lounge

[quasi mantle]

Well, same can be said with EA and Frostbite.

[shell garden]

yeah but that's EA

[quasi mantle]

Also Remedy Entertainment with Northlight engine.

[shell garden]

rockstar are known for sucking their own ||dildo bat|| over their games and engines

[quasi mantle]

Crossfire X's single player part is developed by Remedy, and using Northlight, while the multiplayer part is outsourced, and using UE4.

[median wraith]

Lumen don't works with landscapes do it ?

[median wraith]

someone that plays fornite

can tell me if the dead animations are the actual character ?

or they replace it with a generic

[cursive crypt]

Hev, do you want to hurt them?

[median wraith]

Na just wanted knowledge

seems like are the actual characters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kudoel5GWTw&ab_channel=KingJoe83

also I don't get how this kids today can build this fast

[cursive crypt]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-hell-evil-smile-evil-grin-close-up-gif-16483956

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/emperor-palpatine-star-wars-use-my-knowledge-beg-i-beg-you-gif-17384304

[cursive crypt]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-not-creepy-at-all-charlie-wilson-tyler-perrys-young-dylan-its-not-scary-at-all-this-is-so-not-creepy-gif-23892078

[zinc matrix]

they have those 200+$ mouses with lots of buttons

you can get banned by using them way too fast actually

[median wraith]

is using a gamepad

[zinc matrix]

😄

if somebody reports you

it looks like you're hacking

but you're not

build full set of walls in like 3 secs

or make a custom script that builds walls with 1 button

lol

damn nerds

😂

last time I played was like season 2 or 3 lol

even bought skins lmao

[signal citrus]

There is no dead animation

Players evaporate when they get eliminated

[median wraith]

Yeah I mean that one actually

seems like the character that shows before evaportate when they change the skin color is the same mesh

[signal citrus]

Ah

Yeah I think so

It’s very fast

But it’s like the body of the player yeah

I don’t think it’s a swap out

[median wraith]

yeah the vfx is technically simple isn't like these niagara super cool effects as I thought

[celest musk]

is that video already the UE5 version?

[median wraith]

I think so ?

I had some shuttering before on UE5

opened some scenes from 4.26 and at move across the trees in play mode

had cuts and framedrops randomly each 7 seconds or so

reminds me of my Unity exp back in the days

[celest musk]

EA?

[median wraith]

yeah the launcher last version

[celest musk]

well, those are crap in general

[median wraith]

also UE5 builds are listed as FortniteMain

[celest musk]

oO

[median wraith]

hahaah it's happening

[celest musk]

oh wow

also bad replacement imho

also commiter should change his surname

https://tenor.com/view/shake-flirty-flirt-shiver-peacock-gif-16766420

[median wraith]

it were Java or Javascript ?

the ones that did some of these changes first or something

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/coffee-morning-dance-beans-coffee-beans-gif-16960139

when talk about java

[cursive crypt]

https://tenor.com/view/java-dev-clown-programming-programm-gif-20280193

[verbal junco]

ahhh you guys make me itch for a cup of coffee now

thankfully decaff is a thing 🙏

[verbal junco]

🥁

[tulip orbit]

I want to update my ue5 source code, which I downloaded by zip, but it seems github desktop INSISTS on downloading the ENTIRE FUCKING REPOSITORY from main instead of allowing me to make any FUCKING CHANGES

or even switching to the 5.0 branch and just grabbing that

I dont even know WTF its downloading right now

[median wraith]

Github desktop app isn't working for me recently

Had a problem with the clients repo

first time ever

switching branches totally broke itself

[tulip orbit]

Yup, it downloaded the "release" branch. now to switch branches and hope it actually fucking works

K, I switched branches, and its not doing anything. How do I get it to download that branch?

[oblique cloak]

Stop swearing so much my friend, it makes you look unprofessional here. Talk like a human being.

Just clikc on the version you want to download

at the top look for 5.0

[narrow patrol]

Fuck that lol. Human beings swear 🙂

[oblique cloak]

https://github.com/EpicGames/UnrealEngine/tree/7401561f65e8bce35eaf094358a5a9eea9e2aa46

[tulip orbit]

Sorry but I'm pissed that I've wasted so much time on this, when the docs use a bunch of strange jargon that makes no sense to me

[oblique cloak]

just click that link

download.

[tulip orbit]

...what branch is that?

[oblique cloak]

that is the 5.0 branch. The same link i posted in the ue5 source sub chat

[tulip orbit]

its showing a big number instead of 5.0

[oblique cloak]

7401561f65e8bce35eaf094358a5a9eea9e2aa46 is the commit

that is the most recent commit.

[tulip orbit]

should I not just use https://github.com/EpicGames/UnrealEngine/tree/5.0 ?

[oblique cloak]

Ask your questions in #ue5-engine-source

ill be there.

[tulip orbit]

I asked in there, nobody answered, so I vented in here

theres no download button.

[median wraith]

I do remember back in the days when UDK had a lot of depending externals libs, now it's kinda of scary Epic own these companies or have their own version for all the libs etc they use overall lets say physics or ui etc

Now is fine, but the time you don't have your peak of resources it's a self made trap

[oblique cloak]

Stop this LOL

https://tenor.com/view/burying-dying-dead-grave-gif-17189345

5 main is 5.1

[median wraith]

https://github.com/CRYTEK/CRYENGINE/tree/stabilisation RIP

it surprises me the ex lumberyard keeps updates

[tulip orbit]

Wish I didnt need source code access to make my game. would make my life so much easier 🙂

Then I could just download a build from launcher, and all would be well

[verbal junco]

keanu reaffirms chad status

[median wraith]

Steam forces to use Origin

but Microsoft store forces to use EA launcher

Origin tells you to download the EA launcher

but the EA launcher don't execute if you have origin

[verbal junco]

solution: don't buy EA games

[stiff crystal]

that sounded more like EA Play access issue through MS store game pass subscription to me

[median wraith]

Yeah exactly

[stiff crystal]

I really don't know why it doesn't let you do that

I've always had origin installed and I did have EA Desktop too for MS game pass separately

maybe they added some limitation for that combo later?

[quasi mantle]

IS THIS REALLY CRYENGINE?

[stiff crystal]

?

of course it is

[quasi mantle]

I'm surprised the source code is actually public lmao

[stiff crystal]

CE V source code has been on github all along

well, first versions didn't have editor part but that's there now as well

it's still bound by Crytek licensing

so, not actually free to use

[quasi mantle]

Well, I gotta learn the source code and reverse engineer few things for UE4 😼

[stiff crystal]

hmmm, they only have 47 contributors there

and I'm one of them 😄

[quasi mantle]

I need to learn their GI solution lol

[stiff crystal]

they only list one PR from me but I've send few, they just handled them bit differently

updated their CryPhysX for PhysX 3.4 (when it was a new thing)

I doubt anyone actually updated that to PhysX 4.1

that plugin was totally broken, helped them fix some biggest game breaking issues with it too

not really sure if anyone ever actually used the plugin though, everyone just used their own CryPhysics

but CryPhysics isn't really all that great, they have some really weird concepts there

does the new open source version of lumberyard have realtime GI?

they had to redo the renderer for it so there's actually no cryengine code left there anymore

[quasi mantle]

I won't copy the exact code, just a semi clean room reverse engineering

[tulip orbit]

Also, depending on your system's specifications, it may take between 10 and 40 minutes to compile the engine. What kind of system are they running if they can say that?! I'm looking at a few hours to build

[quasi mantle]

Super computers / networked build, maybe. Probably @dense storm know the estimated rig specs for that build time (sorry for the ping)

[mossy nexus]

ThreadRippers or the likes, 256GB ram all that fun stuff

[dense storm]

we have a TR3970x with 128GB ram

takes about 10ish mins to compile the engine

[tulip orbit]

Damn. wish I had that cpu

[dense storm]

5900x takes about 15ish mins(?)

maybe 17

[tulip orbit]

I've only got an i5-11600k, and 32gb ram

[dense storm]

good gaming cpu, bad for multicore stuff

[tulip orbit]

was the most computer I could afford

😦

[dense storm]

30mins to compile engine?

[faint dock]

has probably nice single thread performance

[tulip orbit]

I think I'm about 30min in, and its on 4>[584/5693] Compile Module.PlacementMode.cpp

[dense storm]

oof

[broken sigil]

For me Ue4 takes around 14min on 5950x and ue5 takes around 30min

[faint dock]

code is on a ssd?

[tulip orbit]

yup, on ssd

[quasi mantle]

What about the storage? SSD?

[faint dock]

weird

[dense storm]

oh our build drive is a 2TB NVMe

[faint dock]

why does ue5 take so long?

[tulip orbit]

cpu is hovering near 100% too

[faint dock]

did they go all in on templates?

oO

[broken sigil]

Yep

[dense storm]

also has some weird core limiting

based on ram

[quasi mantle]

Well, I think module building bottlenecks on storage more than CPU

[faint dock]

did anybody actually count the LOC of ue4/ue5?

for curiosity

[quasi mantle]

What's LOC?

[faint dock]

lines of code

[dense storm]

is there a number big enough?

[faint dock]

inf

neg

[dense storm]

then there it is

most of them are { and }

[faint dock]

to lightspeed and beyond

[quasi mantle]

I'd say millions.

[tulip orbit]

more than 50 lines of code I think

[faint dock]

i'm wondering if it is millions or 10s of millions

[quasi mantle]

Just the Source folder alone is 1+ GB

Excluding third party stuff

[tulip orbit]

I guess I should have left the compiling to run overnight. Oh well. Guess I'll go clean my apartment

[faint dock]

just make sure your pc won't burn your apartment

[tulip orbit]

thisisfine.jpg

[dense storm]

dir -Recurse *.cpp | Get-Content | Measure-Object -Line whos willing to run that haha 😛

[faint dock]

i have cloc.exe in my current project

but i won't dare to run it in the engine folder

[dense storm]

ooh cloc

ill run it

[quasi mantle]

Whaaaat
They sell TR3970x locally 😮

The price was a bit too high tho 😅
(Around 32M IDR / $2000)

[dense storm]

o_0

[faint dock]

nice

[dense storm]

doesnt strip out comments tho

so that is all lines?

[faint dock]

i think it reports them

when it's able to detect the lang

[dense storm]

ye

[faint dock]

ah no sorry, that's what cloc does

[quasi mantle]

I thought a computer that able to build UE in a coffee break would cost me more than 100M IDR, guess not 👀

[faint dock]

no

way less than 6.5k euros

well, depending how long your coffee breaks are ☕

[quasi mantle]

Heh 😏
Discounting procrastination of watching YT when sipping coffee

10 minute-ish

[faint dock]

i'am curious how the ryzen 7000 will do

is 13k alder lake?

yeah zen 4 is 2nd half of this year

so still a bit away

ye

tho you're talking to someone who's looking forward to the new mac mini 😄

[quasi mantle]

Reminds me of that one skit of MacTini

[faint dock]

my 1950x is feeling dated these days

rock on 🤘

that's playing ue4 on dark souls difficulty

[median wraith]

4960h

played in a game released in 2020 that still early access

explain

[tulip orbit]

Woo. compile time, 84.7min. now... does it run?

I'd say no, seeing as theres no ue5.exe

hm. hitting f5 and its running... or seems to be

compiling shaders 😐

[quasi mantle]

It's UnrealEditor.exe

[tulip orbit]

close enough

[stiff crystal]

that's "only" 207 days if you keep the game running 24/7

[drifting quest]

@median wraith do you ever work? 😂

sup ppl

[thick belfry]

mfw when i migrated a project, set all the input axis again, didnt test cause tired, packaged, and I put the x and y axis wrong on the mouse

[tulip orbit]

Yeah. my project/editor is finally compiled and I'm too tired to work on it now

Did a quick test of it tho, and my chaos vehicle is no longer jumping around. so thats a good sign

I seem to have migrated my source code modifications over correctly too... no errors on those function calls yet

[median wraith]

oh that isn't mine

[thick belfry]

The paragon assets are like a character selector, but instead of getting to play them immediately you have to build the game

[quasi mantle]

I'm in.

[quasi mantle]

Heh, kinda accurate I guess.
I'm not that social IRL.

[median wraith]

oh man

[lone lance]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I99ohOpyd5Q

[last matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/bravo-idea-guiness-gif-7178836

[last matrix]

hi Nethakas

[left granite]

hello Conrad

[zinc matrix]

Hello people

[last matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/forest-gump-wave-hi-hello-howdy-gif-22164679

[left granite]

https://tenor.com/view/hello-there-private-from-penguins-of-madagascar-hi-wave-hey-there-gif-16043627

[primal matrix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IPa-WOtblA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxWoIBVYnUM

[last matrix]

no bear attacks? aww 😮‍💨

[primal matrix]

https://www.patreon.com/JakubW

[median wraith]

2000€ per month ?

oh is the movement system

no, wait

[quasi mantle]

It's the modified ALS one

[median wraith]

this is the CPP one ?

[zinc matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/leespoons-potatoes-pull-gif-14660720

i realized The Sims 1 has a way bigger map than The Sims 2 on Game Boy Advance

[zinc matrix]

Is that legal? Re-Selling Mixamo animations?

[mossy nexus]

Nope

[deep glen]

can always report it to mixamo, they actively remove their content sold elsewhere.

[zinc matrix]

but can it create something on top of and then sell?

as it seems the case

[mossy nexus]

You are not allowed to redistribute the animations, as is or changed/tweaked. A few years ago, the old T&Cs were still on the site that allowed for distribution if changed, but those have changed.

[zinc matrix]

hmmm

so if i create a game with it, i need to make it freeware?

[mossy nexus]

No, you can use them in games. You just can share the animations.

[zinc matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/aladdin-genie-im-free-freedom-free-at-last-gif-18572302

warzone plunder duos is actually legit

no leavers and most teammates are try hards

😄

[quasi mantle]

Nope, the one that has Uncharted like movement

[verbal junco]

roughhh

[left granite]

XD

[deep glen]

https://i.gyazo.com/73d0d438d2299ec53d93c476a5e795d8.jpg

[left granite]

🤨

[torpid star]

can anyone with chocolatey installed confirm that "choco install llvm" doesn't work?

broken on my end

nvm, started working

[cursive crypt]

Each time I see this exe name I wanna puke, it is so cringe.

choco? Why not apt get, from apartment get?

[tulip orbit]

https://tenor.com/view/homer-simpson-chocolate-happy-running-hopping-gif-12008021

[cursive crypt]

https://tenor.com/view/bunny-bunny-rabbit-eating-gif-13641972

[zinc matrix]

lmao

[wicked saddle]

@zinc matrix

Her name is Arya, two years old and now an official Codekitten. Loves tummy scritches and is so sociable to new humans. She's the best little one I could have hoped for. ❤️

Ooh, just one more.

Yes darling?

Oh okay xD

I have to follow the law, it's mandatory. :p

She has a full cat tree as well, she actually even moved the box over to the tree by herself. xD

Whenever I'm at work, she sits beside me on camera, ready to do Unreal work with me. Follows me to the kitchen for coffee. ❤️

[thick belfry]

My 3 weeks vacation started 🙌 😌 🤗

Gonna be able to work on my project full work days now

[wicked saddle]

Awww yeaaa. Get that relaxation time in ❤️

[thick belfry]

Thank you 🤘

[wicked saddle]

Be sure to give yourself some fun time too though. Vacation is great for personal projects, but don't over-do it!

[thick belfry]

Gamedev is fun for me 😎

Also gotta make it for my college application

[wicked saddle]

I did the same for creating tutorials. Very much realised especially in covid-times that you do need some just.. "brain off" time too.

[thick belfry]

Not really an option to fail there because I quit my job lol

But its good motivation and I'm having fun doing it

[wicked saddle]

Awesome, then that's great and I'm happy for you ❤️

[thick belfry]

But yeah taking some off days is good for productivity

Watcha all working on

Good advice lol

[last matrix]

been going for the world record this week

[wicked saddle]

Dear god someone save me. Well. I've spent the last 6 days watching Lost (2004) and I'm on the last season.
It's all I've done. I heard so many good things, and I have dedicated literally all of my time to it. I'm so addicted.

[wicked saddle]

Planning a tutorial series on Unreal Slate and Tools Development for YouTube/Udemy (maybe).

[thick belfry]

Never watched it

You made a udemy course before?

[wicked saddle]

I've not yet, but I have taught courses and done YouTube tutorials.

Hoping to cover that nebulous section of Unreal on creating tools that there isn't much documentation on.

[thick belfry]

Ah that's cool

Giving back to the community

I dont even know what slate and tools development is

I've only been working with unreal for the past 6 weeks

[wicked saddle]

Well, I guess it's learning C++ and writing your own windows in Unreal to make cool things. Like this :3

[thick belfry]

Ooh looks fancy

[wicked saddle]

Oh cool! So you're just learning Unreal? :3

[thick belfry]

Yeah I'm skipping on c++ for the foreseeable future

[wicked saddle]

Sure, I mean if you're 6 weeks in. Probably best you don't touch C++ for a little bit unless you're already a programmer.

[thick belfry]

Yes it's been a productive 6 weeks tho

[wicked saddle]

Enjoy the engine, learn cool things and make cool things.

[thick belfry]

Pretty proud since I've never been so committed to something

[wicked saddle]

Ooh wow, you track your productivity. That's cool :3

[thick belfry]

It gamifies working lol

Wanna see the numbers go up

Yeah I don't track how I spend my time

[wicked saddle]

Yeah, I kinda came to the same thing @zinc matrix.

[thick belfry]

Just if I've spent atleast 30 mins on it

[wicked saddle]

Time tracking is only really useful for client work and counting hours for invoices. After that..

Learning and passion to learn something is entirely... experiential? Sure you can gamify it. But you already know what's best for you, your progress, and how much cool things you're making.

[thick belfry]

This is what I'm working on atm

[wicked saddle]

That said though - if tracking your productivity and gamifying it is helping you. Don't stop it at all. Do what works for you.

[wicked saddle]

Very pretty :3

[thick belfry]

Ty

[wicked saddle]

How are you finding Unreal?

Do you have previous engine experience or is this your first jump into gamedev?

[thick belfry]

I spent about 3 months on codecademy when I was 14 and about 2 months on unity when I was 16

But not so much time as I've been investing now

[wicked saddle]

What age are you now?

[thick belfry]

So far much more intuitive

23

[wicked saddle]

If you don't mind me asking :p

[thick belfry]

Time to get mature lol

[wicked saddle]

Yeah that's cool, sounds like me when I started.

[thick belfry]

Blueprints really helped

I also did some blender

[wicked saddle]

I'm 29 now, I started with Source Engine back when I was 14, moved to Unreal at 15 and have been using it since.

But I have worked in Unity and some in-house engines too.

[thick belfry]

Made this a few years ago

So it helps with the shaders and post processes

So you mainly code with actual code then?

[wicked saddle]

Really cool :3

Mostly yes. Though blueprint certainly has its advantages, and some things are just easier and quicker to accomplish.

[thick belfry]

I started with c++ and liked it but its just not effective to also learn that when learning niagara, behaviour trees and blueprints at the same time lol

[wicked saddle]

But I'm a Tech Artist, so my job mostly is about creating tools for artists too. Python, C# and C++. Writing quick scripts, so..
yeah! actual code mostly. That said, I'm also an artist, I love shaders. xD

[thick belfry]

So its a long term thing I wanna do

Relatively basic to complement the blueprint system

Shaders are like my frenemy

Love to hate them

Yeah thats my plan eventually

Gotta have patience tho

[median wraith]

Well we are on the same group it seems then

[wicked saddle]

I mean, that is kind of the thing with something like Tech Art. You have so many parts of the engine you want to learn, particles, shaders, sound, etc.
But usually you end up with a speciality. In this case, for me it was Tools development and Shaders.

I stay away from systems like AI etc, because that follows more of a Technical Designer role - but I do love to play and have fun with them too.

[thick belfry]

They have a decent track for tech artists at the college I'm applying for but its a bit above my head and doesn't call to me like design

[wicked saddle]

Very much so Hevedy. Your name is very familiar btw, may have come across some stuff from you before. I just don't think we've formally talked :p

Stahp it darling :p ❤️

[wicked saddle]

Then I would approach the role of Technical Designer if you do like design a lot.

[quasi mantle]

Gotta commit the BSP pool

[median wraith]

Yeah we were in the community for a long time lets say 😂
Twitter too, some spare tweet and such

[thick belfry]

I actually wanna go into the producer track maybe

[wicked saddle]

Yeah! right! :3 Nostalgia is so cool ;p

[wicked saddle]

Well the only thing I will say on that is generally speaking, the best producers tend to be the ones who know how things work technically.

[verbal junco]

same 😔

[thick belfry]

You gotta know a lot about every discipline but know how to leave it to the experts

I love working on this project because I'm doing all the different roles and I like learning about every one of them

[wicked saddle]

Actually trying to find the actual date I bought UT2004... It was slightly after, but would tell me exactly how long I've been using Unreal. It was definitely UnrealEd 2 though.

My guesstimate is some 14 years.

[thick belfry]

AI system is really making my life difficult atm lol

I'm starting to get it

[wicked saddle]

I remember because on UT2004, the 6th CD came with Maya PLE and a whole lot of 3DBuzz tutorials on UnrealEd.

Wow, that was Alias Wavefront days. xD

[wicked saddle]

I might be heavily biased. But one of the best things you can do for your career is specialize not generalize.
(I did 8 years freelance before working studio jobs).

[last matrix]

sounds right

[last matrix]

trippy, i did 8 years studio before going freelance 😛

[wicked saddle]

Yeah I'm very much a unique case. I was 16 years old when I had my first paid contract on a mod,

[verbal junco]

how do you compare?

the two that is

[wicked saddle]

after that, I realized my services were worth it - but wasn't quite old enough to work at a studio. After that, I was signing contracts, doing work for studios around the world.

[last matrix]

i can't say i hate or like one more, but they have good stuff and bad stuff

[wicked saddle]

But for me, the reason I went to studio jobs was because I wasn't credited and didn't have the experience. I wanted to go through a full 3-5 year development cycle, have my name on a project, and really know what it means to go through it. I was tired of being the hired-girl for 2 weeks, sleeping under desks and trying to fix the problems they made at last minute before deadline.

[last matrix]

that is the bad stuff of freelance lol

not all of what you said, but the last minute stuff

[signal citrus]

Yo 3D buzz tutorials on ut2004 we’re great

[last matrix]

it is also rewarding to see your name in the credits

[thick belfry]

Yeah but I am a manager in a restaurant atm and I do really love the human resource side of it, so I feel like being a producer would fit me. But I know most people don't become a producer out of college

[last matrix]

I also like eat3D and 3d motive...

when they were around...

[wicked saddle]

That isn't to say that I don't miss freelance. I was paid 2-3x more than I was for a weeks work, and it was a super good feeling to be "the one who knows to fix the problem". But.. After some time.. I hate looking after my own books, I just want a paycheck go home, have taxes "auto paid" and just live my life :p

[wicked saddle]

Very much so, after some.. 12 projects? My name is only in two in credits after freelance.

[thick belfry]

I remember when la noire didn't put the people who quit before shipping in their credits

They made their own site

[last matrix]

lol thats not bad though

[wicked saddle]

Sure thing! But if you love working with people, you still get that from studio roles - as a lead or a senior. It just depends on where you want to be, do you want to manage people mostly? Or do you want to get your hands in-editor and lead people too?

[wicked saddle]

Well, I'd argue that it is bad. Freelancers who contribute to a project should be credited. Anyone who works on something should be credited.

[last matrix]

nah, im sure theres a bunch a ppl omitted from credits in general

[signal citrus]

Do you request it in the contract?

[last matrix]

cant remember what studio, one includes the ppl who give them coffee

[wicked saddle]

Idk, there is that whole credit-reformation happening on twitter right now. People who had worked and were hired to work on a project, not getting credited. It's weird.

[verbal junco]

still fighting to get a credit inclusion with ubisoft

it's a pain in the behind

well I say fighting

I asked them

[thick belfry]

Id like to be thinking about the big picture of a game and be involved on multiple fronts on the pipeline while also managing teams

[wicked saddle]

Sounds like production, might be a fit for you then. ^^

[thick belfry]

I can sometimes get a bit bored working on one aspect of my game too long so I switch to a completely different part

[mossy nexus]

Me too! only they said no on account of the fact I've never worked for them, so fair enough I guess 😄

[thick belfry]

I feel like if I would just be programming all day I'd not like it in the long run even if I love it

[last matrix]

same here, and producer is important to actually get it done then to get distracted, aiming for director myself though

[thick belfry]

What's the difference between director/producer?

[wicked saddle]

That's actually the reason I love Tech Art. Tech Art requires me to daily micro-switch, I go from one person helping them with lighting, to another person helping them with FBX files etc. The different there is I guess, I'm on the macro-level. Production is the higher level.

[signal citrus]

You all should make sure it’s in the contract you sign before working, I imagine it’s a lot harder to request after the fact

[thick belfry]

It's why this AI is getting to me lol

[last matrix]

not much - you would likely meet with all directors and keep track of all work time

[thick belfry]

I dreamt about a behaviour tree last night 🌳

[wicked saddle]

I cannot tell you, in my life, no matter how much better I get at it. When a contract fucks me.

[last matrix]

took me 3 tries from scratch to get my AI where its at, i wouldnt say its exactly as i envisioned, but its pretty damn good

[signal citrus]

Yeah they can help and hurt

[last matrix]

first time doing AI and after the 3rd try, maybe spent 4 or 5 months

[thick belfry]

I relented and got a udemy course

It's been useful

It's very slow

[signal citrus]

Big companies will want you to agree to employee things and contractor things just so they can decide to treat you as either when it is most beneficial to them

[wicked saddle]

At this point I've learned it's what is not written in a contract that hurts more than what is written in one.

[thick belfry]

I do try to go off the course path

So I end up breaking it

And redoing it correctly

[verbal junco]

I mean it's not the biggest deal it's just kind of insulting

[thick belfry]

Better than just following step by step though

I just wanna understand how they work on a basic level

[last matrix]

yeah, its more important to know what it does than to just copy/follow

[wicked saddle]

And the best thing you can do when signing a contract is specifically request what you need in a contract, ask it to be re-written, even if it's socially awkward, even if it means the contract is postponed by a week.

[signal citrus]

Yeah it’s not expected though, ghost writing is common

[last matrix]

takes awhile though, lots of little things in BT

[thick belfry]

I'm starting to understand how the blackboard and decorators works though

So that felt like getting the hang of it

Being able to make something myself atleast

[last matrix]

hide your logo or initials in the contract work you do 😆

[wicked saddle]

Why? :p

[thick belfry]

I'm happy I don't plan on freelancing cause that sounds like a pain to manage

[signal citrus]

!8ball pizza?

[turbid spindle]

@signal citrus, :8ball: Cannot predict now.

[mossy nexus]

!8ball no

[turbid spindle]

@mossy nexus, :8ball: Reply hazy, try again.

[wicked saddle]

Nawh sure, a week was a generalized statement. It will take longer, but generally speaking - if a studio is commited to hiring you, changing the contract is something they will oblige. And if they don't, probably not the best studio for you. :p

[thick belfry]

Why?

[last matrix]

depends on the kind of work, im happy to pick projects as i like

[mossy nexus]

Self employed usually pay much much lower taxes, if you have a decent accountant at least 😄

[thick belfry]

Hahaha

Active chat tonight

[mossy nexus]

Sometimes the chat calls to us... othertimes not

[wicked saddle]

It's business! As a freelancer you generally get to set how much you're worth, you can charge more than what it would be if they hired you. The con to this is you manage your own taxes, and have to work out these contracts.

[night grove]

Maybe I should switch to contract just for this

I've had to fix SO MANY PROBLEMS because management wouldn't listen... Then I end up getting the shaft (laid off) because of their stupidity.

[thick belfry]

I hope I'll be able to find a job where I live but not too many studios in the netherlands

[wicked saddle]

My favorite thought from a freelancer is:
"You wouldn't have this issue, and my large invoice if you just hired a TA beforehand. Have fun with that."

[thick belfry]

My dream job would be at larian games though

They're in Belgium so not too far

I live on the border now anyways

[night grove]

My in-laws were talking about some "temp work" that amounted to a 3 year contract....

[wicked saddle]

Most, if not all of my clients basically tried to short-circuit and pay less by not hiring a staff member that was essential at the beginning of dev.

[night grove]

I'm like... That's not temp work!

[thick belfry]

What's a TA

[wicked saddle]

Can be!

[verbal junco]

this is the worst

[wicked saddle]

Technical Artist :3

[thick belfry]

Oh lol

[wicked saddle]

Not Teachers Assistant, as I've recently learned about this American term :p

[night grove]

Tech Art rules

I should switch to TA

[verbal junco]

tech art is too powerful

[wicked saddle]

Well, I knew about the term. Just didn't learn until recently that it is abbreviated to TA.

[night grove]

Then maybe I could actually get time to develop skills in content creation

[wicked saddle]

Tech Art is a lot of fun :p

[night grove]

As a "generalist graphics engineer" I'm frequently told "No you can't work on content"

[thick belfry]

I dont thibk anyone thought you wouldn't know the words teacher and assistant hehe

[wicked saddle]

They deserve it! You don't get to skimp out on a $35K salary, and then last minute have to pay that much for a weeks work because you (talking about the client) made the bad decision, to be fair. :p

[thick belfry]

So you're making tools now?

[night grove]

Yeah a lot of my work has been tools

Also a lot of low level infrastructure work... Basically replacing engine stuff that was inadequate.

[wicked saddle]

Nawh, Teachers Assistant tends to be uniquely American as far as I know. I'm Irish, we have 30 students, one teacher, no one to help. :p

[last matrix]

they tell you that because you're to important too burn time on something so trivial lol

[night grove]

I was wondering this as well. I got paid more than that fresh out of college.

[wicked saddle]

Country dependent darling. :3 $35K is Ireland/UK salary. Pounds and Euro. American it would be closer to $100K. :p

[night grove]

Oh god isn't that the truth

[mossy nexus]

A TA's salary should be the same as their weight in gold.

[night grove]

!

[wicked saddle]

But then also,we get basically free health care for example.

We don't have to pay $10K for an xray.

[night grove]

Since I was laid off I had an option to purchase COBRA health insurance

It was going to cost nearly $2000 USD per month

[thick belfry]

Might make college more expensive if we are paying 4 million but I don't disagree

[last matrix]

its pretty much bs

[wicked saddle]

(I am aware that's still an obsurd value, I'm being facetious. :p)

[night grove]

Sadly that number is not that far off for US

[verbal junco]

wait who gets 35k?!

[thick belfry]

Gotta love not living in the us

That sounds insane

[wicked saddle]

It isn't far off, unfortunately. But it is the reason why salaries for TA are $100K in the states, cost of living is significantly higher because health insurance is entirely privatised and things cost much more.

[night grove]

If my project doesn't result in steady self employment, I've promised myself I'll look for work outside USA

[mossy nexus]

Canada. It's close and isn't the USA. Win Win

[wicked saddle]

I'm in Germany right now, I pay like.. $50 a month for insurance, and I'm on a $40K salary. Still have plenty in savings and live a pretty good life.

[mossy nexus]

I'm seeing a lot of Germans recently in Unreal. Must be the latest trend there 😄

[wicked saddle]

Nawh, I'm not German. I lived 26 years in Ireland, and moved to Germany 3.5 years ago.

[verbal junco]

to be fair in the last year I almost doubled my salary

[wicked saddle]

That said, I live in the center of the city. Beautiful area, and still save a ton.

[last matrix]

probably jumping ship from Unity

[mossy nexus]

So you're Irish?

[night grove]

A lot of us are moving over from Unity

[mossy nexus]

Or you move to Ireland at a young age from...

[wicked saddle]

Yes! I'm Irish :3 born and raised.

[night grove]

That's about when I started using it

Stopped using Unity 3 years ago

Give or take

Did non-game dev stuff

Pay was awesome, but work was soul sucking

I worked in medical on 3d visualizations

[mossy nexus]

Well ya can't be half bad, if you're irish as ya say. Could be worse, mind you... 😄

[last matrix]

oof

[night grove]

They bragged about "cutting edge" tech stack

[wicked saddle]

I mean to be fair, Ireland has a lot of problems, but it's not all half bad.

[night grove]

But were freaking out when the ONE SPECIFIC GPU they programmed their stuff against was going EOL

[wicked saddle]

It's the industry that isn't great there, so the wee lass had to find somewhere were there was more Unreal jobs :3

[night grove]

XD

Nope

[mossy nexus]

Aye boat loads of Unreal jobs in Scotland too 😄

[wicked saddle]

Health insurance etc was great. But at the time I left Ireland, it was predominantly Unity, only a handful of Unreal devs and it was after I left that Unity set up headquarters there. But I believe they're only working on procedural texture generation. No AA, aside from one studio and even still they're working on low-budget IPs.

[night grove]

Render in a GL context, then do a pixel by pixel copy to the .net window

We ran at like 6FPS

Terrrrrrrible tech stack

so backwards, made by a bunch of fresh college grads like 6 years earlier

[last matrix]

NEC monitors

[night grove]

I'm on a patent now with that work

For get this:

Making a 3d rotation widget

That's it

I spent months arguing about the best way to rotate something along the z axis

[wicked saddle]

Yeah there's more and more in the Celtic isles. But for career trajectory, it was much easier to aim for the EU as a whole.

[night grove]

We REVOlutIonIZED tEh IndUSTRY

[mossy nexus]

Well give how Brexit is royally screwing up mainland UK, you're better off anywhere but here

[wicked saddle]

Every recruiter I've ever had.

[night grove]

Oh god. Recruiters are a pain

[wicked saddle]

To be fair, Ireland is still in the EU. I have not had Brexit issues as an Irish Citizen.

[night grove]

I worked with a family friend that was a recruiter

When I was more junior

The asshole used me as his "lower skill comparison" so he could place his senior developers and make more money

[verbal junco]

wtf

[night grove]

Basically just sent me to a bunch of interviews I wasn't qualified for, just to make his other candidates look good

Will not work with recruiters anymore

This was years ago though

[wicked saddle]

At this point. This is my message I send to recruiters.

"Hey there,

For the sake of time - do you offer full time remote, and what is the average salary for the job.
How are you with LGBT staff?

Kind regards,
Alessa."

And leave it at that. Tired of all the spiel, the trying to give me the run-down on why they're the greatest studio ever.
Just tell me what I need to know :p

[last matrix]

there's a reason they're so friendly

[night grove]

Oh yes. The "first person to say a number loses" debate

Fun stuff

[wicked saddle]

Yep

Always fun.

[night grove]

To be fair, the recruiter did teach me some good interviewing techniques

[wicked saddle]

But, after having 8 years freelance behind me. I know how to debate salaries at this point. A useful skill to have negotiating a deal before starting a studio job.

[night grove]

I need to get better at not getting attached to a specific job offer

So I can debate salaries better

Lots easier to negotiate from a position of power

[wicked saddle]

They need me, I don't need them. There's some 30+ other TA jobs out there. :p

[verbal junco]

our company is going fully remote 🦾

am stoked

[last matrix]

all part of negotiation, you have to be willing to walk away

dont bluff it

[wicked saddle]

It is somewhat funny, because I've had recruiters be like "uh.. we usually do the full interview etc before doing this."
and I'd say nah, just make life simple. Answer my questions, we'll do that when we move on.

[wicked saddle]

Niceee!! More and more are, and I love it. I mean, I love being in a studio too, I do miss it with Covid times. But still, it's good to have the choice.

[night grove]

I like the shift to remote work

I don't have to worry about incompetent managers breathing down my neck with a "butts in the seat = working" attitude

Have you heard about the companies trying to make 100% webcam feeds a thing?

So gross

[wicked saddle]

The remote work is terrible for those who live alone though.. Covid wasn't nice to me. Not because of infection,
but because I learned pretty quickly and rather harshly that I need friends around me. Didn't do well for the ol' mental health.

That's actually why I adopted Arya. Having a little one to take care of is nice ❤️

[night grove]

Aye. My mental health has definitely taken a hit from the lack of social exposure.

[wicked saddle]

Oooh. Don't get me started. I've had several issues with that as a concept. :p

100% webcam feeds is incredibly ableist and implies that everyone can get ready and be in an atmosphere at home where they can be on camera at all times. It's fucking horrible.

Sure, I agree, it helps with the social aspect we lost when moving to home office.

[last matrix]

havn't missed the 2 hour+ drive to work since we went remote

[wicked saddle]

But holy fuck is it difficult for me to be on camera every day. It was hard enough getting ready for the office.

[night grove]

It's not just the thought of managers watching me all the time

I'm camera averse

Who knows if it's getting recorded somewhere

And what happens when family members start yelling for w/e reason

[wicked saddle]

Thankfully I'm in a position where they can't force me. They can ask, but I tell them no :p

[verbal junco]

same. I do miss the social engagements but honest (and please don't kill me for saying this) I think the quarantine has been quite good

[wicked saddle]

Like what if you have children, and your son has decided today is the perfect day to be naked and running around.
Or you have an illness that prevents you? It's stupid.

[night grove]

I've had to put a time bomb into client work to disable the game

Because a client was leeching extra work for free and refusing to cut the final check

[verbal junco]

I realize a lot of people have lost loved ones

[last matrix]

its not really helped the actual problem, but yes, it has made other areas of life better within the tech sphere

[wicked saddle]

Quarantine has been beneficial for those who can make use of it. And for those who are in that position, it can make work-life a lot easier, sure.

[night grove]

LOL

[wicked saddle]

Mood. :p

[night grove]

I have family that works in HR.. I always have to extra self filter around them

[verbal junco]

I wanted to say that this is a US thing but really I had a colleague who would drive 2 hours to work in the UK as well. I will never understand this

[night grove]

This is why I avoid taking jobs in California

[last matrix]

yeh, for me its US, and its because LA is a moving parking lot

[verbal junco]

but tacos 😦

[night grove]

There's a really good street taco place up the street from my house

[wicked saddle]

To be fair, their job is to manage staff, and ensure they are following rules and getting the best work done.
They are there for the company, not for you. Though sometimes they can be there for staff.

[verbal junco]

https://tenor.com/view/woman-of-culture-gif-20099443

[last matrix]

brick and mortar owners get very upset when the brick and mortar isnt being used... though being paid for still

[night grove]

I was so confused about this for part of my career

The first job I had was a small studio that truly treated everyone like family

The HR guy would check in on people periodically to see if you really needed help with anything

[wicked saddle]

Yeah it was similar for me at my first studio job. They were so helpful, respectful, and really wanted to make sure my transition to the company was easy. But when issues happened, it was all against me.

[verbal junco]

it's always like that

[last matrix]

same boat

[night grove]

But it was bought out by activision and later shutdown because the original owners of the studio refused to take on contracts that would result in death marches

[last matrix]

but also the "family" vibe was kinda culty

[verbal junco]

given my role I get to talk to HR quite often and hear the business side of things... which has made me empathize more with them

[night grove]

That's true

[verbal junco]

people aren't bad but if your job is to protect company interests...

[wicked saddle]

Weirdly enough, there's a term for this in psychology. Manipulation. It's a shame we've Incorporated this term and made it the "standard practice."

[night grove]

It was more that they had out of work socializing activities where it was forbidden to talk about work

LAN parties at the office, etc

[verbal junco]

oof

[last matrix]

oof

[wicked saddle]

I had something similar. I was hired as a freelancer for two weeks, had suggested someone who could additionally help with modeling. Big-bad millionare turned around and asked me to fire them. I've never fired someone before. It's horrible.

Meanie! >:3

[last matrix]

had to release two interns that i brought on and trained to help me with work...

[wicked saddle]

To be fair, statistically are our arguments aren't helping. You've just had two cats share firing stories. 😢

[last matrix]

why? cuz they actually did all the work i needed help with and the CEO didnt see a reason to keep them

[verbal junco]

bonding over firing others, truly evil 😔

[last matrix]

im also not a cat

[wicked saddle]

WE"RE CUTE NOT EVIL DAMMIT

Okay that gif is evil incarnate.

[night grove]

<- not a cat

[verbal junco]

if I didn't have epilepsy before I'm getting it now

[night grove]

<- allergic to cats

[wicked saddle]

I feel like ya'll are against cats, kitten doesn't feel safe :p

[night grove]

I was thinking of epiliepsy on that one as well

[wicked saddle]

Fun fact! Two of my family members are epileptic, and while that flickering isn't fast enough - It's good to me to see that others consider it :p

[night grove]

I went to school with a guy that had it, so I always have alarms go off when I see certain imagery

[wicked saddle]

It would be the first tank I've ever had a conversation with.

[night grove]

So we have cats and a tank in this convo

[wicked saddle]

lmao Lorash is literally gonna wait 24 hours. :p

[verbal junco]

it's literally one of my biggest peeves with media... that and subtitles

[night grove]

And some color... blob... things...

[wicked saddle]

I'm really happy to hear that. Now for my next hope, we do the same for colorblindness. :p

[night grove]

This one is really mind blowing to me tbh

Once you know what to worry about for colorblindness it is NOT THAT HARD to make UI that is color blind friendly

[wicked saddle]

Oh I see, good to know then! I'm not usually a regular here. But after tonight, I think I would like to be :3

[verbal junco]

I'd love to see that but I think we'd need to see a framework put forward by someone with colorblindness

[wicked saddle]

Aaaaaaaaah. I've a lot of problems with that statement. Kind of.

[last matrix]

worked a place where this was a thing. learned a lot about them and made a tool which would shift color spaces for the most common.

[verbal junco]

until mods call in the strikes 😓

[night grove]

Call in the airsupport!

[wicked saddle]

Shifting color spaces, while it's an easy fix is not the best fix for colorblindness. I wrote an article internally, let me see if I can post it to Medium soon.

[verbal junco]

lmao

[night grove]

I'd love to read it

[verbal junco]

#cpp memes are mad good though I gotta admit

[night grove]

Most of what I've seen for color blind unfriendly UI comes down to preferring Red = bad, green = good

[wicked saddle]

But traditionally the problem with shifting color spaces, LUTs (look up tables etc) is that you are messing with literally every other color. I've had arguments on twitter regarding Fornites implementation here. But for someone with red-green (deuteranopia) difficiency, the sky should not be purple and the grass orange. You should only shift gameplay colors specifically.

[night grove]

You need to combine shape or position with color for information

[last matrix]

it was that or none at all. And it was rather aesthetic. Kinda pointless without getting feedback from colorblind people though.

[last matrix]

its not that crazy, the game was unlit/handpainted

most of it was UI treatments with some effects on the game art

[verbal junco]

if there's any resource on this somewhere I'd love to take a look

[wicked saddle]

Those who aren't colorblind focus on making things easier for people to see. Not on ensuring realism too. It does fuck with us when grass is orange. Arguably becomes more of a focal point than the enemy itself. UI colors should change, enemy highlighting. But do not change all of the entire screens color. We see that change too.

[verbal junco]

like the actual color differences

since I am literally colorblind-blind

[last matrix]

one of those "thought up out of the blue" sort of things from the CEO who got too attached to this being such an important selling point

[night grove]

Are you color blind?

[wicked saddle]

Ah.. Okay fine. I'll do a medium article. I've written a million tweets on this, but yeah. I should do maybe even a tutorial series on colorblindness support for Youtube.

[wicked saddle]

Yes I'm deuteranopic. Red-green difficient. And yes I'm an artist :p

[verbal junco]

playing life on hard mode

[last matrix]

that'd be great, i need more good resources on this when i teach color theory

[verbal junco]

I got this site bookmarked

[night grove]

I didn't realize females could be deuteranopic

I thought it was predominantly males that can suffer from colorblindness

[verbal junco]

it's a misconception that I hate everything 😔

[regal pecan]

Do you hate the misconception?

[verbal junco]

yes

[wicked saddle]

This actually at the time was my biggest argument to Fortnite dev. They used what is called the Isihara test (color circles) as an example image to show off colorblindness support. Not only is it not efficient, those who are colorblind are often bullied with using this test to prove if they can see color.

[regal pecan]

"predominantly"

[night grove]

I've read that some females can see a broader color spectrum than is typical. So basically the opposite of color blindness. Almost like a super power.

[wicked saddle]

It's 0.5% of females. 8% of males.

[verbal junco]

is this uh... science backed?

[night grove]

Also, males tend to have less perception of red than females

[last matrix]

read something like that too, or that women and men see specific colors more. also that some ppl have 4 cones instead of 3

[wicked saddle]

Also there are 8 types of colorblindness split into two groups. Anopia and Anomaly. Anopia is partial missing cones, Anomaly is missing cones.

[night grove]

Women are generally better at color perception, while men are generally better at spacial and velocity perception

[regal pecan]

Is the idea that LUTs shouldn't be used, or that it's most likely the wrong LUTs being used?

[night grove]

Or something something cave man rawr

[wicked saddle]

Women and men are difficient in different percentages based on the types of colorblindness.

Monochromatopsia only affects some.. 0.0001% of people. Is largely dedicated to an island of people who are not aware of actual human society,

It's believe to be caused by inbreeding.

[night grove]

This

[wicked saddle]

Yep!

[night grove]

Traffic lights have universal positioning, as an example

[last matrix]

yes, shape and color is better

[night grove]

The 2nd example looks so much cooler too

[verbal junco]

yes but also keep gestalts pls

[last matrix]

orientation as well

[night grove]

Win win!

[last matrix]

gestalt is not related to color 🙂

work it in as much as you like or not

[verbal junco]

I know they're not. I'm saying use them regardless

[wicked saddle]

If anyone here today, is to learn anything about colorblindness it is this:
Colorblindness for the large majority is when colors are similar and become hard to differentiate. Like holding something transparent but slightly fogged over something and hard to tell.

That said. The human eye prioritizes contrast more than anything. This is why for those who are even losing their vision, and they lose color, they still see in grey scale and brightness values. If you are going to do anything with color. Bring it to photoshop, black and white the image, and compare how bright the values are. If the greys are too close, chances are you've picked colors that are too similar and harder to distinguish. No too close similar greys and you're likely fine.

Complimentary colors also work great here. Red vs Blue. etc.

[last matrix]

its all about values

[last matrix]

yeah, im agreeing

[verbal junco]

it was more about the second image having the shape language huddled together

[night grove]

I worked with a color blind programmer that used dark red text on bright red background

[wicked saddle]

Did he know he was colorblind? :p

[night grove]

He claimed he didn't know it was a problem for other people and pulled the "disability card" a lot

More particularly, he would get super defensive if you offered suggestions to change his code

[verbal junco]

this doesn't sound like colorblindness 🤔

[wicked saddle]

Well to be fair dark red and bright red isn't necessarily a colorblind issue. We can even as Deuteranopia differentiate different shades of red.. But.. I don't see why he didn't use complimentary colors.

[night grove]

That's where I learned contrast was important to help with color blindness

[wicked saddle]

Yeah that's rockstar behavior.

[night grove]

In this case I'm confident he intentionally chose colors that made it uncomfortable for others to look at his screen

To reduce efforts of colaboration

[wicked saddle]

Okay then.. To be fair, there is an argument there.

[verbal junco]

wouldn't you have code reviews in a neutral setting anyway?

[wicked saddle]

A lot of us who are colorblind are bullied from a young age on the use of color.

He was probably trying to make a point to those who can see normally.

[night grove]

I was junior at the time. But every code review he would say "I worked at XYZ famous company so I don't have to listen to any of your advise"

[wicked saddle]

He might have had a vengeance I guess, is my counter.. But it's not a strong counter.

[verbal junco]

yeah that's what I was thinking

[night grove]

Basically, he wouldn't ever honor any API contracts we had

[wicked saddle]

Oh one other thing if you learn someone is colorblind. Stop pointing to shit and asking us what color it is. We can see color, we just can't differentiate between them :p

[night grove]

So I had to refactor my code a lot to work with his

[verbal junco]

I mean I can't even understand people who use the bright themes for VS

[wicked saddle]

Ooh! I learned the science behind this. It's all to do with eye strain, if you're interested in knowing xD

[night grove]

How do you mean?

[last matrix]

hence why more software has shifted to dark themes

[night grove]

I always use dark themes BECAUSE of eye strain

[verbal junco]

same

[wicked saddle]

Basically your eyes prioritize contrast, so when focusing on a screen in a dark room, your eyes will work harder in order to keep them in focus.

[night grove]

Oh I see

[wicked saddle]

If you have a brightly lit room, like an office or at a studio, using a dark theme has them same effect.

[night grove]

That must be why I prefer wfh (with the lights off) vs a brightly lit office

[wicked saddle]

Your peripheral vision is filled with light, so your eyes have to work harder in order to focus on the dark theme.

Match your theme to your lighting situation. Makes for easy viewing.

[night grove]

In my last day job my desk was out facing towards the windows so I would get a lot of headaches

[wicked saddle]

If you usually work from home in the dark, you become accustomed to dark themes. So you tend to want to use them in an office setting, but in an office setting it's arguably worse for your eyes. Better to switch to a white theme.

[verbal junco]

I generally do dim lighting and dim screens

[night grove]

Thanks for the insight!

[wicked saddle]

However. All that said. Neutral grey works too. Something like VSCode. It's a neutral grey and works in both lighting setups.

Less strain for the eye ❤️

[night grove]

What does this add?

You mean like desk lamps?

[wicked saddle]

Anyway, there's super interesting psychology there over preference. In a perfect world for example, working from home in the dark, you would use dark theme. At the office in the light, you would use a bright theme. But that isn't how humans work, we learn our preference and despite all odds choose what we are comfortable with. So we basically accept the pain and keep working.

[night grove]

Oh I see

[wicked saddle]

Actually my favorite thing since doing Youtube. I have these standing lights that are 14" LED screen battery powered panels, can move them around the room, adjust temperature, and more often than not I point them at a white wall and use them as diffuse lighting ❤️

[night grove]

Most my house is lit with LED smart bulbs. It just so happens my office is fluorescent lighting. Which is gross and loud.

loud visually and acoustically

As in, they humm

[verbal junco]

I like the buzz

especially after hours in the office

[wicked saddle]

brrrrr

[night grove]

I hate it

[verbal junco]

starts to feel like something out of the backrooms

[night grove]

I used to have super sensitive ears (to various frequencies)

[wicked saddle]

I wear headphones anyway. I do think my colleagues generally hate me.

[night grove]

Now I have tinnitus

So buzzing and ringing makes me irritated

[wicked saddle]

Cherry MX Blues on and metallic keyboard.

But office sounds is the biggest take-away I've had since moving to home office. My attention goes sideways when I hear someone talking and walking by my desk.

[night grove]

Is it because a combinations of headphone and keyboard choice?

Anywhere I've worked that I've liked, headphones have been generally expected

I suck at audio, but I'm very picky on headphones

and audio quality

[wicked saddle]

Well, my thought was.. Albeit selfish, that the studio gave everyone professional headphones. And I type significantly faster and more efficiently on Cherry blues..

[night grove]

Ah I was wondering if it was mechanical click clack

[wicked saddle]

So I prioritized my work by keyboard choice and spending my own money on that.

[night grove]

I used to think it was all hype

[wicked saddle]

And anyone who has a problem.. well they have those super cool new headphones.

[night grove]

Now I have a few different keyboards

[wicked saddle]

My preference is the DasKeyboard 4 Pro with Cherry blues.

It's a dream to work on.

[night grove]

I'm on the boring cherry browns rn

Corsair keyboard

I really WANT to like reds

But... they feel weird to type on

[wicked saddle]

Eh, browns are nice. Reds are a nice even, blues are the clicky light touch.

Reds are middle ground.

[night grove]

This is true

[wicked saddle]

And more often than not, Browns contribute more to finger pain.

[night grove]

This is why I want to relearn reds

But I always chicken out

[verbal junco]

I'm used to super sensitive keys as a carryover from using one too many arcade sticks. I can't imagine having to put so much weight on keys

as in, literally

[night grove]

Is this because browns often bottom out?

I didn't think the actuation force was that much different

[wicked saddle]

It's because they require a longer press generally, yes. Your fingers need more force to actuate the press. ^^

[night grove]

Oh it is a distance thing

[wicked saddle]

Generally it's fine, for gamers also cool.

But if you're a programmer doing some 10K characters per day over 8 hours. Sure.. A lighter press contributes to less pain.

Actuation force is a metric per-key and is used when testing a keyboard. That's always why preference is a thing, learning what is comfortable for you, the most comfortable for you is better.

[torpid star]

Buckling springs, IBM Model M

[wicked saddle]

Ah.. Don't get me wrong, I love some nostalgia. But I totally disagree why everyone thinks Model M is best.

[night grove]

I should try blues

[wicked saddle]

It was unique for sure, people like that uniqueness.

[night grove]

Was just looking at a chart

[verbal junco]

I'd consider trying something like this if I could get it in chiclet form

[night grove]

Brown is "tactile" red is "linear" and blue is "clicky"

Maybe the linear nature of reds is what throws me off

[wicked saddle]

But buy some blues, test them intensely for a day, and really think about how your fingers feel after typing for that long. Measure it based on what feels best for you.

[wicked saddle]

Yeah even these terms are marketing based on experiential. They're meant to convey a point, not an experience.

[verbal junco]

huh, so there is

[wicked saddle]

I do actually occasionally switch to my laptop when programming, membrane keyboards can be much lighter, low travel distance and just feel comfortable.

[night grove]

This was one thing that was so weird at my last job. Literally everyone used lame membrane keyboards that came with the computer.

[wicked saddle]

Distance does require more effort though. This is exactly the reason if you've ever used an old mechanical typewriter it's so difficult to type on.

The travel distance on them is 2cm+. It's a nightmare for fingers.

[night grove]

Typewriters ruined the keyboard

QWERTY

sigh

[wicked saddle]

Do some C++ on a mechanical old typewriter and come back to me :p

[torpid star]

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch

[wicked saddle]

Typewriters weren't the fault. Language was the fault there :p

[night grove]

I heard it was a marketing thing

[torpid star]

Heard good things about these, single manufacturer (Japan)

[night grove]

The letters for "type writer" are all on the top row

[wicked saddle]

Yeah, it was. But then like 12 people became highly obsessed and dedicated their lives to a "perfect" keyboard layout without considering language.

[verbal junco]

we should all just switch to emojis for communication

[night grove]

So sales teams could sell the units without actually knowing how to type

[verbal junco]

emoji code too 👌

[wicked saddle]

So in Germany, Z is a character used much more than Y in their language than in English. So we have QWERTZ here.

[night grove]

Oh wow. The more you know.

[verbal junco]

are you talking about DVORAK? 😅

yep

[night grove]

Japanese and Korean keyboards are wild

So much text written on the keys

[verbal junco]

well yeah, 4 different alphabets

or writing systems

[wicked saddle]

Nah DVORAK was like literally 200 years later. That was efficiency of typing based on digital use.
Traditional typing patterns and keyboard layouts were based on language as a priority.

[night grove]

Isn't Korean the only language that was "engineered" by science?

I remember hearing something like that when I visited

Oh that's it

[wicked saddle]

Yeah for sure, Korean I would actually consider more a "programatic" way of typing than a linguistic one.

[verbal junco]

well the korean king of yore did design it basically

or chose a design

[wicked saddle]

Sure but it's keyboard tends to be more based on priority of character.

[verbal junco]

I can't remember the full story, but hangul was born out of thinking that hanzi were too annoying to memorize and write

[wicked saddle]

Those that are used more regularly are kept in the same area. As far as I know,

...I dated a Korean girl once and had to learn. I didn't learn all of it :p

[wicked saddle]

The more you know :3

[verbal junco]

yeah it's an interesting story

for sure

I've given up on trying to write any type of pictograms (by hand)

I was JUST about to be thankful for the smartphone autocorrect when writing in pictograms

[wicked saddle]

But yeah something like DVORAK is much more recent. It was more about maximising typing efficiency over anything else that would have held up making the perfect keyboard. Basically it assumed one language, and prioritised keys - where anyone making QWERTY, QWERTZ and AZERTY were all prioritising characters based on their individual language. DVORAK works fantastically for english, you could argue you can type faster on it when programming. But doesn't help at all for those who aren't native.

[verbal junco]

well if we're at this level we should also consider the esoteric takes on how to improve languages in general. E Prime is an interesting example

[night grove]

I hate "typing" on a phone

[wicked saddle]

Sure but.. Keeping it at typing here. If DVORAK was the faster approach to typing, we would have all learned DVORAK over QWERTY any day.

[night grove]

I fight auto correct about every 2 or 3 words

So frustrating

[verbal junco]

also at this point I think it's pointless trying to argue one standard over the other. we're so used to our preference at this point

[wicked saddle]

Google keyboard on Android solves my problem. Swipe between a couple letters it guesses the word. Super useful.

[verbal junco]

that does make sense

[night grove]

With this reasoning the US should have switched over to metric by now

There's a lot to be said about deprecating old hardware and old habits

[verbal junco]

on the flipside, british english could get rid of the letter "u" in a lot of words 😉

[wicked saddle]

Exactly, DVORAK is a hard new "language" of typing to learn. It gains efficiency faster when you know it, but it's a harder learning curve than QWERTY.

It's like the Houdini of 3D software.

[night grove]

Oh I see. You were counting the learning time in the typing speed.

[wicked saddle]

Significantly harder to learn, but when you do, your efficiency is exponential.

[verbal junco]

while we're at it

https://monkeytype.com/

have a go

[wicked saddle]

Alright, I'll take your challenge.

[night grove]

Speaking of modeling software. Is it worth it to learn Blender? Assuming I would want to eventually be more of a TA than an engineer.

[wicked saddle]

82%, 99% accuracy.

[verbal junco]

82 wpm?

[night grove]

I took a modeling course once, but it was Cinema 4D, and the teacher didn't even know how to rig.... so I don't think I learned much value.

[verbal junco]

I'd say, generally yes

I've learned blender now and I'm quite happy that I did

but I'm not a TA

[night grove]

Haha... consistency: 79%

flubbed a section on the typing test and freaked the F out

lol

[verbal junco]

I'm just there for the extrude based workflow 🙂

[wicked saddle]

Yeah, for sure. Blender had it's bad run, was considered the "industry outcast" for a long time. But arguably especially with all that Intel, Epic and other beneficiaries with multi-million dollar donations it is quickly becoming a somewhat "all-house" replacement for industry standard tools. It's not going to beat Maya right now with character work for example, but give it a couple years - it's better to get in learning on the ground floor.

Because as soon as it does have enough features that rival Autodesk and Maxon/Pixologic, it will just become the free tool that is used.

[verbal junco]

it does get worse once you hit one error

[wicked saddle]

Yep, I think that's more down to anxiety though. And also I don't use two fingers on my right hand, they generally float.

[verbal junco]

I remember a guy on another discord taking this and getting something like 140 wpm, 95%+ consistency

madness

[night grove]

I thought I was so good at typing

[verbal junco]

I'm at around 75 wpm usually

[night grove]

I got 94 wpm with 96% accuracy

I thought I was higher than that

I type all the freaking time

[wicked saddle]

Yeah I've a friend too that does 120wpm at 95%. But she has learned to use those additional two fingers too. That's what we accounted them for.

My entire left hand is typing, but generally for the right side I use my thumb and my forefinger, middle not so much and the last two for nothing at all.

[verbal junco]

so, never

[night grove]

IKR? What is with open source software and terrible UI design?

[verbal junco]

3d packages have a long standing tradition of having horrible UI

[night grove]

Though... Working in medical I saw some real doozies for UI

I frequently stated the company would do better if they hired professional UX experts

[wicked saddle]

Blender 2.8+ is already a massive improvement to UI. I gave it a solid try for a month, and finally it felt... "more like Substance, Quixel, UE4, etc." than it did any other UI they had before.

[signal citrus]

Please take it back

[night grove]

But the programmers always knew better

[wicked saddle]

Lack of experience! usually anyway.

[bronze axle]

I got 102 wpm / 92% acc.

[night grove]

What about Z Brush?

I've heard it's this amazing thing

[verbal junco]

100+ wpm is at least A+ tier, if not S tier

[night grove]

But I don't really understand how it differs in workflow

[wicked saddle]

Seriously, you have to think about it this way. Someone develops some software, with the idea that they can make a certain aspect more efficient, that software isn't going to be perfect overnight - and because it's open source and not paid, it's hard to get the talent to prioritize something like UX or UI design over anything else. That's partially why 2.8 was a big update. They had that talent to prioritize user experience.

[verbal junco]

zbrush is high poly sculpts

[signal citrus]

I like 3.0

[wicked saddle]

Ah. I've lost all faith with ZBrush.

[verbal junco]

and from what I've heard it also has mad clunky UI

[night grove]

Can't you sculpt in blender?

[wicked saddle]

It got bought by Maxon. And I haven't touched Cinema 4D in 12 years of working in the games industry.

[night grove]

Cinema4D is terrible

[verbal junco]

you can, but it's not as good as zbrush or some such

[night grove]

This much I'm certain

I like Blender's UI much more

[verbal junco]

I don't know, character artists rave about zbrush

I know nothing

[wicked saddle]

I have quickly lost faith in Pixologic, given that Maxon have already announced that you now have to pay for updates to ZBrush.

[signal citrus]

Blender will eventually phase out photoshop

[bronze axle]

Cinema 4D was my first 3d modeling software at 15. I was very lucky to get a brief internship with them because my neighbors worked there.

I have not used it since.

I'm now 37. lol

[wicked saddle]

Zbrush didn't have much to offer anyway, the reason people used it was for Dynamesh and a couple other techniques that other software are quickly adopting.

[night grove]

I took a class in Cinema 4D around 8 years ago

[night grove]

I was thinking this was the thing

I recently saw posts about "buy perpetual license before ZBrush ends it!"

But the perpetual license cost same as a 9 year license...

I was thinking Blender will probably catch up in that time

[wicked saddle]

I disagree actually. Blender is a 3D battle, Glimpse and other tools are trying to phase out Photoshop for the 2D tools battle.

[night grove]

I will have to look up Glimpse

[verbal junco]

I mean probably? blender is more versatile than zbrush. I don't think they're equivalent like that

[night grove]

I like Krita, but I'm a far cry from an artist

[verbal junco]

you can't just use zbrush and export ready made stuff into engine

[signal citrus]

Eventually I believe blender will be the first all in one tool to digital art creation on 2D and 3D. It is like the natural path of where it’s going

[wicked saddle]

(As an interesting point.. For those that don't know. Glimpse is generally the better, more updated fork of GIMP. They specifically started it because the original tool is a homophobic slur and wanted to change it, so they split from the branding.) https://github.com/Glimpse/Glimpse

[night grove]

Oh nice! I didn't know there was a fork of Gimp

[verbal junco]

well tbh I'm hoping they ditch the name in favor of glimpse

[night grove]

I think that is not the right link though

[verbal junco]

if nothing else it's hard to take serious in a professional setting

[wicked saddle]

No one needs an all-in-one tool, and I would argue against it actually. We have a term in programming called a GOD class. It refers to a specific section of programming, or a class, that is responsible for literally everything the program does. This is an irresponsible way of programming.

We have the same issue with programs now. Too many programs trying to do literally all of the things, but cannot do one thing well.

And consequently is why I say you need to specialize in this industry and not generalize. You cannot cover all bases, do one relatively better than the rest.

[signal citrus]

Blender has video editing, sculpting, compositing, animation, geometry, topology, weight painting, vertex color painting and uv mapping, procedural mesh generation, meta balls, particle simulation, rigid simulation, scripting in it already and I just think the tendency is gonna be to let the artist do it all in one single application

[verbal junco]

well most 3d packages handle some degree of sculpting, hard surface, rigging, texturing/materials, AND animation

I think we're long past the notion of a god application

[wicked saddle]

I'm aware of what it has @signal citrus. I'm just saying by distributing a lot of what it can do, means they cannot do all of them well.

[night grove]

You can also make games in Blender... and yet we are all on an Unreal Engine discord.

[regal pecan]

They took that out.

[verbal junco]

you can also make games in godot

[wicked saddle]

Not anymore, Blender Game Engine was deprecated a few years ago.

[verbal junco]

or unity

[night grove]

FML!

[signal citrus]

Falling into the trap of thinking any one specific way of methodology works better without trying is a bit of a problem, and I think the only reason we don’t see the kind of ambitious approach anywhere else isn’t cuz it’s a bad approach, it’s because it’s not a profitable one imo

[verbal junco]

I don't know if the people behind blender are that visionary though

but I would welcome it nonetheless

[night grove]

I want Godot to overtake Unity for making 2D games

Then I will never have to touch Unity again

[verbal junco]

I've not had to touch unity in what... 7 years?

best 7 years of my life. COINCIDENCE?!

[night grove]

haha

[wicked saddle]

Okay. It's a scalability problem. If you want all of these individual areas to be at their most "top tier" then you need more employees and more top-talent to be contributing. Or, for cost efficiency, you distribute that talent across multiple parts of the tool. You cannot have both.

Blender might be open source, but don't be fooled. It's a multi-million dollar program and people are hired to work on it.

[verbal junco]

still needs some sort of visionary to make bigger things happen IMO. let elon musk take over for a while

[wicked saddle]

Wow, I can't react to that image for some reason. Here you go @zinc matrix

🤣

[signal citrus]

Lmao

[wicked saddle]

Elon musk couldn't run a company if he tried.

[verbal junco]

so that's why he's running several 😎

[wicked saddle]

The dude keeps going bankrupt with every company he ran, and continues to have to make settlements in order to keep running the companies he has.

[verbal junco]

oof

[wicked saddle]

It's true. He said it himself, he was homeless with the last SpaceX run.

And he was ousted from Paypal.

You want a dude like that maintaining a company?

[verbal junco]

https://luxurylaunches.com/real_estate/elon-musk-homeless.php

[verbal junco]

maintaining? perhaps not. driving some degree of change? perhaps

[wicked saddle]

He knows how to shift money, not maintain or gain profit of money.

[verbal junco]

I don't know the guy though

so I shouldn't say too much

[wicked saddle]

Point simple - he's a good guy to have in a deal meeting, a guy who can sell something. But he isn't the guy you want running a company.

That's all I'll say on that. xD

Sorry, I've some strong opinions tonight it seems :p