lounge

[bleak remnant]

first thing I see

[noble plaza]

It's nice for sure, the problem with C++ for me is that it feels like it contains 6 languages competing for your attention.

Yeah that looks pretty nice to me. Maybe a superfluous = but eh

Must have dropped a leading 1 then, because C++ goes up in complexity, not down

[broken sigil]

trailing return type is already a thing

auto SomeFunction() -> int32
{
  return 0;
}

This is valid C++

[bleak remnant]

difference between valid & people actually do that dumb shit

[broken sigil]

not dumb, that's how you specify lambda's return type

[fleet tangle]

You have to put the auto bit there, though.

[bleak remnant]

why are you using a lambda for a return type of a function

[broken sigil]

yeah^

[broken sigil]

what

[bleak remnant]

nvm

[fleet tangle]

pitfall-free-by-default hah

That's a bold statement.

Toward correct-by-default, efficient-by-default, and pitfall-free-by-default variable declarations, using “AAA style”

I think he means valid-by-default. Not necessarily correct!

[quiet grove]

Please don't tell me that verse is named after metaverse

[terse wasp]

It 100% is

[broken sigil]

yes 🥲

[quiet grove]

Not like verse as in a line in a song or a poem?

[noble plaza]

MetaSounds 🤔

[terse wasp]

Nope. 100% like Metaverse

Tim has been chasing the Metaverse for quite some time now

[fleet tangle]

As long as he's not chasing the dragon along the way.

[terse wasp]

But who knows - maybe this whole metaverse thing can give birth to a new sweet programming language.

[fleet tangle]

Need to unify all the different meta languages into one - the UniVerse.

[noble plaza]

Introducing: the ProgLang Cinematic Universe

BTW this page will eventually have the talk the slides were for, which should be more digestible
https://skillsmatter.com/conferences/13688-haskell-exchange-2022-online#skillscasts

[quiet grove]

I wonder what metaverse means
Given that two companies can't even agree on a definition of "game"

[fleet tangle]

Haskell conference, brought to you by MC Programmer.

[bleak remnant]

minecraft

[noble plaza]

Imagine Elden Ring bosses in a Mario game.

Or the Switch trying to load a single Nanite mesh.

[regal pecan]

You'd need a meta-metaverse that serves as the common denominator for all metaverse products.

[noble plaza]

Then you have 10 of those, which one meta-meta-metaverse will aim to unify...

https://xkcd.com/927/

xkcd: Standards

Fortunately, the charging one has been solved now that we've all standardized on mini-USB. Or is it micro-USB? Shit.

[regal pecan]

Usually the corporate motivation to create a standard is to centralize the entire pipeline around themselves. E.g. XSI and .fbx

[quiet grove]

I'm waiting for the hyperverse. It's like the metaverse 2.0

[quiet grove]

anyone know what this means? do they talk about "effects system" anywhere else?

[terse wasp]

#lounge message

[quiet grove]

err what UClass* confusion? sorry

[terse wasp]

My understanding was... and I'll just let Laura explain. She'll do better 😅

[fleet tangle]

So the reflection issue

There's always rtti.

Leaves

That definitely sounds like beginner c++ issues.

This is why I was saying any scripting language you want to work for mainstream stuff needs to be simple.

Unlike this.

[unreal ether]

That syntax is hard to read ngl

[fleet tangle]

Plus the fact that x=7 gets evaluated before the (x=0) part.

[terse wasp]

int x;
int y;
if (x == 0)
{
    y = 1;
}
else
{
    y = 2;
}
x = 7;

[fleet tangle]

If it didn't, then it would be undefined.

I could accept that if the syntax was different.

E.g. y = x == 0 ? 1 : 2; or so

You can lazily evaluate that all you like.

[regal pecan]

x=5; x=7;

[fleet tangle]

Compile error.

[terse wasp]

x = 5 | 7

[regal pecan]

(5,7) ?

[fleet tangle]

Still in the end, even if it's just a set of rules, x has to be resolved before y can be resolved. And "set of rules" is a lot harder for people to grasp than "do x".

And how many people play board games more complex than "game of life" or "monopoly" ?

And most of them don't know or follow the rules for monpoly properly.

[terse wasp]

I'll throw down in some Risk

[fleet tangle]

I know, I play them too.

But even so most people don't.

I put the level of interest/intelligence of entry-level fortnite modding way below the entry level for boardgames more complex than snap.

Indeed

And just adds different problems.

For the programmer too. And the user. And the maintainer.

[regal pecan]

at exec lines?

[broken sigil]

We will very soon see what the general public thinks and I have a strong feeling the majority won't like it
Especially existing UE devs

[fleet tangle]

@deme: connecting up the white lines in bps

It can tell you that your logic is wrong, but not your ideas. You can still make complex and decidedly wrong logic.

Much like in an imperative compile can tell you that the operations you're performing are right, but not that htey will accomplish what you expect them to.

[regal pecan]

(I thought "these" were the exec lines, not the problems, maybe I need declarative reading comprehension)

[fleet tangle]

I think it's much easier for people to write logically sound, but conflicting ideologically, code, than it is for them to misunderstand what a series of imperative commands will do. Syntax and language aside.

[bleak remnant]

Is the intended way to make plugins to make classes in a project then just export them to a folder

Or is there some simpler way

[broken sigil]

I usually make a new project, make a new plugin and just from the start add stuff to the plugin
That's the simplest way

[bleak remnant]

How do I "create" a plugin

Is there some sort of tool

[broken sigil]

either manually creating the build and module files or in editor find the plugins page and somewhere on there is a button to create a new plugin

[bleak remnant]

Alright

[bleak remnant]

I created a plugin and it shows in the C++ classes but nothing pops up in the actual plugins, do I need to have it in the Public Folder or something?

here's the hierarchy

[broken sigil]

Created it through the editor?

[bleak remnant]

created the plugin through the editor, created the class through the ide

forgot to send this image

[broken sigil]

that's for the content, like actual assets
You need to enable the C++ class filter or whatever it's called
But if I were you I would ignore it completely
If your plugin shows up in the plugins list in the editor it's working

[bleak remnant]

thanks

[celest musk]

iirc there's a separate checkbox to show plugins in the content browser

[pearl elk]

lets not try to justify this poor code example by writing it in C-type lol

be honest, who would actually write this code in C++ this way?

[terse wasp]

I was simply expanding it

Obviously you wouldn't do it this way in C++ because C++ is not Verse

[pearl elk]

oh I know, Im taking a dig at Verse 🙂

we'd write a conditional expression right

x = (y < 10) ? 30 : 40;

we'd do it this way so we dont initialise Y until its actually needed which can be done inline

int x; int y = (x == 0) ? 1 : 2; x=7;

could even do better if you want modular code you can reuse but the example is extremely simplistic

I never really sat down and said to myself, math expressions need a rethink, if anything its one if not the best thing in C++

[broken sigil]

^

Intuitive and it works

[deep copper]

why did they think not doing it the standard way it's been done before for ue was good at all?

this would just mean everyone will have to learn another language the hard way

[broken sigil]

Because it is being developed by Haskell devs 🥲

[deep copper]

wait haskell devs?!

for real?

[pearl elk]

Im curious about the way types work in Verse, it could be interesting but I doubt it'll allow the sorts of data smashing I enjoy in typeless environments. Results can be unpredictable but they tend to be reproducible

[broken sigil]

I wish I was joking

[deep copper]

i recall dieter was saying he liked strict types and validation etc... i wonder if they took a similar feedback

[pearl elk]

not just Haskell it has things in common with VB/Pascal too

I know Tim likes to use Turbo Pascal as an example alot

[deep copper]

well i guess it gives those devs a new job post open now

[pearl elk]

type declaration after variable name

but that causes problem with inline expressions

[broken sigil]

Everything I've seen about Verse so far I heavily dislike, except the type system, that's a bit interesting

[pearl elk]

Its also extremely annoying to switch between that type of coding and stricter c-type. I did it at TAFE, we did VB in one class and Java in another, its a pain in the butt to be constantly typing back to front because youre in the other language zone

[burnt juniper]

and Haskell creator is in the team

But it's going to be something entirely new imho

[broken sigil]

We saw some slides today

[regal pecan]

What type system.
And yes I saw the slides.

[broken sigil]

Sec, let me scroll up for 3 minutes to find it 😅

[regal pecan]

i.e. If types are just functions that return true or throw a compile error...

[burnt juniper]

This slide is so nuts

[regal pecan]

how do you know what comes out?

[pearl elk]

Innovative new type system jazz hands

theyre definitely going to have to work on these slides if they want this to be a first programming language. Using the lambda sign will send people for the hills

[burnt juniper]

This was made for a functional programming conference

[broken sigil]

Nvm after scrolling someone already posted the slide 🥲

[pearl elk]

makes complete sense, thats why its written like we are all Stephen Hawking

[burnt juniper]

I mean, making types behave as predicates, sets, and conditions, making them composable - this is going to turn the world upside down

[broken sigil]

Still don't think a language like Verse, at least what they showed is a good idea as a scripting language

I'm fully convinced a large majority will dislike it

[pearl elk]

languages are tricky, its a very personal thing and like I said politics has alot to do with it more so than the technical merits of the language

quite literally wars have been fought where people take sides based on their language of choice

I think mathematicians and scientists in general get caught up in the fantasy of it all, its like when you see Michio Kaku talk, he's fully into it and loves what he does but kinda forgets about the little things back on Earth

[burnt juniper]

It now has everything:

• a team of gods from programming language research field. They even got Ranjit Jhala, who worked on refinement types!
• a support from a huge company
• an ability to inject it into industry

[pearl elk]

tbh Ive been a programmer for like 30+ years and I didnt know who any of them were, I dont doubt their credentials though but for many of us its fluff.

not even sure I can tell you who invented the languages I use most lol

[burnt juniper]

I kind of expect, though, that it may be too much - it throws everything at once, while other languages usually come with one feature
But maybe these features don't work as good separately

[pearl elk]

Im just a very practical person so I need to see better examples before I can really comment, Ive seen white papers where people explained sociology issues while using nuclear physics terminology

[fleet tangle]

Like nuclear family!?

😛

[pearl elk]

Yeah I couldnt work out if they were serious or if it was just a high level prank

[deep copper]

can you mention all the new features? so far i got strict type checking and treating them as functions is one. the other features seem a bit confusing from what i heard here

[burnt juniper]

Indeterminism support/choices, it's correllation with types, ability to convert them to arrays and back, logic programming, inverse functions. I'm also not sure if it's correct to say, but refinement typing as well, which is freaking amazing

[deep copper]

i see i see 🤔 , that is quite a lot of stuff at once yeah

[quiet grove]

For Verse, do they call it "binding" rather than "assignment" because that's some kind of Haskell thing?

[burnt juniper]

Just because "x = 3" doesn't mean "put 3 into x", it just means "x equals 3"

[regal pecan]

outside of a "conditional scrutinee" (did they make up this terminology specifically for functional programming?)

[quiet grove]

i think i get it. it seems more like a philosophical point that you can ignore but ok

[pearl elk]

The idea as I understand it is to make it more like mathematics in general

[deep copper]

i see, quite cool in some ways, maybe someone has use for it

[pearl elk]

Tim said he didnt like how = works for assignment because thats not how it works in mathematics

[deep copper]

thought devs would have a tough learning curve

[quiet grove]

next they're going to want us to use variables like 𝜆 and ∃

[pearl elk]

we already use delta and alpha, was bound to happen lol

I just wanna see how good Verse supports complex set theory

[fleet tangle]

I just wanna see what fortnite mod requires complex set theory.

[quiet grove]

i just wanna see how good Verse supports making video games

If people want set theory they can use Haskell :C

[pearl elk]

yeah well, I think Unreal Engine might be the hurdle there not the language lol

cmon you cant tell me you think UEs complexity will suddenly go away with a new language

[quiet grove]

Idk, adding a really complex language onto an already complex engine, surely the two cancel out?

[pearl elk]

Im going with the Verse interpretation... True lol

[quiet grove]

Verse doesn't have boolean sorry

[fleet tangle]

Bools are a lie

[pearl elk]

awww Im a failure... I didnt try

[deep copper]

i mentioned this to someone else and they said "yeah that's functional programming. have fun with that. in Erlang, if x is unassigned, x = 3 assigns the value 3 into x but afterwards, x = 3 returns true instead. in fact, you could also do 3 = x to do the prior assignment"

[quiet grove]

3 = x does what?

[pearl elk]

same as|| x=3||

[fleet tangle]

It's setting up an equality, not assigning the value.

[pearl elk]

what does 3++ do

[regal pecan]

guess that means there will be no erlang++

[deep copper]

assigns the value, as per what they said xD

[deep copper]

so it doesn't assigns value?

[pearl elk]

I doubt you can reassign 3

[regal pecan]

It probably does assign the value, but they want you to think of it as excluding all other values as impossible

[deep copper]

it probably just assigns x in that case and calls it a day

[pearl elk]

3=20; 20=20+3-3*3/20;

[deep copper]

i wish i knew erlang to actually run this, i am curious what happens

probably an error

[regal pecan]

sounds like verge would false? out

[pearl elk]

its legit math aye, you can make anything a variable name right 😛

[fleet tangle]

3++ would probalby evaluate to a function return 3+1

[quasi mantle]

I think I still need to at least saving up for better equipment, I won't hold my breath for getting a paid-for equipment that's more up to snuff for overseas remote work

[pearl elk]

but why not 5, theres two +. So 3+++++=8

[fleet tangle]

(3+1)+1, ((3+1)+1)+1, etc

3+++++=8 would return... true? 😛

[broken sigil]

Can't believe some people went like "I wonder what programming needs, ah yes, more math obviously!"

[pearl elk]

just wait till they unveil the next version of verse, theyre removing the multiplication sign to bring it inline with mathematical equations

[broken sigil]

I sure ain't doing programming as my job for the math involved lol

[fleet tangle]

Especially redundant set theory

[quiet grove]

I'm still trying to get my head around x = 5; says "I am setting up the equality in that x is equal to 5, for all future uses of x, it is equal to 5"
and if (x = 5) ... says "if x is equal to 5, then do this thing"

Is there some maths-y way that this makes sense? Is it some Haskell thing?

[pearl elk]

generate me a set of 100 different skins 😉

[quasi mantle]

Though at least smaller startup have lower chance to give a shit about job gap.

[fleet tangle]

You're creating a "rule" that x is equal to 5. if (x = 5) matches that rule, your conditional returns true

The key point is that rules can be defined in any order and it doesn't matter until you actually try to evaluate them what they actually do.

[pearl elk]

way I think of it is == is now = and = is now :=

[terse wasp]

I agree with siliex about Verse: #cpp message

[broken sigil]

The thing I hate is that you can give it value later after the if statement and it works, I hate that the order in this case doesn't matter, how does that make logical sense

It's much easier to wrap your head around linear execution

[fleet tangle]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/221796616653373441/1051699110794772541/image.png So this becomes valid because you aren't using y until after x is defined.

[quiet grove]

except it's not:

x:int;
x = 5;

[pearl elk]

thats not an assignment though

more like a pointer

[quiet grove]

x := 5 is assignment?

[fleet tangle]

It absolutely is. And even in the board game example Laura put forward, they don't define rules in any which way, they do it in a logical structure.

That's why that code example is stupid

[regal pecan]

Most board games are typically a control flow with fluff, aren't they?

[pearl elk]

tbh I dont really know, maybe := is only used where type and init happens on the same line

[fleet tangle]

Indeed.

[regal pecan]

They said in a slide that x := 5 is identical to x: int; x = 5;

[deep copper]

i guess that's also like math, you write it anywhere and that's what the value is or something

[fleet tangle]

But you don't define what happens on square 52 when you're the red meeple with 6 cabbages and a carrot before you've defined what the turn structure is.

[pearl elk]

why do we need full ints, we only need enough numbers to count dice faces and cards

[red pewter]

Just look at skookumscript

[broken sigil]

Yeah it's heavily inspired by math stuff

[deep copper]

but why in ue?

who uses math there?

that much?

[fleet tangle]

Probably because it will be easy to write gameplay code with functions

[quiet grove]

I hate math, it's why I became a programmer.

[deep copper]

if it was some scientific language , it makes more sense

[deep copper]

oh okay

[fleet tangle]

You're not meant to be doing low level stuff with it. It's for scripting.

[pearl elk]

funny thing is most programmers are good at language more so than mathematics

[broken sigil]

C style language would be a much better fit than what verse seems to be

[quasi mantle]

I'm bad at math, even getting low grade for math at high school

[terse wasp]

AngelScript it is!

[pearl elk]

because we have to pick up new languages all the time, pretty rare to write in the language of the gods your entire life

[quasi mantle]

never get that past 70/100 score lol

[celest musk]

after all, the people discussing it here will only use it as a prototype tool 😄

[red pewter]

This is more about logic than equations

[terse wasp]

If it is effective - you'll see me be a champion of Verse

[fleet tangle]

Prototype in Verse before putting it into the real language: Haskell.

[pearl elk]

I might actually have to play Fortnite 😱

[broken sigil]

If I'm being honest I probably won't touch it after the first day it comes out

[red pewter]

It's necessary to have their lazy evaluation stuff etc from what I assume

[terse wasp]

BM actually likes C++ though - sooooo

[quasi mantle]

Fortnite BR is fun, specifically the no build mode

[celest musk]

i often want to test things but then doing it in BP might take longer than recompiling c++ and restarting the editor a bunch of time

so that's where verse could come in handy

[deep copper]

i guess it will just be another language option in ue, and be used by very few until more use cases pop up

[broken sigil]

That's why I'm more excited for stuff like cpp2 😅

[terse wasp]

Isn't that still like...an eon away?

[broken sigil]

Yes 🥲

[red pewter]

Use case: not being as awful to manage as BP or as tedious as cpp

It's a game changer

[fleet tangle]

It's a game maker!

[pearl elk]

Its a game creator

[broken sigil]

The community is gonna be super divided on this

[regal pecan]

Depending on how it's released, most of the community may ignore it.

[red pewter]

That's fine, there are 10 other script bindings nobody uses

[terse wasp]

Day 1 #verse channel @broken sigil

[fleet tangle]

community = (like | hate)

[red pewter]

I don't care about weird syntax, I want an official scripting lang

[pearl elk]

Python for gameplay when

[regal pecan]

BP also proves that we will use something vile and rotten as long as the documentation works.

[red pewter]

I never want to diff a bp again

[broken sigil]

We are probably gonna have it (maybe not day 1)

[quiet grove]

I wonder how something like this might be used in making a custom game mode for Fortnite

[pearl elk]

Im just gonna wait for someone to port UE5.1 to Rust, kthx who ever you are

[red pewter]

That tweet already shows it being used to loop rounds in Fortnite

[red pewter]

Ah yes, something even more tedious to write gameplay code in lol

[pearl elk]

its the way of the world, simplicity is overrated

[red pewter]

It would be sweet for engine stuff

[quiet grove]

this? isn't this just a regular for loop, not "narrowing"?

[terse wasp]

Remember though - this talk was targeted at Haskell people, because it was at a Haskell conference. I'd imagine when they show it to the gamedev/Fortnite people, they'll have more practical examples for our domain.

[celest musk]

did they already show code examples? if so, what language is close to it's syntax?

[quiet grove]

fair enough

[quiet grove]

python, it's whitespace and :s

[celest musk]

ok i'll never use it then 😄

[terse wasp]

Can I just have my // for comments please 😢

[red pewter]

I like tabs mattering but I understand the hate

[quiet grove]

https://twitter.com/saji8k/status/1339709691564179464
i hope you like copy-pasting between different examples, some of which use tabs and some of which use spaces, and having to manually fix them because your editor doesn't know if they were using 2 spaces, or 4 spaces etc. etc.

Saji (@saji8k)

Looks like @EpicGames is bringing scripting to @UnrealEngine. They showed it off working with @FNCreate on today's livestream, so UE5 support is likely. It is a completely new programming language and it might be called Unreal Verse.

Likes

507

Retweets

103

Twitter · Dec 17, 2020, 11:10 PM

[red pewter]

Thanks

[celest musk]

no braces/brackets either

who thought that this would be a required feature...

[terse wasp]

Remember - Tim wants Verse to be bigger than UE.

[celest musk]

i don't know...

[broken sigil]

Yeah... We'll see about that

[quasi mantle]

Python says hi

[terse wasp]

We're thinkin' in the context of UE. Tim is thinkin' larger scale

[celest musk]

did he really say that?

[terse wasp]

Yes

He wants it to be the language for the metaverse

[celest musk]

then it's a long long road ahead...

[burnt juniper]

The first picture is an old example from 2 years ago, disregard it

[terse wasp]

Usable in any engine as well. Specifically highlighting being able to use it in Unity.

[burnt juniper]

In this tweet

[broken sigil]

I highly doubt Verse will see large scale adoption

[quiet grove]

the language for the thing that doesn't actually exist, neat

[celest musk]

but python is pretty popular, so it might be just a trap to attract python devs 😄

[quasi mantle]

Also .verse extenstion?
I'd prefer short 3 letter extensions

[fleet tangle]

Traps shoudl stay in anime! 😛

[burnt juniper]

I hope they make it indentation sensitive, though

[pearl elk]

repeat after me, make it bloaty then add friction

[broken sigil]

.vrs would be better

[terse wasp]

Arguable. Metaverse does already exist in Roblox/Second Life/Fortnite. It's the interopting of the separate metaverse's that doesn't exist.

[quasi mantle]

inb4 triggering IRL crossdressers

[quiet grove]

I thought interoperability was the whole point of the "metaverse" (if there is even a real definition)
Those 3 things are just large games. Second Life has been around since 2003, why does the metaverse only exist now?

[pearl elk]

As Vin Diesel said "its not about syntax, its about family"

[burnt juniper]

Though, type families will be obsolete/implicitly implied concept when functions are unified with types

[quasi mantle]

Is it Vin Diesel or corporate higher up before they dump you?

[deep copper]

ah, so it's not for ue, we already have cpp there

[terse wasp]

Beats me. I was just mentioning that side of the argument. Personally - I don't care about the metaverse. But if chasing it can bring a sweet new language, chase away rich folk. (I'm not saying Verse is sweet or anything like that, I care about practicality first. Won't know that until I actually use it)

[fleet tangle]

Second Life didn't go through the evolution required for the general public. It appealed to nerds and then passed into antiquity.

[pearl elk]

https://tenor.com/view/real-groot-i-am-groot-guardians-of-the-galaxy-gif-7317007

[pearl elk]

oh man the amount of times I went into a sandpit to find out it was bugged out and thats why it was empty

someone tested fireworks and they died and boy did that kill the FPS

but it was funny to find a hamster making something out of clear tubes or someone building the Enterprise up in the clouds. People would put up plywood boards to create stuff in private

[fleet tangle]

Best thing about Second Life was the troll guy.

[thick oracle]

I just think it's going to be really funny once all the CEOs making metaverses lose all their money because no one actually cares

[fleet tangle]

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/ralph-pootawn

[pearl elk]

unfortunately you quickly find out this is the main reason people want a metaverse lol

[cursive crypt]

So that's what troll means actually.

[fleet tangle]

To troll people having virtual sex?

Troll comes from 'patrol' apparently.

Where people would patrol the BBs looking for places to shit post.

[cursive crypt]

Para troll?

[pearl elk]

I bet if Gabes steam profile was public it'd be all anime virtual novels and gf sims lol

[fleet tangle]

I'm pretty he's rich and probably doesn't need 2d gfs

[quasi mantle]

Sounds like a cheap hotel watcher

[pearl elk]

remember to always check for 2 way mirrors in air bnb peoples

[cursive crypt]

Bah, I don't care if someone watches me.

[pearl elk]

as long as theyre quiet and dont derail lol

[cursive crypt]

Definitely, lol.

[fleet tangle]

It's when they fall out of the cupboard that it gets annoying.

[cursive crypt]

At least they should have decency enough to make it revenue share, say 50%.

[pearl elk]

just remember to wear your PH tshirt

[cursive crypt]

Actually, maybe. Put a copyrighted music or wear an apple logo. Leave it to the corps.

[pearl elk]

oh yes I love Cardi B, turn it up 😂

[fleet tangle]

Is there where somebody makes a WAP joke?

Though what you'd joke about Wireless Access Protocols, I don't know.

[frozen jewel]

Other Engines vs Unreal Engine (EA 2023 Trailer) Demo

[fleet tangle]

Left: BP. Right: Verse.

[cursive crypt]

I see the Verse hype is still running wild.

[pearl elk]

time to make Reverse a language closer to c-type that uses the Verse VM

[ivory grove]

I'm hoping the splash damage from Verse is contained. so many of these concepts aren't well suited for gameplay code as designers are accustomed to today.

[pearl elk]

just reading up on Gherkin Syntax

https://tenor.com/view/dude-ashton-kutcher-and-then-gif-5017028

[ivory grove]

They may be able to build visual systems on top to aid with syntax, but I have no idea how to approach teaching my design team SSA variable concepts.

[regal pecan]

Who would it have hurt to use an existing scripting language for the metaverse?

[burnt juniper]

Why not? It'll give an ability to write arbitary invariants while having controlled side effects via effects. It's going to get wild at first, yeah

[fleet tangle]

SSA?

[burnt juniper]

Which one?

[ivory grove]

Verse is able to gurantee a level of safety that is generall missing from most languages. My worry is it so "pure" merely thinking about it melts brains so we dont even get to building.

[fleet tangle]

mIRC script was great back in the day.

[regal pecan]

What kind of safety?

[frozen jewel]

@fleet tangle You have (1) new message from (unknown).

[ivory grove]

e.g. all "fail" clauses are required to be trapped/handled.

[fleet tangle]

What is tihs even from?

[ivory grove]

variables are bound to values. Not memory holding a value to be reassigned.

[frozen jewel]

It's a meme kids use nowdays.

[fleet tangle]

I meant more what does it stand for. 🙂

[fleet tangle]

I'm aware. But I'm just curious where it's from. The audio too.

[ivory grove]

single static assignment.

[fleet tangle]

Ah. Thanks!

[ivory grove]

I'm not using it strictly accurately tho. SSA has other semanitcs that does not hold for verse and its type system.

[frozen jewel]

Man of Steel movie

[pearl elk]

Met of Verse

[ivory grove]

I find that strict invarents are very nice to have for low level systems or once a game play feature is fully baked. I suspect during development it will lead to lots of ~~unintended ~~ unforeseen constraints hurting iteration, so then ppl will just write increasingly permissive constraints. No?

e.g. how much gameplay code is const correct?

[terse wasp]

It'll be interesting to see how Verse turns out for iteration. I imagine leaning on the hot reload stuff for Verse will be important for this.

[fleet tangle]

Ah. For some reason the video reminds me of team fortress 2.

[pearl elk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h42d0WHRSck

[fleet tangle]

I was thinking more of the spy

[burnt juniper]

But you can at least write constraints like that, which is a lot useful by itself. The other thing that you can generate values with them, with the same syntax as for constraints/type level computations. Unlike things like LiquidHaskell, where refinements are too separate

[fleet tangle]

To be fair, TF2 came out long after Unreal did.

[ivory grove]

yea i agree its nice language feature. Now how to explain all this designers with 10+ year of banging together BP? It misses the audiance IMO.

[fleet tangle]

The audience isn't BP users, though.

Or c++ programmers.

[pearl elk]

TF mod probably similar time to Unreals release

[fleet tangle]

It's fortnite players.

TF Mod maybe, but that's tf2 on source engine 😛

[pearl elk]

oh wait TF mod 1999, so a year off

[burnt juniper]

A function that takes only fire pokemons is simpler and more intuitive than a function that takes anything and throws an exception sometimes

[ivory grove]

I dont follow - even less sophisticated users? But time will tell...

[pearl elk]

whats source engine?

[fleet tangle]

Yes. It's designed to be used by the unwashed masses.

[ivory grove]

while you are iterating on a design you never have such a concrete notion. Again, we can't keep const correctness in gameplay code - a very simple constraint.

[pearl elk]

If Epic had been pushing this way steadily for a long time, we knew where they were going but we've not had any insight to the actual process

It kinda comes out of the blue for us on the outside, from a long history of c-type to oh heres haskell-type

[ivory grove]

I think verse was first shown 2019 dec(?) and it was just a bit of how it could be used to build FN game modes.

[terse wasp]

2020 - same year as Lumen and Nanite. In the UE in review talk. And it wasn't the actual focus of that talk.

[pearl elk]

Well the idea is an open sourced language so it seems odd to keep development so closed, its not like Im rushing to use it in production but it would be nice to be ready when it launches rather than being running to catch up because Epic decided to test it on Fortnite creative

[terse wasp]

All in all - Verse has been quite a secret throughout the years

[pearl elk]

Core issue I see with the design pillar no corpo controlled is by the time Epic are happy to release it we end up in a position where they control the narrative because "its too hard to go back now"

[fleet tangle]

I think the only appropriate response to this is: you mum?

[ivory grove]

Tim has been talking about some of the verse concepts from early 2000s

https://www.slideshare.net/mchaar/tim-popl

[fleet tangle]

Damn.

GoW had 250k lines of code?

[regal pecan]

is that all?

[ivory grove]

I think thats referencing gow1?

[fleet tangle]

Like I said.

[deep copper]

verse does seem like someone's dream without considering the people using it

but well if it's for the metaverse, not ue, it makes sense

[frozen jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/wtf-am-i-reading-what-am-i-reading-linus-tech-tips-linus-ltt-gif-25129292

[fleet tangle]

Like most software then 😂

[pearl elk]

Im actually shocked MS didnt screw with github

they just snuck in a clause about training their AI on all public repos lol

but artists are the ones in the headlines complaining

programmers be like "I pinched it from StackOverflow anyways"

[regal pecan]

Artists: "How dare you use my drawing of a piece of paper."
Programmers: "My drawing of a piece of paper is perfect. Why doesn't everyone else draw it this way?"

[bleak remnant]

Realistically since they are announcing stuff I'd imagine we are nearing some sort of public testing

[ivory grove]

I was surprised that a lot of artists see it as an "replacement of artists" vs scoped tools for certain tasks. e.g. Not sure any VFX artist enjoys roto scoping - it will be nice when ML systems get you 90% of the way there to start.

[terse wasp]

Yeah - next month, when Fortnite Creative 2.0 launches. It's always been known that it will release with Fortnite Creative 2.0

[bleak remnant]

Now it's double cringe

[pearl elk]

I was thinking of going back and doing some code for UT2007 lol

shame no one ever ported the game to the latest UDK

[fleet tangle]

Was that the udk one?

[bleak remnant]

Can't wait to see the YouTube videos when searching up verse

TOP 10 VERSE Fortnite MAPS

[fleet tangle]

"top 10 ways to hack in fortnite with verse mods"

[pearl elk]

when Verse has been out a year will it be an anniversery

[deep copper]

yup, and i can't imagine clients using those tools on their own to great success anyway

[fleet tangle]

If the release doesn't go well, you could call it an ad-verse reaction.

[terse wasp]

lol

[pearl elk]

Much of this stuff isnt a replacement for the existing but another tool in the box at your disposal. I guess the issue comes up when you have so many options and you arnt really directed to make things in the correct way, it requires leads to write all this documentation rather than the game engine having good standards for... your know, game creation

[burnt juniper]

Wow cool, since 2000! I've been experimenting with something similar (a language with types<->sets<->functions, indeterminism and inverse functions) since 2015 and was super hyped when a team of legends came up with the same combination of concepts (https://kvachev.com/blog/posts/we-need-simpler-types/). But I'm not as smart and I'm almost outside of academia. Anyway, I gave it a lot of thought and I think Verse is going to be awesome

[quasi mantle]

This is funny and scary at the same time
We do live in advertisement universe

[bleak remnant]

I could actually believe the lead developer literally gave that as a requirement

[fleet tangle]

adverse: preventing success or development; harmful; unfavourable.

[pearl elk]

You'd be surprised how many times people under my lead have complained when I outline engine limitations in documentation. Its always my fault

[quasi mantle]

ad-verse
advertisement universe

[pearl elk]

but but Mons, you can fix it, you do C++... youre a magical unicorn who farts code

[fleet tangle]

Yes. I see what you did there. It wasn't good. 😦

Notes the lack of drums

[quasi mantle]

trying not to annoy neighbor this time

[pearl elk]

https://tenor.com/view/muppet-show-muppets-animal-drums-drum-set-gif-25747173

[ivory grove]

Curious what was your intended use?

[quasi mantle]

Animal is GOAT muppet drummer

[fleet tangle]

Not hard to be the GOAT muppet drummer when there was only one muppet drummer.

[deep copper]

don't tell me this has these many syntaxs? i have a feeling this will turn out like js where every library uses a different standard and you need to learn weird ways for each thing

[pearl elk]

I dunno I think Tommy Lee is abit of a muppet

[quasi mantle]

What is this, aU passionately geeking about programming language instead of being a face hugger?

[regal pecan]

That's from the gears of war slides

[deep copper]

there's too many strangers here today, it's making me shy

[burnt juniper]

What use? That's too big task for one person, I shelved it for later when I perhaps will have resources to form a team. But seems like that I don't have to do this anymore 😂

As for the language concept and it's use case, it's general purpose

[ivory grove]

shrug one man shows are how they all start - D, Zig, Lua...

But yea, Verse has significant resources behind it. The paper authors are just the "PhDs" working on the design. There is another whole team working on implementation.

[pearl elk]

nows your chance to promote HugScript

I'd be curious to hear what Carmacks thoughts on Verse are

[ivory grove]

Unquestionably controversial statement, but what has he done of consequence in the last decade? No doubt great programmer, but nothing I saw as of late...

[deep copper]

HugScript will have no spaces so everything hugs each other

[pearl elk]

Well it has to do with comments he's made, he's made full games and scripting languages but also says he wishes he'd learnt more about mathematics. I think his opinion would really reflect something I could relate to on a personal level

[terse wasp]

Didn't he help Oculus quite a bit and now he's moved to general AI stuff. Maybe not stuff that is as influential as the work he did in gamedev....yet

[ivory grove]

I guess thats where my skepticism of Carmack's influence comes from. Meta has been just speed running setting money of fire. 🤷‍♂️

[terse wasp]

Pretty sure Carmack jumped shipped (from Occulus) before Facebook tried to pivot to Meta

Think he still serves a small role, but it isn't his focus really

[pearl elk]

I admire Carmacks business sense, when he was at ID he really lead the way and pushed products through. He's just very decisive, when he saw VR he just went after it

Id expect him to approach a programming language with a similar practicality, whether it really impacts the bottom line or if it'll inhibit progress through a learning curve

[regal pecan]

Oculus was promising before Facebook bought in, and Carmack leaving is only a credit to him.

[pearl elk]

Not to mention that Meta are very much about joining VR with the Metaverse

Im not sure he left, he's just a consultant now since he was still at Meta Connect 2022

but the way he talks about VR, its very practical without all the hype train. Very take it or leave it rather than jazz hands

[quiet grove]

I made a page trying to summarize some of the Verse stuff from a C++ standpoint, is any of this still really confusing/wrong?
https://benui.ca/unreal/what-is-verse/

[terse wasp]

👆 @sand oxide might want to proofread as well

[pearl elk]

https://tenor.com/view/no-ticket-no-ticket-tickets-harrison-ford-gif-15530609

[terse wasp]

The end of the slides were talking about mutable states - so we might be able to change variables. Just FYI. Not enough info at this time to be definitive though.

Might be some keyword that can change it or something

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[ivory grove]

My info is out of date so its likey just wrong speculation at best now. But the bound reference to value cannot change it is that values of the bound reference can.

[terse wasp]

Going to be honest - that 2nd statement reads weird to me 😅

[broken sigil]

Gameplay scripting would be real painful without this

[terse wasp]

I understand it - but it just reads weird lol

[pearl elk]

What if... you didnt have to do gameplay scripting 😮

just make a huge library of templates and you just select one then use AI to generate a skin based on megascans and voila, ship it

sits back in Bobby Koticks chair

[cursive crypt]

upcoming gen will just ask devGPT to write code for them

[regal pecan]

for{i:=1..Length(as); as[i]+1}
as:=(3,7,4)
as[0] // 3
as[2] // 7
as[7] // error
if (x:=as[i]) then x+1 else 0 // Returns 0 if i is out of range```

[cursive crypt]

I can see upcoming channel, #skooma

[pearl elk]

does anyone here have 20+ cores?

this was meant to happen in 2009

[celest musk]

i do, but not on one cpu 😭 (take the rhyme)

[ivory grove]

I have 128 logical threads. my dv pc is a 5950.

[pearl elk]

Mines a 5950X and has 16 cores 32 threads, no where near 80+

[celest musk]

like the awesome inventory it wrote 😄

which had more logical bugs than working code

[ivory grove]

sorry by 5950 i mean 3990x 😛

[pearl elk]

multicore hype was real in 2007

[cursive crypt]

#gpu-power now

It is even more multi

[burnt juniper]

Nice

[cursive crypt]

Even Meta gonna get gpu for their new ai centers

Everyone is making 🤔

[pearl elk]

inference jazz hands

[cursive crypt]

https://tenor.com/view/glitter-celebrate-fabulous-jazz-hands-gif-5596369

[pearl elk]

https://tenor.com/view/aerobics-80s-lets-get-physical-working-out-do-you-even-lift-bro-gif-16169938

artists formally known as the NFTs

[cursive crypt]

https://tenor.com/view/dance-sexy-dance-gif-12885230

[deep copper]

i kinda like verse after reading this, for a scientific usage or mathematical language this seems sort of brilliant in some ways

though I don't think old programmers or ue people would really appreciate it

it's kinda quirky

[pearl elk]

I never liked any programming language, especially when I was younger lol

[deep copper]

i don't think you would have had much choice back then

[pearl elk]

too much time working out how to do what I want to do instead of coding what I want to do

[celest musk]

you had a lot of choices actually

[deep copper]

and you probably didn't even have mych resources

[pearl elk]

I enjoyed the commandline back then too, these days whenever I see npm its like NOOOOO

[deep copper]

really? i can't think of any simple and fun language from back then

[celest musk]

you could pick between the plague and c(++)

[deep copper]

npm is real bulky too

[pearl elk]

Wordperfect 🫀

[celest musk]

most programming languages are quite old...

[deep copper]

i thought they wouldn't be developed much, so no libraries or easy features

[pearl elk]

Quake Army Knife was written in Python, I remember reading it thinking "I should learn Python"

[celest musk]

In 1978, Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie published the first edition of The C Programming Language.

Python was created by Guido van Rossum, and first released on February 20, 1991.

they could have waited till 1st of april for python

[deep copper]

python 2 was kinda not easy enough compared to python 3, i don't want to imagine python 1 being just indentation errors

i can't speak for C but i heard it takes quite a while to grasp it good

and older C shouldn't have a lot of docs

like, wouldn't you need books? C for dummies or something

[celest musk]

idk, i've started to learn c in 2000, so it might probably evolved a bunch until then

[pearl elk]

Books, what century is this!!

[deep copper]

ah, yeah by 2000 i imagine it would be decent maybe

but still, where did you learn from?

was stackoverflow running?

[pearl elk]

Sams Teach Yourself C in 24 hours

[celest musk]

school and google

[pearl elk]

read that and BOOM, C easy

[deep copper]

well as long as it worked out, maybe it wasn't so bad

[celest musk]

well, more trial and error, and forced to spent time on it in school 😄

[deep copper]

as i imagine

[deep copper]

school huh .. how was the teacher?

[celest musk]

we had some "slow" learners in school so they tend to gave us a lot of time to solve things, and eventually you got bored and started to make own things in the spare time

[deep copper]

C easy, see easy, see sharp, C # 😮

[pearl elk]

C blurry > C#

[deep copper]

i see, sounds like you need to be good at it to get more good at it 🤔

[cursive crypt]

C# Is Microsoft Java

[pearl elk]

you should learn JScript 🤣

[cursive crypt]

ecma

[pearl elk]

ActionScript ftw

[deep copper]

Typescript!

what about you mons? did you start earlier than 2000?

[pearl elk]

I started C when Quake was released before that QBasic

[celest musk]

yay, qbasic gang

[deep copper]

let me check the date

[pearl elk]

I kinda liked my pathway because things got increasing more complex as I went along. I did try to learn some langauges earlier but I couldnt always grasp the concepts, C++ was out of my league in the late 90s when I first tried. I could read it but writing code is so much harder when youre starting out, most of what I did was essentially tracing, just copying other peoples code and modifying it

[deep copper]

22 June 1996 for quake release date

[deep copper]

ah, so you developed alongside it sort of

[pearl elk]

yeah I think I was 14 but started messing about with hexidecimal when I was 10, I'd memory hack RPGs with a trainer which was alot more manual back then

[deep copper]

so your exposure started earlier,

[pearl elk]

I screw up with Darklands one time, I made an old Wizard and he died of old age just as I started the game, was hilarious though

[deep copper]

hmm, so you developed interest first, not suddenly landed into it

[deep copper]

lol wth

[pearl elk]

programming was always secondary to my love for fiddling with video games

[deep copper]

sounds like mako's modding -> dev story

[pearl elk]

if I could make games without ever touching another line of code Id totally do it, just focus on the systems and design

[deep copper]

but hey you needed a use case for it

[celest musk]

best i did was edit save games when it comes to cheating 😄

which i still do today for some games, specially if they involve money grinding with no content for it

[deep copper]

that is quite a useful cheat tbh xD

[deep copper]

yeah .. it removes the shallowness

[celest musk]

for me it kinda was qbasic and batch, then i got into html/css, later JS which brought me back to some programming....

then i was forced to learn c in school, but dropped out at some point and did mainly php/html/css/js stuff

and eventually started some own project, which i, for whatever reason, picked c for

[pearl elk]

We had this electronics software at school in the mid-90s which was like a flow graph, you would wire switches to fans or motors, all sorts of things for testing circuitry

[celest musk]

probably because it was a slow cpu and i had to crosscompile, so c/c++ was the best bet

[celest musk]

we had that, too. electronics workbench or smth like that

which is now apparently named multisim

[deep copper]

ngl web stuff is quite tempting because it's all fast to do

[deep copper]

not a bad choice considering how things are now

[pearl elk]

yeah that sounds right, plain name is probably why I forgot it

[celest musk]

http://domoticx.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/EWB-screen-01.png

[pearl elk]

I remember the first time I saw autocad in tech studies area of school too, I was amazed

[deep copper]

is that like, logic wiring stuff or something?

[celest musk]

both

logic and analogue circuit design

[pearl elk]

pretty sure you can run simulations in it

[celest musk]

yea you can

[pearl elk]

ahh yeah pause button up top, just like BP 😛

[broken sigil]

Oh I remember using that in highschool

[deep copper]

that looks quite practical

[deep copper]

some tools really are mind blowing

[celest musk]

well, after all it's just math

i always hated calculating circuits, specially since software for it exists 😄

why would i even want to know how to calculate it if a computer can do it 1000000000x faster than me anyways

[deep copper]

was it useful in any way to you in life?

[pearl elk]

oh cmon you need to know how many electrons are flowing past a point on the circuit 😛

[celest musk]

yes

it helps to understand why something is doesn't work the way you want it 😄

[pearl elk]

understanding how chips work is pretty important Id say

[celest musk]

so after all it's a quite useful skill if you have to deal with stuff like that

[deep copper]

well atleast something was gained from it, all good!

[celest musk]

yea but those lessons made clear for me that i'm not going into electronics 😄

[pearl elk]

I couldnt imagine trying to become a programmer with no knowledge of how memory or cpus are architectured

[deep copper]

the fundamentals

[celest musk]

also my electronics teacher was kind of that guy which could be a trainer in the military 😄

https://tenor.com/view/exercito-us-army-yes-yes-yes-yes-sir-soldier-gif-14572412

[pearl elk]

I spent most my time in the library reading theoretical physics books when I did electronics engineering lol

[proud jay]

This dude legit presenting in comic sans https://twitter.com/pmylund/status/1601305994851909632?s=46&t=LLKlbEgs-Oh_bNuERsB7MQ

Patrick 🦦 (@pmylund)

Extremely excited to write programs in Verse https://t.co/KvZZZwkEo5

Likes

335

Twitter · Dec 9, 2022, 8:01 PM

[broken sigil]

I quite enjoyed my classes on electronics and digital circuits (logic gates, integrated circuits, memory, CPUs, etc...)

[celest musk]

@sand oxide is this your husband?

yea i liked logic classes, too. was another teacher tho

and i was kind of able to grasp it

[pearl elk]

but but how to logic with no booleans 😦

[deep copper]

yikes 😭

[broken sigil]

🥲

[deep copper]

well that's also useful for what you do now

[celest musk]

bools are just logic states

[proud jay]

can I just say, Verse is ugly

[pearl elk]

I had some awesome books I got from Dick Smith here back when it was more about DIY electronics that explained logic and all that perfectly. It was even all written on graph paper which made it feel right

[broken sigil]

Ah so I'm not the only weirdo that reads stuff about quantum mechanics, space, time, etc... When I'm bored lol

[proud jay]

it's nice to read but at a certain point my brain just starts melting

[broken sigil]

The more I read about it the more I'm convinced we live in a simulation lol

[pearl elk]

I like to call it research for scifi projects

I was terrible at wagging school, Id leave to go to the proper library because the schools one sucked lol

[proud jay]

like that stephen hawking book I was following along with general relativity and all that, but then it goes into quantum mechanics and I'm like ok, but then it gets in details and it just sounds like gibberish

interesting though

[deep copper]

read another book related to it and it might make sense

[pearl elk]

The Great Equations is a really good one, its written like a story rather than just proofs. I wish more books were like that, it makes the subject more intriguing

[broken sigil]

Anyways I'm off to bed, pretty sure my body is already asleep, sitting over here with the heart rate at 56 😅 💤

[pearl elk]

woo my Starlink has shipped

https://tenor.com/view/austin-powers-dr-evil-mike-myers-come-join-us-come-here-gif-4627161

[deep copper]

what's a starlink?

[pearl elk]

its a "laser"

[proud jay]

it's an expensive internet satelite

[deep copper]

https://tenor.com/view/fat-cat-laser-eyes-angry-cat-cyclops-nara-gif-26030753

[cursive crypt]

Send pics or it didnt happen

[pearl elk]

oh I can send pics once it gets here, should be before the 25th

[cursive crypt]

Nice, would be interesting to hear a review

[pearl elk]

Im just hoping the dog doesnt piss on it where I want to put it temporarily to test it lol

[cursive crypt]

Shouldn't this improve the conductivity?

[pearl elk]

all the cat pics suddenly turn to dog pics

[cursive crypt]

Yellow filter on YT videos

[pearl elk]

its weather proof so Im sure it'll be fine, just be a funky smell at Starlink if I send it back lol

[cursive crypt]

So, it is kinda of modem? Is it big? Power consumption?

[pearl elk]

Im hoping it solves my latency issue, power consumption is probably inline with Satellite NBN which we already have. If the Starlink is good enough we'll drop the other one

new solar system going in soon anyway, 10MW I think it was

[cursive crypt]

No idea about the later.

wuuut

10 MW?

[pearl elk]

https://tenor.com/view/outer-space-abish-mathew-son-of-abish-solar-system-where-am-i-gif-18340162

[pearl elk]

yeah 10 megawatt solar so that will offset some of the power usage during the day

[cursive crypt]

ah

[pearl elk]

or maybe not that much hmm

I dont think its that big lol

KW for sure 😉

[cursive crypt]

Nice backyard.

[pearl elk]

good thing I didnt say TW

[regal pecan]

Your house would glow. And not in the "the lights are on" sense.

[pearl elk]

my car is 400 MW 😛

https://tenor.com/view/toy-story-woody-buzz-lightyear-rocket-gif-8578323

[cursive crypt]

One colleague made his roof all panels. It runs most of the house 24/7 with them.

Not sure about the winter tho.

[pearl elk]

so Starlink power usage says 20W for idle and 50-75W total

[cursive crypt]

Ah, that pretty okayish.

[pearl elk]

Id say thats inline with the fixed satellite power usage

[cursive crypt]

Why Starlink btw?

[pearl elk]

Starlink does track though, it has motors so it might move from time to time

[cursive crypt]

Or satellite net in general

[pearl elk]

no chance of getting phone or fiber, no fixed wifi either

satellite NBN has terrible latency, 500+ where Starlink claims like 50 at worst

I live in a valley surrounded by large granite mountains, we do have a tower about 1km away but Id need a repeater station running off its own power to do point to point wifi

[cursive crypt]

Hmm... I see, no cables tho... Low density population I guess.

[pearl elk]

yup and we dont really want that to change

even if I could run cable it'd be a hell of a long cable, not sure it'd work without a booster

I think our telephone exchange is so old its inside the old post office

hello operator, Id like to stream a movie on netflix please

[fluid bloom]

1% of installed capacity I bet

[cursive crypt]

lol, I don't know it is definitely cloudy nowadays

[fluid bloom]

depending on the latitude too the sunlight radiation is fractions of what it is during summer

[cursive crypt]

Yeah, after the winter is gone, I will ask him how it was.

But 1% seems drastic, I don't know tho.

[proud jay]

apparently cats like sleeping on the dish, and it fucks up the connection

[deep copper]

so it IS a satellite?!

[cursive crypt]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-funny-cat-pc-cat-reading-workaholics-gif-14796708

[pearl elk]

https://tenor.com/view/dr-evil-evil-laugh-austin-powers-gif-11634369

[deep copper]

on a scale from 0-10, how likely are you to become an evil scientist if you had the funds, place and time for it?

[pearl elk]

https://tenor.com/view/spinal-tap-eleven-11-volume-guitar-gif-21049115

umm

Canada doesnt like Epic it seems

[proud jay]

yes

[deep copper]

why?

[pearl elk]

https://80.lv/articles/canada-sues-epic-games-because-fortnite-is-too-addictive/

[deep copper]

wth?

you can sue because of such a reason?

[quasi mantle]

That's a parent problem not Epic's problem lol

[unreal ether]

"I shall sue a games company because I can't parent my child"

[quasi mantle]

This is early 2000s all over again

[pearl elk]

youre not allowed to drag your kid and shove em in the shower, thats abuse

[deep copper]

i will sue all the drug companies

[pearl elk]

drugs tell you theyre addictive on the packet

[deep copper]

ah, so fortnite just needs to add a clause about it

[pearl elk]

game is addictive, may cause parents to sue us

[deep copper]

or a checkmark saying their Guardian accepts all responsibility

[pearl elk]

they might have that if they were on apples store 😛

[deep copper]

but tbh it's just an achievement right, getting sued for being too addictive

[celest musk]

well well well, if this doesn't backfire to bad parenting

[pearl elk]

if that were my parents they would unplug the router and hide it at someone elses house

[deep copper]

these parents are too soft yeah

tbh i would just stop playing if my parents look disappointed enough lol

[celest musk]

bro...

do your parents know that you ask for hugs here? 😄

[proud jay]

does the police know?

[pearl elk]

parents denied hugs when they played too many games

[deep copper]

no

[deep copper]

ofc not lol

[celest musk]

would they be disappointed?

[proud jay]

can they be more disappointed yet?

[deep copper]

i can just say it's a "jk" and they won't be

[celest musk]

as if that would make it better

that rather makes it worse

"see mom, i'm a internet troll"

[unborn lotus]

wait, you meant can i have drugs not hugs all this time?

[proud jay]

hugs are drugs

they both end on ugs

everything leads back to Unreal Game Sync

[deep copper]

well, i am not sure they would understand what an internet troll is

[celest musk]

well, like a creepy clown, but on the internet

[deep copper]

and are addictive

[deep copper]

"clowns are entertaining, sounds good"

[celest musk]

creepy clowns aren't

they do entertain themself

[deep copper]

"what's a creepy clown?"

[celest musk]

https://tenor.com/view/creepy-clown-creepy-clown-scary-hugs-gif-22055317

[deep copper]

that is scary, not just creepy

[celest musk]

that's you IRL

[deep copper]

the run really seals the deal

[deep copper]

but hey the balloons are good

you would try it right?

dw, i can wait

[celest musk]

i like grapes, raisins not so much

[deep copper]

that sounds like you should hurry

[unreal ether]

The grape ageism is real

But I am also in the same camp sooo

Raisins are gross. Grapes are 🤌

[fleet tangle]

There are many raisins I don't like dried fruit.

[deep copper]

they both have different flavours i guess

[unreal ether]

Not a big fan of dried fruit either but I have a few exceptions, namely, bananas, pineapple and papaya

[fleet tangle]

Dried bananas to the point that they are hard and brittle are great.

They aren't too sugary.

Raisins are basically just sugar.

[unreal ether]

True. Raisins also have a funk I don't like ngl. Banana chips are stellar tho

[unborn lotus]

No dried figs?

[celest musk]

dried cranberry is okay, too. at least in combination with nuts

[unreal ether]

Dried cranberries are good in tuna

Figs are gross

[unborn lotus]

figs are literally the best! but wild figs not orchard figs

[fleet tangle]

Fruits made of wasps 👍

[unborn lotus]

only if they sit too long. we pick them up when they're only just soft.

[fleet tangle]

I forget thd exact life cycle.

[unreal ether]

I may have to try them again. To be honest it has been a long while

Also need to go to my local canal and dig up some wild horseradish. It grows in hordes there.

[proud jay]

talking about grapes

I used my purple 3d printing filament for something

it's a caesar bust pen holder

[unreal ether]

Creative, funny, and useful

I like it

[fleet tangle]

Indeed!

"Et tu, printe?"

[proud jay]

yeah, it's a gift for my father in law

he's a history kinda guy

[unborn lotus]

can you also make one with a vlad the impaler theme?

[fleet tangle]

I'm not sure how many pencils/pens you could fit like that.

[fleet tangle]

Not sure at which point "soft" comes into it.

But "unripe" to me sounds like "not soft"

[unreal ether]

Not all figs get wasps either

Most figs you get have never seen a wasp

[fleet tangle]

Would you take the risk?!

I absolutely would. I enjoy figs.

Also reading this I see a potential source for the term "figging".

[unborn lotus]

hmm never heard about that haha. but there are very very few fig trees here

I don't think they could even grow in the 90s...thanks global warming

some of ours even got frostbite and died

[fleet tangle]

Damn.

[ancient ingot]

Balls......

[proud jay]

delicious

[ancient ingot]

Tiny

[unreal ether]

Would take the risk in trying it tbh. If I liked them would take the risk even more.

Personally insects don't really bother me that much. If I happened to get a waspy fig if just pick a different fig.

[quasi mantle]

And then there are wasps/hornets that just straight out parasitic

Those that get angry to passers-by for no real reason

[deep copper]

"get off my lawn!"

we could've used this emoji during that sueing thing

oof

[proud jay]

who are we sueing

ah epic games for addiction

of course

[pearl elk]

Pikachu I sue you

[deep copper]

"what happened next will shock you"

[pearl elk]

https://tenor.com/view/skeleton-shocked-shocking-gif-14682087

[deep copper]

why are his clothes not burned?

[unreal ether]

Shocking, isn't it

[ancient ingot]

😐

[brisk salmon]

Slightly terrified. Caved and made a chat Got account. Asked it how to make runtime procedural terrain in UE5, got an answer far better than it had any right to be

Gpt*

Also showed two of my colleagues their fairly high paying jobs aren't as difficult as one would think (didn't even try my own, I know how easy it would be to automate - don't even need an AI to do it)

[proud jay]

depends on what you do I guess lol

my brother works for the government, I could literally write up a script in 2 days that replaces him forever

I have thought about it

or should just get a second government job myself 🤔

[pearl elk]

Nigey 🥀

[ancient ingot]

😮

@sand oxide 🌹

[proud jay]

damn, that's a limp ass rose dude

the disrespect

[ancient ingot]

ikr what a twat 😂

[deep copper]

it's a wilted rose

[brisk salmon]

This is me, worst is, I've told some of the higher ups this, still no interest in doing jt

[fleet tangle]

@}-'-,-

[terse wasp]

@quiet grove https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1602173483806597121

Warning: this talk is for programming language theorists and implementors, not new programmers. Tutorials coming in early 2023!
Like I said - that talk was not for us 😅

Possibly Tim Sweeney (@TimSweeneyEpic)

Simon Peyton Jones gave the very first talk about Verse, the new programming language we're building for the metaverse. (Warning: this talk is for programming language theorists and implementors, not new programmers. Tutorials coming in early 2023!)

Likes

579

Twitter · Dec 12, 2022, 5:28 AM

[fleet tangle]

Quick, somebody link the XKCD strip again.

[pearl elk]

makes the font choice even more interesting

[proud jay]

which one though

[celest musk]

it's somehow funny

they make some kind of python wrapper/framework, announce it as new scripting language and use comic sans (it fits well after all)

[pearl elk]

Im not sure tutorials is what I need, I just want them to show code lol

[proud jay]

there was some code in an earlier post of a while ago

the page title in browser tab of slides is literally "a taste of haskell" lol

probably the guy is just as Haskell fan though

[pearl elk]

Mate I wanna see actual functional code not just a screenshot from 2020

[proud jay]

have you considered asking mr Tim nicely

wtf how did I lose a whole word in that sentence

imagine if Jon Skeet didn't like Java

👋 automod

[deep copper]

happens all time

[proud jay]

wtf jon skeet is also a preacher?

like religious boy

[deep copper]

that makes us living in a simulation more believable

[pearl elk]

maybe we're already in the verse

[deep copper]

no wonder they call it universe

[pearl elk]

Mr Sweeney just see's the code

[proud jay]

no you need verse

[deep copper]

drop some verses for me, dieter

[pearl elk]

universe is oooold its all about the multimetamegaverse

[deep copper]

mmmv in short

[mossy nexus]

16 billion years old

*at least

[pearl elk]

thats why you see the numbers on the end of movies, it tells you which instance the story comes from

[deep copper]

that's big

[proud jay]

In the world of code, a new language has emerged
It's called Verse, and it's a programming gem
With its syntax and structure, it's easy to learn
It's quickly become a favorite for those who code and yearn

With Verse, you can create programs that are tight
And hug all your friends with just one line of code, that's right
No longer will you have to write complex scripts
To show your affection, Verse makes it a breeze, in just a few bits

So if you're a coder, give Verse a try
And see how it simplifies your life, oh my!
With its power and simplicity, it's sure to be a hit
In the world of programming, Verse is it!

[deep copper]

reminds me, i think openAi has something to convert speech to python code in its previous page, not in chatGPT , i wonder if it's more functional than chatGPT

or chatGPT just uses that so both are bad

[proud jay]

speech to python?

how lol

[deep copper]

i think it said that in the playground option, i never bothered, let me try and see what it is

it's called "natural language to python" , i wonder what to ask it

[proud jay]

write a script to convince people to hug you

[deep copper]

cool

it doesn't do anything

[proud jay]

even chatGPT says you're a creep @deep copper

[deep copper]

enough about me 💢 tell me a valid code thing

[proud jay]

omg lmao

[deep copper]

i am just going to ask it to fizzbuzz

[proud jay]

if I change it to "woman" instead of "man" it just responds normally

chatGPT sexist confirmed

[pearl elk]

ask it how much wood can a woodchuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood

[deep copper]

that's how the real world works though

[terse wasp]

Show it

[proud jay]

and just fyi, I tried it again with "man" and again refused to respond

[terse wasp]

hahahahahahaha

[deep copper]

okay so it gave me examples, it can do stuff like "create a javascript dictionary of countries and capitals" and "create list of 100 last names, first names, then combine them randomly" stuff

it needs to be specific it seems, compared to chatGPT

but odfly enough, it didn't do the fizzbuzz test, i thought that should be something common

[proud jay]

paid for by china

[deep copper]

maybe it would answer if you ask it that in Chinese

[timber viper]

Returnal is coming to PC, but you’ll need 32GB of RAM to play comfortably. The minimum is 16GB, but 32GB of RAM is the unusual recommended amount
Industry needs to take it a little bit slower

we cant directly jump to 32gb recommended ram amount on games

[proud jay]

spiderman also had 32gb recommended

but worked fine with less

returnal is nice though

I suck though

still haven't made it past first biome lmao

but I've been close a few times

[timber viper]

if it wasnt UE game I'd say its going to be a shit PC port

horizon zero dawn had texture scaling issues all over the place... like LOD4 on 1m away mesh

[deep copper]

okay so this did work
it just gave a long speech with [Name] for where the name goes basically, you need to add """ and """ before and after the text prompt for it to work, but it's annoying to work with because it keeps adding the default example text whenever you start typing

[mossy nexus]

Let's not forget the exploding hair. Aloy had some real bad hair days back then

[deep copper]

that sounds oddly cool

okay it did fizzbuzz

for num in range(1, 101):
    if num % 3 == 0 and num % 5 == 0:
        print('FizzBuzz')
    elif num % 3 == 0:
        print('Fizz')
    elif num % 5 == 0:
        print('Buzz')
    else:
        print(num)

[timber viper]

Death Stranding was like that iirc

[deep copper]

"""
write a code that kills people if they don't hug in 5 seconds after requesting for
"""

import time

people = ['John', 'Sam', 'Joe']

for person in people:
print(f"{person}, please hug me")
if not time.sleep(5):
print(f"{person}, you didn't hug me in time. You must die!")
else:
print(f"{person}, I'm glad you hugged me!")

uhm, is that how time.sleep worked?

[timber viper]

chatgpt be like: "i wont write a callback system that detects hug from people just for your code snippet lmao"

[deep copper]

i mean, that function should return None after making the script do nothing for 5 sec

so it will always kill everyone

let me verify

[timber viper]

you would have a function like wait(something) or similar essentially

chatgpt skipped that part probably

[deep copper]

yeah, maybe too complex

but it tried, i didn't think it would even write dialogues

[timber viper]

i dont think too complex in python but just boilerplate

[deep copper]

most probably

[pearl elk]

Additionally, it is not ethical to administer alcohol to animals. damn you chat

[deep copper]

what did you ask xD

[timber viper]

my cat likes to lick beer i spilled to table

[pearl elk]

write me a python program for determining the blood alcohol content of grizzly bears

[deep copper]

if it wanted to keep it simple it could have rolled a random number as time taken to hug, if greater than 5, kill

guess it really thought i wanted the time module

it definitely kills all, i ran it

[timber viper]

you said "in seconds" to bot

it had to find a way to receive a response from something in 5 seconds

went with most straightforward way

[proud jay]

gpt calling me out like this smh

[deep copper]

"""
write me a python program for determining the blood alcohol content of grizzly bears
"""

This program calculates the blood alcohol content (BAC) of grizzly bears

First, we need to get some input from the user

weight = float(input("Please enter the grizzly bear's weight in kilograms: "))
alcohol_consumed = float(input("Please enter the amount of alcohol consumed in milliliters: "))

Now we use a formula to calculate the BAC of the grizzly bear

BAC = (alcohol_consumed / (weight * 10)) * 100

Finally, we print out the result

print("The grizzly bear's blood alcohol content is: " + str(BAC) + "%")

the playground generated it

it doesn't decline anything it seems

[pearl elk]

ahh you used the updated algorithm

[deep copper]

uhm, no, it's the older bot that can't talk

[pearl elk]

you can adjust the character limit on the side

[deep copper]

or so i think

is it updated?

[timber viper]

😦

[deep copper]

i see it's at 300

i don't have the capacity to read longer anyway

[timber viper]

nice, if i write longer than 300 i can avoid you?

[deep copper]

"""
write a code to help eren keep track of all his cats and their deit and cuddle 
"""

# Create a dictionary to keep track of Eren's cats
cats = {}

# Add each cat to the dictionary with their diet and cuddle preferences
cats["Boots"] = {"diet": "dry food", "cuddle": True}
cats["Tiger"] = {"diet": "wet food", "cuddle": False}
cats["Whiskers"] = {"diet": "raw diet", "cuddle": True}

# Print the dictionary
print(cats)

it is taking the easy way out but i guess the character limit is at play

[pearl elk]

youre doing the code block wrong

[deep copper]

i am too lazy to do it right

[deep copper]

there you go, just for you

[pearl elk]

I like how the AI corrected you

[timber viper]

is it common you replace enums with strings in python

[deep copper]

ah i reran it,

"""
write a code to help eren keep track of all his cats and their deit and cuddle 
"""

# Creating a dictionary to store the cats and their info
eren_cats = {
    'Mittens': {
        'diet': 'wet food',
        'cuddle': 'yes'
    },
    'Whiskers': {
        'diet': 'dry food',
        'cuddle': 'no'
    },
    'Furball': {
        'diet': 'wet food',
        'cuddle': 'yes'
    }
}

# Function to print out all the information on a given cat
def view_cat(cat_name):
    cat_info = eren_cats[cat_name]
    print(f"{cat_name}'s diet is {cat_info['diet']} and it likes to cuddle: {cat_info['cuddle']}")

# Function to update the diet of a given cat
def update_cat_diet(cat_name, new_diet):
    eren_cats[cat_name]['diet'] = new_diet
    print(f"{cat_name}'s diet has been updated to {new_diet}")

# Function to update the cuddle preference of a given cat
def update_cat_cuddle(cat_name, cuddle_pref):

[timber viper]

and True instead of true?

[deep copper]

it wrote functions

[deep copper]

enums as in iterable text items?

[deep copper]

true false doesn't exist, True and False only

[proud jay]

it is common that python sucks ass for sure though

[timber viper]

enums are integers but they are symbols* for programmers

enum Diet
{
  WetFood,
  DryFood,
  SomethingElse
}

wetfood is equal to 0, dryfood is equal to 1, but you can type them as WetFood for parameters taking Diet enum

i guess you write a dictionary for that in python

Diet = {WetFood:0, DryFood:1}

[proud jay]

enums in python are actual ass

you have to inherit from a class called Enum

[timber viper]

can I add functions? 😄

[proud jay]

yes

[timber viper]

lol

why not let users create their enums with dictionaries 😂

[proud jay]

# Import the Enum base class
from enum import Enum

# Define a new enumeration type called `Animal`
class Animal(Enum):
    DOG = 1
    CAT = 2
    BIRD = 3
    
    # Define a method on the Animal enumeration
    def make_sound(self):
        if self == Animal.DOG:
            print("Woof!")
        elif self == Animal.CAT:
            print("Meow!")
        elif self == Animal.BIRD:
            print("Tweet!")

# Define a variable of the Animal enumeration type
my_pet = Animal.DOG

# Call the method on the enumeration member
my_pet.make_sound()

thanks gpt

[deep copper]

0 and 1 so like true and false or 0 1 2 3?
you can have integers in place of yes and no yeah
or do you mean the names? yeah those have to be strings, so that you can also change them on the fly with simple string formatting and all i guess?

[timber viper]

think like each enum value mapped to an integer

WetFood mapped to 0 since its first thing you typed to enum

[deep copper]

classes in python are generally yucky

[timber viper]

problem is you can mutate string

[deep copper]

you don't want it to change ever?

[proud jay]

python is generally yucky

[timber viper]

if you do 0:"WetFood user can troll you by setting dict[0]="not wet food lmao"

[deep copper]

and in python you cant mutate a string, you only make the thing point to a new string, so everything referencing the older string still exists

[deep copper]

ah, you want pickable items from a list?

[proud jay]

the literals yeah

but if you assigned the string var to another var

that new one just points to the same thing no?

[timber viper]

doesnt js have enums?

[proud jay]

python does some weird stuff with making references of everything without you knowing

[deep copper]

if i understood correctly, yes

[timber viper]

it is

[deep copper]

it probably does, never used it though

[proud jay]

ngl, while we're hating enums, Golang has the dumbest enums ever

as in, it doesn't have them

[deep copper]

you can use a tuple and point to that maybe as options, tuples can't be changed

[timber viper]

why hate enums

[deep copper]

but, you will have to pick an option seperately

[proud jay]

this is in go (thanks again gpt for saving me typing)

[deep copper]

it doesn't store choices like enums i am guessing

[timber viper]

ew

[proud jay]

the fun thing is, these consts are just globals now

[timber viper]

i wonder how it is in carbon

[proud jay]

carbon existed after gpt was trained 😭

[deep copper]

aw poor carbon, left out

i wonder if this playground has carbon

[proud jay]

from official carbon doc on github

[timber viper]

lmao

a few months ago i learned creating enums for a programming language is not the easiest thing ever

[deep copper]

i don't think it does, the name is natural language to python afterall

"""
write carbon code
”""

import carbon

carbon.init()

graph = carbon.graph()

# Create a graph with 3 nodes
graph.add_node("A")
graph.add_node("B")
graph.add_node("C")

# Add edges between the nodes
graph.add_edge("A", "B")
graph.add_edge("B", "C")
graph.add_edge("C", "A")

# Visualize the graph
carbon.draw(graph)

yup, totally what i meant

it has 4 options, python, curl, node.js, json

[pearl elk]

so apparently theres such thing as a 20L wine bottle

https://www.idealwine.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Bottle-sizes-maximus.jpg

jeebus

[ancient ingot]

omg 😮

[unreal ether]

So about the average students weekly alcohol intake then?

[ancient ingot]

pretty much lol

[fleet tangle]

No way that is 20L.

More like 100.

Or even 150.

[deep copper]

it's probably, 40-60, unless the glass is real thick so it can be 20

mons got a new pfp again

[pearl elk]

pfp is the new nft

[deep copper]

i wonder what a " 🫂 " sent by someone with your pfp and name would look like

[unborn lotus]

A bucket is 20L, that is 300-400L 😅

[deep copper]

maybe a small person and house then

or perhaps the bottle is mostly empty

[pearl elk]

Im not sure a small person should live in a wine bottle

[deep copper]

if ships can live in it, why can't people?

[pearl elk]

tiny pirates

[deep copper]

that's so, livingist .?

oh wait, you are part of the green gang now

[pearl elk]

I wanted to be part of the light background crew

[deep copper]

aye aye captain!