lounge

[celest musk]

or it was supposed to be only named Overprime!? 🤷

[soft night]

i saw it epic launcher the free games

[topaz depot]

In this demonstration, affectionateGPT feels laughter and joy.

[soft night]

https://store.epicgames.com/en-US/p/paragon-the-overprime-0bca60

[deep copper]

yes, and it needs hugs as a fuel

[pearl elk]

TimTams make better fuel than hugs

[topaz depot]

🤗

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/jc-deviant1-fuel-gif-13889088

[deep copper]

stop with the pop references 😭 just like chatGPT, my training data is sparse

[pearl elk]

chatGPT has a better data set

you need to up your game hugbot

[proud jay]

hmm bought a different brand of ground coffee

that shit smells delicious

[turbid spindle]

:question: does ChatGPT use wiki as dataset?
:8ball: Cannot predict now.

[slim atlas]

this is cool

some good came out of the paragon thingy

[pearl elk]

Just dont look at the steam reviews lol

[soft night]

Mons have you got the sweater?

[pearl elk]

nope, I got a very similar one but it says ripcurl on it

[soft night]

https://i.redd.it/u2nrwrdnbfz51.jpg

[pearl elk]

oh that sweater

thought you were talkin bout the Paragon hoodie

https://external-preview.redd.it/wBzq2ONRmqHJwTW6wLwP4p1FdLz5fysz5KFHb5MIibI.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=07bdf215a76e60b82d69c711a609bdb7af626db1

[celest musk]

is this a rare item?

[pearl elk]

I did actually get CC'd into a coversation regarding Paragon once, apparently one of their sound people has a similar name so I ended up in an internal convo lol

[fleet tangle]

Epic HR are pretty terrible.

[deep copper]

ouch 😦

[pearl elk]

You need to expand out of the hug zone

[deep copper]

hey that's cool

[deep copper]

maybe they were leaking info on purpose 👀

[deep copper]

fine ! let's talk about Santa

do you like Santa?

[pearl elk]

https://tenor.com/view/billy-bob-thornton-what-what-do-you-want-looking-confused-gif-15220853

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/santa-claus-snow-winter-yes-approved-gif-10226670

[thin aspen]

What brand? Also what kind of beans?

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/coffee-good-morning-morning-breakfast-hot-gif-10226685

the coffee what i got from xmas gift is Santa branded coffee

[deep copper]

that's one super cool wig

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/we-dont-do-that-here-black-panther-tchalla-bruce-gif-16558003

[deep copper]

i tried lip reading and "uwee" is all i got

maybe "we"?

[pearl elk]

"what!?!"

[soft night]

yeah its what

monsolympus have earned a coffee

[proud jay]

nothing fancy lol, it's Jacqmotte dessert delice, but it's just supermarket stuff, idk what kind of beans they use

[soft night]

https://santaclausfinland.fi/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/joulupukin-kahvi-2020.jpg

[pearl elk]

https://tenor.com/view/tea-elves-sip-prep-and-landing-gif-5404167

[deep copper]

ah!

[soft night]

au you need to check this https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0307987/

[pearl elk]

Good luck trying to see more movies than Ive seen though 😛

[deep copper]

that's kinda interesting

[deep copper]

i don't think i will even try..

[pearl elk]

You could just watch all the 700 odd on my current watchlist and spoil em lol

[deep copper]

i can't... i have no plans to watch even 1......

[pearl elk]

You need to expand your horizons

[deep copper]

@topaz depot 😊

[pearl elk]

I recommend the fantastic movie called Passengers, its one of the best if not the best of our time!

[deep copper]

hey i have heard the name

[pearl elk]

If there was one movie I recommend for everyone to see before they die its that movie

[deep copper]

it's definately famous

[deep copper]

why?

[pearl elk]

I dont have time to explain, too busy trying to use Python for GraphQL on Electron

[cursive crypt]

Electron has seen some positive move lately.

[pearl elk]

Was actually super simple to setup, I just dunno which UI library Im gonna use yet

Maybe react-bootstrap

[cursive crypt]

No idea what is Electron actually. It just annoyed me to be run over Linux/Steam.

[pearl elk]

its chromium and node.js

[soft night]

one way https://avaloniaui.net/

[deep copper]

ah okay, goodluck! if you ever need any hugs ,i am here

[pearl elk]

https://microsoft.github.io/microsoft-ui-xaml/

[cursive crypt]

<t:1670775461:D>

[soft night]

well https://platform.uno/

[cursive crypt]

pixel perfect code? lol

[pearl elk]

priorities

[quasi mantle]

For non-English European languages, what are the most common ones for games to get translated into?

[deep copper]

English..?

it is european?

right?

[quasi mantle]

Well, yeah, but that doesn't count because I wrote the script in English first

[pearl elk]

Russian

[deep copper]

ah okay

[zinc wagon]

i think french? maybe spanish

[pearl elk]

German and yeah French

[proud jay]

German, French, Spanish, Italian and Polish, definitely those first 3

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/löysä-bear-mega-löysä-löysää-suomi-gif-18953905

sauna to relax

[unreal ether]

Russian, German, Spanish and French would be my primary targets because of how widespread they are.

Next targets would be Polish, Italian and Portuguese

[quasi mantle]

I'll go with 3 EU languages for now, still need some more research on other region
If the need arise, maybe it could be delivered with update

[topaz depot]

I'm perfectly expanded.

[primal summit]

I'd suggest English (US), English (GB), and Pirate

to borrow from minecraft

[foggy path]

seeing benui tweeting about verse is like ??????

every time I learn more about that language it makes me wonder are they trying to make something ambiguous and confusing

:D

[deep copper]

maybe they want to make something new

[cursive crypt]

who?

[broken sigil]

Every time I learn more it makes me like it even less lol

[pearl elk]

lol this PDF

[cursive crypt]

what?

[primal summit]

I'm on a quest to do a stupid!

[pearl elk]

https://twitter.com/_benui/status/1601969086933897217

ben🌱ui (@_benui)

This is the new #UnrealEngine scripting language. Check out the PDF for details.

Twitter · Dec 11, 2022, 3:56 PM

[cursive crypt]

Please continue 🤔

[cursive crypt]

No, thanks.

[pearl elk]

theres a pdf if you click through to the original tweet

[cursive crypt]

ah, I see

[quasi mantle]

No semicolon, but at least Wait() is what the Delay node is.

I mean, no way verse would just freeze the whole thread

[primal summit]

You're probably familiar with Lua. There's also Luajit, a compiled-to-bytecode version that runs on a small VM. I want to write some VHDL to do the entire decoding and execution of the bytecode on an FPGA so I can program a robot in Lua for laughs.

[cursive crypt]

uuh, I meant, please continue, let us not stop you on your quest to do stupid.

[primal summit]

ahh

[cursive crypt]

Lua is... oof

[primal summit]

like I said, for laughs

[cursive crypt]

hmm.. saw something today on that topic.

It is sad.

[pearl elk]

I feel like quest to do stupid sounds like a great programming language name

[primal summit]

it's a small, turing-complete language

it's relatively quick, it's not python or java

it hit all the checkboxes

[primal summit]

I agree. I shall name the project that.

[quasi mantle]

I am somewhat familiar with Lua, but I kinda hate the syntaxing

[primal summit]

plus it'd make it the first hardware-level scripting language

[quasi mantle]

where's brainf*** though?

[cursive crypt]

Down the comments... But you can imagine the description.

[pearl elk]

ArnoldC ftw

[cursive crypt]

!$#@%$#@% @#$

Portugese

[quasi mantle]

Well, Spanish is a bit different to Portuguese

[primal summit]

I feel like simplified chinese and sanskrit would cover about half the world's population

[cursive crypt]

latin btw

[pearl elk]

carpe diem

[primal summit]

Akkadian and Linear A used to be popular

about half of south america

true

icelandic, get that old norse feeling

[pearl elk]

I feel like Zulu and Navajo are good choices

diversity you see, people dont support those languages much

[broken sigil]

Reading the Verse slides.... Don't know how I feel about it, looks worse than JavaScript

[pearl elk]

I noped out at "functional programming language" lol

[bleak remnant]

send?

it says you cannot learn cpp as a first language

[pearl elk]

I dont understand how a precompiled language is the way forward for an ever changing and expanding metaverse. Maybe Im missing something

[bleak remnant]

i mean i learned some very simple vb in a hs class first

but I wouldn't say it's that bad compared to other languages

[broken sigil]

The syntax is awful, some of their decision are even more awful, = can mean either assignment or comparison depending on the context... What's wrong with you people...

[bleak remnant]

if (x=0) then 1 else n * fac(n-1)```

why make it ugly tho

well glad I live in a world where unreal uses c++ as it's main coding language and not verse

[pearl elk]

theyre scared of code injection 😛

[bleak remnant]

iN tHe MEtAVeRsE

yeah lowkey cringed when I saw that in the pdf

[broken sigil]

They have some confusing stuff with extending variable scopes to the next line with :
What...

[pearl elk]

no corporate overlord yet everyone on the language doc specs works for Epic... hmm guys we need to talk 😛

[deep copper]

what is :=

[broken sigil]

I hate it

I'll take C# any day over this

[bleak remnant]

yikes

look at those declarations

the returns sure

[bleak remnant]

not sure how people create languages like this after using C++ their entire lives

it's like they were brainwashed to have no programming bias when doing this

[deep copper]

is that the python's trashy single line ternary alternative? that if else usage is clearly that but expanded

[pearl elk]

I really need to see real world examples though, if it really does live updates of running code

[bleak remnant]

correct me if im wrong but doesn't c# do that aswell?

[zinc wagon]

i mean unreal has LC which it seems to work for the most part

[zinc wagon]

hot reload you mean?

[pearl elk]

Depends on the definition I suppose, this makes it sound like it can deploy code live over the network

[bleak remnant]

doesn't it actually work though in unity

imagine debugging

[pearl elk]

imagine lagging while conversing 😛

[zinc wagon]

been a long time since i used unity but i remember needing to stop the game for changes to apply

[bleak remnant]

ic

[quasi mantle]

Imagine having to restart for changes to properly take place

[zinc wagon]

POV: C# devs

[quasi mantle]

Speaking of which
Did Hot Reload completely gone in 5.1?

[pearl elk]

you mean fans spooling up lol

[zinc wagon]

no it's still there

sadly

LC is on by default tho but you can change it to hotreload if you hate yourself

[quasi mantle]

Weird, the Compile button in my project is gone when I haven't rebuilt Live Coding Console

[broken sigil]

Sounds awesome for exploits 🥲

[timber viper]

verse looks atrocious

[pearl elk]

I'll just hijack your IP and slip my little verse in there

[broken sigil]

It definitely ain't lol

[quasi mantle]

Verse makes me grateful for Lua

[broken sigil]

Now C# looks amazing in comparison

[timber viper]

Why FP for game scripting though

[quasi mantle]

As much as I despise Lua's syntaxing (and I still have no idea about pointers in Lua)

[timber viper]

Lua has pointers?

[zinc wagon]

lua? that roblox scripting language?

[timber viper]

btw yesterday I came to a realization UE's heavy oop philosophy never gets along well with lua....

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/william-wegman-waiting-dog-gif-21112636

[zinc wagon]

same thing ig

[quasi mantle]

And let me to shot down plans to use Lua

[terse wasp]

I didn't read 'em - looked more like math 😅

[broken sigil]

Some c bias would have been real beneficial here 😐

[timber viper]

not bad as very simple scripting layer but you cant even expose #gameplay-ability-system properly

and coroutines are not powerful as other languages

[broken sigil]

Was it negative or positive 0?

[timber viper]

what specifically increased your hype

[broken sigil]

So it went from -0 to 0?

[terse wasp]

Well - it certainly is different 😅

This is supposed to go to Fortnite creator 2.0 first? This will be fun.

[pearl elk]

Atleast I'll get to see some real world examples of the language in practise if its in Fortnite

this academic stuff always smells like farts to me 😛

[timber viper]

I wonder how 13-17 age fortnite modders will sort it out

[quasi mantle]

At least it'll still compete with Lua as Roblox used it.

[terse wasp]

We'll see Santa Sweeny...we'll see

[broken sigil]

I don't know how any of this looked like a good idea on paper but I guess we will see soon

I would feel kinda bad if it gets rejected because they spent a lot of time on it but me personally, it isn't doing anything that I like but the exact opposite...

[quiet grove]

oh thank fuck we're talking about verse i"m losing my mind

[pearl elk]

I doubt that these old head programmers listened to anyone beneath them

[quiet grove]

Right now that's the most understandable part

[broken sigil]

🥹😐😭

[terse wasp]

I already knew they were going functional - you don't hire someone who has been doing functional languages their entire life if you don't plan on going functional

[quiet grove]

So I'm trying to go through and understand how the different parts of the language fit together. I thought I understood how | was being used as like, an || in an if, but then they use , to denote &&... So hear me out.
At the start they say that you can make tuples and assign them sort of like this.

ages := (26,43);

but then later they say that this is how to write an &&

if (x<20, y>0) then e1 else e2

But they say that a conditional succeeds if there are one or more values. If either of those succeed, don't you get a tuple of at least one?... so it should succeed?

[quasi mantle]

At the very least I hope Verse is not forced

[terse wasp]

@timber viper Well shit brother - Angelscript, am I right? 🤣

[quasi mantle]

Fortnite can do anything it wants, as long as proper UE5 isn't forced to use verse.

Also here's hoping for continuation about UGC plugins for UE5

[terse wasp]

Like - I'm willing to still give it a shot...but...yeah.....

[quiet grove]

so if you tried to define a tuple like this, you'd end up with... nothing?

ages := (5, 59, false?, 37)

it seems to be something like null, or that mathy slashed O shit

[broken sigil]

"you see... In this easy to learn programming language we removed bools and made an if statement as confusing as it can be, it's just that simple"

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/pc-master-race-brain-command-gif-15915220

[timber viper]

i just wanted an explicit, strong typed, c-like language that goes well with oop
not haskell shit

[quiet grove]

I think it's designed like:

• C++: For regular programming.
• Blueprints: For regular visual programming.
• Verse: Real sicko shit 🤘

[pearl elk]

not sure what school you went to

[quasi mantle]

Old UGC plugins completely fall apart in UE5, I hope after Fortnite Creative 2 come out there are new version of them.

My mod support status is uncertain again

[terse wasp]

Wild to me that they are removing booleans

[soft night]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OOPic

[quiet grove]

also why is it if() when it's for{ }

[timber viper]

0=1 makes no sense to my c++ mind

[quiet grove]

= is comparison in Verse, not assignment

[quasi mantle]

Verse: Lunatic degenerate pastor

[terse wasp]

Because reasons

[pearl elk]

but 0!=1

[quiet grove]

https://twitter.com/_benui/status/1602007916554641408

ben🌱ui (@_benui)

= is equality not assignment because fuck you that's why

Twitter · Dec 11, 2022, 6:30 PM

[timber viper]

gr8, totally not confusing

[terse wasp]

What friggin' timeline is this? Laura is somewhat defending Verse and I'm rejecting it.

[pearl elk]

you have to balance your equation mang

[zinc wagon]

verse kinda reminds me of pascal

[quiet grove]

@sand oxide be honest, you've dabbled in Haskell before. We're all friends here. No judgment.

you keep using the word "logic" but I'm not seeing it

[terse wasp]

So when is the UE in review? I'm sure people will be asking questions about this 😅

[quiet grove]

ohhhh fuck that explains why you can do this. Thank you

[terse wasp]

To be fair - Tim did say they were doing some radical things with Verse.

[turbid spindle]

:question: you like math?
:8ball: It is certain.

[broken sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-exactly-what-i-needed-michael-groth-mandjtv-its-all-i-needed-its-what-ive-always-wanted-gif-21443902

[quiet grove]

OK so they're like const sort of

[broken sigil]

Depends on the context 😭

[quiet grove]

I'm writing a blog post right now trying to summarize all this shit and translate it from "Hey it makes sense if you gave yourself brain-damage with Haskell or math" to "Hey you know C++, here's what it sort of means"

[timber viper]

laura do you use some sort of cpu alongside with a brain to resolve the ambiguity of the language

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/portals-metaverse-portals-metaverse-night-city-city-at-night-gif-26411783

[terse wasp]

She's just better than us 🥲

[pearl elk]

but this is meant to be a first language

[quiet grove]

I can never remember what declarative vs functional means.
Declarative is C++? Functional is Lisp?

[terse wasp]

Like - I know some functional languages. But I dislike 'em for the most part.

[soft night]

if you cant be better then join them

[quiet grove]

They're not even joking

[pearl elk]

Im tainted by electronics engineering

[cursive crypt]

c++ can be declarative too

[broken sigil]

She has just been ruined by these types of languages already, there is no hope for her

[pearl elk]

this is complex pure math stuff most people dont learn until into their 20s

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/coding-hello-world-c-programming-programming-gif-21075258

[cursive crypt]

uuh, nice

That detail, I didn't knew

Templates are dope

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/batman-thinking-data-structures-computer-science-krebsbach-gif-19183634

[pearl elk]

struct=struct apparently evaluates inline

[terse wasp]

https://www.youtube.com/@skills_matter/videos Apparently the talk is supposed to pop up on here some time in the future

[broken sigil]

Still god awful either way, this is not the way to go for a game dev scripting language

[cursive crypt]

I dunno whether it looks interesting. Looks more like for "casual" gamers.

[broken sigil]

You have issues 😅

[timber viper]

i'll never understand how come haskell has this type of an esoteric community

[pearl elk]

sounds great for math nerds who want to flex

[broken sigil]

||THIS IS A JOKE||

[timber viper]

you just saw it? 😄

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/polar-vortex-dancing-grilling-chicago-winter-gif-13568034

[terse wasp]

Like - I'm willing to give it a try and I do think Tim knows games. So that is some kind of reassurance in my eyes.

[pearl elk]

this is my response when someone asks why a feature isnt written in verse yet

[soft night]

because its written by blueAI

[pearl elk]

in the end all the academic stuff means nothin if productivity isnt there

[cursive crypt]

Maybe verse was created by that chatgpl

[terse wasp]

"types as first-class values, using effects rather than monads, and transactional memory at scale"
What is an effect in this sense? 🤔

[timber viper]

what is a zzt

[broken sigil]

Same, but looking at this I can't imagine they tested it with people that it is meant for and gonna be used by in the end

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/power-rangers-santa-now-who-wants-presents-santa-claus-presents-gif-26390883

[terse wasp]

Old game Tim did. Like one of his first ones.

[cursive crypt]

that

[pearl elk]

other

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/paragon-moba-twinblast-gif-26353879

[pearl elk]

amongus sus sus on trend

[timber viper]

dont compare bet with true

[pearl elk]

let my riches be equal to elon musks riches

[timber viper]

so how am I going to set bReplicates to true if it doesnt have bools

[broken sigil]

And then it hits you with x:nahbro; if(x≥bronah)

[cursive crypt]

amen

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/two-plus-two-equals-six-government-gif-24638410

[terse wasp]

Well - I have doubts that it'll be good for people to jump into under the context of Fortnite Creative - but Laura did make a compelling argument for it as a first language. How it makes sense if you aren't tainted.

[pearl elk]

lets be real though, English is a terrible language yet here we are

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/family-love-kids-children-creativity-gif-25939513

[broken sigil]

Curious how people in general will react to it in practice, me personally I can't see myself using it

Like imagine this being your first programming language, good luck learning c++ after

[fringe sundial]

bruh you dont get it, that stuff is for the mathematical rules

its not the actual syntax and implementation

[pearl elk]

I just dont see a language created by a single company gaining widespread adoption outside on a larger scale

[terse wasp]

How is this going to interop with the rest of UE as well? That's going to be interesting. I know they've been using the "ScriptLanguage" (or w/e meta tag) for their functions lately

[fringe sundial]

what presentation, you mean the blue slides, or the 2 year old capture

[pearl elk]

Its a politics thing which unfortunately is the way of the world, we use alot of crappy stuff simply because "its the way its always been done*

[broken sigil]

We are talking about the presentation and actual syntax

[fringe sundial]

the blues only show this

[terse wasp]

we use alot of crappy stuff simply because "its the way its always been done*
Well - Verse is trying to be quite different apparently. Sooooo

[fringe sundial]

there isnt much to this other than "you can do tuples"

[cursive crypt]

Has like 2 colors in total

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-fish-funny-animals-fishing-watching-fish-gif-11949252

[terse wasp]

I did not see that pdf

Hot diggity dog

[fringe sundial]

oh shiiiiiiiit i didnt see that one

[pearl elk]

Unity for example since its mentioned in the papers, you think they'll go oh awesome Verse lets use that so Epic can poach our staff lol

[broken sigil]

Enjoy 🥲

[timber viper]

[terse wasp]

So, today we get Verse info and this week we get AMD benchmarks. What a great week.

lol

[timber viper]

where is this one written?

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/sonic-gif-25687409

[pearl elk]

see now if Gabe and Phil Spencer endorsed Verse, boom

[quiet grove]

idk, people that have already had their brain broken by haskell et al. don't get a say

[terse wasp]

Probably this

[broken sigil]

Mine was just more cemented in

[pearl elk]

maybe get Carmack on Rogan again to talk about how awesome Verse is

[fringe sundial]

it looks super interesting to me

an actually new lang

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/ugly-sonic-chip-n-dale-movie-sonic-creepy-sonic-gif-25750280

[fringe sundial]

one that attempts to bring functional programming to the mainstream

[pearl elk]

It is interesting but plenty of cool interesting things go no where or take a long time to go anywhere

[soft night]

F# for fucntional programming

[terse wasp]

I'm open to it. More cautious now - but still open to trying it

[timber viper]

will we be able to implement ecs to verse though

[broken sigil]

Feel like it's gonna be interesting only on paper, can't imagine anyone enjoying this in practice

[timber viper]

had to ask after reading a few hundreds ecs convos from vblancos message history

[fringe sundial]

well unreal now has Mass so...

so in theory if verse does end up with being callable from anywhere, that means you might have verse callbacks from your ecs code

leave your cpp loops for optimized stuff, use verse callbacks for stuff like collision logic or whatever, all called from the parallelized ecs

[timber viper]

oh wait..
@fringe sundial since you are here
is this info still accurate that PS4 takes 1ms to process 400 empty bp ticks

[fringe sundial]

yes

on ue5 too

[timber viper]

because i've read you both say 200 and 400

on different convos

[fringe sundial]

its kind of a ballpark

[soft night]

https://fsbolero.io/

[broken sigil]

Please don't remind me that this is going to be a reality at some point 🥲

[fringe sundial]

everyone gansta when verse shows itself to be 5 to 10 times faster than BP, plus having multhireading the cpp side cant do

[broken sigil]

I highly doubt that (not the faster than BP, that ain't too difficult)

[fringe sundial]

(its actually not even hard to make a scripting lang 5 times faster than BP, bp is terrible implementation)

ive done it myself

[timber viper]

lua itself is more than 5 times faster than bp

for every feature

[fringe sundial]

exactly

and thats before luajit even being counted

with luajit is like 10x

[pearl elk]

so what we are saying is BP isnt verses main competitor, other scripting languages are

[fringe sundial]

blueprint VM is unchanged from the 90s

it still has the original unrealscript VM

just extra instructions and tweaks over time

[terse wasp]

Well this is supposed to be open - wonder how well it could be adopted to other tools. I still want to try and implement Verse in Godot 😅

[fringe sundial]

since the 90s stuff has developed a fair bit

multithreading exists now, cpus and VMs are much more advanced

[quiet grove]

I wonder how much of this still holds true. The syntax in the slides from last week show a lot of if (x > 10) then ... else ..., maybe that's the single-line syntax vs the Python-like syntax shown here?
https://twitter.com/saji8k/status/1339709691564179464

Saji (@saji8k)

Looks like @EpicGames is bringing scripting to @UnrealEngine. They showed it off working with @FNCreate on today's livestream, so UE5 support is likely. It is a completely new programming language and it might be called Unreal Verse.

Likes

504

Retweets

103

Twitter · Dec 17, 2020, 11:10 PM

[broken sigil]

And here was me hoping verse and BPs might share a new shiny vm but it seems like more and more that BPs are gonna be stuck the prehistoric VM

[fringe sundial]

thats 2 years old

[pearl elk]

and we still aint seen any functioning code

[regal pecan]

BP to Verse conversion and hot reload

[timber viper]

how BP handles out params on functions is atrocious

and prevents me from nativizing for loops

[magic palm]

I didn't know there was a lounge 🙂

[fringe sundial]

BP to verse is feasible and could actually happen

like nativization

[timber viper]

i dont think i ever see you outside of the #gameplay-ai 😄

[regal pecan]

nativization was the word I was looking for

[fringe sundial]

its even possible thats why they have removed nativization

why use nativization when you can compile stuff to the verse VM

which is much faster

[magic palm]

Yeah, one of the downsides of being on like 100 different discord servers 🙂

[pearl elk]

That doesnt sound like its replacing BP

[broken sigil]

At least it has proper classes and inheritance, makes me feel tiny bit better about it

[fringe sundial]

@pearl elk no, but if it compiles to verse, you could still edit the BP

its just that the compile button targets verse vm instead of unrealscript vm

[timber viper]

wait.. so upcoming new VM can both run BP and verse?

[fringe sundial]

it could

if it had nativization that converts bp to verse

[timber viper]

and get terrible perf

[pearl elk]

that just sounds odd though, isnt verse stand alone, like it doesnt need C++?

[timber viper]

i think reflection system matters, more than VM, right?

[fringe sundial]

verse will actually be able to run outside of unreal

[pearl elk]

so that would mean verse isnt replacing BP its replacing the C++ underneath lol

[fringe sundial]

also, remember that this is made by the haskell dudes

haskell has a full compiler AND a vm

basically has the 2 modes

[pearl elk]

I guess the verse VM is written in C++ for now

[terse wasp]

Well - we will get our hands on it next month.

[fringe sundial]

i doubt they have a true compiler because consoles dont let you JIT stuff

but maybe they have a "compile to cpp" option

like nativization

[timber viper]

nativizationception

[fringe sundial]

we know from the commits in ue5 that verse can export cpp headers

[timber viper]

bp -> verse -> cpp

tbh would be awesome 😅

[broken sigil]

It would just compile into different bytecode to target the new VM, right now it's already compiling into bytecode for the current vm

[terse wasp]

Lol - our inversion is magical

[pearl elk]

yeah but if it happens underneath and I dont see it, all I know is theres a new VM then the language isnt all that important tbh

[quiet grove]

uhh what do you mean here?

[timber viper]

does verse somehow transpile math notations into programming language

[fringe sundial]

holy fuck WHAT

[broken sigil]

I just don't see verse getting widespread adoption especially outside UE, let's be real, there are better languages

[quiet grove]

oh just when i was warming up to this

[fringe sundial]

so you can have "even" as type or stuff like ranged ints

[pearl elk]

I think its more about whats formally taught, one of the reasons Epic stuck with C++ was because people know it and theres a steady stream of qualified people. With Verse Epic is going to have to spend large to train alot of programmers

[regal pecan]

"This is wildly undecidable in general, but the Verifier does its best."
Oh good.

[fringe sundial]

no,m they did cpp because its what the engine is written in

[timber viper]

confusion

[pearl elk]

pretty much what they didnt want to do with C++

[primal summit]

but everything's an int in memory

[quiet grove]

what, help computer, help

[fringe sundial]

what makes this super interesting

is that this thing is beyond bleeding edge

we are talking fresh off the papers new research

thats why they are publishing research papers on it

[pearl elk]

arnt we always?

[fringe sundial]

last researchy language was rust

rust was highly researchy due to the novel stuff with the borrowcheck

[regal pecan]

I'm reading bleeding edge discord messages, hot off the presses

[fringe sundial]

since rust... basically nothing

other than toys

[broken sigil]

I absolutely hate it

[fringe sundial]

like for example Zig is boring as fuck and isnt even mathematically sound

Go is boring as fuck

[pearl elk]

Rust actually has working examples, last I read Linux is adopting Rust into its core

[fringe sundial]

verse hasnt released yet

@broken sigil this sort of funny type shit lets you do things like limit a function to only receive ints between 0 and 5 in range

[broken sigil]

Which is not worth doing for a language that's new and doesn't have a widespread use

[fringe sundial]

and will be validated at compile time

[timber viper]

almost everyone hates it meanwhile vblanco and laura gets hyped
our programming knowledge is not enough to understand the magic behind it ig

[fringe sundial]

like if you are calling that function without any sort of branch/check to see if the int is in range, then it will fail compile

the same with stuff like nullable vs nonnullable objects

no longer time to write "is valid" ever

99% of your functions would just be "notnull actor"

[pearl elk]

They could have easily announced a successor to uscript back then but they pushed C++ all these years and now if Verse runs on C++ then whats the point if you can already write C++

[regal pecan]

every two years 90% of casually made verse scripts will fail, never to be maintained again

[terse wasp]

Look - all I need to know:

Should I or shouldn't I be excited?

Okay. Hype mode

[pearl elk]

yeah the alternative aint much better

[fringe sundial]

it also aparently automultithreads

given that unreal cpp side cant multithread... big thing

yes

thats what the transactional memory stuff is for

[pearl elk]

we'll see shall we

[timber viper]

rewrite transform system in verse?

[fringe sundial]

and this is a lot bigger than "just a unreal script lang"

its possible if it works well its going to be the next haskell

or rust

[pearl elk]

its vaporware until I see something functional

[terse wasp]

It is functional 🥁

[fringe sundial]

remember they got basically the absolute dream team of programming language mathematicians and researchers to build it

[pearl elk]

so they say, but they say alot of things 😉

[broken sigil]

I have a feeling the community is gonna be very divided on this, I can see large portion hating it and some liking it

[quiet grove]

is haskell used for anything other than writing papers about haskell?

[fringe sundial]

yes

not much tho

XD

[pearl elk]

yeah the only people who can write it, it seems 😛

[fringe sundial]

because haskell is harder to program than this

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/phased-array-phased-array-radar-interference-constructive-interference-radar-gif-22605955

[broken sigil]

That's cool but it also could have been easily built into a c style language

[fringe sundial]

how

[pearl elk]

I know Egyptologists who can write ancient languages, doesnt mean I understand it

[quiet grove]

Haskell: We love to see undergrads suffer.

[fringe sundial]

like, this sort of advanced type fuckery means you will be able to have preconditions and postconditions on functions

and have those be verified

one of the main reasons haskell is popular is because its aggresive type system prevents a lot of errors

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/shocked-haskell-star-trek-the-next-generation-mind-blown-gif-23507466

[fringe sundial]

rust got a bunch of things from that

[pearl elk]

Its one of those awesome academic things where its a great thought experiment but they never tested anything outside the clean room

[fringe sundial]

and this goes "way beyond" it

fortnite creative betatesters are using it right now

[pearl elk]

so you say

[timber viper]

i think laura also mentioned haskell can end up way faster than c++ in some specific areas

[pearl elk]

but sorry I dont trust you 🙂

[soft night]

who want rust on browser https://servo.org/

[broken sigil]

That's the worrying part, I've seen enough papers and code written by researchers that I don't think that's a good thing

[terse wasp]

MonsOlympus vs vblanco

Gonna have to go with Victor on this one 😅

[pearl elk]

I take my information direct from Epic employees only

[fringe sundial]

haskell runs at cpp speed, the issue is with how it deals with memory

cpp has manual memory so you can do stuff better

[terse wasp]

This is how I feel too. But Tim's involvement gives me hope.

[fringe sundial]

but if you have for example, lets say, a program that takes a CSV and parses it then runs some math, haskell is going to parity with cpp

@broken sigil timmy has been planning this for 20 years aparently

the transactional memory system he has written it himself

[timber viper]

i wonder if graph theory has something to do with verse. he was also writing that stuff a year ago

[pearl elk]

https://tenor.com/view/the-x-files-i-want-to-believe-trust-issues-trust-gif-5016443

[fringe sundial]

not graph theory, the transactional memory stuff

where you can "pack" some logic to be run as a transaction and it has a system that validates it goes well through threads

if verse does that, it will be the first

[soft night]

mons want t obelieve in haskell aliens species to be real

[fringe sundial]

to ever have a transactional system like that built in

[broken sigil]

I guess we'll see how it will turn out but I don't have my hopes too high

[terse wasp]

Supposed to be end of next month to try it out more or less

[pearl elk]

Id rather be pleasantly surprised than severely disappointed

[broken sigil]

What about ide support 🤔

[terse wasp]

Probably an extension in vscode

[timber viper]

it has its own editor

[deep copper]

does notepad count

[pearl elk]

all the ides will support it*

[broken sigil]

Oh dear lord please no

[timber viper]

like roblox luau editor thingy

[turbid spindle]

:question: are blueman and MonsOlympus siblins?
:8ball: Concentrate and ask again.

[pearl elk]

*once those companies embrace the verse

[deep copper]

not like they have a choice, epic is releasing a big language after all

with all the hype

[broken sigil]

On paper*

[pearl elk]

editor written in slate 😉

[deep copper]

is slate bad?

[pearl elk]

if you sleep on it yes, if you wanna chop some food, not that bad

[broken sigil]

No but I would rather not have another ide

[pearl elk]

but the launcher works so well lol

they need to rewrite the launcher in verse

[soft night]

one to have own ide is too isolated from the world

[fringe sundial]

vscode plugin is the most likely

i mean

thats vscode

[broken sigil]

True

[timber viper]

one of the devs mentioned about custom text editor on twitter earlier

[soft night]

i uninstalled VS code

[broken sigil]

I wouldn't be surprised if Rider gets support for it early too

[terse wasp]

They said they would support it back when I asked during the closed testing of Rider for UE

[timber viper]

and this is how first time BM criticized Rider

[pearl elk]

so many electrons

[soft night]

some say haskell be rip when forttrannite comes

[timber viper]

i guess haskell has some zealost similar to C zealots

thats what keeps haskell alive anyway

[soft night]

Cobol to rule them all

[fringe sundial]

haskell has its uses

its 100% worthless for games

but for business logic or parsers is really really good

[broken sigil]

Well I mean the only way I'm gonna give Verse a chance is if I don't have to open another ide for it

[timber viper]

not even vscode?

[pearl elk]

do I really need to learn a 10th programming language

[terse wasp]

I'll give any language a chance to avoid using C++

[soft night]

https://www.matecdev.com/img/Fortran_code.png

that is fortran

[timber viper]

i want to do everything in BP and make any* magical nativizer optimize it for me...

[regal pecan]

Ideal IDE: Yell profanity at chatGPT and get code.

[pearl elk]

why dont we just use AI to turn our own short hand into assembly directly

[broken sigil]

Tbf my job is barely 10% doing gameplay stuff so either way I won't be touching verse much

[pearl elk]

why bother with all the intermediate languages

[broken sigil]

Didn't they say no bools...

[regal pecan]

So how do you do that without bools

[broken sigil]

Since when is removing bools a good idea

🥲

[timber viper]

tbh this makes less sense then what slides explained 😅

[bleak remnant]

Now you can use uint8

[pearl elk]

those are states 😛

[bleak remnant]

Nobody liked my joke 🙃

[regal pecan]

Are you sure it was a joke?

[broken sigil]

Stop, I'll start liking it even less

[pearl elk]

but what is null... aaaaghhh

[regal pecan]

GameStart^ : false?```

[soft night]

Foools hope to remove the bool

[fringe sundial]

the slides dont say bools dont exist

its more like bools dont need to exist in the language

bools can then be defined in userland by having it be "an integer tthat is either 0 or 1"

essentially

if branches work without bools

[regal pecan]

f(onstart):=dontstart

[soft night]

(open, closed) doorClosed

[pearl elk]

f(nevergonna):=giveyouup

[regal pecan]

I thoroughly expect that to happen.

[soft night]

(close, opened)DoorOpened

[regal pecan]

x```
returns x or returns x=x?

[pearl elk]

bit array

[soft night]

some say there is no laura its just lara

[terse wasp]

When this server inevitably gets a #verse channel. We should ping BM in there on occasion.

[soft night]

verse is a lie there is only xVerse

[pearl elk]

Laura Croft: Verses of Meta

but would it have cogs

[broken sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/booty-rub-smiling-massage-gif-14703370

[pearl elk]

oh yay another channel I dont have any time to read lol

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/water-animation-gif-16120206

[pearl elk]

Ive already escaped C++, I just stop using UE 😮

[terse wasp]

#lounge message

[pearl elk]

I have monads

[soft night]

mons use now gobot t

[pearl elk]

Ive been learning other things though, got stuck into python and updating my JavaScript knowledge

my goal is to use simple substitution cyphers so I dont have to write code for UE at all

[soft night]

Gobotts

[pearl elk]

most of what we do is boilerplate, game design isnt overly creative tbh since we use well established gameplay loops, etc

[soft night]

mons could just use blueprints

[pearl elk]

nah same issues as C++ really

thankfully Epic did a great job on the gameframework update

[soft night]

see blueprints also can seen as bluemannyprints

[terse wasp]

Doesn't one of the slides show that?

One sec - I need to pull it back up

[soft night]

how much you will pay to use verse?

[fringe sundial]

no, they say that types are a function that basically returns true for the stuff that validates it

so types actually sound much more like cpp template Concepts

where if the "code" fails then its not that type

[soft night]

there is no bool so there is no prosents

what if verse use crypto and nft?

everything

[pearl elk]

I wonder if verse has chorus'

[terse wasp]

Hmm - I guess I didn't see a concrete example. Thought I did. I was thinking this though.

[soft night]

welcome to C# durox

[pearl elk]

Unreal Terny

[terse wasp]

https://tenor.com/bGtaq.gif

[foggy path]

https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/318659577_660310455836140_6274725414848488039_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=tfVrJ2u8QQ0AX9ycet0&_nc_ht=scontent-arn2-1.xx&oh=00_AfB6WRlrzRorQnaEvZERCoqjRdUUbofSsi-BTm6i-8mhFw&oe=639A932F

Saw this posted on FB The Apogee Museum, a letter Tim sent to Scott Miller of Apogee around the time Wolf3D came out

[pearl elk]

Look at the quality paper

Did you call the number?

Anyone see the typo?

[regal pecan]

Nukum?

[broken sigil]

I left, had kids, grew a beard and #lounge is still talking about verse 😅

[pearl elk]

You see sonny back when I was a lad Epic released this new fandangle language called verse

[quiet grove]

You can totally define bools using their new type thing though? Maybe you talked about this

[regal pecan]

Not sure if that means 'no booleans' or 'conditionals don't use booleans'

I've only dabbled with javascript so that sounds perfectly normal.

[broken sigil]

Yes, rocket league, let me just guess what your "amazing" means instead of having numbers

[terse wasp]

At least 4

[pearl elk]

Amazing is true

Laura + beard is false

[terse wasp]

If they do eventually make BP compile to verse vm - wonder why have two? 🤔

BP will always be better for asset references though 😅

[pearl elk]

Well if they get it wrong theres always Reverse

[terse wasp]

I'm not holdin' my breath for something like that to be honest.

[broken sigil]

Asset refs by unique IDs when?

[cursive crypt]

Laura is inspired about Verse

[soft night]

or verse comes laura exclusive

[cursive crypt]

New season finale

[soft night]

just a buck https://store.steampowered.com/app/400/Portal/

Steam

Portal

Portal™ is a new single player game from Valve. Set in the mysterious Aperture Science Laboratories, Portal has been called one of the most innovative new games on the horizon and will offer gamers hours of unique gameplay.

Price

$0.99

Recommendations

98053

Metacritic

90

▶ Play video

[cursive crypt]

They give or they want?

[quasi mantle]

Old Valve games have been charged for cheap these days

Valve already making money elsewhere their old games might as well be free.

[noble plaza]

Practically no one in India would be fluent in Sanskrit, it's like the Indian subcontinent's Latin.

[fringe sundial]

indians know english so you dont ever need to translate to an indian lang

chinese people on the other hand are terrible at english

english + chinese + spanish is definitely going to get you a huge amount of the world

[noble plaza]

Not always, depends on the area. In general it's probably not worth localising because you'd need to do like 10+ languages to get significant coverage

Also Chinese is not a language, Mandarin or Cantonese is 😛

[chrome gull]

India has like 1972472482 languages

so you'd probably want to stick to just Hindi

[quasi mantle]

As for Chinese, I currently left it out from my spreadsheet because I still have no idea how the games are being distributed there, and how China and related countries handle Mature 17+ material

Even though I know anime style game flourishes in CJK regions

As for India, I thought Indians who know about games are likely to know English anyway

[noble plaza]

IME many Indians will learn English and claim it for almost a prestige thing, but actual grasp will vary a lot. Colloquialism and more modern usage especially so.

[fringe sundial]

chinese players use vpns to buy western games

but its a sort of dodgy distribution. fine for Steam, but not for consoles

[timber viper]

i dont think many chinese has access to modern hardware too

[noble plaza]

Many people (at least in Delhi) won't string together a sentence without at least a few English words, most likely nouns. You can sort of understand a lot just by filling in the blanks lol.
I speak (or at least did, haven't tried for a while) Hindi so that's an assumption at least.

[fringe sundial]

dont try lumping the chinese stuff with japanese, they dont quite have the same cultural norms

[timber viper]

i remember some mmo games keep 2010 graphics to let chinese players play

[quasi mantle]

This I already have sorted lol

[fringe sundial]

you also might not want the chinese in your game

if its an online one

[noble plaza]

You're shipping people gaming rigs? 😛

[fringe sundial]

chinese are the single most cheatery people in the world

by a mile

[quasi mantle]

It's a single player game, even mods will be welcome

[fringe sundial]

the same chinese that is running dodgy shit to VPN past the firewall to play your game isnt going to be slowed down by an anticheat

[quasi mantle]

No, but scaling down UE5 to fit with low settings and lowspec

[noble plaza]

Don't get yourself banned @fringe sundial

[quasi mantle]

Cheating isn't a problem when the game is entirely single-player

[fringe sundial]

ye for SP games no issues, more sales so all good

[timber viper]

are you trying to give them gmod 2 or something

[fringe sundial]

in a pvp game you want to keep it off the chinese all you can

they will ruin it

look at what happened at pubg

[timber viper]

dont they have their own server limited for china tho

[fringe sundial]

and ark/conan where they used to band together and kill everyone without chiense letters in names instantly

thats recent

[quasi mantle]

No, but facilitating player creativity sure won't hurt

[fringe sundial]

the chinese ruined the game for a long time until pubg devs found a way to mitigate stuff a bit

[noble plaza]

I just remembered the "China number 1!" video haha

[quasi mantle]

Also people have modded RPGs even if it's just model swaps

[fringe sundial]

at one point in pubg, 99% of all cheaters were chinese

probably still is that stat

actual true stat btw, its not speculation or similar

it improevd by using heuristics to shove the chinese to cheat against each other into their own servers

[quasi mantle]

Think of the mod support more like what community did to Bethesda RPGs

[timber viper]

in UE its almost impossible to swap models

at least thats what i know

[quasi mantle]

Underground way, it is difficult, but giving official support by mod kit makes it easier.

[noble plaza]

Not Rogan man, it's all about Lex Fridman now. Guy gets super cool guests all the time, but always bugs them to talk about Musk, it's bizarre.

[fleet tangle]

Lex has like no personality. 😦

[quasi mantle]

However, UE5 completely broke the old UGC plugins, so I'm waiting on how Epic handles it after Fortnite Creative 2

[noble plaza]

I like it, lets the interviewers do the talking. Sometimes he takes up tens of minutes at a time just rambling and I'm like bro get to the interview, not here anime exposition

He's a corpo simp though, an weaponises naivete for whatever reason

[fleet tangle]

I watched a few of his videos. He seems competent, but when he talks to the interviewees he sounds like he's an uninformed journalist going through the motions with only basic understanding, constantly referring to his notes. He's not charismatic.

[broken sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/choke-choking-david-stern-choked-up-drink-water-gif-12552677

[noble plaza]

Depends on the interview, he geeked out with Guido and Carmack for example, but he interviews a very wide range.
I believe he crowd sources (some) questions, so the notes would be for that

[fleet tangle]

Carmack was one of the interviews I actually watched.

[noble plaza]

But I get it, he just seems uh... neurotypical? Same way Zuck comes off

[fleet tangle]

He did not seem anywhere on Carmack's level

It kinda made me feel like he was high during the interview.

[noble plaza]

It would be a waste for a programmer at that level to run a podcast 😄

[fleet tangle]

Carmack wasn't talking about anything particularly complex, though.

[noble plaza]

Yeah fair, the Guido one I was digging because work subjects me to Python 😦

[fleet tangle]

Carmack was just his charismatic self and Lex was awkward.

Heh. I'm not sure I'll ever learn python. Hopefully I'll just skip to the next fad. Maybe Verse?! 😄

[noble plaza]

Python's great for scripting. When you can't keep the project in your head, or have lots of dependencies, good fucking luck bud

Imagine Verse becomes a fad for Web3 or something, which they seem to be pushing for whatever reason

[fleet tangle]

Because it's so meta.

[noble plaza]

Metaverse scale programming languages

[quasi mantle]

I used Python for scripting automation stuff lol
Batch is way too limiting

[fleet tangle]

I have a series of batch scripts for updating and cleaning perforce from the cl. It's good stuff.

[broken sigil]

I'm so sick of hearing about metaverse and I'm was excited for it at first but there is metaeverything now

[noble plaza]

It's got the same energy as DeFi/web3 for me lol.
Just people excited about... nothing tangible or seemingly useful to customers

[quasi mantle]

Nobody has been able to explain Web3 in plain English as of now

Even one in #career-chat a while ago

At least with internet as a whole you can simplify it as sending mails but faster and takes no paper

[broken sigil]

as far as I care it's useless

[fleet tangle]

So what is Web3... in not plain English?

[noble plaza]

It's got one use I can see - getting Epic to make sick tools like MetaSounds that lowers barrier to entry for making games. Eventually every plugin will be Meta Something though lol

[noble plaza]

In theory, torrent meets HTTP. Instead of central servers, decentralised web browsing and hosting is my understanding

Of course, it seems to mostly be crypto scams at the moment so 🤷‍♂️

[quasi mantle]

its an idea for a new web, one that might be a decentralized web based on blockchain, the other being an immersive web (what is referred to poetically as the metaverse), or a combination of both

According to someone in #career-chat a while ago

That's the non plain english explanation

[regal pecan]

A phrase with two contradictory ideas that may or may not be combined. Fantastic.

[noble plaza]

poetically

[quasi mantle]

Source: #career-chat message

I mean, by this point Web3 is might as well yet another turbo encabulator

[fleet tangle]

The web as an nft?

[regal pecan]

I haven't heard much about the 'metaverse' (or how much of that phrase is owned specifically by facebook/'s parent company).

[noble plaza]

Wish I were you haha

[quasi mantle]

||also ICYMI turbo encabulator is just a recurring bullshit term||

Hold the phone

Wasn't Mastodon is "hosting your own server"?

The one that touted to be Twitter~~/LinkedIn~~ alternative?

[regal pecan]

Defeats the point of a social media franchise, no?

looks at Discord

[quasi mantle]

I mean, it seems to me that Mastodon to game industry programmer is what LinkedIn to corpo workers

[fleet tangle]

Why not just use LinkedIn as a game industry programmer?

[noble plaza]

Game industry is special

[quasi mantle]

At least according to benui's site

[fleet tangle]

Like discord then, if it were distributed.

Or something.

[broken sigil]

🤔

[regal pecan]

hissss

[quasi mantle]

To me the description and content seemed like decentralized LinkedIn

Though granted I'm almost a complete antithesis of "professional" mannerism

[regal pecan]

If you run your own server and the content and account names are not cross pollinated among servers, is it really decentralized or just multiply centralized?

[noble plaza]

Just boast about how much you like being exploited for profit, claim work is your life and your coworkers are your family.

Write made up stories.

That are probably not true.

But then end it with a takeaway!

That screams loser.

Agree?

https://www.reddit.com/r/LinkedInLunatics/top/?t=year

The satirical stff is gold if you've spent much time on it though

[quasi mantle]

"As a corporate simp I agree with this statement @noble plaza Life should be dedicated to the office because they are your new family until you suffer mental health issues and discharged without notice. Don't forget to boast about "good memories" while posting photo of you in that time wasting mandatory team building event."

[noble plaza]

You're forgetting the spacing.

We have no attention spans.

Share if you agree!

[quasi mantle]

Also yeah I hate team building bullcrap so much, particularly since I'm rather introvert. Those are the worst.
"We wasted company money on this team building event, join it or else you'll not getting paid this month."

[noble plaza]

This is one of my favourites actually lol, so good

Team building doesn't usually affect your pay 😄 I used to play StarCraft at the old co

[quasi mantle]

In my past works it does, and it's not fun.

I'd rather go to anime and game(dev) conventions, have fun geeking out, and made new friends along the way

[quasi mantle]

Corporate reinventing break time, what an astounding innovation!

[noble plaza]

That sounds extremely bizarre, and would be illegal for a lot of reasons here at least

[noble plaza]

what gets me is the company is called Just Eat, and the employees don't have time to eat lol

But usually team building stuff is during the workday, so it's not eating up your free time.
Partner's team building stuff bleeds over into personal time sometimes though, so maybe cushy software jobs are a bit nicer with that

[quasi mantle]

Yeah, companies are pretty much unhinged in my country (and I think to some extent other Asian regions), they can get away with employee mistreatment, unpaid crunch, low paychecks, and mandatory extrovert events

[noble plaza]

Yeah that sucks, feel sorry for you bud. Usually team building is not mandatory, and you're playing games or table tennis or whatever with a few teammates, that's about it.

Making it mandatory defeats the whole purpose of it, I feel

https://tenor.com/view/marshawn-lynch-interview-im-here-so-i-wont-get-fined-football-player-seattle-seahawks-gif-16070180

[quasi mantle]

Yeah, with no regulations on them, it's hard to find new jobs that doesn't suck for introverts and pays well.

At least I now know what to avoid when running my own studio in the future

[timber viper]

it's hard to find new jobs that doesn't suck for introverts and pays well.
isnt programming literally this

remote job, freelance, yolo

[ebon tartan]

I'm looking for remote software engineering work where the codebase and devops aren't a dumpster fire.

Which is very relevant to "doesn't suck"

[noble plaza]

The last part is impossible :)))

[ebon tartan]

Hahaha

No!

[noble plaza]

Code was either written by you and within the last 3 months, or it's dogshit.

[red pewter]

I still think you would do really well in a remote position

[ebon tartan]

I believe others can write great code that lasts, but it seems uncommon that this is prioritized in most organizations; technical debt just collects.

[timber viper]

last year i was switching between random small indies for AI jobs, ai pays ok and you build the system since most indies has no idea about how a project wide solution should look like

[ebon tartan]

I just don't want 70 minute builds and flaky performance tests.

[timber viper]

this year i just worked for a random nft based project once and then decided to take a break

[ebon tartan]

NFT eh?

[red pewter]

hope they paid you in real money

[timber viper]

i just did the ai part and took some $$

meanwhile they were hiring some weird amount of people to build a server

and they made me sign nda for the server rather than the game project

and when i told them about this they didnt care

it was like "only server matters"

i was like.. "ok"

[red pewter]

I guess the idea was to use the game to advertise their backend service

[timber viper]

they market the game instead though

i believe it was a rookie attempt of nft + gamedev hype

[ebon tartan]

I have to Google "Lyra," I've heard it so many times in this Slack recently.

Lyra Starter Game, ah I see.

[noble plaza]

My work is moving to microservices (allegedly), so fingers crossed that's better lol

Own the shit out of small projects means teams can prioritise reasonable codebases, vs huge ones where no one owns anything in particular

[timber viper]

the ones you use fsm and composable gas together in it?

[ebon tartan]

IMO microservices are a strategy to please developers and their workflow, not the system quality.

[noble plaza]

No, baby backends

[ebon tartan]

Not necessarily bad though.

Just makes deploying cross-cutting features a lot harder.

[noble plaza]

You get more granular scaling.

But a lot of issues as well

[timber viper]

yeah, the ones you use fsm and composable gas together in it

[noble plaza]

Trouble is we use Python so running the entire stack locally is impossible. If it was Go, it would just be like 10MB of binaries and done

• DBs

[noble plaza]

Corpo programmers will accidentally reinvent an FSM with extremely terrible glue code, but be oblivious to the term lol

Composable gas though, like water? It's just Hydrogen and Oxygen

[ebon tartan]

I'm geeking on this thing called TurboRepo, which stores a hashed build of every module in your project; so you never rebuild anything that hasn't changed.

[timber viper]

#cpp message

[ebon tartan]

Pretty kick ass for microservices, that all share a repository ('monorepo').

[noble plaza]

No idea what's going on there

[ebon tartan]

Everything is composable apparently

[noble plaza]

Ah yeah I was wondering if it was for Monorepos. You could kinda do it with folder hashes as well, it's not too difficult.

[timber viper]

jippmokk' state of art microservices

[noble plaza]

Or git submodules to have a in-between for monorepo and billions of repos

[noble plaza]

https://tenor.com/view/the-princess-bride-inigo-montoya-meaning-are-you-sure-of-that-gif-7536490

PS my game dev laptop constantly scrambles letters when I'm typing fast, as in the letters come in at at a random order. It's not user issue because my other keyboard/ laptops are perfectly fine... FML

How can Asus not even build a working keyboard, laptops 20 years ago nailed it

[ebon tartan]

Ooof.

Lol @ user issue.

"System failure: Bad human."

[noble plaza]

Like I've been typing for almost 2 decades, pretty sure I can punch keys in the right order 😄

[timber viper]

bad human?

[noble plaza]

PEBKAC

[ebon tartan]

Bad, bad human.

[unreal ether]

put the internet of things in a monorepo

watch it burn

[noble plaza]

No you don't understand, the frontend and backend teams should not be able to see each other's code. No one ever needs to look beyond their 500 LoC island, and reading other people's code is a security nightmare really. Cross-team knowledge segregation! So hot.

[unreal ether]

but what if frontend wants to pretend to be a backend dev for a day

or vice versa

[noble plaza]

Oh and fuck everything about server side rendering. Goodbye ability to debug by using the inspector panel 😢

[noble plaza]

Don't be silly, fullstack devs are unicorns

@sand oxide you were the very last person I expected to hear positive words from about Verse.

Next thing I'm predicting you getting a Rider tattoo at this rate.

[broken sigil]

On the other hand seeing Verse made me appreciate C# a bit more

[inland oriole]

👀

[noble plaza]

I dunno, the syntax is not C-like for sure, but there's about a million C-likes.
The people working on it inspire some confidence, so I'll give it a fair crack before forming an opinion. Reminds me of my time with Elm though, somewhat

The := confusion/loathing is interesting though, coming from Go (and recently Python too)

[inland oriole]

Completely random question but anyone ever feel like game dev just isn’t the thing for you? Might just also be my brain at 1:40 am but it’s recently been so difficult to find fun in it or get my self to do anything related to it 😦

[fleet tangle]

Is that the equivalent of = ?

[noble plaza]

Yes, all the time to be honest. Mostly as a solo dev, the breadth of everything you have to tackle is insane, and it can get a bit isolated.

Joined a team recently and that has been super helpful, nice to see other things ticking along even if you get stuck on something. + collaborating and planning solutions together is nice

[noble plaza]

In Go no, it's declare + infer type + assign.

var a int
a = 10
// same as
var a int = 10
// same as
a := 10

In Python it's like a scoped variable thing.

a: int = get_some_int()
if a:
  print(a)

# is the same as
if a := get_some_int():
  print(a)

[quiet grove]

I'm still trying to work out how = can be assignment and the comparison operator. e.g.

int:x;
x = 5;
if (x = 5) then ...

[inland oriole]

Maybe that I should look at something like that again. I used to work in a small team which was fun, although in Unity but perhaps that is what I’m missing currently.

[quiet grove]

You can declare and assign in one with x := 5 or you can separate to int:x; and then later x = 5;

[noble plaza]

Are the variables immutable? If so, past the first one it would be a comparison. Don't like the ambiguity though

Or maybe you can't assign in a conditional, which is pretty uh, magical

[quiet grove]

yes they're effectively const once assigned

[noble plaza]

The rough thing about game dev is it can be ages till you get the dopamine hit of tangible progress. If you're feeling burnt out though, take a break and re-assess if you want to continue. Maybe half-complete something and note down what you were working on for an easy way back in 🙂

[noble plaza]

Hmm wonder how static analysis of the language is going to handle this! Curious why they went with this approach, sure there's a reason for it

[noble plaza]

Ah so in conditionals you can't assign, interesting.
scrutinee and unified are interesting choice, but non-Haskellers aren't the target market for this I guess.

[fleet tangle]

Easy, assignment doesn't work inside if statements!

(with that syntax)

[quiet grove]

we're designing a brand-new language from scratch, from an ivory tower, and it already has weird rules, neat

[noble plaza]

I guess it eliminates the bug where you accidentally mistype == to =, and wreck a variable instead of comparing it. IDEs do scream at you for it though

[fleet tangle]

Technically it makes it easier to understand, I suppose? But, yes, it's a pile of shit.

[quiet grove]

it's a language written by people who love haskell, written for people who have never used haskell 👍

[fleet tangle]

I mean in c++ you can just do whole loads of code inside an if condition.

[noble plaza]

The other solution to that though is if (num == 5) => if (5 == num), which I find a bit unintuitive though

[fleet tangle]

That's not good design.

[quiet grove]

yeah part of me wonders how much of these slides that say "this is possible" are actually used by people who use the language.

Perl is a horrendous language if you use all its features, but if you write good Perl it's actually not bad.

[noble plaza]

With FNC, it's not even written for people who program necessarily 🤔 There will probably be a lot of churn in the early stages

[quiet grove]

What's FNC?

[fleet tangle]

I did like perl. I used to just write oop-based irc bots when learning new languages. Was very useful.

[noble plaza]

Fortnite Creative (2), likely the first time people can use Verse

[quiet grove]

oh

[fleet tangle]

They need to make it as simple as possible. And it just isn't.

[broken sigil]

I wouldn't be surprised if the final Verse ends up being drastically different after the initial test runs and feedback

[noble plaza]

I don't think so, simple languages already exist - Go as an example. Productive, powerful, game scripting languages designed for UE first and foremost, not so much

[broken sigil]

because I highly doubt people will love the current version

[fleet tangle]

It's made for noobs. It doens't have to lack features, but those features need to make sense. You shouldn't have to use complicated operators if you don't have to.

(as an example)

[noble plaza]

It feels like Steve Vai - he's the guitar player appreciated by other guitar players for technical excellence, even if the end result isn't something particularly palatable

[broken sigil]

yeah it does

[noble plaza]

Noobs don't have the same preconceptions about programming you do though, and we can't unlearn everything we know in a jiffy to parse the example code

[fleet tangle]

Noobs shouldn't have to know the difference between =, == and := for instance.

Or the difference between . and ->

[noble plaza]

But I agree, there will likely be some changes to simplify things over time. Maybe the slides are out of date, I heard from an Epic dude here that Verse was being iterated on quite rapidly still

[broken sigil]

if anyone starts programming on a language like Verse, it's gonna be extremely difficult for them to learn C++
Like more difficult than starting with no experience

[quiet grove]

So according to the slides, it's posible to assign (bind?) a value to a variable after it is used. Obviously with compilers this is possible to solve, but as a human this can get really horrendous really fast. So is it just like Perl in that you would never use it? Imagine you see an if statement that uses num_created_players on line 43, and then within the same function, on line 7234 you finally assign a value to num_created_players... what's the benefit?

x:int; y:int;
if (x=0) then y=1 else y=2;
x=7;

[noble plaza]

What about people who learn in BP?

[broken sigil]

Verse throws the C concepts that so many languages are based on out the window

[broken sigil]

All BP ideas follow the standard C++ concepts so C++ might actually make more sense to people that used BPs first

it is clear that BP was designed by C people

[noble plaza]

If assignment is a one-time thing, removing the order of operation dependence does fix bugs like uninitialised variables being accessed. Spaghetti as fuck though

[fleet tangle]

Should just make it that all varaibles need to be assigned a value at all times. Or it's a compilation fail.

[noble plaza]

Think they were stressing lazy evaluation a lot though

[fleet tangle]

Even assigning a variable to something lazily is still assigning it to something.

[noble plaza]

Yeah getting used to that is going to cook my brain. I'm excited.

[fleet tangle]

I would just fire anyone who did this.

Code may be designed to allow stupid things, but it doesn't mean you have to use it stupidly.

[noble plaza]

I've done some DevOps stuff, and it sounds kinda similar to IaaC tools where you declare the end state of your production, and the tool figures out how to get your current one to there

[fleet tangle]

That example is stupid. There's no reason to do it like that. It just makes the code harder to read and maintain.

Even if it's not imperative, you can just place the x=7 above the condition and it would make more sense to everyone.

[noble plaza]

Hard to demonstrate language features in small snippets that are also ergonomic TBH

[broken sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/doubt-press-x-la-noire-meme-x-button-gif-19259237

Templates don't involve so much weird stuff as 2 lines of Verse do
Templates make sense, this doesn't, this is just inventing solutions to problems that don't exist

That still makes more sense to me than dumb concepts in Verse
Verse is not really the language anyone was dreaming of when they announced it, it's yet another cool language on paper, of the billion we already have and flopped

and that's perfectly fine

but at least one positive thing is that we are getting a faster VM

and that's about the only thing I'm excited about with Verse

don't think the point of C++ is to have safer pointers

Verse is not the way to go for a game scripting language, that's a fact
I will go back to this comment once it's released and when we see what the general public thinks

[quiet grove]

I mean it's not just an imperative thing, it's generally a cause and effect, set up the things before you use them, reality sort of thing.

That sort of makes sense

[broken sigil]

People also seem to love Haskell but look at its use, it's nowhere to be seen

[fleet tangle]

It's the c++ conspiracy (conspiracy++)

[noble plaza]

Also for all the concern about this being Haskell II, SPJ was very clear that he was brought in to bring Tim's vision to life for the most part, and that Tim had been planning toward this language for a long time.

Seems the Skookum roots were abandoned wholesale though. The further in the presentation I go the more ambitious and far-fetched this seems.

Monad is the magic word that makes you seem like 200x cooler though 😦

We can do the usual “run functions backwards” thing

Ah yeah I do that like a few times a day for sure

[broken sigil]

Verse might win an award for the language no one asked for

as long as Verse is optional, I don't have to look it at it and we get the benefits of the new VM then I don't care

[terse wasp]

Tim being involved is the main reason I doubt this take tbh. The dude has been involved in game creation for 30+ years (for better or worse) and in general, his ideas stick. If anyone knows what would benefit gamedev scripting, I'd wager it'd be him. I know I'm coming off as a Tim fanboy, but he's up there as a titan of the field. Even Carmack commented on how UE1 was able to achieve things that Quake couldn't.

[broken sigil]

The thing is I like Tim but this idea was not it, people with 30+ years of experience can still make mistakes
He's the same guy that's pushing the whole metaverse thing too

[noble plaza]

Also first release won't have all the CS fanciness

[terse wasp]

Fair - but I think he sees the Metaverse as stuff like Fortnite/Roblox/Core, etc...

Not necessarily like what Facebook was peddling

[noble plaza]

Oh god the yellow boxes

Oh no

[terse wasp]

Well - it kind of is already working out. Roblox is ridiculously popular at the moment. Same with Fortnite. I mean, Fortnite broke records when they did that Travis Scott concert or w/e.

So it's kind of already here in some incarnation

Oh - yeah, no interopt

Oh - yeah, that part....yeah...........

[broken sigil]

but that's not really the definition of metaverse to me

metaverse here is just a fancy marketing word

[noble plaza]

Metaverse to me seems to be IRL stuff being conducted through a boring MMO

And it will be a global interoperable thing, even if there are about 20000 disparate initiatives underway.

[terse wasp]

Oh - I whole heartily agree. I've never bought into the metaverse being like that. I see it as silo'd in the game itself. So pretty much a universe inside of a game. Literally like roblox honestly. Maybe where the games aren't selected by a website UI but you are an avatar in-game and you run around to in-game computers and select the game that way

[fleet tangle]

Have you seen second life?

It's stupidly popular in the doing irl stuff in a boring mmo field

Now that I like.

[broken sigil]

Roblox is probably the closest thing to Metaverse
VR chat probably too

[fleet tangle]

I like the title, not necessarily the implementation.

[noble plaza]

Daekesh confirmed Haskell lover, gotem

[fleet tangle]

I did like doing Haskell at uni.

[noble plaza]

The Haskell dude was so preachy I chose another subject haha

[fleet tangle]

It was never really shown to be useful for anything, though. It was just for exercises.

[broken sigil]

Cool on paper

I would love to be proven wrong about Verse but I guess time will tell

[terse wasp]

I hope it isn't expected to be written like this though. With the then & else indented

I want to say they did it like this to save space and for presentation purposes

[broken sigil]

what's the point of then there, just why

[fleet tangle]

Could be a typo.

[broken sigil]

but it has 0 reason to exist

yes lets make this syntax even more verbose, why not

the purpose of if is clear, then is completely useless

[terse wasp]

f(p:int, q:int) :int :=
   if (x=0)
    then
    {
      p=3;
      q=4;
    }
    else
    {
      p=232;
      q=913;
    }

Long form I guess. I just default opted for C#-style braces. Could also do Java style I guess

[broken sigil]

as far as I know this is supposed to be a scripting language, not C++

[fleet tangle]

In that format the 'then' seems superfluous.

[terse wasp]

Sure - but it does make it more readable for beginners as well.

[fleet tangle]

Tim did say it will be usable outside of Ue eventually.

[broken sigil]

sure, but it's still a scripting language

[terse wasp]

And I will try all of like one hour to get it integrated in Godot 😅

[broken sigil]

doesn't matter if it's UE only or not

[fleet tangle]

Well, no, the second {} would just be a separate scope not related to the if. That's why there's the else...

[noble plaza]

Kotlin (and I believe C# too) has something similar:

var result = when(number) {
    0 -> "Invalid number"
    1, 2 -> "Number too low"
    3 -> "Number correct"
    in 4..10 -> "Number too high, but acceptable"
    !in 100..Int.MAX_VALUE -> "Number too high, but solvable"
    else -> "Number too high"
}

[terse wasp]

I do enjoy some Kotlin ❤️

Makes Java usable

[broken sigil]

if already signals what it does, then is useless
else signals a new statement, it has a use

[noble plaza]

The multi-bool switch statements in my spaghetti C# were super handy too 🙂

[fleet tangle]

I disgree. I think the else provides a nice bit of descriptiveness.

[broken sigil]

^

[noble plaza]

Most of my if statements don't have corresponding else blocks, because early returns 🤷‍♂️

[fleet tangle]

If you just wanted to use a semi-colon, you might get confused between regular scopes and if/else scopes.

[broken sigil]

if already provides all the info necessary
Why even have if in the first place then?

[noble plaza]

But what about finally? 😄

[broken sigil]

but as far as I can see Verse is also forcing (), making then pointless

[noble plaza]

Hmm you haven't run into defer right? Not sure if non-Go languages have it

[broken sigil]

Seems more like extra rules for no reason

[fleet tangle]

I can see why then is nice, but the whole structure of c++ code being c conditional { // stuff } (with conditional being if or else) just looks good to me. It could be c if (...) then { /// stuff } and that'd be perfectly fine.

[noble plaza]

how?

Do you definite it in-line, or just once? Defer can be added on to conditionally

Oh right, I moreso used defer for operations that would asynchronously, like logging. DB cleanup and the likes was nice too though

Didn't know about ON_SCOPE_EXIT though, TY

UE5VerseCoro when?

[soft night]

https://tenor.com/view/code-works-code-not-working-error-scaler-create-impact-gif-24991578

[bleak remnant]

ok

[noble plaza]

Yeah moved to a DB connection manager over time, because other people kept forgetting to add one line lol

[soft night]

who called the verse name?

its lake someone cut metaverse name and it was zuck

[noble plaza]

Oh bro, there's like 8 hours of convo to read up on if you're waking up

[soft night]

drop verse there for doom

https://tenor.com/view/facebook-meta-facebook-metaverse-metaverse-gif-24712842

[noble plaza]

I wonder if Meta's metaverse lets you dial down your character's facial expressiveness.

[soft night]

Meta's verse language will take over the metaverse programming space

[noble plaza]

It's bound to be to Python or PHP what Carbon is to C++ 😬

[broken sigil]

I actually really want something like cpp2 to become a real thing

[bleak remnant]

You mean C#?

[broken sigil]

no, cpp2

https://github.com/hsutter/cppfront

[noble plaza]

CppFront?

[broken sigil]

yeah

[bleak remnant]

literally the first image