#career-chat | Unreal Source | Page 59

plucky hatch Feb 24, 2019, 4:43 PM

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They want you fully invested in THEIR company

lilac walrus Feb 24, 2019, 5:25 PM

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that's not really true at all - worst case scenario is that your contract will have no compete and IP ownership clauses in it that prevent you from working on or releasing said game

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a lot of companies have neither and you can release your own hobby projects just fine, and some companies will require permission as part of their no-compete, but it also won't necessarily be an issue either

plucky hatch Feb 24, 2019, 6:04 PM

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You have two students. One desperately want to work in AAA studios and work from 9-11pm every day. UE4 is his life.
The other candidate dreams to make his own indie game. You know that he isnt going to stay for overtime after 5, he is going to go back home... desperately wanting to make his indie game.

Who will you choose?
Not the second dude...

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The individuals who fit the first profile generally set themselves up for success. Mike Gonthier, a level designer that I had the chance to meet and work with at Campus ADN (2014) matched that first profile above. He stood out from everyone else, he worked at Immersive Studio as Technical Level Designer, then Compulsion games as a LD, then Eidos and now Defiant Studios on Lords of the Fallen 2.

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And from my generation (2007), I know who got jobs and who didn't. The story repeats itself.

lilac walrus Feb 24, 2019, 7:14 PM

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Wanting to make AAA games and wanting to make your own games aren't mutually exclusive concepts

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hiring someone on the basis of the assumption that they won't do overtime is actually illegal in a lot of places

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(and arguably there shouldn't be overtime anyway, so what a person does with their free time outside of work is of no concern to the company)

plucky hatch Feb 24, 2019, 7:28 PM

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In many places, the OT is how you get raises.
And if a person is focused on making indie games, she is likely to not be as specialized.

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In the beginning of the career.

remote saffron Feb 24, 2019, 7:29 PM

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i would most likely hire the one who is better for the job 🤷

plucky hatch Feb 24, 2019, 7:29 PM

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exactly

remote saffron Feb 24, 2019, 7:29 PM

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but I am not in the position to hire people so that does not matter much

plucky hatch Feb 24, 2019, 7:29 PM

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The students who generally try to make their own games often end up spreading themselves too thin

remote saffron Feb 24, 2019, 7:30 PM

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the fact that someone does not want to make an own game does not imply that he is better at anything tbh

plucky hatch Feb 24, 2019, 7:30 PM

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If you've worked X years in X department and then years later decide to make your own games, it's a bit different

remote saffron Feb 24, 2019, 7:31 PM

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anyway, if you are working on something, not putting it in the cv sounds like weird to me

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same person doing something cool should be always better than same person not doing anything in the same time 🤔

plucky hatch Feb 24, 2019, 7:33 PM

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Let's say we have 2 years.
one person focuses on creating environments and the other tries to make her own game.
Which one is going to be the more qualified 3d artist for the job?

remote saffron Feb 24, 2019, 7:33 PM

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depends on a lot of factors to be honest

lilac walrus Feb 24, 2019, 7:33 PM

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^

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it's kind of a false equivalence

remote saffron Feb 24, 2019, 7:33 PM

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having experience working with a small team where you manage yourselves can make a huge difference

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you try to generalize the case too much but it's not how life works imo

lilac walrus Feb 24, 2019, 7:34 PM

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people who have managed to release decent little indie titles on their own demonstrate an ability to self-organise, commit, and learn that people who haven't done that might not have

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and not all generalised knowledge is bad either

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knowing a decent amount of basics is pretty useful in a large studio environment

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heck, it's where Technical Designers and Artists come from a lot of the time

fickle hatch Feb 24, 2019, 7:45 PM

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I've contemplated technical artist as a potential job

lilac walrus Feb 24, 2019, 7:47 PM

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I slipped sideways from Programming into Technical Design some time back

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suits me better anyway, since I've always had fairly broad knowledge of UE4's content creation tools

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that and I like to work directly with game mechanics / system design, so the design side of it works for me

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so there's plenty of space for people with good generalised knowledge, hehe

fickle hatch Feb 24, 2019, 7:50 PM

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I like doing workflows and designing tools, pipelines etc

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And directly working with general art stuff and technical art stuff

ashen lynx Feb 24, 2019, 7:50 PM

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The other candidate dreams to make his own indie game. You know that he isnt going to stay for overtime after 5, he is going to go back home... desperately wanting to make his indie game.

Who will you choose?
Not the second dude...``` I would not give a slightest about what an employee is doing in his/her free time to be fair and would not make any assumptions regarding this fact, if surfaced in any way, affecting his/her ability to perform job duties.

lilac walrus Feb 24, 2019, 7:51 PM

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I might actually be a bit concerned about someone who works from 9:00-23:00 every day

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that's not healthy and that individual is going to crash and burn at some point

honest cipher Feb 24, 2019, 7:51 PM

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i think the indie dev is superior

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becouse probably more creative or tries more different things

lilac walrus Feb 24, 2019, 7:51 PM

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the implication of a complete lack of social life also raises a red flag or two

honest cipher Feb 24, 2019, 7:51 PM

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could have interesting ideas

lilac walrus Feb 24, 2019, 7:52 PM

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it implies they might not get on well with other people

fickle hatch Feb 24, 2019, 7:52 PM

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The workaholics are something to approach with caution

neat jackal Feb 24, 2019, 7:53 PM

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tbh, I'd argue the second person might be more likely to get the job ar a smaller indie company. It means they probably know a bit more about different areas of development, so they can work together with the people in different departments easier, plus they're more likely to help think about the game, it's design and gameplay, and bringing new ideas/prototypes to the table.

lilac walrus Feb 24, 2019, 7:56 PM

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depends on their position; I don't necessarily need people to be creative, but understanding other roles a little helps you understand their respective needs and workflows, which makes it easier to integrate and not step on anyone else's toes, hehe

ashen lynx Feb 24, 2019, 7:56 PM

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Sworn workaholics seem to show less potential in career growth. When becoming in charge, they tend to push people, demanding from them the same they are doing. And this commonly results in negative consequences.

plucky hatch Feb 24, 2019, 7:58 PM

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It's one profile. There are many.

ashen lynx Feb 24, 2019, 7:58 PM

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perhaps

lilac walrus Feb 24, 2019, 7:58 PM

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I tend to find they lack leadership qualities, but that's fine, career growth doesn't mean you have to move into a management position

plucky hatch Feb 24, 2019, 8:05 PM

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I'm a workholic myself, mainly worked on core teams (in leadership position). And when I went back to college that time in 3d art instead of game/level design..., during our final session we had to work with 3 groups of students for the final project. At the end, there were a few awards to give to the most deserving students. The students ended up giving me the award for leadership. Of course, there a different leadership types and qualities. And I fall more under enabling others, spotting problems ahead of time and managing the project, so that others can just work on their stuff.

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Would I consider myself a workholic? not really. But instead of partying or going out or else.
I spend that time on game dev. That's all..

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But all the best employees, in my opinion, that i have met share similar traits. They were where they were because that's what they did with their free time.
They kept messing around with UE4 or doing art when everyone else was too busy doing other things.

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One thing that i've personally noticed over the years is once people find jobs they tend to slack.

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Someone I know has been talking about opening his own game studio for years and while he still talks about it, I had time to move away from game/level design, get into 3D art, QA testing and programming. Four years have passed.

harsh brook Feb 24, 2019, 8:41 PM

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just gotta be careful not to fall into the "jack of all trades, master of none" camp

plucky hatch Feb 25, 2019, 1:02 AM

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Idk I'm in and out of shit jobs and in my spare time I make gamed

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But then I can't stay in the shit jobs

plucky hatch Feb 25, 2019, 1:55 AM

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All Im saying is you can work on a game during your free time and expand your portfolio without having to even mention that you are actually making a game.

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Unless your goal is to take your project to kickstarter and Indiegogo which should work against most contracts

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Well of course you'd mention it unless you had enough experience it didn't matter

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There are different opinions on this. I heard a lot of people advise to not add personal projects to your resume

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Well in my case that leaves me with basically nothing also surely it wouldn't hurt

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It's just stuff you've done

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I always say it's never black or white.
It always depends on who looks at your profile.

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And it's hard to anticipate that.

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You'll have a portfolio/resume/else that will please or turn off certain people

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All you can do is do your best to play your cards right

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I'm pretty much a hobo since graduating mate

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Just done some trash jobs on and off

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Just would like financial stability then I can code in my free time, job in coding would be sweet but not essential

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Game ciding

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I had a talk with my friend at Ubisoft about the hiring process, how to meet the requirements, etc.
For art, it's often about portfolio. Lot of former recruiters have said they were just looking through artstation portfolios and that was pretty much it.
But he went to talk to sr. artists there and they told him it was more about who you know.

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Sounds corrupt

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And that's the thing with career advice.
There is no definite answer other than... play your cards right and hope for the best

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Not really. It's just human nature

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Hire friends. promote friends

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As I said if I never get a job in this it might be for the best as seeing something as work would turn me off it maybe

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Just want enough comfort and free time to pursue a project or two of my own

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Art directors in need of hiring someone might try to hire someone that they previously worked with and that they know will do the job

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I had this discussion with an art director (ea) and lead artist (warner bros)

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I could be a company mascot

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lol

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I'm just worried if I get a semi decent job eg in accounting it'll take too much brain space up so I won't care for this

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that's why im not going into programming

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even if I could

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I want to keep my head for else

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Well that's why I've been doing manual work but it's unstable labour mainly

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If it's not too personal, in what area do you live?

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aren't there any big companies around?

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they usually are good places

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Essex uk

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Yeah of course London

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I could have stayed at gameloft forever

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I just needed a breath of fresh air

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I don't mind if I don't join a games company priority is stability and independence. I just would hate a job that uses my brain too much

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Im a quake /UT kind of guy and they made me work on CoD clones for too long. Couldnt take it anymore lmao

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My boss came to me, yeah we need you on the new modern combat game and I was like. Just pick the other Chris he will love it. Nah, I want you. You';ve worked on the past 3.

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X_x...

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UT?

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unreal

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Unreal tournament

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What's that about

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hunting players with cool guns?
https://youtu.be/I-zQ9yWakTA

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Player movements matter more and the guns are more varied.

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(it's a joke video, I aint boasting)

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But I mean what was it? Was it kind of a showcase of unreal engine or whatever it was at the time? Was it a fan Ng event? Or a mix?

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Gaming*

frosty nimbus Feb 25, 2019, 2:18 AM

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🤔

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have you heard of the Unreal Engine

plucky hatch Feb 25, 2019, 2:19 AM

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Epic Games made a singleplayer game named Unreal that was released in 1998.
Then they made a multiplayer game Unreal Tournament 99.
Then they made 2k3, 2k4 and UT3 and Gears of War... Bulletstorm
And then Fortnite.

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Right

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You have Unreal Engine 4, thanks to Unreal.

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You like Fortnite?

finite mulch Feb 25, 2019, 2:20 AM

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lol

plucky hatch Feb 25, 2019, 2:20 AM

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I like the art.

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I'm scared 5 will come out while I'm learning 4

finite mulch Feb 25, 2019, 2:21 AM

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Nah

plucky hatch Feb 25, 2019, 2:21 AM

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I think UE4 is just beginning.

finite mulch Feb 25, 2019, 2:21 AM

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They aren't switching to 5 anytime soon

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And most of the knowledge from 4 should be reusable anyways

plucky hatch Feb 25, 2019, 2:22 AM

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Can make my space game in peace then

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They've been working on UE4 since 2003 or 2005...
And Epic Games has always been aiming for... making games -> game engine -> their own store
Now they got it all.

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I'm trying to learn a bit of c++ as maybe that's pretty transferrable but haven't felt the need

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UE4 was a long term plan
And considering that graphics aren't improving as much as they used to be and the production costs are so high.
UE4 will stick around for a long time

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And we all benefit from it too

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hardware gets better, we get better

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Was that you shooting

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yeah

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Who won?

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Depends who is in the other team and who I have to carry.

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🍿

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Joke <--

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I was a former top tier FPS player before I decided to get into game/level design.

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So, I have different expectations from ''designers''.

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And I respect the fact that others might come from different backgrounds. (films, story telling, puzzle, etc.).

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I'm not top tier anything I like my wow though

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So, I specialize in 3rd person and first person action games. And combat heavy games.

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And unfortunately, there are many misconceptions about people like me lol

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Like top tier players can't understand how to make games for everyone and will make games too hard

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I'm a maths grad from Cambridge uk

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or competitive people have a big ego, etc

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nice

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I like math guys

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I only got low grade

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it's fine 😛

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I'll probably write it wrong, but the guys who get into electrical engineering often have some of the most interesting profiles

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But isn't that just what they studied?

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yeah, but many of them have high intelligence and curiosity. they pickup anything tech related quite fast

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servers, programming, game dev

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Tbh I like a mix of both I enjoy art even though I'm prolly shit at it

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In my experience, the best employes that a company can find are usually either heavily specialized in one area or became proficient in the 2-3 spheres (programming / art / design) and can benefit from them all together.

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Doesn't that just describe everyone who isn't bad xd

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Because to get good at one makes it easy to get good at a second thing

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Well, there are generalists, specialists, multi-specialists and unqualified people.

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lol

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If I finish I'll link my game here or message it to you it's pretty short

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In the completed bit or whatever

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When I was working at gameloft. The most valuable level designers werent the best at design. they were well rounded (prog/art/design) and were getting things done fast.

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like speed over quality

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Yeah sometimes it's easy to get distracted by irrelevant stuff or get obsessed with the optimal best to do something

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Way*

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not what I meant

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lol

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I literally meant workspeed > quality.

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would be better to make 1 shitty map in 1 day than an excellent map in two days.

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Well you can refine after

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wont happen

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Well I guess it's dependent on deadlines

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the most productive people were also being wrongly promoted as leads

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instead of making them the main designers.

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if you give them management you ll slow them down

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But surely not everyone can be like that

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One guy can churn out art the other can refine it

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I would rather try to find one of the least productive guys that posses leadership qualities and make them managers

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I dont know who started the ''a lead more earn more and is a promotion''

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it's wrong

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a lead is just a different role, it's a manager. that's all it is

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your most productive employees are your superstars and most valuable assets

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Jason Rubin talked about this in 2004
https://youtu.be/uhmYENdFZc8

YouTube

Bdizz2012

D.I.C.E. SUMMIT 2004 - JASON RUBIN - TARA REID AND THE FUTURE OF G...

For those of you who don't know, this is the very controversial speech that Jason Rubin, Co-Founder of Naughty Dog, gave days before announcing that he was l...

▶ Play video

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We are doing it wrong. We dont invite our superstars to parties.
We invite human resources and the business guys. Not the talent that makes those products.

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It's just wrong lol.

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For me if I find something easy I will chug away at it if not I will get distracted and actually start interacting with people

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I remember one day, our team just finished a game. We shipped it. We had a pizza friday.
The next week, our company was having a 5 stars party in another country on a Yacht for the game we just shipped.
Well, thank you guys. The pizza was great...

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Depends on pizza and who is there

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I mean the people having the party had nothing to do with the game we made.

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Yeah but was there alcohol

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Our dev team didnt have the party. The business guys in france did

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I bet you were allowed to get more drunk at the pizza party

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just your regular friday pizza

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and who do you think did all the overtime

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the dev team or the guys in france?

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🍿

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A friend told me about overtime if that's unpaid it's criminal

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This industry needs to make some serious changes with how we deal with ''talent''.

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In the industry you get paid for the year. your overtime is like anticipated in your salary

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I remember that game testers, because they were paid for overtime, could earn more than level designers.

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If... they were doing OT.

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all the time

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But that's in a case where LDs dont earn much either.

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Sounds like a career I'd be down with but first I'd like to finish my shitty explorer thing

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This is something I always found a bit funny but...
Whenever there are layoffs in the industry, it usually touches game dev teams.
Rarely it touches Human Resources or everyone else involve in running the studio.

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If you are looking for a safe job...

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You'll know where to look.

sudden island Feb 25, 2019, 8:11 AM

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alright so i amm now ready to offer a job to a programmer

remote saffron Feb 25, 2019, 8:12 AM

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#looking-for-talent

sudden island Feb 25, 2019, 8:12 AM

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we pay hourly though and im curious, if there are any inda guidelines on what someone would charge

spice dagger Feb 25, 2019, 9:22 AM

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If your not sure perhaps ask for rates in your job listing. Usually you will get what you pay for.

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Choose someone with a rate that your able to pay and think is reasonable for their experience and the task itself.

jaunty furnace Feb 25, 2019, 2:40 PM

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Hey, Someone know if we can use free asset from ue4 marketplace for a commercial game ? 🤔

urban stump Feb 25, 2019, 3:13 PM

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Anything on the marketplace or learn tab, yes. The only exception is you cannot use things from any game modding kits.

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Just not in other engines.

bleak grail Feb 26, 2019, 5:23 PM

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If anyone has been employed to work in the UK from outside the EU and America under the Tier2 work visa please contact me, got some questions. Thanks 👍

sour mist Feb 26, 2019, 6:57 PM

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https://store.steampowered.com/app/896510/Norpon/
I would love some marketing advice please, feel free to DM me or ping me in a channel. So far below 50 sales, 7 positive reviews, 0 negative reviews.
I used Key Mailer to send keys to a lot of YouTubers/streamers but only a few small streamers have actually streamed the game.

Steam

Norpon

An MMO game with a turn-based strategic battle system, tame and train Norpons, build structures, conquer challenges and discover new areas, all in a mysterious vast multiplayer open world!TURN BASED BATTLE SYSTEMA turn-based strategic battle system.Defeat wild Norpons, Tra...

Price

$19.99

▶ Play video

rapid garden Feb 27, 2019, 2:39 PM

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@sour mist well its early access, have you looked into doing a public Trello board? get a community involved in the development (that's what the star dew valley guy did), do a weekly update to the board, post frequently, go to conventions, have a plan for one-to-one communication, all it takes is meeting the right few people in person to get publicity.

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and a dev blog to go along with the other content.

sour mist Feb 27, 2019, 2:57 PM

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well for a public trello board you really need a community, and that's what I'm having issues getting...

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The issue is I can't seem to get big youtubers/streamers to play the game.. Only very few small ones streamed..
All the reviews (7) are positive and the people who bought the game are pretty active on the server and enjoying it...
@rapid garden

rapid garden Feb 27, 2019, 4:29 PM

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@sour mist well you have to start somewhere when building a community. on streamers, don't but all your eggs in one basket with those, they optimize profit, (because its a living to some), and they seek the grow (in most cases)

sour mist Feb 27, 2019, 4:30 PM

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What

rapid garden Feb 27, 2019, 4:32 PM

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@sour mist this just goes on your portfolio, you don't have to have it be a big hit now, just work some side job for the bills, and keep move on a strategy, time will only tell.

sour mist Feb 27, 2019, 4:36 PM

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So basically you are saying to give up

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Best tip you could give?

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..

plucky hatch Feb 27, 2019, 4:43 PM

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Try sharing on Facebook? Go to gaming lounges or other lounges, talk to people who are interested in your kind of game.

ocean harbor Feb 27, 2019, 4:51 PM

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@sour mist didn't you publish another game like half a year ago?

sour mist Feb 27, 2019, 4:54 PM

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@ocean harbor yea, wasn't really serious tho

karmic kayak Feb 27, 2019, 5:25 PM

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quite a few "not so serious" games...on the "released" list... i guess

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only one: https://steamcommunity.com/app/672220

Steam Community :: Unlimited

Unlimited

ocean harbor Feb 27, 2019, 6:08 PM

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@sour mist "MMO game with a turn-based strategic battle" by the looks of it it's more like CRPG with base building. I honestly don't know how you can attract people to review it. First of all because MMO genre is heavily saturated and your game will be compared to others in the genre:

📎 unknown.png

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like you have to find a youtuber who is into indy MMOs and you can suprise them somehow

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maybe push more "Pokemon" side of the game, people seam to like those

sour mist Feb 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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@ocean harbor it's a turn-based mmo, it's pretty clear everyone on the store page

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maybe push more "Pokemon" side of the game, people seam to like those that ^

digital gate Feb 27, 2019, 6:10 PM

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Why even ask for feedback when you just dismiss it out of hand

ocean harbor Feb 27, 2019, 6:11 PM

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yeah, but first word is MMO and huge tag "massive multiplayer"

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it was like that last time

digital gate Feb 27, 2019, 6:11 PM

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Technically speaking any flash game with play-by-email or w/e is a turned based MMO.

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Doesn't mean that it fits the common use.

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I see you next to ESO, ARK, WF, etc, I'll expect roughly the same things.

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For an MMO, your trailer sure has a lot of 1 person playing PvE

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Also you could show the social features that set MMOs apart more, or at all.

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It's really easy to be close to something and think it's great, but truly attempt to put yourself into a jaded consumer's perspective.

tough blade Feb 28, 2019, 9:12 AM

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how to become a game designer? i have gud thinking and i can think about new inovative type of games

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mention me while answring me

vernal wolf Feb 28, 2019, 9:12 AM

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@tough blade I got a school for you

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRWvfMLl4ho

YouTube

Scott Johnson

Game testers

Best job ever?

▶ Play video

west sonnet Feb 28, 2019, 9:15 AM

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Now that’s just cruel

tough blade Feb 28, 2019, 9:15 AM

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that game tester not game designer

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@vernal wolf

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was it some type of joke?

plucky hatch Feb 28, 2019, 10:32 AM

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@tough blade
What is the job of a game designer?

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Answer: Designing games

So what do you need to do?
Answer: Designing games

Click here to download and view the Game Design Document of Dirty Bomb
https://www.dirtybomb.com/news/the-design-of-dirty-bomb/

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And download a version of Unreal Engine 4.
Start making games.

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https://www.epicgames.com/unrealtournament/download

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📎 unknown.png

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📎 unknown.png

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You can also search for job postings to know more about what specific game companies are looking for.

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One of the nice things with UE4 is you can use Blueprints to make games and there is now a lot of documentation and tutorials on the subject to get you started.

📎 DSbcwdl.png

tough blade Feb 28, 2019, 10:47 AM

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i already use unreal engine 4

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@plucky hatch

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i need to know how can i qualifi to get jobs or even apply for jobs?

plucky hatch Feb 28, 2019, 10:51 AM

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Get a job as level designer, get promoted to game designer
Get lucky, get a job as a game designer
make a cool indie game, get hired at a studio, because your game was well received (ex: hyper light drifter, the guy then worked at square enix)

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Make game design documents.

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My advice would be to find a job at a small game company where you can move internally to a game designer position.
Then move elsewhere if you want.

tough blade Feb 28, 2019, 11:09 AM

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ok

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i am working on a survival coop game maybe it will help me get job

plucky hatch Mar 1, 2019, 4:23 PM

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Do you think it might be good to have two CVs one for this kind of stuff the other where I list stuff like brick punching skills and stuff

steel creek Mar 1, 2019, 5:45 PM

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I have multiple resumes

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Make a resume specific to the job you want

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I dont put the years I ran restaurants on my resume for pipeline dev e.g. makes zero sense except if its a context for "manager", but then, I have more recent experience to show that.

plucky hatch Mar 1, 2019, 6:00 PM

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Yeah I agree it occured to me today. Thanks for advice

plucky hatch Mar 1, 2019, 9:54 PM

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How would you guys approach a resume when the person had the opportunity to wear multiple hats in game dev? (designer, artist, programmer, etc.)
Which to me is the really tricky situation, because some people will see it as a plus and others won't.

fickle hatch Mar 1, 2019, 10:44 PM

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I'd put it all into a resume and give this resume to the person who actually makes decisions and not the HR guys

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😄

remote saffron Mar 1, 2019, 11:06 PM

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how do you get to them tho 🤔 ?

fickle hatch Mar 1, 2019, 11:17 PM

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@remote saffron you ask your friend who knows them

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Or a friend of a friend

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The core message here is more "make friends" than any actual advice

remote saffron Mar 1, 2019, 11:18 PM

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But it's hard to make new friends 😢

fickle hatch Mar 1, 2019, 11:24 PM

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@remote saffron that's where "person had opportunity to wear multiple hats" comes into play really well

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People with rich experiences are great to make friends with

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 3:56 AM

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I like sombreros

karmic kayak Mar 2, 2019, 12:02 PM

#

depends on the Studios you're aiming for. AAA's are usually not interested in generalists. And even smaller Studios (I'm talking about ~70 people in size) have adopted the "experts/specialists prefered" way.

#

Unless you're actually the one in a million guy who is demonstrable very good at all those disciplines.

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 3:25 PM

#

... 🦄

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:04 PM

#

I mean... to put people into boxes is a bit extreme. It is rare that people will be equally great at everything. And no one can possibly keep up with every single field either. If I had to show it in terms of percentages, more or less. It could look like this.

Top tier player: 85-98% (natural)
Game designer: 90% (natural)
Level designer: 85% (acquired)
3D Artist: 80% (acquired & ramping up)
Programmer: 75% (acquired)
QA Microsoft compliance tester: 75%(acquired)

#

--
Plus we are all capped to a certain degree in every fields too. I probably wouldnt be able to go higher than let's say 85% in programming and to go from 75% to 85% would be worth it either. I just dont have the type of brain wired for that.

#

or I would only be a 1 trick poney. like unity c# developer.

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 4:15 PM

#

0.o

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:27 PM

#

Problem is, somebody comes along and is 90% at programming

#

may not make a difference you've got all these other things - maybe it will

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:28 PM

#

Sure.

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:28 PM

#

What you scaling that again?

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:30 PM

#

The scaling isnt accurate. It is just to further illustrate the concept of someone competent in multiple areas and might fill roles that take advantage of more than 1.

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:30 PM

#

I think the point is that those roles dont exist at those levels

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:31 PM

#

I just dont have the type of brain wired for that

#

That bugs me

#

That is not how noggins work

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:31 PM

#

Say the entire company is 95% at their role - at that point you have to be 90s to be considered, and the pct in other areas is just a nice bonus

#

(ofc that'd be super tough to curate, but y'kno)

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:35 PM

#

As I said the percentages could have different value depending on how you view it and the culture.

You could look at it in terms of population or academic excellence or personal comparison.

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:35 PM

#

If you want to be a generalist in a AAA company you still need a specialist skill

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:35 PM

#

ofc you might go multi-specialist

#

idk, would be tough to maintain

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:36 PM

#

I here the word generalist thrown around alot, and i actually cant name more than 2 properly generalists in slackers that are skilled off the top of my head

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:37 PM

#

i dont think generalist can have a job in aaa. multi specialist would. generalist would be more of a hobbyist

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:38 PM

#

alright I lost your point I think

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:38 PM

#

but again it depends on what the term means to you

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:38 PM

#

I dont get your initial point

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:39 PM

#

Generalist = knows a bit of all, isnt professional enough in anything to be employed

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:39 PM

#

nope

#

I am a generalist i guess, and i get work.

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:39 PM

#

Multi-specialist = proficient in more than 1 field

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:40 PM

#

and i am hopefully on my way to getting a proper job as a full time engineer if i keep this up

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:40 PM

#

Tor Frick used to call himself a 3D generalist. And still think it is funny

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:41 PM

#

No idea who that is but your point seams to sit disproven

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:41 PM

#

and the point was?

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:41 PM

#

That's what I'm wondering, did you have one?

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:42 PM

#

Copy Cat NinjaToday at 4:39 PM
Generalist = knows a bit of all, isnt professional enough in anything to be employed
Rei -Official Slacker Anime GirlToday at 4:39 PM
nope
I am a generalist i guess, and i get work.```

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:43 PM

#

No. I was wondering what people should do when they worked proffessionally in multiple areas but are applying for a specific job and they dont want their previous jobs to be seen as a negative thing.

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:43 PM

#

They wouldn't be seen as anything negative

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:43 PM

#

Trim the fat?

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:44 PM

#

you say that ive been told differently.

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:44 PM

#

Not unless you are a cat murder'er or something

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:44 PM

#

unless you've only worked a few jobs in any area

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:44 PM

#

"hi im experienced c++ engineer i like tools, i also done animation and rigging and been paid for it, can i work 4 u epic?"
"no u cant, we dont want u rigging types around here"

#

im abit dumb so you might need to clarify your point even more

#

because that is what i am getting

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:45 PM

#

Like im primarily a designer and my background in art and programming make me a better Level Designer. And during an interview some of the guys thought that to have those two other skills were making me less of a LD instead of boosting it.

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:46 PM

#

If you where dismissed because of that, i doubt that was the problem

#

Did you even get a test?

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:46 PM

#

Maybe they think your middling xp level in programming will have you compromising your design because of misconceptions of technical cost.

#

if that's your level of xp, I mean.

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:47 PM

#

dude been in this industry since 2008. never had to pass tests

#

lol

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:47 PM

#

sounds like u never had a job then

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:47 PM

#

so perhaps they want somebody who'll just come up with whatever floats the designer boat without holding back punches.

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:47 PM

#

11 years and never had any sort of test

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:47 PM

#

They want to "make it work"

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:47 PM

#

depends on who you know lol..

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:48 PM

#

Rei, only us newbs have to do tests

dusty jolt Mar 2, 2019, 4:48 PM

#

right gotcha, no tests 4pros

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:49 PM

#

Does it not make sense to you?

#

At a certain point, working at some other place has become the test

#

Though I'll admit IDK how you go from not working -> working without a single test

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:52 PM

#

personally, what i experienced was passing the interview and if it went good I signed the papers afterwards got the job

#

pretty much it

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:53 PM

#

technical interview?

#

Or just as simple as the init phone screen :P

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:55 PM

#

Interview with design director
Interview with HR guy + project lead designer + team lead designer
Etc.

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 4:55 PM

#

Yeah, at a certain point in your career, portfolios and tests become obsolete. Your body of work is a known quantity.

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:57 PM

#

I mean would you give Tor Frick an art test? 🤔

#

lol...

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 4:57 PM

#

He didn't try to give me one 😛

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:57 PM

#

😂

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:58 PM

#

I'd give him an art test.

Here's the test: Find all the flaws in my mesh, with constructive critique :P

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 4:58 PM

#

Tor is a Generalist now though.

#

After he left AAA

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 4:58 PM

#

Now if only to entice Tor to work on a game that I don't actually have

#

with a budget of $0

#

=D

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:58 PM

#

Isnt he AAA lead at neon giant now?

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 4:59 PM

#

Neon Giant is 5 people. Hardly AAA

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 4:59 PM

#

lol

#

well in my heart tor is AAA

#

😂

#

But I get what you are saying

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 5:00 PM

#

On the art side it's him and Magnus (unless they've expanded lately), so he has to be a generalist, even though he had a more specialist role at MG

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 5:03 PM

#

man he got a lot of work ahead to do to make this game O_o

#

magnus does vfx right?

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 5:07 PM

#

PFFT! He wishes

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 5:07 PM

#

haha

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 5:07 PM

#

(But yeah, at times)

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 5:09 PM

#

Something I didnt really think about before but is bothering me now is it is one thing to get good at multiple things and then it is another to create and maintain a portfolio for multiple things

#

Like I never really had to have a GD/LD portfolio before. Then did other things, am focusing on art and really have no time to make a portfolio for GD/LD while im pushing for other things, have family, etc.

#

So to me that is the tricky part.

#

Save what you did You'll never know when you'll need it.

honest cipher Mar 2, 2019, 5:20 PM

#

@flat gazelle in my case, i got a test from literally every single job application

#

becouse as an indie who has never worked in an office i was not proven

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 5:21 PM

#

I got tests in the beginning

#

I think DICE was my last test in 2012.

#

To be fair, I have only applied officially for one job so I might not follow the standard.

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 5:27 PM

#

@flat gazelle
Out of curiosity how does your job differ in skillset from 3d artists in vfx?

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 5:28 PM

#

I don't model

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 5:28 PM

#

oh

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 5:28 PM

#

I only work in engine

#

ish

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 5:28 PM

#

lot of animation?

#

or more effects?

#

it is still abstract to me

honest cipher Mar 2, 2019, 5:29 PM

#

he makes pretty things

#

explosions, fire, splashes, smokes, etc

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 5:29 PM

#

I'm a VFX artist, so I do a bit of everything

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 5:34 PM

#

i remember touching particles generators and creating a plane with flowing water in college. But I didnt have enough info to wrap my head around how I would create VFX for let's say a Naruto game with curved vfx.

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 5:35 PM

#

Simples 😉

honest cipher Mar 2, 2019, 5:36 PM

#

@plucky hatch thats why good VFX artists are in demand. It requires a very nice skillset of pure trickery

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 5:36 PM

#

Very specialized, yet broad skillset

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 5:38 PM

#

like how would approach the creation of the Rasengan in Naruto? Do you create those things in houdini? for the ball of energy would you color textures with photoshop?

#

im puzzled lmao

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 5:38 PM

#

#visual-fx

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 5:42 PM

#

Seems to be difficult to put into words 😛

#

That's always the answer I get.

#

Couldn't you just say we use houdini to make the anims, deformation, etc. And then use another software for this, etc.?

#

Unless you want to keep it a secret

#

lmao 😛

#

😂

flat gazelle Mar 2, 2019, 5:44 PM

#

It's not really career advice

#

I'm hapy to help in the right channel.

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 5:44 PM

#

Unless someone is interested in VFX and would like to have a general idea in 1-3 lines.

#

But it's oky. A few tutorials will do...

digital gate Mar 2, 2019, 5:45 PM

#

why are you so resistant to moving channels

plucky hatch Mar 2, 2019, 5:46 PM

#

Im not, he could have meant ''just follow'' X channel.

#

Not move there to ask

#

Edited: And by the way, Glad was very kind and took the time to reply in the other channel. 💗 👌

echo fox Mar 3, 2019, 3:02 PM

#

@flat gazelle probably not cool to ping but... how'd you get started with PFX creation ?

flat gazelle Mar 3, 2019, 3:03 PM

#

How I did or how to do it today?

deft trench Mar 3, 2019, 9:58 PM

#

Hey, just wondering if asking for advise about getting investors on board is relevant to this area?

west sonnet Mar 3, 2019, 9:59 PM

#

It is

deft trench Mar 3, 2019, 9:59 PM

#

Okay, thank you

#

I'm struggling funding my game and I'm a bit worried about going with investors, I've seen good and bad points of investors, but I want to bring my vision to life at it's maximum potential. Has anyone here had experience with investors?

dense needle Mar 4, 2019, 5:36 AM

#

I have. I had the ... joy of trying Angel co. They were the biggest investing scene before the whole bitcoin craze.

high raven Mar 4, 2019, 4:57 PM

#

Hello, can some one how to post in looking-for-work channel?

lilac walrus Mar 4, 2019, 4:58 PM

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look at the pinned post

unkempt marsh Mar 5, 2019, 3:45 AM

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@deft trench yeah one tip get a lawer in advanced thats it investors always want something back walk lightly the first time have a budy system for the no you don't like saying and always counter offer if ones made never take it re offer tell they accept the terms 😛

deft trench Mar 5, 2019, 7:20 AM

#

Eek, ima just leave investors. I'll put a bit more money into it and apply for a Dev grant if that's still around. Just don't really want to get caught up with investors, I've had some people dm me saying don't so gunna step back on it

#

Are UE4 still giving out Dev grants?

lilac walrus Mar 5, 2019, 7:21 AM

#

rarely, but yes

deft trench Mar 5, 2019, 7:46 AM

#

It's only really animations that I need doing left, so just have to save up some money

neat jackal Mar 5, 2019, 8:01 AM

#

@deft trench depending on the project, some possibilities of funding (other than investors or saving up) are:

getting a publisher (can also be a good idea marketing-wise)
crowdfunding
applying for a dev grant at Epic, Indie Fund, local city/country funds, etc. There's loads of funds really.

deft trench Mar 5, 2019, 10:46 AM

#

@neat jackal I'd love to do crowdfunding, im just finding it hard without the specific animations I need then one I get them, I can start a kickstarter / indiegogo

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:09 PM

#

Anyone have any advice about finding help making a game?
I mean finding people that REALLY want to make a game vs people that just want to work on games for a buck and piece out?

#

peace out*

hybrid phoenix Mar 5, 2019, 1:10 PM

#

If you want people that really want to make a game

#

Then you should be getting them emotionally invested in the concept

#

If I'm doing a freelance job, I don't really care that much what ends up happening for the rest of the game, because that's not my problem in the end

#

If I'm working on a passion project I'll work my ass off to make sure everything's perfect, even if it's not really something I would usually worry about

#

It's also a distinction I very intentionally make - and probably many others with me. If you're getting a freelancer on board, you're a client and it's a contract-bound thing. I generally don't care that much what kind of games I work on for freelance either, but for passion projects I do.

#

You can't just search for freelancers/contractors and expect them to care about the game

#

Because if it's your game, why should they, other than the fact that it's a (hopefully) fun job and it pays?

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 1:15 PM

#

you hardly will able to do that unless you work as a collective with all ideas discussed and approved by whole team

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:17 PM

#

I'm finding far more people of the former variety who simply want to freelance. That's fine. Do you. But I'm finding far less people like me that actually have stable incomes just looking to make a game. I've had lots of people I've talked to tell me "wow that's a pretty interesting idea" "I've never seen that kind of thing done before" "good idea" etc. Showed them my prototyping, art, all of that. But in the end, I'm just finding the freelance types

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:17 PM

#

It is extremely difficult to find people that will be willing to work for free, by passion, for a project.
It is very very rare and that's why most amateur teams, mod projects, etc. tend to fail.
The successful products, made by volunteers, are usually driven by a single or few individuals who are doing it all themselves.

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 1:17 PM

#

well, why would someone want to work on someone else idea in their free time?

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:18 PM

#

same reason why someone would work long hours full time while still making less money than me on someone elses idea

#

I suppose

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 1:18 PM

#

huh?

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:19 PM

#

Approx. 10 years ago, I spent a bit of time working with the Project Stealth team, before I got my first job in the industry.
And, surprise, that project is still going on.
http://www.projectstealthgame.com/

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:19 PM

#

I know plenty of people in the games industry that work longer than me but make less or the same money as me

#

and I'm a fulltime part timer

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 1:19 PM

#

how is that have to do with anything?

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:20 PM

#

you asked why people would want to work on someone elses idea in their free time. I would argue that it's better or comparable to the alternative

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 1:20 PM

#

so why don't you just join some existing team instead of trying to create your own?

digital gate Mar 5, 2019, 1:21 PM

#

Nah if I got home after a long day of unrelated job, I'm working on my own prokect

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:21 PM

#

A person is more likely to get a project done by having a small budget and commissioning work.

digital gate Mar 5, 2019, 1:21 PM

#

You can be working on basically one type of game in order to hook me

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:21 PM

#

oh I've tried. Seems even on their own ideas, a lot of people just lack passion to do it

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 1:23 PM

#

if it would be easy, whole industry would work like that already

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:23 PM

#

I once built a mod team to work on an Unreal 1998 remake with UE4. We had a team and after 3 months, nobody was doing anything. I was basically doing everything. It's very difficult to find people that will actually end up doing some work, unpaid by passion.

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 1:23 PM

#

the point is, people with passion tend to use that passion somewhere already. It takes a lot of effort to grab their attention and keep it for years.

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:23 PM

#

I never said it wasn't easy. Which is why I'm asking where I can find people that want to make games. I've used all the avenues that I know about

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:24 PM

#

Motivation only get your so far. You shouldn't be looking for people driven by ''passion''.

#

Find people who are looking for ways to get experience, improve their portfolio, etc.

#

Find people who want to work.

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:25 PM

#

I could try that

#

because people driven by money have given me less reason to be optimistic in people

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 1:26 PM

#

sounds like a weird attitude

#

people who know their shit don't necessary want to spend their time for free

#

places to find people are always the same - gamedev social media, forums, conferences

#

local branches of IGDA and similar

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:31 PM

#

During the past 3 years, I've met a few individuals who had personal issues (health, etc.) and were basically stuck at home. And game dev became their lifestyle and their way to cope with things. I had the chance to meet Zunie from the Unreal Tournament community who was working on a UT 2k4 mod I believe, doing a lot of C++ work. He loved it. Unfortunately, he passed away last year.

But all I'm saying is if you look hard enough, you'll find people who are just waiting for an opportunity to work on cool stuff.

lilac walrus Mar 5, 2019, 1:34 PM

#

they are few and far between, and may have a different definition of 'cool stuff' to you, mind

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:34 PM

#

yeah

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 1:35 PM

#

Typically you would need something more than a cool idea, something that shows in which extend you can contribute to the project. So people can see how their skills can make it better or make it happen instead of being their only thing that makes it happen.

#

like for example, this guy can clearly design cars and other things:
https://forums.unrealengine.com/community/work-in-progress/89715-snowrifters

Unreal Engine Forums

Building something cool? Tell us about it!

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:38 PM

#

Personally, I've seen too many game projects fail. Way too many hours, weeks, months and years being wasted. Families getting destroyed, etc. If you are making a game and want to get people involved, at least pay them or do it all yourself. Dont get people involved into your downfall...

#

An ex-collegue, game designer Salim Larochelle, decided to make his own game. I think he had a budget of $15k CAD. I think he designed and coded everything. But he commissioned the environment art, anims, music, etc.

The Girl and the Robot - Launch Trailer | PS4
https://youtu.be/wX337FEasfA

That worked out for him.

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:44 PM

#

So far I do everything by myself, but I am a lot more self-managed than most people I run into, it seems

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:46 PM

#

Gameplay programmer Nathan Wulf, also known as ''Jitspoe'' is currently working on his own side-scroller indie game.
And he is doing it thanks to some savings. And he is making his game with free / open source softwares (Godot, Blender, etc.). He is still working on his first level, but things seem to be going great for him.

📎 unknown.png

#

Different paths...

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:47 PM

#

Not that they aren't cool, but I don't personally find the 'in the shadows' side scroller platformer to be very interesting.

#

people can definitely tell a story and I can see the appeal, just not for me.

flat gazelle Mar 5, 2019, 1:48 PM

#

If I were to work on a game for free, it'd be my own project. However, if I could find a project that's already running that seems cool enough I could potentially join it if the leader has a proven track record of actually finishing and shipping games. So maybe you should start sharing all your cool previous projects to get people to believe in you, more than the project.

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:49 PM

#

pretty much

flat gazelle Mar 5, 2019, 1:49 PM

#

People follow leaders, not projects

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:49 PM

#

That's exactly why I've seen many people join projects lead by programmers, because that's the one role that can ship a project.

#

Very few people would be crazy enough to join a level designer, 3D animator, etc.

echo fox Mar 5, 2019, 1:50 PM

#

I am hoping this isn't an excuse to expect people to do more work for less

#

when you are trying your best to put food on the table or make rent you really don't have time to destroy your sleep schedule to please someone else

flat gazelle Mar 5, 2019, 1:51 PM

#

That's often what's hidden under the "Passion" label unfortunately.

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:51 PM

#

I was about to say don't pull the food on the table card

echo fox Mar 5, 2019, 1:51 PM

#

I've met a lot of people that used this as an excuse to get more out of me. Thankfully I've started getting in touch with some genuinely great developers now

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:51 PM

#

but there it is

echo fox Mar 5, 2019, 1:51 PM

#

so because you don't like it, it's not true?

#

🤔

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:51 PM

#

No. I'm just saying, if you are that concerned about it, it would be better to find a more stable form of income

#

indie dev has never been that

echo fox Mar 5, 2019, 1:52 PM

#

ain't as easy as snapping fingers chief

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:52 PM

#

When I contributed to Unreal Tournament Pre-Alpha, some of the artists on the team were sometimes writing comments such as ''if it's your passion you wouldn't mind doing it for free''. And I never agreed with it.

echo fox Mar 5, 2019, 1:52 PM

#

some people resort to indie dev to stay afloat between jobs

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:52 PM

#

no need to get hostile. but you need to understand that indie anything is a risk of low income.

lilac walrus Mar 5, 2019, 1:52 PM

#

I've been paid a salary for almost all of my indie dev work

flat gazelle Mar 5, 2019, 1:53 PM

#

I'm more likely to join Carmack, Henning and Hamilton to make a candy crush clone than I am to join an unproven idealist with the coolest idea ever. I like to see my projects finished, that's all.

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:53 PM

#

amber, would you say that is the norm?

lilac walrus Mar 5, 2019, 1:53 PM

#

yes

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:53 PM

#

And Glad, join Carmack then? I dont know

flat gazelle Mar 5, 2019, 1:54 PM

#

No... I already am making games.

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:54 PM

#

XD

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 1:54 PM

#

Indie doesn’t mean making game in free time

flat gazelle Mar 5, 2019, 1:54 PM

#

I too have been paid for all indie work I've done. Though that has been as a freelancer

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:54 PM

#

Indie doesn't mean success, either.

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:54 PM

#

I think those who have been making games professionally for a long time won't appreciate doing volunteering work.

echo fox Mar 5, 2019, 1:55 PM

#

I don't understand how this is related to people being "mere freelancers" vs putting passion in someone else's project

#

heck

flat gazelle Mar 5, 2019, 1:55 PM

#

I do, but then I like to have a bigger impact. Like creating tutorials or courses

echo fox Mar 5, 2019, 1:55 PM

#

mere freelancers deserve wmore respect because of that

#

they still put the time and work in to deliver quality for something they might not care about in the slightest

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:55 PM

#

Some

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:56 PM

#

If you are working on a game project you could try to target people that just graduated and want to add experience to their resume. It's both common and effective.

#

As long as the work is high quality...

echo fox Mar 5, 2019, 1:56 PM

#

"some"
That's on you for not weeding them out, I am afraid

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:57 PM

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I was just adjusting that broad stroke you painted

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and 3D, thanks for your input. Appreciate the advice

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 1:58 PM

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maybe some base should be established, like what do you mean by "passion"?

flat gazelle Mar 5, 2019, 1:58 PM

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Working on someone elses project for me requires at least two things. A steady income meanwhile and/or a high chance of success. Now, I have a stable income so I could work for free on something in the evenings, but I would never do it if it wasn't something I believed had a very high chance of seeing the light of day.

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 1:59 PM

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if you are going to work on a game project and are looking for valuable teammates.
I'd recommend you look for a solid concept artist. It will help you save you a hell lot of time if all you need to do is create content. Takes time to design anything. And then any other artist that joins your team later on will have a todo list.

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 1:59 PM

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High chance of success AND high chance of seeing day? or high chance of success or at least high chance of seeing day?

lilac walrus Mar 5, 2019, 2:00 PM

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high chance of success is moot if it has no chance of seeing day

flat gazelle Mar 5, 2019, 2:00 PM

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Yeah

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 2:00 PM

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but high chance of seeing light of day doesn't mean high chance of success

echo fox Mar 5, 2019, 2:00 PM

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at least it's out there

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worst comes to worst it's resume food

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 2:00 PM

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so I was looking for a clarification

flat gazelle Mar 5, 2019, 2:01 PM

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Success here meaning a finished, shipped project. A project that is everything it was promoted as being. Not financial success.

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 2:01 PM

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I see

flat gazelle Mar 5, 2019, 2:01 PM

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Financial success is very hard to predict, but you can look at a team and judge if it has the capabilitiies of shipping.

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 2:02 PM

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I agree with that

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 2:03 PM

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You could think of the concept artist as someone that will help you create a to do list for your project, not only for you but for everyone else who will join after. Characters, guns, items, environment concepts, etc. Anyone can learn how to code and model or texture. But the art direction can greatly help your game to stand out. And it's a difficult skill to acquire if you are indie.

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 2:07 PM

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Yea I was recently considering looking for at least a good texture artist to help me increase the art creation flow. I've got the modeling I need and I know how I want everything to look. But mix that with the rigging, animation and programming. That's why I'm just looking for people to stick it through. I'll do it alone since I've got the time. It is what it is.

echo fox Mar 5, 2019, 2:08 PM

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what is your project about

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 2:12 PM

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Short version: if dwarf fortress weren't ugly, flat and if it were a first person experience.

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I say that as a lover of dwarf fortress

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 2:15 PM

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complexity of such project would be 95% in code

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are you a programmer?

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 2:16 PM

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I would never attempt a 1-1 of that though

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especially in 3d

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just borrowing concepts and shaping them as necessary

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 2:18 PM

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well, that is obvious

neat jackal Mar 5, 2019, 2:19 PM

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Look at it this way: if I can/want to spend my free time on a game dev project, and I have the option of freelance work that pays or volunteer work/work that pays way less? You need to convince people that there's some upside to working on your project for less money/free, cause otherwise the pros/cons make the easy decision for most people

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 2:19 PM

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if you advertise or describe your game like that to other people, they would expect some atypical level of gameplay complexity or simulation systems, which means a lot of coding and re-coding down the line

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 2:19 PM

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What if everyone would love to work on a game for free, but most people just cannot afford it?

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 2:20 PM

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if you are not the main guy who is doing that, then I'm not sure why someone would be willing to do the most complex part for someone else

neat jackal Mar 5, 2019, 2:20 PM

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So have a good idea, but also be prepared to show previous work, reveal some market research on why the game will succeed, or at least show some form of prototypes/greybox/vertical slice

remote saffron Mar 5, 2019, 2:21 PM

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reveal some market research on why the game will succeed 🤔

neat jackal Mar 5, 2019, 2:22 PM

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Hm, could have put that better

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Not succeed as in become the next fortnite

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But succeed as in not get lost between Steam asset flips

flat gazelle Mar 5, 2019, 2:23 PM

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You'd have to define success for the project first.

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Makinx X amount? Shipping? Becoming an indie darling?

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Know what you are aiming for before doing the research

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 2:23 PM

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Bored: I don't present it like that, I just don't feel the need to get into detail about it with people that are not likely interested in a career advice channel. I'm sure you understand.

River: I see your point. And I would say to those people, pursue what suits you. I am not being a hypocrite here as most posts I look over are ones that are not offering money. I simply don't need it. I want to help people or find people that would mesh well with my skills. I also have plenty of stuff to show for my game that I have done by myself.

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 2:28 PM

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Personally, I'm currently working on a side project. At first, I was ready to do it all myself and still am. However, I'm starting to see where I could strongly benefit from teaming up with a concept artist, a more experienced programmer and a rigger.

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So, it's best to know what you can do and how others could help you best

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Are you doing it for the learning experience or to ship a product ASAP?

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 2:30 PM

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Some years ago we where massaging a coop dwarf fortress idea with a friend. By our estimate it would take too much time to build a prototype that can tell you if it’s worth doing at all.

bitter flower Mar 5, 2019, 2:31 PM

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To ship. I'm making a game that I want to play and that I have seen the desire from others to play.

neat jackal Mar 5, 2019, 2:32 PM

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I've done a project for free as a passion project, which wasn't my own project but I worked on for someone else. There were a couple reasons why I did it:

Portfolio. I joined the project while I was still in college, it was a good way to get a first shipped product on my portfolio.
It was "easy". Sure there were difficult things like any other project, but we kept it all realistically doable.
There was already a prototype. I knew the game would be able to finish development and release.
The prototype had also already been played by some youtubers to positive reaction - so I knew there was some interest. This can be difficult though.
There was no pressure. We did have deadlines set for release/milestones, but there wasn't a constant feeling of being forced to work on it x amount of hours a day/week. This meant everyone could easily plan around a school/work career and/or social life.

In the end we released and now are at about 50k players and have doubled the projects content in post-launch updates. Sure I had never imagined it being this popular, but there were at least signs beforehand that the game could get released and people would look at it.

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 2:32 PM

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Note: if you are a 3D artist and ship a low poly game, it's not really going to help you.

neat jackal Mar 5, 2019, 2:32 PM

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Obviously you don't have to hit all those points - some are very difficult. But try to hit at least one or two if you're asking someone to join you.

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 2:36 PM

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Working prototype would be a strong point indeed

formal spear Mar 5, 2019, 4:01 PM

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Has there ever been an instance where somebody decided to hire a bunch of artists and coders and story writers with no future plan just to see what gets created?

What are the odds of this actually being successful?

remote saffron Mar 5, 2019, 4:03 PM

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0

west sonnet Mar 5, 2019, 4:03 PM

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How do you think half the studios are created? 😜

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But these are people who know what they’re doing

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If we’re talking about startup indie. Then these are people with money and no forethought.

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Odds of success is basically 0

formal spear Mar 5, 2019, 4:05 PM

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Ahh, that’s interesting

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Good to know

remote saffron Mar 5, 2019, 4:05 PM

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if you have money and your business plan is only to hire a bunch of people and see what happens you will loose your money

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 4:39 PM

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There is a saying, it's difficult to build a dream team.
But once you have one, it's invaluable.

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If you hire a bunch of people that would be excited to work together and they complement each other, who knows.

formal spear Mar 5, 2019, 4:42 PM

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Hire a bunch of passionate people and throw all their ideas in a blender then make it work. With that terminology it shoulda be possible

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But also extremely risky

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 4:42 PM

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Can't be worst than some of the projects that I worked on where the lead designer had a background completely unrelated to the game genre of that game that he/she was working on.

ocean harbor Mar 5, 2019, 4:47 PM

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funnily enough that can work out much better than expected. For a simple reason that when you start with a team, you can see what team can realistically do and decide on gameidea/prototype from there. Instead of brewing some project where you luck key expertise.

flat gazelle Mar 5, 2019, 4:48 PM

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I'd say Embark is doing something along those lines. They have a lot of financial backing, hired a bunch of talented people and are now figuring out what to build.

dense needle Mar 5, 2019, 9:58 PM

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Looks like the question got answered. Ideally you want to build your game in stages, starting with a design doc. Complete the pre production before hiring staff. You don't want them sitting around, or making stuff that may be changed. Anything you end up changing in production will cost you money and time. The more laser focused you are. To move from one part to the next, the less money you will spend.

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 10:07 PM

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I would love to know how many games have been made without design docs

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😆

spice dagger Mar 5, 2019, 10:08 PM

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Probably plenty... successful ones, probably none.

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😃

plucky hatch Mar 5, 2019, 10:09 PM

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I wonder how much documentation they had to create Fortnite Battle Royale

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lol...

plucky hearth Mar 5, 2019, 10:09 PM

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Most folks don't bother for game jams, so like hundreds of thousands probs

fickle hatch Mar 5, 2019, 10:10 PM

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Well

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Depends on what you call a design doc

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What I see is that big projects end up having all sorts of documentation on them that doesn't strictly fall into a "game design doc" template

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Just from whatever scraps and personal experience

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The more people are involved, the more different sets of documentation (folders) are needed for each specific group. I prefer higher granularity personally (= more documents making up a folder rather than one super-document)

high raven Mar 6, 2019, 3:19 AM

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Hello, I am looking for a permanent job, I have 1 year of experience with UE4 (blueprints and C++), Is there any website where I can find job listing for programmers?

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 7:38 AM

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gentlemen if I am looking to prototype a multiplayer game and can supply all art as well as front the costs for some of the plugin we'd need... where can I find programmers to team up with and/or pay ?

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multiplayer games have a very low chance of actually making it and this turns a lot of people off, rightfully so

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that "or" doesn't really paint a nice picture of me, does it

remote saffron Mar 6, 2019, 7:46 AM

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if you get to the point where you have some of the art you can show and you demonstrate that you have a decent idea for gameplay as well, you might have a chance to get someone if your art is cool and the project looks interesting 🤷

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 7:46 AM

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I'm a fan of things you can prototype and iterate on quickly

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and I am extremely dead set on releasing things

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everything looks simplistic and will play out much like that

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so I have a feeling it won't be impressive to most 😂

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 8:03 AM

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and well @remote saffron my problem is exactly that - demonstrating... I have very little knowledge which has barely allowed me to put together my single player game so far

remote saffron Mar 6, 2019, 8:06 AM

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maybe do not make a multiplayer game then 🤔

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at this point

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 8:08 AM

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Not on my own I can't

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I already have experience working as a team, delivering products and with freelance in general - heck I posted in looking for work here

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Maybe I should specify programming knowledge

hybrid phoenix Mar 6, 2019, 8:12 AM

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So what do you do, Nitro

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What's your job in the process

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 8:13 AM

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Anything that isnt programming. See artstation.com/nitronik4ever

hybrid phoenix Mar 6, 2019, 8:13 AM

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Also, is this a paid thing or not

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 8:13 AM

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It would be

hybrid phoenix Mar 6, 2019, 8:13 AM

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Alright

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 8:14 AM

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Though I probably would not be able to pay someone as much as theyd deserve at this stage

hybrid phoenix Mar 6, 2019, 8:15 AM

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Produce a bunch of good art for the project, make a decent design doc and try and get people involved like that

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And maybe post said design doc here

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If you want opinions on it

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 8:16 AM

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It is inspired by the original Ace of Spades if you want a loose idea

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The free to play one

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Not jagex's

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:09 AM

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@echo fox
A multiplayer game that no one knows exist, doesnt have bots, a server browsers and modding tools definitely starts with a few strikes.

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 11:10 AM

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well, as I said. It demotivates people for a reason

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:10 AM

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A game like LawBreakers didn't have any of that and the game is dead, died within a year after its release.

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 11:10 AM

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lawbreakers also decided to go against market trend / not be F2P because cliffy. But your point still stands

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:11 AM

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You need to think that your game needs to survive even if it fails at first to attract a large enough audience. You need to be able to update it and bring it back.

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 11:12 AM

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just to make things clear

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I do plan on compensating whoever my programming counterpart will be

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:12 AM

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I won't get into all the whys of why LB failed. you can find that here.
http://3dsavage.com/gamedesign-breakdown-of-lawbreakers.html

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 11:12 AM

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I'm not hoping someone jumps on because of some passion or idealism related stuff

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this is essentially asking someone to come take a hike on a minefield with me

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with that outo fo the way

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hit me with all you got

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:14 AM

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I'll probably sound rude. But some of us are doing it all ourselves for the most part.
if you want to make a MP game, then you might have to do more than try to get people involved to do it for you.

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Learn coding, gameplay programming, networking, etc.
Learn Blender, modeling, texturing. Substance Designer/Painter, PBR texturing..
Rigging 3d anim..

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it depends on how much you want to make that game

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And if you don't want to make that game more than that, maybe the idea isnt all that great to begin with.

sudden island Mar 6, 2019, 11:16 AM

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that breakdown is weak, you're making claims that low gravity modes arent popular but no data to back it up

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:16 AM

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The past 20 years speak for themselves...

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 11:16 AM

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@plucky hatch You skipped over half of the conversation if you're telling me to learn how to do at least something [EDITED] 😂

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as I said

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I am a freelance

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who deals with 3D Art and Animation

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I'm just not very good at programming

sudden island Mar 6, 2019, 11:17 AM

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thats not good enough, show me objective data

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 11:17 AM

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of course I can't ask people to just do it for me

sudden island Mar 6, 2019, 11:18 AM

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if thats your conclusion as to why lawbreakers failed in the market, you're missing the big obvious thing everyone else saw

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:18 AM

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@sudden island First of all, the games that featured low gravity are rare.
We are talking of like in-game modifications of Halo. And games like Tribes, Unreal Tournament Instagib.
There isn't one best selling game that featured low gravity.

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The only 3 legitimate games that had low gravity have been UT, Tribes and LawBreakers.

sudden island Mar 6, 2019, 11:19 AM

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overwatch

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:19 AM

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tha'ts not low gravity

sudden island Mar 6, 2019, 11:19 AM

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had zero gravity mode

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or low gravity

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:19 AM

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oh is there a game mode with low grav in OW?

sudden island Mar 6, 2019, 11:20 AM

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see didnt do your research

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:20 AM

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Ive played the game, never saw it

lilac walrus Mar 6, 2019, 11:20 AM

#

Tribes has never featured low gravity

sudden island Mar 6, 2019, 11:20 AM

#

https://overwatch.fandom.com/wiki/Low_Gravity

Overwatch Wiki

Low Gravity

Low Gravity is an Arcade gamemode. This gamemode plays identically to Quick Play with the exception that everything is low gravity.

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:21 AM

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The point was low gravity it's fast-paced with or without low gravity.

lilac walrus Mar 6, 2019, 11:21 AM

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low gravity slows games down, not the converse

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 11:21 AM

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tribes had mobility

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:21 AM

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They also make games less responsive

lilac walrus Mar 6, 2019, 11:21 AM

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(Tribes has never featured it, and gravity is essential to the movement system)

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aye, much less responsive

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:22 AM

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tribes doesnt have ''low gravity'' but you are flying just like moving through low grav in lawbreakers

echo fox Mar 6, 2019, 11:22 AM

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So yeah @plucky hatch that's the trouble I'm having, the programming. Which is basically the actual "game" part 😐

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:22 AM

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call it whatever you want

lilac walrus Mar 6, 2019, 11:22 AM

#

you fall with respect to gravity as normal in Tribes

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:22 AM

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But players that were into instagib in UT are a minority of a minority

lilac walrus Mar 6, 2019, 11:22 AM

#

that downward acceleration fuels movement

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Tribes is all about ballistic arcs, more than anything else - you're never really flying

sudden island Mar 6, 2019, 11:23 AM

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My speculation is that overwatch fulfilled the market's need for exactly the type of game lawbreakers was trying to offer. I don't think it had any distinct character as well to make it feel unique, also remember gearbox's battleborn suffered the same fate.

lilac walrus Mar 6, 2019, 11:23 AM

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Battleborn was also just not very good, to be fair

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but yes, shipping in a similar timeframe to Overwatch was suicide for a lot of shooters

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:24 AM

#

LawBreakers played much better on the maps that didnt have low gravity zone, which made the game more responsive. And overall more fun to play.

#

maps like Namsan and Red Falls

sudden island Mar 6, 2019, 11:25 AM

#

thing is, that lawbreakers never even had an initial player count that was decent. 7500 for beta, lower on release

#

people werent even trying the game

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:26 AM

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LawBreakers had issues retaining players.

#

From release (summer) to winter holdiays, it sold 800,000+ copies. We've seen new players joining all the time

#

Very few stayed.
And most people hated the slow player progression and uninteresting rewards (stash boxes)

sudden island Mar 6, 2019, 11:27 AM

#

also they came out around the same time as pubg

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:27 AM

#

Even if the gameplay was decent, the fact that they added those and they sucked, it made the gameplay less relevant

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because players then focus on the end game; stash boxes

sudden island Mar 6, 2019, 11:27 AM

#

which is nexon's official analysis on why launch failed

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https://mmos.com/news/nexon-writes-entire-value-lawbreakers-blames-pubg-games-failure

MMOs.com

Nexon Writes Down Entire Value of Lawbreakers, Blames PUBG For Gam...

In Nexon's Q3, 2017 earnings report the company wrote off the entire value of Lawbreakers, which means they now value the game at $0 on their balance sheet. While Nexon didn't break down how much money they lost on the title, the Lawbreakers write-off made up a "majority of t...

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:28 AM

#

NEXON had no idea what the hell they were talking about...

#

They just thew PUBG in there as an excuse

#

They are the one that decided to invest 32 millions on a fast-paced + low grav FPS game with bad visual clarity and uninteresting art style.

#

They certainly didnt study the market before thinking... oh let's put 32 millions on LB

#

should be a billion dollars franchise

sudden island Mar 6, 2019, 11:30 AM

#

they probably did, just timing of announcements came after that analysis

#

nexon have teams of people dedicated to doing this analysis, theyre a public company they are obligated to do so

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:33 AM

#

NEXON is the same company that was responsible for the failure of multiple FPS games such as LawBreakers, Dirty Bomb (splash damage left them), Ghost in the Shell, etc. They have no idea what they are doing...

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Their strategy is one of those games at some point will work and become their new cow.

#

That's how they work lolll...

sudden island Mar 6, 2019, 11:34 AM

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not arguing anymore you dont know what ur talking about

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:34 AM

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Well, that's not coming from my mouth but from their CEO himself.

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They try to make games that will last for a decade.

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And LawBreakers needed approx 1 full year after release to get the gameplay into the right place

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And they shut it down way before that

flat gazelle Mar 6, 2019, 11:37 AM

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If only they had had you on their analyst team to save them.

#

You could have namedropped them into wisdom

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:39 AM

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@flat gazelle
Oh they don't want me. Their guests during the LawBreakers Livestream were prohibited by contract to mention my gamertag.

lilac walrus Mar 6, 2019, 11:39 AM

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lol

flat gazelle Mar 6, 2019, 11:39 AM

#

xD

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 11:39 AM

#

😉

#

We can just now sit down and watch how many FPS games they will continue to burn in a near future.

#

Brace yourselves, the smoke is coming.

#

@sudden island Do you have data on how many players actually play the Low Gravity mode of Overwatch?

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And was the Low Gravity mode added around the release of Lawbreakers or after?

flat gazelle Mar 6, 2019, 11:49 AM

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A few months before

plucky hatch Mar 6, 2019, 12:24 PM

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Thank you.

inland anvil Mar 9, 2019, 10:31 PM

#

Hey, How are you? I hope the everything is going well for you guys.

I just want to reach out to you guys because I was hoping to talk to you guys about some advice and see what I can do moving forward with my career.

I am not sure if you are aware of my school's (Art Institute of Hollywood) current situation or not but it has closed on the students 3 weeks away from the finals.I had to deal with these past 3 months with rumors but no one was able to give a for sure. Now on Wednesday they gave us the heads up that after Friday(03/08/19) was the schools last day and I had 3 days to get all my schools document and try to "graduate" early since i was schedule to graduate in June. At the current moment, I am not sure what my plans are moving forward since everything is moving so fast but I can tell you that I am looking to see if I will be able to transfer and get loan disclosure on some of my student loans. I am also not sure if the paper i sent in are allowing me to graduate but I have been preparing multiple routes.

Link to an news link talking about it : https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Art-Institute-California-Hollywood-Closing-506900751.html

You can also just search up, Art Institute, Hollywood, closing . then you'll see multiple links talking about it.

Overall, I am aware there is nothing you can help with but I am just here to ask if you would be able to either help me critique my portfolio or resume in some way so I can apply to companies as a Game/Level Designer. Anything that you have the time to spare to assist me is greatly appreciated. I really don't have a solid plan of action left to do besides to wait to see my current status of graduation to see if i do indeed graduate but I would like to start getting options open and I would like to start applying.

Website: https://renehernandezayerdis.weebly.com/

Overall, I want to say thank you for this opportunity you have given me and I want to say thank you for working with me

NBC New York

Art Institute Closes Leaving Students Frustrated

The Art Institute of California in North Hollywood closed Friday among student confusion who found out via email.

Rene

In the industry, all we want to do is create games. I'm a strong believer of the fact that working with people you know can make fun games, but when working with people who are your friends.....Now...

#

📎 HernandezRene_Resume.pdf

digital gate Mar 10, 2019, 12:36 AM

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I'll give your links a quick look - that's rough news

west sonnet Mar 10, 2019, 12:51 AM

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Everything is good except the Get In Touch blurbs

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“Hello, so I see that you came here to reach out to me. I appreciate it. i really do because more than half of the time in our industry to get the first step, it is who you know rather than what you know. Then it is the what you know haha. Just put down your information over there in the boxes and I will get to you when I have the chance to.”

#

“In the industry, all we want to do is create games. I'm a strong believer of the fact that working with people you know can make fun games, but when working with people who are your friends.....Now that is a different story. Let's get in touch and create games that will become memories for others. “

#

There’s spelling errors and it’s far too informal. It’s giving an impression that you’re a kid with no professional experience.

digital gate Mar 10, 2019, 1:22 AM

#

Your text at the bottom seems confused even though I know what you mean...

Aside from that, I'm not a designer (programmer) so I can't speak for what designers look for - However you do mention that you used BP to achieve your design. I'd be interested in seeing some of the grpahs here of you want to use BP as a skill you possess.

Good amount of content

#

Agree with hightide

pallid quail Mar 10, 2019, 5:31 AM

#

hello,im a freelance 3d artist currently working on several projects,but my dream is to get in a studio and work with a team.So im thinking about getting a bootcamp to further develop my skills and hopefully nail a job in the industry.The bootcamp is at Game Art Institute,i heard a lot of positive stuff,if somebody has had any experience there please share.Thanks

inland anvil Mar 10, 2019, 5:39 AM

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@digital gate @west sonnet yo thank you so much. I really do appreciate the help and support. I'll reach out if I have anymore questions.

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 9:32 AM

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@inland anvil Don't give me a resume, give me a portfolio

inland anvil Mar 10, 2019, 9:32 AM

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@sudden island there's my website

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 9:33 AM

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http://noonan.design/

Noonan.Design

Sean Noonan

Game and Level Design Portfolio of Sean Noonan - Noonan.Design

The portfolio of game and level designer, Sean Noonan. Featured work includes Star Citizen, Far Cry Primal, Far Cry 4, Watch_Dogs and Jack B. Nimble.

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the way this portfolio is done is a great model

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 11:29 AM

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Why?

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There aren't any design documents or actual breakdown of those games or levels

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The only difference is you got an image gallery with the games that he worked on and then he explained a bit more in details what he did.

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That still isn't a portfolio.

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📎 unknown.png

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That's a resume.

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That doesn't help you to get into the head of the designer.

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What we should be able to find in such Game/Level Design Portfolios, if they took the time to actually create one which is quite time consuming to be honest, are...

Game design
• High-Level design document for a game (powerpoint)
• Game design documents (word document)

Level design
• High-Level design document for a game level (powerpoint)
• Level design documents (word document)

The High-level design document is a powerpoint presentation to first sell the idea internall to the team or people higher up in the company, etc.
The design documents explain in details either the game (controls, camera, gameplay, systems, pickups, etc.) or the game levels (topdown view of the map layout, player path, objectives, enemy placement, AI patrol, enemy waves, etc.).

In addition, it could also be interesting to see videos of those game controls, gameplay mechanics, puzzles, combat system, playthrough of those game level, etc. in action. It could be nice to see the designer writing a breakdown of a game or game levels to see what he feels worked, needs to be updated or removed.

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 12:44 PM

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@plucky hatch all of that stuff is usually under nda

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 12:46 PM

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Which is why I wrote earlier that it was time consuming, because I was implying that the designer would have to manually re-do the work, presented a bit differently. As someone who is an outsider breaking down the design and turning it into a level design document.

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I'm currently redoing a level design document for a game level that i did years ago to actually have an example of a LDD on my educational website.

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Examples of images that a Level Design Document could feature.

📎 unknown.png

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 12:53 PM

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thats why they have design tests

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 12:53 PM

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The quality of those design documents differ from one person to another, one team to another and one company to another.
I've seen some really sexy documents and some really ugly ones.

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Personally, I really like to have a 3D map layout done in 3DS max, Maya, Modo and Blender that contains different layers of information.
It's a very powerful way to show off a game level to a team. They can just open the file and move through the level, turn On/Off different layers and see all they need to know (covers, enemies, pickups, diaglogs, special enemy animations, etc.).

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 1:03 PM

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yeah you can do that in an editor too

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 1:18 PM

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Wouldn't that be very cumbersome to do in UE4? Turning brushes into meshes, etc. Using UE4 - Material Editor to add colors, etc.

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maybe even go back and forth between the 3d app and UE4.

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The level designer could do it all in the 3D app and export the graybox to UE4. Since it's a mesh it takes no time to load, it can be updated automatically.

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There is also the Unreal Bridge now, at least for Modo.
https://youtu.be/0gxXkPryQYk

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 1:22 PM

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so imo it makes sense when ue4's shipping geo tools are kinda trashy for this which is where maya/max's tools come in. But

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when I Got mesh tool by mary nate

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that gave me what i needed to build levels inside ue4

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 1:24 PM

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The UE4 Geometry tools are quite nice for beginners. Especially useful for users who are new and have never used a 3D app before. It's a good intro to 3D and making game levels. They are even used by the LDs at Epic. But I think those who are interested in increasing their workspeed would probably use a 3D application instead.

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 1:25 PM

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or just get mesh tool which gives you that functionality inside the editor

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 1:26 PM

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Personally, when I re-created Vortex Rikkers from Unreal 1998 in UE4, when I started to get to the end of the level, the brushes took a long time to build and started to randomly crash whenever I was trying to edit brushes. I've never used those brush tools again.

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 1:26 PM

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yeah brushes are terrible performance wise

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 1:27 PM

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I was baffled to see that UE4 loaded my mesh instantly when I imported a level from Modo.

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No ''build geometry'' time.

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 1:27 PM

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well yeah its a static mesh

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 1:27 PM

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So I was working with two monitors, Modo on one side and UE4 on the other.

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 1:27 PM

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not geometry

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 1:28 PM

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I understand that people are worried about ''testing''. Like, most people assume it's just faster to build + test in UE4, but really... it's not.

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 1:29 PM

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i mean in your case if you know modo and use it super fast, then yeah it's probably your ideal process. but also a lot of level design isn't just about building geometry

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 1:30 PM

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Good to know
https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-us/Engine/Content/AutoReImport

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Where are you getting at with "level design isn't just about building geometry"?

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 1:33 PM

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encounter design, level logic, in some cases enemy design

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 1:34 PM

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Yeah, all this will certainly be done in UE4 with Blueprint or C++.

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 1:36 PM

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also having talked to Sean, and seeing what some level design teams from other studios do, often they end up working on other areas of the game

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 1:36 PM

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Sean?

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Do you mean working on levels that other LDs have worked on?

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Or do you mean other things like weapon balance, etc. Help game designers with their other tasks.

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 1:37 PM

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sorry was referring to noonan.design, Sean noonan is his name

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 1:38 PM

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Ohh! i get it. Thx

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When I was working at Gameloft, game designers would mainly work on the game design, of course, but level designers and technical game designers were also thrown into the mix. In pre-production by example, everyone was helping to design the game. After if LD or TGDs had free time they could get involved with GD tasks.

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 1:40 PM

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heh my teacher was a technical games analyst at gameloft

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his name is joel

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 1:52 PM

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Oooh, are you from Australia?

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 1:56 PM

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yes

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 1:56 PM

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I know that Technical Game Analyst is a new role. It didnt exist when I was working at Gameloft. I was one of the guys responsible for creating the first LD and TGD roles there. Gameloft only had Game Designers and Integrators back then. Over time, they added Game Economy Designer, UX Designer and other roles.

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If we just look at this Discord Server, most people have no idea what Game Design is. Now imagine all those new roles lol...

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A bit similar to the Product designer/UX-UI Designer problem.

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Long term, the problem we get is that Game Economy, UX Design, Technical Game Design are actually sub-branches of Game Designer. So Game Designers filling those specific sub-roles.

But as time passes, some people will get into those jobs as if they were separate from Game Design.

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 2:03 PM

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well yeah

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 2:03 PM

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And now, companies try to patch things up with focus groups and player feedback

sudden island Mar 10, 2019, 2:04 PM

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what do you mean

plucky hatch Mar 10, 2019, 2:06 PM

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I once joined a project that had a lot of parkour element and was using First person perspective. The jump button was assigned to A which is a pain to use, since that requires you the user to turn and face the thing that you want to climb over, remove your thumb from the thumbstick, then press A, then put your thumb back on the thumbstick and then you can continue to move the camera around.

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Or imagine yourself playing Bioshock have having to press A to pickup every single individual little prop in the environment.
If you cannot use a bumper instead, it will become really annoying quickly.

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Rage kind of solved that by using Groups of Items that would be automatically picked up.

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@sudden island But the jump button was assigned to A, why?
Focus group told them it was the right thing to do. Players...

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I asked the designers around and they all acknowledge it was bad. But no one was allowed to modify it and improve because of politics.

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Fortunately, it got fixed at some point during the production. However, it shows you how much we aren't trusting our designers enough and how they don't have much creative freedom and power to modify and improve the game quickly.

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I worked at a place where the Producer had more creative power than the Lead Designer. Which I assume is actually fairly common.

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And the producer wasn't a designer at all...

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And i've seen it with multiple projects, multiple producers.

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And if the producer happens to be a former designer, he might go on a power trip.

steel creek Mar 10, 2019, 2:54 PM

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Any chance we can get back to Career advice

hexed hawk Mar 11, 2019, 2:27 AM

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Hello y'all

gray mason Mar 11, 2019, 3:44 PM

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Hello all! not entirely sure if this is the right thread, but I’m reaching out to different communities to get some opinions on a youtube devlog project I’m committed to starting next week. This will be a channel that shows the perspective of a novice solo dev working his way up and showing his progress along the way with UE4, Blender and motivation. I have made a total of 4 simple UE4 projects over the scope of a 1.5 years and am nowhere near satisfied with my current level of knowledge and productivity. So my main goal for this project is to foster self accountability by setting daily goals and completing tasks. I want to post 2 different types of videos each week. 1) a devlog that shows what I did, and whether or not I met my goals each day. 2) tutorials and advice to challenge myself and others to learn things I have find to be difficult while starting out. I will try it regardless for myself, but do you all think this will be something others will find useful? Is this too ambitious or a good way to foster commitment? Any advice would be appreciated, as I really want to help myself and my fellow beginners learn and be productive!

fickle hatch Mar 11, 2019, 9:12 PM

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@gray mason it's a pretty good exercise in commitment and willpower, make sure you always write a post each day though

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Even if you didn't end up doing anything

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That would be the advice for maintaining commitment

harsh brook Mar 11, 2019, 11:47 PM

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Hey guys got laid off today, but have a job lined up in May. However, I was counting on paychecks there to pay the way to the new job. Wondering if I should look for freelance work, look for a crap job, or focus on growing my skills and put my initial rent on credit. Thinking I’ll more than likely just have to put my initial expenses on credit

west sonnet Mar 11, 2019, 11:59 PM

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Sure, if you've already established yourself as a freelancer on the side or have a number of contacts. Otherwise, it's not worth building up as a freelancer in such a short notice. You won't believe how many clients will try to make you do a $500+ job for $10

digital gate Mar 11, 2019, 11:59 PM

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If you can scoop freelance up and won't breach, that'd be a solid move IMO. Otherwise grow skills and take the hit.

harsh brook Mar 11, 2019, 11:59 PM

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I shall look for the freelance but not make it a priority then thanks guys

barren lotus Mar 12, 2019, 12:02 AM

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Apply for unemployment benefits

harsh brook Mar 12, 2019, 12:16 AM

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oh didn't think about that I'm pretty young so I'v never done it will look into it though thanks

balmy thunder Mar 12, 2019, 12:43 AM

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Um... So I've never worked in the industry and this is my first CV and Portfolio. Do I have any chances? Any feedback would be MUCH appreciated, especially regarding the portfolio. (the CV itself in its current state looks like a users manual for a washing machine I know)

📎 CV_and_Portfolio.pdf

fickle hatch Mar 12, 2019, 12:43 AM

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Do you have a photo taken during the day

balmy thunder Mar 12, 2019, 12:44 AM

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Yeah, I know, it's mostly a placeholder atm

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Photos are hard for me...

fickle hatch Mar 12, 2019, 12:44 AM

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Nothing specifically wrong with it, but it looks a bit more aggressive than it should for a CV 😄

balmy thunder Mar 12, 2019, 12:45 AM

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Lol, I picked it exactly because I thought I'm kind of smiling there

west sonnet Mar 12, 2019, 12:45 AM

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You don't need a mug shot for a cv 😛

balmy thunder Mar 12, 2019, 12:46 AM

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So it's better to remove the photo?

fickle hatch Mar 12, 2019, 12:47 AM

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I think it's just better to have a photo done in daylight conditions

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More like a passport photo, no headphones or glasses, casual clothing, scattered lighting

west sonnet Mar 12, 2019, 12:48 AM

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Lets see. The alternating text colour is nice. It draws the eyes. Don't use a rating system. That's completely subjective and doesn't tell me anything about your qualifications

balmy thunder Mar 12, 2019, 12:49 AM

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@fickle hatch Got it! Thanks!

@west sonnet Yeah, I hate it too, but I just saw lots of people doing it. Good to know I can remove it and free up some space for something more useful.

west sonnet Mar 12, 2019, 12:49 AM

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2010-13, 2014 (left due to job opportunity
and low quality of education). Don't use this. Just put the date you left

balmy thunder Mar 12, 2019, 12:50 AM

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Gotcha

harsh brook Mar 12, 2019, 12:51 AM

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you need to target your resume

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for AAA at least for indie you might be ok

west sonnet Mar 12, 2019, 12:51 AM

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I would suggest placing your portfolio in artstation, sketchfab, hell even youtube and link it in your cv. Having a "quick look" in the form of a pdf is nice though

balmy thunder Mar 12, 2019, 12:52 AM

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Is it a good idea to include some kind of a short "about"? where I'd explain what I actually am and stuff. Like 3-4 sentences

west sonnet Mar 12, 2019, 12:52 AM

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but yes, you need to define your target role

harsh brook Mar 12, 2019, 12:52 AM

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no

west sonnet Mar 12, 2019, 12:52 AM

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No, put that in your cover letter

fickle hatch Mar 12, 2019, 12:52 AM

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What can you possibly tell about yourself in 1 sentence?

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You get like, 1 sentence of attention from the HR person at best

balmy thunder Mar 12, 2019, 12:52 AM

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Got it...

fickle hatch Mar 12, 2019, 12:52 AM

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And a glancing look over other things

harsh brook Mar 12, 2019, 12:53 AM

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think about it from HR: They look at skills, if they like those they look at your portfolio, if they like that they forward it to the team, if the team likes it you get an interview

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don't make their job hard and target your resume for the role you want and you'll be fine

west sonnet Mar 12, 2019, 12:54 AM

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Break the rest up in categories. Software proficiency, Programming language proficiency, Qualifications, and Work Experience

balmy thunder Mar 12, 2019, 12:55 AM

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Yeah, the role... It's kind of hard. I mean I want to start as a gamedesigner (cuz I obviously have an artistic background and I do believe I'd accomplish a lot in that position), but would it be actually possible to find a job as a gamedesigner without an actual experience and with this kind of portfolio?

west sonnet Mar 12, 2019, 12:55 AM

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View the resume in HR's eyes as CJ said. They need relevant information that is quick, concise, and easy to read

harsh brook Mar 12, 2019, 12:55 AM

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realistically there is only one way to find out and thats to apply

west sonnet Mar 12, 2019, 12:57 AM

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But you need to specialize. Make games in your spare time, do game jams, anything that'll show that you can walk the talk.

harsh brook Mar 12, 2019, 12:58 AM

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if you want to enter AAA then HighTide is right, you must have a passion for your field otherwise you'll never make it not just because you need a passion but because you are competing against people who love that job

balmy thunder Mar 12, 2019, 12:59 AM

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That's a lot of useful feedback. Thank you guys a lot.

plucky hatch Mar 12, 2019, 1:06 AM

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Hi guys I'm not sure what to do. I saved up 3k from manual work and want to move out I am 23 more than old enough. I don't mind doing unskilled jobs whatever gives money. I'm wondering if it's possible. I get rejected from a lot of places. Also at the moment I am obsessed with this game I am making (75% done) which I can add to my portfolio, afterwards I will take a break from this for a while. On top of everything I also want a life.

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So looking for as much life as career advice

west sonnet Mar 12, 2019, 1:12 AM

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You need to ask a question to get an answer 😛

plucky hatch Mar 12, 2019, 1:18 AM

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Well just not sure on my next move tbh

fickle hatch Mar 12, 2019, 1:26 AM

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75% done huh

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The last 20% of work take the most time 😄

digital gate Mar 12, 2019, 3:12 AM

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Don't move out and try to make money via self publishing

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Beyond that, you might be setting yourself up for a long grind - that 3k will go quickly most likely and you're going to be less able to save.

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Is it possible? Yeah. Just do due diligence and be wary of 6 mo later

harsh brook Mar 12, 2019, 5:55 AM

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Make something you are proud of.

solid kelp Mar 12, 2019, 7:48 AM

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Good morning guys! I'm a software developer that Works with Angular and Laravel, mainly as front end and scripting part of web/mobile application. Since 5 months i started to use Unreal Engine 4, i'm doing a lot of stuff with blueprints since bp makes life easier. I'm constantly everyday developing my Own FPS arena, I'm 22 years old and i found some work here in Malta where company are searching people familiar with UE4 and C++, In any case i would be ready to move in another country again, since I'm outside of my original country.
Do you have any tips from where to start with C++? I bought some courses on Udemy, and yes i completed them, but i feel like i have to understand before the basic of the language, even if i'm familiar with other Programming language. And last question is, what's the country with more company in game development?
Thanks to all!

plucky hatch Mar 12, 2019, 11:23 AM

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@balmy thunder nice CV imo but you have 'two' instead of 'to' at the bottom!

plucky hatch Mar 12, 2019, 9:50 PM

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It's cool to see that you guys are working on game projects, but often what will get you a job is ''who you know''.

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Surround yourself with industry vets, seniors, leads, producers, recruiters and directors.

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And build solid long lasting relationships.

iron cave Mar 12, 2019, 9:56 PM

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My 6 years of studying I never managed to interact with Industry vets. And it's a shame that even trying to get a QA tester job seems to be the hardest, just to get a foot in the door.

flat gazelle Mar 12, 2019, 9:57 PM

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Plenty of vets in here 😃

iron cave Mar 12, 2019, 10:03 PM

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So question, how does one who has studied a course related to designing and making games, find a way to get into the industry? I am trying to improve my portfolios. But unfortunately I still haven't decided on a path I want to go for, a full one. It's been boggling me to decide what I believe I'd be good at, so I could give my all, I've been hammering job applications mostly related to QA's or hopefully some internships just to get some kind of experience working in the industry or to potentially get a foot in the door to work at said industry.

plucky hatch Mar 12, 2019, 10:05 PM

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When I started my career in the video games industry, I was all about working hard, investing time and efforts into the company and not playing games (being nice, making a lot of friends, licking ass etc.). My design director and my lead level designer (for the studio) trusted me and selected me to work on some of the biggest projects we had back then. People like me for my work and I had their back. However, I was never hanging out with them, going out for a beer, etc. And then I stepped away from working in big studios, went back to college (twice) to get into 3D and programming and now I'm trying to get a job in Montreal and I must have 30+ applications that are dead ends. Doesn't matter if I have 5+ years of experience in the industry, doesn't matter if I'm specialized in multiplayer or FPS games, I've seen people getting hired that don't even play those games. Just today, a friend of mine who is a production manager told me to send him my stuff and he would send it to the recruiting team of his studio. That's what ''who you know'' does.

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If you look at LawBreakers, they hired several freelancers and many of them knew each other from Discord ,Polycount, etc.

iron cave Mar 12, 2019, 10:08 PM

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Ah. I don't usually know where to look, believe I am one of those very shy, close and hidden individuals who are scared of trying to show work to those big professionals.

plucky hatch Mar 12, 2019, 10:09 PM

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It is definitely not obvious, but there are key people in every area that could help you connect with other devs. And there are various circles on the web (Discord, Polycount, Reddit, etc.). Also, after games get released, sometimes the devs go on Discord and it can be an opportunity to connect with devs of your favorite games.

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There are Discord servers for UE4, Unity, level design, VFX, etc.

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I know here in Montreal, there are several game jams every now and then.

iron cave Mar 12, 2019, 10:12 PM

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The major ones I am currently in is FL Studio, 3D Modelling, this one and the Contingency Group ( Who are making that fan-based Halo game on PC.)I've been looking at doing some group projects too, unfortunately I've got a bad mindset where I find my work to never be good enough and don't wish to disappoint.

plucky hatch Mar 12, 2019, 10:13 PM

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What kind of jobs are you looking for?

iron cave Mar 12, 2019, 10:16 PM

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Realistically mostly applied for Internships or QA's, internships mostly being anything related to 3D design, environments or potentially animation to get better grips with it. Those are the areas I wouldn't mind doing as a full time job, but because I've been exploring all sorts of departments I am a jack of all trades but a master of none, which doesn't help. So I spend my spare time to try and improve one of my skills to be more useful.

plucky hatch Mar 12, 2019, 10:19 PM

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This is a hot topic, because you'll find valid arguments on both sides of the spectrum, but I think you should avoid targeting Quality & Assurance jobs, unless it can get you a job at a big studio where you can build contact. And if you have already a strong porfolio, this could be an opportunity in gold. If you do not have a strong portfolio in anything and are looking for a QA job, I would say find a different job entirely. QA doesn't pay much and it's very rare that people will move from QA to any other position.

It could be wiser to just pick up a random side job that...

Pays well
Gives you time to work on your portfolio.

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And I know several devs that started in QA and became designers or artists. But it's rare.

iron cave Mar 12, 2019, 10:24 PM

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I thought of that as well, but problem is that because I've been doing a lot of work and effort to learn all sorts to find a basic job. ( Mostly looked at Retail, as I love talking to people in a sense and handle customers.) I've done extra work to gain things like a NVQ and such. But even if it's just a Part time job, it would be enough to keep me going while I could still improve my work, even if most of my stuff is student based. But finding work at the current is difficult, and due to the lack of a decent Portfolio I am struggling to find any proper opportunities related to game design.

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Although it be great to build some kind of connection with the vets, mostly to ask for possible feedback and ideas on how to improve and gain knowledge from a different perspective.

barren lotus Mar 13, 2019, 12:26 AM

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Why not make your own opportunity? With Epic Games store, Steam Direct, and Itch.io it's easier than ever before to make a game and get it in the hands of people with some effort. Just make something and put it out there, get feedback and iterate. Do it while you're working a day job too, the dev who made Gunpoint was working as a journalist during the day and only invested $30 and 3 years into development.

If you want to be a designer breaking in as Q&A is kind of dated and coming form a point of weakness nowadays when there's so many tools, game jams, and opportunities to create something from the get-go if you want be a designer. Chet Faliszek gave a great talk at Eurogamer about giving yourself a job in the game industry, it's available on YouTube so give that a watch.

plucky hatch Mar 13, 2019, 2:02 AM

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I do think that it is a valid suggestion to make your own games, however I also think that only an extreme minority would have the interest and/or capability to do it.

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Unfortunately, I don`t have statistics to back it up, but I think most people have only very specific interests such as game design or level design or props modeling or 3D animation or VFX or programming. And very few have multiple interests. And even fewer would like it all enough to make their own games. Plus, how many could also get good enough in several areas to make indie games that would be interesting enough? I can't answer that.

fickle hatch Mar 13, 2019, 2:40 AM

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"Only invested $30" huh 😄

barren lotus Mar 13, 2019, 4:22 AM

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The good ol days when GameMaker wasn't $100+

tacit heath Mar 13, 2019, 9:00 AM

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mhh I already invested probably ten times this amount in courses, books etc. xD

shadow kelp Mar 13, 2019, 9:30 AM

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You don't need to make games. Especially if you're interested in AAA, just focus on one area and develop plugins/assets or whatever for the UE marketplace

iron cave Mar 13, 2019, 11:49 AM

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I did try to go down the route of doing stuff myself, but I don't know, I've been trying to hammer stuff out but because I never feel like it's good enough I've been refrained from, posting stuff or updating my very old, dusty portfolio. And plus since money is pretty much 80% of my current issue, I can't spend months on end developing stuff anymore like I used too when I was studying, since I had a safety net, which I don't have any more.

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I'll have to see what I can do when I am not going berserk over my country move.

lilac walrus Mar 13, 2019, 12:17 PM

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this is of course assuming the UK games industry survives much longer, all things considered D:

iron cave Mar 13, 2019, 1:06 PM

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Well with how Britain is going and with Brexit, I am moving back to Germany, so hopefully I can find something in Germany, even if I am lucky to find a internship. If there is any.

lilac walrus Mar 13, 2019, 1:12 PM

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I'm already a Brefugee in Germany

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but if this thing falls through, you'll want to be a resident here by the 29th realistically

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once that plug is pulled your residential rights anywhere go with it

iron cave Mar 13, 2019, 1:20 PM

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Aye, unfortunately I also heard that what ever Germany is planning, a certain article or law will cost my my entire education. Since they may not accept my degrees and certificates from England, boy that would be a waste of 22 years of studying.

remote saffron Mar 13, 2019, 1:25 PM

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who cares about degrees and certificates in the first place

lilac walrus Mar 13, 2019, 1:26 PM

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I don't have 'em, hehe

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but it's up to employers to accept them, so that's not so much an issue

ashen lynx Mar 13, 2019, 1:29 PM

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You can still get your CoCs/diplomas approved on individual basis, even if there is no required legislation for automatic recognition.

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Works practically with any combination of issuing/recognizing state.

iron cave Mar 13, 2019, 1:41 PM

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I mean everywhere I went to apply for work I need to have a decent enough education to get the job. And I am aware that "Degrees don't usually show your skills" but unfortunately they won't look at my CV or portfolio if I don't have some kind of degree in the related field.

lilac walrus Mar 13, 2019, 1:50 PM

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if you're looking at development studios it's rare for them to actually require a degree

narrow vigil Mar 13, 2019, 2:10 PM

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A lot only that they prefer someone with a degree

lilac walrus Mar 13, 2019, 2:12 PM

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not really

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given the quality of most game degrees, they're not looked at much at all

west sonnet Mar 13, 2019, 2:14 PM

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I’ve honestly never met an hiring manager that cares about a degree in the game industry.

shadow kelp Mar 13, 2019, 2:16 PM

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for programming, a compsci related degree is a plus, but not a requirement

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a degree is often a requirement for a visa though

ashen lynx Mar 13, 2019, 2:19 PM

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given the quality of most game degrees, they're not looked at much at all Yeah. I don't have faith in game-dev specific education. Most of it is quite formalized.

plucky hatch Mar 13, 2019, 4:02 PM

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@west sonnet
"I’ve honestly never met an hiring manager that cares about a degree in the game industry."
And I've seen recruiters sit down with me, looked at my portfolio and whispered, "Don't take it wrong mate but I have no idea what I'm looking at.'' 😂

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But they have to start somewhere :P.

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Degrees are nice to have. But they won't get you a job at all.

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However, they do have a certain value.

lilac walrus Mar 13, 2019, 4:04 PM

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Recruiters are generally hopeless unless they games industry dedicated

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Hiring Managers on the other hand are not recruiters

plucky hatch Mar 13, 2019, 4:05 PM

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Well, the guy Im talking about was focused on 3D animators and he is now lead at a big AAA company so, he probably learned a few things during his journey as a recruiter.

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I wonder how many recruiters are former artists, designers, programmers or else.

iron cave Mar 13, 2019, 11:03 PM

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So... My BA Pass Degree in Video Game Development is just a basic plus, so the portfolio is the main selling point for visual presentation?

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If that’s the case... I don’t know why I’ve been so worried. Lol

harsh brook Mar 14, 2019, 12:29 AM

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portfolio gets you a job

flat gazelle Mar 14, 2019, 6:35 AM

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Portfolio gets you an interview. No more, no less

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 7:13 AM

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How exactly do people who create music for games make a portfolio though? Then again.... I don’t ever see a job related close to it other than sound design.

shadow kelp Mar 14, 2019, 7:36 AM

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I'm not an expert, but I imagine they make music for games 😃

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 7:44 AM

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Well I know that, I got a list of music which only is presented in very small projects that I did with my teammates back in my University, and one or two soundtracks from the game jams I entered. But still don’t know how I’d show it in a professional level other than having a market place product I am selling and a soundcloud.

shadow kelp Mar 14, 2019, 7:51 AM

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you wouldn't be expected to show it in a professional level

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although I imagine just dubbing it over an existing game scene would be worth demonstrating

west sonnet Mar 14, 2019, 7:52 AM

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You just need it to be displayed somewhere

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 7:54 AM

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Right now it’s displayed on the epic market place and soundcloud, for now.

west sonnet Mar 14, 2019, 7:56 AM

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Grab a website, hell uploaded to YouTube or other media sharing platform. An employer cannot assess you if you cannot provide an quick and easy platform to view your work. You got a few seconds of their attention at best. Don’t make them hunt for your content

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 7:58 AM

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Any specific tags for a YouTube video? Since usually just uploading it to YouTube won’t do it. Those tags seem to put the video where you want it most.

shadow kelp Mar 14, 2019, 7:59 AM

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you're not going to get job leads from youtube, just use it as a hosting platform

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it's just a safe bet as a means to make your content available to someone

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my personal website is blocked by our studio firewall 😢 reminds me I should unblock it some time 😛

west sonnet Mar 14, 2019, 8:00 AM

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I’m fairly sure mine is too. Atlas 😜

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 8:10 AM

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Ah I can’t make websites, coding is alien to me, so I’ll have to use those free website makers. But again I’ll be stumped as to how one would even find a job related to the field, unless your some famous artist like Frank Klepacki as a example, I wouldn’t know what to do other then having my stuff on SC, some videos on YouTube, my art station and the unreal market place. Lel.

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I could technically go to one of the studios personally, sneak to the front desk like MGS and put my mix tape into the “Must read” slot with a note for the studio head and hopefully get a deal. XD

west sonnet Mar 14, 2019, 8:22 AM

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Or go to their website and visit the career page

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And apply

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 8:26 AM

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But what is “Music” under career wise? All I ever see is audio or fx.

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Unless audio IS part of music, then I’ve been blind lol.

shadow kelp Mar 14, 2019, 8:29 AM

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I believe the actual music composition is usually outsourced

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 8:30 AM

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Elaborate please?

lilac walrus Mar 14, 2019, 8:31 AM

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outsourcing music is rare

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having contractors do it is not unusual though

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not many studios have permanent in-house musicians

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 8:32 AM

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So basically getting work as a game music.... guy, thingy, is going to be super tough?

lilac walrus Mar 14, 2019, 8:33 AM

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it's one of the hardest disciplines to really get into

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 8:33 AM

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Well... shoot.

lilac walrus Mar 14, 2019, 8:34 AM

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a game might need 20 engineers, but they'll likely only ever need one musician (and for a short period of time)

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 8:34 AM

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Guess that might explain why I was the only guy in my entire class that focused on music.

lilac walrus Mar 14, 2019, 8:34 AM

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if you're good at it, particularly dealing with the complexities that dynamic content introduce, you'll be able to find work

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but it will take time before you're likely to make reliable money

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you'll probably also want to work in other media, as and when contracts are available

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 8:35 AM

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I never really got any feedback, not even when people bought my music pack... sooo I don’t know if that’s good or bad if no one commented.

lilac walrus Mar 14, 2019, 8:36 AM

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have you tried your hand doing music for people's game jam games, maybe?

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that might be an interesting exercise

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 8:38 AM

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I did, including during projects and free commission for friends just to get some footing. I was told it was good, but.... I am the type of guy that dislikes his stuff regardless if people like it. But that’s all from friends, teachers and students including during game jam. Issue is, no one commented when they bought my pack. I don’t know if that’s a heft negative input since they didn’t give any good or bad feedback.

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Nor can I improve if no one speaks out, not even from a teacher WHO made music for games for years.

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I got a thumbs up from him, but never got proper feedback.

lilac walrus Mar 14, 2019, 8:40 AM

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at the end of the day, you're not the one who needs to like your stuff - pleasing the client is what's good for business, hehe

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 8:42 AM

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True, true. I think I am just that guy that cringes when he hears his own stuff, and hard to believe people saying “Hey it’s not bad”. I am a odd fellow. I suppose then I just look for small indie developers who’d need music in the mean time then to build some rep and notice?

lilac walrus Mar 14, 2019, 8:43 AM

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yeah, just do what you can really

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 8:43 AM

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And what would be better, to do it for free for now to build that trust and rep, or ask for a payment? I dislike disappointing people so I tend to avoid doing payment stuff.

lilac walrus Mar 14, 2019, 8:43 AM

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breaking into music is hard, but so long as you keep doing it, you'll get somewhere

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as for payment, well, you need to be the best judge of that

remote saffron Mar 14, 2019, 8:44 AM

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I think it must be super hard with music
at least we got a tons of mails from composers looking for work

lilac walrus Mar 14, 2019, 8:44 AM

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but if a game is more or less ready to ship, you can likely work out if it's going to make money or not

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released game credits are likely super valuable for game music

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 8:49 AM

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I can’t tell really in relation to asking about payments, again since no one spoke out negatively, YET. I placed a pack on unreal for about 4.99 for like 10 odd songs for the sci-fi genre.

iron cave Mar 14, 2019, 9:10 AM

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I might look at more game jams once I’ve fully settled in Germany, see if anyone needs help.

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Otherwise I might go and do environments.

ashen lynx Mar 14, 2019, 9:11 AM

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I just thought how cool would it be if you send your application with attached portfolio, recorded on vinyl, by conventional mail. 🤔

lilac walrus Mar 14, 2019, 9:16 AM

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it would be neat, but chances are it wouldn't get listened to

dusk raptor Mar 14, 2019, 9:16 AM

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you could send one of these little portative vinyl stations

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https://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/xl/record-runner-vw-bus-portable-self-contained-vinyl-record-player-xl.jpg

ashen lynx Mar 14, 2019, 9:18 AM

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cmon, I mean I surely would have procured something to play the records, If i'd receive composer's folio on vinyl.

dusk raptor Mar 14, 2019, 9:18 AM

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would be a sign of fine taste too

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I've got a cousin who's the bassist of a rising metal band

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they always do limited runs of their albums on... tapes

tacit heath Mar 14, 2019, 9:26 AM

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I think it would be smart to have a second expertise. if you like music, you could also try to specialize in something like audio engineering.

plucky hatch Mar 14, 2019, 2:47 PM

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oh god not those things

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they destroy your records

lilac walrus Mar 14, 2019, 2:47 PM

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indeed

plucky hatch Mar 14, 2019, 2:48 PM

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thats why theyre also called vinyl killers

dusk raptor Mar 14, 2019, 2:48 PM

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😄

plucky hatch Mar 14, 2019, 2:48 PM

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZZ5x80h3B4

YouTube

Techmoan

The RECORD RUNNER

A look at the Record Runner novelty record player. A new take on the 1970s Sound Wagon - AKA the Vinyl Killer, the little VW van that drives around a record,...

▶ Play video

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but tbf

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the rokblok is worse

plain ore Mar 14, 2019, 3:30 PM

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Go to GDC... Network. Advice is free today. 😀

lyric cedar Mar 14, 2019, 3:59 PM

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It would be a dream to go to GDC someday

remote saffron Mar 14, 2019, 5:41 PM

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an expensive one kappa

finite mulch Mar 14, 2019, 5:43 PM

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😬

barren lotus Mar 14, 2019, 7:04 PM

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Go to San Fran and hit up the bars at night to network and just watch the GDC talks on YouTube / the Vault later for free 🤔

finite mulch Mar 14, 2019, 8:23 PM

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For us in the EU even going to San Fran is expensive 😄

remote saffron Mar 14, 2019, 8:26 PM

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True

harsh brook Mar 14, 2019, 8:26 PM

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@iron cave I know a few sound contractors and like Amber said its a hard industry to enter, to find work, and to have a sustainable line of work. I would second her thoughts on finding work in media in general. You can always work outside of games to find work. The guys I know just finished a contract for a TV show for example. The work exists you just gotta look a little harder than most other disciplines.

karmic kayak Mar 14, 2019, 8:28 PM

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but the EU means wealth for everyone. How can it be expensive to travel to the U.S for EU people? 😏

flat gazelle Mar 14, 2019, 8:28 PM

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Because not all of us are going...

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duh

harsh brook Mar 14, 2019, 8:28 PM

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If you think GDC is going to magically find you work I want to live in your dream land. You are more likely to find work at GDC, but your portfolio resume etc. still has to be competitive. Found that out personally last year.

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was still fun though 😄

flat gazelle Mar 14, 2019, 8:29 PM

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I've only been to GDC once, but that set me up for a years worth of freelancing. I had pretty much every minute of the whole trip booked with meetings and the like. I think my longest unscheduled time was a 45 minute lunch