#hoi4-general
1 messages · Page 114 of 1
the ai makes it so even with 2 ships u can invade britain or paratroop them
you need to atleast damage if not destroy enough of the british fleet so you can even land
they always move their fleet somewhere
not really
the UK actually doesnt anymore
they do
i literally did it yesterday with germany they had 1 ship in the channel
they always keep the right side guarded
they do
with every single DLC being on
convoy raid any other area
but the irish side they let drop a lot
Thry were having tea time
usually it works if u have 30+ subs
anyways i dont really play majors and i dont play in europe so
thats a little rarer
You should play as Belgium
i dislike playing anything else than europe
not rly theres always naval invasions in africa etc
usa??????
extremely boring
theres no way u have never played usa
Usa is outdated
then go fascist
play fascist usa
usa is boring af though
oh guys look at my massive industry from the start of the game!
idk i like to play modded france the most i think
Still boring
look at how i win without doing literally anything!
kind of
it takes a lot of motivation to play usa
buff everyone
what's funnier is invading usa
With 2 width divisions
it still fun to just blow up the entire british navy
only works if its 1937/1938
Just nuke all of japan
yeah idk invading usa is annoying if u dont go mass mob
BIT OF A BOOBOO, HUH, ADOLPH
nah invading usa is easy
you take the entire east coast and then they lose everything
after 43 not rly
So many questions...
the thing is
it really is lmao
usa has a ton of subs
good luck getting there, pendejo
ah you see i built a navy to crush theirs
no i
no idea how pavel is leading australasien
usually invade in 40
He failed in Poland so he went to Australia ig
i said if i don't go mass mob
It's my friend's screenshot but if you go Romanov Poland and get Wojtek you can release a random island somewhere which is lead by a polar bear
i dont play mass mob
what island
ive never even went down it a single time
Probably somewhere up north
I don't remember
jan mayen?
they fold instantly if u mass mob
attu island?
Probably
I own most of Europe now
I mean, just get Wojtek and search for this flag in occupied territories if you own all the islands
Yeah it's Jan Mayen
whats the tag
OH COME ON ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE 😭
I have no idea probably jan?
JAN i believe
its not compatible tho
i can't find a hoi3/victoria 2 style map mod anywhere that supports latest version
But considering you core population is 10 people...
if you actually do it with poland to get it legit you actually get about 3k maybe a bit more
Really?
Doesn't Jan Mayen have 10 people?
oh you're right
the state without the event yes
Oh ok
let me get the dusty save file rq
Ima do a Jan Mayen WC
Luxembourg one is almost done and I don't want to finish Kuwait one
based way to play hoi4?
I just listen to something on YouTube(news or something historical normally)
eh dont find the file anymore most likely fell into the abyss
let me create it rq with the console
Sad
That's what happens to the world when Luxembourg forms the EU (I'm playing on historical btw)
tho you dont start with the core which means you have the console you have to use
crazy painting on that newspaper btw
im looking through some TFR stuff and some of their banners go so hard
its from the anime mod
i am using
You can release yourself as Jan Mayen as Wojtek, no?
Morning
yes once wojtek becomes the king of poland and control jan mayen, jan mayen becomes a core on the island
Oh ok
but they for some reason loose it once they are released
so again you might have to use the console to play confortably
to give yourself a core on that island
Damn
7k core pop doesn't matter ig
But no factories does tho
ye but full build slots
Actually 0 cores WC sounds funnier
Pain
italian east africa is even more funny
The leader is insane
Imagine if it could form the Horn of Africa
would be stupid, and i would love it-
But you can't play as it without the console and I like playing on ironman
i dislike ironman mode due to my laptop sometimes crashing mid game
I pretty much only play on ironman
well i dont due to system instabilty like said earlier
Guess I gotta use it for IEA WC
But you can turn your non ironman save into ironman somehow
So ig I can do that
one reason why i use the anime mod for portugal especially:
Idk who that is
are you living behind a rock?
guess its valid then
Nah
So is NZ coming to the theater pack dlc or is it just Siam, indo and Australia, because NZ desperately needs a rework
i meant valid that you dont know it
I'm pretty sure no NZ
But everyone hopes NZ does get a tree
Or some kind of rework at least
if you arent in the anime scene/games its valid to not know characters
Yeah
Would be nice if one of the community teams were able to clarify
one question, who is even playing new zealand-
I would do a WC if it got an actual focus tree
why do i feel like invading russia, denmark and poland at the same time now?
I like to, you get good amount of research slots, and you are in a perfect spot for marines and island hopping
XD
great now i feel like invading fr*nce and poland
and cause pointless wars with russia
Can somebody explain what the Expansion Pass 2 is. Is it an dlc gives it new focusses what is it? Im watching the content reveal video and they are talking about the new paths? but how do i play the new paths cause idk which dlc gives the new paths. The entire video is so distracting idk what the hell it is!
germany you had perfect timing
Does the Expansion Pass 2 not have a preorder bonus?
No more Biplanes?
they will be biplanes at heart.
Thats a prob with the mod devs
They Just tend to forget about them lol
i see you kept the name for the superior, original smarties
Wha the actual f--k happened tò russia
its moldova now
Mate
No
Just take them out of misery please
Cant see a moldovian russia
Too cursed
As who
ratio
holy
someone help how tf do i make a battleship i tried a lot of ship designs nothing works idk how mtg works
u need to research heavy ships and then make a design of that
build up 10 and u got it
like this???
if this doesnt work im gonna cry
ive been trying to do this achievement since 1944
its 1947
😭
any pro here? i need some tip to unblock a situation: thare are more than 20 reich units packedup in single tile with a port, i keep bombing the port, block with 100% convoy raiding the see next to the port but they keep refilling. i had the time ti build a supply depot for my army and connected all at lvl 5 raiway: i have malus! they dont have malus to be packedup in a single tile and encircled
how do i unblock it? i have 1k CAS and some stratbombers to keep their facilities broken
Hello
thats a capital
should be enough so stalin can do something i think
they have local supply
I randomly got during my Austria WC
Just stole all the navies
Does it have battleship or battlecruiser armor
you suggest to use your navy to starve the german troops
Formed the EU
alreaady doin it
this is the ship design im currently making
itll take 3 months for 10 to finish
it's the very last portugal tile
will it work
i mean, at this point AI have def some boost
eh. i suggest to switch the 2 level one guns to one level 2 gun and add another secondary
its just for the achievement
i had the time to bring in the railway gun from italy lol
okay?
ok
now i've splitted in two and it's all orange, btw the game tells me that i have supply malus due to not having 100% control of the region
so the supply dep built, the lvl railway from capital to this place seems to help a little...
instead they are fine... hahahha
FINALLY
Hearts of iron 4
Yes
This Ethiopia Game is going bonkeds
It's aug 36 and I've gotten the troop difference down to 29 v 36
Made 2 very nice encirclements
Got all the advisors n Military staff I need
Got lucky with the scavenger Rolls, a mountaineer scav in the North and a desert fighter scav in the south
Only problem is my gun deficit
Welcome back
Hello
i own all dlcs now 🙏
And what did you lose?
30€
"What did it cost?"
Everything
Oh.
Lucky
it cost my soul
For all DLC?
i bought some dlcs in full price on another steam account that i cant use anymore so i still paid more practically
yes i bought the subscription
Ah nice
Wb!
😭
i know you used commands but i just cant prove it
no its 1966
oh
its soviet trash vs mothership aircraft
soviet trash vs cute aircraft
😻
rookie numbers
Motherships are also bad compared to supersonics
working on it
expensive, take off some heavy guns and replace them with anti-air
How do I cap France in late 1936 start 1937 as Germany?
paratroop into paris and a couple other victory points
just want the chilean empire achievement
But if I declare on them the join the Allies
yes
So do I get a war goal on Syria or Lebanon?
no
you will drag france into those wars who will drag the allies into the war
so it doesnt help
The join with a certain woord tension and there puupets give Les
So the dont join the Allies
what are minor countries with alot of manpower
anything in south america, india, china, spain
nothing in the balkans?
yugoslavia is annoying to play
No?
then what answer do u expect
So much playstyles
could do greece and form byzantium
Yes
takes 10 billion years
or you go to war with the allies
??
hungary into austria hungary?
uhhh
you can get the war with turkey done fast
tò
dont u need more
all the way to romania
Listen It atucorrects It like this the f--k can i do
otherwise its just taking turkey
vietnamese?
I dont know myself
vietnamese keyboard does that as well sometimes
i just dont have autocorrect on because of that
Nuke France.
Do I cancel the mefo bills?
Keeping them good but you gotta pay attention to your consumer good factor
Honestly though just do prioritize economic growth if you can’t be bothered
If you like late war games peg is better
I'm trying to spoed run France btw
Keep mefo then
Build some infrastructure then mils day 1
mefo is 100% better for early war
Already doing mils
So canel or na ?
I always cancel it
Cus I don't pay attention to consumer goods
keep them if you want to have the most production/factories for France
do the price controls decision, take gold from Poland France etc when you kill them
How?
Speedruning para troopers rn
MEFO Bills for early strength and quick wars, economic growth for alt history and late wars
Ok
Ah
Do I hire the mefo bills architect guy ?
Yes
schlat
Whatever his name is
Hjlmar
JSchlatt?
do we call this desperation?
Jamal?
Hjalmar
Yeah
Jamal Schlacht
Lmao
How much tension for France to join the Allies?
I think it happens regardless of tension?
No
Ah
Both can happen
Do o hire him?
Nah that ones quite bad
Ok
Germany is undoubtedly now the strongest nation to be with in hoi4
yeah, that was about the expected outcome
The four year plan or the other one ?
should i buy aat or gotter first
Explain
There is a reason to why the allies wins 80% of the time germany need skills
Germany is 100% the strongest individual nation
So does every other country
It completely screws your early Game abilities
I mean there is an argument just barely for Soviets because Germany needs some allies I guess
It's better late, and for non-historical
No not really but now im more on mp
Sp is easy as hell
I'd say soviets are stronger in a vacuum
ai suck
I see it the de buffs 
I always do recovering and it works
Do you just battleplan everything
No cause im not an idiot with 10 hours on hoi4
evryone not impressed D:
What to do after the first mefo bills
Yeah but they have zero army xp zero research and less stats the only thing they can do better is battleplan I feel like
You can work with 2m MP
Chinese Attachée solves any Army XP issues
I do that almost every single game
It really doesn’t
Even with volunteers to Spain + Spain army advisors + wars with the Baltics and Finland you might not have enough for full doctrine + templates + designs by war if you do anything other than mass mob
I may have to do this, i usually do one for spain
No
By 41 for Soviets but yeah
They dont have army xp and similar eco to ger
and i was so proud of myself
When are the Soviet buffs coming out ❤️
I want that so much but i cant play poland well enough to last a german invasion
Yeah
I think I can do it, now that I know how to Play Ethiopia
2032
they didnt invade me lol
am to shit at this
But also, Just turn historical focuses off
XD
yeah thats the way lol
Oh my boy went Cossack?
If Soviets just got like some reduced doctrine cost focuses, another research slot, and a starting land warfare facility
That would be peak
wdym cossak?
Never!
The Cossack King
Fascist monarchist path
You forgot pdx hates the allies
nah
@zinc light I did not cancel the mefo bills for 1x what now ?
oofs
I stopped doing ahistorical when i played australia once and had 2 research slots all the way up to 1945
You’re so right another 10% production efficiency cap to Germany
🔥
Because there was zero wars happening so no world tension 🥀
Pdx pls just dont make australia reliant on world tension
-10% output cost actually
Stronger
Idk it’s just not the same vibe smh
Why not both?
hire this man
This guy made the germany tree
Lmao
god DAMN.
bloody hell
forgot to paste the image
anyway
if you find this bad you dont want to see the vichy french one-
How many times before I need to cancel the mefo bills?
i never said its bad
i mean
i cant say that
You’re not supposed to cancel them
Oke
if you do the four year plan never cancel the mefo bills
also i might have underrestimated just how many troops can pull out there ass from the russian front
i played anime portrait mods twice
i stopped playing with them for a reason
to put it very, very, very lightly indeed
the humble cas:
i tend to not even care about portraits if i barely know the characters
i dont have much yet
some of them are super suggestive anyway
thats the problem
then get some, time is on your side
this one i think is still okay since it is also one of the most fitting still
i just ignore the overly suggestive ones
i dont
i do
as well
i mean.
why are you playing anime portrait mods anyway
you can just play some anime on your second monitor
how are these still alive-
...
i once again remind you i am a mod in that discords server
discord mod
(i never asked for it again)
you never told me that
i aint doing shit there i just have the role i never even asked for-
you can just quit
?
being a volunteer mod is crazy because ur just doing unpaid work
How do I make a prideeof the navy I'm vanilla
meh i still have some power with it also its a small community so i manage
i mean you consented to it but you'd think such a job would merit some form of compnesation
hi vanilla im dad
unpaid work is the best work fr
i notice i produce the best art when i dont have to follow a deadline
no thats a class i named
converted cruisers
fair
Don't have that
20 planes is crazy
i tend to name my stuff
most likely a man the guns feature
i think its a man the guns thing
quality over quantity
There adding that dlc to vanilla right?
i wouldnt play base game hoi even if im given it for free
its just stale
same thing with cities skylines 1
i had that for free but i went to buy full cs2 anyway
you can have both quality and quantity you know?
980 cv planes 🤑
Best German General for paratroopers?
paratroopers suck
period
if you want to crush the uk you do it with marines
8 marine and 8 mountaineer battalions with elevate the marine doctrine
and 1 line anti tank for the fun
France
why do you even bother to cheese france bro
you can just roll them over
they're a nothingburger anyway
its literally faster to push through the low countries than to set up paratrooper orders
You can use them to get epic encirclements or to half the enemy's org
lazy
But paratroopers to cap countries are lame
yup
But there is fun in encircling troops with them
paratrooping is ultimately just an ic waste
hi jon athan hru
id put them into 20k soft attack tanks
Im doing fine, you?
im good listening music
depends
And have them go behind enemy lines so I can then quickly link up with the tanks
if you paradrop every frontline state and then battleplan it youll encircle everyone and win
I usually have like 50k guns or more in stockpile anyways
I once had a game where I had 100k Shermans in stockpile
Because I didn't need more than my 24 36 width tank divisions
Kaiserreich's -20% tank cost or whatever is peak
its more
you can get to negative cost but you have to be above 0 to produce
US heavy fighters got nerfed in the MP submod but are busted too
like extremely
because the uh strat bomber MIO gives like 450%? air attack
iirc
and you can add the trait so its applicable to HFs
I just caped frace do I take everything?
it depends
?
did you took all at the treaty?
Yes
if you can yes
100% score
why is the server icon like the spongebob title card
No dlcs
Because its cool
ok
Who wanna play hoi multplayer ?
Because Spongebob Is goated
Man the guns eats my fps
Did u just buy man the guns
nope
This a good tank template?
i got it for free
No
but what can i do against the lowest fps?
Its 1937
yeah it is
thats the first time it ever happend
Better wait to 1938 than do what you want
Do i steal the gold of France ?
Yes
Smart choice
FPS map mod
And delete small countries
i really didnt feel like waiting for years so i can have a decent fleet
Lower graphics
those who wait:
U don’t need tanks in 37
Well that is ship building for you
Ok
its a practice game damit its not meant to be serious
The wait is worth it
my actual game is gonna be focused on air
waiting 5 years to build a fleet only to sink all of the british and american fleets in half a year
this is meant to be a kind of Coastal fleet not a blue waters navy
notice how most of my ships are stolen
dont steal
my mom taught me stealing is bad
hi
dont listen to her
How to cap the uk ?
pray
Paratroopers and marines?
you cant
depends
well you need a navy for that
do you have a navy?
ofc not
the french navy isnt a navy
i mean you can sink all of them to make a makeshift bridge across the english channel
can i add ranger units and templates or should i wait till PDX releases the Ranger unit themselves?
its an okay navy
and you can use it well
i am for example converting the worst of the french battleships (2) into carriers
that isnt a navy, thats a collection of boats
whenever i get bad ships i just click the little red trash bin button
paratroopers def then
Don't have DC on pc
answer this please
fair enough
Cant take Navy's btw cus. I dlc
i have no idea how to answer that sorry
alr
whoever sees this as a navy should be sentenced to a historical switzerland game
create a puppet and intergrate it. easy
give it convoys since your getting those back anyways
holy shit
Which uk city's you need to cap them ?
London fr fr
Got 10 paratroopers
Basically the whole England and wales
accurate?
This game needs more cats.
Remember kids, carriers need capital ships to defend them
And then those ships need screens to protect them
i have the shitty french, brazilian and spanish fleets
1:1:6 ratio minimum
those have enough capital ships
More screens the better
well but you cant convert those into carriers
they all have armor on their ships which is very costly to convert
you could convert some italian cruisers to carriers because they have no armor
i did convert the ones i could which were those
(had 2 the second one isnt done yet)
not the lorraine
that has like a heavy 2 gun and other expensive stuff
there conversion stuff litterally only took like 4 months
thats a lot..
still faster then researching and building new carriers
btw
if you ever steal ships
Me when I refit the ranger class and it takes 100+ days so I can add MIO stats, radar, and another hamger
click on them
change the MIO
and now you can use all modules and the hull
anywhere
oh right i forgot you could do that
Wait hol up, can you apply up to date MIOs by doing that
no
Or do you need to refit
Okay, I was going "I didn't need to refit my ships for MIOs?
is it joever guys?
What decision do I do?
hang
always hang
not the shittiest laptop brand you can have-
hp = hinge problems
Health problem
nah the meme is and will always be hinge problem
hinge, problems
This is why when I get my almost 2k check from the college, I'ma get a steam deck for gaming.
nope, "laptop" hinges
Crazy.
Now, what do I do?
Disband
A good mp Is Always a good mp
guys how do i win the balkan war as greece in GWR
w france as usal
Do I dismantle the Maginot line?
Just wait for Bulgaria to smash the ottomans
why would you
i have them to here
OHHHH
what do i need to capture for the peace deal to fire
Kaissereich
no, GWR
Because thats how peave deal works?
Ok.
it's a scripted peace
mp?
Manpower
Oh
Why do u have your hours in your name
So which decision?
idk i saw someone else with them
they ain't even accurate anymore
I would Just go either for the coast or directly Sofia
To cap them fast
the scripted peace fired
he has 1500 hours in life (
i had to take all of eastern thrace before constantinopole
Megali enjoyer?
reduce is always better, you dont get any negatives out of it
Its the new trend
how aint my laptop dying-
and why is it open that long
I BARELY DID SHIT IN ITALY-
chat i figured out navy before 200 hours 😎
because i forget to turn my laptop completly off, i just closed it
Explain to me too( I have 36 hours)
light cruiser go brrr
and the eventual carrier*
Destroyer?
dont listen to the destroyer people
destroyers are garbage
massive stinky poopoo destroyers
they arent if your fleet is coastal focused
@sudden thistle this is why you're my favorite person in ehre
Btw u should join the server in my username
Can i request a person be banned from the discord for racism in a multiplayer HOI4 game hosted on here?
Question let’s say you guys start a country with less than 20 factory’s what do you do? First built factories and then anything else?
cant sorry, no slots left
depends on the country
Greece?
Ping mods
make sure to do your focus that gives you free factories if you have good relations with majors
you won't have an economy without it
Build only dockyards
Trust
just hold that one one shitty tile that is impossible to break north of athens with shore bombardment from your massive navy
clearly
yea ok
Mils
Ok now should I get the dlcs or at least subscribe to them for a months bc no money no honey? I’ve seen for example Greece you have the options to rebuild the big idea which is the Byzantium. In general dlc will have a boost or easier start for some countries?
hey I'm just saying, it's not impossible
sometimes other times it causes you to die because other countries get focuses to conquer you
you should get NSB, BBA, LaR and while ur at it, gotterdammerung
the only 4 worth getting if ur on a tight budget
honestly gotter is probably the least worth dlc
yes but it's cool
vwrmany
Germany
you get a bunch of stuff for post 1942 stuff that you can only play with as majors
As Irak should I play historical or not?
My budget is:I don’t have boxers to wear
if u dislike gotterdammerung, then grab aat
@fair horizon
oh that's really tight
get uh
no dlcs
ill buy the Expansion pass 2 next month
!!
Play historical as Albania
the bell tolls for YOU.
no
Aint even got a focus tree 😭
its been a year, they're back at it
IM SCARED
they want a rematch
I am not that broke I just don’t spend money in a game, I usually just buy more games, Rn I only play with 2 other friends and every time we play the join Germany and team up so it’s like 5v1 for me that’s why I was thinking maybe subscribe to dlcs for a months
hi SCARED im dad
didn't u leave
ofcourse stalin needs more guns.
dad...
It’s a matter of time till Italy knocks on Albanias door
ur back..
It’s not that bad
Nah
so i give them the shit i got from the others
im leaving again
hoi4 needs money bro
u gotta buy the dlcs
or ur not getting ur money's worth
so i give them the shit i got from the others
ok
Hoi4? No money? 😂
my life was fine without you
rofl
My friend is Albanian and the other is Romanian and I am Greek, first games we got our country’s and the Albanian was crying for help because of italy🤣
Thats like going to north korea and saying to kim jong un that you hate him and his family
war thunder, try not to buy GE challenge
i think steiner cant save them anymore
I have 400 hours on wt and spent about 0,99 euros on it
how
that aint shit yet
bro I bought ge on my first 20 hours
What's the best preferred tactic?
lmao
Breakthrough, masterful blitz, tactical withdrawal, guerilla warfare, backhand blow
I was NOT grinding 1.0 for a day straight
Hahah I got rank 4 all tanks Germany and rank 5 Japan 3 jets
Do u play wt? nice
No money grind is the shitiest
ong
dont know whats happening in the balkan, but i dont want to know anyways-
Fr, but the key is creating good lineups
My hearts hurts seeing this picture
It’s the Balkans
It’s normal
that's not the key
the key is buying more golden eagles
Average messy frontline
<@&846894118219022336> i need to report a member of the community for being racist and extremely rude in a game to me during an Alt-history modded game i joined, can someone please DM me for the screenshots and proof
Nah if u grind china ur fine cause has a small but powerful tree
ok
Another question, every public game in you 4 has people with 1k hours or it has new people too
If you want to report someone you can make a ticket with the @grizzled delta and send all the proof there and we'll deal with it
Dm @grizzled delta to make a ticket, reserve pings for immediate issues
Can u rephrase that
I'm here not knowing what to say looking at his question LMAO
Both
"every public game in you"
I think he’s asking if the games here have people with 1000 hours normally or people who are new to the game
I was thinking of playing some games yk with random people but then I thought I will get capitulated in the first few minutes. I don’t think new people will be playing multiplayer
Another question" He proceeds to state something
average "italy collapsed" moment
oh ok u mean hoi4 mp
new players are common
for casual mp
I know my English is another level for you guys and you can’t understand, some day with a lot of lessons you will catch up 🤣
Italy could be competent but failed miserably
Casual is fun
Is it?..
but comp mp is usually full of genshin impact player relatives
A lot of new ppl play
The tryhards have their own servers
That’s what I wanted to know
yep
Good to hear
You can join if u want :p
lmao
bro hoi4 players cant read just remember that
They have to pay me to join
we will catch up?
okay
thats what she said
I'll study english
Sounds like a stereotype
Theres yearly tournaments if youre invited by a team
whats english
if it is its proven true every time i ask for help 
i only speak discordian
idk some vegetable or something
throwing discordian gang signs
mods
nuke this guys spine
the pray emoji is the pinnacle of the discordian language
😭 🙏 💔
what every comp mp soviet coop thinks they look like after encircling 1 romanian inf
The trinity
um
um
spended
so i guess i now have them
Truth nuke
it's okay
the more you feed paradox
me when i walk through a country with 1 division and take all their victory points
no step back and goterdurmungwegeghaeg is good
Belt incoming?
u should attend a quiz bee
assign trait: snaker
the two worst greeks alive at the time are the entirety of my army 😭
hello yalls
2 men do not equal 8 divisions
true that
bro what is that hairline 
european monarch drip bro
charles 2 was an european monarch too
Whats with monarchs and naming people like they are a film franchise
idk britian or something
receding hairline
lmao
chat the world should band together and make australia a naval superpower because it would be funny
They tries this irl
One of the reasons australia got colonized was for wood supply for the royal navy so it wouldnt have to come from the baltics
But it was deemed too poor quality for masts
Yankee built ships >
literally never heard of this
strong american trees 💪
what
like no joke thats where the cannonballs bouncing off comes from
i mean its not like australia has a lot of trees to begin with
ive never heard of australia being colonised for timber supply
Thats why the USS constitution is nicknamed "Old Ironsides"
They were colonized as a prison colony I think
Well it didnt work out lol
But it was one of the reasons they even initiated it
Controlled wildfires can make the trees and plants stronger
The aboriginals did a lot of them
did a quick search, its because australian hardwood wasnt good for masts because they werent flexible enough
