lounge

[stiff crystal]

it's not like it's huge offering even

[ancient hornet]

game is popular because it's one of the best VR games there is I'd say 😛

my VR headset would catch dust if not for it!

[stiff crystal]

I'd debate on that

[ancient hornet]

well it "works well" in the constraint of VR

[stiff crystal]

like, once you play through the campaign, there's not just the same songs to go over and over again

[ancient hornet]

it feels a lot like a game that needs VR and the current tech VR issues seem to not affect it much if at all I mean

[stiff crystal]

I also feel like beat saber doesn't really use VR's potential that much.. you mainly stand in one place looking at one direction, ducking boxes and waving hands

(yes there's 360 etc modes but even those are limited on songs)

what's even more stupid is if you buy a DLC for the game, it doesn't even implement the custom modes 😄

like, wtf

[ancient hornet]

the problem with that kind of game anyway plagues all rhythm games

mostly, music licencing rights :/

I wonder if there would be a way for community making tracks that would piggy back on some music store/spotify thing

hmm

[stiff crystal]

yeah but there's plenty of free to distribute music if you are not into popular songs

[ancient hornet]

clearly the current system is stiffling for those kind of games

[median wraith]

oh well you mean maps because songs there are a lot yeah

[stiff crystal]

like, you could do tons of custom songs without breaking anyones rights

@median wraith that's like 5 or 6 DLC packs

unless one buys individual songs from them (which are in those packs)

[median wraith]

yeah same albums

[stiff crystal]

but yeah, there's very little variety

imagine your game audience liking those specific few artists

[median wraith]

I did an auto spectrum etc detector

but still think is better if the songs are defined by someone

fits the overall better

[stiff crystal]

pretty sure most custom songs are hand crafted

[median wraith]

yeah thats the thing, the auto systems could be decent if are driven by AI or something, but by default logics goes nowhere at all

kinds repetitive and boring for all songs at least on my case

[stiff crystal]

I suppose

[ancient hornet]

well that's because the good tracks have some style on their own I feel

if you used the same "style" on every music, you could get by with very little variety even if the music is different

I'm not sure how AI would manage that 🙂

though AI assistant tools could matter a lot

[median wraith]

mods aren't official from what I see or they are ?

[ancient hornet]

pretty sure there is official support

didn't they release a track editor?

https://bsmg.wiki/pc-modding.html

Beat Saber natively supports custom songs, so if that's all you're looking for, you don't require more mods!

[median wraith]

oh yeah

I have to make an editor so will take note of that

I don't really get linkedin anymore

why I'm game designer ?

I have no clue anymore

but this is interesting they are even splitting the designers into economics only ones

to manage microtransations

about all the open positions are for seniors

[soft night]

not lead game designer

[cursive crypt]

economics = mmo

[median wraith]

mmm here lists micro transations

I bet it extended outside of MMO ?

or well could apply in every area

[cursive crypt]

mmo / microtransaction, are you gonna fall so much? 😄

[median wraith]

I don't really like this

I had to refill 6 sites

in 2 days

[cursive crypt]

Creating accounts?

[median wraith]

yeah they dodn't even allow to create it

you apply for a possition and I have to refill all from ground

example Ubisoft have their own, Epic their own

[cursive crypt]

Yeah... they big enough for that.

[median wraith]

they ask for my twitter lol

[cursive crypt]

Yeah, many do, they can research you upfront this way.

Like, do you over salt your food or not.

[median wraith]

well depends

not at all lately

they changed this for non binary etc it seems

[cursive crypt]

Yeah, ppl be insulted for not recognized.

[fresh heath]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzPTK91EJY8

[humble remnant]

Older consoles are so good for homebrews and otherwise

Kinda sad that modern consoles don't really allow that, apart from Xbox's developer mode

I've wondered if it's possible to cut down as much possible off UE4 so that it can run on a PSP

There's a decent amount of SDKs that allow hardware acceleration so it will be interesting

Some decently good looking games ran on the little thing, like Resistance Retribution, so I believe there is a possibility to make it work

Just need to figure out how to make a custom renderer to include its hardware acceleration since it ran on something hella old and/or proprietary

[zinc matrix]

Months later, still feels weird to read about unity on yahoo finance...

The most important thing to note is the forecast of increased losses next year, suggesting all may not be well at Unity Software. Happily, there were no major changes to revenue forecasts, with the business still expected to grow faster than the wider industry. We note an upgrade to the price target, suggesting that the analysts believes the intrinsic value of the business is likely to improve over time.

https://simplywall.st/stocks/us/software/nyse-u/unity-software

apparently everyone? expects unity to become profitable in 3 years

did I miss something? did unity say something like that?

[tidal ivy]

have they ever been profitable?

[median wraith]

It looks like yes ?

[tidal ivy]

apparently no

Unity has never been profitable, ever

https://www.businessinsider.com/unity-ipo-filing-game-engine-epic-games-2020-8?r=DE&IR=T#:~:text=Unity is still losing money&text=Last year%2C it lost %24163.2,from 2%2C715 on December 31.

[median wraith]

mmmm

[tidal ivy]

they have over 3000 employees, though God only knows what they all do

[zinc matrix]

no they've never been profitable (it was stated on initial filing) which is why I'm scratching my head at the 3 year profitability forecast

[median wraith]

lol

[tidal ivy]

yeah, I doubt this is going to change

[humble remnant]

3000?

[tidal ivy]

yup

[humble remnant]

2995 of them are marketing or administration I swear

[zinc matrix]

3700+ employees (sep 2020)

[median wraith]

700 are directors then

[zinc matrix]

incidentally, on their annual report, 3 of the 4 highlights are about ads and service, only thing that is related to unity engine is that they had apple silicon exporters... 😄

https://investors.unity.com/news/news-details/2021/Unity-Announces-Fourth-Quarter-and-Full-Year-2020-Financial-Results/default.aspx

[median wraith]

I still don't get if isn't a profitable company how the hell have that number of employees ?

[humble remnant]

They aren't profitable because they keep adding employees then

Anyway, somewhat relevant to recent nemesis system discussion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07trilIiilk

[median wraith]

I never meet a person that works at Unity despite they have that amount of employees

not even ever seen a work position at Unity

[tidal ivy]

patenting game mechanics isn't supposed to even be possible

but companies wrap their descriptions in wads of weasel-words like "with a processor" and "using memory" and all of a sudden they can squeeze it through

it's bullshit

[humble remnant]

A nemesis system is something that honestly can be thought up by anyone who has any idea of how to make a procedural game have a personal story

[tidal ivy]

WB are basically pretending they have some kind of fancy unique algorithm, but there's no software component to their software patent

[zinc matrix]

I never went to unite or something, but I've frequently heard that whenever someone asked about a dev question, one of the devs would answer immediately, and whenever someone asked about a sales question, they would frequently get redirected to 5+ marketing people only to end up getting redirected to an email address.

I didn't believe it at first, but kept hearing similar stories over and over again

that was years ago

[tidal ivy]

you can substitute the word "processor" with "dungeon master" and "memory" with "character sheet", and their entire patent just reads like basic Dungeon Master guide material

"A method comprising:
controlling, by a processor, game events in a computer-implemented game, the game events involving an avatar that is operated in response to input from a player, and a first non-player character that is controlled in response to a first set of character parameters defined in a computer memory and in response to operation of the avatar;
detecting, by the processor, occurrence of a predefined game event involving the non-player character;
changing, by the processor, a second set of character parameters defined in a computer memory for control of a second non-player character in the game based on the detecting; and
outputting, to an output device, an indication of the second set of character parameters that are changed by the changing."

[humble remnant]

The patent is so goddamn ambiguous

[tidal ivy]

it's absurd

[median wraith]

I should patent my accessibility systems for 60k sounds good, later after generate a 100$ profit from the games and some AAA company use it changing something and making the whole patent non applicable 😂

[humble remnant]

You can legit meet the same conditions in a multiplayer game

[foggy path]

the patent is most likely worthless if it's that generic

someone just has to get sued and take it to court :P

[median wraith]

Patents are per country territory isn't it ?

[tidal ivy]

yes

the above translates to "if the player makes a decision during an in game event, some data involving a non-player-character will be changed, and subsequently may also cause another non-player-character's data to be changed"

[median wraith]

yeah i just wondering because in USA cost about 60k a patent and in spain cost 1k

that makes sense

[humble remnant]

So basically, cross-faction relationships can be fit in that patent too

[tidal ivy]

in D&D terms it's like saying "if the player character murders this woman, the husband won't like it"

but it's wrapped in absolute bullshit weasel words

[humble remnant]

Adam Millard talked about the nemesis system in a video recently and it's quite clever, but the patent just makes it a daft bastard now

[tidal ivy]

it's a neat set of game mechanics, but it's hardly groundbreaking

[humble remnant]

It was only a matter of time until it got implemented

[tidal ivy]

it's just not the kind of thing you necessarily see outside of pen and paper

aye

"if the player usurps the king, they may claim the thrown, but the king and his immediate family will naturally also react"

it's that kind of thing, super basic RPG stuff

[humble remnant]

Isn't that something that fits in the definition of an immersive world

Friend of my enemy is also my enemy and so on

[fluid bloom]

I have few coworkers working at unity

or at least they were, no idea what's the status now 🤔

unity has an office in Helsinki

[zinc matrix]

seems like a rather specific patent now that I'm reading it

won't be able to apply it to anything else but a shadow of mordor clone

maybe a power trip from a mid-level manager at wb or something? feels like something management would do for the sake of doing "work"

[humble remnant]

With enough lawyer power, you can get some profit out of that

I guarantee it

[zinc matrix]

nah, as far as patents go this is pretty specific. really vile patents are the ones that have broad descriptions. this is literally just describing nemesis system in a super focused way

[fluid bloom]

isn't the patent basically about doing stuff XYZ to a game entity A and then the game somehow responding to XYZ and creating an entity B in response?

I think it's incredibly stupid

[zinc matrix]

all patents are stupid 🤷

[humble remnant]

Patents are basically claiming 1st place in who thought up of something

[cursive crypt]

mp3 patent?

[zinc matrix]

done and gone, thankfully

[cursive crypt]

I guess they are more about big players to play with. Think car / gun makers also patent a ton.

[median wraith]

anyway the mp3 patent didn't affect us at all so

wasn't one of the original devs working for Epic ?

or was other format

[cursive crypt]

I beg to differ, there were tons of workarounds for mp3 dll's.

Though that might be due to the license itself.

[fluid bloom]

I don't agree, they're good for something

but for trivial stuff like the nemesis system? Nope

for things like extreme ultraviolet lithography? Yes

or so 😛

[zinc matrix]

I would disagree

extreme tech patents are non sensical in most cases

[fluid bloom]

so your business model would be to steal the secrets and just do your own thing?

[zinc matrix]

not because someone would steal the research

[median wraith]

yeah but I mean by the last years we got so many solutions related with that that the actuall patented thing wasn't even need

[zinc matrix]

but because replicating them is nigh impossible without independent research on the subject

[median wraith]

Epic didn't wanted to add mp3 despite the patent was lifted

[zinc matrix]

if china were to invade taiwan right now and taiwan gov. would burn the tsmc plants down

recreating them would be... lets just say problematic

so is recreating them on another country's soil

[tidal ivy]

patents for certain types of products make sense - but they should also include a requirement to be used or be lost, and they should expire within a reasonable timeframe

[zinc matrix]

technology advanced to a point that patenting really high tech inventions became pointless

[tidal ivy]

as it stands the USPTO is a complete joke, which is why there are patents for all kinds of retarded shit like time travel, anti-gravity devices etc

[zinc matrix]

they can only be used in court as the "nuclear" option, not to promote growth or independent research

[median wraith]

Why Minecraft wasn't patented by Microsoft ?

🤖

the whole world system logics and tech

[humble remnant]

The tech is procedural noise

The components of the generation are simply a noise algorithm in 3D

[median wraith]

well no the whole chunk management and storage

sure could be patented

as Crytek could have patented LODs

😂

imagine that

not sure if was Crytek the original creators

[zinc matrix]

The origin[1] of all the LOD algorithms for 3D computer graphics can be traced back to an article by James H. Clark in the October 1976 issue of Communications of the ACM.

LODs are safe, according to wikipedia at least 😄

[median wraith]

oh were before realtime then

But I think Crytek were then the first to take them to realtime ?

[zinc matrix]

unreal tournament had it iirc

not sure who used it first though

could be misremembering though

[median wraith]

wasn't UT driven by portals ala quake ?

[humble remnant]

Portals

I miss that tech straight inside the engine

Probs sucks for performance but goddamn was it cool to have an infinite loop

[zinc matrix]

Unreal Tournament, released in November 1999, was, in a way, an accident. After the original Unreal was completed, Epic wanted to follow up the project with some sort of add-on pack.

...

Programmer Erik de Neve was in Europe putting together level-of-detail code as well as experimenting with next-generation technology.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131569/postmortem_epic_games_unreal_.php

[median wraith]

oh thats good to know

[zinc matrix]

thought I misremembered one of the articles for later ut games for a second, but apparently lods were in the first unreal tournament too

Erik de Neve's level-of-detail code ended up really speeding the game up, giving us room for beefier characters and more map decorations.

you don't say 😄

[fathom wadi]

and now we have optimisation routines that will only render a single pixel of a mesh if that is all that is displayed on screen

[zinc matrix]

The Unreal Tournament engine's strong object-oriented design makes it extremely modular. This modularity allowed our programmers to make massive changes to parts of the game without affecting other features. Each subsystem is connected to other subsystems through a clearly defined interface

😅

[median wraith]

https://youtu.be/43V16tXFE8g?t=86

I thought the xIsland was the first but

by 99 they had it already it seems

[humble remnant]

Pretty cool

It's rather automatic too

You can change the bias to anything and it automorphs it

[zinc matrix]

Spyro the Dragon pioneered the use of LOD (Level of Detail) technology to achieve huge draw distances by reducing the polygon count and texture detail of objects as they get further from the player, or increasing it as they get closer.

Apparently spyro used it in 1998

[humble remnant]

Old tech was so impressive, I miss those days

[zinc matrix]

old days where real programmers used assembly? 😄

[median wraith]

XD

Can tell back in the days when you had 2 docs of references you had todo everything

[zinc matrix]

apparently peter molyneux's friends ridiculed him for using C -a high level language- to create games back in the day 😄

[median wraith]

today with 1 million of videos every one is dev

[zinc matrix]

I'm sure 30 years from now kids will look back at these days with horror. How could old timey people make video games where even tutorial videos only had millions of views! 😄

[median wraith]

I don't see a bright future overall

Like not sure who will want to do games if they will get paid the same of someone selling bread

is whats going on here

[humble remnant]

At this point I feel like the only thing going forward is graphical improvements

[cursive crypt]

There will be the holy trio Roblox, Minecraft and Fortnite.

[humble remnant]

The possibility for unique concepts has been there forever but engines can't do much to add more gameplay

[median wraith]

back in the days the games sector gave somehow in return the income based on the job you do

right now is kinda different

[soft night]

@median wraith if linkedin think you as game designer what you identify yourself?

[median wraith]

I'm set as technical artist / light artist

they calle me for programmer usually and I worked for it but I like art the most

[soft night]

well those can fall to the game designer

if not count the programmer

[humble remnant]

Isn't technical artist more like finding a way to a unique art style?

Or y'know, some impressive tech that improves graphics in a way

[median wraith]

The point of this is back in the days the players seen the game developers with admiration as what they could do with low resources.
Right now the games are know by every individual but they know less about what effort is needed or how big are the teams.
There are a lot of devs that spent years and years have amazing works and failed because aren't part of the ecosystem...
And as final step if something turns the common as happened in the sector then it will have nothing interesting to offer, less when they discover these are human farms in most of the cases and I already meet people thinking that like why will work in a human farm and spend 6 years to get the same income I get in a store selling products

at least is a reality here

sad and true

[median wraith]

thats the graphics programmer

[fluid bloom]

still no AMDs 5950Xs in stock!!111

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaa

fucking hell, it'll be summer before I get my new computer

and by that time there'll probably be a refresh

[fathom wadi]

you know what has never mattered to anyone outside of the games industry? Game credits. There are hardly any gamers can tell you more than 5 game developers who aren't household names in the industry. Why do people crave them so much as their reward/dopamine system?

[median wraith]

Who talks about games insdustry talks about films

I know people that get scandalized when they see the credits 500 individuals to make a 3D dog

[zinc matrix]

people will always try to do what they love. Even if they make the same amount of money as a retail clerk, they'll still make video games over making sandwiches.

I don't think the industry would become that bad though

[fathom wadi]

Im just trying to do what it takes to get my family out of this shithole tbh

what I love as a career means nothing anymore 😄

[zinc matrix]

besides, there are many other industries adjacent to game development

I'm not sure if there is a field that is specific to video game development

there's always an overlap

[median wraith]

well if isn't comparable in effort they won't do aren't stupids

and is happening

[zinc matrix]

plenty of indies work on their games 16 hours a day with only ramen to fill their bellies

[fathom wadi]

"I'd go down on a lawman for a gallon of gas right now" - Mickey Knox.
This sums up my desperation to leave this island

[median wraith]

Well if different an indie

[zinc matrix]

they probably would have to work less and make more money in retail tbh

[median wraith]

from a guy hired at some company

[zinc matrix]

actually, most indie devs would make more money from retail

[median wraith]

I spend 6 years without get income to learn things

[fathom wadi]

@zinc matrix games dev isn't work when you are doing it as a hobby. It's a past-time. When you say indie, what scope do you mean? Bedroom coders or companies?

[median wraith]

I don't think most of people can do that

[zinc matrix]

since most never release, or release to obscruty to begin with

[zinc matrix]

people that burn their savings to make a start as an indie dev, usually using unity, or another established game engine

[fathom wadi]

ahh thats a hobbyist

[zinc matrix]

no, a hobbyist wouldn't do it as their primary job and burn through their savings

[fathom wadi]

yes they would

if they believe their hobby is what they want as a career. Doesnt make them an indie game dev in a career tho

[zinc matrix]

a hobbyist is a person that would do game dev after returning home to from their daily job

[fathom wadi]

there is validity in that too

[zinc matrix]

that is gatekeeping imho. If you start working full time on a game development project, you are an indie developer for me.

if you do it on the side, that is a hobby 100%

[fathom wadi]

im not gat4ekeeping. That kind of twitter lingo is just insulting tbh

[median wraith]

I will be honest, after work at some sites where I had to spend almost 10h per day inside the same place, released products in a improper status or non polished to get 5€ more per month than someone selling tshirt in the near street
Can tell you when you had to do that it isn't your passion anymore if someone is telling you to do something wrongly as should be or you think it should be

[fathom wadi]

Im saying I am a hobbyist but when I work for an indie company, this is a career where I work my hours paid and move on. It's not something I prefer to do 16 hours when im not getting paid. Unless its my own project

[median wraith]

anyway my expectations are on downhill constant run

[zinc matrix]

I'm just saying that slapping "hobbyist" label to a person that works full time on their own project 16 hours a day is a bit insulting, and is within the definition of the word gatekeeping. Whether or not their work gets released is irrelevant.

[median wraith]

Tbh I did myself that

[fathom wadi]

I dont get insulted when I call myself a jobbyist for working 16 hours on my own project. Not sure why anyone else would

a professional gets paid

heh jobbyist

[median wraith]

I spend 3 years working on projects alone that I got in return 400$ in total

[fathom wadi]

sounds like a make turds, which I do if you read my code :p

[median wraith]

by these histories aren't published

[fathom wadi]

@median wraith dont brag dude. Some of us did that time entirely unpaid 😄

[median wraith]

I did half year unpaid for others too

actually more but

[zinc matrix]

by that definition only devs that get paid a salary are professional devs?

thats kind of a fuzzy definition you have there tbh

[fathom wadi]

you should work for free for me, and Ill work for free for you. Then we get both get paid 😄

@zinc matrix yeah its the definition of professional

[zinc matrix]

😄

[fathom wadi]

not being professional, being A professional game dev

[zinc matrix]

so where does "indie" developer lie within your definition?

[fathom wadi]

depends. Thats why I asked you which you meant. You could be an indie dev at an indie company with no publisher. You could be an indie dev with a publisher and a company, you could be an indie freelancer, you could be a jobbyist selling jobbys. But if I were to put a strict definition on it, working professional for a company that is unbeholden to a publisher that is not within the scope of the upper eschelon of higher tier budgets.

[zinc matrix]

I think you are getting closer to arguing semantics here. Within your definition, Stardew Valley developer was a hobbyist for 4 years, and became a professional developer only after his release.

[fathom wadi]

its purely demantics I agree

semantics. damn my claw handed typing

[zinc matrix]

At the end of the day, imho a hobbyist pursues enjoyment, while someone with a job pursues money to make a living.

If you focus your entire effort in one field for the purpose of making money, calling that effort "hobbyist" is just gatekeeping at its core.

you are differentiating based on nothing

[fathom wadi]

imho a hobbyist pursues enjoyment, while someone with a job pursues money to make a living.

thats why I said

what

but it doesn't matter. semantics right?

[median wraith]

We should start talking about all the indies I know that have 3 works at time because their games at different stores and platforms don't return them a proper income to survive.
The common cases are too wasted already

And yeah aren't bad or small games

[zinc matrix]

dude you don't have a clear definition to begin with. I think it is fairly obvious you are basically talking with your gut because your response is literally "depends"

and yet you call a guy that works 16 hours a day full time on a game a hobbyist

[fathom wadi]

I said I am a hobbyist when I work on my own stuff, Im an indie dev when I get paid. It's plain and simple. But if you want to agree and carry on it's ok. I can mute/block/etc it's upto you

in fact fuck it

not in the mood for the internet today

[zinc matrix]

there's another word between hobby and profession, amateur

[fathom wadi]

the rest of your career to me

[zinc matrix]

that's what happens if you can't defend your own argument I guess. If slightest disagreement will lead you to ignore people, be my guest 😄

[median wraith]

And by the way

the people I know kinda consider it a hobby as don't return the income to cover each month with it

despite they sell the games and work 16h per day

They teach, record them in live at twitch doing dev, and sell the products, meanwhile have a family

these are the real heroes here

and nobody will come to help them

[zinc matrix]

if they consider it a hobby that is different. Pursuing a career is different than pursuing a hobby. They probably "kinda consider" it as a hobby because it doesn't pay the bills, that is different than what I and marc was discussing.

I don't have a negative outcome for the industry in general. As time goes on it'll become even more difficult to break into the market for an individual though, no disagreements there.

books and movies have already gone through these growing pains

there was a time where people were "movie watchers"

not everyone would go to movies, or could afford to go to movies, now everyone can watch tv

tv/movie industry is doing fine relatively speaking

[median wraith]

I worked as freelance and for companies, idk if is due the corona virus but it's a pain right now to find some job it seems

Seems like there aren't many and the ones you find get insta picked

[zinc matrix]

well, global recession is basically a certainty at this point, so yeah, things will be hard for everyone

[fluid bloom]

so you're saying.... buy the dip?

[zinc matrix]

yes exactly! (this is not a financial advice)

😄

[fluid bloom]

re: recession: at least in Finland the metal/manufacturing industry is showing signs of fast recovery

[fresh heath]

https://foundation.rust-lang.org/posts/2021-02-08-hello-world/

[fluid bloom]

nice

[fresh heath]

I wonder if Unreal is going to have some kind of interop with Rust eventually

[fluid bloom]

I doubt it

[cursive crypt]

Rust the lang or the game or else?

[fluid bloom]

so much baggage in the engine already

[fresh heath]

the lang

[zinc matrix]

The board of directors is composed of 5 directors from our Founding member companies, AWS, Huawei, Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla,

Nice

[cursive crypt]

Ah... Why would they?

[zinc matrix]

ue4 can't even make its gameframework threadsafe. I doubt rust interop would ever happen from epic's side

[fluid bloom]

yeah

the rust code would be full of unsafe

[zinc matrix]

even if they did, you'd have to work with unsafe rust

[fluid bloom]

though I wouldn't mind, pattern matching would be awesome 😄

[zinc matrix]

yep, exactly

daily reminder that we could've ended the virus at any point by imposing a 2 week total lockdown. We could do that now, and virtually end it in 2 weeks.

[fluid bloom]

I doubt that

[fathom wadi]

https://anti-loneliness.redcross.org.uk/ Game for 20 hours, sponsored.

[zinc matrix]

2 week lockdown -> no new infections for 2 weeks -> only remaining sick people would be the hospitalized cases or the ones in self isolation

china did it, they are still doing it. 100 cases and the city gets locked down hard

the only reason they have to keep doing it is because rest of the world isn't doing it

you don't have to look at china alone, there's also new zealand 😄

would it eliminate covid completely? no. that's why I said virtually to begin with. But it would be so effective that we wouldn't have to look for a vaccine

sars didn't need a vaccine

hmm...

That's a lie. Unhappy people build better programs.

[fluid bloom]

I don't think there even are laws in Finland that would allow the government to force people to be quarantined

China being an authoritarian country is a different story

[zinc matrix]

well, good thing about laws is you can make them. This is a global pandemic, if there aren't any pandemic laws, this is the best time to make them

There are no in Poland and nobody cares. We have lockdown without lockdown.

2.4 million people died, and that is the official numbers

[mossy nexus]

Well the good news is the due to Brexit exports have gone up 68%.... no wait... exports have gone down 68% 😄

[zinc matrix]

There is at least 1 person that makes a very strong case(!) for methamphetamine use in mathematics 😄

[mossy nexus]

The advice the UK Government is giving to UK companies that deal with the EU is to open a business in the EU. So make some people unemployed in the UK, create a business in the EU paying EU taxes etc etc... ahh Brexit.. the gift that keeps on giving. 😄

[zinc matrix]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erdős

one of the most prolific mathematicians and producers of mathematical conjectures[2] of the 20th century.

attributed his success to meth (not kidding)

Known for A very large number of results and conjectures (more than 1,500 articles), and a very large number of coauthors (more than 500).

[fathom wadi]

@mossy nexus luckily nobody wants their advice anymore. We just need one of them election thingies to put in the other Tory from the other party.

[mossy nexus]

Could you imagine Priti Patel as PM? shudder

[fathom wadi]

I don't even imagine Boris as one 😄

[mossy nexus]

yup 😄

[zinc matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/breakingbad-science-yeah-science-gif-5954775

people that are still promoting lockdowns at this stage are beyond me

[fathom wadi]

depends where you are and what stage of vaccination its upto I guess

[zinc matrix]

it doesnt though

yes, we should just wait for the vaccine, we could afford another million deaths, and dozens of millions increased healthcare costs for the next 50 years.

vaccination wont stop the lockdowns

[mossy nexus]

people that don't understand that all hospitals are under so much strain due to people not keeping distance etc etc are beyond me...

[zinc matrix]

not true

[fathom wadi]

my 90 year old Nan just got out of hospital after getting covid whilst she was 100% locked down, which probably means she got it from home shopping sources. Thats kind of scary as I haven't seen her for a year and if I miss saying goodbye it would break me.

[mossy nexus]

A friend of mine is a paramedic here in the UK. He has seen what is going on, he has seen how quickly it takes for the disease to go from mild breathing issues to being put on a ventilator. It is true.

[zinc matrix]

irrelevant @mossy nexus

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/badman-batman-science-gif-7722710

[zinc matrix]

that has nothing to do with lockdowns

does he tell you about people that are diabetic? and how they die?

or cancer?

lockdowns work though. inability to adhere to lockdowns is specific to western world

[fathom wadi]

slowly backs away from the incitement

[zinc matrix]

lungcancer is nasty as fuck, gonna force people to stop smoking now?

vietnam locked down hard and they are in better shape then usa

same with new zealand

there are more factors at play there

not just how strict a lockdown is

[mossy nexus]

the spread of the disease is everything to do with lockdowns. The fact that hospitals are struggling is the reason for lockdowns. The fact that many normal medical operations have to be cancelled due to the disease is the reason for the lockdowns.

[zinc matrix]

or how many people adhere to it

I'm not sure what you are advocating

if no lockdowns, then what?

hospitals are struggling because of the lockdown

because 25%+ of the workers there are at home because theyve tested positive

[mossy nexus]

https://tenor.com/view/huh-confused-what-rabbit-cute-gif-15285567

[zinc matrix]

no, they are struggling because people are getting infected.

thats like... yeah... what?

hospitals here are pretty much empty

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/simpsons-homer-pizza-hide-gif-5227569

[fathom wadi]

back to baking dogs and things with manny.

[zinc matrix]

where is here?

it has everything to do with policies

netherlands

but its not just here

great, what is the population of netherlands? and what is the population of usa?

again, irrelevant

it is very relevant

usa is better off than we are

[mossy nexus]

no, you are irrelevant

[zinc matrix]

nice, personal attack @mossy nexus

lets imagine for a second this was a proper pandemic, like a proper one

ebola style

[mossy nexus]

allow me to rephrase : your opinions are just as irrelevant to us, as our comments are to you

[zinc matrix]

https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/?areas=eur&areas=usa&areas=nld&areasRegional=usny&areasRegional=usca&areasRegional=usfl&areasRegional=ustx&cumulative=0&logScale=0&per100K=1&startDate=2020-09-01&values=cases

[unborn lotus]

this is a proper pandemic

[zinc matrix]

in which world usa is doing better than netherlands?

that is per 100k numbers

no your comments are not irrelevant to me, i guess thats where the difference lies @mossy nexus

[mossy nexus]

ebola kills it's host quickly, which is why it doesn't spread far.

[zinc matrix]

but imagine it has the same death rate

combine that with age of population, and you'll see netherlands is doing pretty ok

netherlands is in full lockdown

curfew

per population death rate of netherlands is half of usa

https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/?areas=eur&areas=usa&areas=nld&areasRegional=usny&areasRegional=usca&areasRegional=usfl&areasRegional=ustx&cumulative=0&logScale=0&per100K=1&startDate=2020-09-01&values=deaths

like what are you talking about

and mandatory face massks

[mossy nexus]

The USA is facing a massive increase in infections and deaths

[zinc matrix]

and it has had 0 effect on the numbers

[mossy nexus]

except every scientist says otherwise

[zinc matrix]

from the charts that I'm looking it clearly had an effect

thats just not true @mossy nexus

ive heard plenty of doctors say otherwise

what didn't have an effect was the half assed lockdowns and opening up schools and travel restrictions

Elections has big impact on new infections. They pretty much stop them.

so say it does have an effect, how long would you want to keep it up?

how much of the economy would you want to destroy for people to feel safe again

at 0 infected?

as I've said, if the world collectively got its shit together, we could pretty much eliminate the thing in two weeks. You know, like china, new zealand, vietnam, laos, south korea, etc

that will never happen @zinc matrix

there is no global collective

[merry ermine]

lecomte is proof of that

[zinc matrix]

your way of thinking is exactly why that won't happen

so its all my fault now?

[mossy nexus]

Masks help stop the spread since it can be spread in aerosol form. It doesn't help you from getting the disease, but does help you from spreading it. Note the word is help - every step that is taken to help stop the spread is better than no step being taken

[zinc matrix]

china still controls the virus very effectively, so does other countries

why can't netherlands? because lockdowns? come one dude

depends on the price @mossy nexus

[foggy path]

FFP2/3 masks do protect you as well afaik

[zinc matrix]

haha im sorry I dont believe anything thats coming from china

[mossy nexus]

How many dead people are worth not wearing a mask?

[zinc matrix]

then believe south korea?

you know its not only china that stopped or nearly stopped it

but everyone focuses on china for some reason

you do realize theres more to life than corona right?

🙄

people losing everything theyve worked for

people commiting suicide

young kids getting depressed losing their perspective on the future

what? @zinc matrix

I mean I dont believe anything china reports to the rest of the world

why wouldnt corona be real

its obviously real

do you realize 2.4 million people died from it, dozens of millions will suffer due to permanent scarred tissue, billions will suffer due to recession? like, yeah, there's more to life than covid..

I doubt 2.4 died because of it.

thats such bs man

not to mention the non-corona deaths due to hospitals being full etc

2.4 million people did not die from covid

[zinc matrix]

you saw nothing... 😄

[foggy path]

oh wait we have an antimasker here?

kek 🍿

[zinc matrix]

10 years later when the real estimates of covid deaths come out

I hope you'll remember what you've said lecomte 😄

I hope you'll remember me too when we're looking at the state of the world and the suicide rates

[uncut otter]

LMAO props to whomever made this

[zinc matrix]

Oh I'll remember, don't worry 😄

[foggy path]

It's funny how he's basically just repeating the conspiracy stuff lol

[uncut otter]

I thought I was watching some agriculture commercial in the background on youtube

[zinc matrix]

you do know Im right here right? @foggy path

[foggy path]

yes, so? :P

[uncut otter]

job well done on the graphics

[zinc matrix]

bit disrespectful @foggy path

[uncut otter]

anyway i just woke up

[zinc matrix]

has nothing to do with conspiracies

[foggy path]

yeah except it does because the conspiracy nuts are basically saying exactly what you just said

[zinc matrix]

the damage im seeing has far more to do with the lockdowns etc

old people dying alone

not able to see their kids

not even if they want to

[foggy path]

Yeah this is literally what the conspiracy nuts are saying

lol

[zinc matrix]

dude what are you talking about, this is actually happening

my own grandma was almost taken away

[foggy path]

Cool

[zinc matrix]

youre saying old people arent dying alone?

youre saying people arrent losing their livelihoods?

2.4 million people did not die from covid

yet

dude what are you talking about, this is actually happening

[foggy path]

My friend's granpa died of covid because they weren't taking enough precautions so I dunno mang

[zinc matrix]

same person!

[foggy path]

Think he'd rather have not seen his granpa for a while than him being dead

[zinc matrix]

definitions man

covid is mostly a comorbidity

like the flu

like, easily verified list of deaths? bullshit. But my specific experience? Real shit

[zinc matrix]

what?

[foggy path]

lol more of the conspiracy stuff

[zinc matrix]

would you?

[foggy path]

you're literally saying exactly the same things my dumbass friend said

and he's a covid denier basically

[zinc matrix]

dude every thing I say is a conspiracy? thats one way to win every argument

[foggy path]

is there a website where you can copy paste this stuff from?

lol

[zinc matrix]

Im not a covid denier

stop putting words in my mouth

[zinc matrix]

you literally denied it

holy shit

looool

I did not

[foggy path]

don't eat the words if you don't want them in your mouth

[zinc matrix]

tell me where I denied covid exists

[foggy path]

has he said anything about "I'm thinking with my own brain" yet?

[zinc matrix]

so here's the thing. you think covid is comorbidity, but 2.4 million did not die from covid?

[foggy path]

That's another one of those

"think for yourself!"

[zinc matrix]

thats like, they wouldn't have died if they didn't get covid, but covid isn't an issue because it doesn't kill on its own?

I'm not sure how you can make such logical leaps tbh

it does kill on its own, but it hasnt killed 2.4 million on its own

theres a nuance

so, covid kills people, but there's a nuance

Probably 2.4 million died with covid as one of things they had.

[foggy path]

what difference does it make lol

[zinc matrix]

exactly @zinc matrix

it makes a big difference

nuance is super important with these things

[foggy path]

oh really

[zinc matrix]

nuance? what the hell dude...

dying with covid and from covid are different things

[foggy path]

why's nobody talking about how many people died of cancer

[zinc matrix]

those people wouldn't have died if it wasn't for covid

[foggy path]

and how many people died of something else but also coincidentally had cancer

lol

[zinc matrix]

more people will die because covid

thats like holy fucking shit man

thats true yes

just wondering

lots of these people would have lived longer if not for covid

not denying that

do you subscribe to /r/europe?

whats that

because this basically /r/europe level of sociopath right here

so now im a sociopath

lovely conversation this is

[foggy path]

this is literally word for word what my dumbass friend's saying... seriously is there a website which just lists all this lol

[zinc matrix]

Im not on any of those websites you might think im on

even if covid doesn't kill on its own, the fact that 2.4 million people died remains. but still you can somehow spin that into covid isn't dangerous and lockdowns don't work (even though there is data that they do) and cause more suicides

so any way to just have a convo abuot this without you guys insulting me?

[foggy path]

spreading bullshit tends to have the effect of people not respecting you

[zinc matrix]

your facts were literally wrong too, you just said netherlands had worse per population death rates than usa when the data showed netherlads had less than HALF the deathrates of usa

so thats a no from you, what about you @zinc matrix

no one is insulting you

no I did not say the ntherlands had worse per population death rate

I said theyre worse off

dude come on @zinc matrix

we are beyond belief of the logical leaps you are commiting

I am in genuine awe

really

[foggy path]

it's basically people like you whose fault it is that all these people died of covid

hope you're happy with your freedom to think for yourself

[zinc matrix]

so lets just discuss it then, so I can actually explain myself instead of you guys trying to put me in a conspiracy corner

and now its my fault all these people died

haha

but no, no insults here

[foggy path]

it would help if you literally didn't use every single talking point the conspiracy nuts use

it's literally the same ones

[zinc matrix]

I couldnt care less what other people say

[foggy path]

that's not my problem lol

[zinc matrix]

Ok, you said same death rate. I guess that completely nullifies my point even though what you claimed was basically wrong and was still promptly ignored by you

but who needs facts right?

where did I say same death rate?

I literally quoted you

dude i said imagine it has the same death rate as ebola

dont just grab 1 line out of context

that had nothing to do with NL vs US

[foggy path]

Huh, I'm surprised that he actually has asked one question about UE4 several months ago

I assumed this was a fresh troll account lol

[zinc matrix]

dude its like 3 against 1, barely have the time to type to defend myself let alone just talk about things @zinc matrix

sources for what

oh, so you basically completely ignored the data over hypothetical situations

like what you exactly said with 2.4 million deaths comments

yeah, I can see a pattern here

can we focus on 1 thing

[foggy path]

I'm just waiting for him to pull the 100% reliable sources

[zinc matrix]

are we gonna focus on the 2.4 million death thing?

nothing is 100% reliable @foggy path

if you think anything is, you're a fool.

2.4 million death thing? thing? thing?

[foggy path]

I want to watch some funny videos he's gonna pull as his sources

[zinc matrix]

yes, thing

you want to talk about that thing, the 2.4 death number?

as I've said, sociopath 😄

im not gonna pull anything @foggy path

I highly recommend you visit /r/europe

youve also said, noone is insulting me @zinc matrix

[foggy path]

okay so you don't actually have any sources lol

[zinc matrix]

youre just waiting for me to give up right? instead of having a proper convo about things without insults?

dude, you are basically going in circles

no, im asking, what are we going to focus on

i cant answer 20 things

you want to talk about the 2.4 death count?

you answered 1 thing asked and still went in circles

[mossy nexus]

Simply provide legitimate sources for your arguments.

[foggy path]

"I'm not a covid denier but..." is the new "I'm not a racist but..."

[zinc matrix]

just say yes lets focus on the 2.4 million number

then we'll talk about that

I'll give my arguments

then you can disagree and call me a psycho

whatever

atleast then we're getting somewhere

but this is just you guys insulting me and me having to defend myself

get to the point please

lets hear your arguments

okay. so the nuance lies in the from covid of with covid. its important to take that into account because of the risk group

around 98% of people will barely notice it, or not even notice it at all if they have covid. that 2% are the people that are gonna have a bad time, or die

[foggy path]

why is covid the only disease where people use this argument?

[zinc matrix]

either with, or from covid

[fathom wadi]

you know what we need at a time like this? An actual scientist.

[zinc matrix]

it goes for other things as well @foggy path

[foggy path]

I've never heard of anyone usign that argument for anything else

[zinc matrix]

but its important when you put the world on hold and in full lockdowns etc

[mossy nexus]

Many people die from covid related issues like pneumonia as a secondary infection.

[zinc matrix]

many people that die from covid have a weak immune system

[mossy nexus]

The damage done to the heart, lungs and brain can be quite substantial

[zinc matrix]

old, or fat, basically

diabetes etc

they're the ones most at risk (also goes for a lot of other things btw)

these are the people that should be protected

until there is a proper way to treat it, or a proper vaccin

[foggy path]

how do you intend to protect diabetics when a large portion of people who have diabetes don't know they have it

[zinc matrix]

we should do all that we can to keep those people safe, but at the same time, let the rest of the people take care of the economy and make sure everything doesnt go to hell for the rest of the world

the rest of the 98%

yeah thats an issue @foggy path

diabetics in general is a big big issue

so here's the thing, one of the biggest influencers of covid infections is liver damage. Right now, 25% of the US population has non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. 80-100 million people has it right now. Nearly a billion people around the world has it too. 25% of nafld leats to nash, chronic inflammation of the liver akin to heavy alcohol abuse. that is 250m people worldwide. In case you are wondering, there is no cure for NASH. prevelancy of NASH in USA population is nearly 50%.

but not once, not ONCE, have I heard the government promote eating well

taking care of your body

taking care of stress

good mental health

these things are so important for your immune system

2.4 million deaths is one thing, but we do know that covid also leaves permanent scarring in lungs and heart

so even if you say 98% of the people will be OK, we actually have no idea of the long term effects

1 billion people suffers from NAFLD

[merry ermine]

Michelle Obama stole the vending machines from my high school, that is my proof that sometimes the government has promoted eating well

[zinc matrix]

250 million from NASH

but the same goes from the lockdown effects, and the psychological effect it has on people that live in constant fear now @zinc matrix

[fathom wadi]

@zinc matrix you didn't look then because I just googled it

[zinc matrix]

I think this is a much broader issue than just lung problems

that is potential 250 million of people that is going to live with complications for the rest of their lives

[foggy path]

The only reason I live in constant fear is because idiots who don't take this disease seriously...

:P

[zinc matrix]

I do take it seriously, so Im gonna assume you didnt mean me by that

[zinc matrix]

250 million people will not commit suicide

[foggy path]

yes I don't know about you that much

[zinc matrix]

but they can have VASTLY worse life experience for the rest of their natural lives

[cursive crypt]

huu... chat is under fire since some time 🍿

[merry ermine]

if we had a good quarantine in place at the start we still would not need lockdowns now. Quit crying about having to wear a mask, you are the people keeping this thing alive and thriving

[fathom wadi]

infiltraitors !

[zinc matrix]

dont have much time to explain myself either before I get the full tin foil hat attack from you guys

98% don't have "strong " immune systems

exactly @zinc matrix

most people have underlying health issues already

and its getting weaker by the day @zinc matrix

so thats why I said, there is a chance that these lockdowns are making matters worse in the long run

we could've ended this with 2 weeks lockdown, not the USA flavour of "my freedom" lockdowns, but proper lockdowns like japan, or south korea

[mossy nexus]

There is no natural immunity to C19 even in the healthiest of people

[zinc matrix]

at ANY POINT, we could've prevented 2.4 million deaths

[merry ermine]

the lockdowns are probably why a lot of people I know and love are still alive

[zinc matrix]

then what happens when people come in the country from aborad @zinc matrix

AT ANY POINT we could finish this, now

what happens with mutations?

abroad*

[mossy nexus]

Professor X takes them

[fathom wadi]

😄

[zinc matrix]

that's just what aboutism. stop travels, what, netherlands can't afford to stop travels from nigeria?

[zinc matrix]

nice, alive but unable to see them

well thats another thing @zinc matrix

[fathom wadi]

yeah technology doesnt exist to see them

[zinc matrix]

and thats another political issue there

[merry ermine]

I see them enough

[zinc matrix]

the EU wants us to take in refugees etc

so basically you have literally ignored the 250 million people at risk, and just focused on the people's immune system's getting weaker because lockdown

[fluid bloom]

https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/news/introducing-the-epic-games-store-spring-showcase-and-sale-coming-february-11

[zinc matrix]

see why I'm calling you a sociopath?

so the borders are closed, we arent allowed to go anywhere and people cant come in, except for refugees

[fluid bloom]

spring showcase in the middle of winter?

😄

[zinc matrix]

300-500 a week

[fluid bloom]

beginning of february is like peak winter

[foggy path]

Oh boy I was waiting to see if this would go into the whole refugees thing!

And it did!

[merry ermine]

ya Spring is like April right

[zinc matrix]

I see that youre calling me a sociopath, and I just think its insulting, you dont even take the time to properly talk to me about my arguments @zinc matrix

I might as well call you a sociopath too

but I dont judge people that quickly

[fathom wadi]

it's troll vs troll... the home game 😄

[zinc matrix]

I might misunderstand w hat youre saying

[merry ermine]

I do judge people quickly, lecomte sounds kidna sociopathic to me, he sus

[zinc matrix]

you think I'd be here discussing this if I was a sociopath?

[fathom wadi]

yes this is an unreal server

[zinc matrix]

if someone ignores my arguments and resort to what aboutism, I don't respond to their arguments

treat others as you want to be treated

yes and it was about covid before I got here @fathom wadi

just thought I'd chip in

[broken sigil]

I know 4 people who died from covid... So yeah

I'm keeping an eye on this convo so just keep it civil and without covid misinformations...

[fathom wadi]

ah

[zinc matrix]

you claim to be polite, but you ignore the key points left and right

have a nice convo about things

maybe share some views

learn from eachother

but guess thats not happening

you are not discussing at all

why not

[merry ermine]

ya I just hear a lot of brown noise coming out of him

[zinc matrix]

dude im right here

whats with you people talking to eachother about me

[foggy path]

yeah this is basically just spiraling into random directions and never really addressing any specific question

[fathom wadi]

its a tough convo to have. Especially after a year of being locked down. Everyone is tense.

[zinc matrix]

you are completely closed to any form of counter argument you see and expect people to wholly agree with your own points

yah I know, still good to talk about it though, its gotten so political @fathom wadi

its as if we're talking about trump here

[foggy path]

I just find the argumetn that "being alive but not being able to see them" is somehow worse than "being dead" lol

[merry ermine]

Trump made public safety political, if he had not we might have hundreds of thousands more people to chat with

[zinc matrix]

oh no I dont expect anything

[fathom wadi]

@foggy path depends if you liked them or not :p

[zinc matrix]

dont agree, but okay

[zinc matrix]

yeah haha

liking them plays a part

😄

[merry ermine]

I have seen my family, in small numbers, after confirming everyone is still healthy, and avoiding large public groups and anti-maskers extensively

[zinc matrix]

thats definitely your choice mate @merry ermine

[merry ermine]

like in New Zealand, if you follow the rules for a bit, turns out you can lower your guard once the probability has gone down dramatically

[fathom wadi]

my kids haven't been further than my backyard since March last year. My youngest doesn't even know other people exist.

[zinc matrix]

my grandparents havent seen anyone in months, yet they both tested positive

its tough man

[fathom wadi]

my gran did last week at 90 years old

[mossy nexus]

They don't, they are a figment of your imagination

[zinc matrix]

just saying theres a balance to things

[fathom wadi]

I wish, id get some work done :p

[zinc matrix]

you have to always keep seeing things in perspective, and not let fear base your judgements

[fluid bloom]

died or did?

[merry ermine]

unfortunately the probability peaked a little while ago, signs are its decreasing, now would be a good time to chill and wait for vaccine. Who wants to be the guy who died of COVID a couple months before herd immunity kicked in from widespread vaccine distribution

[fathom wadi]

@fluid bloom did. contracted covid even tho shes been in extreme lockdown for a year almost. Must have been the shopping deliveries

[zinc matrix]

thats my point @fathom wadi

[fathom wadi]

she will die when she tells death shes ready. Tougher than God

[fluid bloom]

oh right 😄

[mossy nexus]

Vaccination doesn't stop you from contracting it. It will however relieve the symptoms

[zinc matrix]

yup @mossy nexus

they arent sure for how long though

could be 3 months

also not enough data on people with weak immune systems

and not sure about possible mutations

so lots of gaps in the data there

and taking that into account, I think that at this stage, the vaccins are no proof of getting rid of lockdowns etc

and thats just based on common sence, going off the press conference

[foggy path]

wait and see what happens in Israel

[fathom wadi]

initially they stated that people with compromised immune systems were more likely to get it, but in time it showed they are only as likely as others, so it's not discriminating in that area. I was worried as hell about my thyroid putting me at higher risk but apparently not. However I can't get it if I don't move out of this damn seat right? 😄

[zinc matrix]

doesnt isreal have a third wave now? @foggy path

[foggy path]

they started massive vaccinations recently, they have enough for the entire population afaik

sold their medical data to Pfizer in exchange

[zinc matrix]

yeah but I heard they still had a third wave

not sure though

[fathom wadi]

the UK is going pretty quick with vaccines, just hope it keeps up

[foggy path]

yeah they've only started on it recently

[zinc matrix]

but they still have no data on that though @fathom wadi

because of the test group

[fathom wadi]

no data?

[zinc matrix]

or not enough data

not enough data to say for sure, I guess is what she meant

[merry ermine]

so are you anti-vax too or just anti-mask and anti-lockdown?

[zinc matrix]

im not anti vax

[mossy nexus]

Brexit. Anyone think this is a good thing here? Just curious.

[zinc matrix]

and I was for full lockdown in march last year

[broken sigil]

Vaccination started where I live and new cases are dropping hard every day, from almost 2k to 50

[zinc matrix]

because they told us the world was going to end

and we didnt know anything

[fathom wadi]

it did for a lot of people

still is

[zinc matrix]

thats good, deaths too? @broken sigil

cases are a vague number

[broken sigil]

Yeah, deaths and cases are dropping

[zinc matrix]

I think brexit is a good thing, but its gonna be tough for a while @mossy nexus

[merry ermine]

the lockdown put a big brake on the infection rate, in fact there is a lot of data showing that as places decided to open back up the infections spiked. They even track infection spikes to rallies and events from anti-mask enthusiasts like the motorcycle rally or a former president who need not be named

[foggy path]

Only good thing about Brexit is that others will see now that leaving EU is a stupid idea

:P

[fathom wadi]

this is true

[zinc matrix]

so is this a conservative vs liberal thing here?

[merry ermine]

no, it is a statistics vs 'wanhh I wanna play outside' argument

[zinc matrix]

I dont think thats the case @merry ermine

[foggy path]

only thing I care about in my political views is "what is the least evil/harmful to other people choice" and somehow that usually rules out many conservative opinions :P

[zinc matrix]

also many liberal options then @foggy path

[foggy path]

possibly, but so far I haven't noticed so much

[merry ermine]

making masks/science a political issue has led to so many deaths this past year

[zinc matrix]

political correctness etc @foggy path

[foggy path]

how is that evil or harmful?

[fathom wadi]

correctness being the perjorative

[zinc matrix]

that i very much agree with @merry ermine

[merry ermine]

maybe if we had an effective lockdown, not 90% complying and 10% whining about 'freedoms', we would already be back to business as usual because we could have got the numbers down to where contact tracing could be a thing

[zinc matrix]

whining about freedom is an amazing statement to me

as if freedom isnt worth anything to you

[merry ermine]

it is a word that is abused in many ways to justify doing whatever they want

[zinc matrix]

Ive heard many people talk that way about freedom

I feel like freedom is a 'you wont miss it until its gone' kinda thing

[merry ermine]

ya well I didn't miss my mom or grandma so much until they were gone either

[zinc matrix]

oh my, you mean like south korea or japan, or vietnam? or new zealand? get out of here with that logic.

china locked down, they are bad right? so lockdown bad

[proud pier]

Force Masks All-year round for the next few years.

[fathom wadi]

my town kept the tourist trade going for months before they locked down properly. Our rates were the highest at one point. When they took it seriously, it dropped like a stone. When they announced the vaccine, it spiked again, so they went to further lockdown strictness. The rates went down again. When New Years Eve hit, it spiked because people were dumb. Now it's going back down again. Lockdown works. It's stupid people that break the system. Plain facts.

[merry ermine]

ya Plort, places that followed statistics instead of simpletons

[fluid bloom]

@proud pier will you buy them for me? 🤔

[proud pier]

I have plenty of rewashables

[zinc matrix]

keepin it nice and sterile then @proud pier

[proud pier]

That Razer one, I'll probably get also

[fluid bloom]

😄

[proud pier]

I bet it'll cost me a cool $1000

[fluid bloom]

I actually wash my surgical masks too a few times before getting new ones

[proud pier]

Those RGB on my mask though

[fluid bloom]

boil them that is

[proud pier]

I'll be keeping safe form COVID in style

[fathom wadi]

I wear a thong mask so my farts dont infect people

[foggy path]

I just go to the store once a week or so, don't really need that many masks lol

[proud pier]

But seriously. Between vaccines, and proper precautions this year... I think we can get it under control

But the problem is, people will be stupid

[zinc matrix]

still wont get us out of lockdown though @proud pier

[merry ermine]

I agree with VictorBurgos, it may not be so far away that the numbers are safe enough to go back roughly to 'normal'

[proud pier]

I don't think we need to be out of lockdown this year

If anything, we should weather it for one more year just to be as safe as possible

[zinc matrix]

tell that to the restaurant owners and people losing their business

[proud pier]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[zinc matrix]

I think its very easy to say something like that when it doesnt quite affect you financially

[proud pier]

I buy lots of food from local business via DoorDash

[foggy path]

Vaccination research should be incentivized in general by just government support instead of relying on commercial interests to run it... imagine even half of the budget of the US military being put towards that

[zinc matrix]

what about restaurant owners? can we please think about restaurant owners?!

[proud pier]

Problem is, some business are stupid enough not to get onboard

[merry ermine]

Vaccines have gotten massive govt support

[proud pier]

The ones that can truly weather this storm, will be the ones that would have made it years and year later.

[zinc matrix]

yeah most wont make it

[proud pier]

The one that can't, well, they never had a chance to begin with in business.

[foggy path]

apparently the covid vaccines are still patented though and it's limiting the ability of other companies to produce it.... which shouldn't really be how it works

[merry ermine]

I think you can lift the lockdown once scientists say the new infection rates are plateau, if you are vaccinated go out, if not wait to vaccine

[zinc matrix]

thats not true @proud pier

they did

[proud pier]

Nah

[zinc matrix]

dude some businesses were booming, have been for 30 years

[proud pier]

You need to be able to adjust stuff in real time as a busness owner

Adapt and overcome

[zinc matrix]

not like this

if that happens its the market that makes that choice

not the gov

[proud pier]

Plenty of businesses have though

[zinc matrix]

yeah thats just lucky

[proud pier]

Ehh

No.

[zinc matrix]

what about barbers?

[proud pier]

Barbers... easy

They should have robotic cutters

[foggy path]

I went to the barber and everyone wore masks and it was fine ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[zinc matrix]

barbers are fully closed here

for months now

[proud pier]

Also, I go to my barber and they have appointments only

[zinc matrix]

what about barbers?! can somebody think about barbers?!

[merry ermine]

where are you lecomte?

[zinc matrix]

gonna be closed for months

[foggy path]

probably because idiots who don't wear masks

:P

[zinc matrix]

what about XXX?! can somebody think about XXX?!

[proud pier]

Your barbers just aren't smart enough to overcome this

[zinc matrix]

nope, barely any infections at barbers, maskes mandatory, doesnt matter to the gov @foggy path

[proud pier]

Seriously, there's nothing that any business can't continue on, if they just look at the requirements

[zinc matrix]

is this only about your group of people then?

other people dont matter?

[proud pier]

And practice universal precautions

[zinc matrix]

what about other people?! can somebody think of other people?! -from the guy that ignores other people 😄

[zinc matrix]

dude not if youre in full lockdown

[foggy path]

Universal basic income would have fixed this problem

[zinc matrix]

the restaurants and barbers did so many precautions

it didnt matter

the expert of talking past the people says think about other people

still closed it all down

thats rich

[foggy path]

It wouldn't be such a big deal if a business would have to close for a while if universal basic income was a thing

[proud pier]

Look

[zinc matrix]

I dont think of other people? really?

what do you think this whole convo has been about?

me thinking about me?

[broken sigil]

This is a question of general safety, individual people and businesses is not what matters here, sad but true

[proud pier]

If I were a barber in full lockdown... I would have built some freaking Drone with a suite of clippers

[merry ermine]

I do not think he really has an argument other than lockdown bad

[proud pier]

And had an online appointment system

[zinc matrix]

dude, you don't want lockdowns, you think 2.4m people died because of diseases

I think you really think about only you

[zinc matrix]

and you still wouldnt be allowed to open

[proud pier]

That shit would be in full auto-mode

Of course I could

[zinc matrix]

nope

[proud pier]

I am not doing anything, my legion of robotic barber drones are

[zinc matrix]

I literally don't see how we can be more clear about this

[merry ermine]

government promotes public policy for common health and safety, some people hate that when it gets in the way of them polluting or shooting or doing whatever they feel like

[proud pier]

Also, I am going to patent this idea

[zinc matrix]

yeah nice, tell that to the gov @proud pier

[proud pier]

Shit, if WB Interactive can, I sure as hell can

[zinc matrix]

if your gov approaches this on a case by case basis, more power to them

our gov doesnt

[foggy path]

it's not a barber shop if it's a robot barber so obviously it wouldn't fall under the same bureocractic umbrella lol

[proud pier]

^

Lots of loopholes

[merry ermine]

I think the conversation started as if people cooperated for 2 weeks the virus would have been over, we will never know in the US because not everyone cooperated and probably never would

[proud pier]

2 weeks?

[zinc matrix]

but thats just it

[proud pier]

It takes more than 2 weeks for the damn thing to leave your body

[zinc matrix]

expecting everyone to do exactly as theyre told is not realistic

even if that would work

[proud pier]

Almost 2 weeks to even see symptoms

[zinc matrix]

and theres only one thing that has to go wrong

[proud pier]

Nah, it's way too late for any short-term shit anyway

[zinc matrix]

one person flying in from italy, back from holidays, or whatever

and you can start all over again

[foggy path]

how's New Zealand doing lately anyway?

[proud pier]

That would have been back in Feb/March 2020

[zinc matrix]

the idea is, 2 weeks of no infection will make it clear who should quarantine and who are the at risk

that is exactly what south korea did

and it worked

[merry ermine]

ya, realistically at this point it is unlikely to work, south korea and new zealand benefited from very small numbers to trace at first

[zinc matrix]

this isn't some mad science fiction theory

it worked

[proud pier]

Worked so well that they are back up?

[zinc matrix]

my point @proud pier

if you look at the economics lockdowns cost less than not locking down

[proud pier]

Your point is flawed

There is no longer a shortterm solution

[zinc matrix]

that was my point

[zinc matrix]

back up with GOSH 393 CASES

OH MY GOD

can I have that?

[merry ermine]

to be fair 393 cases is pretty small and probably related to international travel

[zinc matrix]

can I swap 100k daily for 393

can I?

can I?

[proud pier]

we only have 300K, no fire here, move along

[zinc matrix]

how much are th ey testing

[broken sigil]

Don't spam

[proud pier]

The holidays were terrible for everyone, because everyone was fucking stupid and visited family

[zinc matrix]

sorry, I was too excited

[foggy path]

we have like 300 a day here and I'm pretty sure South Korea has like 10x the population... so that's pretty good :P

[zinc matrix]

and you dont even have an extreme lockdown @foggy path

[foggy path]

it's because people wear masks and follow government recommendations

[zinc matrix]

everyone?

[foggy path]

majority do yes

[zinc matrix]

where are you from btw

[foggy path]

Finland

[zinc matrix]

majority does here too

[proud pier]

You'll never ever have 100% cooperation, that's so unrealistic

[zinc matrix]

doesnt the majority follow it everywhere?

[proud pier]

Those guys, well... Natural Selection has its ways

[zinc matrix]

few house parties here and there

[foggy path]

It's also important to keep in mind that Finland is much more sparsely populated so in general the spread is more controlled as a result of that

[zinc matrix]

also that yes

but thats why I said, nuance

[merry ermine]

the majority are following the rules, the small number of jokers are keeping the virus spreading

[zinc matrix]

you cant just compare numbers like that

lots of factors at play

[merry ermine]

yes we can, its called statistics

[foggy path]

Well you kind of can. With all those factors that we mentioned South Korea with 10x the population and with a much denser population are reaching the numbers that we have

[zinc matrix]

statistics can be very skewed

[foggy path]

So whatever they're doing must be the right thing

[zinc matrix]

and not tell the full picture

[merry ermine]

you can control for different population sizes, different distributions, different source infection rates, etc

[zinc matrix]

lots of factors at play here, like.... say.... people adhering to lockdowns?

no, not lockdowns, because they don't work right

[proud pier]

IMHO, we (the USA), are in it for a good long while longer. $$$ is power, and $$$ runs the world. So, we'll never fully close our borders (both national and state), to stop this in its tracks

[zinc matrix]

maybe yes, but also how many people get tested, for example

[merry ermine]

they even have equations for how the flu spreads that you can apply to this

[zinc matrix]

and they don't work because you say so

😄

dude stop attacking me personally @zinc matrix

[merry ermine]

as a joke early in the pandemic (i was stupid) I wrote the equation for flu spread on a whiteboard at work