latest-updates

[ionic tusk]

anyone can teach me some hoi4 ?

[sour furnace]

I'm just gonna say that I and mainstream historians disagree with that statement as it is extremely reductive and this narrative reductionism is imposed upon us by foreigners who doesn't know anything about Indonesian history

[hollow coral]

no but you can watch tutorials

[ionic tusk]

i dont understand

😭

[hollow coral]

honestly just play the game and try to learn

[ashen beacon]

what do u need help w/

[hollow coral]

i never really watched the tutorials

[ionic tusk]

i mean i already learned how to naval invade and paratroop

[fresh cedar]

Yes, and know how many other trees in the game have reductive things? The US civil war is legit just Constitutionalists v Confederacy. Yet I don’t insult people that support it

Get a grip

[ionic tusk]

but in all games i cheat 😭

[ashen beacon]

play germany

go miltia only fr

and Just make good planes

win

[ionic tusk]

then what 😭

invade poland to get involved with the allies ?

[hollow coral]

well yeah?

[ionic tusk]

💀

[ashen beacon]

welll

you could always declare on poland first

manually justify

[ionic tusk]

"poland joined the allies"

😭

[ashen beacon]

that's b/c u have a faction

something like that

Just manually justify

[ionic tusk]

so wait

i delete axis

and just

[ashen beacon]

at 10% world tension I think the allies can guarentee

[ionic tusk]

justify war?

[ashen beacon]

a nation that does 15% causes a guarentee or smth

[hollow coral]

im sorry to interrup but this is irrelevant to the channel topic

[ashen beacon]

nah it is an update

i am updating his mind fr

[hollow coral]

nah but seriously

[ashen beacon]

alrighty let's go to #hoi4-general

[sour furnace]

Well, now, the main problem is, if more people acts like you do,the devs would be comfortable of not bothering to do their due diligence about the topics they're supposed to be researching, that lack of due diligence is made clear in this putrid dev diary.

[ashen beacon]

Join veting 1

[hollow coral]

i feel bad for Lily

i also sympathise with any indonesian that is dissapointed

[sour furnace]

Let us not justify ANYTHING about what the devs did so they're more motivated to be more thorough with their research

Other than that, I apologize for malding, that was unbecoming of me

[sour furnace]

Thank you.

[cosmic stag]

we need a Sturmtruppe battalion

[hollow coral]

not this again

[cosmic stag]

wdym

[fresh cedar]

It’s a game

See, the USA is in many games if not most in ways. So I’m used to it being represented in a multitude of ways. Indonesia is the complete opposite so I imagine that’s why it’s a big deal for you

[fresh cedar]

Again, don’t have to be nasty towards the devs. I gaurantee they’ll just end up ignoring you

They’re still people

[hollow coral]

ok but when does krasna awaken

[fresh cedar]

That’s what I wanna know 😂

<@&846894118219022336> Scam bot

[keen totem]

i actually wonder how many of these the mods have to get rid of on a daily basis

[sharp spade]

Never stop gambling

[gritty lava]

Casually asking for 12+ political paths

[keen totem]

something something

[hollow coral]

i hope japan got more releasable decisions

[drifting star]

Formable ?

[hollow coral]

absolutely massive

some people get too caught up with the political trees

[sour furnace]

@fresh cedar I'm sorry I wasn't familiar with your game

[drifting star]

Wish there were some formables

Or some representation of irrendendalist Indonesian movements

[crimson tartan]

this bro scared me so much

😭

[thick edge]

It’s a sign

[vague harbor]

talking like he owns paradox

[brittle venture]

soon...

[crimson tartan]

🫤

you guys know something

[still pewter]

Another focus tree focusing on width rather than depth?

[keen totem]

i need to look through this later it's a lot

generals generals

and portraits

[glossy inlet]

I hope it’s not like Norway where if you go one path you keep like 2 or 3 generals and that’s it

[keen totem]

def agree

[glossy inlet]

Seriously that need to fix that stuff for Norway and some other countries it’s annoying af

[keen totem]

in general, really sucks that some countries lack a lot of generals

another example being the phillippines

[glossy inlet]

Yeah I was playing them like 3 days ago and realized they had nothing

[sour furnace]

Yeah...pretty much

[still pewter]

Well the joint trees look good so I feel like being loyal (at first) might be the best way to go

Surely Siam will be better

Hopefully

[sharp spade]

It’s copium at this point

[fresh cedar]

Cold War HOI game LETS GOO

Jk

Sad that got cancelled

[fresh cedar]

They could easily combat this by making generals a cheap flat rate rather than make them like 100+ command power after a certain point

[still pewter]

just copy Manchuria's focus tree but remplace the names for a good DEI focus tree

[fresh cedar]

Should be like 20 permanent

[crimson tartan]

bro

[still pewter]

son

[glossy inlet]

I want them to show off the puppet tree as it was established that was the fascist tree

[drifting star]

Ask them idk

[glossy inlet]

People have and nothings been shown so beats me

[coral drift]

I was doing a live cover on my server's VC channel

Supersemar also attended it, and we're malding together there

[coral drift]

Amen
Hopefully it's not the final product

[keen totem]

feel this might actually be the first loyalist path id enjoy playing

[glossy inlet]

It’s actually shocking just how small the communist tree is considering it’s Indonesia

[keen totem]

devastating news

[keen totem]

they said they want the main focus of indonesia to be the actual revolution

[glossy inlet]

Fair but I feel like that then feel like Spain

[keen totem]

which i guess makes sense, but leaves me fearful that post-revolution content will be severely lacking

[glossy inlet]

Like after the revolution you’re just existing

[keen totem]

im afraid of it becoming another spain, where the actual war is fun then you just do nothing

[coral drift]

Okay, you finished the revolution by 1940 and hiring a literal schoolteacher as your field marshal (Sudirman before the Japanese invasion was a schoolteacher)

Now what?

[keen totem]

exactly what i mean

what is the goal of an independent indonesia?

exactly..?

they only said something about Tan Malaka being able to start communist revolutions in neighboring states and whatnot and puppet them

[coral drift]

And this is why there should be separate revolutions instead of using the 1945-49 one universally

One for PKI, one for Parindra, one for PSII

Then if they decided to organize elections instead of radicalizing, if PNI won Sukarno can lead

[keen totem]

there seems to be a lack of any fascist or monarchist path, at least from what ive seen

[coral drift]

(that's my plan for EIR anyway)

[glossy inlet]

Giving Indonesia a small commie path would’ve been like giving Hungary a small fascist path

[keen totem]

a little dissappointing, unless there's something i missed

[glossy inlet]

Fascist path is essentially just a Japanese puppet path

They said it but they were quite vague

[coral drift]

1930s Sukarno would eviscerate 1960s Sukarno

[keen totem]

unfortunate, but given this is kinda all (that ive seen at least) of a fascist indonesia, just seems a bit disappointing

[coral drift]

It's "Kebangkitan" mod all over again

[keen totem]

i take it that his views shifted significantly throughout those few decades

[glossy inlet]

Yeah I thought they’d get something extensive considering some Indonesians were more ok with the japs than the Dutch but my bad I guess

[sharp spade]

Amazing how countries with little or no significance in ww2 got a bigger tree than Indonesia

[glossy inlet]

Indonesias tree is pretty big though

Just not in ways I thought it’d be

[coral drift]

Yes. The chaos of Liberal Democracy triggers that shift

So if Sukarno wins the revolution without Liberal Democracy existing, no reason to implement the IRL military-assisted dictatorship

[vale plover]

PETA ?
When comes the "close factory farms" decision

[keen totem]

its not about the size for me, this tree feels very limiting in some aspects, and as if they just abandoned certain aspects

[vale plover]

also i like that the escalation mechanic is the same one as italy

[coral drift]

Van Mook is nowhere to be seen

[coral drift]

One of the few goods

[keen totem]

the actual revolution mechanic seems sweet

it definitely will be the highlight of playing indonesia for me

[glossy inlet]

Honestly it feels like the inverse of the British raj where the loyalist path seems to be done with the most care

[keen totem]

the loyalist path here actually looks like it'd be fun to play

[glossy inlet]

I remember the raj didn’t even come with a loyalist path when it first released

[vale plover]

i wonder what countries they can form

and what they can naturally intigrate

also they better make the navy path strong

15% dockyard output or bust

[glossy inlet]

I’m just saying we got this with no Malaya

Probably going to have to wait next year when the uk gets redone

[vale plover]

lets hope for secret new zealand i guess (we wont get it cause paradox is cheap)

[glossy inlet]

New Zealand is getting more economic focus and spirits and I think mios and that’s it

[vale plover]

their political tree is what needs it

[glossy inlet]

Ik

[vale plover]

the only part of the new zealand tree they can keep intact is the maori relations part

[glossy inlet]

The leader of the communist path wasn’t even the leader irl

It’s just a writer

[keen totem]

i mean there's this but unsure what it could possibly do

[brittle venture]

non core manpower after getting malaysia is my guess

[vale plover]

Stability, recrutiable pop, claims on malaysia, new guinea ?

[brittle venture]

maybe compliance

ticking compliance would be OP

[coral drift]

Holding any lands outside of Java and Sumatra in the 1930s version of the revolution is just funny. The Swaprajas there would get independent first before any Indonesian revolutionaries can secure it

Hope that in the buildup phase you can convince a few of Swaprajas to also mess up with the Dutch

[misty geyser]

It lets you core Indonesian & malay states you own if you build a civ in the state. There are several methods throughout the tree to take over Malaya, ie the unaligned path's limited wars in Malaya

[keen totem]

indonesia gets limited wars? wasnt that originally something intended for siam in the dev corners?

but i do like the sound of that

[misty geyser]

Yes and yes.

[keen totem]

sweet

[glossy inlet]

Am I correct to assume that the puppet path for Japan also doubles as its fascist path?

Because honestly I’ve been working with nothing but assumptions on that

[brittle venture]

hi lily, youre cool

[misty geyser]

More or less, yes. There isn't much in terms of direct fascist content for Indonesia, but the unaligned paths can get close.

[brittle venture]

if its about diversity entirely wouldnt it make sense to be a buff on all non core instead?

[misty geyser]

you too

[misty geyser]

It's about the Indonesian national motto "Unity in Diversity". it's more focused on the unity aspect

[brittle venture]

i see coring as like, integrating an area culturally, not necessarily a diversity thing

and so for diversity, imo, itd make more sense to be non core buffs, and maybe lose getting cores on indonesia in favour of having better buffs for conquering

it should be a choice, imo

[keen totem]

is there any focuses that are hidden on start? im looking through the full image of the tree that was posted in the forums, and i cant see the "seize the opprotunity" focus they showed in the first DD.

[coral drift]

Indies Gunseikan (Occupation) branch

First DD

[misty geyser]

Yes, they're unlocked via an event when you get invaded

[keen totem]

seems cool, does the event fire solely if it's japan occupying you, or will it fire if another nation occupies you as well?

[keen totem]

yes, that's what i'm referring to

[brittle venture]

excited for hard nations personally :) i hope there will be something challenging like ethiopia/original afghanistan (tho the latter got a lot stronger later) but still engaging (unlike say the philippines where you cant do much or fight much)

really hope there will be more like interesting nations to play that are hard :P

[keen totem]

the philippines kinda relies on you fighting japan, and that's assuming they ever invade you if you play non-historical.

[brittle venture]

its just boring imo

but like ethiopia is one of my fav nations in hoi

its fun

[keen totem]

i do agree

feels just limited in general what you can do

[brittle venture]

one day, hawaii playable with content would be peak

though insanely unlikely

[keen totem]

kaiserredux 😂😂

it'd be nice if eventually certain releaseables get content

[coral drift]

And of course the forpol stuffs after the revolution can either focus on reclaiming ex-DEI territories occupied by now-independent swaprajas, or allying them and sharing economic buffs instead

[glossy inlet]

I think adding a decision that makes you flip like Paraguay or even a little focus that switches ideologies would be decent to have in said path

[fresh cedar]

Do you know if there’s any monarchist content? As I understand it, Indonesia proper won’t. But the various puppet states will if it fractures?

Also will the Indonesian releasables have any special content?

And by content I mean spirits, formables, or leaders. I guess kind of like how Chinese warlords can takeover China and have their own flavor

[granite vessel]

I hope that it will not happen that some states will not be included in the list when you create the Reichskommissariat Australasien, or, as in the case of Afghan Islamic path, when you core Indonesian states.

[uneven relic]

hey i capitulated poland

hoorayy

[fresh cedar]

Tbh this makes sense. Though other ways were possible

[keen totem]

this is honestly enough for a fascist path imo

[fresh cedar]

I agree

They could have had a dedicated fascist path beforehand. But I’m kind of glad they didn’t for Ahistorical

Game is already very chaotic 😂

Monarchism/Islam path is a missed opportunity. Wish atleast one made it. But there are quite a lot of paths currently

[keen totem]

it's a real shame

but the current paths look interesting enough

[fresh cedar]

It almost seems like since GOE, they’ve been weary to do Muslim content.

I could be imagining it.

Would’ve been really neat to have it in Indonesia though. I get it that one releaseable has it. But unsure if that gets content

[keen totem]

which releaseable?

[fresh cedar]

Sultanate of Gowa

And Sultanate of Siak Sri Indrapura ig

Could be more honestly as I couldn’t read them all

But I wonder if they can unify similar to Chinese warlords. Or if they Moreso like what Korea got

So many of them are sultanates actually. God I hope they get flavor

[keen totem]

i feel indonesia had good potential for a monarchist path, feels like the potential was just wasted

[green scaffold]

man is the army branch really just 5 focuses

or is it not finalized

[fresh cedar]

Hoping monarchism stems from them. If not through a focus, atleast through a formable and unique name/flag/color

Like how Czech Austro Hungarian Empire is Moravia now

[fresh cedar]

It is sort of short. As far as I know, Indonesia didn’t really have an independent military and was about like 100k soldiers

Maybe specific political trees grant buffs?

[misty geyser]

There's two army branches in the revolution path -- the Laskar Rakyat branch is also an army branch. The People's Security Army is specifically for building a professional army

[fresh cedar]

That makes sense, I thought that was the case

Thank you! 🙂

Lily, I’m not sure if anyone asked as I didn’t see. But did you happen to list the releasables for Indonesia? I couldn’t read them from the picture

[glossy inlet]

Wait can we see the dedicated co prosperity path?

I wonder if there’s an eventual independence event or focus on the case that Japan doesn’t lose

[glossy inlet]

They did add a dealing with the Shia focus earlier this year to Iraq which I remember they said something about that when goe was advertised

[fresh cedar]

I have many questions for Lily too but to be fair it’s late. 😂

[glossy inlet]

We be nosy like that

[green scaffold]

an important question, does either of them give research bonuses to infantry weapons techs

[pastel flume]

why didnt they release west papua, it was added in ncsns

[glossy inlet]

They clarified it will be there

[fresh cedar]

I’m not sure 😂

[coral drift]

The fast pacing to make Sukarno fascist if you go with early revolution is very much wacky.

Heck, even going all-in with Japan and winning WW2 in 1946 would not make Sukarno fascist.

1960s Sukarno on the other hand....

[keen totem]

how DID sukarno's views change throughout the years

[coral drift]

Not even the party which has (Javanese) monarchists inside of them is present in the content

Heck, the Revolution content is very much focused on the PETA-PNI grouping of the IRL one. It's a great historical branch to cap off the WW2, but to use it before Germany attacks Poland is absurd

[keen totem]

feel this is definitely more for gameplay rather than full historical accuracy in this case

given that you're essentially starting the revolution a decade earlier

[coral drift]

1. Getting convinced to work with the Japanese in 1942-1943
2. Forced to work with the Sendenbu, Islamists, and Javanese conservatives from 1944-1945
3. Seeing the chaos of parliamentary politics from 1946 all the way until 1958
4. Having numerous separatists and rebellions, caused by parliamentary deadlocks. The big one was in 1957-8
5. Convinced by Nasution and Supomo to implement Guided Democracy as the "Jalan Tengah (Middle Way)" between Capitalism and Communism
6. Doing auto-coup in July 1959, and then remaking the Indonesian parliament on his own image

It's a very much long process.

[coral drift]

Mhm

[keen totem]

ah got it, see in this case then given you implement his "guided democracy" in 1940 or something along those lines would be a bit

we'll say inaccurate

[coral drift]

Yeah, the pacing is too fast.

Like, the question of "it's possible to make Sukarno fascist?" can be answered with a resounding yes. But it would take a long time and only through one specific circumstance

A nice segue to the TNO!Indonesia, though

There are more prominent Indonesian right-nationalists in the 1930s-40s. Just use them instead of Sukarno

[coral drift]

<@&846894118219022336>

I'm in the middle of my tirade ffs

Anyway, @keen totem
Funny to see Fascist Sukarno brought forward 20 years

But Hubertus van Mook being made politically relevant again 5 years earlier than IRL? Not a single clue on that in the revealed contents so far 😂

[keen totem]

I feel like there's just a little bit of things in the alt-historical indonesia that feels a bit lackluster

compared to the rest

[coral drift]

Not even "the rest" is any better

Guess the narrative in the reform path is that the colonial government would accept Sutarjo first before eating their shoes. And they would accept eating their shoes first before making Van Mook's Commonwealth ideas relevant again lol

Some goods and some bads, mixed bag overall

[glossy inlet]

1930s Sukarno being fascist is like making MacArthur be the fascist leader of America

[pure schooner]

What do u think of the new indonesia content overall

[coral drift]

Can't decide it yet

The existing content in my mod is 6/10, as there are many things that i wanted to rework, or even add because it isn't exist yet (in case of the Indies Gunseikan content)

[sour furnace]

Even the historical path is incoherent and extremely lackluster

[coral drift]

Please don't repeat yesterday's tone, bhre....

I know we're all angry. Like, there's a reason i played Syiir Tanpo Waton

[sour furnace]

Pardon me. Let me be diplomatic then: with more work it has the potetial to be really good

[coral drift]

Very much agree. Or just utilizing actual Indonesian rightists if Japan comes before 1942

[glossy inlet]

I can’t blame him completely if this was like the only shot my country had at people giving a damn and it wasn’t what I had expected I’d be pressed too

[coral drift]

We're collectively malding on my server's VC yesterday.

[glossy inlet]

What’s the biggest offence to you

[keen totem]

i feel it myself even though i myself have no real knowledge on indonesian history, but i expected a bit more

[coral drift]

@glossy inlet

[keen totem]

feels they poured too much effort into the actual revolution part of the tree, and then left the rest of it to sorta just

"be there"

[glossy inlet]

I see

[glossy inlet]

Spain 2.0

[coral drift]

And the revolution contents is very much tailored to the IRL 1945 one

Which is great, but terrible to be implemented in 1930s

[keen totem]

this was very expected tbf

at least that's how i felt

anything that would've been an "independent indonesia" tree would've been based around the 1945 war for independence in one way or another

[coral drift]

But the IRL National Revolution was a result of a very specific circumstance, mainly influenced by the Occupation

[glossy inlet]

I mean we can always for something like what the raj and Afghanistan had where they had war efforts that great expanded the tree

[keen totem]

yes, aware but i feel that regardless of that fact, they were gonna model an independence path after that revolution in some way

[glossy inlet]

Though I have a sneaky suspicion the raj one was just unfinished content being pushed out

[keen totem]

not because of 100% pure accuracy, but because of gameplay and because it's what's openly available to base things off of

[coral drift]

GoE would be better received if it was released in May 2025

[glossy inlet]

Probably yeah

[coral drift]

Mhm.... But still, in the 1930s Sutomo and Thamrin is still alive and active, Sukarno is exiled away

And most importantly, much of the populace were still apathetic (compared to >1944) and way weaker than the Dutch

[keen totem]

main issues that i remember from it's release was that it was pretty buggy

[glossy inlet]

That and there were things that just weren’t really good or not even there

[coral drift]

Such as

[glossy inlet]

The saddabaad pact was cut and they only put it in cause every saw it was cut

[sour furnace]

Absolutely, I'm not a man who cares about whether or not 10 thousand different tribes and Sukarno's romantic affairs are represented, I just wanted something fun and playable😔

[glossy inlet]

I remember the commie India tree literally being unaccessible until independence and the tree was majorly small with nothing to have really

Also kurdistan lead to nothing when it first launched

And the endless wars with no limited ones

[coral drift]

Yeah. I wanted a both nice gameplay that is still immersive, the balance is admittedly hard to made to be honest

But at least don't veer into one extreme, especially if you have a country with massive immersiveness potential as the East Indies

[glossy inlet]

I think the one thing that confuses me that i still don’t really get is how small the commie path is

[coral drift]

Also the pacing. Going straight into ASLIA is wack.

At least as both communist branches, you need a proper buildup before taking on Nusantara, and another buildup before taking on SEA.

Then in Tan Malaka's path, you can unlock ASLIA if he is fully in control

[glossy inlet]

Like I’d get it if Siam has a small one but Indonesia seems like the one that’s should have a pretty deep one

[keen totem]

again, as i keep saying, feels that the entire tree is tailored around the revolution itself, and the post-war content feels a little bit lacking

[glossy inlet]

Commie Indonesia just gonna be staring at the Soviets while they die by Japan

[keen totem]

https://tenor.com/view/lock-gif-10502066628546086384

[sour furnace]

Precisely, I think that the devs focus too much on how this 1 country specific content (the national revolution) would work that they screwed the pooch on when and what's next after the revolution

[sour furnace]

Icl this is the entire commie tree

[weary sorrel]

Omg I remembered this from reddit back in 2022

Op made a mod on it

[keen totem]

still accurate to this day

[glossy inlet]

I do feel like for communist paths especially in far off places like indo I do l feel like there should be some sort of a division support as when a major attacks and you’ll probably won’t have what you need to defend it all and you really won’t have a lot of support from the Soviets

[keen totem]

feels like the communist paths tend to be overly reliant on the soviets being

somewhat competent

[glossy inlet]

They kinda need to be

[coral drift]

Or working with other groups to get your country stronger, as the Indonesian communists aren't exactly Bolshevized before 1949

Of course there would be potentials to get the PKI overthrown or defeated in the elections, but at least Indonesia would be strong enough to defend against the invaders

[glossy inlet]

Yeah

[keen totem]

in a sense yeah, but just boiling down communist paths to "we love stalin" or "our communism is better" just feels a bit boring at times

[glossy inlet]

Though obviously you had that Musso guy

[glossy inlet]

True but hey that was communism for you back then

[coral drift]

Both Musso and Tan Malaka were partial Bolsheviks with Musso adhered to Stalinist line and Tan Malaka followed Lenin's idea of partial decentralization and national autonomy, but the grassroots in Indonesia were just "Communism means merdeka, nothing else"

[glossy inlet]

A big problem for commie paths is that they’re unapologetically reliant on the Soviets….because pretty much every communist party of real substance was pretty much up until the soviet collapse

[coral drift]

Like, for the grassroots, difference between following PKI or PNI is just "Do you want to be ruled by Dewan Rakyat (Soviet) or Sukarno, either way we'll be Merdeka"

[glossy inlet]

Kinda weird for this tree speaking as I don’t see a dedicated communist support and resistance focus until they actually go communist

[coral drift]

In Indonesia, the tactic from early communists from ISDV was to infiltrate existing pro-independence organizations and making them drifting left

That's what happened with Sarekat Islam before the 1921 schism, and after that PKI was formed and quickly eclipses the SI because of the mass-appeal tactics, until the 1926 Rebellion happened anyways

No reliance to the Soviets whatsoever

[glossy inlet]

But that’s what I’m saying though of all communists to not really have any deep treatment the Indonesians really seem to be the one that absolutely shouldn’t

So it’s weird they’re an after thought

[sour furnace]

It's a huge disappointment I think it would've been better for them to center the start of the commie path around the Madiun affair (which could be instigated early of course)

[coral drift]

Btw, one of Sukarno's influencer was Otto Bauer, the Austromarxist guy from GtD

[coral drift]

Huh? I mean, at least one path can use that

Another path is to usurp the government from within, or reuse the infiltration tactics

[sour furnace]

I get that Tan Malaka was (and is) big but he's not "Coup the gov and they just give him the keys" big

[sour furnace]

Would've been more accurate..

[coral drift]

But for the hypothetical 1930s PKI revolution, another tactic is needed to build up support to fight the Dutch

[coral drift]

I mean, by 1946, everyone who did not rally around Sukarno was rallying around Tan Malaka

So it's accurate for the Historical National Revolution path (and that path only)

[fresh cedar]

Maybe in an alt history universe he had a different background as well as Indonesia. I think similar arguments can be made for many alt history trees. German Kaiser, CSA America, Ottomans etc

[coral drift]

And what's the better time to start fixing things than now

[fresh cedar]

As a Japanese puppet on historical during occupation is fine imo

More of a collaborator than a staunch supporter

[coral drift]

Oh yes, but then again, the pace needs to be slower. And Sukarno can only be fascist if Japan won the war

Otherwise, nonaligned

[fresh cedar]

I think that’s the plan isn’t it? If Japan occupies them he’s the puppet. Kind of like that Chinese Japanese puppet

[keen totem]

opportunism we'll say

[keen totem]

Wang Jingwei?

[coral drift]

And the country would still be civilian-dominated, not using the "Jalan Tengah" (military interventionism) 12 years early

[fresh cedar]

Think so

[fresh cedar]

On historical yeah

[glossy inlet]

I understand they didn’t do the nsb in Indonesia

[fresh cedar]

For ahistorical I find more extreme options to be plausible

Though for full fascist on ahistorical maybe other options would be nice

[glossy inlet]

We play as the nation as a whole not the leader so I don’t mind too too extreme things

[fresh cedar]

Really like how Spain and Germany get options for fascist leaders. Heck even Italy

[coral drift]

Needs to be pro-civilian alternative on the Japanese-dominated path than implementing Guided Democracy 15 years earlier

[fresh cedar]

Why?

[coral drift]

^

[fresh cedar]

Like Pro-Civilian fascist?

[coral drift]

Yuup, again, Indonesia's situation is unique

[fresh cedar]

Isn’t the whole point of the ahistorical to break off from the Netherlands and mobilize. Since Indonesia is basically demobilized historically

[keen totem]

italy has balbo, grandi and of course mussolini as your options

[glossy inlet]

Yeah like seigo nakano

[fresh cedar]

And then Germany can have like 4-6 replacements for Hitler. Not counting Strasser and Eva Braun as well.

[glossy inlet]

Should’ve had that for Belgium

[coral drift]

Indonesia should have Thamrin and Sukardjo too as the pro-Japan alternative

You know, the actual Indonesian rightists

[keen totem]

believe germany has Himmler, Goebbels, Todt, Speer, Bormann, Hess and Goering

[fresh cedar]

Kras, I get what you’re saying for a historical perspective. But it loses a bit of traction when in ahistorical. A completely civilian focused fascist path may not make for fun gameplay, which at that rate why would people choose that over other paths

[pastel flume]

usually that puppet is non aligned for most of the game until you flip fascist

[glossy inlet]

You can be pro civilian and still be pro war

[coral drift]

Civs-oriented would be much stable and should have buffs revolving around that and production, preparing to support the Sphere in another way

Mils can have war-oriented buffs but with the risk of the government being overthrown by the communists if people aren't fed well (or actually Merdeka, as promised by the Japanese)

[fresh cedar]

But I agree, these options would be nicer for full fascist

[glossy inlet]

Japan has it though that’s a little obvious

[glossy inlet]

I suggested a decision or event or a single focus is probably the best way to do it without making a whole new branch

[keen totem]

if you would consult the graph

[fresh cedar]

I’d say if you could recommend a solid change to do this. And list a specific leader or two

[glossy inlet]

Don’t remind me

[fresh cedar]

Nah, 1 path attacks Russia don’t forget 😂

[fresh cedar]

Lowkey why I wish more ideologies were in the game but ik that would overcomplicate it

[fresh cedar]

Lowkey Strasser path

[glossy inlet]

Maybe but Strassers is very out of the way I was thinking more like Paraguay

[fresh cedar]

I fixed his image 😂

Made a mod basically for myself that fixes so portraits

[fresh cedar]

Yeah true

[keen totem]

i have a few mods on myself that just change some portraits and flags around

[glossy inlet]

That’s a god awful portrait Idk why they picked that one

[keen totem]

it's pretty funny i'll give them that

[glossy inlet]

It’s like adrien arcand idk why they picked that pic

[fresh cedar]

Think Sukarno should be the occupation collaborator/opprtunist. But need another for full fascist

[fresh cedar]

Same

[fresh cedar]

Legit looks like a meme rat

[glossy inlet]

It’s so iconic to him that I’m sure people will riot if they change it

[fresh cedar]

They chose one that looked like a Bond villain

[glossy inlet]

I know in rt56 is just a normal portrait but I believe the vanilla one is during a speech or conversation

[fresh cedar]

If you could have one leader lead the fascist party. (Sukarno being limited to occupied Indonesia) who would you pick

[fresh cedar]

Dressed like a mega hipster for the period

[coral drift]

Anyone from Parindra: Sutomo-Thamrin-Sukarjo

[coral drift]

More Subids can be added

Adele and Thamrin can use "ultranationalism" or "national conservatism"

[sour furnace]

Huh I thought ultranationalism is already a subid or is that only in Rt56?

[coral drift]

And we're not counting the Dutch fascists

[fresh cedar]

Ultranationalism would be sick

[coral drift]

Only for RT56. I make Thamrin adopting that subid there

(EIR-RT56 integration soon +1 windu)

[sour furnace]

Shame

[glossy inlet]

Stern gang Israel path when?

[fresh cedar]

They aren’t touching Israel ever 😂

If Silk Road got people mad

[glossy inlet]

That’s why they need me I got that metal in me 💪🏻

[coral drift]

Amen

And then seeing whether "the suggestion would be implemented in vanilla" or "i modded that in EIR" would come first

At least i already have a Parindra revolution path lol

[keen totem]

i think you can count on a suriname focus tree before they even consider anything related to israel or that general area

[glossy inlet]

Honestly I really like rt56 Palestine and Israel

Though the war always got tedious after a little

[coral drift]

Hence why we need a proper pre-WW2 revolutionary paths

[glossy inlet]

It really is clear the intended way to play indo is by being loyal then collab with Japan then revolution

[keen totem]

yeah me too, they're quite fun to play

[coral drift]

At least that's the Historical gameplan, and i did not have any reservation against that other than making Sukarno suddenly fascist outside of "Japan wins the war"

[keen totem]

even when i dont play them, when they would collapse in a game it just made the region more interesting

[glossy inlet]

I liked the United communist Palestine I thought that was neat that people really forget about

[coral drift]

And then the economic branch needs to be revamped to handle De Malaise (our word for The Great Depression)

Adding to the option between adhering to the "Wellenstein Plan" (building community-driven cooperatives and other pro-Bumiputra measures) or listening to the Big Businesses

The former would lead to a slower recovery, but the populace would be more resilient and empowered

The latter would make the economy recovers faster in cost of political stability and Bumiputran enfranchisement

[glossy inlet]

It’s too much like Congo in someways

Congo makes sense but Indonesia had much more of a development intelligentsia and political activity than the Congo at that time especially so for it to be so decently tied to the Netherlands makes sense but I feel as if the caveats weren’t as thought about

Congo was cool in the sense that when you play the future independence thinkers were literally shown to be growing up and emerge as a genuine force in the Congo. For Indonesia that was already far present so I feel like it should’ve been more of a “independent” way of economy and army rather than having to cooperate a good ton with the Dutch

[coral drift]

You guys here are more receptive on my ideas here, thanks.

At least no one called me "obsessed" like that person in the subreddit

[glossy inlet]

Dude you’re Indonesian would be a little weird if you weren’t

Plus like I said this is like you’re only shot at your country really ever being represented in a place like this so you’re gonna want to make sure everything is right and correct

[polar jasper]

To be fair, i would probably be extremely nitpicky when it comes to a US rework

[keen totem]

Obviously when it comes to your own country, it'd make sense if you'd even in general have more knowledge on it's situation

[polar jasper]

I made an entire bug report on the USS Langley lol

[keen totem]

i myself nitpick on tiny little things about the polish tree even though it's years old atp

[glossy inlet]

Remember the Philippines tree is bigger than the us

[keen totem]

they'd better get the US right at the very least

it'd be a real shame if the US tree would be left in the current state it's in

it's not terrible maybe persay, it's just not really fun for an actual player to play through

[glossy inlet]

I do think it bugs me that the pro Soviet literal puppet path has a leader than literally ended the Stalinist era than the guy who was actually a Stalinist

[keen totem]

completely skipped over Bierut

[glossy inlet]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they made the us tree with extra care because such a big part of the player base is from here

[coral drift]

Yeah
No Huib van Mook making it in is a great loss

[keen totem]

even though he was notorious for the shit he and his regime did

and there's a lack of a lot of generals for poland, but i dont mean to go on a tangent

[polar jasper]

It works, but needs more flavor.

Also ahistorical is just way too ahistorical for it to make sense

A primary system (picking which candidate to run in the election) would definitely make things more plausible

[keen totem]

it's not "too ahistorical" it just doesn't make any damn sense

confederate macarthur comes to power because alf landon reintroduces the gold standard

[glossy inlet]

It’s literally like MacArthur remaking the Csa when he was a proud union man

lol

[keen totem]

or FDR suddenly grows a soft spot for communists

[glossy inlet]

Or degrelle leading Flemish nationalists

[polar jasper]

Local New Deal Republican re-establishes the gold standard and approaches the fascists who are a powerful force for some reason.

Union loving general then proceeds to restore the confederacy

[coral drift]

Mhm
Feels very much vindicated considering the latest DD

One person in the forums is consistenly against my nitpicks in the first DD, especially on the releaseables and the map changes

Feels good right now

[glossy inlet]

Also William Dudley Pelley didn’t like the confederacy himself and thought essentially that they were a bunch of idiots

[keen totem]

cant Lindbergh also become the leader of fascist america?

[coral drift]

My wish for the US tree is to include a Rooseveltian path where you going arond decolonizing the globe even at the risk of a conflict with Entente Cordiale

[polar jasper]

I dont understand why someone would actively disregard your statements on Indonesia unless you were actively hostile to people (which you are not i believe)

[glossy inlet]

Yeah forgot bout him

[keen totem]

Roosevelts wild ride where the entire globe is decolonized at the expense of literally everyone else

this is something i never knew i needed but i want this now

[polar jasper]

Lindbergh being chosen as a candidate for the presidency would be a great way to start a fascist/non aligned path

Maybe even communist if you make it a civil war route

[keen totem]

any american tree should HEAVILY revolve around elections and congress

[polar jasper]

Beware of Switzerland

[keen totem]

it'd be nice if you could expand elections, have multiple candidates

[polar jasper]

Switzerland revolves around its government mechanic and people hate it

[keen totem]

or nominate certain candidates or choose between candidate A or B

[glossy inlet]

I hope they remember William z foster was a major part of the communist party

[keen totem]

yeah but then again switzerland is the definition of "nothing ever happens" in country format

[coral drift]

Hope so

But they forget to add Alimin and Semaun for Indonesia, so fingers crossed

[glossy inlet]

Also I feel like the mafia should be a part of America as this was at the height of their presence in the country

[polar jasper]

The US would really benefit from allowing players to choose who runs for what party.

That way it is much more plausible for alt history to happen

[keen totem]

free al capone from jail and they take over the US

[glossy inlet]

Kaiserredux moment

[keen totem]

feel even allowing macarthur to run for president, by maybe forcing him to renounce military posts of his to run as the republican candidate

i mean historically i believe he wanted to run three seperate times but i could be mistaken

[polar jasper]

They already have MacArthur able to be president

Everyone just wins before the 44 election

You have the choice to have him or the historical choice

[keen totem]

yeah i suppose but i dont wanna wait till 44 to get funny nuclear american man into power

[polar jasper]

1940 MacArthur presidency would be crazy

Billion dollars to the army, cut funding to the navy

We love interservice rivalries

[glossy inlet]

It’d be cool if as the fascists or the communists or us in general there’s a focus that can target the various political machines around the country

[keen totem]

"Mr. President, the Germans just overran France, the Brits are pleading for our help, what do we do?"

"Turn it into a sea of irridiated cobalt."

[keen totem]

isnt mccarthy an advisor but he's only used to put the fascists in power

[polar jasper]

McCarthy is just there to lower communist support

[glossy inlet]

I think so

[polar jasper]

And that is it

[keen totem]

bazillion army bonuses and then a 50% research bonus on nukes

[polar jasper]

50% consumer goods factor because military spending for balance

[keen totem]

would barely make a dent in america's civ factory count

[glossy inlet]

I’m mostly talking about cracking down on guys like pandergast or Tammany hall and other big corrupt political machines that were around back in the day in pretty major us cities

[keen totem]

they should buff america's factory count there's no reason why germany should be able to reach the same amount of factories as america in like 1940

[polar jasper]

Tammany Hall was still a thing in the 30s?

[glossy inlet]

Was up until the 60s

Now it’s a petco I think

[polar jasper]

I might spend time trying to think of an actually decent way to rework the US focus tree that isnt just the GermanyLuxembourg mod

[solar vortex]

Hi guys

[solar vortex]

How does one make a focus tree actually.

Because I watched tutorials and it looks complicated

[coral drift]

As a modder, first you see what problems are need to be addressed and aims that needs to be achieved, then map a way to get from point A to B

Surprisingly easy if you know what to do, but if no you can stuck for months

[solar vortex]

I see. I wanna make a submod for my own mod they adds post war focus tree on top of the vanilla focus tree..

[slender arch]

dayum da dev is here

can i speak other languages here?

[coral drift]

I'm Indonesian

And no, i'm not part of the HoI4 team, but i'm the dev of East Indies Reworked mod

[slender arch]

yeah i know mas, i just looked to your discord and read your bio heheh
love your mod!

[polar jasper]

No idea. I am an ideas guy, not a coder

[solar vortex]

ah my bad

[coral drift]

Oh, okay

[crimson tartan]

why does it look like trash bro 😭

maybe i should get rid of the map on the background

😭 trash 😭

[coral drift]

What's this?
Modding?

[crimson tartan]

nah

making a map

like just a map

[crimson tartan]

nah uh i ain't gonna do this

oh wrong channel
well who cares 😠

[hollow lion]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/639243391237881906.webp?size=48

[fresh portal]

1

[bitter mauve]

She does

[gritty lava]

Mercedes

[cosmic falcon]

I'm looking forward to see what they have for Siam.

[polar jasper]

Become fascist
Invade French Indochina (through event likely) and get a bit of land.
Forced to join co-prosperity sphere.
Do not much
Switch sides at the end when the war turns.
Lose all previous gains.
Survive with government structure pretty much intact.

[harsh hull]

Have they shown if Indochina will be its own tag once TAOG drops?

[hollow coral]

italy lite

[thick edge]

Peak

[keen totem]

im confident it wont be

<@&846894118219022336>

[fresh cedar]

Already technically becomes its own thing on historical when Japan occupies. But it isn’t actually like Indochina

Though Indochina should’ve existed over Lebanon/syria

[crimson tartan]

Hot take: Not a single colonial administration should exist in a game

[green scaffold]

hot take: south American nations should have an on/off toggle

Syria is not a colonial administration tho anyways

it wasn't a colony

[polar jasper]

They should honestly just get rid of the countries introduced in GOE. Why do we need a bunch of tags in the middle east again at game start

Burma could stay... maybe

[green scaffold]

yeah having them as tags at game start is just worse for people who want to play them and pointless if you don't play them

and like

why add them as tags but then add no content whatsoever

not national spirits, no leader traits, nothing

[polar jasper]

I thought they were to make it to where if they capped, Iraq could white peace, but nope

[keen totem]

i think the two should've been combined, as i do think they were both administered as one mandate but i might be wrong

[keen totem]

meh, im fine with them staying, just wish they did something and were more.. interesting we'll say

they sit around and do nothing and there's nothing unique about any of them

[lethal folio]

God,the indonesian focus tree looks like it was released in 2020 with la résistance

[drifting star]

It looks fine

It’s peak

[lethal folio]

Stop bootlicking

Its bad and judging by yesterday's outcry it's quality is on par with goe

[fathom sorrel]

https://tenor.com/view/clown-makeup-clown-makeup-bozo-gif-26049773

[smoky atlas]

even the kaiserreich indonesian tree is better

[polar jasper]

How do you know it is bad, have you played it?

If it is a buggy mess, then sure

[crimson tartan]

bro haven't even touched it and already complaining 😭

or did i just fell for the ragebait

[polar jasper]

Coinflip if it was real or ragebait

[coral drift]

I mean....

[polar jasper]

Oh... is it actually that bad?

[coral drift]

IRL Sudirman was a schoolteacher until 1943 when he was conscripted into PETA

[polar jasper]

Oh

[crimson tartan]

bro you can make A BEAR to rule central european country

[coral drift]

And he only won the 1946 vote because he led the BKR into victory against the British at Ambarawa

[coral drift]

Okay, where is Hubertus van Mook?

[crimson tartan]

i'm not an indonesia history guy but he's probably dead 😭

[coral drift]

You can bring Sukarno's dictatorship 20 years earlier, but you can't bring forward Van Mook's career 5 years forward

[crimson tartan]

can you?

[polar jasper]

There is always the slightest chance PDX listens to the community

[crimson tartan]

ooooooooh scheiße

[polar jasper]

no matter how slight it is

[crimson tartan]

grok this ain't real

😭

[coral drift]

You did not read the DD?

[crimson tartan]

no i did not

[coral drift]

Istg

[crimson tartan]

yes i did not

[coral drift]

@crimson tartan like, there is only 1 single circumstance when Sukarno can be fascist, but even that it would take more than 5 years

[crimson tartan]

I think we already have characters in the game who shouldn't be there because they became somehow important waaaaaaaaay later

but i can't remember who

[polar jasper]

There is that one British general who is like 16 at game start but is already available

[coral drift]

Well, the best time to fix those inaccuracies is the current dev cycle (which is now), the 2nd best time is the past dev cycles

[glossy inlet]

Bro really said dead 🥀🥀🥀

[karmic atlas]

why do i feel the foci get more and more empty, like the belgian commie path or their hist-democratic one

[stable tusk]

I think one of the issues is that everything is so spaced out but there aren't any focuses in between so it looks emptier

[stable tusk]

<@&846894118219022336>

[drifting star]

I will say I wish there was more expansion opportunity or some sort of Islamic path which I feel like is way to under represented. Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world

[stable tusk]

<@&846894118219022336> Me again, its back

[polar jasper]

Bruh, this looks even faker than some of the others

[cosmic falcon]

Discord really need to crack down on these scams.

[keen totem]

discord aint gonna do shit

[crimson tartan]

he was born in 1894, I'm not sure if any people can still be alive from that time 😔

[coral drift]

Huh?

Huib was middle-aged by 1936

[crimson tartan]

it is with great sadness to inform you that today is 2026 😔

[coral drift]

@crimson tartan oh, you're just jesting with me, ffs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GurL8wz3nzw&t=4s

[crimson tartan]

😭

[fresh cedar]

How is Sukarno being fascist inaccurate if it’s ahistorical? Ahistorical is inherently inaccurate

[coral drift]

Inaccurate if Sukarno becomes fascist in 1930s-40s

1960s? Okay, and only after witnessing the chaos of Liberal Democracy era

[fresh cedar]

Yeah, pretty sure bears, kaisers and sultans wouldn’t be a thing

[fresh cedar]

It’s ahistorical though. As in it’s already not supposed to be accurate to the timeline

You’re looking at it through the lens if it actually happened in our timeline

[coral drift]

At most Sukarno should've been nonalignd

[fresh cedar]

At most the kaisers, CSA, Hashemite Iraq, unified South America etc shouldn’t exist either

[coral drift]

TNO has a fascist Sukarno in the 1960s, yet i have not protested it because their explanation is plausible

[fresh cedar]

Yeah because it’s alt history 😭

[coral drift]

Again, the main debate is "plausibility"

[coral drift]

There's alternative history, and there's Alien Space Bats

[fresh cedar]

Yeah basically 90% of ahistorical is implausible

[fresh cedar]

A guy being fascist 20 years early isn’t space bats 💀💀💀

[thick edge]

A bear can lead Poland

[coral drift]

Meme content and hard to achieve

[brittle venture]

it is when someones beliefs are formed through experiences

[coral drift]

Unless it is intended to have Fascist Sukarno as a meme content, then i would not speak further

[brittle venture]

at the time, he didnt want anything remotely fascist

[fresh cedar]

And in ahistorical they would have different experiences

[brittle venture]

yes, but not in that sense, no

he mustve had to live through a democratic-failed state for it

so in game itd make more sense to be non aligned

for various reasons

[cosmic stag]

hello yalls

[fresh cedar]

Which he would have since in order to get to it you have to do a revolution/be occupied

[cosmic stag]

whats going on here/happening?

[coral drift]

Why?

No "the nation is at civil war because of failed parliamentary system" thingy
No Abdul Nasution pushing him to embrace militarism

[brittle venture]

DEI ≠ democratic

thats like very very basic history

[coral drift]

And yet Hubertus van Mook is nowhere to be seen in the DEI contents

[fresh cedar]

Yeah so in ahistorical it’s possible different people were around him. Possibly more extreme and even the political situation more turbulent

[cosmic stag]

hello

[coral drift]

Also this

[thick edge]

I have literally no clue on anything DEI / Indonesia related

[coral drift]

Okay, name some

[cosmic stag]

hello opero

[fresh cedar]

And ahistorical isn’t, so that is already out the window 😭

[coral drift]

I'm waiting

[fresh cedar]

You could argue “USA democratic” like yeah man but that doesn’t hold up in ahistorical

[brittle venture]

what

thats not related

[fresh cedar]

I don’t complain that McArthur can rule the US, even though he didn’t have that level of influence till the 1950’s

[brittle venture]

its about a guy's ideology

at the time he just straight up wasnt a fascist

like he was a democrat bro

[cosmic stag]

hello casey

wassup

[brittle venture]

arguing over indonesia

its like

[fresh cedar]

Yeah, no way a civil war in which his belief systems were challenged, his people fought eachother, and his colonial overlord hated more than ever would influence that 💀💀💀

[brittle venture]

winston churchill was more of a fascist ideologically than sukarno at the time afaik

and like hes clearly not fascist so

you just seem kind of ignorant

[coral drift]

Nearer to fascism than Sukarno. Churchill was a conservative, and Sukarno is a socialist

[fresh cedar]

I’m sorry but out of most of the ahistorical paths in the game. Sukarno being fascist early amidst a tumultuous political climate and civil war. Is legit one of the most tame

[coral drift]

Sukarno would be closer to became communist than fascist if Japan did not sought him as a collaborator

His influencer was Marx, Sun Yat Sen, Cipto Mangunkusumo, and Otto Bauer (the Austromarxist guy)

[fresh cedar]

So was Mussolini

[brittle venture]

non aligned would be best is the point trying to be made sob

[coral drift]

By 1936 Mussolini is a fascist, and Sukarno is still a socialist

[fresh cedar]

Unless you didn’t know Mussolini was influenced by Karl Marx

[brittle venture]

would allow for japanese collab to be sensible + for everything else to make sense

[fresh cedar]

Yeah and 1940 Sukarno after experiencing a civil war and the above mentioned criteria may not have been socialist anymore

[brittle venture]

him being fascist does seem a bit silly

[coral drift]

Civil war against? (in HoI4 context)

[fresh cedar]

Against itself and the Netherlands?…

[fresh cedar]

This is a pretty bad argument as many fascist leaders started out socialist and radicalized to fascism. Almost supports my argument

Which we already know happened to Sukarno 😂

[coral drift]

Against the colonial government, who is backed by the Indies branch of NSB, with just a year before NSB's leader Anton Mussert met Governor-General BC de Jonge

[coral drift]

And he only turned authoritarian in 1959, yet he still backs PKI heavily until 1966

[fresh cedar]

I think you’re seriously under presenting how quickly extremism can take hold of countries and people

As an American in 2026 I am aware

The whole idea of fascism is that it’s not a logical conclusion.

[coral drift]

Thamrin would became fascist faster than Sukarno in the 1930s-40s

[fresh cedar]

Historically

The conditions are not the same as soon as 1936 starts

It diverges

People can easily change their views in a few years

I mean people on this discord do all the time

[coral drift]

And in TNO timeline Sukarno was only became a commited fascist in 1955 after Japan wins the war in 1945

[fresh cedar]

Yeah because TNO follows a more real world scenario if the axis was more successful

[coral drift]

I went from worshipping Sukarno to Tan Malaka to Sukarno again in span of 10 years. Neither of those two were fascist

[coral drift]

And so Sukarno should've be fascist ONLY if Japan wins the war.

[fresh cedar]

“were” as in historically

[coral drift]

If not, nonaligned

[fresh cedar]

I’m not arguing there arent better options. But to say it’s impossible in an ahistorical game. One that’s already diverged and generally much more extreme isn’t right

Again, I’ve known people who used to be more socialist and in a year are much more closer to fascism, within my country

In ahistorical, the whole world is different. People as a result can react and evolve differently

[cosmic stag]

Estonia in hoi4 is a GOOD minor to play as imo

[coral drift]

Still impossible.

Again, i would accept if you play "Loyalist Colony" to "Indies Gunseikan" to "Merdeka after Japanese Victory" and then getting a fascist Sukarno. And only on that condition

[fresh cedar]

Then be like “X person should lead fascist Indonesia” and just stick at them for that. 😂

[coral drift]

Like who? Dokter Sutomo-Thamrin-Sukardjo-Supomo from Parindra? The devs should've made it

[fresh cedar]

I’m pretty sure Charles Lindbergh and McArthur shouldn’t be fascist leaders either

[coral drift]

Nonaligned
Well, American rework isn't very far ahead

[fresh cedar]

Instead they went for a plausible option as that’s his ultimate outcome anyways. But if you as a native feel that strongly that another should lead recommend it

If I were Lily and someone presented me with like 100 different things they wanted changed. I wouldn’t be too responsive as it’s overwhelming.

You really gotta focus your efforts on a smaller scope

[coral drift]

Adding Parindra and PSII is not "100 things"

At most, probably 10-12 things

If i compiled my inputs from both DDs

[fresh cedar]

A dozen things is a lot from one persons input though

At most I got 1-2 things changed at a time

After a lot of justification and effort

[coral drift]

Yup, and said person is just happened to know a lot about Indonesia.

Can't wait for "fascist Sukarno" to be used as an example of "Desukarnoization" by actual Indonesian historians.

[fresh cedar]

Okay but ultimately you’re still just an observer in the community and not a developer

[coral drift]

(but i hope no, so that the Indonesian government would not take notice and ban HoI4 because of PKI's presence)

[fresh cedar]

I’m not saying your opinions don’t matter. But it’s a matter of influence and requests that need to be made. Not demands

Changing 12 things is no longer a simpler fix but a comprehensive list of changes the developer has to work for

1-2 is an afternoon

If you do have to present them all. Maybe do a clear defined list. And have like half be potential, and have a smaller list of needs

[coral drift]

Yeah, but really, i want to know which books the devs were reading to achieve such travesty. Like, come on, KITLV is still at Europe, unlike UGM and Kolsani at Jogjakarta

[fresh cedar]

I’ve wondered their source material for years too

Some is really good, some not so much.

[coral drift]

Like, "Di Bawah Bendera Revolusi", a collection of Sukarno's writings from 1926-1959, must be there at Leiden

You can read his condemnations towards fascism from 1929 all the way to 1957

[fresh cedar]

I’m guessing they focus moreso on history books and online resources rather than specific writings of historical actors

[coral drift]

They even got Tan Malaka's proposed nation of ASLIA on his 1945 Manifesto. It's not that hard to find it as it was available online at Marxist.org

[fresh cedar]

I’m guessing they didnt search that. This brings up a good point though

Would be interesting if HOI4 developers asked the community where to draw historical inspiration from early on in development for a dlc

Or through a pre-dlc survey

Imagine they had asked that and had a wider, more precise list of sources

I guess some may not be so good though from the community. Could be a double edged sword

[coral drift]

1. A reading through Tirto.id and Historia.id articles for starters, Wikipedia if i get desperate
2. Reading the book references they cited
3. Finding other writings from the same author

It all snowballed from April 2022 until now

[fresh cedar]

I’d guess Wikipedia is a big resource for them

[coral drift]

Should've read the cited books to confirm/finding other interesting stuffs too

[hollow coral]

[coral drift]

Using online articles is a good first step

[fresh cedar]

Like yeah historians do that because they’ve been taught to. I’m not sure about your average videogame developer

Sadly

I was taught in college to always dig into sources and their sources

[coral drift]

Mhm, but really. Basically i'm just ranting because based on the available materials, the devs can do so much more.

Like, i can envision 12 paths for both Indies and Indonesia and already publicly written them as a 'wishlist' for my mod, but if the devs only can do 7, please do those 7 correctly

[fresh cedar]

Why dig into a monarch’s lineage but not a sources source 😂

[fresh cedar]

Yeah sadly I think the vision of many focus trees could always be better, especially depending who you ask and why

[hollow coral]

focus trees should be scrapped in hoi5 imo

[fresh cedar]

I do like them for HOI4, but wonder what it’d be like without

[hollow coral]

There always a lot of contention with them

And realistically you can mever please anyone

Even if they add flavour they still feel very railroaded

[coral drift]

Hmm, how to properly convey political changes, then? Events/decisions only?

[hollow coral]

At some point its just doing the same thing everytime

[fresh cedar]

Just with the game systems like factions, political advisors etc

Reactions to world events

[hollow coral]

Doing actions is more engaging than waiting for them to begin

[fresh cedar]

This is why I play ahistorical a lot. The chaos makes it more interesting

[hollow coral]

probably more player based decisions rather than solely waiting for ai to start

[coral drift]

I mean, it's already there in a way. I implemented the "Party Congres" event chain for PKI path where you can change the leaders on each party congresses

[fresh cedar]

I do wish they had set ahistorical scenarios that could be Ironman. Not just pure chaos mode

[fresh cedar]

I’m guessing a no focus tree game would have systems like that

[hollow coral]

Hoi4 already strayed too far into the crazy ahis stuff

Cant change anything about that

[coral drift]

True, the focus branch on the communist path is only used for internal politics, changing the economy and social system, etc.

[hollow coral]

Yeah they do feel more engaging

But at some point its just becomes a hyperwar

[fresh cedar]

Sometimes a little too busted 😂

Yeah

Often just becomes 1984

[hollow coral]

With like your small faction vs 5 majors

[fresh cedar]

Recent ahistorical game I had

Basically 3 massive global factions

Man I really wish they’d rework the generals system.

[fresh cedar]

Tbh I like some of the systems it has

[misty geyser]

FYI Sukarno is unaligned in 99% of games -- the only way he ends up fascist is if he's the country leader while you're a japanese puppet and Japan is fascist

[fresh cedar]

https://tenor.com/view/hell-doom-doomguy-doom-slayer-gif-1856426728697571896

[hollow coral]

Does the embrace co prosperity focus do anything?

[misty geyser]

It's a fairly minor focus right now. I've noticed people seem to be quite insistant in wanting a fascist path so I'll look into expanding it in a patch with some extra focuses

[hollow coral]

trust me i couldnt care less

[sour furnace]

Thank you. believe you guys can do so much better.

[coral drift]

Or at least already add a "ultranationalist" subid for fascism, and "monarchism" subideology for nonaligned

[fresh cedar]

It’s an accurate representation of Lily and the Indonesian fanbase

[coral drift]

Okay, this is sensible.

Now, how about him implementing Guided Democracy 15-19 years than IRL? Would it be changed?

[sour furnace]

I would prefer if the Indonesian community do things diplomatically rather than riot like the Indian or Chinese community.

[fresh cedar]

Dude 😭

[coral drift]

Like, the amount of times i had to defend my decision in my server to not make PNI/Parindra-led Indonesia able to join Axis is staggering

[hollow coral]

A historical for a reason not going to lie

[fresh cedar]

Poor Lily. Took on work for a very passionate country. 😔

[hollow coral]

Again

[fresh cedar]

I’m surprised the Turkish fan base didn’t lose it

They loved BFTB

Even though it was mega inaccurate

[hollow coral]

because they gave them mucho big tree

[sour furnace]

*countries

she did India as well

[fresh cedar]

Indonesia is big too

[hollow coral]

And they could have ataturk survive

I think

[fresh cedar]

For like a month longer

[coral drift]

Like, it is a popular misconception in Indonesia that Sukarno is actually pro-fascism.

Very popular myth that the only things debunked it was Sukarno's 1930s writings, which i'm certain not a lot of Indonesians have read it

[fresh cedar]

I tried streaming when that came out and all I had was Turkish viewers 😭

[sour furnace]

At least no one seems to bring up Notonindito and the PFI...

[hollow coral]

https://tenor.com/view/turkey-turkiye-kartopu-kediler-100yil-gif-9621357169450001212

[fresh cedar]

Even dated a Turkish girl as a result from it

[thick edge]

Lmao

[coral drift]

Yeah

I mean, a vast majority of Indonesian players who did not join my server did not even know who Thamrin is

[fresh cedar]

To be fair Thamrin sounds like an exotic spice

[coral drift]

Despite there are books about Thamrin's deeds in the Volksraad, and he is a National Hero

[sour furnace]

fym, we learnt about Thamrin in grade school

[coral drift]

Not in my Indonesian History Book (2013 Curriculum version)

I had to read Ong Hok Ham, Ricklefs, and Kahin's books first

[fresh cedar]

Wait Lily, did you do other trees? I could’ve sworn you did

[hollow coral]

Ok but monarchist path should have precedent

[fresh cedar]

I thought she did India too

[coral drift]

Like, it's weird tbh, Thamrin is very popular at Jakarta, as he was a Betawi (Jakartan native), and a major thoroughfare was named after him

[sour furnace]

hmm interesting, to be fair, most Indonesians I met think that Thamrin is just the name of a shopping mall😂

[coral drift]

Or that too lel. But barely anyone know his deeds

[misty geyser]

Normally I wouldn't comment on this but I don't want to take credit for something that's not mine. I only helped out near the end.

[fresh cedar]

That makes sense. Probably why I thought you did

I’ve seen your name around

Isn’t it public knowledge of who works on trees though?

Whoever did the Iraq tree, hugs and kisses

[coral drift]

Mhm, still remember when forum members defended her when things got too nasty there.

[fresh cedar]

Well yeah people shouldn’t be nasty to other people like that

Civil discourse or nothing imo

Atleast for game interactions

[coral drift]

Oh well, gotta go.
@sour furnace, don't repeat what happened back then please 😂 😂

[sour furnace]

dw abt it

[fresh cedar]

Chat is this real

[coral drift]

Pointing out implausible things and suggesting more sensible alternative contents is one thing

Straight-up hate comments/contents is another

[fresh cedar]

Silk Road Fatigue is real

[coral drift]

Wait a minute

Japan by 1941-3 (forget when) is already turned fascist

So Sukarno would still be fascist?

(shower thought, sorry)

[sour furnace]

I hope not...

At least feature Soepomo as a Japanese collaborator leader, it actually makes sense for him to be fascist(ic)

Would also love to see Sukarno embracing Marhaenism in the revolutionary non aligned tree (and maybe and option for a coup by a military leader like Nasution if he went a step too far)

[pastel flume]

That's what I was thinking cause thats what happens with the reorganized china puppet.

[pastel flume]

1939 start date japan is still non aligned

[thorny shell]

Is there any content related for Malaya (whether that be decisions, events, or general improvements like MIO, portraits, leaders, etc)?

I saw that the federated states (selangor and negri were combined) and the Unfederated states (including Johor) (I feel like it’s relevant to note Johor since the northern Unfederated states (merged) will most likely play a role in Siamese content) were added as states alongside Penang (which I find silly, but it may tie with Siamese ww2 content? Idk, but adding it and not malacca is a strange choice without context) so I was wondering if they are getting any love

[pastel flume]

I would say it's probably similar how Vargas is populist at the start but can flip non aligned and later fascist

[thorny shell]

If yes then I hope there isn’t a new portrait for Shenton Thomas. His current portrait is amazing. Although if there is then I can just make a mod that makes his portrait the old one again

Also really glad with the additions of the rest of the Malaysian states. Makes modding Malaya way easier by not having to make new states

Although the borders of the states are a bit wonky. So ig that I will still have to do manually.

[fresh cedar]

I just want a list of the new Indonesian releasables and if they get content 😔

If even just portraits

[pastel flume]

they showed some of the releasable leader portraits in the forums

[fresh cedar]

On which post? The most recent one was made on 5/27

[pastel flume]

idk

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/developer-diary-the-dutch-east-indies.1923917/post-31314904

it was the first one about indonesia

[fresh cedar]

Yeah I just found it

[pastel flume]

and then the governor generals of the dei

[fresh cedar]

Very nice they got images. Wonder if they’ll have special spirits/formable flavor

[pastel flume]

probably just nusantra like the malaysian ones in ncns

wish they added sultanate of sulu

[fresh cedar]

I mean like if they take all of DEI they can form it. Similar to German kingdoms and Germany

[pastel flume]

or have the phillipines core or claim the sabah state if independent

[fresh cedar]

Whoever does the portraits nowadays is OP

[pastel flume]

sad that the PAOT releasables cant form austria hungary or germany

[fresh cedar]

Agreed

[pastel flume]

specifically sudeten forming germany

[fresh cedar]

Think releasables having formables is super underrated

[pastel flume]

galicia lodomeria and ruthenia should be able to form austriaa hungary

or ruthenia being able to core the rest of ukraine

[fresh cedar]

Tbh some German states should be able to form both Germany and AHE

[pastel flume]

they can only core west ukraine at most

[pastel flume]

true

also have austria hungary formable core galicia lodomerian states

its still just austrian empire borders

i do hope the new states in this update dont break old formables

turkestan is still missing states cored that were added in ncns

turan had a similar issue but was fixed

[fervent prairie]

Can someone explain to me why Kaiser Germany goes Four Year plan???
It's a path mainly for 1940, 1941 or even 1942 war.
The AIs economy will always fail and will mess over Hungary.
It also makse no sense lore wise.
A Germany that's gone through a Civil war. Will no longer be able to realistically do the MEFO Bills

This is stupid aswell...
I can't join Germany, because they aren't Fascist???

Hungary should also get ways to encourage Germany to supprt giving them all of Transylvania.
As that would make getting all their states less cancer to get for the achievement.
As Hungary can't get Burgenland and South Transylvania at the same time.

You want to get Burgenland? You have to do the focus for Transylvania first.
Oh you're not in Germany's faction? You'll only get the North. But you have enough time to get Burgenland before Anschluss.
You rush for all of Transylvania first?
Sorry you have to do 4 focuses to join their faction first. Which makes you just too late to get Burgenland.
This is with ONLY doing the Political focuses

What could fix this, is by changing the order of the focuses.
By letting "Demand Burgenland" be a focus in it's own order with Demand Carpathian Ruthenia. Both side by side each other in the tree, but only one being needed to do "Proclaim Greater Hungary".
This could let the player do said focus and not feel rushed to do Transylvania

This creates a big issue for Germany tho.
For some dumb reason. They cannot do "Autarky Achieved", if they don't OWN all it's cores.
Switzerland takes a state from Austria way before Anschluss.
Hungary could get Burgenland.
Germany gets cores on both these states.
Germany gets cores on North Schleswig but doesn't get it after defeating Denmark.
This whole thing can be fixed by changing it from needing to OWN all it's cores, to Control all it's owned cores.
It makes no sense that Germany can't achieve Autarky because it doesn't own every core state.
Which basically any nation can have happen to them from content of other nations

@floral scaffold

[fervent prairie]

By the way Hungary's Demand Transylvania focus is a bit broken.
They get two sets ofevents from the focus at the same time. Both about the very same thing. Which can quickly lead to Hungary getting the states and then a war ensues right after

[vocal hull]

Idk i kinda got autarky achieved easily by just annexing everything and getting 0 allies

[lament quail]

I still find wild that we are going to have focus paths for countries like Indonesia before Mongolia

[harsh hull]

We'll either do that, or get HOI5

Time will see how those dice land

[hollow coral]

Both equally deserve a focus tree

[harsh hull]

<@&846894118219022336>

[rocky drift]

they really are everywhere huh

[coral drift]

We'll have to wait again for Van Mook and co.

[crimson tartan]

I can already hear people complaining about focus tree for a country that only 3,5 people have played for in the entire history of hearts of iron franchise

[crimson tartan]

bro what 😭 🙏

[swift cloak]

ngl good for him tho

Mussolini died for him to lived

[crimson tartan]

that's some heartbreaking story here ❤️ 😔

[coral drift]

W for the programmers

[coral drift]

Lol, completely forgot today is this dude's birthday
https://fixupx.com/historia_id/status/2060718691978031568

Historia.ID (@historia_id)

30 Mei 1894 Hubertus Johannes van Mook lahir di Semarang. Dia mengusung federalisme bagi Hindia Belanda dengan Republik Indonesia masuk di dalamnya. Namun, dia akhirnya mendukung agresi militer Belanda.
︀︀www.historia.id/article/langkah-van-mook-di-tengah-amok

**🔁 1 ❤️ 2 👁️ 210 **

FixupX · May 30, 2026, 1:43 PM

[keen totem]

Mussolini walked so that he could run

[fresh cedar]

Indonesia lowkey more bc wtf Mongolia expanding into?

[keen totem]

mongolia didnt get involved until 1945 when the soviets invaded manchuria

[fresh cedar]

Lame gameplay

[keen totem]

an indonesia tree is more warranted than mongolia

[fresh cedar]

That’s what I’m saying

Like yeah monarchist Mongolia would go hard but be kinda unbearable

[crimson tartan]

Sweden, Portugal, Switzerland, Turkey, South America, Afghanistan: 🫢

[keen totem]

i mean i guess expansion into china would be possible early game

[fresh cedar]

Ngl Mongolian beef was probably more involved than Mongolian military

[fresh cedar]

My only thought too, and Tanna Tuva

[keen totem]

tannu tuva should obviously get cores on the entire planet

it's the least we could do for the glorious nation of tuva

[fresh cedar]

On the topic of small countries, did Iceland always have a 25% non core manpower political advisor?

[keen totem]

i wouldnt know, ive never played iceland

[fresh cedar]

If you manage to expand it actually has cracked buffs

[lament quail]

Iceland it's the only focus tree that's worse than the generic one

[fresh cedar]

Doesn’t one of the Chinese warlords already form Great Yuan?

[lament quail]

Yes, but the fact the closes thing you can make to a Mongol empire successor is a Chinese warlord and not actual Mongolia is silly

[fresh cedar]

Yeah for sure

[lament quail]

Also playing said warlord is a massive pain, as you neeed to start as another one, release it, win a civil war invilving some RNG and then start to do your uisual warlord stuff a year later then everyone else (while being weakened by the civil war)

[fresh cedar]

I never successfully played Kumul

[lament quail]

funny thing it's not even the country that gets the most cracked cavalry bonuses

[fresh cedar]

Is Calvary the play with it?

I never play Calvary

[lament quail]

yes

Cavalry is good (after the doctrine updates) if you get come coutnry buffs to it
~10% attack/defence make it stand up to infantry pretty well, more can make it quite strong

[still pewter]

Use cavalry with the Ma cliques

[fresh cedar]

Tried it with Calvary. Even with buffs Calvary was still terrible

[pastel flume]

Best calvary nation is mughal Afghanistan with the quami

Plus with bba so you can have a maxed out calvary advisor

[weary sorrel]

<@&846894118219022336> forgot one

[lavish verge]

paradox forgot new zealand was on the map

sad

[hollow coral]

nah they are getting a bunch of industrial focuses

[pastel flume]

They gave a peak during a stream

I swear they probably removed the 6th research slot sadly

https://tenor.com/view/knowing-better-kb-know-better-gif-25459195

[brittle venture]

ngl thatd suck

looks like they didnt

tho maybe they stopped you from getting broken air spawn in :(

that would also suck

[cosmic stag]

hello casey

[pastel flume]

Don't be fooled it one of the research focuses could give research buffs instead

[brittle venture]

nah it looks fine

[pastel flume]

That's what they did in the demicratic path in gtd with the brain drain focus

[brittle venture]

i have a lot of nzl hours ok

it looks normal

[brittle venture]

im more concerned about them patching out funny 1936 e3

[thorny shell]

Looks generic

[cosmic stag]

i dont like how ALL nations in hoi4 have different amount of research slots

[thorny shell]

It should be that way tho

Obviously Bhutan won’t have the same research capabilities as Australia and etc

[cosmic stag]

alr

[crimson tartan]

wait until it gets its own focus tree bro

it will be the first nation to research nuclear weapons

[thorny shell]

If all nations had an equal amount of research slots that’d mean it was as technologically advanced as uk which is silly

[thorny shell]

The Dragon Egg

[crimson tartan]

+1 research slot is not a game changer

[thorny shell]

It doesn’t make sense from a historical pov

[green scaffold]

it is a game changer

[crimson tartan]

moreover, thousands of research bonuses via focuses, techs sharing etc is a bigger problem

[brittle venture]

it is literally

[green scaffold]

no you're right. research should be affected by your eco

[crimson tartan]

techs doesn't matter at all
period

😠

[thorny shell]

Ik hoi4 is not all about accuracy but it still does the bare minimum in trying to portray what the case was irl and giving shitty nations like Bhutan and Nepal the same amount of research slots as uk and etc is pure fantasy

[brittle venture]

this upsets general balance more, but extra research slot is a game changer

[green scaffold]

you should be able to pay civs for more research

[pastel flume]

Yeah but the amount of things that you have to research always seems to increase in every expansion

[cosmic stag]

uhm

idk

[thorny shell]

Does it?

[pastel flume]

Especially when gtd came out

[brittle venture]

OP

[green scaffold]

base research speed should be like

non existent

[crimson tartan]

then usa is gonna research nuclears in june 1936

[green scaffold]

no

[brittle venture]

mildawn, just ends up that you research ahead of time even more

[green scaffold]

base research speed non existent

then you pay civs

[brittle venture]

cuz like why care

[green scaffold]

to have it the same as now

[crimson tartan]

we should not have civs as currency

[green scaffold]

i mean it can be CGs

[cosmic stag]

CGs?

[pastel flume]

If you have bba and nsb you have to also research all the individual parts if the country your playing doesnt have any and then gtd added more radio research, ncns added rangers, theres the railway guns and other train tech, etc

[green scaffold]

consumer goods

[pastel flume]

Though the nuclear research was cut a lot by switching to the facilities

[cosmic stag]

oh alr

[thorny shell]

I can’t recall a single time I’ve researched rangers or radio beyond level 2

[crimson tartan]

you don't have to research it

[cosmic stag]

i wonder if hoi5 will have a GDP system

[thorny shell]

Millenium dawn is that way

[crimson tartan]

like
radio has been always in the game iirc
rangers are uuuuuuh who cares about it
railway guns - only if you have free research slot

you know strategy is about making choise

[cosmic stag]

yes ik

[thorny shell]

Radio is important for planes iirc but aside from that there isn’t much use for it afaik

[crimson tartan]

tanks

[thorny shell]

I stand corrected

[crimson tartan]

i don't know why people are upset about "too many" techs
it's a strategy game after all

[cosmic stag]

well yes

[thorny shell]

Bcuz there’s already a lot of things u have to worry about

I think the issue with it is it just adds onto the things u need to constantly be aware of

[crimson tartan]

well.... yes

priorities

[cosmic stag]

The Assault rifle and mbt/modern tank techs should both be SPs

[brittle venture]

sucks for planes

[plain elm]

Latest Dev Diary
https://pdxint.at/3LIBPSz

[meager frigate]

Very cool

[quartz bronze]

Let's go baby. Peace conference change. No more having the ai screw you over or do something to make you rage.

[mossy void]

A very good addition

[quaint wren]

We need more HRE for the GOD

[harsh oyster]

Ezzz

[glad cobalt]

maybe now i can actually get my cores as greece

[plain elm]

https://tenor.com/view/darth-sidious-star-wars-we-shall-have-peace-gif-14407024

[solid gyro]

It’s needed

The ai is awful at peace conferences

If Italy take northern Scotland and nothing else on me one more time 😭