dense plank
kindred mason
@dense plank aye pretty much, it's true. Everyone's case is different
dense plank
savings, etc. If you're in the situation where if your next paycheque doesn't come in you can't make rent, then losing your job is a very different experience
vernal kraken
yeah
kindred mason
But the average person...
dense plank
also if you're earlier on in your career it'll take slightly longer to find that next job
kindred mason
@supple timber Go to college if you can
inner anchor
hah yea average person has no savings and lives paycheck to paycheck... @kindred mason
kindred mason
@supple timber what part of the game dev industry do you like or see yourself doing?
kindred mason
@inner anchor well, I have a lot to say on that matter...
dense plank
whereas (at least for programmers), once you get five or six years experience behind you, finding a new job is trivially easy, there are companies all over the world knocking down your door trying to recruit you
kindred mason
I just don't want to just blatantly call people stupid though
dense plank
both in and out of games
kindred mason
Especially in game dev nowadays.
Maybe 10 years ago, when it rarely happened
But shoot... it happens so much. You need to be financially smart nowadays
supple timber
i just dont feel like game dev is worth it
vernal kraken
^
kindred mason
If you start game dev with that attitude, you're fucked
kindred mason
If you wake up everyday excited to work in game dev...it's good π
kindred mason
If you wake up everyday dreading to go into work for game dev... that's not a life I would personally want to live
But some people do...they need the money they say
And there's a crapton of money in gamedev
kindred mason
And as such, lots of companies hiring
supple timber
with every job
kindred mason
Lots of games put out
supple timber
i just dont feel up to it
kindred mason
I agree
supple timber
maybe its just because i am studying alot
kindred mason
it can be any job
But it's even more so with gamedev personally
You aren't just doing some work and then handing it off
supple timber
and it could just have messed up my mind
kindred mason
You are doing some work and it could potentially impact millions of people
And/or people can SEE your work
kindred mason
Or, you can do some dumb crap and have a crapton of angry gamers
true fog
hey does someone wanna talk about savefiles with me?
dense heath
if you can explain what they have to do with career maybe
true fog
my career depends on it π
flat gazelle
Oh man, if I could have saved at a couple of points in my career
kindred mason
@true fog go to #blueprint or #cpp
vernal kraken
@true fog wrong channel. also somebody in #ue4-general is talking to you about it
true fog
thx
supple timber
@kindred mason i just like feel too tired to do it
i once had the motivation to work on games
kindred mason
k
So, gamedev isn't for you
I won't say it's always rainbows and unicorns
But you definitely need quite a bit of motivation
Being tired...well, maybe get more sleep
flat gazelle
I mean, did you see the april fools gag RB6 did. Literally rainbows and unicorns
kindred mason
heh
flat gazelle
π
supple timber
could it just be that i am studying alot?
kindred mason
don't know. You should aim to get 7-9 hours of sleep everyday
I study a lot while working on games
west sonnet
Learning is 80% of the fun though
west sonnet
Thatβs not bad
dense plank
It depends on what field within games you want to go into... for programming you'd easily be able keep your options open to go into other sectors. If when you graduate you decide games is for you, then you can go for it, otherwise there are other options
inner anchor
it's probably not a good measure of your motivation if you're thinking "How motivated am I to code / draw after 10-12 hours of studying and classes" and using that to judge what you want to do
honest cipher
@kindred mason games is not really that much cash
the cash is in tech in general. A top tier programmer can go work in any country for a high salary
dense plank
It depends on what you define as "much cash" imho
inner anchor
@supple timber do you think you'd be more motivated to work on stuff after, for example, you've been on vacation for a few weeks and don't have other looming priorities?
dense plank
Personally I'd argue that programming in games can be very financially rewarding.
Sure, it's not the maximum value that you can earn with programming skills, but it's still very rewarding
inner anchor
it's not maximizing financial potential, but you're probably getting other kinds of satisfaction out of it. Money is never everything
supple timber
like if i could get 8,000$/year i would be super happy
inner anchor
otherwise everyone would want to be working for a fintech company making $250k a year
dense plank
plus working in games as a programmer doesn't rule out working outside of the games industry later (quite the opposite in fact, a lot of other industries like to hire game programmers because we're amongst the subset of programmers that know how to write fast code in c++)
mystic hull
8k a year?
inner anchor
guess that depends on your country
dense plank
it's not unheard of for game programmers to move into areas like low-latency trading for example
inner anchor
but that's < 3 months rent for me lol
honest cipher
@dense plank Engine devs are probably the best C++ programmers in the world
mystic hull
the heck
west sonnet
Add another 0
mystic hull
^
inner anchor
yea you can easily make 80k doing pretty much any kinda programming. if you're any good..
mystic hull
You can do that much in a month or two
supple timber
even if i earned 5K/year i would still be happy
west sonnet
I think welfare gives you more in the US
honest cipher
in europe, junior game programmer tends to hover around 35-40k euros a year
on the important countries
in something like spain is 20k
supple timber
yeah 5000 Euros/year would be good
vernal kraken
5k euro / year is below existential minimum in germany
mystic hull
Bruh, I live in a 3rd world country atm
honest cipher
5k euro year is what you get in spain if you already wasted your unemployment mone
mystic hull
and I wouldnt be able to survive 2-3 months with that much
honest cipher
its th emoney the gov gives you to not starve
kindred mason
Everyone's "target salary" is dependent on a lot of factors
And some folks are just fine with how much they make
mystic hull
I'm baffled though, I hope im not intruding but where do you live? o_o
west sonnet
Maybe in Greece itβs livable π
kindred mason
I know people who can live off $300/USD a month
mystic hull
damn
kindred mason
(not living in the USA though)
supple timber
if i earned 10K Euros/year i would be Extremely happy
mystic hull
take me there π
kindred mason
Right, so, it depends on a lot of factors
supple timber
like i would have hit the jackpot
kindred mason
Cost of Living is the primary one
kindred mason
Let's be real here
If you all owned your own business, and were making a game. You would have to think about Contractor/Employee costs.
supple timber
i could live comfortably on 600β¬/month
supple timber
all on myself
inner anchor
including rent? food? equipment / programs that you probably need to buy in order to do your job?
decent internet, clothes?
kindred mason
I know a lot of folks who can do 300-500euros /mo though
So yeah, I guess it's a thing
depends on where you live
inner anchor
what country you in?
supple timber
π¬π·
inner anchor
ah
ashen lynx
@supple timber When you are supposed to enter Uni ? This or next year ?
supple timber
next
ashen lynx
Shoot for maritime academy instead.
supple timber
?
ashen lynx
In current realities in Greece that would be a pretty good pick for you.
ashen lynx
It is not always about things you like, but in 10 years you will be ahead of your fellow IT colleagues by an order of magnitude and will afford yourself to flip the career in any possible way, including starting your own gamedev business without undue strain.
supple timber
i would really prefer to go game dev @ashen lynx
ashen lynx
``` It is not uncommon for young men not to know what they want and to be driven by impulses. Particular advice was given applicable to your current situation with awareness of current state of affairs in Greece and was aimed at reducing chances of sending your life down the drain. To take such advice into consideration or not, is entirely up to you.
serene maple
Hey guys, this is a long shot but im reaching out to see if anyone that has extensive knowledge with cpp in and out of unreal would be kind and willing to offer me some help to take me under their wing for a little while I get the hang of the language? Thanks guys!
mystic hull
I'd volunteer but I haven't used UE in years. If you decide to go Unity for any reason feel free to drop me a message c:
As for C++ if you have previous programming/CS knowledge, there's "A Tour in C++ - 2nd Edition" by Bjarne Stroustrup, one of my personal favorites and sums up things quite nicely
None of these are UE4 specific, though.
digital gate
Which is for the best if you're learning
honest cipher
@mystic hull old list
tho yeah, the bjarne strousoup noob book is awesome
probably the best
also his hardcore bible book is also great, but that for intermediate-advanced level
teal tapir
I bought the C++ Primer and its great only just started it
serene maple
Does it matter if the book is a little bit outdated?
serene maple
I just bought the c++ primer book also
honest cipher
@serene maple depends of the outdatedness. C++11 features are amazing
but you can use other books for the modern stuff once you learn basics
serene maple
Yeah i ended up buying it, it used C++11
kindred mason
If you are coming from another language, this path may be good for you (it was helpful for me)
-Accelerated C++
-Effective C++
-More Effective C++
-Effective Modern C++
I also tried out Programming and Practices in C++ and...well...it's good, there's no doubt. But it's 100% a university text book
And so, it assumes heavily (even mentions it in intro) that you have an instructor.
Now, you can still use it and go through it, there are plenty of resources to DL on his website. But I found it terribly dry and long-winded.
honest cipher
then there is The C++ Programming language (bjarne)
the true bible
tho its unbeliebably dense
its more like rf material or for people that already know programming well
spice dagger
The C++ Programming Language is a must have i reckon.
serene maple
Is The C++ Programming Language book good for beginners?
spice dagger
This book assumes that its readers are programmers. If you ask "Whats a for-loop?" or "Whats a compiler?" then this book is not (yet) for you; instead, I recommend my Programming:Principles and Practice Using C++ to get started with programming and C++.
An excerpt from the 3rd page in π
It assumes prior knowledge.
serene maple
How about C++ Primer?
plucky hatch
I probably wouldn't consider "C++" to be good for beginners. Even if some programmers might have started with C++ first, I think that as a first programming language it would be quite overwhelming and confusing. Maybe C# with Unity would be a more accessible starting point.
Would you recommend C++ in UE4 for beginners?
serene maple
I am making good progress in C++ so I want to continue with c++ just looking for a book to help me.
Is it worth spending an extra 30$ for Programming: Principles and Practice Using C++?
honest cipher
@plucky hatch i learned the basics of C++ in a week after only really knowing the absolute most basics of python (like just branching/loops and little else)
its not that bad
the issue is that going to an advanced level is real shit on c++
plucky hatch
Coming from C#, C++ = Eye Rolling
I can't stand it.
But I tip my hat to all those who are using it
honest cipher
its the only language you can use if you want the code to run directly on the cpu
with no middle layers or VM like C# does
brisk crypt
@plucky hatch it's a matter of perspective. As someone who learned programming with Pascal, then C and C++ long before C++11 was introduced, I too would have said that C++ should not be one of the first choices to learn programming.
with C++11/14/17 now, there are definitive reasons to start with C++. cppcon trove on youtube has a lot on this, but the video of Kate Gregory "Stop Teaching C" from 2015 sums it up pretty good.
modern c++ is nothing like the "old" and very C-like c++ (because most users have been previous C-developers)
honest cipher
C++20 is a important step
we are getting non-retarded templates
and modules
with templates being "fixed", that part will be much easier to use
brisk crypt
yes, but as it takes a lot of time for new standards to be widely used, so I do not have much hope for it to be commonly used until a few years later
honest cipher
well, this days some of this stuff gets implemented very quick
so the top 3 compilers will have it in no time (and i think clang has prototype version already)
brisk crypt
yeah, it gets implemented fast, but until you can convince your colleagues to update the toolchain to a more modern compiler... might take some time π
honest cipher
at the very least, the Concepts feature means that template errors on the stl are no more
now when you get an error is a non-retarded message
but.. they just keep adding shit on top
its absurd
so many things and features
brisk crypt
yeah, and it gets more and more important to stay up to date to know what you can use how and when in your next projects :-)
sp back to topic @serene maple , I would recommend online resources first, especially https://github.com/isocpp/CppCoreGuidelines, https://www.learncpp.com/, https://isocpp.org/get-started, https://cppinsights.io/ and https://www.youtube.com/user/CppCon/playlists until you are proficient enough to know most of the basic stuff and then you will find good book resources naturally as you know what to look for.
serene maple
Looking at all of that now, Thank you. @brisk crypt
night dock
Have been doing a game design uni degree for about 3 months now, and I've kind of come to the conclusion, for all the years I've been making games, I feel like if I am ever to have a career in game design, experience plus proven projects/game releases are going to be a lot more valuable then any degree. I'm thinking about continuing my game design dreams by continuing to work in indie teams, and changing my degree to more of a backup/with valuable knowledge should I launch my own games, thinking business degree instead, what is everyones thoughts on degree vs experience in the games industry? always focusing on studios using unreal however.
plucky hatch
Design is a lot less tangible than coding or 3D art. That alone might make things feel very random in terms of getting hired for your skills.
Make friends with people in the industry at big studios that you like. Directors, leads, recruiters. People who can get your a job.
night dock
So do you agree that experience in the industry is more important than any degree?
plucky hatch
Networking > Else
People hire friends, promote friends.
They'll look for skills if necessary.
Degrees, nobody really care.
Portfolio is more valuable.
night dock
great information π
so back to the original question, it's probably a smarter idea to study a "backup" degree not relying on game design, while continuing to build networks and participate in indie projects, then to put everything into a games related degree for years without a strong backup plan if it doesn't work out in the industry?
kindred mason
@night dock Just have some guts
Guts will get you through anything in life
A bit of luck doesn't hurt either
But, I went from being a Marine of 12 years, straight into a 4-year Game Development degree (Savannah College of Art and Design) and being able to make a living pretty damn quickly after graduation. (Technically, I started a little bit before graduation)
night dock
Also just left a military background, kinda why trying to figure out my next step. Unsure whether a game development degree is worth it, or if it's better just to get there on experience is pretty much my conundrum at the moment
brisk crypt
@night dock a "backup" degree can't hurt. especially if you are not entirely sure about the direction.
And depending on the degree you are pursuing, it might even be more valuable to get a non-gaming degree and learn the gaming-specific stuff in your free time and through networking. Not all degrees are the same, even if they have the same name, so it is hard to give general advice, especially as everyones situation and goals are different
night dock
nah fair enough, understand completely
still had some useful information so far π
It's interesting to hear about how "experience" vs "degree" is valued in the gaming industry
brisk crypt
game development is more of an art than other industries and relies heavily on personal experience, maybe that is one of the reasons
you cannot teach enough content in 3.5-5 years of classes to cover the basics, the advanced stuff and the game specific areas without cutting corners... so it is necessary to go the extra mile and gain first hand experience by doing games yourself
night dock
reality is the game industry is changing drastically due to tools like unreal
it's becoming more and more accessible and over saturated
makes it an interesting concept for relevance of any current degree
in my opinion
brisk crypt
I have worked for almost six years in academia now and students can grasp the fundamentals of game development quickly if they have a solid foundation in software development and human-machine interaction... but it takes time for them to learn what is fun, what works and what doesn't work. Especially if you are targeting more than one platform. And the few years they are here is not enough to teach everything
And thanks to tools like Unreal and Unity you do not have to jump into the gaming industry directly. You can take the roundabout way by using these tools for visualizations, simulations or training environments in other industries
mystic hull
I'd disgree regarding the oversaturation. From recent experience, access to good devs is still very limited and companies are VERY picky regarding who they hire.
India & China probably just invaded the freelance market so it looks oversaturated for the mobile with Unity etc, but it really isn't. Purely from my experience, ofcourse.
plucky hatch
Most people are probably going to work in the video games industry and never work on the games of their dream. People might even work on games genres they dislike, involuntarily.
I would argue that working outside the video games industry, getting a high-income job that only requires you to work 40 hours a week or less that wouldn't be creatively draining could be a better use of your time, if you are the type of person who wouldn't mind making games during your free time.
harsh brook
College is a nice way to experiment with other fields too, at my uni we had small teams that made games over the course of a year and two semesters, I started as a programmer moved into 3d art then settled on VFX in my last year where I have been pushing my skills since cause its been my favorite. Think at the very least you should make a few games before deciding what role you want to play
tidal moth
it's nice to experiment in college or uni, but realistically you should start experimenting on your own much sooner than that
uni will never teach you experience beyond mastering a few tools and perhaps a few rules of thumb
so having the experience beforehand and knowing what works in what contexts helps so much more
I don't recommend getting any game related degree in uni, because in the end it's pretty much wasted. I would instead seek out something like a programming degree (software development/CS/software engineering) and go from there
one because it gives you great fallback in case you cannot get into the industry
and two in case you actually do get in, having the technical understanding of those aspects will lead you to understand core concepts about game development much faster than without.
and just to clarify, get the programming degree regardless of what you want to do. if it's game or level design, you're already miles ahead. if it's programming. you're in the right spot if you pick up rendering subjects on the side. if it's 3D art you can start programming macros and scripts as well as do 3D work leading to some interesting tech art roles
harsh brook
programming degree = good everything else = bad is some pretty commonplace toxic advice, your degree signifies an area of interest your work signifies your skills there are plenty of people with programming degrees that don't have jobs and plenty of math majors who are programmers
tidal moth
feel free to do a math major as well. I think anything that is remotely technical is going to thrust you in the same direction though. I don't get what is "toxic" about it. if you want to maximize your chances of getting hired then you need to set yourself apart from the rest. programming skills is a tried and true way of doing so. and even in the case you end up doing something else, you will always be able to draw on your programming skills in whatever you do
harsh brook
programming skills is not the same as a programming degree anyone can learn to program
tidal moth
sure but teaching yourself programming versus actually studying it where you are in an environment that encourages learning are two different things
and since CVs are largely meritocratic, showing you have a programming degree is going to help more than not having one
harsh brook
showing a good body of work is always the most important thing even in programming
CS courses in general tend to be outdated for games ime
tidal moth
sure, but if you are straight outta school you are looking at graduate roles anyway, which help out when you have the degree.
harsh brook
unless you're in a masters program that is
tidal moth
I don't think they're outdated, they still use the same principles
it's not about the language you're learning, it's about how to set up a structural model for you to use
harsh brook
you still don't need a degree to learn those things and at least in the games industry and the mobile application space the degree might get you an interview but your work and knowledge of the software that is being used is what gets you the job
tidal moth
getting the interview and acing it is the most important part. especially for people who are juniors or graduates the expectancy of skill transfer is not as important as willingness to learn
harsh brook
the biggest thing is interest though thats the only way to get good at anything especially when it changes as rapidly as programming
get into programming because you want to be a programmer not for a better cv basically
tidal moth
... most things inside the industry don't change rapidly
tidal moth
are all programmers render programmers? and even so, have they really?
my point is that your day to day code is going to be the same now that it was roughly 5 years ago, barring perhaps working a little bit with testing on new hardware
harsh brook
compared to other industries I would say yes this changes faster
lilac walrus
in my time in the industry, entire disciplines that didn't even exist before have become widespread
I've seen three different paradigms apply to gameplay code
tidal moth
go on
lilac walrus
the first game engines I worked with were procedural - no concept of objects
this was not as long ago as you might think
most recently games have been using OOP paradigms
this is started to fade out, and things like ECS are being adopted
we're yet to see what'll take hold, but I have no doubt that OOP is on it's way out
tidal moth
maybe we're going to see significant changes in the future, but for the past many years I've been in the industry I've seen very few changes that I would call paradigm changing
lilac walrus
by trade, I'm a technical designer - that job position didn't exist when I entered the industry, heh
harsh brook
its inevitable now with microsoft and sonys partnership
tidal moth
ECS is a design pattern on top of OOP essentially
lilac walrus
you may want to take a look at the Q3A source code as a decent available example of what some games still looked like internally a little over 15 years ago
by contrast, other industries are still often using software and programming languages that were superceded decades ago
tidal moth
I agree, but they're using those because they have dependencies they cannot overcome otherwise
harsh brook
thats some bs pay to rewrite the things I hate that argument
lilac walrus
not necessarily, it's often because their projects span quite a few years and they can't risk venturing into unexplored territory
military aerospace projects can last for decades
tidal moth
^
are you going to risk bringing down an airplane because you want to reinvent the wheel in another language?
harsh brook
If someone could get it working in fortran then I'm sure someone can figure it out in a modern language is all I'm saying
Perl is the biggest one
tidal moth
regardless, we're veering off topic here. to get back to the main topic, C++/C# are still the main players on the board, and will likely remain so for at least another 5-10 years
harsh brook
Rust man
flat gazelle
The direct to vhs sequel to Man of steel?
lilac walrus
π
tidal moth
π
and with that said, getting in on the notion that you have enough of an architectural grip of OOP and understand basic tenets of programming, you'll be taught most else in a junior role
or graduate role
odd skiff
Im here learning UE4 to start my own career
rapid mulch
I was looking at the job board and alot of the post say to dm if interested. Seems that you can't click on the little profile icon at the bottom, so does that mean if you message the unrealbot it passes the message to the human that made the post?
rapid mulch
ok thanks
torpid whale
you can also right click on their name and do it that way
odd mulch
shadow kelp
OOP design starts to become a problem once you heavily optimise your code. It's definitely over-used among less experienced programmers.
rapid mulch
right clicking their name doesn't seem to do anything, that's why I was confused on how to message them.
sudden island
@lilac walrus ECS lets you control Data locality much more right
sudden island
Like instead of a million pointers going to different places you can organise it so that the CPU cache isnβt constantly having missed
Arenβt you a programmer?
sudden island
Whatβs that mean?
lilac walrus
I design and implement gameplay systems
- do all sorts of other technically orientated editor side stuff
I also do things like translate loose GD concepts into tangible concepts for implementation
shadow kelp
@sudden island yeah that's the main benefit, ECS keeps your data aligned nicely, very cache efficient
if you're using containers of OO inherited types, you're chasing pointers all over the place.
kindred mason
Heh
This is the best video I've seen on intro to ECS
And yeah, I know I know... but they did implement it in their engine.
@final solstice That's not a portfolio?
It's a resume π
final solstice
thats what I mean π
kindred mason
Actually
Not that great of one either
Is this something you came up with on your own?
kindred mason
π You wanted feedback right?
It is
That's all you'll get from me. The most honest and straight up constructive feedback on this planet
I don't understand the purpose of the document you posted still
If it's a portfolio. It's not really one. If it's a resume. It's not that great of one either.
shadow kelp
well, first up, you need to tailor it for whatever position you're applying for. Producer, Gameplay Programmer, Level Designer....pick one
kindred mason
It seems like something you threw together and a mash-up, but it's hard to understand the purpose of it
You don't state any prior work experience
You have all these links in the project section like someone's really going to be bothered to click on them
(and most of these are printed once received to HR)
So, good luck on someone clicking a link on paper
If you want to display your work properly. Create a website. Link that
shadow kelp
I click through links on CVs
kindred mason
on paper?
You are an alien
I want some of that tech please
Not everyone will though, let's be honest here
shadow kelp
we have these new fangled electronic systems so we can read documents without printing them π
kindred mason
This isn't some one in a million people are going to do it kinda thing
He wants to get into somewhere nice I am sure
He's put the effort into making something to send to some studio
Yeah, but most studios, any decent size anyway...HR will print them out, put them out on piles.
At the very least the worst case should be thought
(that no one is going to click the links, especially if printed)
Of course, EU and USA resumes are a tad different, so maybe it would work over there
This is my meh resume
shadow kelp
well, this big studio uses a system for managing the recruitment pipeline, so I always view CVs electronically initially.
kindred mason
@shadow kelp Okay, so initially all CVs are seen electronically, that makes sense. What happens next?
shadow kelp
I'll print the CV out before I go to a meeting room for a phone interview usually, so I can scribble notes on it....but by that point I've viewed the links so they aren't relevant anymore, whether they are to a personal site or a steam page is neither here nor there
I would like the links to each project, steam page if possible.
Case in point, I'm looking at your CV and I want to see what this title you worked on in 2017 looks like
I search 'Motor Boar games' to find the studio and google thinks I've made a type and shows me motor boat games
kindred mason
I love me some Motor Boats
shadow kelp
I would rather have a link to click on personally
kindred mason
I've never once had anyone care about clicking any links though in the past
You may be the exception
This has been my experience over the years:
People ask for resume
I send them resume
They come back to me saying: "Wow you have an amazing resume"
Offer: (Accept or Decline)
Most studios will not click on any links, they will just glance at the summaries and timelines
Most studios do not have the time to click on every link
Even with full dedicated HR staff
This is something I've been told personally from random studios over the years
lilac walrus
we use Softgarden, it includes the CV and a covering letter + links
kindred mason
Website, sure.
lilac walrus
we do follow the links
kindred mason
So you would personally click each and every single link on a resume?
shadow kelp
yup
lilac walrus
most people don't include more than one anyway
lilac walrus
if there is more than one, it's something like a youtube reel vs artstation portfolio etc
kindred mason
One link to a website (central to the whole portfolio)
Which reminds me, I need to add a link to my resume π
I usually just send it along with the resume
flat gazelle
I click the links
kindred mason
I personally think it's a bit selfish of someone to just add a crapton of links
flat gazelle
They all show up in smartrecruiter
kindred mason
Instead it would be nice to have just one link (to a central portfolio)
Maybe this is a Euro thing
west sonnet
Why do people use rating system for their technical proficiency? What does 3 stars mean compared to every other potential employee? π
flat gazelle
Yeah I wonder the same
flat gazelle
Who sets the bar?
flat gazelle
Lol
west sonnet
Doesnβt tell me anything as an hypothetical recruiter
flat gazelle
Wait, that's real?
west sonnet
Sure. Just donβt put it in your cv or portfolio π
kindred mason
Oh no
flat gazelle
I am level 3 multi-player. Fight me
kindred mason
This is on my website π
flat gazelle
So that's why you don't link it. Now it makes sense
kindred mason
Dunno, has always worked out for me
flat gazelle
:)
west sonnet
Iβm a level 6 cookie fighter. Come at me bro
kindred mason
I know that the "skills" section is always subjective anyway
flat gazelle
Hmm out of how many? I am no amateur lin cookie fighting myself
kindred mason
Some people spend 2 hours on a tutorial for a "skill" and add it to their resumes
But let's be honest
The resume is just to barely step through a door
It's just to GET an interview
west sonnet
I keep seeing a rating system in kidβs cv. Itβs baffling.
kindred mason
The interview is all that really matters
kindred mason
And replace it...
With just words?
Just simply type out his skills sets
What about his "Personal Skills"
flat gazelle
People management seems like an odd one, if it was two group projects in school.
kindred mason
Is "marketing, publishing, steamworks" personal skills?
I think he should drop "tech/personal skills" and just have a section on "Skills"
Listing out whatever, no summaries
Anyone reading it should have an understanding what those skills are
is BSc how you all distinguish your 4-year degrees?
pliant ridge
Honestly listing skills saves more space than the visualization. I've seen the hiring end and whenever I see the stars or something, I think they're an amateur because no one should reasonably put that on their CV/website and expect it to be meaningful.
kindred mason
Meaningful or not, I can tell you that it has had no relevance in me ever obtaining a job that I wanted π
(on website)
Of course, they can just skip it and move on to whatever they want
pliant ridge
I'mma just leave this here because I know it's kinda long:
Your skills should come through your work experience and project descriptions - not pitching the company or the project, but what you did there. Something that actually reflects what you specifically did. Also, you have to respect a manager's time, and things like visualizations and a 2+ page resume are nearly always excessive and annoying. Both are indicative of very, very junior experience, because they're the ones who use it the most to overcompensate, and these things waste their time to skim or even skip over. I've heard them liken it to filler. Only fairly high-level professionals can do 2+ pages and not be considered pretentious or unaware of how they come off.
harsh brook
Don't annoy your recruiter and only mention things you are proud of are my two rules of thumb.
south swift
is the game dev industry very hard to get into? seems like it requires a lot of up front experience, because its a rather challenging type of development
its likely not viable to bring on people who need a lot of on the job training
as opposed to like web dev which really doesnt take too much time to learn the tools
id love to transition to game dev, but i wonder if its just too late for me lol. seems almost impossible to learn this stuff on my own like i did with web dev and stuff.
flat gazelle
It can be. Most jobs in games will require on the job training. Some more than others. I work with a quite complex proprietary engine and therefore I expect the ramp on time for a new employee to be about 6 months.
south swift
true. an in house engine or something that people cant reasonably learn outside of the company makes sense for a ramp up period.
even at my current company, which just does electronic discovery C# code, our onboarding period is about that long - 6 months to a year.
i think for me the hardest thing about learning game coding is just figuring out what to work on in my free time.
with web dev its so easy - you can knock out prototypes in hours or days
game dev, while learning, takes months it seems
kindred mason
@south swift re: "if it's too late"
It's never too late man
I got into GameDev when I was 31
shadow kelp
I moved into game dev age 34. Did some not very interesting browser game stuff for first couple of years, worked my butt off outside work on my C++ and game dev related stuff, now I'm a lead on AAA. It's do-able, gotta take your opportunities and put in the work
programming is one field that does transfer well into game. The daily struggles of a programmer are the same in games as they are out.....it's mostly specific techniques/algorithms you need to get up to speed on., and a focus on performance over accuracy.
mystic hull
You guys give me hope π
dense plank
Yeah I know people who've moved into gamedev in their thirties and made a success of it. If you want to do it, go for it
When it comes to areas of learning that are game-specific, it's a case of finding a way of learning that works for you. For me (and obviously this was a long time ago when there were fewer options), I found a good book was worth thousands of online tutorials
mystic hull
May we have it's name, good sire?
dense plank
I don't mean a single book, I just meant in general. Personally for my learning style, I found that books were more effective than the resources I could find online at the time.
But that can vary from person to person, other people might learn better by taking a course or following YouTube tutorials, etc
harsh brook
cookbooks are my favorite for learning new techniques/languages
tidal moth
honestly it's a lot of happenstance. yeah it can be hard to get into. but if you have passion and adaptability and a way to acquire some talent it's definitely possible to not only get in but also to rise in ranks pretty fast.
I feel like there's a better way of quoting stuff in discord
pallid mantle
@south swift Nah itβs never too late to get into Game Dev! I changed career paths after a year at University doing History in like 2013-2014) while my life was falling apart lol. Dropped out, went back to College did Games Design (which is when I started my current/new career path in 2014) then got into one of the top Universities in the world for Games. Best decision I ever made! 4 years later and Iβve had interest from companies such as Ubisoft and Rockstar (no word of a lie) and I havenβt even finished my degree yet. Things are going really well at the moment. Sure thereβs things that need doing and itβs not as if Iβm being offered jobs left right and centre, but Iβm getting pretty positive feedback which is a good sign (for now)
Ultimately, it all comes down to what you want and how much effort youβre going to need to put in.
mystic kiln
Any advice on dealing with feedback from clients etc. who basically don't know what they are talking about. for instance "why don't you just use the arrow keys to move around, that makes way more sense," "that baby (in the game), looks too much like something from a video game, can you fix that." .... i am not sure what to say to these people sometimes without strangling them! These are usually marketing, training, or fundraising people. they also say things like, "we want realism in this VR project" then in the next sentence, "we want 'the camera' to go into the lightbulb, then you open your eyes and are flying over the sea" how can i explain these things dont make any sense.
to be fair this baby is reallllllly creepy!
digital gate
They're probably voicing their distaste in how uncanny valley it is
Also the controls thing is why rebindable keys are a thing. I guess don't tell them that or they might want you to put the art style on a setting too
Are they giving you lots of push back when you explain why things don't work like that?
mystic kiln
yeah, the other problem is the feedback passes through about 3 people before it gets to me lol
digital gate
Might be worth reminding them that your opinion is valid - you knew enough about games for them to pay you.
But I don't talk to them so I've no idea how they'll react
If it's bothering you, that situation might be a win-win
mystic kiln
yeah. people dont like to be told theyre wrong. i guess this is a general problem for anyone doing any kind of design for other people.
digital gate
Well not that they're wrong.
"While I understand the keys literally have arrows on them, in games wasd or ijkl is more common because it keeps your hands comfortably separated"
Vs
"No, we don't do that in games"
"Your desired art style seems to clash with your desired narrative/sequence. It'll pull people out of it, which is more important?"
And if you get push back you can say
"Ultimately it's your call but in my experience this tends to work better"
Unless you wanna die on the hill and then you can be more adamant
And you might want to suggest a sync meeting where everyone in that chain of feedback is talking to each other rather than playing telephone
acoustic anvil
For the keys, just make both sets work
As for client/user feedback, I guess you need to get familiar with the XY problem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem :)
digital gate
Also it might be that they'll never compromise. I explained to a client once, for 4 hours (politely, addressing their points as they came up) why an idea they had would kill their company. Guy still wanted to do it even after seeing the numbers.
mystic kiln
people are strange for sure
remote saffron
maybe he wanted to kill that company
mystic hull
I painfully know how that feels @_@
tidal moth
do they pay you? if so, accept the task
or don't, and look elsewhere for what you want to do
mystic kiln
@tidal moth that's not really a solution is it. "just do it or quit" these situations have nuance
fallow sable
inner anchor
@fallow sable
tropic sonnet
Hey everyone, I'm pretty new, so I hope this question isn't in the wrong place. If so forgive me.
My question is a bit of a weird one. I am noticing that unreal is so grand that you can hire entire teams of people just do focus on small aspects of the engine(FX, materials/shaders, HUD, cinematics, level design, gameplay, etc. . My questions is more or less trying to understand if a new person should focus on those single aspects and grind it out and be a valuable asset to any project with that specific skillset, or do most professionals have to go and learn everything, be decent at everything but then move into specialization?
Or am I just not seeing the big picture and have it all wrong in the first place? This engine seems so overwhelming, its hard to feel like anything is accomplished since there is so much to learn.
mystic hull
Learn a bit of everything, specialize in something
Generally speaking, many of those areas overlap
a network engineer can very easily write gameplay logic, or participate in building the game engine, the physics of the engine etc etc
but then he writes less network code, thus you assign just that to him and you get more efficiency & productivity out of that individual, and they get experience in that specific field too ofcourse
Although, broadly speaking most specialized people will have at least some previous experience π€
So if you're pretty new, I'd suggest you try a bit of everything and see what tickles your inner genius, stick with it for as long as you can & eventually specialize in it.
^ my 2 cents
It's worth mentioning that working on tripleA titles isn't as easy as one would think, though.
tropic sonnet
Thanks for the advice. You mentioned a couple of scenarios where elements overlap. Is it possible to have some elements that just don't go well together? (I'm guessing here) Like a gameplay programmer who is also amazing at FX? Or a UI programmer who is also proficient at lighting? Or something like that? Off the top of your head, can you think of the skillsets that really go well together? Just so I know when I come across these paths, Ill have an idea of the things that may be even more enjoyable with combined skills.
mystic hull
Well, generally speaking the farther away the fields are the harder it is to find them to be overlapping
for example, 3d modelling & network engineering aren't exactly 2 fields that can easily overlap
neither of the skillsets can translate into the other
In many areas the lines are blurry though, a technical artist (the people who write shaders and whatnot) is what you get when you marry a graphics designer to a graphics engineer (more or less?)
They're essentially programmers, who know graphics. But being programmers doesn't mean they can write game engines for example. I'm finding it very challenging to answer the question tbh π
You'd just have to make sense out of it really. Think of it this way though, what overlaps is all the specialties that come from the same studying field
for instance, someone who's studied CS should be able to do network, physics sims, game engines and whatever else applies math/physics & computational theories
specialty is more of an experience thing, a network engineer who's been working on that for 10 years will surely have more tricks and experience in networking than a physics sim developer who's been working for the same amount of time. However, that doesn't mean they won't reach the same result in the end. It'll just take more time for the latter than it will for the former, to write a production game server. Take into consideration the research the latter will have to do etc, the former would just have that experience somewhere in the back of his mind.
if that makes sense π€
I appologize for my attempts to answer not being very well structured, kinda late over here π
It's also worth mentioning that it's all VERY relative to the task, titles are very misleading in this business xD
Disclaimer: take anything I say about AAA businesses with a grain of salt, my experience is solely indie, B or A studio depending on who you ask.
Another thing that's worth mentioning, unless you work in triple A, you'll likely be doing many of these things anyway, just due to your staff not being big enough
tropic sonnet
This is perfect. My goal is to gain perspective. And this exactly what you are giving me. I am someone on the outside, and people on the outside don't know what questions to ask. Your feedback gives me an idea of what questions to ask. A way to look at moving forward. So for that I am thankful
tropic sonnet
Interesting you ask, Long ago I was an artist, I did comics, media FX, 2d FX and dabbled in cascade. Now I am more into software. Im on the C++ path and whatnot.
So the trick for me is to find what is fun. I thought about looking into tech art, but here is the problem. I am not too familiar with maya/max/blender/etc. I used them LONG ago and cant say I had that much fun.
I guess I was curious if I can find the next best thing to different skill sets other than tech artist.
mystic hull
Why not try visual effects? π€
tropic sonnet
I toyed with the idea of maybe sticking with C++ (something in unreal) and maybe Cascade FX, or materials or something. I just dont know, well because I dont know the engine well enough yet. Which is where this conversation pretty much started.
mystic hull
It's not very hard to learn the engine if you've got a foundation on how the concepts work etc
tropic sonnet
I like the FX path, but I felt that that alone wont be as fun. I do like the idea of making my own game, or programming more of something I want to make.
mystic hull
Yeah, sounds like indie stuff π
tropic sonnet
perfect.
I guess I need to better understand what I need to know if I go that route then
mystic hull
It's probably the most financially challenging
but you get to do everything you want, the way you want
tropic sonnet
Do you think being good at FX and various parts of programming is a fair combo?
mystic hull
My personal opinion yeah, if you like both
It really depends on what you want to do though
tropic sonnet
Yeah thats the tricky part. I'm still learning, so honestly I don't know what I can do, or when I can mix them. I guess Ill eventually get there.
harsh brook
usually you need some basic programming skills for high level fx
tropic sonnet
Oh really?
harsh brook
I use vex pretty heavily in houdini too but I'm a control freak
tropic sonnet
Oh cool. Is the material skillset in there somewhere?
harsh brook
for fx ya you need to know how to make materials
tropic sonnet
Sorry for the Newb question, whats vex? I do like Houdini. Havent used it in years, Im assuming there is alot of good cross over with that?
harsh brook
vex is a C derivative in houdini
it also mimics hlsl though so you can usually test your mesh effects
alot of effects artists get away without coding as much though I just am control freaky, it took me a year of grinding but I start at treyarch in a few days to give you an idea of learning time
tropic sonnet
Oh nice. Honestly everything Houdini + Unreal is something I know nothing about. I used Houdini long ago, I know it allows some python elements, and node based and its strength is fx and procedural workflows. But other than that, I have no idea what to even do with it. Is there a site/url/reference that could help me see if that is a path I might want to go down?
harsh brook
its mainly good for fx and proceduralism sidefx.com is good for talks alot of the recent gdc sidefx talks were good and had some interesting techniques
tropic sonnet
thanks
harsh brook
for sure rtvfx also has a website if you want to just see real time effects
flat gazelle
@tropic sonnet vfx coders are goddamn impossible to find. Become a good one and I'll hire you myself.
They need to be a very specific blend. Top notch in rendercoding and building optimized systems and coming up with new approaches. So far so good. The problem is that they also need to be crazy good at tool, editor and ux building. They exist but they are very rare indeed.
broken maple
@flat gazelle I can do some VFX, depending on what you need (and considering this is for UE4) I might be able to help. You know, stuff like GPU particles, dynamic water, adaptive fire.
Iβve done it all just about
ashen lynx
dynamic water This is just one click away from being hired.
I would gladly challenge Glad on a hiring arena in a glorious battle for a candidate with a research or two into water rendering.
karmic kayak
depends on what the dynamic water actually is tho ?π€
flat gazelle
Edit: removed as it's not for unreal
ashen lynx
Trolling left aside, if you can make at least make basic cuda SPH solver, and render its results into something meaningful, while also covering it with UI, that is easy to grasp for an artist, the job will find you.
flat gazelle
Niko, I don't work in unreal so I won't post an ad here. If you are serious and have the chops to push Aaa vfx through the next Gen, ping me and I'll point you in the right direction.
cold goblet
Hey guys. I hope you're okay i have a question about my career. I'm studying in filmschool. I'm taking directing, cinema, art and story classes. And also i'm writer since 2014 i'm writing reviews, news for games. I want to work on game industry. I don't know coding or animation or anythingelse. I know art, games, films, music that's all. How can i get job i'm always spamming little studios for a job is this normal? (I get 1 job with this way i'm doing trailer for them rightnow)
polar spruce
@cold goblet
i'm writing reviews, news for games
influencer
art and story classes
concept-artist/illustrator
I'm taking directing, cinema,
cinematic/trailer artist
solid kelp
This is the last day were i can decide for continuing with Web or Start with game dev.
The problem is that, Web dev offers me 36.000 Salary yearly, instead of 24.000 of the game dev work that a company offered me.
I know that money aren't the all thing in a JOB, but what guys would you do?
Creating game is my passion, i love to do that, but salaries seems really "poor" compared to the Web (Expecially with Angular and PHP or GO)
I'm asking here because trust me i'm basically in Panic
And both companies are waiting my answer.
How do you guys "decide" the best option? what you all do? Compare the jobs with Pros and cons?
plucky hatch
Higher salary
+1
And 36 what
U wont like ur job
No matter what u do
Bc u do the stuff for someone else
And he gets to decide how it should work and look like not you
And u can always make a game in ur free time
polar whale
@solid kelp hard to decide. Are you single? Do you have student loans? Can you live comfortably with 24K?
solid kelp
@lilac walrus EUR, Malta
@polar whale I have a girlfriend, no i don't have student loans, "you can live" i will have 600/700 euros monthly that i can touch how i want
in the other work i can have 1.3k motnhly to do what i want
polar whale
In that case you have a lot more freedom to pursue your passion :)
wide jetty
Hey itβs been awhile in UE4 how would I change the size of an object
dense isle
@solid kelp Malta ? this game-dev offer is from 4A games ?
tidal moth
@solid kelp what position/role are you applying for
or sorry, did apply for
what role is the job role
solid kelp
@dense isle No 4A Games seems not even answering, not to me but to all my team
And there are people who worked for Invader Studios and capcom
@tidal moth
Gameplay programmer
dense isle
I've worked for 4A Malta , for 3 years
solid kelp
Still is what i want to do, logic of the game, and everything that goes around that
dense isle
so, I was just asking
solid kelp
@dense isle Was it a nice experienced? because people judge them a lot here
No joking...
dense isle
I left, so π A lot of people left during last 2 years , especially after release of Exodus
Atmosphere isn't good
and pay is low
at least it was for me
solid kelp
You're the 6th or even 7th guy that told me this
dense isle
but I was with original team from Ukraine
solid kelp
Oh ok, so you got transfered basically
dense isle
yep
solid kelp
No the company is the 2nd biggest company here in Malta
I think you know them
The problem is that, i made a lot of experience alone with Unreal
And 24k here in malta are not a huge salary you know!
dense isle
I know, yes
solid kelp
I feel like risky you know, like going there work for 24k and then? where should i go to let my salary get higher?
dense isle
if you want gamedev, you should be willing to leave Malta
a lot of 4A guys joined Ubi
me too
solid kelp
Ubi won't take me without experience as Game dev... That's creepy but true...
I mean
I'm working alone in my projects
dense isle
that is what some guys got from working at 4A
solid kelp
I'm in fucking love with UE4 ofc with C++ but they will break my ass
dense isle
shipped title and experience
dense isle
no, I'm in Canada
solid kelp
Fuck that. i was just talking for Canada right now with my GF ahahahah
dense isle
Canada is good, but after Malta it will be a little bit colder π
dense plank
The winters are cold, but the summers are really good in some parts of Canada
dense plank
though bear in mind this is coming from a Scot, any summer is better than a Scottish summer haha π
Summer in Toronto is pretty close to what I've experienced of Orlando in October
dense isle
Malta is a tourist country, 20 square km. Of course there are a lot of drunks
solid kelp
I mean, to reach the big company i need to work somewhere else before and that's true
@dense isle I was working and living in front of 4A basically, Plaza shopping center... Trust me... sometimes i wanted to kill everyone during the night
tidal moth
@dense isle where are you working now?
dense isle
Ubi Quebec
dense isle
@solid kelp I lived in Sliema and I was there when they had elections. That was madness
solid kelp
AHAHAHAH MAN WE HAD IT YESTERDAY. Oh boy...
I feel you!
next to this, i would accept immediately to the other company, the game developer one, but still guys it's hard
tidal moth
do you have any info on the gamedev company?
like glassdoor or anything like that?
any second hand reviews?
brisk crypt
@solid kelp if you can live on 24k and be ok with it, why not... but I wouldn't recommend it for an extended period of time. For gameplay logic you can always work as a "normal" software developer in a non-game related company and develop games for fun in your free time until you have either enough skills to look for a better job or go indie yourself
solid kelp
@brisk crypt This is what i'm doing, developing gambling systems here in malta
And in free time casting some blueprints and some c++ xD
brisk crypt
but working in game development just for the "fun" of it with below average salary will kill your motivation pretty fast
solid kelp
@tidal moth While ago, reviews from glassdoor were shit
now they got a lot of money
and they are back in the "market"
tidal moth
some sort of f2p?
solid kelp
No no they made Flashback for switch with another company
And now they are making
XIII for PC ps4 xone and switch
So they have projects, they have games were i can work on
Both unity and ue4
But still as @brisk crypt said, the salary... fuck it.
brisk crypt
you cannot live on fun alone
solid kelp
My friends say that i don't have to think about salary since im still 22
But for me it's a different thing
brisk crypt
if they cannot pay a decent salary, their business model is shit and they can only make money by paying their employees less
solid kelp
And that's probably true
brisk crypt
go with normal software development first, get more experience in your free time and learn as much as you can in your day to day job about software development in "normal" teams and environments outside of game dev, so you can at least have an educated comparison once you decide to compare later on in case you want to switch
tidal moth
I mean it's usual that game dev pays people less
not saying it's acceptable, but it's not uncommon
not saying it's acceptable, but it's not uncommon
brisk crypt
even if they pay less, it should not be that low, even for entry level game programmers
tidal moth
just out of curiousity @brisk crypt do you work in the games industry?
brisk crypt
they can get away with it because new graduates want to follow their passion first before thinking about their worth
worked on contract as freelancer, main job is in education teaching about engines/game dev/UX
and the amount of ppl who regret taking the low salary offers early on just to get into the games industry is not small
tidal moth
I don't think you can just generalize it like that
especially across different roles in a game dev environment
brisk crypt
ofc I overgeneralized to make a point :> it depends on the circumstances of the individual, but especially for developers the difference between the salaries is sometimes astonishing
tidal moth
I also don't know how much local purchasing power you have for instance in Malta with that amount of money
brisk crypt
a lot of products in Malta are imported afaik and there are not that many different companies to choose from for essentials, so I guess it is not as cheap as on the mainland. but that is only a guess as it has been a few years since I last visited
dense isle
Malta is very pricey
everything is imported
even electricity
I belive groceries were 2x than in Rome
in 2017
solid kelp
Yeah
True
Everything cost a lot
@brisk crypt but a lot of companies requres shipped title
How do you deal with that
lilac walrus
it's common
tidal moth
you could look for junior roles elsewhere potentially
lilac walrus
but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to have it, they just ask for it
tidal moth
I don't think I have ever seen junior roles requiring shipped titles
lilac walrus
a 'shipped title' doesn't have to be an AAA blockbuster
it basically just means a 'finished project'
which could be any old indie rubbish, or even a decent sized mod
tidal moth
I am understood with that, but still
lilac walrus
the point is they want people who can finish projects
tidal moth
again, I've never heard of this, unless by that you mean showing e.g. finished levels in a portfolio
or a showreel
flat gazelle
Yeah, that I can buy. I don't want to hire someone who can't finish what's started
tidal moth
but I think it's reaching to call that equal to shipping a commercial game product
tidal moth
in either case I think making that distinction is pretty relevant in order to give realistic goals for junior roles
tidal moth
in either case I think making that distinction is pretty relevant in order to give realistic goals for junior roles
flat gazelle
Personally, when I look for juniors I have no strict experience asks.
I'd much rather have a sociable newb who's eager to learn and adapt than a bitter Muppet who got burned on a project and now is set in his ways.
fiery pivot
What's the best way I can learn about unreal engine? How did you guys start? Just watching tons of YouTube videos?
I've been messing around with it but I want to learn faster lol
ember dove
How do i post in looking for talent ?
west sonnet
Pinned message
fiery pivot
πͺ I just want to make a cool game already I hate being a noob
tidal moth
there's no shortcut but maybe you have one aspect you want to focus on?
fiery pivot
There's so much to learn it's overwhelming, what did you start learning first?
mystic hull
That's not how it works though, as sad as it may be
You have to put in tons of hours into studying & learning your desired field, if you want to start as an indie I wouldn't recommend something as complex as UE4
At least, not unless you really know what you're doing or what you want to do
If you're a complete noob, pick either being the graphics guy or the programming guy, and move from there. Find what you like & where you shine and learn that specific topic & how its done in your preferred engine
From there on you can expand, if you aim at being an indie, you can usually have a bit of everything, but for more formal triple A jobs, you'll need to specialize in one field and stick to it
^ my hopefully helpful 2 cents
west sonnet
Iβd argue UE4 is a good place to start. Considering itβs designed to be user friendly for multiply disciplines. Not for learning fundamentals of programming though. That should always be studied outside of any engine first
mystic hull
Yeah that's more or less what I wanted to say, thanks π
fiery pivot
I appreciate the advice! It is helpful! I'm slightly experienced and I've made mods before and used blender but I'm completely new to writing it from scratch and replication for online and stuff, I would like to do it myself and I think I could but idk if that's realistic time wise
How long have you guys used ue for?
mystic hull
I've used UE4 for about 6 months total, so not really very experienced with it
Generally speaking though, you're jumping a step there, online & multiplayer is the last thing you'll want to mess with
fiery pivot
Yeah true
west sonnet
5 years and I still never explored network programming π¬
mystic hull
I'm not one to talk about graphics, I wouldn't be able to draw a cat. For programming though, you probably want to familiarize yourself with common paradigms (say OOP for most engines nowadays), and just get your hands dirty with a book or two before you smack your head against the engine π
Hah, I must be rather lucky π About done writing a game server o_o
west sonnet
Also not a programmer π
mystic hull
Makes sense π€£
fiery pivot
Damn, Im generally good at picking up on languages good enough to heavily edit them but i have never taken the time to go too into depth cause I've switched through a lot of different things
mystic hull
The best advice I can personally give is to read books
I've watched countless youtube tutorials, and compared to actually reading books & practicing them
it is VERY inefficient with both time & effort
fiery pivot
Very true, I will definitely
Wow
I never would've thought of that, I have watched tons too lol
mystic hull
Yeah, I really wish someone'd told me that a few years ago
I just watch youtube vids for engine stuff nowadays if I'm missing on a certain part, but usually prefer docs & books
fiery pivot
Are you working on something with a large team or just a few people?
mystic hull
I think it's just by design, youtube creators usually teach you how to do this very very specific effect, but books are more broad & general and are designed to teach
Just a few people over here, but we're working on a big game
fiery pivot
Good point
mystic hull
Big in terms of how few we are, not in comparison to other big games π
fiery pivot
Me and my friend are going to make a large scale rpg, he knows a lot more about c++ than I do though k just know basics
mystic hull
Take it from a friend, don't work on a large scale RPG
even if its just single player
fiery pivot
π nooooo
mystic hull
It's literally the most frustrating thing you can start with. Unless its for fun, i'd strongly recommend against it π€·
fiery pivot
Once that frame work is down wouldn't it be a bit easier?
west sonnet
Donβt do
fiery pivot
It's like 70% cause we love RPGs lol
mystic hull
Well yeah, we're working on an MMO over here (thank god its not RPG), and the amount of work that goes into optimizing & just plain refactoring and redesigning is astonishing
fiery pivot
What's the best type of game to start in your opinion?
mystic hull
I'd say FPS, off the top of my head
generic, lots of resources, goes over physics and general gameplay code
covers a lota ground
west sonnet
Pong/breakout and I say it without sarcasm
mystic hull
My first game was tic tac toe π
finite mulch
You're not going to finish your first few games anyways, so pick stuff that will make you learn the most
tidal moth
space invaders, pong, tic tac toe, 4 in a row etc.
it'll show you some things to do those games, it won't show you everything about game development
fiery pivot
Yeah true
tidal moth
which is why I asked about whether there are aspects you want to focus on
because for stuff like level design any of those games aren't really going to help you
tidal moth
π
karmic kayak
You're not going to finish your first few games anyways wat...frenchy.. thats not true at all hehe
if you scope them properly you will finish them tbh
dusk raptor
but will your first game be good ? Eeeeh prolly not π
finite mulch
@karmic kayak hehe
cedar grail
yo guys i need some programmers for gaming sour studios in unreal engine
if u are intrested pls private message me on discord
west sonnet
#looking-for-talent read the pinned message
thin escarp
Hey there commune!
New here
I'm a Designer and a CAS modeller working in India
I want to learn some specific tools which can help me create a configurator as shown in the video above. I have never tried unreal but I'm fully dedicated to nearby
Any help/tutorial/process will be super appreciated
To learn*
I'm much aware with vray, VRed and other visualisation tools
sand lagoon
I just graduated High School and I have worked with Photoshop, Illustrator, Bryce, and a few other 3D art programs. I am currently exploring Unreal Engine as well. I love working with 3D objects, photo manipulation, and creating other designs. I plan on going into the digital art field, but I was curious to see if anyone here has any suggestions as to what job related requirements i should pursue, or any other things i should keep in mind?
Or do i lack the experience to even try getting a job?
coral nacelle
US high school?
so like, your 18?
In the UK, we have college after school where we do only 3 subjects of interest
and then can go on for a degree
anyways. Dont dont need a degree, but many ask for it. Most important thing, is to have a great portfolio
lots of skills in there
show off you and all you can do
sand lagoon
Yes, US high school. Some of the jobs I've looked at require an associates degree, but quite a few of them do not. Thank you for the advice, I really appreciate it!
west sonnet
Degree is only good for migration to other countries for work. Otherwise, if youβre going for art, donβt waste your money on a degree
coral nacelle
Doing some small freelance jobs online is good for making a name for yourself, but also getting good experience.
I'm doing a degree....
RIP
But its not a waste from my point of view
its helped to open lots of doors. But its purely down to each person and their goals.
west sonnet
It really is a waste in the US π
coral nacelle
well I wont comment on that. Here in the UK its kinda needed to have a degree for any form of higher job.
tidal moth
depends on the kind of degree
it's true that most studios do take people in from 3D and programming degrees
sand lagoon
Most of my friends who are into art are going to college. I traveled the country and bit to look at colleges, and the majority of art majors told me not to follow in their footsteps. The cost is just too great I think.
tidal moth
to be honest if you have a kickass portfolio and are self taught you can still get hired pretty easily within the games industry
especially as an artist
but I suppose people with degrees are becoming the norm
sand lagoon
The problem is that I am relatively new to this. I took art classes throughout my school years, but only tried digital art in my senior year. My first project was a gif animation, and I challenged myself by drawing out a figure walking. That made me want to switch careers.
tidal moth
to... animation?
coral nacelle
what do you have an interest in, or are having fun doing?
sand lagoon
Just a short summary... I took Digital Art 1, where I was able to explore Photoshop (Image editing & animation), Illustrator (Line work), and Bryce (3D art). I really enjoyed all of it. I would be happy just working on any projects in the digital art field.
tidal moth
in your spare time, what do you do
coral nacelle
Would you be willing to let me put you on a contact list I have, and if anything comes up with some freelance work, I can point them to you? Might help you find something fun to do?
I mean, you'd have to sell yourself to whoever wants your work. But I know a few people who might need some digital art for some projects.
If not, the Unreal forums have tones of people asking for talent
you can find some great work on there
and there are many other sites as well for all that.
sand lagoon
Yes! I would really appreciate that. Thank you so much!
iron cave
Anything else is better then doing a Games Course for degree, least I got something so I can work in another country. But as some say Freelance stuff works out well, managed to get my ball rolling now thanks to some commissions.
tidal moth
tbh I recommend just making stuff in your spare time and showing off the stuff you made
most entry level positions require you to show off work, so if you have a portfolio website with work you have done, you're already far ahead
iron cave
True as that may be, it's not always the case sadly.
tidal moth
idk how the recruitment front is for juniors now, but it used to be if you're showing off good work then you're going to get an interview. I'd wager it still is like that
iron cave
Then would depend on the work, funnily enough I remember being rejected for a German Support member, turns out my "German isn't good enough". Fun fact, my mother sat me through the entire thing who is pure German. Either Ubisoft is using a different dialect of German, or I missed the memo.
tidal moth
I don't know what a support member does, but it doesn't sound like it's a core discipline in game development
iron cave
It's mostly just sorting out accounts, people who have problems running the game, so forth.
tidal moth
so I can't speak for what those interviews require
well that's customer support
that's not really game dev
iron cave
It's not, but even if it isn't game dev related. It would put a foot in the door.
If it's customer support in a different area not related to games then of course it would be pointless.
tidal moth
a very roundabout way of doing that
but I guess it's as good as any job while you work on your portfolio
so why not
iron cave
Well, if you can't get into QA testing, you might as well try different routes.
I so far only knew one person who got into Game'Dev jobs via QA testing, but he was a lucky man.
tidal moth
I never got in through QA
but to be fair in my company a few of our people are from QA
again, I would stress building a portfolio rather than just arbitrarily try to get in through auxiliary roles
iron cave
I am trying to do a bit of both, but with Music it's mostly just Soundclouds and Commissions. Till I got a soundtrack fitting to make a mod of for a game just to show it off.
tidal moth
I would rather have someone who is passionate enough to devote their free time to their discipline than I would have someone who just wants to make games regardless of role
but yeah, I think we agree on the point that having a job and working the portfolio on the side is good
iron cave
Depends on the job of course.
Some jobs tend to cause stress, which reduces your work on your side project for portfolio building.
iron cave
Last time I worked at a warehouse, every time I got home I barely had the motivation to continue making my projects for portfolios because I am exhausted when ever I get home.
And when your forced into a Zero Hour Contract, that makes things a little more worse. You have less time to do your stuff and focus more on keeping the job till you get the contract.
tidal moth
I'm sure there's plenty of jobs around that don't force you into labor like conditions
focus on those then
any job becomes routine at some point, so it's at that point I would expect someone to start working something on the side
iron cave
Well being jobless at the moment gives me time to work on the things I need to do, so hence I finally have time to do proper commissions and earn a little dosh on the side. Plus I don't have to worry much about travel, back in England if you don't own a car your pretty much f***d. Since living in small villages tend to be a death sentence for work.
tidal moth
anyway it's been a bit of an aside here. the point is that if you want to get in, having a portfolio counts as way more than trying to work your way up the hierarchy
iron cave
Yeah it's a obvious point. It's a common move, unless you are super lucky.
cedar grail
right now my team is learning unreal engine
cause we are going to make a game with it
we have never tried unreal
cause we used to use unity
can u guys give me some advise
thin escarp
Guys I guess all of us have missed the message I have posted above
I have to learn a specific skillset and never used unreal before but much aware with Maya Vray VRed alias etc
Just wanted to ask if there are any resources/tutorials I should follow
I really have to achieve it for an important task
karmic kayak
i doubt we missed your message...
ashen lynx
We truly did not.
vagrant onyx
Oh wow, a review of my thesis paper on making a game with Blueprint came in
"One of the best works I've recently reviewed, I would highly suggest giving it a distinction"
Magna cum laude diploma, here I come!
neat jackal
Not sure who handles this or if it's already been reported, but it seems the bot in the job-board channels is broken, it's not tagging the posters anymore so it's difficult to know who posted, instead it's tagging a non-clickable string of numbers (probably a user ID it gets from the Discord API or something?)
digital gate
They're aware, but it's because those people have never posted. Easy solution is to have em post to summon the bot DM
viscid ermine
Does anyone need a writer?
fluid relic
hello!
I'm mostly a RPG, mechanics and systems designer and I wanted to put everything together in a portfolio somehow. after checking a lot of general design portfolios (like UX designers', for example), I came up with the idea of showcasing highlights of stuff I've worked at, following the rough idea:
the process of turning Ideas into Logic, and then Logic into Systems or Mechanics
... or something around these lines. anyone stumbled into something like that?
the problem for me is that I want to make a portfolio showcasing stuff for the general public, not only to experts from the game/RPG developing communities
inner anchor
It may be worth noting that the stuff which someone in the general public is interested in is probably different than what a game developer is interested in. Trying to target both audiences with a single document or example is probably doomed to satisfy neither party because they interact with and understand the material at such disparate levels.
tidal moth
@fluid relic I like that idea. as for what your systems do, I would try and showcase the logic of the system and the perhaps show a gif or a video of the system in action
that way everyone is on board
I'm also glad that someone else wants to pick up the systems design roles because man that is one hell of a chore usually
fluid relic
@inner anchor yeah, I agree with you. I want to focus the portfolio towards the general public at first. I thought of dividing it in three optional levels of complexity:
- general public (excerpts briefly explaining how the idea became the system)
- game/system/mechanic overviews (for people that want to get the rough idea about specific projects without actually having to play it)
- the actual projects/publications, for people that want to play/buy it
this is usually done dividing portfolio websites in tabs, but I feel that they could be inserted as optional in the middle of the general public portfolio
@tidal moth yeah. thinking outside the box, people will want to do something with you or hire you to do something because they like the way you turn ideas into a system or mechanic that do exactly what you expected them to do. I will probably do something like Developer Blogs that a lot of devs do, showcasing mechanics and explaining a bit about the thought process and the objective achieved with that mechanic
and for me designing systems and mechanics was kinda natural π I love it, it's just hard to illustrate
inner anchor
@fluid relic you could also try organizing the portfolio with an overview page containing the stuff the public might be interested in (high level stuff), and link to dedicated pages containing case studies for each of the high level concepts / systems. People who aren't interested in the case studies would probably skim one before going back to the overview which contains the stuff they care about, and it allows you to show that you're able to explain the work that you've done at multiple levels.
that is, as opposed to just having one page with all your complicated work on it as a tab
fluid relic
that's exactly what I was thinking about, but explained better π
I didn't mean to put everything in a single page. I meant that I wanted to make a master page (the overview you mentioned) redirecting to everything else. most websites I've checked has a general public showcase and then a list of works in another completely unrelated page
I'd still have a full list of selected works, of course
but I wanted to give some context to why people should bother checking them
inner anchor
yea, that makes sense. If you want a public page that explains your processes, you could explain them at a high level and have a section for each process that says something like "This/these case stud(y|ies) exhibits this process in this way [link]"
I wouldn't want to make it too complicated though
fluid relic
yup. for now I'm more concerned about dragging attention from people that have no expertise in game developing at all, like how they work and such. this is why the focus would be mostly on the logic and creativity
everybody has logic and creativity skills, in theory π
tidal moth
I think most recruiters will understand and forward a portfolio if they see something they like
at least in the games industry
do you have work experience?
fluid relic
nope. just projects I've worked on a hobby. the thing is that I don't want exactly to work in the games industry, but more towards "using games to something else". like using games in schools, simulations, healthcare, etc
I'm planning to debut a publishing company of traditional RPGs and tabletop games tho. I think that I will end up using Unreal mostly for those other projects that may arise
inner anchor
publishing company?
tidal moth
like board game apps
fluid relic
yeah, I could do that. electronic versions of board games are viable too
tidal moth
but yeah, publishing takes capital
inner anchor
^
flat gazelle
And network
fluid relic
yup. I've started saving. and yeah, I'll need to expand my network considerably. working on it
it's something that I've been working slowly but steadly
thus the need of having a way to present myself to people from different areas
professionally
tidal moth
it's all good, you seem to know what you want
fluid relic
I'm more of a border guy. I like to be between various areas and bring them together into something awesome
I learned a lot with Unreal. managed to pull decent scripts with the amazing Blueprint system. hopefully won't be touching any other engine. maybe UE5, if I'm still doing it π
tidal moth
if you don't want to work with other engines I definitely do not recommend the games industry