to be fair, I've seen a lot of indie and amateur teams that don't have a designer that sorely needed one too, hehe
#career-chat
lilac walrus
cerulean haven
Hey guys. Is here anyone who is selling assets on UE marketplace?
olive timber
" especially if its well done and well presented" sorry i wasnt incredibly specific. All im saying is dont be so dogmatic in your beliefs. I never said idea guys were needed. I never said that should be a profession by itself. So cause the idea guys you met only could pitch broad ideas all of them pitch broad ideas? Some guy came in here a month ago with an idea pitch he had laid out on FB. He was thrown out through the front glass window without him ever saying if he had development skills. I went to his page: Off the charts. He had laid out every last aspect of the game from how his sword system works to how it would be implemented. It was a better concept than 70%+ of the projects that have actual hard progress on the forums.
alot of strawmans and hostility coming out of here
shadow kelp
@urban stump they are very much necessary when have a large team. Plus Designers != Ideas Guy. There's a ton of systematic, methodical design work required that's nothing to do with 'ideas'
when you have many designers working on a project, you need the creative director role to steer the vision for the game
urban stump
You don't get to be that guy by having no practical skills however
It takes years of experience and multiple shipped games
An indie "idea guy" has none of that
It's not even close to being the same thing
dusty jolt
this is 1000% true ^
People who would decline that are most likely indie devs, or free lancers with no games under there belt.
also lets note
IDEAS R EZ
implementation is hard
neat jackal
The problem with "ideas guys" also isn't necessarily the ideas themselves, but that there are many people who can come up with ideas. I wouldn't hire someone for just ideas, instead I'd hire someone I need in the team (be it an artist, game designer, programmer, lead, whatever) who can come up with ideas and bring something else to the team, since they're just as easy to find yet will offer me more in the long run. The main "idea guy" here is the project lead/lead developer, who worked his way up to that position, and everyone gets to have some influence on the games we make/pitch ideas. This means the lead isn't just someone with ideas, but someone who actually knows what he's doing, has experience with making the games and how the team works, and knows how to lead the team to make a good game.
dusty jolt
dam why can i not find a short cut for add influence for skinning in maya D:
urban stump
@dusty jolt Not career advice 😛 But you can just make a shortcut
dusty jolt
i love it when mirror skin weights is doing nothing >.>
sometimes i want to bash my own head in with maya
finite mulch
🤔
remote saffron
idea guys everywhere yet nobody knows what game-design means 🤔
at least that channel is missused like 90% of the time
steel creek
which was my point 😄
ideas are cheap and easy
actually doing the work is the hard part.
as for "strawman" arguements, the only ones I read are the ones where %%% (percentages) were used like facts.
plucky hatch
guys anyone here made money blogging?
plucky hatch
I could use some advice right about now
like, desperately
Basically, I got accepted into a dual credit college course on game development
and the recommended specs for a laptop for that course are like, super insane
I'm talking 16GB RAM, a GTX 1060, etc
that puts it well into the $2000 pricepoint
my parents have been trying their hardest to bring in that kind of money to afford it
they've been trying all summer
we're just not gonna make it
what do I do
honest cipher
dual credit college course on game development
get the fuck out of there
actually for reals
a game degree is worthless other than the contacts. Paying an expensive school and going into depth is 100% absolutely not worth it one bit
digital gate
Ask about the minimum specs if you insist on going
Or go desktop with about half the recommended specs - you can upgrade it later and use the lesser graphics card as a coaster.
honest cipher
those game laptops are pretty sweet
i have one
costed me 1700 euros, and has a 1070, 16 gb of ram, an ssd + 1 tb of hdd, and a strong i7
pale stratus
Most colleges are trying to get money out of people. Only consider trusting government colleges (even then, investigate them).
honest cipher
and the game degree is specially worthless
plucky hatch
I'm insisting on going
plucky hatch
because for one, it counts as a college AND highschool credit
and it's something I'm interested in
win-win there
pale stratus
You can learn it all online for free and create your own products to sell.
plucky hatch
I'm getting into the course for free...
it's the laptop itself
though I did find a suitable one on newegg for around $900
pale stratus
what are the full requirements?
honest cipher
if thats true, that is a ridiculously good deal
you can upgrade the ram in this laptops separately
digital gate
Well hey, I think you'll do alright. Free course and you're already doing gamedev stuff
pale stratus
digital gate
I think CS would be more generally useful if you're gonna be a programmer specifically - dunno about the other disciplines
plucky hatch
See, I already know pretty well how to program.
I understand a lot of the concepts of CS
Gamedev specifically is more interesting to me
I want to learn more about it, about game design, level design, etc
and I want to be able to apply for a job at a gamedev studio and actually be able to say "Hey, I know what I'm doing" even if I haven''t yet released anything
digital gate
Well it sounds like you've already weighed this all out.
honest cipher
one trick with the laptop
i recomend you get a fat one
they tend to be cheaper than the thin ones, and while they are much heavier and bulkier, they have much better performance
the one i have, a msi dominator pro, is an absolute brick
but this brick can handle 10 hours of non-interrupted vr demoing (both cpu and gpu at 100%), without getting even warm
kindred mason
@plucky hatch anyway, a 1060 laptop = $900 or less
Dell XPS
or Inspiron, one of them
plucky hatch
Yeah
plucky hatch
I need it in canada
kindred mason
drive over the border?
hybrid phoenix
I can't even get a 1050ti laptop for 900 euros here 😛
plucky hatch
We dont have enhanced licenses or passports
We cant go over the border just like that
plucky hatch
The main thing I'm worried about is, because of my eyes and the fact it takes me longer to do things, my school always gives me a resource period every semester that counts as a credit. a.k.a, I get a credit just for sitting there and resting my eyes or catching up on assignments in other classes
And although my dad is letting me use his laptop for classes at the college, that's only one day of the week
and if I get a bigger gamedev assignment, I can't work on that in the resource periods because I won't have his laptop with me.
steel creek
ask an american friend to bring you one and pay them 5% + maple syrup for their trouble.
plucky hatch
Good idea, but, we can't afford real maple syrup
only table syrup
And I don't really...have any american friends who can afford the laptop anyway
neat jackal
If college requires you to get that laptop, and they have a list of minimum requirements, they'll often also have some suggestions for laptop's and where to buy them (sometimes even with student discounts). Try asking your college about it if this wasn't included when they gave you the minimum requirements.
plucky hatch
St. Lawrence College
And no
Only college in town
And i am already in the course. Cant drop out
kindred mason
Strange. You should have already known all the prerequisites before admission
Assuming you did this senior year, at least 6 months ago
neat jackal
Huh, round here that's very normal. Some offer cheap laptops you can hire/buy from the school though, you end up paying a small amount extra every year.
But everyone has a different amount they can spend on laptops, some people already have laptops, some people want it for other purposes too so need higher/lower end laptops, just makes sense to let the person buy it themselves...
kindred mason
This is what financial aid would be used for
In the case they did not provide it though
stark lichen
I'm going into computer science and my school requires a minor w/ the program, and I want to become a game dev but I'm unsure which minor would help me most
I was thinking of minoring in physica
physics
**
but if i wanted to get a job outside game development then economics would
probably be a better option
i can also get a minor in art but imo thats a dumb minor because it's just a bunch of art history classes
and i already know how to draw even if it wasn't that
digital gate
I'd say go phys - you're already in decent shape for non-game work with the CS degree.
stark lichen
That's what I was thinking too
shadow kelp
Seconded, physics would be handy for games...and a CS degree alone opens up more career options than you can shake a stick at
steel creek
And don't worry, nobody who has an art degree will take offense at your ignorance of their professional careers.
quick tree
Hello guys! I need a career advice
Bascially I want to be a music producer (games and films), I just got fl studio and get some knowledge with it. I am 19, and I just got in university of music in Romania
What should I do now? I think I shall make a portofolio... but I don't know how many songs to make and what genres
slim shuttle
XRXx get a portfolio built ASAP. Create content for any developer and in this discord and ask for credits
Doesn’t matter the game or genre just offer up composition to their game at no cost or low cost
Will open doors in the future
slim shuttle
No problem
You can compose different music list as royalty free on YouTube with stipulated agreement to include you in credits and request for permission
That way you can hit the largest number of developers possible
And build your portfolio rather quickly
@quick tree
slim shuttle
Once you gain recognition and demand you can register with BMI and generate royalties for future work
Or do one time purchase licensing
Up to you
Long term goal would be to get hired by a studio
Or setup a online marketplace to sell your content directly to developers
Unity and unreal marketplace is a good place to start
frigid ridge
Do developers make any money off the unreal marketplace? It looked kinda dead to me.
finite mulch
Yes, some live from it @frigid ridge
storm cradle
@frigid ridge You don’t only have to publish it on the UE marketplace.
frigid ridge
Thank you. I would assume that would depend on a lot of factors. I would say 1% might live from it. The other 99% of content sits there and collects dust.
light bay
ornate path
Quick question for y'all regarding resumes: Do you find that the "one page only" mentality is prevalent in the industry at least for beginners, or would ending up with two pages not be a big deal?
restive root
In the UK at least, 2 pages is normal for ppl with experience. 3 pages can happen but I’d recommend against it.
1 page is fine if you have less experience.
Might be different in other countries, but just make sure everything on it is relevant and it highlights why you’re suitable. I’d much rather see a brief sentence about what you did at a previous role than just where you worked.
flat gazelle
I've got 10 years of experience and it fits on 1 page. I have an optional page where I list conference presentations, public speaking and articles.
Keep it short, if they want more details they can ask or check your LinkedIn
ashen lynx
I don't think there is a mentality about 1 page only. It is just that It is hard to imagine any relevant information taking more than one page.
urban stump
I've heard stick to only 1 page a few times myself
steel creek
One page plus a cover letter
lilac walrus
mine is about a page and a half and it's all it needs to be - any more than two pages and you have too much
coral needle
Line 1 of resume: I'll make you fat stacks
grim scaffold
if it's for a programming position: I'll make your stacks fat
shadow kelp
2 is fine. Id' be surprised if an experienced candidate could fit a CV on one page without it being annoying to read. Even when I start culling off my first few jobs it's a squeeze
lilac walrus
I think someone may have leant on their keyboard, lol
little tundra
I also think so. lol
atomic fossil
other day discord overlay popped in middle of a dota match and i started spamming on a server, probably got banned somewhere
little tundra
haha
hybrid phoenix
x3
uncut carbon
See if I want to get a job in level design or an environment artiest Could I just build levels n scenes just without any gameplay n just make a showreel etc add it to my portfolio?
remote saffron
for envitonment design, yep
level design is kinda gameplay related
hybrid phoenix
^
uncut carbon
coolio
livid mango
hi guys.. i m new to this app.. a little help please..
white oasis
what an odd statement
karmic kayak
also more suited for #ue4-general
urban stump
restive root
@formal grail To get in front of as many eyes as you can? Probably through a publisher but you’ll need to approach one with your game ideas and see if they’re interested. You can self market (and probably should in any case), but putting it on stream is just one tiny step in what’s required to get a good number of sales and on its own won’t do much good.
remote saffron
depends on your deal, on your game, on the publisher, etc.
do you expect to have a best way which is something someone will write you down in this chat in a few sentences, or what? 🤔
there are tons of materials out there, gdc talks, publisher websites, etc. check those - you will learn way more than you can from asking these questions here
sorry if my style was a bit rude but what I try to tell you is that "there is no best way, whole topic is too complicated, needs way more research than asking a few questions"
restive root
@formal grail As @remote saffron said, there are a lot of variables and you won’t find too many specifics on exact details because it’s usually not disclosed. However, if you want to go down this route then you should find an appropriate publisher for your game (or they publish games in a similar style / budget) and approach them. You will need to be professional about it. They’re busy people with a lot going on so make sure you prepare proper pitch decks, you know your market, you know your numbers / budgets and you can present a proper schedule of work etc. They’ll not only want good ideas, but they need to know that you can actually make the game (up to the right level of quality) and that you’ll be someone they want to work with.
untold sapphire
@calm berry so ur not suggesting germany?
calm berry
yee 😄
plucky hatch
is job in gamedev industry without any degree possible aand common thing?
or its possible but rare
calm berry
its always with skills
if you have a large enough protfolio you can skip almost everything
flat gazelle
Very possible
steel creek
You need skills those being communication skills and execution skills.
If it required you to go to college to understand and get those skills, great.
If it didn't require you to go to college to understand and get those skills, great.
manic agate
^
plucky hatch
bros how long does it take to learn c++ AND unreal engine to find a job?
in game dev
tacit siren
depends on prior experience
there is a big difference if you had 15 years experience coding in another language, or if you never wrote a line of code
calm berry
prior experience + only unreal
mh
well i think 3 or 4 years
bc i am only so long in unreal but already have a code job
prior experience is a great thing tho
calm berry
me 4 years
plucky hatch
but in my country if I work minimum wage then I can only rent a room
not even small house
calm berry
i dont know how long you will take
you could be 2 years in and a find a job
or 8 years...
its no particular bound to time
tacit siren
i'm guessing it would take you about a year's worth of full-time training for me to consider hiring you as a programmer
its not just the c++, its writing modular, extensible and maintainable code
that usually takes longer
plucky hatch
i see bro
my friend found job after 5 months of unity
learning
sorry c# learning
but he was pro
made mmorpg himself
(no one played it, but he did connectivity thing in code etc)
calm berry
thats what i am talking about
its not time based
you might get lucky and be needed
but to land a job professional, you will need not just one area of code knowledge
i specialize in FPS, AI, UI and more stuff
so people cant get rid of me fast
i also do 3D and textures... and gamedesign
i can be used in so many ways
tacit siren
specializing right from the start would not be the greatest decision, imo
tacit siren
having a programmer with no significant experience and a specialization come for a chat would raise a red flag for me
plucky hatch
ill use word "successful title" because there will be players
plucky hatch
why
plucky hatch
imo gameplay is harder to make than mmorpg
urban stump
He's been at this "mmorpg" thing for months, this is why nobody takes him seriously
calm berry
😄 but hes entertaining
urban stump
He wants to make an mmo because he thinks that once it's done he's set for life with "passive income"
plucky hatch
no
plucky hatch
lmao
urban stump
He's never made a game before
calm berry
you do know that mmorpg isnt a code thing alone?
tacit siren
i would not even entertain the idea of making a MMORPG if i didn't have all of the following: great pay, team of at least 25 people and 3 years worth of time to make it
calm berry
mmorpg is a word that can only be used with player base
so if your friend has not risen a game with a massive amount of players... its not an mmorpg
more like a dry framework
calm berry
you still have
urban stump
Clearly not enough socks on your eyes
calm berry
i thought it was hard to be taken serious with a sock on
plucky hatch
ill pull it back again when i get eye pain
plucky hatch
Zero
urban stump
Why is it that every channel Karol goes to becomes the lounge
plucky hatch
lol
Sorry my bad
I really struggle to make that rtsbro
i have an example of minions which is good
but theres no selection
ok i know, ill make first version really handicapped to speed things up
so the units will be invisible
urban stump
This is not career advice in any way, aside from being a cautionary tale to others.
plucky hatch
oh thought thats unreal channel
urban stump
Get to the lounge.
ocean stirrup
What advice would you guys have for someone working with a team that uses UE4, while I've only been using UE4 for 2 months but have 3+ years experience with Cryengine? Will it be hard for me to adapt?
honest cipher
@ocean stirrup how are you not clinically insane after the horrifying experience of 3 years of cryengine?
😛
calm berry
you will love the material and level workflow
honest cipher
literally the only thing cryengine can do better is the dynamic light
ocean stirrup
I stopped when Cryengine V launched
honest cipher
and thas about it
ocean stirrup
The glitches are insane there too
honest cipher
everything else is a disaster, so you will be fine
ocean stirrup
I heard the coding is much easier, I was very fluent with Flow Graph and Blueprint seems like its for me
calm berry
watch some mathew wadstein on youtube
ocean stirrup
@honest cipher , didn't you have some nice cryengine work a while ago? I remember seeing you on the forums
tacit siren
@ocean stirrup best advice imo: if it feels like you are hacking around the engine for something that should be basic, you are almost certainly doing something wrong
honest cipher
but the closed source and undocumented AI system got in the way
tacit siren
stop and re-evaluate
ocean stirrup
I understand the engine so far
I've watched tutorials but was wondering if my inexperience would effect my collaboration with the team
tacit siren
i guess it depends what background are you are coming from
from what i've seen its 3 months to competent, 6 to comfortable for people with prior experience switching to unreal
plucky hatch
i think yes
deft trench
Hey, im wondering how much someone would be able to do dedicated servers. I have a provider just need it done for the game so they can implement the servers
I have i3D.net hosting my servers, so just need the servers done in my game and implemented to a server browser
lilac walrus
A) That's a 'how long is a piece of string' question.
B) This is about career advice, as described above
rigid dome
Hi all, I don't really have a specific question or anything, but I'm looking to find others who have gone from a more business focused software development background to professional game development either with a studio or starting their own. It's a step I'm considering for myself down the road (late 19/ early 20) and would like to talk / pick the brains of other people who have made similar career decisions. My background is in web development from 2006-2012 and mobile development (iOS Swift / ObjC) since 2012. All eCommerce, Social Media, IoT products. Never games. I've only recently started to dig into UE4 and make my own stuff.
If you wouldn't mind my picking your brain over a few DMs I would be appreciative!
granite brook
What would you peeps say, what a Junior/Intern VR onsite Programmer should earn B2B per month? :P
(Just to check if the email I received would actually get people to work at that company XY)
plucky hatch
Correct me if the numbers or wrong, but I'm guessing between 0-45K (Canadian dollars) a year depending on the company. The bigger the company is, usually the more they would be willing to pay you.
And then in approx. 3-8 years you can move from entry level to 60-120K per year.
Successful projects, Overtime, raises, bonuses, etc.
Maybe programmers earn more in the US, I don't know.
urban stump
For an artist in the US, a junior position is around $20-25 hourly which works out to $40-50k per year.
plucky hatch
Level designers usually are paid a bit less and programmers a bit more.
granite brook
Yeah so that's what you would guess
And then you get emails that offer 2k B2B per month
So with 5 days a week (20 days per month) and 8 hours per day, you earn 12.5€ per hour :D
plucky hatch
You have to choose your studio wisely. An entry level position at Game Studios that mainly work on mobile could have been 28K per year and at AAA studios it could have been 45k.
Of course, you could go from 28K to 40K in 2-3 years, but still.
Choose where you want to work wisely.
granite brook
I would rather say: Know what you are worth :D
plucky hatch
You have to start somewhere.
granite brook
That's true, not sure what their requirements are
It's a bad move though to ask a Programmer with years of experience to start as an intern at 2k lol
plucky hatch
I'm Sr. an I've been asked by a AAA studio to be paid at entry level ''because I came from a mobile studio''.
I wasn't amused.
granite brook
I laughed. Was sitting at the Doctor and couldn't hold it.
That salary is less than what you can ask for as a remote freelancer in ue4 with basic blueprint gameplay knowledge (~1 year exp)
Obvously a debate of freelancer vs stable job
But yeah, thinking about it it's rude af
plucky hatch
Pros and cons for everything, you are right.
granite brook
Yeah and to that comes people not knowing what they are worth, even on entry level basis.
Not checking #career-chat often, but I hope all you peeps make sure you are paid properly and ask for advice here! (:
plucky hatch
It may be more valuable to understand what your employer considers to be worthy.
And then understand what, as an individual, you need to learn to grow over the years.
granite brook
Not sure I can agree, but maybe we talk about different things.
As a freelancer and now co-founder of a company that does remote work, I would always stick to my rate.
Of course there are people who can't afford it but that's a different story.
plucky hatch
Some people think they'll get a job and ''get better at their craft at work''. But often the sad reality is that they will just do production work which isn't always about quality. They may get rusty if they don't practice at home to improve their skills.
granite brook
Home practice is a big thing I guess. I did tutoring at Uni in C and you noticed instantly who was doing this at home for fun to improve.
And yes, you often don't do what you actually thought you will do.
plucky hatch
When I got into the industry, I was surprised by how many people weren't actually big gamers or doing stuff at home after work.
honest cipher
@granite brook payment for a mid level programmer in the UK?
becouse thtas what im applying for
granite brook
Define mid level (:
granite brook
Weeeeell, maybe his mid is more a mid-high or low-mid :D
honest cipher
im aiming for 45k or so
unless its london then more becouse london is a clusterfuck
plucky hatch
Here it would be like...
Entry level: 30-45K
Mid-level: 50K-60K
High-level: 60-120K
Rockstar: 80k-150k
honest cipher
USA?
plucky hatch
Canada
granite brook
So Rockstar is someone who can do everything?
honest cipher
tfw im rockstar then
granite brook
:D what does Mid entail then? I still feel that's vague
honest cipher
above junior
plucky hatch
lul, by rockstar I meant like some rockstar programmers or character artists mainly
honest cipher
but not senior with people you lead over
granite brook
I mean Company XY looks for a person who can do Z.
If he can do that, is he a rockstar then?
Or does he need to be able to do things they don't look for to be a Rockstar?
plucky hatch
Rockstar is just a term some people use to describe some rare individuals who are massively talented and are being paid a hell lot more than others
character artists 😛
granite brook
Na I get you, I just wanted to put some more explanation in my question what he defines as mid
honest cipher
turns out there is a bug in the AI code and the AI coder is sick? rockstar comes and fixes it
granite brook
Or rather some examples?
honest cipher
well, its fairly simple really. Professional programmer that does not ned to be tutored/micromanaged but he is not a senior (with ages of experience and/or people under his wing)
granite brook
Person A can do VR and Engine Stuff.
Person B can only do Engine Stuff.
Both would get paid the same if Company A wants Engine stuff.
But Person A would get more if Company B wants VR and Engine Stuff.
So isn't it more about requirements?
(Naive question)
Person A and B can do whatever the company asks for, so no tutoring needed.
Just to remove that variable from the equation
plucky hatch
Some people may consider celebrities as Rockstars in the industry (ex: Cliffy B, Jade Raymond, Myamoto, etc.)
Just a matter of perspective, really
granite brook
If they are better than most others, sure why not.
honest cipher
another term for a rockstar is a "10x"
cosmic oak
Does anyone know of like a giant list of game studios? I have trouble remembering them and want to start applying for junior/associate positions soon now that I'm in my final semester of college.
honest cipher
people who eventually are as valuable as 10 "normal" programmers
granite brook
Jesus, that "term" exists?
granite brook
Welp
plucky hatch
Well, this is for the province of Quebec, Canada.
https://mtlgamestudios.wixsite.com/mtlgs
Several studios are listed there
cosmic oak
Cool! Thanks!
plucky hatch
Here it comes down usually to two cities: Montreal & Quebec (the city of Quebec within the Province of Quebec).
They have the same name, may be a bit confusing.
cosmic oak
What is hte major flaw?
plucky hatch
You can't put yourself in the mind of a designer to verify his or her real value.
Coding and art are more tangible.
This is still valid today.
https://youtu.be/uhmYENdFZc8
lilac walrus
@honest cipher - mid level programmer in the UK might get up to 40k, depending on where you are located
some of that salary will be based on previous studio experience though
honest cipher
thanks
lilac walrus
I'd probably aim for £35
I'm not sure I'd want to be living in the UK over the next year or two though tbh
remote saffron
btw from what I have heared the fact that bigger/AAA studios will pay more is not always true
smaller but stable studios can end up offering way more as people are less motivated to work for them and they need good talent
at least in europe, with players like ubisoft/cd project red
steel prawn
i start next week at Epic games 😃
plucky hatch
Woah congrats.
plucky hatch
I remember a conference, Epic was saying it was more difficult to work at Epic than to get a job in the CIA
steel prawn
really?
plucky hatch
That's what they said 😛
steel prawn
we have 2 phone calls after this he send me Contract and ticket.
but i have an 6 months test.
plucky hatch
"Last year, we hired .4 percent of people who applied," said Tim Johnson from Epic Games. "Just as a comparison, 8 percent get into Harvard who apply, and .6 percent get into the CIA. I'm not trying to say that it is harder to get a job at Epic than it is with the CIA, but it is just based on the numbers."
steel prawn
crazy maybe this is because of my lang...
and he needs german employers
but i hate fortnite.. haha
plucky hatch
I know from experience that we think to think at some point that the grass is often greener elsewhere. But to be real, it's pretty much the same everywhere.
So, Epic Games is a really good place to work at. You can hardly get bigger.
It's a thing we can observe here in Montreal, people jump from one studio to another just to return to the same studios lol.
It's funny
fading yoke
I wish I could get an offer
steel prawn
year next week i can say more here 😃 and share some pictures
plucky hatch
not to be rude or anything, but I'd recommend you keep a low profile lol
steel prawn
but one of this guys from epic games told me he take me only because i told him i love UE and UT 😄
steel prawn
😄
plucky hatch
oh wait, you might be from Europe 😛 so... I probably never played with you XD
plucky hatch
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
We have Ubisoft, Eidos, Square Enix, Epic, Bethesda, Behaviour and many other studios around here
steel prawn
ahh nice i have to go after 6 months to USA
honest cipher
Twitter
Google, Apple, and IBM wont give a fuck about a university degree anymore
remote saffron
that's pretty cool actually
honest cipher
yeah they realized that so many people just cant afford the degree but are actually damn good
or that the degree doesnt really mean much
drowsy tundra
They dropped it as a requirement, but I'm not sure that exactly means they "wont give a fuck about a university degree anymore" 😄
It's still probably going to be a decently substantial credential, it's more likely just to not completely close the doors on people who can prove their knowledge through other ways
remote saffron
that fits well your skillset
vernal rune
awesome, colleges are broken af anyways
plucky hatch
why br0ken @vernal rune mat3
vernal rune
All the Reasons
spice dagger
plucky hatch
Nice
remote saffron
we have 31 degrees here, I am going to die 😢
vivid pivot
That's a great temperature for a CPU 😉
karmic kayak
what does temps have to do with #career-chat ? 🤔
remote saffron
we were talking about degrees
tacit siren
so i guess do not work where @remote saffron is during summer vaguely qualifies
lilac walrus
31C isn't so bad
it got to 39C here last summer xD
not far off this year either
we didn't have air-con last year either which was brutal
vivid pivot
haha one-punch man training
fading yoke
Can I get a portfolio feedback? Here's my Github: https://github.com/wanderrful
fading yoke
Also - if my game jam thing won a bunch of awards in a game jam, should I list it under experience or list it under Projects? Because on my resume right now, I have only one line for projects and multiple lines for experiences.
I've seen some people in University on LinkedIn list their projects as experiences so I'm wondering if I should do that, too.
steel prawn
Today was my first game at Epic games.... crazy like fort knox
steel prawn
I start to work there
fading yoke
@steel prawn What networking did you leverage to get a nice job like that?
steel prawn
Job board of Epic Games
But this company is hard... nothing is allowed. No smartphones, no photos nothing
Only water in clear bottles without labels 
hybrid phoenix
Tfw Epic's security is better than the airport's
digital gate
be leaving epic
go to airport
Nah, I came from epic. Y'all good.
waved through the fast lane
carmine mica
leaky leaky not epic epic
flat gazelle
This reminded me (Not that you did anything wrong). When you get your first job in the industry, it's so exciting! But do keep in mind, you have signed at least one NDA so don't talk about things you haven't been explicitly told to talk about in a public forum like this. Even things that seem innocent can fall under proprietary information. In itself it might not be bad, but if the company wants to get rid of you at a later date, having that trail behind you is not going to help you.
steel creek
I was literally just about to write your first day and you're already giving us the info
Makes you wonder why they have all that security huh
flat gazelle
The secret information is not just the supercool projects you get to see, but procedures, softwares, clients. Everything.
steel creek
It's ironic that most people think content is King when it's really process
flat gazelle
Indeed
steel creek
Trade secrets on workflow is a thing
flat gazelle
Even if the workflow is a standard one, it's not ok to come out and say so without explicit agreement to do so
lilac walrus
I find security policies like that quite off-putting and won't work in an environment like that
if a company won't trust you enough to let you have your smart phone on you, they shouldn't be hiring you in the first place
I mean you've signed an NDA and a contract, that should be enough
flat gazelle
Agreed
barren lotus
On the topic of degrees, my buddy graduated high school and started work as a mid-level designer at a AAA studio. I recall his parents even flying out with him to sign work documents since he was still 17 at the time
If anything the degree shows you have commitment to complete something 🤷
flat gazelle
I'm degreeless and was flown over to a different country and put up at a hotel for my firs interview. Two can play the anecdotegame! 😄
steel creek
1:30 PM] ambershee: I mean you've signed an NDA and a contract, that should be enough
is that before or after you stole the material?
@ technicolor in India, for the Nickelodeon floor, they were not allowed anything.
EA had to enforce their policy there (as well) after people were caught taking photos of their screens.
Just because ppl sign a thing, doesnt mean they are not retarded.
never allowing it to happen in the first place, is often the better way
flat gazelle
Yeah, satellite studios often have harsher security because it's always them who leak
As soon as you get the marketing machine involved, there will be leaks
steel creek
case in point, I was able to take pics of shit from MPC being done in the hyderbad studio..... because I could.
barren lotus
At one studio I worked at there was a policy you couldn't plug in USB sticks into the computers. Over the 5 years I was there I saw 2 people fired no questions asked because they stuck a stick into their machine
flat gazelle
No USB and No internet/separate network is quite common on really secret projects
Never seen anyone getting fired from trying though
I did hear of a guy who got sacked for trying to upload source to dropbox
barren lotus
Yeah that's shady. The two guys I know of they were artists just wanting to take some render screenshots of models they made
ashen lynx
Well, it does not work that way. Gotta get a wavier signed first.
ashen lynx
USB stickers and other portable media policies are almost always justified.
flat gazelle
Yet frustrating
ashen lynx
Does not count towards a healthy working atmosphere, but w.e.
Going overboard with IP protection and in fact any other restrictive policies, almost always results in qualified personnel leaking elsewhere.
steel creek
2:17 PM] Deathrey: Well, it does not work that way. Gotta get a wavier signed first. nailed it
You work for someone. Its not your decision what is "ok" to do
always ask
ashen lynx
I am not sure about States legislation in that respect, but usually, employing entity can't come up with reason to fire, based on internal policy.
steel creek
pretty much fire you on the spot. No questions. Depends on the studios, of course
but zero tolerance (here in LA) seems to be the norm when you know ahead of time
fickle hatch
In US, they can fire you on the spot, unless it's for discriminatory reasons IIRC
fickle hatch
You can always contest being fired and get a ton of money out of it if you are in the right (but you won't be)
barren lotus
CA is an at will state so they can fire us whenever
steel creek
yeah CA is all pay for play unless you get a fat contract
fickle hatch
In US, to my knowledge, you are well protected on paper (you can get fired, but you can get back onto the job with a hefty compensation), but your contracts will be written in a way that precludes legal action and you won't succeed in practice
If you wanna succeed, you need to start with keeping all work-related correspondence in writing at very least
I only know about this stuff from reading some lawsuits. In those cases, the case was dismissed as the employee did not have any written records of employer mistreating them
barren lotus
They have a contract you sign when you leave, whether voluntarily or fired off, that you won't talk bad about the company nor sue them for whatever reason including discrimination
fickle hatch
And it wasn't clear cut on any other claims, in the end the person lost the case
barren lotus
You don't have to sign it but you won't get severance
ashen lynx
I used to work with PC, that had its floppy drive sealed with hot glue, as a security measure. They are doing the same thing with USB nowdays ?
flat gazelle
never seen that
remote saffron
can't use usb? just take out the hard drive 🤷
I see the point in these security stuffs too but just like amberhee I would hate them too, it simply makes the work wierd or idk
and they will never be 100%, if you are working on a very secret project you will always be able to talk about it anyway 🤔
not having internet on work PC is something I have seen too and that is like the worst thing you can ever do in game dev
mental viper
ppl sharing lot of experience from US studios, how is it in other places?
flat gazelle
I've never worked in the US
remote saffron
in EU they can't just fire you for no reason, there is a notice period and the employer must keep that too as long as you did not do someting extrem afaik
at least in the countries I had the luck to work in 🤷
flat gazelle
The only no internet company I've worked for was in the UK. But we had a librarian that got stuff down for us and leads had internet as well as specific internet pcs
remote saffron
what I have seen there was one (very slow, wth?) internet PC in all room, a room was for about 10 people
you could use USB stick tho
ashen lynx
in EU you have to at least beat up your collegue fairly well, leave some damage to the corporate property and perform that under influence to actually be considered for being fired.
flat gazelle
Yup
barren lotus
An old coworker I had who used to work at a studio in Sweden said they couldn't dismiss someone unless everyone who worked under that person was let go first. Don't know how true that was
flat gazelle
No
If the company has to downsize
That's the end they start in
If someone needs to get fired, they get fired
But they need to have Really good reason for it
remote saffron
oh I see
ashen lynx
You have to pass quite a few circles of Hell, to downsize or shut down in most EU.
barren lotus
He also said the work-life balance in Sweden was crazy good, like 5-6 hour work days I think. A bit hazy on details since this was a couple years back the convo
flat gazelle
Yeah, no
That's not right
There have been experiments with 6 hour days, but it's not the norm
steel creek
2:38 PM] Volatile: in EU they can't just fire you for no reason, same in the states. Nothing anyone has said states otherwise. The original conversation was: If you fook up and steal IP/Content/Break the terms of your employment, you can easily get fired -- justifiably so.
ashen lynx
Well, it is a tad different. In EU, the contract can't have such clauses. Should it have any, that contradicts to labour legislation, it will be declared null and void at first hearing with all the consequences. Terms of employment is not something, that is decided by employer.
There is some leeway, but not as much as in States.
barren lotus
Do you guys have comprehensive outlines at work about social media activities? Especially after that whole ArenaNet thing over the summer, on how / when you can express yourselves in your personal time
ashen lynx
Nothing explicit established here. On a previous job however we used to have media policy, which stated that any information release about internal affairs should be performed via designed company's media representative or through his written approval.
fickle hatch
I'm gonna share a frustration here
With seeking potential business partners
I hate bullshittery and it's surprisingly tough to find people willing to ask tough questions and talk specifics 😐
ashen lynx
In what sense business partners?
fickle hatch
Lets say investors
I don't wanna say just investors because we're open to different kinds of partnership too
ashen lynx
There aren't that many specializing on gamedev. Besides, offering competitive interest rate is... unrealistic.
Add geo on top of that.
fickle hatch
We're slowly poking outside of gamedev too, but for now just exhausting the gamedev ones we picked out
We don't only make vidyagames, there's plenty of industrial stuff we need partner(s) for too
But industrial stuff is less attractive
We found a great potential client who knows exactly what kinda simulators we're making and why they need them, but they can't pay much 😄
ashen lynx
But yeah, from POV of investor, when sum concerned is around 1kk, what interest rate would be good for you to pick an IT startup of sorts, instead of time-proven stuff like estate and what not ?
fickle hatch
From POV of investor I'd ask the company on whether they have a good grasp of what they will do with the money, when, how, for at least a few years ahead
With a bunch of financial forecasts for different scenarios and hard information (as in, based on real people reactions, communities etc) on potential customers, and a lot more
We've been applying to a bank and they asked all the tough questions and it was great. We answered all them, but our current business partner (who I started the company with) doesn't know how to manage his time and is overdue on every possible thing 😐
So frustratingly despite getting greenlit at every step, it took long enough that we have to look for someone different
ashen lynx
You have all the info. What interest rate would you ask for ?
fickle hatch
One sec
That's kind of a tough question
Because it depends on who am I talking to
For example, the earlier mentioned banks interest rate is between 3% and 7%, which is absolutely perfect. I would expect worse with a private investor
ashen lynx
You are talking to a guy, that has 1kk stashed and considers laying down an investment agreement.
You are the guy*
fickle hatch
Personally, I'd love to co-own the theoretical company in question, depending on how much I contribute. Lets say that the company has good technology and is expected to make a good return on its investment. Lets imagine 40% of the company would be my first suggestion with expectation that it will be negotiated lower down.
I would prefer to get a share of the company rather than just giving a flat sum and getting back interest
A bank can do that, but assuming the company got my full interest, I would like to have some participation in its further evolution. Even if it's just mentoring sorta thing
ashen lynx
good return on its investment, yesss but how much ?
lusty turtle
Taking Introduction to Programming - is there anything should I be aware of in terms of stuff that probably wont get taught in class?
Obviously not things like language specifics, but I mean general good practices that might fly under the curriculum's radar or highly relevant software & so on. Or any dated practices to be aware of that stopped being appropriate years ago.
fickle hatch
If the company wants 500k and expects to make 2mil on that, I'd want to get back my 500k + something irrelevant (lets say 50k so I can buy myself a new car), but have say in where the remaining 1500k would be re-used
ashen lynx
Well, things don't work that way.
500k of risk for 50k profit ? In what timespan ?
2 years ?
fickle hatch
Yep. Not just 50k, but also the part of the company
Which is way more than 50k
Lets say the company makes 2000k after the project, 30% of that would be 600k, a much more attractive number
The real fun starts after the first project IMO
@ashen lynx does 650k of profit sound more reasonable than just 50k?
ashen lynx
again, in what timespan ?
fickle hatch
2-3 years at most
And I'm only assuming that company value = how much it has in the bank account here. Not adding value of IP, brand, blah blah
Just the immediately available and easily quantifiable resource
Project is done, sell your share in the company, idk
As an investor, I wouldn't do that, I would be interested in growing and buying more of the share in the company if it goes well
In our case, we're talking smaller numbers than 500k or 2kk 😄
ashen lynx
76% interest rate. Sounds cool. But throwing 500k into an apartment in a newbuild. will yield you 15-20% rate. Now think about chances of failing with a shady startup and a construction company with decent reputation and a dozen of builds delivered.
fickle hatch
Yes, that's where the tough questions come in
I would push the company up against the wall and make them plan everything out down to minutes if I was particularly mean that day
I would fully expect them to have an infallible grasp on at least some of the things they promise
"Here is a group of 10,000 people who will definitely buy this product, they are right here, right now. We can run any surveys on them, we can ask them anything"
E.g. I wouldn't invest into any game that doesn't have an established proven audience
Which brings me back to my original frustration
Our conversation is already more specific than I usually get 😐
You're asking tough questions and giving comments that I appreciate. My frustration is that I'm sick of bullshittery and super general answers
If you were an investor with 1kk, you could make me offers that make it better for you and we could have conversations about it. It's something that would take months, but I'm sure we could come up with something
I just want to get this project done, but I promise you we wouldn't get anything resolved until we were talking about it for months etc
ashen lynx
I am specific for I can give you a slight insight on the issue from the other side. I've attended quite a bit IT meetups here to take a peek at potential project worth investing into, in past 3 years. Long story short, I've picked up just buying 2 flats for resale.
fickle hatch
I understand you actually. I have a friend who invested into a movie and the movie bombed
He is a real estate guy and he refuses to go into any non-estate things anymore after that
Just because he's a butt, but he has all the right to be a butt. It's a fair point.
I'm going to keep my bullshittery points for a later time. The numbers for our project come from an established audience and we have competitors we can point to (at very least, we can get by through similarity - excluding the fact that our competitors have trash quality in every aspect), we will not paint the picture like our game would go viral and super-profitable (even though the chance is there)
It's not gonna go viral and we can accept a bigger investor share in the company, despite fully being aware that it is only fair if the game does poorly - any performance above pessimistic estimates shifts the ballance towards the investor (if the investor owns part of the company)
@ashen lynx if you're a guy with 1kk, I can tell you more specifics about us. Even if you're not, I can still do that 😄
I just want to talk to people, really. A solid specific conversation pushes us forward even if the final answer is no.
The only reason we have our plans and other junk today is because at some point in the past someone (bank etc) asked us tough questions
We were inexperienced and scared when we started the project though 😄
ashen lynx
Nope. not anymore and even back then below that. I can just say, that if you are looking for one, ensure that you are able to at least remotely describe the gist of the proposal within 5 minutes.
fickle hatch
Yeah. The gist of it is that we have tech for simulating complex vehicles and have completed models for some USSR/Russian subway trains. It's a project where people have fun driving realistic trains in multiplayer. People love playing with real vehicles and we are not bound by any licensing or IP restrictions.
The gist of the project is very simple, we can demonstrate with hard data that enough people love driving realistic vehicles in multiplayer to justify development of a full simulator with very pretty graphics.
Beyond the simulation part, the actual videogame development aspects are very trivial and don't need a large budget
There's more to it, since there is a cultural aspect to subway trains, but that's something that takes more than 5 min to explain
It's irrelevant as the project works out without the extra cultural baggage we want to bring
ashen lynx
It is a game after all, not a training/ industrial software, right ?
fickle hatch
We have an industrial version, but industrial version is not gonna be attractive to any investor
ashen lynx
I wanted to point it out yeah.
fickle hatch
Our current potential client for the industrial version can barely pay for its development
And industrial version is a very small subset of the game (outside of simulation tech - that is the same)
Our videogame model is industrial grade in every sense though. We have trained 6+ drivers with our prototype of the game...
ashen lynx
Development of a sim usually starts way after it is sold out.
fickle hatch
That's one of the things that won't fit in a 5 minute explanation - we have many people who have breezed through driving school after using our software to train
It's not a bullshittery point either, we can get every one of them if investor wants to talk to them, idk 😄
You get the idea I hope. People actually use our prototype for training and it makes people go start driving trains IRL
We tried hard to explain this to the metro company and we're slowly getting through to them 😄
It's very easy for us to convince people who actually teach drivers or people who actually work in the industry, but not the top level managers. The usual situation 😄
ashen lynx
Applicable to your geographical location, there are more effective means of selling this particular software. You are offering it to wrong persons.
fickle hatch
Oh?
Problem is, we cannot and will not find any investors in Eastern Europe. It has to be Europe or US
It's absolutely not an option sadly D:
plucky hatch
whats the name of this float ?
ashen lynx
But yeah, that is probably way off for a career advice chat. People start mistaking it for graphics channel. Investors are elusive, but they exist. Good projects are even more rare.
fickle hatch
I'm not going to seriously consider any investor based in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine etc. Out of the question. Too much corruption and straight up criminal junk
I know too well how things work there and we don't even share the same mentality
@ashen lynx Yeah 😄 Thanks for the chat anyway. I don't really have a lot of people with the right framework in their minds to talk to about this stuff
Would love to talk to others who do startups/companies and such and work on good projects
finite mulch
And I'd love to read such conversations 😄
fickle hatch
I'd like to think we are a good project, but of course, I'm not the one to make that judgement. I can only point out that we're not a novelty project (there are plenty train sims in both industrial and videogame markets) and that we come with a big baggade of already completed work, a proven prototype that is only growing in popularity etc
finite mulch
that is only growing in popularity It's publicly available?
fickle hatch
Yes
ashen lynx
We can move to game-design and safely discuss gore in train simulators and its profits.
fickle hatch
I don't do much for it anymore, but the community (aka the guys we keep our wing) keep working on it and improve it
It's based on source engine and the community guys are russians with only intermediate grasp of English, so you can imagine it's a little weird in some aspects 😄
It's fascinating to see our russian fans try to communicate with english-speaking fans
Both sides try their bestest and it boils down to memes
@finite mulch https://metrostroi.net/ this is it, if you're curious
finite mulch
Black Phoenix 🤔
steel creek
your main problem is simple: People who are successful doing what you are asking for, dont share the details of their process. Again, process is king, not content. Not ideas.
fickle hatch
@finite mulch just my alternate nickname
@steel creek we don't share our work processes, content pipeline, the tech etc
steel creek
no place I have ever been has done that. I have done it, myself, having been the guy who writes the pipes. But, that is how it goes.
fickle hatch
I wrote up work processes for all content creation, we went through all workflows for every type of asset etc
Now it's just routine. We need the money to pay artists to just crunch through routine work until they finish all art content that we need
steel creek
the gorey, glory of a pipeline supe
fickle hatch
The artists know what to do, we already have the artists, the artists are already trained with the workflows, but they are currently hungry and we aren't going to make them work if we can't have respectable employee-company relations 😐
ashen lynx
Interns!
steel creek
sadly, not sadly, using interns like that in the US is a no-no in most states now
esp CA
fickle hatch
Not safe enough, we need employees to sign an NDA and be very responsible when it comes to information management
Though that's not needed for bulk of work
But presence of small proportion of work requires it (you gotta handle engineering drawings and other stuff working for us)
It's serious engineering stuff for subway infrastructure and trains, just an inevitable aspect of what we are working with
(we're not a videogame company by any means)
ashen lynx
You, guys, are hardcore. Brave undertaking. Especially in view of how locale-specific the thing is.
fickle hatch
Yah, I never intended it to grow into a full big project like this at first
This entire project just started from two projects/sub-projects
steel creek
just keep the hands on the wheel; its all good.
fickle hatch
One - a simulation framework for realtime (with HIL support) simulation of internal systems of complerx aerospace vehicles, two - a failure simulation module for simulating failures in components and the such
What became prototype for our game was just me finding some electric schematics and inputting them into the system 😄
Then it turned out that people worldwide love driving realistic vehicles
All this talk is still nothing compared to simply trying to drive one of those old subway trains
They just feel... so good
It's not something that can be conveyed with words so we don't try
There's just something so satisfying about operating 200 tons of mass and being really good at it
steel creek
literally watching battlesasquatch and brett on twitch drive around jeeps/trucks in mud to fell trees.
Who knew
if we can get VR/AR involved somehow and turn it into litearal remote work vehicle ops....
people love to "play"
fickle hatch
Yah, we've been doing VR stuff for a while with this project too
There are some technical problems for making it consumer-ready for VR that we just didn't start solving yet. The actual controls stuff feels sooooo gooood
steel creek
Gamification of work/job is the next work/job
fickle hatch
I've basically trained at least 6 people (the ones who contacted us) using gamification of work/job. It works. Really damn well
Trying to get a bunch of dudes to memorize safety rules and regulations is absolute trash
It's much more effective to simply let them fuck up on a simulator (if it has the fidelity for it)
And then cover the remaining edge cases with lectures, of course
Practice > theory
ashen lynx
Speaking of gamification, I've attended a presentation, where CEO of ~~50ish employees sized developer presented, lets say a story of their successful gamification. I must sincerely admit that whole thing sounded like a bad joke.
fickle hatch
Haha, what was it?
ashen lynx
It truly was.
fickle hatch
What did they do?
ashen lynx
re-invented achievements.
ashen lynx
Yep, not gamedev specific.
fickle hatch
Yeah
Btw, subway train operators have a mountain of experience with getting people to not fuck up and be efficient. It's really interesting and insightful, but doesn't always map onto software development
ashen lynx
When asked a question about measuring effectiveness of their undertaking, no sane answer was given.
fickle hatch
Subway train operation - where it's done well - is based on blood. The only way it can be, IMO
The entire concept of subway train operation (and the network itself) was created based on human blood
Every time blood spills, the process is improved so it will never happen again
(that's why it won't map on software development, lol)
ashen lynx
I might be a bit old-fashioned, but people go to work... well.. to work? And instead of spending funds on ordering lame prints and labels, maybe it is worthy to raise salary by the same amount?
fickle hatch
It's a very very dangerous line to walk if you're creating uneven compensation/benefits to workers
It's too easy to fall into something terribly unhealthy
Valve did something stupid too related to that
@ashen lynx I think that it's important to maintain some company culture (having your company branding on computers and other meaningless junk like that), it costs little and goes a long way to make one feel as part of a bigger thing (and also butters them up for minor exploitation if someone is into that thing)
But ultimately for majority of people, it's just a work you do to feed yourself and not a game or a "hobby"
steel creek
[5:38 PM] Deathrey: re-invented achievements. except -- jobs did this first. Win at your job, get promoted -- new title -- achievement made
ashen lynx
I do disagree here. I've witnessed enough people wearing clothes, labeled by the company, drinking from cups, labeled by the company, writing with pens, labeled by the company, reading magazines, published by the company and doing all that while living on e a thing, fully owned by the company, yet still covering the company's name with junk in routine conversations in every aspect. @fickle hatch If corporate culture exists, it is definitely not in those items
@steel creek Key differences. You are not forced to get promoted. Promotion yields increased wages.
fickle hatch
@ashen lynx You are correct there
I think those elements enhance the corporate culture, but they are not enough on their own
Printing stuff with company branding is not a solution to any problems, just an optimization/improvement of the real solution (not permitting toxic behavior to evolve in the company etc)
It's something that makes it nicer if it's already nice
IMO
@lusty turtle also btw, no courses will ever tell you all things you need to continue on on your own. Focus on learning things that are applicable universally (e.g. you can learn a specific programming language, but ultimately you should learn the concepts of programming so you can use any languages/tools)
You have eyes and brains to read documentation to any tools, software etc on your own. Need to focus on the basics that allow you to understand that documentation and those tools etc
Sorry, your question got buried under conversation earlier
ashen lynx
@fickle hatch What is the source of toxic behavior anyway ?
fickle hatch
@ashen lynx tons of sources. I know plenty of companies which, due to how their work process was organized, were basically facilitating rumor spreading
Like, you could spread negative rumors about someone in your team to get ahead blah blah
Same stuff that happens in any community without adequate moderation
plucky hatch
blackfox lol
are people really this rude in gamedev
@fickle hatch
tbh i had 2 romenians saying to supervisors "no he didnt do that job" etc blah blah
about me
which were lies haha and it was indeed bad but if it were other lies then I wouldnt mind
fickle hatch
It depends on the company, but IT is a pretty toxic sorta industry in general
plucky hatch
what they did to you blackfox
plucky hatch
then how can you know
fickle hatch
I just do engineering and programming and the fun things. I know because I like to read about it and had friends with fortunate and unfortunate stories in IT.
plucky hatch
nice
i love stories
i thought there are only shy men in IT xD
inb4 blackfox meant halfof this discord
fickle hatch
We don't work together so it doesn't matter much
plucky hatch
lol that jelly writing msg for 20min
lusty turtle
It's an industry of people chosen based on how well they work with computers, rather than how well they deal with people. It often seems to translate towards being incredibly blunt or just plain bizarre. :P
fickle hatch
More like 6 hours by now lol
lusty turtle
THERE,
HAPPY?!
fickle hatch
I've seen Jelly type for past 6 hours
lusty turtle
Probably forgot that I was even typing in the first place
If I let it hang for that long
plucky hatch
@lusty turtle idk some IT people are rude cuz theyre not social enough
or some are from the same very reason very shy xD
fickle hatch
Engineering is more social I guess
At the previous company I worked at, I was doing control systems for a UAV
And unlike the software guys (who wrote aux software and such), I spent my time in the field with the mechanics
fickle hatch
And it was very fun. We had fun crashes and stuff. Impressive and fun to investigate.
They are aircraft mechanics 😛
But yeah
plucky hatch
yea obviously IT guys arent the most interesting ones
fickle hatch
I had to herd them around in the field, no kidding
plucky hatch
cuz they often only work and learn
fickle hatch
To make sure they didn't step into a dangerous zone or something
plucky hatch
lol
fickle hatch
I had to explain why they couldn't put their fingers close to the propellers (they would cut the finger off)
Make sure they don't get zapped with electricity from the on-board battery
And don't stand in the debris zone of the propeller
fickle hatch
(the zone where shrapnel from an exploding prop would fly)
plucky hatch
you are veri nice person
lusty turtle
LOL WAT @ explaining why the IT guys couldn't put their fingers close to the propellors
plucky hatch
they were mechanics
fickle hatch
@lusty turtle we didn't take IT guys into the field often, but when we did, they would risk doing stupid stuff, basic work safety
Nobody wanted to put fingers into the props, but they wanted to put them where the finger could easily slip.
Our UAV wasn't a tiny toy drone, it was a big thing that could maim you if you acted wrong around it
lusty turtle
Ok before I judge too hard - how "stupid" are we talking? Something most people would probably do without being informed or something closer to "How are you still alive?" territory
fickle hatch
They were not stupid, they were just very eager to touch things that they should not have
plucky hatch
lmao
fickle hatch
They all were the kinds of people who come into your cubicle and start touching your pen
No reason
Just touching it
lusty turtle
Just sheer, unbridled curiosity
plucky hatch
lol
fickle hatch
Childish curiosity, yes. Not a bad thing, not at all. Just don't put your hand where it'll get maimed
plucky hatch
yea and dont touch my things
fickle hatch
I don't mind that
But some of my things at that place carried voltage that wouldn't feel nice at all
plucky hatch
nice
leaden sorrel
seems most people would know not to do those things, IT or not
I work in IT and it would really annoy me that someone insulted me by assuming I lacked common sense because I worked in IT
fickle hatch
Speaking of career advice for control systems engineering - make sure you always leave last-resort if in your code that checks for really bad situations that probably won't happen
I saved a herd of cows from our UAV 😄
It was a really bad hardware failure and it tripped by altitude failsafe (it thought it was gaining altitude when in reality it was flying nose down to the ground)
lusty turtle
Jeez
fickle hatch
You don't get that in gamedev
lusty turtle
Nope
But I take that kind of "All normal assumptions have gone out the window" failsafe would probably benefit more than a few games
Or maybe not. Since their versions of that probably just lead to crashes.
... Granted, yours almost did too. If a very different kind of 'crash'.
(Holy shit!)
fickle hatch
Well, I designed our game to not crash (but soft-fail instead in a way that keeps it working) 😄
fickle hatch
Nah. We just had cows near our test range
steel creek
@ashen lynx promotion doesn't always imply increased wage. Also the very act of getting promoted is the achievement for which you invested the time just like you would in any " MMO of life " grinding it out
ashen lynx
Well, in my reality, promotion always tugs along income increase.
steel creek
mine too but that's not always the case for everyone
ashen lynx
The cases where you would consider going for higher rank, yet lower wages would be either potentially higher income(direct or indirect) in the future or better working conditions. In any case, the benefit of some sorts is in question. If you can show me a gentlemen, who accepted a promotion into a higher rank with a net loss for himself, I'd be happy to mock him about it.
One way, or another, material benefit is in question.
steel creek
Trump
And as banal a case he may be, many have done the same
Power isn't money
So please, by all means, begin the mocking.... xD
And a pedantic side bar: gentlemen are not the only ones who have jobs.
carmine mica
trumps pretty good
granite whale
ashen lynx
As as strange as the example is, it still lays down fairly well into pattern of with a net loss for himself., which is not the case. As for the latter part, I'm fairly convinced, that for an industry, where male employee percentage is above of what is in average military, addressing with such assumption is more than acceptable. The original conversation was about gamification of the job and lack of supportive evidence that it yields any kind of positive results.
steel creek
Your assumption is wrong. Dunno where you live but I am surrounded by women
Production is women centric
TDs and producers
The original conversation was just about gamification not the lack of supporting evidence that it doesn't work
That seems to be your current conclusion
ashen lynx
It is indeed
steel creek
Where is the evidence that I see is nothing but people in Industry using games as a vehicle to drive Real World jobs
Doctors doing surgery remote
Let's just start with the fact that been doing that for a decade already
ashen lynx
As an evidence for it working I can only take either financial reports, with decreasing spending of staff wages, with no impact on scope of the work done, or at least a survey that shows overall increased happiness of employees.
steel creek
I'm assuming you've never worked for any Corporation larger than a thousand employees
Gamification is the de-facto tactic
ashen lynx
Nope, I did not. The largest was around 500 souls.
ashen lynx
Zero connection between employee count in an entity and gamification.
steel creek
Not in my twenty years of industry in studios for film and tv. Nothing but.
flat gazelle
Gotta love when anecdotal fencing derives to rank pulling. :) good show
steel creek
I mean... the only experience we have is the experience we have
fickle hatch
I never worked at a place with 1000 people
How is it? (I mean, I obviously read stories, but I wonder if someone has a personal anecdote)
plucky hatch
hello
do you know any good audio book site?
i mean, audio books to learn programming for example
flat gazelle
I'm at a company with 14K people. What do you want to know?
flat gazelle
I used to work at a smaller company of 9k (EA)
plucky hatch
do you feel like you have a purpose, that you are relevant at all?
plucky hatch
what do you do in the games?
flat gazelle
VFX
fickle hatch
@flat gazelle How is the company structured?
How big are groups of people working on specific tasks etc
plucky hatch
i didnt pass the test for ubisoft in my country
:/
they asked me to do a game, i did everything they ask but they didnt like things like the slope against the physic objects
at least i did all the points and the performance was good, c++ 11+ sdl
fickle hatch
@flat gazelle I meant more like, what is the command structure 😄
flat gazelle
Yves wants a game done, he tells Serge and Christine to make it happen. Then we build games.
I'm not sure what you mean to be fair
fading yoke
@plucky hatch what kind of game did they want you to make? How much time did they give you?
steel prawn
@flat gazelle oh u work for ubisoft in germany? I got an offer from there but my dream was Epic Games now it comes true :)
plucky hatch
@fading yoke they wanted a bomberman in 2d, i did even fx and a lot of advanced stuff
you know, i coded a bomberman for mobiles and psvita and i earned some money with it on my own years ago, and then i also did this bomberman with unreal ,all before the test, i thought i did everything they asked but they were searching for excellence in all senses/ways, i dont understand their criteria
fading yoke
@plucky hatch That's amazing. When I apply to Ubisoft, I can't even get past the initial resume screening.
honest cipher
someone here i wont comment (for privacy) sent my resume to ubisoft
and i got the "application" registered. But didnt heard a thing since then
i would like to work on ubisoft due to their variety and tech focus (custom engines)
honest cipher
they are everywhere lol
finite mulch
FRENCH
honest cipher
there is even not one but 2 spanish ubisoft studios
finite mulch
Founded by French ppl then
It's like I recently learned Allegorithmic was French too
honest cipher
its kind of sad
but literally every single important spanish gamedev company from the 90s and early 2000s died
all of them
honest cipher
there are 2 total big gamedev companies in spain
one is mercury steam, currently doing trash and probably about to go to shit
the other is tequila games, they made Rime
finite mulch
someone here i wont comment (for privacy) sent my resume to ubisoft
Why didn't you send it yourself?
honest cipher
becouse he sent it as a "recomendation"
carmine mica
a job you enjoy more or a job you would be better at? what do
dusty jolt
enjoy more ofc
plucky hatch
enjoy more, then improve
ionic marlin
Can someone give me feedback to my career plan?
I am making a simple, but hope effective game, that will showcase my ability to get things done (finishing a game), creating systems (making the game fun with just a few elements) and storytelling (I am a writer and will put that into use on my game.
After I create the first good level of the game, I'm planning on going to kickstarter. If it goes well, good. I will use that money to finish the game. Else this game I'm making is going to my portfolio.
Whatever is the case, after the first game is finished (either one good level or all of the game) I will go to the next. On the next game (which will be a sequel to my first one) I will have all the elements of the first one + AI. Will take one more year to finish one good level (though hope it will take significantly less time, because by then I will have 1 year of experience in UE4) and try again my luck with a kickstarter. If that kickstarter fails too, I will also put that game on my portfolio.
By that time will I be able to apply to AAA companies as a designer, in case I can't make it as an indie?