Get on a royalties team
#career-chat
kindred mason
nova locust
lmao the current project i work on has won one
kindred mason
Or free/fun open source project
nova locust
im not trying to get a job per say
i work professionally right now so i dont have time for free / royalty projects
i technically work on project borealis which is volunteer work
i dont have that listed though
im freaking out over this because i had a recruiter from a large ass famous company reach out to me and when he ask i want it 👌
kindred mason
That's cool.
shadow kelp
@nova locust I would want to know on what employment basis you were involved in those projects you list
nova locust
like if i was contracted and such?
shadow kelp
full-time, part-time, contract, employee, royalty...etc
nova locust
ahh okay
vernal wolf
remote saffron
maybe it's just me but I find the basic design really irritating
why start it with fullscreen white + almost zero information?
also the light blue background + white text is hard to read
then you switch to white bg dark text again - why 🤔 ?
nova locust
hmm
yeah the only reason it has that large white space is because i've seen others do it
i do see how its a problem though
and yeah the about section is wide and hard to read
steel creek
Others might be doing it but they're also in the wrong
polar pulsar
I do not think the question is very ethical, but how do you define prices?
flat gazelle
Why wouldn't it be ethical?
My prices: How much I think my time is worth* the time it takes to perform the task
kindred mason
My personal opinions
But, if you're indie, and going into EA. Don't charge anything over $20
increase it as features/updates come in
But anything over $20 and it'll feel like a ripoff to the majority of the user base
Of course, don't make a super polished demo either. Because then the expectations are that EA Launch will have the same level of polish than that slice.
Take this from personal experience
honest cipher
DWVR was 10 dollars at launch
i later upped it to 15 when i "launched" and the ps4 version
carmine siren
@drowsy tundra Thank you for the pdf! Sorry was out on vacation and just seeing it now 😃
kindred mason
@honest cipher yeah, it all depends on the scope of the project
And obviously what the budget is
If it's solo, you can probably price if lower than slightly larger teams
At the same time, don't sell yourself short.
Just for reference, the game I've been working on for about a year now: Contagion VR: Outbreak launched last Friday. It was a trainwreck of a launch, but we had over 2000 sales over the weekend with only a 8% refund rate.
kindred mason
We were at 31% overall early Saturday, and now we're at around 58% as of today
honest cipher
there is a barrier to opening the wallet in the first part
1 dollar or 10 are effectively the exact same (on pc)
my new game will probably be 20 dollars
kindred mason
But the price we set was $19.99 with a 10% launch discount
honest cipher
if the 15 dollar doesnt sell.... put it on sale literally every time you can
the Udemy approach
kindred mason
A lot of folks thought it was a steal, but a good amount felt it was too much still
lilac walrus
I dunno, it depends on the game - some small games are just fine sitting at $10
the problem is standing out I guess
remote saffron
@kindred mason can/would you share the wishlist additions before release?
remote saffron
hehe 😄
kindred mason
I wonder if I can now and see the past
one sec
Oh, there's a tab for it
hmm
wtf
lol
4300 added this week alone
one sec
....
88000
kindred mason
it's actually 88,840 to be exact
is that good?
😉
If anyone is ever in need of someone to do their Marketing/Public Relations, I'm here for them
There are a lot of hold-outs due to how Launch went
remote saffron
I might don't remember correctly but according to an article I read the expected wishlist -> sale conversion was 25%, with another 25% sale coming from non-wishlisted customers 🤔
not for EA tho, that might make a difference
for first week
kindred mason
Ah
25%
then we failed hard
Or people are just unaware of release or holding out
remote saffron
that was the average but I'll try to look the article up
The average and median are both 2.4%.
for EA
each wishlist is worth approximate 0.5 sales goes for final release, that's a huge difference there
lilac walrus
I was under the impression the conversion rate was less than 1%
(for average developers)
same goes for things like 'youtube likes' and all that jazz
kindred mason
Yeah
If I had more money
I would have way more exposure
I was limited to the amount of marketing I could do since bossman didn't give me more money
😭
Hence I did whatever I could do for free
lilac walrus
therein lies the problem really, the exposure->money conversion has a pretty steep curve to get started
but you do what you can!
remote saffron
but you are around 2.4% so you kinda match the data from that article 😄 and it's not even out for a week yet
so for EA it's a pretty cool one if we can trust that guy
kindred mason
True, and I am pumping out hotfixes and putting out fires
My goal is to reach 75% by the end of this weekend
And I'll be satisfied until next month
remote saffron
nice job with the reviews 😄 I guess he modified it to recommended after you answered him?
steam reviews lol
polar pulsar
Oh sorry, my question was not clear. I mean freelance prices
lilac walrus
Steam reviews would have been an excellent feature if 75% of the people that leave them weren't utter morons
I get the impression that a large part of the user base you'd want to engage in the review system doesn't really engage with it at all
plucky hatch
I have seen reviews that say things such as: "Could not change screen resolution."
There is a working settings menu with this feature set. It has been properly tested by our team accordingly.
kindred mason
@remote saffron hehe. Yeah. It's alright. I am going to win them all over
Well.. I can't say all
Most of them though. I will make sure they understand the level of commitment and dedication that they will receive by helping fund the game in its early stages.
steel creek
90% of the time, 100% of the reviews are shit
shadow kelp
people are slowly realising that 'crowdsourcing' means 90% dickpics
ocean harbor
@kindred mason wishlist conversion rate will vary on discount you set during sale. If you set 50-75% off, selling literally for few dollars, conversion rate can be higher, but your revenue...
There where multiple mentions on GDC that you can have as much as 10 times difference or more in units sold vs added to wishlist.
remote saffron
also it's a bit brave to release your game in the middle of a steam sale 🤔
lilac walrus
there's practically always a load of stuff on sale now though
I'm not sure it makes the difference it used to
if anything, people tend to only buy during the sales now
remote saffron
I don't really get this tbh, when players are complaining about a game not having big enough discount, happens pretty often in steam
and the compare the price to old AAA games
lilac walrus
it's about value proposition
ocean harbor
I don’t know how often steam allows to put game on sale, like what is the frequency over the year. Why frequency is important is because they send notifications for production on sale from your wishlist
lilac walrus
you can get away with selling games and never putting them on sale so long as your price is right
if people feel there's a good value proposition for your product at that price, it'll sell
remote saffron
what I miss is that why people don't complain about e.g. a new fantasy book being expensive when they can buy war and peace for 1$
what makes games so special
lilac walrus
Factorio as an example has never been on sale - but at its price point it has sold over a million copies on Steam (and more again outside)
they nailed their value proposition
remote saffron
im perfectly fine with people waiting for sales
or for bigger discounts
but when they start to demand those
that's a bit sad
lilac walrus
people demanding your game be a certain price might be an indicator that your value proposition is wrong and that you're priced too high
take a look at Ark - when it was £15, it got fantastic reviews, but the more they pushed the price up, the worse those reviews got and the fewer sales they had
remote saffron
or that some people used to buy games for 1-2$ in sales and expect that they should get all games for that price 🤷
lilac walrus
Ark is a solid game for £15, I got a lot of mileage out of it
but for £55 or whatever it is now, I wouldn't even look at it
ocean harbor
@remote saffron basically yes
There are might be different reasons for that, like the same people might not be buying games at all without sales, or just 1-2 games a year
So they are not a viable customer to begin with
Imho steam sales are not good for anyone besides valve
There isn’t much value neither for devs nor for players
remote saffron
I think it is good for players in short term
same for humble bundle
they get games for cheap price
on the long run game quality will decrease tho, and certain people will start to write articles about shorter dev cycles being better and yeah, there we are
problem is too many games and too little time to play them and yet people don't want to make better games, they want to make more games quickly which works against everyone on the long term imo
honest cipher
allways put the game on the slightly expensive side, and then put it on sale every time you can
works for udemy
lilac walrus
doesn't work for the people on Udemy
it's the same deal - Udemy gets paid either way, the people who write those tutorials get shafted
honest cipher
Udemy does exactly that
they overprice the fuck out of every course
and then have it in permanent 95% off
becouse people are idiots
and it works
you can do the same but legit. Even if your game is a micro-indie, put it at 15 or 20 dollars
then just put it at 75% off or similar every time steam allows you
remote saffron
i would try to avoid being that shady tbh
ocean harbor
I find it a bit dubious that someone would buy your game but not play it
remote saffron
and some would play it but not buy it 😄
ocean harbor
Humble and other bundles is what’s started feeding G2A and similar services
lilac walrus
G2A and other services were spawned from cheaper regional retail boxes
they just adjusted with the times
they still for the large part work the same way; find region unlocked games, buy Russian (or whatever) keys, and sell them on at a premium to Euro / Aus / US users
ocean harbor
so you think that bundles don't contribute to those platforms?
I don't know the percentage of regional to games from bundles sold there, but this was talked about multiple times by different devs
as how with bundled games they can't track keys
lilac walrus
"so you think that bundles don't contribute to those platforms?"
that's is exactly the opposite of what I just said :/
they do obtain bundle keys
but most bundle sellers restrict how many keys they'll allow people to purchase (tracked by IP etc)
so it's not so easy to mass purchase keys from somewhere like Humble
the reality is they get keys from a number of different sources - often third parties
(or to put it another way, most of the games they sell will have never been bundled - those keys certainly came from somewhere)
lilac walrus
the idea that bundle sites are responsible for all these keys is just hyperbole pushed by a small number of indie devs
there have been cases where physical trucks full of disks have been stolen
honestly, the bulk of them are likely 3rd parties buying their local regional copies, amassing the keys, and selling them directly on
it's too easy to turn a moderate profit
honest cipher
in some limited cases, they actually ask the devs for the keys
green man gaming works like this
have you seen how gmg is allways 15-20% off?
thats becouse they buy the keys from the devs, and offer them the same cut as steam. Then they undercut steam by lowering their profit a bit
lilac walrus
well, they undercut Steam usually, to give the developer an incentive to work with them
but yeah, that can also be the case
honest cipher
what drives me mad is the russian key scammers
you release anything in steam, and 90% of your mails are russians posing as youtubers
honest cipher
to get free keys that go straight to g2a
lilac walrus
yeah
honest cipher
nah, 15 is too obvious
but ive seen them asking for 3-5 keys
wich is like "wait a second wtf you need 5 keys for a review"
also, the slightest hint of russian means scammer
on all the games ive released i still havent seen a single legit russian
sometimes they are complete idiots, and they embed an image in the email, and then they leave that image with a cyrillic name
or they have wrong english
for a guy in a 1st world country, trying to scam like that its not worth it
but this guys just spam every single game in steam
as long as 1 or 2 of them give them keys per day, thats already their wage
kindred mason
@ocean harbor aye. Not super worried about the conversion rate right now TBH. First need to worry about happiness levels :) then I can worry about raking in more sales. Which TBH, if people are happy, they flip reviews (or leave positive ones) then more WOM is out. More sales. More 💰 and more funding for team.
I doubt I am the only one that thinks this on the team and after our Post Mortem yesterday, I am hoping to see much more from the rest of them. If not, oh wells, I will do my very best until the end.
mental viper
How do you choose which reviews to flip?
kindred mason
@mental viper I don't. I just just my charm and silver tongue
mental viper
okay, seems like that will work 
kindred mason
I've already flipped easily 50% negative reviews
No seriously. It does.
It has.
Also, I am backing it up
With live streaming the whole process
So it's not just shit coming out of my mouth
mental viper
that starts to make sense
kindred mason
They are seeing results
First snooth things over with words. Then act upon the feedback given (Although at this point, it's all basically the same things)
Throw in some feature requests
And mood starts to get better overall
mental viper
thats what i was pointing at, how do you pick out the relevant feedback, because it might be contradicting itself
because different ppl want different things
kindred mason
You pick it based on the original vision of the game
But don't be afraid of stretching your views a bit either
mental viper
thx, thats what i thought
tulip bone
Hi, Im a one guy studio developing multiplayer cover shooter game. As one man i dont have too much resource(money) and I noticed the problem, i have built a mulitplayer game, but P2P, unfortunatley the Unreal cannot support host migration.
So could you advise solution for a limited user/time dedicated server service ?
Thank you for any help !
true oxide
Hello, greetings for everyone, I'm new here. I need some career advice and I think this is the good path to go. I graduated in Graphic Design last year and I am studying games independently (I actually had one game discipline in my graduation here in Brazil, and another in New Zealand as an exchange student). This is my portfolio: https://www.behance.net/mathewscavalcanti and as you can see, it looks like a "Jack of all trades" portfolio. I can't get a job because of no experience at all. So I'm kinda lost. My main doubt is: I recently discovered that I need more focus and to be more specialist in something, but at the same time, I perceive game as something that requires a lot of knowledges (this was actually one of the things that made me attracted for game developing). So, what should I do about it? Am I in the right path and I should just be more pacient? Or should I choose to be a level designer or environmental artist, or character artist, etc.?
fading yoke
@true oxide I was able to get a little experience by doing as many game jams as I could. Your game jam stuff can add to your portfolio, and the better the entry the better the portfolio
shadow kelp
@true oxide pick one thing for your portfolio, and do it extremely well to start with. You'll struggle to find work if you're just kinda ok at lots of things, instead of being very good at something
lilac walrus
^ this is both good advice
you've already acknowledged that your problem is as a jack of all trades with little to show, so the obvious thing to do is to fix that by emphasising once discipline and doing a lot more of it
distant scaffold
I await the day when Unreal, treats its engine like Minecraft built in free inside.
Till then. I'll sip my martinis and play poker professionally in vegas.
I still have a copy of my first Unreal from 1990's, I wonder if my win10 can fire up the old school unreal editor now.
lilac walrus
eh?
ocean harbor
Why jack of all trades is considered a problem?
flat gazelle
It's not. It's the last part of the statement that's the problem: "Jack of all trades, Master of none"
lilac walrus
if you're looking for a job though, most people are looking for a specific skill set
it's fine to be a 'jack of all trades' if you have that skill set
but the reality is that someone who has emphasised only that skill set at the expense of those that are not required is probably going to be a better candidate
honest cipher
its fine and a bonus to be a jack of all trades as long as you are master of something
you can know programming as an artist, and thats a bonus. But unless you are an actual GOOD artist, that will go nowhere
same exact thing in reverse
ocean harbor
@flat gazelle just for fun, full phrase is “Jack of all trades, master of none, better than master of one” look it up 😄
flat gazelle
ignoratio elenchi look it up
honest cipher
didnt Valve said that they preferred to hire people that knew a bit about everything, but still had a "main" skill?
neat jackal
I know that's what we do where I work
honest cipher
if i need to hire people, i would do that too
it improves cross-team communication a lot
but the main skill needs to be at a good level, or its worthless
ocean harbor
different companies do it differently, you obviously need some specialization as otherwise to which role you are even applying to?
but I had funny interview where people where really bent on hiring very specialized people
well, by Jack of all trades I assume a good grasp in area, not just - I've modelled a single character 5 years ago
neat jackal
Yeah I do the same as @honest cipher , know a bit of everything but 1 specialization
Makes life a whole lot easier
Though usually we mostly look for jack-of-all-trades in a certain area, for example know a bit of every art-related job but be specialized in animation, you don't also need to know about coding
ocean harbor
we had lead modeller like that and lead programmer
worked with couple of other folks who weren't specialized, but it wasn't a AAA, so mileage may vary
honest cipher
being generalist to some degree is what has helped me make my succesful games
while i have low art skills, i do know about art, and its let me kind of build stuff out of marketplace, or hire a freelancer to do the stuff
a lot of small scale things were done by me
for example most the FX in DWVR are marketplace packs dissassembled and rearranged into new effects
flat gazelle
Being a specialist has helped me have great job security. At any given time there's always a few AAA companies within biking distance looking for VFX artists.
ocean harbor
well, it depends on what you want to do in your career
flat gazelle
of course
ocean harbor
having 20 years experience in character modelling and animation doesn't bring you to closer to working on your own games
honest cipher
it hampers communication with other team members as you dont know wtf they are doing
ocean harbor
building 20 different games, even smaller ones, over the same time is a completely different story
honest cipher
but in AAA there is no issue, AAA does look for ultra-specialized people
ocean harbor
yeap
honest cipher
the value of generalists is mostly on smaller teams, where you will probably communicate with the programmer of the team directly as an artist
flat gazelle
Much like Valve, when I hire I look for T shaped skillsets
Artists communicate with coders in AAA as well. Just because you are specialized doesn't mean you are completely lost on other topics
ocean harbor
@true oxide taking into account above conversation you might want to decide first what you want to do. Working in gamedev and making games can be two very different paths, as in working on your own ideas and products or joining other teams.
It's not mutual exclusive but takes a toll nevertheless.
I would not call jack of all trades an ability to communicate technical subjects, tbh
the most typical jack of all trades is variety of tech artists positions
or guys who are building pipeline tools
the other examples are individuals, like dev of Papers Please and Super Meat Boy (two different people, solo devs)
remote saffron
Super Meat Boy was developed by 2 people
neat jackal
Yeah exactly, we look for jack of all trades because we're doing a lot of smaller projects in a small-ish team, so it's helpful if someone can quickly do something (like an animator quickly fixing a model while animating it instead of having to send it back to the modeler and waiting for an updated version)
flat gazelle
A coder and an artist. Almost like two different specializations 😉
honest cipher
also the age old marrigage of Coder + marketplace
ocean harbor
Or a game developer, almost like a specialization is CS
remote saffron
or the guy who can buy asset packs and release them on steam, maybe mix them with a tutorial 😄
honest cipher
CS doesnt show high performance C++, or "game" AI, or even graphics programming properly
ocean harbor
I just mean it as a generic deving for computer systems
@remote saffron had impression that it was a single dev. He was explaining how he worked on art for Binding of Isaac
But I stand corrected
honest cipher
they lucked out to a huge degree
flat gazelle
O.o
remote saffron
what they say makes about 0 sense today but whatever
flat gazelle
yes
remote saffron
I am not even sure if what they said made any sense ever
honest cipher
they are good games tho
remote saffron
does it make sense?
honest cipher
but they launched pretty much in THE exact moment
a FEZ type game wouldnt move 100 units in steam this days
Super Meat Boy probably could
after all Celeste is same genre and its been very succesful
remote saffron
FEZ was the worse imo, and would not
good question if braid would, pretty cool game but still
remote saffron
that's a bit totally different
remote saffron
anyway cool for those guys, their name alone is free press now
honest cipher
if it launched, people would go "yawn, yet another puzzle platformer" and wouldnt move 1000 units
yeah
Jonathan blow has been doing really cool shit
after the money of Braid, he made The Witness (this time with a much bigger team) and its actually a great success
now he is making a new programming lenguage for the new game XD
i wonder where it will go. it seems very interesting
remote saffron
that's the kinda crazy ting you can only do if you have crazy amount of money
honest cipher
yeah, he is 100% loaded
Witness has sold a ton
even if he almost goes bankrupt to make it
remote saffron
braid was enough for him to go on for 7 years with team
nice that some people are there cause they can make cool games without that much of a money pressure tbh
remote saffron
also supergiant games, cool that we have guy like those, at least they will make cool games
honest cipher
when he had nearly the whole game done, is when he started bringing artists
yeah
but i didnt like Pyre one bit
after i really liked Bastion and Transistor
flat gazelle
Man I would end myself if I had to spend 7 years on the same game :S
ocean harbor
dev of Binding of Isaac had quite some pressure, he mentioned that he had to work at the shop as gamedev wasn't bringing enough money
remote saffron
pyre was discounted pretty quickly
ocean harbor
it's only after Binding of Isaac he got something substential
remote saffron
and I don't have reliable data but I checked on steam spy from time to time and it did not look that popular to me 🤷
honest cipher
i just dont think pyre looked good
nice art, nice music, but its a "sports game???"
most people went like "wut"
remote saffron
pyre from a no name dev tho
would have made like 0 press
and 40 copies on steam
honest cipher
as the fans probably expected more like what bastion and transistor are, wich are semi-action game 2d where you roam around
@remote saffron without a doubt
becouse i have seen it
im the most succesful of the indies around me at the spanish convention
i think one or 2 are actually better, but the mayority arent
the thing is
my game is NOT the best
not by a long shot
but you see people with an awesome couch coop game
remote saffron
i kinda liked pyre after playing it tho (first impression was meh), and im happy that some people can make unqiue / experimental games like that
remote saffron
haha I'm working on a platformer
honest cipher
RIP
remote saffron
RIP me
honest cipher
actually seriously RIP
you need to be better than celeste and meat boy to have any chance
remote saffron
ehh platformer can be many thing
honest cipher
and THEN also market it against a crowd that goes "yawn, yet another indie plataformer"
remote saffron
my game is nothing like those
honest cipher
is it 2d?
remote saffron
3D actually but you move in 2D but along splines
remote saffron
good question 😄
honest cipher
becouse if it does, then RIP
i do think there is space for a 3d platformer
like, an actually good one
look at the attention A Hat In Time and Yooka Laylee got
remote saffron
i have some action/rpg/exploration stuff too tho, I wonder if I should try to come up with something better
and not sell it as platformer
ocean harbor
are you making it as a pathway for more complex/larger project?
remote saffron
nope
if it does not pay off at all (which is the scenario im counting with) i'll have to go back to full time job or do contract stuff)
I already worked on it 2 years after work and half year fulltime
and we are a team of 4, a teammate worked 1.5 years fulltime already, he worked full time the longest 😄
ocean harbor
Well, financial is just one side. I mean more for your feature projects. If it financially fails and you can figure out why, you could re-build some parts, address the issues and ship as another game, in much shorter time.
or as a sequel, it's not a necessity to have a successful prequel
remote saffron
when I was a kid and wanted to make a video game i did not understand anything about being financially successful so I can't fail the original plan if I finish the game cause that did not contain anything about money 😄
what I often wonder is how much worse it is to make own game instead of working for others as programmer regarding CV is
I had 2.5 years programming experience when I switched to full time indie
but now I do a lot of non-programming as well
I wonder what my chances will be next time I look for a full time job
honest cipher
@remote saffron i am answering to lead and senior programmer job offers
since i released my game in PS4
sadly, you have really low possibility of EVER making a success as you are right now @remote saffron
you havent released anything
the thing is that your first or second project will probably have some huge flaws
for example not marketing it right
it happened with Deathwave for me
honestly, i would suggest you grab a small part of the game, and release it as-is, or something of the sort
just release SOMETHING on steam
to see what happens
remote saffron
I have a pretty good idea of what would happen 😄
i would have been lucky to have 5-10 sales 😛
honest cipher
btw, this is why i monitor the releases of everyone in the chat quite a lot
i take note of what works and doesnt
to keep in mind for my own games
remote saffron
do you plan to apply for a job but still keep developing own games?
honest cipher
i have a minimum salary for what i would do it
and its super high
so unless i get a very high salary i wont accept the jobs
remote saffron
I see, makes sense
honest cipher
currently my level of spoken english is hurting my chances of lead programmer type jobs, so im going to leave for the UK whatever happens
after all im freelancer,so i can just go rent a flat somewhere in the UK and move there
flat gazelle
I'd keep that to myself in interviews because that statement right there just killed any chance you had of me hiring you. (Not that I hire coders often :P)
honest cipher
of course XD
remote saffron
I think they find that out pretty quickly tbh
flat gazelle
Yeah, people who are in it for the money tend to not last long
honest cipher
what i do want more than anything is experience
i think there is not much more i can learn and continue as a freelancer or indie doing random jobs
flat gazelle
Nah, the language thing can be worked around.
honest cipher
its mostly that im already succesful with freelancing + my own games
so its not like i need any job for at least 3 years from now
why would i take a job that eventually ends as a considerably pay cut? not worth it
true oxide
I just read the messages right now, I think I could learn a thing or two, and I am also going to watch Indie Game The Movie, thanks guys 😄
honest cipher
@remote saffron on the "2d platformer-ish game", i think there is room for a 2d platform/action/metroidvania game
remember Guacamelee?
also hollow knight, tho taking more clues from dark souls
i do think there is space for a "classic" totally-not-castlevania game with action combat
i think that could work well
remote saffron
hollow knight is super popular
I kinda aimed for a middle ground but I am not sure anymore if that exists in the first place
honest cipher
it deserves it
the only game of this kind i know is guacamelee
wich has an "character action" combat
like bayonetta, devil may cry, etc
combos and fancy moves
meanwhile Igarashi is doing Bloodstained with is a striaght 3d remake of the castlevania games
wich is a damn shame
becouse they decided to not advance the gameplay
btw, didnt the studio behind guacamelee floopped like SUPER hard on their next game after it?
remote saffron
is Bloodstained 3d? 😮
honest cipher
it is
but its a 2d camera and 2d plataformer
just 3d models
they took the EXACT same gameplay from the modern castlevanias, and added 3d models
i think its a shame, there is a lot of space for a more action-y combat
with combos and stuff
remote saffron
I guess they can allow not to be innovative
honest cipher
i mean, they funded it on nostalgia
so makes sense
for an example of 2d action combat, guacamelee is probably king, but check out nier automata 2d sections
they flow fairly well, something like a middle ground of both could do well
distant scaffold
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faxanadu was better then Castlevania just worse marketing.
The character movement in Faxanadu was way smoother, and had more responsiveness.
stray dune
hello , i have simple question , can i getting realistic quality of game level, not archviz with ue4 in water shadow particles lights, etc like Cryengine 5 ?? becauese of i was a cryengine user for long time, and i did not watch any realistic game project in current time with UE4 like a cryengine and frostbite and anvil game engine.🙂
karmic kayak
untold granite
Saw this on @winter elm's website (linked in #looking-for-work), but it may be good as a general tip too: Don't forget your country code if you list a phone number as a method of contact on your listing/website/etc. 😃 (that way people outside of the US/your country could still reach if they really wanted to call you)
winter elm
Thanks for spotting that. Site's still very under construction
untold granite
No problem, I love how the site looks/feels for the rest ❤️
plucky hatch
Any tips for an interesting Kickstarter campaign?
ionic mica
don't do it until you know it will be successful
do a newsletter first
do the math on the numbers
and go from there
karmic kayak
Kickstarter is pretty harsh thesedays. esp for "indies" or small, unknown devs.
undone arrow
the first comment on that vid tho hahaha
yeah kickstarters are harsh and most of the time fails
karmic kayak
But i'd say try it there are plenty of articles in the web from projects whi did it and shared their storys. Waiting until you know it will be successful is not an option, since by then you probably won't need KS money anyways because then you would have a publisher funding your project.
Just do it. But do it right.
undone arrow
so far ours has been failing
ionic mica
just do it is the worst advice
basically leaving it down to luck
how can you do anything without data backing up your decisions
it just always comes down to luck
it is a terrible idea to gamble when your livelihood depends on it
karmic kayak
Well. I said do it right. Which of course means he/she should do all the homework needed first
ionic mica
ya but how do you know you are doing it right?
karmic kayak
reading articles from devs sharing their KS Story, speaking to dev who made a KS campaign, build a community first etc
ionic mica
people are waay to confident in their ability to judge those things. then there is dunning-kruger effect
data helps you to ground your decisions in reality, not your own biased dreams
karmic kayak
for data you have to speak to people who did an KS
ionic mica
well, you are not concerned about their data, your are concerned about how your own game/ks campaign will perform
karmic kayak
also i'm not sure if dunning-kruger would apply tbh hehe
ionic mica
how sticky your material is
how good your trailers are
how much engagement you get on social media
if the press picks anything up
if you can build a lasting community
if you don't have anything, you are most likely going to fail
karmic kayak
Yep. No doubt.
ionic mica
dunning-kruger applies to everything that needs competence
karmic kayak
Thats the Do it right part hehe
ionic mica
how do you know that you are doing it right?
reading 3 articles and suddenly you are an expert?
karmic kayak
a KS campaing will take at least a couple of months preparing work
ionic mica
still down to luck
karmic kayak
what? When did i say i'm a expert?
ionic mica
if you are just preparing it in the void
you said dunning-kruger had no effect
implying that there was little to no competence needed to build a ks campaign
and doing it right is all that matters
karmic kayak
I said i'm not sure if dunning-kruger applys... since its a disorder
has nothing to do with illusory superiority...
ionic mica
it is a cognitive bias, not a discorder
cognitive biases apply to most people
or all, even
karmic kayak
Sure. Still whats the point tho? If you (not personally) have all the skills and whatnot needed for an successful game, you could pitch to a publisher easy. KS is for people with an idea but w/o the standard securitys ... i guess.
he/she asked for help/info on a KS
ionic mica
part of collecting data (pretty much for everything), is to learn what works and what doesn't
so basically you build experiments with the intent to learn
if you know what works because you can prove it
and you collect numbers along the way, you can predict your success or failure a lot more accurately
so building a ks campaign on stuff that works rather than on stuff that you have no clue about whether it will work or not is decent advice to me
also build a community that was part of those "experiments" to help you gauge the numbers is also solid advice
remote saffron
step 1: be lucky
step 2: profit
remote saffron
because most people can't do step 1 right 😄
well quality has a say in that, I would say if all the crap counts which was released to kickstarter 5% is way too much
karmic kayak
if you do a blood sacrifice chances are up by at least 66% 😄
remote saffron
I would say it's less than 0.0001%
and you know you can get lucky with a potato salad
if you filter out the crap than the 5% might be accurate, idk 🤔
btw @karmic kayak Quern was in the lucky part 😄
I kinda tried to figure out their KS campaign, they had more luck than anything else
they did a lot opposite to the way they were supposed to
they started with 0 followers
remote saffron
most likely
and also a 9gag post which ended up in the main page 🤷
which is totally random
brought their trailer view from 2k to 20k or something like that
karmic kayak
I would be interested in how much of the KS money they actually got. I've spoken to a guy from BFG and he said their campaigns got around 2/3 of the final figure. Due to chargebacks or CC's couldn't be charged at the time the campaign ended.
- BFG = black forest games
karmic kayak
yeah. sadly the good times for small guys on KS are probably over
on the other hand there are still successful projects made by unknown or small guys
like Trüberbrook for example.
remote saffron
I wonder if KS helps regarding marketing or not 🤔 but it would be really complicated for me as I can't even do one in my country
karmic kayak
From what i've gathered a campaign can actually help with marketing. In fact some of the hilariously low goal campaigns might be just a marketing thing to begin with.
There are also Publishers who explicit looking for KS campaigns..as it serves them as a evaluation of risk.
Kalypso Media does it this way.
remote saffron
yeah i'm thinking of running a hilariously low goal campaign
but it would be too much trouble just to be 100% ignored so idk yet
I only want to do stuff when i'm okay with the worst case scenario as that is the most likely one 😛
karmic kayak
Yeah. If you can't setup an KS from your country, you would need to workaround quite a bit.
stable pulsar
anyone can suggest publisher in Germany ?
karmic kayak
That really depends on several factors.
Your Game, Your Team, Do you need funding? etc
plucky hatch
I'm interested in getting an internship at epic games, what should I do?
there's a page on epicgames.com for jobs, but not internships
feral tulip
http://arosgame.com I'm alone making that game, give me your best advice, I'm about to put in place the sound and make a trailler after! The game should be out very soon for free
blissful wave
Hi. My name is Joe. I am a Creative Idealist currently working on the game, Logic Blade. If you wish to learn more bout the details of this game you are more than welcome to visit my Facebook page titled "This is Logic Blade". I am currently in desperate need of a business partner who has experience in development. I am willing to work over the internet if need be but not willing to work outside of the U.S.A. I would require that Logic Blade be developed and released as envisioned because this game has become a passion of mine. If anyone can offer any advice, guidance, and/or wishes to get involved I am soo ready to hear from you.
plucky hatch
Creative idealist? Is that a real job title?
flat gazelle
It's the new word for Idea Guy
urban stump
Which means no, it is in fact not.
mortal raven
Wow. That's a thing.
Use your INTENTION and EMPATHY to CREATE IDEALS(TM.)
100% Not a cult.
spice dagger
plucky hatch
To what healing? Healing what?
remote saffron
HP of course
I am pretty sure it's just the character description of the level 1 healer
patent mountain
im pretty sure he meant he comes up with creative ideas
@blissful wave you are me like 2 years ago, until I ran into this tutorial series and just took the game dev into my own hands https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pmPb_TWG-8
unless of course you have actual money to invest in your project then in that case you aren't me 😂
lime osprey
I’m creating my first game development studio, any advice?
mellow valley
Best of luck, you have a lot of work ahead of you haha
inner spire
make sure you plan everything out BEFORE starting
ripe coral
prototype everything
split quail
We too are building up our first development studio. I have 10 years server experience so we just put up Jira and confluence for bug tracking and documentation.
However. What do you guys recommend for version control on UE and we can't afford Maya right now so is Blender any better with UE than it used to be. We can get subscription of Maya but we would rather not until we can just outright purchase it. We need 4 copies. :/
compact mango
Better than it used to be? What time frame are you talking about here?
neat jackal
@split quail For source control with UE4 I really recommend Perforce. It's easy to set up, plus it has engine integration making it a lot easier to use. Uses check-out and check-in, instead of only check-in like GitHub, so when someone else is editing a file that will also be shown so you don't accidentally edit the same file. Free for up to 5 team members, see #source-control for more info.
As for using Blender with UE4, I absolutely love it. I recommend setting up your starter scene to be used for LODs, but then it works fine. Make sure though you set the size right, otherwise when importing into UE4 the asset can be way too small or way too large.
split quail
Thank you river
outer kayak
We want to start working on an "On-site VR game" where you have battles against AI characters. Anyone have experience in this?
flat gazelle
@split quail Yeah, love it or hate it, Perforce is the way to go
split quail
We we're going to use Subversion but we don't experience with either. It's why were coming to the experts. We we're a group of modders for a couple games but all together we realized we could do better. Ha. So you will hear from us more often. I will try to keep my responses and questions channel appropriate. Just didn't know where to start.
split quail
Well glad I asked!!!
rapid olive
How do i make a 3d model (Total Noob)
remote saffron
step 1: learn to google whenever possible
btw use third party apps like blender or 3ds max or maya
using them is a bit complicated, but you can find enough material in the internet to learn the thing
but it's not something people can just tell you how to do in a discord channel 🤷
lunar summit
Any advice for someone looking to move from network engineering into game dev? I'm a few years out of school, went for networking and sysadmin, have got some great experience with large enterprise/global networks under my belt, but that all seems like pretty tangenetial experience. I've spent the past few months learning unreal, grabbed a few marketplace assets to tweak and integrate with each other and I'm picking it up fairly quickly, but I need to get back into the workforce soonish. Any thoughts on where my skillset may be most usefully applied? I'm not opposed to networking work, it just seems mostly unneeded outside of large studios that have a corporate environment to cater to.
olive timber
So these jobs I see everywhere "Unreal Blueprint Programmer Needed" what exactly are they looking for the person to be able to do? Is it Blueprint work in one area of UE like in char and anim bp's? Does it include like Material BP's as well? Or is it just every facet of UE that involves bp's? Im learning unreal Im trying to gauge what side of Unreal gives me the best chance in the future to get hired. Essentially are studios looking for jack of all trade programmers, or master of one?
digital gate
If there's a blueprint graph, they might be referring to it. The animation graph (and its components), the material graph, and the Behavior Tree graph are NOT blueprint. Note that AnimBP do contain BP, and UMG also has a BP element.
If they just say Blueprint Programmer your only guarantee is that they want you to know BP. They likely don't mean UMG or AnimBP though. Just ask for clarification.
I try to keep my knowledge of UE4 fairly balanced
olive timber
Ok makes sense
compact mesa
I've made a video on how to set up shop as a solo indie game developer using UE4. I cover the tools, their costs and my character creation pipeline. First YT video, so bear with me. Feedback appreciated!
https://youtu.be/sz2ZnRSp2YE
plush comet
So hello, I just joined this discord and I got to ask you guys somethign
I'm not a good artist
I don't like learning C++, but I get more energy learning C#
problem is Unity engine doesn't work for crap and the community....yea
Thing is I got a lot of help from the unreal engine community
from the website I'm learning C++ and unreal engine from
So in extension you guys are awesome 😄
and unreal engine is free and you only give epic games money after you make money
But like I said, I don't like learning C++, massive headaches learning ,i'm not a good artist, but you unreal community is awesome as hell
should I stick with Unreal engine and learn C++?
digital gate
I'd recommend pushing through it, if you are making progress learning C++.
plush comet
@digital gate damn fast response! keeping what you said in mind ma man
somber ruin
Do you guys ever get stuck as to what to do next?
digital gate
In what sense?
restive anvil
If it's in terms of what to learn or what to create, yeah, all the time
dusk mesa
Ditto. Seems like everything either has been done or is already in progress. LOL
rose path
or you could stick to math instead; gpu gems and what not
rose path
I dont know what to do; I love game dev but also like backends and making apps for the mobile or the web. Not sure if I want to try gamedev again. Probably will try finishing gpu gems 1-2-3 within next year
hybrid phoenix
I really can't relate on not having original ideas in the slightest, honestly
I've got more than I care to have
somber ruin
I'm kinda at the end of what I can accomplish solo for my project and I don't know what to do next. I guess is try and find a team but I have no idea how to do that.
rose path
You can try throwing some money on marketplace
somber ruin
Money on marketplace?
I'm beyond what the marketplace can provide me
I've pitched my game to a lot of people, from retired producers of Ultima online to programmers of killer instinct. I get really good reactions from everyone, and they all say I have something extremely viable and fresh. But going from a prototype to full-fledged game is something I have no idea about.
patent mountain
@somber ruin you are never at the end of what you can accomplish solo... there is so much you can do solo... but you also nees to have focus and not overscope (like i have the habit of doing) so you arent stuck 2 years working on something
you can make small.scope games.and sell on steam
alone
i took a break from my main project to make.something smaller i could release to get my name out there, get some credibility, and market experience
rose path
Art's missing?
somber ruin
@patent mountain Yeah thats true, but the scope is where it should be for the game to be its best. Not too large, not too small.
And it would take me many years to finish solo.
@rose path I need artist, animators, vFX, sound, networking, maybe another programmer.
patent mountain
nah you can totally do it (and be depressed and cry in the corner various time throughout the process) 😭
rose path
Well you can start the networking and the other programmer then :p
Or recruit someone who wants
somber ruin
I could do networking, then never stop. It's like a full time job.
dusty jolt
Rescope your project
patent mountain
convincing plot
somber ruin
I've been thinking about crowdfunding. I was thinking i could get a semi polished solo kickstarter made by december
patent mountain
make a "prelude" to your project that is much smaller in scope?
dusty jolt
It does not sound it
somber ruin
i was able to push out all the gameplay programming in less than three months
somber ruin
I guess I'll try to find people to make a team, then push to kickstarter.
rose path
I'm in for a scalable backend. .netcore2 or spring boot you decide
tropic patrol
Does anyone have any advice how to prepare for a job in computer science? I’m hoping to get a job at Intel right after college, cause I’m a senior in highschool now
kindred mason
First, get through your CS Program
You might not even like CS
Sophomore/Junior Year, look at internships at Intel
You might realize that working at Intel sucks
rose path
Intel doesn't do programming as a main thing you know
kindred mason
?
rose path
And why Intel again? Since you don't know particular department
kindred mason
Intel definitely have CEs
rose path
@kindred mason its a hardware company on the core
rose path
I'm going to school for CE and Informatics and the main bulk is not programming
kindred mason
??
rose path
Its hardware and it always will be. You get down to the wire. Microinstructions nano instructions, assembly then C
kindred mason
Strange program you're going into
rose path
Check IEEEs suggested curriculum for Computer Engineering
rose path
I'm following that and its a 5 year diploma
kindred mason
But stating that the bulk of CE is not programming...that's silly
rose path
Strictly programming is done by colleges most of the time
kindred mason
Regardless, the question put out was if Intel had jobs for programmers
And yes, they do
rose path
You're more focused towards hardware, linear algebra, with a choice to be gravitated towards software
It has jobs sure thing
Does vhdl count as programming job?
olive timber
Does anyone in here work for a game studio (or has in the past)? Im basically wondering what the demand in the industry is for UE programmers and what level you have to be at before even indie studios will consider you hire-able. Also, Is it better to learn the VS/C++ side of UE out of the gates, or is that something you can ease into after learning Blueprints?
digital gate
what's your level of xp @olive timber
olive timber
Well im just getting started in UE for the most part.
Im just trying to get a heading
kindred mason
I am not sure that the demand has been sated for UE4 programmers.
But I feel like more technical aspects, especially engine devs (or at least those with experience modifying the engine to meet demands) are super rare
You get get by with just Blueprints knowledge in most Indie Dev teams.
C++ won't hurt you though
digital gate
Do you have any plans for formal education?
olive timber
So then its fair to say you have to be strong with C++ to get hired at bigger studios
digital gate
IME the entrance tests for bigger studios will be in C++, and you should be really comfortable with it.
olive timber
@digital gate I dont really. Was planning on learning at home for the most part. But that could change based on information I get about this
regarding the formal ed. question
digital gate
Right. Well I'm basically you in a few years.
kindred mason
Plenty of Homebrew programmers doing well for themselves here
olive timber
ok well thats encouraging
digital gate
Been taking interviews at the bigger studios, no offers yet though. I was hoping to come off my first actual studio (remote) contract of a substantial length and see if I could get hired on with a bigger studio.
olive timber
Damn. So its pretty tough with the big guys then. I figured as much
digital gate
Well I'll throw you an example.
Take a pointer to the first element of an array of bit-packed structures, interpret each structure as a set of fixed-point numbers, and do game-relevant calculations to that data. No libs. Print debugging.
olive timber
Ehh yeah thats not too bad actually. Dont know what bit-packed structures are exactly but everything else I know for the most part
digital gate
They're not all like that, though.
Anyway, if you're comfy with that sort of thing, you ought to do ok. Just gotta get to the interview in that case.
olive timber
Ok cool. Thanks a lot for the info. Big help 
shadow kelp
definitely don't bother with blueprints if you want to get job, might as well get stuck in with C++
lilac walrus
blueprint is fine if you want to work in scripting / tech design
for programming, you will need C++ exposure though
shadow kelp
well, the initial question asked about programmers...in which case, definitely C++
restive root
Formal education isn't necessarily required. I've interviewed and hired several programmers over the last few years for various studios who don't have formal education. For entry / junior level programmers, I expect a decent grasp of whatever language we're hiring them for (C++, C#, Python etc) or a solid understanding of another language and a demonstration that they can transfer those skills to other languages. I'm also very interested in how you work in a team and how you solve problems.
If you haven't been working in the industry recently, I want to see projects you've been doing in your own time and we'd talk about how you did X, if you thought about Y etc (basically I want to see you're enthusiastic and want to learn).
Mostly though, be patient and just keep improving your skills. It can take a while to get your first job.
honest cipher
@restive root any recomendation to build a CV? i never needed one but i get asked for noe
one
kindred mason
ROFLsauce
All these tryhards
You don't need C++ knowledge to get a programming job for UE4 positions
Unless it's obviously stated
In their job description
Which wasn't the question
honest cipher
i wouldnt ever hire a guy that only knows blueprints
and i dont see any company that would
unless thats for a designer position
kindred mason
Well, you also don't really have a decent sized studio man
digital gate
You can absolutely find UE4 work that's BP only.
honest cipher
but more on the design part i think
digital gate
Hell, there's probably places that want BP only. BP specialists, even.
kindred mason
The original question was if you can get by with only BP knowledge for UE4 jobs and the DEFINITE answer is YES
digital gate
For some weird twisted logic that BP only people are better at BP by default, or something.
kindred mason
Not every job, but that wasn't the question
digital gate
However, if you aspire to work in the industry at large, I'd definitely say you need C++.
kindred mason
There are plenty of studios that will hire a programmer with primary (or only) BP knowledge
Right, it all depends where you want to work at
And what their requirements are
digital gate
Ok, sure. Most of the places I've seen that are BP only could only loosely be described as studios.
Curious about all these BP places though.
kindred mason
I don't know, I've worked for 3 contracts on 6+-sized studios that only did BP work
And some of these studios have made $3mil+ in revenue from their products
digital gate
Well good for those 3 studios
honest cipher
the only cases where ive seen a heavily BP project were places where the designers did those
they still had programmer doing C fixing stuff behind the designers
digital gate
I know there's plenty of BP work. I just disagree there's a large amount of quality projects to work on where it'll be BP only.
kindred mason
I don't think anyone's said that though
digital gate
When you grasp at straws to justify BP being viable on its own as a career path, you imply C++ should be avoided. In reality, learning C++ if you don't know anything but BP will make you a better BP programmer, and will open more opportunities for you.
kindred mason
That's true. No one is saying that though.
kindred mason
Well, I guess it's not NOT what I am saying either. It all depends on the goal of the person.
Someone who just knows BP can definitely get jobs out there and be successful
honest cipher
but he will have a really low ceiling
of just a lowest tier of gameplay programmer
kindred mason
Depends
At one point last year I was making $11k/month
Again, it depends on what you can do and who needs stuff done
honest cipher
again, if its for a designer position where you do other stuff, like mission design or puzzles, BP is real fine
damn thas nice money
digital gate
yeah, grats on that.
kindred mason
Plenty of people out there that just need stuff done. They don't care if you are a C++ god or not
digital gate
Let's wait for phil, he's been typing a good response
kindred mason
I know, he's response is going to be gosu
honest cipher
but in your case, victor, you do know C fine
i just dont think a BP only guy will be any good as i dont think he will know the stuff behind everything
restive root
Sorry guys, I've just been multi-tasking 😃 I'm not gonna go into the Blueprint vs C++ debate. Each has their own benefits.
@honest cipher CV for a programmer? Keep it relatively short (less than 2 pages) and don't try and be too fancy - the people reading it will be busy so they need to be able to quickly identify the important points. Make sure you list the projects you've worked on and what your responsibilities were. I'd also normally write a short list of languages and frameworks / systems used with each project. E.g.
Project 1 at <Company Name>:
Some details about the project. It's OK to say how well it sold / was received if you're proud of it, but focus on what you did such as "Created property binding system for UI. Developed a modular AI system for rapid prototyping and variety. Built an interface for the studio to monitor game health in live ops" (don't be afraid to show off a little, but don't appear arrogant)
Tech: C++, Unreal 4, MySQL, NodeJS
You will probably be asked about everything you've written down, so be honest :)
If you've worked on any non-game projects that you think are interesting, put them in and don't be afraid of putting in hobby / unreleased / unfinished projects if you're proud of them. Don't go over the top though, The purpose of the CV is to say "I have the required skills" where as the interview is the opportunity to talk about your experience. Likewise, feel free to add personality but the real purpose of the CV is to clearly show skills you have.
Knowledge of project planning tools or techniques is also good if you have any. I always prefer someone who understands why these are important for the company and have an interest in learning more (these people tend to want to move on to more senior / lead roles which is always encouraging).
Make sure there is a link to some videos or sample projects.
kindred mason
Aye, but, as long as we just don't discount BP as a viable solution to a problem
In this case, getting hired on to a game dev programming position.
digital gate
Yeah, fine.
honest cipher
thanks @restive root . Any recomendation for software to make it have a good layout? the one i had was on gdocs and was horrid
restive root
@honest cipher Not really. Word, Pages, Google Docs, LaTeX are all valid. Just don't try and make it fancy unless your a graphic designer who understands layout properly. Better to keep it simple and readable.
honest cipher
thanks
restive root
Personally, I really dislike getting CV's like this. Telling me you think your 8/10 in 'Math' doesn't actually tell me anything at all. Use the space to briefly explain the work you did, from that I can work out your competencies.
restive root
(just a screenshot from a resume template - not an actual CV for anyone worried about me giving out persinal info)
ocean stirrup
Do you guys have any advice for a writer who's trying to get some gigs with developers
kindred mason
@ocean stirrup PM me
restive root
@kindred mason Within the first 10 seconds I found the bits I was looking for. Looks like you have a good range of skills and lots of experience. Good to see a couple of non-programmer ones on there (something to talk about at interview so we can just check if your personality would fit in with the team). Maybe I'd reduce the number of non-game projects a bit just to keep the relevant information more in focus. Basically, a good example :)
Only thing I would add is a short section about what you want out of a new role or what you'd like to focus on, but that can also be done through cover letters and emails etc.
kindred mason
With resume/portfolio
Ah, sweet. Yeah, if I redid my resume now, most of the non-gamedev related stuff would go away anyway.
karmic kayak
x / x is always silly
same for those people who give themselves points
e.g. 70/100 in Photoshop
rose path
I'd say summary wouldn't need to be there if you send it to a company , cover letter optionally....maaaaybe
Also, I'm not familiar with gaming industry, but most other cs jobs keep a 1 page limit
Here's mine, roast me
I'm constantly updating it tho, here's current ver
kindred mason
@rose path aye, agreed. Summary on Cover Letter is definitely the way to go in the USA
But, other countries may have other customs and you have to take that into account
Um
So, first off, you have 2 blank pages
Is that intentional?
hybrid phoenix
Everything else aside for a second, I find your CV hard to read
Like, lack of spacing between divisions, it looks like a massive wall of text
Split it up a bit more, visually
And stuff like this
The spacing, indents and font sizes don't make sense at all
So what's on it may or may not be fine, but it's not easy to find what you're looking for and it's not nice to read through
steel creek
I have never seen a resume without a cover letter for anyone that I've hired regardless of what place on the planet they come from.
If you can't write a letter to articulate why you're seeking the job and what skills you offer me and why we should hire you then what am I looking at the rest of your resume for
flat gazelle
And if it's a generic cover letter not tailored to the job you are applying for, it's a one way ticket to the bin.
tacit siren
i've seen a few "BP specialists" looking for work
lists 5-7 years experience with UE blueprints, and no c++ competency
i'd never in a hundred years hire anyone who spent half a decade in BP and never had the motivation to dive into c++
hybrid phoenix
Personally, I take it as a challenge to see what I can do in BP when people tell me it's impossible 😛
digital gate
Yeah, like not bothering to learn all the tools that should matter.
hybrid phoenix
I know a bit of C++, I really damn hate it
digital gate
Just utter disdain for the fact that learning C++ can directly improve your ability to do things in UE4.
hybrid phoenix
So if I can do it with BP, I'm damn well going to do so
digital gate
Don't know C++? Need to learn how something works that's a new feature? Trial and error. Pray to google.
Do know C++? Need to .... ? You might also try and dig through the source.
tacit siren
also, there is the fact that epic documentation is far from stellar, and you're often stuck with reading the source to figure out a way through a tough problem
hybrid phoenix
I mean, I can generally read C++
Same as HLSL/GLSL
I can read it
I just hate writing it
And don't do it a lot
digital gate
Don't know C++ and something is awkward to do in BP? Too bad. Need a feature that isn't avail to BP? Too bad.
hybrid phoenix
So my coding skills there are sub-par
digital gate
The fact you'd discard that for half a decade is what @tacit siren is getting at.
hybrid phoenix
I don't have a lot of problems I run into due to the lack of C++
Is what I'm getting that
tacit siren
there is also the part where (allowing for very few exceptions) BP programmers tend to be much worse in software architecture and writing maintainable code then those that write code
hybrid phoenix
I totally get where you guys are coming from
I just don't necessarily agree
Right, on that front, I do have a couple of years of C#
So I'd say that might compensate there
tacit siren
that might, yes
digital gate
You'd list that, though, surely.
hybrid phoenix
In my case it's literally just actively disliking C++
Right, obviously
Would be silly not to
tacit siren
compared to c# i hate c++
hybrid phoenix
And I've never needed C++ badly enough to get over that dislike
tacit siren
its imo superior tool for anything but rapid prototyping tho
and the UE c++ is not that bad, at least they didn't inherit std naming conventions
hybrid phoenix
I feel like in many cases its superiority is negligible though
tacit siren
which is where most of my c++ dislikes come from
hybrid phoenix
I can't get over the entanglement that is working with pointers
digital gate
I feel like I dislike std more the more I use it vs using the UE4 api
hybrid phoenix
Coming from C#
(I also just don't know where to begin with C++ - so that doesn't help either)
digital gate
I feel like pointers aren't too hard
hybrid phoenix
They're not hard
digital gate
But they're easy to mess up
hybrid phoenix
But coming from C# they fry my brain a bit
Because everything I do on (semi-) autopilot instantly goes to hell
hybrid phoenix
Really, the only reason I'd have for using C++ is multi-threading
honest cipher
lmao multithreading C++
i have experience with it and its something you really dont want to touch unless you dont have another optiion
and even then, you better be real careful
hybrid phoenix
E.g. proc-gen 😛
hybrid phoenix
I've got this foliage-tool I've been working on, so I can either lock up the game thread, or move it to C++ to get some secondary threads working on it
honest cipher
in general, when i make multithread stuff
hybrid phoenix
Atm it's just sort of hacked to be async
honest cipher
i dont use mutexes
becouse i have to design the code in a way that it doesnt need mutexes
much easier way to do MT code
just "dont" share
in my shit spaceship benchmark thing i essentially just spammed Parallel For
hybrid phoenix
Keep every thread doing its own independent task?
hybrid phoenix
Well, that's the definitely the best way to not fuck up 😛
honest cipher
task system
(yes unreal supports this)
essentially you have atomic tasks, and one task depends on the next
hybrid phoenix
On the list of things I did not know 😛
honest cipher
the idea is that you architect it in a way that data CANT be shared across tasks
hybrid phoenix
So basically the engine would manage your conditions for you
honest cipher
so if you have some game objects that need to be updated, you have 1 task that Ticks them, and that task ticks them "singlethreaded"
and then, after that task finishes
hybrid phoenix
Right
hybrid phoenix
It just uses whatever is done from the multithreaded stuff
honest cipher
then you can combine them for maximum gains (what unreal does) with pipelining
hybrid phoenix
But multi-threading in UE4 is so awful because?
Because based on this I'd say it should be a breeze
honest cipher
becouse unreal engine is not very atomic
unreal engine tasks are quite huge
and unreal engine itself, for game code, cant multithread
btw, you can run Tick in multiple threads
its part of the ticking code itself
there is a "singlethread" Tick, but there are helper jobs that will run your async tick
too bad async tick is basically useless becouse you cant do shit
but what you "can" do
is to use async tick for AI, and then write commands into a queue
and then, on the next tick group, you run those commands on the main thread
and unreal engine does scale damn well on rendering
on consoles it uses every single one of the cores to run graphics and stuff
what i would love is if that "multithread command queue" was part of UE4
and was official
unity has that
they use it on their job system and ECS, for when you need to access "normal" engine stuff
rose path
3 page is drive export issue...
The last changes I did was these lines and formatting. Previous version had more whitespace but many people told me they preferred more content less whitespace
I think the bold letters and line for sections is proper. Gotta improve the subsequent fragments then?
elder mist
#career-chat ...for how long it's been here?
steel creek
half a yearish
elder mist
<- has a selective vision probably
tropic patrol
I know this is late, but i want a job at Intel cause it gives me good experience, and if you get the job quickly after college, they reimburse you (or so i read on an article) and i think they have software development fields and stuff
steel creek
Mostly it's just and stuff
remote saffron
it gives me good experience - just like a lot of other places 🤷
I don't know much about intel but I never heared it being mentioned as best IT company to work for 🤔
steel creek
Just because you haven't heard something doesn't mean it's untrue
remote saffron
I assume that I would hear stuff as I studied and worked in related field 🤷
finite mulch
Hehe
remote saffron
obviously I have no idea, only talked with one guy who worked for intel, and he was working with hardware, wasn't super happy about it but who knows 🤔
anyway not sure if you convinced ! that Intel is the best workplace ever but you definitely did not convince me 😄
it still sounds like a random pick tbh
finite mulch
> 
hybrid phoenix
^
remote saffron
linking another discord server like this is against the rules
@steep hinge I would remove it if I were you 🤷
finite mulch
They should add a discord server ban
plucky hatch
Well im surprised how many people think food is free based on the looking for talent channel🤐 🤐
kindred mason
<@&213101288538374145> ^ rofl
finite mulch
Rhoo
ocean stirrup
Hi, I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this question honestly, but are there any industry experts willing to take a look at my games story and give feedback on the last page for me?
steel creek
why just the last page?
ocean stirrup
I mean like to put the feedback on the last page
lilac walrus
It is my professional opinion that it probably doesn't matter what the story is until you have some kind of game
neat jackal
Yeah, it can be difficult judging a story not knowing what the gameplay will be like, as you can fit any story with any gameplay. Part of judging whether a story is good or not would be considering how well it fits with the gameplay.
steel creek
Exactly that. People seem to think that there's power in ideas. Ideas are cheap and easy.
Implementation and execution are the hard part and the part that actually matter.
ocean stirrup
I do have the gameplay documents completed
I covered it already, I just have the story and gameplay on seperate documents
flat gazelle
Just curious: is this your first game?
ocean stirrup
No
flat gazelle
Cool!
olive timber
@steel creek That kind of mentality results in games like Radical Heights and Paragon and I strongly disagree. The implementation of Paragon was off the charts but the idea was stale and had nothing behind it. Never, ever underestimate the value of a good idea. Being able to code or model is worth more day to day. But the idea is the life of the game after its completed.
kindred mason
Gimme all your "million dollar ideas that only take 3 months to prototype and push out to EA" and I will judge for myself please.
steel creek
lol, no. Ideas like radical heights and paragon come from greedy intent. Has jack squat to do with the idea
the idea of an fps moba == dime a dozen
the greedy intent they did == also, dime a dozen
olive timber
Well on of em was, "Hey lets take PUBG but make it low poly, and add a thin wooden wall building system to it" not a Kojima level idea but it was good and something that could be prototyped fast per your request. I personally try not to look at it from a $ standpoint like most small studios/indie
steel creek
again, the ideas are cheap, easy, free even
ideas == no value
if you do nothing but think all day, what value?
execution. implemention. period.
olive timber
Ask Kojima, Nomura. Artists sure. They had the ability to draw their idea and actually have other people be able to vividly see what they saw in their head. Discrediting the idea is one step under discrediting the concept artists. Discrediting them is like discrediting the 3D modeler thats taking their concept to 3D, and so on. It wasnt about that though. The ultimate Idea they had was legendary. You can potentially screw the idea up during development, but I far more often find myself thinking a game is just bad, rather than thinking it had potential.
you also said yourself them thinking of an FPS moba was a dime a dozen idea which I agree with. It shows you how often shitty ideas get funded in this industry. Which is why you can look back in hindsight and see how important ideas can end up being
steel creek
When you look back, its not the idea that was important -- it was all the people that it took to make that idea come to life/existance.
again -- ideas are nothing without the actual people -- the thing that matters.
also, no one is discrediting anyone
I said ideas are of little value without people to execute them well -- not "designers" suck
those are not the samething.
olive timber
But to your same point saying the idea is important isnt discrediting the programming/modeling/animating grinders of the industry. What Im basically saying is Idea guy has the potential to be Steve Jobs, and 99% of the time the "people", the down and dirty workers in the game industry are Wozniak. Its very obvious to me though that a game cant be made without the grinders and Im not denying, overlooking, or writing that off
urban stump
You only have the potential to be Steve Jobs if you stumble into finances and have a working product to sell already to get going like he did. You can be an ideas guy all you want if you have the money to back it up so you can pay others to do the work. If you're in this Discord, it's doubtful you have the same resources someone like that did and hence, just being an ideas guy with no practical skill is worthless.
Also, it's a dangerous line of thinking to suggest people only take influence from the 0.1% of the most successful 1% of people on the planet. It's like pointing at someone that won the lottery and saying "Look! The system works! Dump all your savings into one big ticket!"
olive timber
Yeah maybe 99% was a tad extreme. And yes, it helps to have a role and be neck deep in the development process. But nothings stopping someone from going Sly Stalone mode, scrapping together a very extensive layout of a game, from story to mechanics and trying to pitch that or get people interested in it. That shouldnt be discouraged, especially if its well done and well presented. My original point was just that "!" jumped jordanlwebster in the even slight off chance that he was trying to be the proverbial "idea guy" and I really dont like that mentality and thought process
urban stump
It only shouldn't be discouraged if the guy has the money to back it up. Otherwise, it's doomed to failure. Every kid over 6 that plays games has "game ideas", an idea alone is worthless in this industry without the talent to back it up.
Most indie games die during development. An ideas guy is a liability unless he's in some way financing the project and paying all the devs.
neat jackal
See problem with "ideas guys" is that anyone can come up with ideas. You need to be able to bring something else to the project as well. I see people like Kojima mentioned as being just "ideas guys", which is simply not an accurate comparison. First of all, someone like Kojima doesn't just have ideas, he also knows what's involved in making a game, how to lead a team, and how to work the idea out into more than just an idea. I've met a lot of "ideas guys" who just know how to create a short pitch, but you need to then be able to work it out into a full script, a storyline, gameplay, backstory (why is the story/world the way it is).
urban stump
And Kojima was a game programmer before being handed anything
neat jackal
Secondly people like Jobs/Wozniak and Kojima didn't start as ideas guys, they first proved themselves. The only reason Kojima can now do what he does is because he's proven himself first, so now he's able to get funding from studios and developers willing to work on his projects. Just like Jobs and Wozniak first had to make working computers.
urban stump
It's very telling that you only EVER see idea guys looking for teams, and not the other way around.
I've never once seen a team looking for an ideas guy.
neat jackal
I just can't see an ideas guy beeing needed ever, unless they also are able to do other things, like having experience with game programming/art, having experience leading a dev team, etc.
urban stump
They aren't needed. The only ideas guy that's ever needed is a gameplay designer. That's the closest you can get and still be a valid profession
neat jackal
Exactly