remove tiny piles and small piles from the game

[solid pollen]

Tiny piles and small piles used to be a giant pain to deal with, as you could encounter them everywhere (ore proc, random chemical byprod, random items for crafting, having amazon warehouses to handle the conversion in dusts, etc).

It never added depth to the game play, as to get them, a single crafting step is required. It's kind of fine if the recipes involving those are needed in very small quantities, but it quickly becomes annoying to deal with, and it was always associated with lag (input buffers used to add precise amount of tiny/small dusts to the amazon warehouses is super laggy due to constant sorting requests).

So we took the decision to reduce drastically their usage by doing the following:

• multiply the recipe until all the small/tiny dusts become full dusts (for some chemline recipes). We also took the decision to not yeet all the obsolete recipes back then to avoid bricking setups on the update. But now it's the time to say goodbye to those recipes.
• replace constant tiny/small with chance based outputs (what's now in the oreprocessing chain)
• tweak loots for chance based small / tiny dusts (an old example i documented here for those interested with the conversion process: https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1nxj_ZTDo1iUvtuY5t2Vd6DdwZZQ8apgH)

Despite our efforts, we still have some recipes left using tiny piles. So i would like to use this AOI to list each recipe like this (like the 2nd recipe for bio growth medium in the bacterial vat) so we can fix them, then ultimately remove tiny and small dusts from the whole game.

[dusk oak]

What does this mean for liquid xp recipes?

[solid pollen]

could always add specific items for manual crafting at the early game, but the autogenned tiny/small must go away

[distant prism]

There's also the plutonium/radon loop, which will need 8x more plutonium if the tiny dust recipe isn't there AFAIK

[solid pollen]

well, it's a loop, so initial investment for big profit. And the ratios are the same, it yields just 8 time faster with the full dust recipe. Given the staballoy construct are a thing, you can loop it quite easily. So it's a non issue

[iron current]

Think the only one i can recall is the nether star loop with salis mundus

[dusk oak]

I see so just a placeholder for those dusts or something to convert to full ones?

Like the grains bees have

[solid pollen]

more like small / tiny dusts, but only registered manually. So in code all the leftover ones will be the needed ones. Post MV tiny/small piles are irrelevant

[dusk oak]

Sounds good

[severe island]

i mean, there are almost no useful tiny/small dust in recipes results, the only case ive reused dust was the wrapped uranium/plutonium in the EIC. or to recycle tiny dusts from rockets plates during early game.

[dusk oak]

They are good for magic essentia

All i can think of really

[solid pollen]

doesn't they have the same aspects?

[dusk oak]

some of them are pure

and basically 9x output

[next bramble]

Don't forget the EEC outputs/mob drops, like the gallium from redcap sapper and others, the full dusts will need their drop/eec chance buffed an appropriate amount

[dusk oak]

that can be solved with chance

[solid pollen]

essentias aren't well integrated in this pack. Most of those are autogen, and too many stuff lacks essentia to them, or are wrongly balanced.

[rugged mango]

Tiny dusts are very important on the way the quark gluon plasma and magmatter automation challeges work

[solid pollen]

that can also be solved with dedicated placeholders or something. Those got used because they were free

[rugged mango]

Well, they will need to still be tiny dusts of the material because one if the main solution is using oredict to solve and pack these tiny dusts into big dusts

[next bramble]

Getting rid of the tiny ashes from the bbf will be big QOL improvement early game too

[dusk oak]

should be using blocks

[solid pollen]

tbh this is intended to force you to monitor them.

[barren wraith]

we can make that a chance output to a full ash with the block recipes always outputing it

[dusk oak]

damn buffing non block recipe :/

[severe island]

i have check my infra in order to see where i use tiny/smalldust:

• Seaweed ash dust (from seaweed to iodine),
• blizz dust from EEC (we should check the drop tables of mobs, like fire beetle, blaze, bliz,.),
• tiny dust of nether star (probably for nether star dup with nullcatalyst)
• tiny dust of infinty catalyst, this was for biovat
• recipe from the tiny dust of uranium 235 into tiny pile of uranium 235 in the compressor, (but this recipe also work with normal dust).

they will not be missed.

For the gluon magmatter puzzle, we can use nuggets or fluid version instead

[solid pollen]

that's exactly why we did the initial pass on deprecating them. dust packing is the worse mechanic possible. Packing is not interesting. It's just an intermediate step for the sake of it, and unless you use a stocking bus for every 16 dusts possible, you'll resort to a voltage buffer and cause lag to constant sorting of the items in this block. No matter how much you optimize, sorting items to collapse them in order to output them precisely each tick isn't free.

[next bramble]

Oh yeah the null catalyst recipe

[rugged mango]

Are the tiny dusts really hard to deal with currently?
I just have 1 amazon with an autopull bus in my main net with a oredict card and i never saw any tiny dusts in my system lol

[distant prism]

Staballoy gives uranium, not plutonium

[solid pollen]

that's the thing: invest in Pu, upkeep the loop with staballoy

[distant prism]

But you need to breed Pu 8x as long, or with 8x the nukes, that's what my initial point was

[barren wraith]

doesnt that prove that they are not needed if they can be automated so easily?

[rugged mango]

Storage bus with oredict card, just like your suggestion on that ore dict stocking bus

[distant prism]

Simply for the sake of removing that tiny dust recipe

[barren wraith]

less recipes to load on boot too

[solid pollen]

that works because you only avoid item mixing or if the input rate is even for each tiny/small.

the main automation point isn't how you handle the tiny dusts anyways

[rugged mango]

Well, i think they are useful when talking abt cost reductions and useful for automation challenges, otherwise they are useless

But idk if they should be compketelly removed, just removing all the natural sources of it should be a good solution

Some bacvat recipes use tiny infcat piles because otherwise it would be too expensive for example

[barren wraith]

we can probably keep a few if needed, like wrought iron for the early game

[distant prism]

Changing the radon loop tiny dust to nugget would solve the problem right there, thinking about it again

[rugged mango]

The new material system will be able to handle specific generation of parts like this

[solid pollen]

oh yeah let me just craft infi catalyst tiny dusts and deal with passiving this just because the game asks for too much bio growth medium and instead of removing the speed limitation, let's add bs automation constraints

multiply the recipe inputs / outputs and you'll have for your money

[distant prism]

idk I liked the automation challenge of compacting stuff like the nugget outputs from the Thermal Boiler, although those recipes have been changed to ingots already

[solid pollen]

it's not a challenge really

[rugged mango]

Idk, i personally dont see a reason for this big removal, automating this is just 1 singleblock for passive , and i was meaning to fix amazon to be able to unpack aswell

[solid pollen]

a crafter from EIO in a loop and you are set. You are a maintainer enjoyer? use patterns instead. Big automation challenge

[rugged mango]

I think just removing all natural sources is the best way

[storm marten]

Does this mean that chemrwactor recipes where the recipes with full dusts would be too big for an LV reactor simply won't run in one in 2.73?2.8.x?

[solid pollen]

i guess so

[storm marten]

:(

[rugged mango]

Theres a singleblock unpackager that does that

[storm marten]

Could we maybe keep the few dusts for the recipes where that is the case? Probably shouldn't be too many recipes idk?

[solid pollen]

yup, but i like EIO as you can set your recipe in it, you aren't limited to unpacker recipe maps

[barren wraith]

packager/unpackager dont show dusts as recipes in nei

[rugged mango]

Unpackager has no recipemap
It just act as a crafting table

[barren wraith]

ahh

[solid pollen]

if they serve a purpose early game why not. Post MV it shouldn't be.

[tulip garnet]

nuggets smells pretty illegal

[distant prism]

?

[tulip garnet]

another type of tiny pile of stuff

[young fossil]

my favourite peridito source nooo

[solid pollen]

new content to discover for me But the point still stands. It's a no brainer. We teach our players to do complex piping early on and then all of a sudden we add a "challenge" with tiny piles which is solved in like 10 s of thinking. The main challenge here is knowing about your options to do it

[storm marten]

Hmmm iirc the recipe for Glycerol iirc? in one of the Epoxy chains needs the tiny dust recipe to run in an LV reactor which I do use in my base, which would be post MV (although the recipe itself is LV) but it'd be still nice if it didn't just get bricked. Maybe make a post asking people which recipes woth tiny dusts are actually in use to be able to know which to keep?

[stuck crag]

On a related note, do double- to quintuplue-ingots have any use at all? I know some triple/quadruple/quintuple plates have recipes but i feel like even those you could just replace with double or dense ones. Always felt a little NEI bloat with those

[solid pollen]

if it's required post LCR and doable in it with a full dust, why even bother using slower machines? LCR is cheap.

[barren wraith]

all IC2 items will go away at some point

[rugged mango]

This problem is a no brainer yeah.

But magmatter showed a very interesting eay of using the tiny piles and i think trashing that is a waste considering other possibilities.

[distant prism]

Triple plates are used for implosion compressing at the very least

[storm marten]

Bcs you can make it pre LCR with that recipe

[solid pollen]

so it'd change its progression

[rugged mango]

How do you handle lathe output

[solid pollen]

that is a great question

[storm marten]

Maybe just keep the dusts which do have chemreactor recipes or smth? Like 99.9% of tiny and small dists probably don't have any other recipes than compacting tied to them and onlykeep those that do?

Wouldn't brick anything and still remove most of them

[stuck crag]

Turn it into a 50/50 duping slot machine, easy

[rugged mango]

Diabolical

And makes no sense

[storm marten]

Well you could also use an HV reactor but that line esp at the beginning you don't need that much of it, so it'd be nice to not need 4× the power for some steps than actually required until one gets the LCRs

[storm marten]

Like I said maybe keep all dists with other recipes than just compacting/expanding in the crafting table tied to them? And only delete those that son't have any?

[dusk oak]

Ye just keep the relevant dusts that serve a purpose and it should be good lol

[distant prism]

I just asked in general to get the viewpoint of more people

[dusk oak]

and rework the ones that can be of those

[little veldt]

getting that much plutonium early EV is a chore to say the least

[rugged mango]

I recently removed tiny and small piles from selenium line, one of the offending recipes.

Also when making LaB6 line for beamline, i thought it was very fun to need an amazon to pack the lathe outputs for recycling, its a very underused machine in lines, and was fun to build one for passive

[solid pollen]

i'd say sorry realism and void it? so you'd go from manual to automated, allowing a tradeoff between speed and poor crafting steps, so if used with maintainers with the planned rework you'd have to deal with constraints and dealing with a pool of files, and lathe would be mainly for lenses and co. For metal you'd go extruder / fluid solidifier anyways.

[distant prism]

That is a very significant LV balance change

[rugged mango]

Yeah

People lathe their steel to save some

[distant prism]

Especially for steel, which is forced at 240s per ingot per BBF at best

[solid pollen]

i need to think about that

[dusk oak]

25% full dust

[solid pollen]

either add a dedicated recipe for yielding back the small dust of steel, making it a desired small dust and exampt from removal

[rugged mango]

Tiny and small piles are like pollution, if we want to make pollution more relevant...

[solid pollen]

or add more use to the LV extrufer

[rugged mango]

I really dislike this removal as a universal thing. It doesnt seem to accomplish anything

[distant prism]

The point of it is the progression from manual crafting -> lathe -> extruder across 3 tiers

[solid pollen]

chance based recipes are here to be done in passive ways.

[barren wraith]

no circuit for faster speed, circuit for slower speed/more power to have a chance for output

[distant prism]

Yeah I think there are significant balance changes being included here when they don't really have to be

[solid pollen]

it's not a production machine, so chance based does not work here.

[storm marten]

Once again coming back to only removing dusts that don't have another recipe than compacting (dharc), it would also teach players to look ata the remaining dusts since all of them have at least some other way of acquiring them. Changing ore proc lines is fine imo, but stuff like Chemreacrors or lathes should be kept as is imo

[distant prism]

Lathes could be fixed by changing the recipe to 2 ingots -> 2 rods + 1 dust, but that wouldn't look right

And the lenses would still output the small dusts iirc

[dusk oak]

Well lathe isn’t main way of making rods to me and think it would be fine honestly

[distant prism]

It is in LV

[dusk oak]

Not like you use the byproduct

[distant prism]

And you definitely use the dusts

[dusk oak]

pattern it

[storm marten]

InLV you definitely di

[solid pollen]

that's the best angle of attack imo, postponing the changes for latter, and focusing only on the bloat. Except all metallic mats will have their usage in the lathe.

[dusk oak]

This is different

[storm marten]

There you could even do the 2x recipe with a fukl dust as output imo

Not as realistic but would remove a lot more ig?

Also stuff like nether quartz rods need the lathe iirc too

[dusk oak]

But chance byproduct changes nothing to do with production

[rugged mango]

This is just a ton of rebalance work to accomplish virtually nothing that isnt alr trivial

[storm marten]

Ik but it at least does balancing

[distant prism]

Chance byproducts do not work for the lathe

[rugged mango]

I love duping steel

[storm marten]

I think with law of large numbers it wiuldn't even be a dupe but slightly negative

[distant prism]

That's the thing, law of large numbers doesn't apply to steel in LV

[rugged mango]

What large numbers are you having in LV

[dusk oak]

Make it deterministic

[rugged mango]

Thats how it is rn

[dusk oak]

Lathe counts 4 cycles

[solid pollen]

that's the thing: if we want to clean up the pack from borringo and add actual stuff, we have occasionally to do stuff like it. Most of the time it's seemingless to the player (RA2, MUI, etc) but sometimes you just have to hit some of the balance. The autogen of recipes for bloat adds some loading time for only niche use cases. Removing 2 of the autogenned items would speed things up a bit.

[rugged mango]

As i said, the material system rework will add custom selection of generated things, so that can just be set as off for everything that doesnt have significance

No extra changes needed

[solid pollen]

yeah, it's only a nice side effect. But bloat must go away. It's the classical noob trap for any player. I'm sure we are able to achieve everything done by small dusts if we look carefully at them.

[marble scarab]

Rest in piss small pile of thorium

[little veldt]

Regarding the tiny piles for radon loop:

You need radon for EV emitter/sensor, which leads to the circuits for T2 rocket.

meaning the only source of plutonium beforehand is:
thorium > uranium > 5% chance at plutonium.

a stack of plutonium would need like ~1280 uranium, which is only a 30% chance at thorium so you'd need like 4-5k thorium..

my maths is probably way off, but it's a big change

[rugged mango]

You dont need plutonium for radon.

Use radium decay

.

[little veldt]

for the radon loop

[rugged mango]

You dont need that

Until later

[storm marten]

If you make many steel rods with the lathe, but anyway for some such events you need an expanded formula which I can't find rn, and in those 50/50 cases with 2x and .5/0x it should be negative with the rcprrect expanded formula

[distant prism]

It's not about needing

It's about removing the option people are using

[rugged mango]

Centrifuge more

[distant prism]

Then it's a balance change

[little veldt]

% for the decay

[rugged mango]

Thats very much enough

[solid pollen]

almost all the AOIs are balance changes

[little veldt]

what about the liquid xp recipes?

[marble scarab]

What if we go cursed way and make lathe output long rods? No dust, and its still a rod.

[solid pollen]

would be interesting

but pressing more the cutter at endgame

[marble scarab]

Or add configurable circutis: c1 cuts 1 ingot to long rods, c2 cuts 2 ingots to 2 rods and a dust

And mb "i dont care" c3 mode to cut ingot to rod and just void dust, but i don't know why

[rugged mango]

How to break dozens of patterns

[marble scarab]

Yea

[solid pollen]

if you pattern your small dusts in output that's so a "do not care" mode voiding the small dusts is fine

[rugged mango]

Adding circuits to lathe will basically just double or triple the amount of recipes

[solid pollen]

so adding circuit modes to allow more direct crafting like it has been done in the wirefactory is a bad thing? bloat recipe can go and reduce the pack load time good, but adding skips to long rod directly might be a good thing. It does not have to be in a lathe tho.

too bad if we claim back the loading time saved by yeeting small dusts.

[rugged mango]

Yeah i doubt the trade pays off

[distant prism]

1 ingot to 1 long rod is smart, by itself

[solid pollen]

AOI is here to discuss stuff, so implications of current iteration of the topic are brought to Dream and I. An AOI can die without being implemented. Essentially we want to be advised, so we can do proper decisions. From the current discussion i can probably already rule out the straight removal.

[distant prism]

I would vouch for that recipe

[rugged mango]

That is basically lathing without loss

[sly steppe]

lathe is what kept me from fully committing to this in 1.12, ive never came up with a solution there that i was fully happy with

[rugged mango]

Thing that was denied by bob when the multi lathe had precision mode

Cuz lathe is removing things from the material

It cant make a long rod

Only solution is 2 ingots to 2 rods + dust but thats such a duct tape imo

[solid pollen]

yeah

and i stand by it

if you lathe metallic rods in the multi you are going suboptimal

but lathe for long rods why not

[sly steppe]

at multi scale, long rod lathe removes almost all uses of the forge hammer

not all, but most

[solid pollen]

yeah

[sly steppe]

im trying to decide if thats actually a bad thing

its kind of unique in that forge hammer has forced relevancy at multiple later points cause of optical circuits and later splitting spacetime

and its not like lathe is overused or anything, both machines are underused in later game at least in terms of scale

[rugged mango]

People alr solidify instead

[sly steppe]

theres a long rod mold? what?

[rugged mango]

Yes lol

[sly steppe]

how long has that existed

[solid pollen]

yeah, and i find its texture a bit weird

[solid pollen]

years

[rugged mango]

At least 2 years

When i started playing it existed

[rugged mango]

And infinity ingots after the rework

[sly steppe]

it doesnt matter how many hours you play theres always something new to learn

maybe i actually do need to start that 5th sg run

[solid pollen]

it's why the fluid extractor/soldifier + lathe + extruder is confusing. You have better routes but you need to go in the NEI jungle

[sly steppe]

well if lathe could do long rods then that would be kinda solved for early game

hand saw to cut to rods + encouragement to make a cutter sooner

[solid pollen]

yeah

[sly steppe]

has anyone mentioned quark gluon plasma yet btw for tiny dusts

[solid pollen]

yeah Noc

[rugged mango]

I did

Its a big problem imo

It could output a big dust but i dont like that

And would break a lot of setups

[sly steppe]

one of the raw growth medium recipes is a tiny dust right

for inf cat

or maybe bio idr

[rugged mango]

Yes

[sly steppe]

imo thats the biggest problem one

[rugged mango]

Several bacvat recipes

Not just one iirc

[sly steppe]

now would be the time

since qgp is a gate material rn instead of a circuit line material like itll soon be

[rugged mango]

Also magmatter

[solid pollen]

endgame content is subjet to change. Changing for the sake of it is mean, but i feel it's one of those cases where we could just improve the base expected automation tbh

[sly steppe]

need cloud’s opinion since he made the automation challenge, may have ideas for other ways to do it

[marble scarab]

Yea, thats why i called that way "cursed", because it brutally murders the whole logic of lathing.

[rugged mango]

The buff lathing needed

[marble scarab]

But this is a solution. Not good one, but a solution

[velvet scaffold]

does anyone actually use the lathe for rods in LV

[marble scarab]

Yes

[velvet scaffold]

i always figured it was a noob trap lol

[marble scarab]

Noob trap if you dont make 4 lathes

[velvet scaffold]

i guess that's valid

the only material i care enough about to want to wait around for a less lossy but slow asf rod generation method for when im in LV is steel and that's still near useless because turning it back into ingots in LV is not trivial

i guess you could use a smeltery with a ton of faucets though if the dust is meltable in there

[distant prism]

1 faucet is enough, and yes that's how you're supposed to do it

[velvet scaffold]

doesn't it take a long time to solidify though

[distant prism]

Irrelevant, drop a redstone clock above the faucet and hopper the ingots into a chest

[velvet scaffold]

fair enough

[storm marten]

Also you can simply make a 7x7 smeltery with seared stone and have 28 faucets each full layer of smeltery drains

[slate holly]

How about alloy recipes like damascus steel, you have to use tiny and small dusts until EV to get the mixer recipe

[solid pollen]

the thread is all about yeeting them not adding more deps on it

the question is should we keep only the used ones or yeet them all?

it appears it's going in the "keep the useful ones" direction

[slate holly]

Alright👍

[storm marten]

Imo keep only the ones that are used in recipes beside dust compression/decompression 🫰

hand_with_index_finger_and_thumb_crossed:

[viscid blaze]

what if lathe just
2x ingot -> 2x rod + 1x dust?

[austere prism]

i do think that’s the cleanest

[slow latch]

Tiny dusts are terrible and were a source of lag in large bases before. Would love to see them gone completely. No need for them to be registered at all. Just takes up space for no good reason

[storm marten]

Then just... don't use the recipes that invlove then? And for those i.e.chemreactor recipes that do use them, the people who want to use them willstill be able to but kobody would be forcing you. If we clean up stuff like ore proc lines.

Strongly disagree with removing all of them completely

[slow latch]

It's useless ram. Useless time spent registering them. The proper way is to remove them for more speed and less ram..

We don't register recipes we don't use... And stop other mods from doing it vs removing them

If you want one. Manually register it. Seems fine to me? Auto registration is a silly waste of time and CPU for little upside

They add no engaging gameplay

[storm marten]

Yeah as said remove 99.9% of all tiny and small dusts that don't have any other recipes than compressing or uncompressing themselves, and only keep those that do have recipes since those are used?
And the lathe stuff could be changed to the 2x recipe with 1 full dust of everything to cut down on even more, but the amount of tiny and maybe small dusts that are used outisde the compression/decompression only, the lathe as in actually used in recipes in the CR/LCRs and other machine is so tony that they will barely have an impact anyway?
So no problem with keeping those and avoiding bricking anyones setup.

But don't just remove every single one and brick peoples setups

[austere prism]

stuff getting broken on update is par for the course and imo it’s better to have them all gone and tweak recipes than it is to be inconsistent

[slow latch]

As a one off, where it makes sense, I wouldn't mind personally. But that also doesn't mean just keeping them because they are there. Replacing/changing might make more sense

[storm marten]

Well for me the biggest thing is the biodiesel+göycerol recipe that is only doable in the LV reactor with the tiny piles due to LV machines only supporting 16kl of fluids, but I'm sure there are other such ir similar instances. And to keep those recipes to not brick stuff unnecessarily imo

[solid pollen]

main blocking points are lathe mechanic and endgame automation for the quark gluon material (gate material). The rest is pure recipe tweaking and can be adressed quite easily. We might even keep tiny / small dusts for xp bucket crafting or similar manual stuff early game.

[storm marten]

Exactly, those recipes where they actually allow for running it in lower machines without an easy way to balance it to not require tiny/small dusts whilst keeping it running in the same machines are so rare that after balancing everything else the impact woul be minimally

[viscid blaze]

just 2x ing the lathe seems like a viable solution to me

[storm marten]

One other recipe where there were small sulfur piles iirc was a chemplant recipe with 32 Apatite dust and H2SO4? as an acid but since it putputs 8 small dust you can just change it to 2 full ones

Also

[slow latch]

Remove the auto generated things that need a lathe recipe that we don't use.

[storm marten]

One other point I'd like to bring up is Ic2 crops, if they won't be gone by then

[solid pollen]

i'd rather let the lathe turn ingots into long rods then cut them than do x2 in the recipe

[storm marten]

Bcs at least some of them give tiny dusts when harvested like the Fertilia Crop, will we just change the driop rate to 1/9 of its current rate and make it drop full dust?

[austere prism]

that makes way less sense though

how is the lathe doing long rod with no shavings

[viscid blaze]

me when i extrude my ingot in a lathe :D

[slow latch]

Magic 😉

[storm marten]

I mean we could make sense out of it that the lathe just lathes 2 rods at once from both ingots stacked on top and all in all one full dust falls off?

[slow latch]

Make a generic metallic shavings item 😉

Instead of metal specific

[rugged mango]

gangue

[fierce idol]

generic metallic shavings item that you can further centrifuge into random chances of dust

[slow latch]

Stone dust 2.0

Metal dust

[fierce idol]

exactly

[storm marten]

But it wouldn't really make sense to not cet chrome back when msking chrome rods in the lathe if one were to do that in there for whatever reason...

i.e.

[solid pollen]

most of the stuff in the pack is questionable, providing 1 ingot -> 1 long keep some sort of process early game while removing the need to use a forge hammer later on. x2 the ratios are cool and all, but you don't have double the place in the lathe to place both ingots, so it feels it's like it for the sake of it. "bullshit restrictions" contributes to the negativity you get from playing (just like bus/hatch placement restriction but it's off-topic). So this is why imo it's best solution: losing some realism, while solving the small dust issues and is perceived as a QoL because you don't have to store small dusts until you can retransform them.

[small timber]

Lv multichem then

[solid pollen]

one other thing that bothers me is that we "fuse" two bars with a forge hammer. Look any blacksmith and you'll see that they always turn a a bar/ingot into a long rod with a forge hammer.

[fierce idol]

if you look at the realism the 3 bars to 2 plates in forge hammer never makes sense

[solid pollen]

forge hammer is poorly implemented and is here just so you get slightly better ratios in craft before unlocking the best ones

[storm marten]

That would require PTFE which isn't required for the LV CR Singleblock...

[small timber]

No no no, new multi made with polyethylene maybe

[dull sun]

Idea: maybe have the lathe output 3 rods instead of 2? instead of 2 small dusts. i think it may be an equivalent exchange of resources but not sure how much of a hassle it would be to do that change

[fierce idol]

isnt polyethylene MV tho

[small timber]

Lv

[lyric turret]

was clay talked about here?

[solid pollen]

nope

[lyric turret]

i remember clay has quite some small dust recipes that need to be addressed. that's what i want to mention.

[storm marten]

You can do it in LV if you go via oil processing

[small timber]

Dense clay made from 9 clay🤔

[barren wraith]

one of the first things you make with a gt tool

[lyric turret]

for the radon loop, i read through the thread roughly and did not see too much suggestions except the nugget. I have a suggestion, we keep the first recipe, change the recipe to "8 PU239+ 1 U238 ---> 8 239 + 88.88% U238 " which is equivalent to the old one. The radon loop balance is something I want to keep it as it is.

[slow latch]

Also special casing it for early game and a subset of materials seems fine... what drives me nuts is how it spams the entire game and all materials because of early game

[small timber]

What about nugget?

[slow latch]

it's useful for like what... iron, copper, tin, and a few others. If they have small dusts that's 100% fine imho

[lyric turret]

#1329023562979213353 message

[small timber]

Ah, didn't saw it

[lyric turret]

i do not like that

[slow latch]

I mean, I also don't mind keeping that specific recipe around - I kinda like it as is

but that's 100% in line with removing the autogenerated ones, and revisiting specific ones to keep existing

[lyric turret]

this thread want tiny dust gone gone right? that is why i suggested this

[slow latch]

if we go from (making numbers up) 1 million tiny dusts all auto generated.... to like 100 manually curated ones... that's a huge win

[slow latch]

My personal opinion: I want all the auto generated tiny dust spam gone, but don't mind them existing for specific purposes

which, I haven't read everything, but I think boubou would mostly be in agreement with

[austere prism]

it still seems very plausible to only autogenerate all material parts that have useful recipes

pretty sure that’s very controversial but this is the same path

[storm marten]

Yes that'd be what I made the 🫰 empji for in the reaction

[slow latch]

maybe. I'm opposed to anything that adds more time to boot up though. Seems faster to do a one time pass at that, spit out what should be registered, rather than having logic to do it every. single. boot.

was a lot of work I know, but getting rid of the recipe validation/conflict detection at boot everry time... was a huge savings as you know

would hopefully be significantly less work here

[barren wraith]

i am noticing more and more recipe dupes in nei

[slow latch]

honestly we should have a GHA that runs on the nightly with collision detection enabled and dump out a file each night

[barren wraith]

and that would also be a way to see if the pack boots lol

[slow latch]

win win

[barren wraith]

id be down to host a runner for it if for whatever reason gh's runner dont like it

[slow latch]

would just need some webhooks, build a docker container... run it... see what happens

[barren wraith]

exactly

[near horizon]

alright, actually caught up with all the post. 😅
Very much agree that it is more sensible to just continue to gradually decrease small/tiny dust recipes. A full removal just has way to many unsolved problems (clay, netherstar, radon, nuggets, etc.).

[barren wraith]

tldr: keep only useful dusts/dusts that are used in recipes

[austere prism]

yeah this was not an accident

there are ~3000 duplicate recipes from duped materials iirc

[near horizon]

thats more a question for the future material system I would say.

[austere prism]

since i think thats how many collisions got added back when i removed the thing that fixed it

[barren wraith]

why was it removed?

[austere prism]

it exposed a bunch of underlying issues with the way recipes function and broke many things

[barren wraith]

ahh

[austere prism]

my solution was hashing all of the material parts and not registering if hashed etc

so ultimately was decided that turning the collision checker off was worth having some duplicates, and the longterm solution will be materialslib

[near horizon]

thats also something for the new material system to fully solve. I am worried we are putting to much on maya but still. 😅

[slow latch]

remove the auto generation, and have a one time method that spits out anything that's in use for generation IMHO is how to implement it

shouldn't be too hard to take a pass over recipes and spit out any specific tiny/small dusts that are in place and spit out java to register those

[near horizon]

the bitmask is to rigid. guess we can make it a tag

if we really want it now

[slow latch]

that code is so full of exceptions/special cases....

just spit out a list of dusts to register
registerDustsFor({iron, copper, tin, whatever})

[near horizon]

the game is full of exceptions and special cases, so large parts of that will remain even in the new system 😛

but I guess a SubTag.HAS_SMALL_DUSTS would be easy enough

probably together with nuggets?

having one but not the other would be strange

[near horizon]

a subtag allows you to easily check it everywhere in the autogen code basically. instead of having the same list of 20 materials in 20 places

[slow latch]

sure that seems fine to me

My only concern is that we keep boottime complexity low so things boot faster

we're already doing a lot of loops over materials, so another conditional check is probably fine, seems better than registering it for everything

[near horizon]

I mean I doubt its gonna have a massive impact but sure

[slow latch]

Every bit helps 🙂

[atomic hamlet]

Im looking at my 25k small certus dust from rod lathing, definitely on board with something new for that

Maybe chanced output for SBs and a dust reclamation hatch for the multi idk

[slow latch]

at one point I wanted to make a compacting dust drawer or mulity - similar to the compacting drawers from storage drawers... but then I got lazy and distracted with another project 😛

or a dust silo 🤣

[slate holly]

I agree about keeping the radon loop balance, I think it should be accessible with only 8 PU239. Centrifuging thorium in HV to get the 8 plutonium might not “best” way but it’s doable and is a cool work around.

I think the full dust to 88% dust is interesting and IMO better than using nuggets or removing the easier recipe all together.

What about fine wire as a lathe byproduct? At least for metals

[atomic hamlet]

wouldn't really make sense for crystal
After MV extruder the only stuff you lathe is quartz or lapis or thaum shard mats anyway

for rods I mean but screws dont give dust anyway

[slow latch]

while I like that idea for metal... it also raises the question of all the useless fine wires imho 😉

[atomic hamlet]

Maybe remove dust output altogether for singleblock lathes and have a dust reclamation bus for the multi that accumulates full dust from input materials, like a 25% chance and the dust both requires and is only output to that special bus

Also incentivises the multi

i suppose an ME output bus with a partitioned cell+oredict card for dust would work too

[slate holly]

Full dust chance outputs could also be limited similar to macerator: LV lathe would only have output space for the rod, with additional slots in MV/HV to get more dust back

[slow latch]

I'd hate to do that super early game... it's a good way to slightly reduce the mat cost until better alternatives come along

but past early game... I'm all on board

[atomic hamlet]

yeah honestly I just kinda never used a lathe for rods in LV

[slow latch]

think back to how painful your first plates/rods with like iron/copper/etc were 😉

[atomic hamlet]

the resource saving wasn't worth the processing time to me

25% for a full dust might be the easiest solution but I can see how thats a problem, its free resources if you're lucky

[lyric turret]

i just hand craft, time is more valuable

[lyric turret]

i think we want to avoid the "over 100% returned" thing.

[pastel flame]

i think removing dust output altogether from sb lathes is a really bad idea personally, having done runs with and without it early game
i used to think lv lathe sucked but after using it start of this run i actually liked it
it's a choice the player gets to make early on and i don't think that taking away that choice is good for the pack

same thing for early radon loop, and i like the idea of making it 88% chance for a full dust back
chance output makes sense since it's radioactive stuff

how hard would it be to have the lathe keep track of dust it "collects" from recipes and output a full dust every two recipes it runs of the same material
i'm aware that would be a system that would have to be implemented, but i'm also wondering if that might be the best solution for it

[dusk oak]

i tried to suggest deterministic chance outputs like the lathe is collecting dust or something but got ignored

[lyric turret]

collecting dust sounds great 🫡

[dusk oak]

Even like dust collector tray cover/mode or something that can enable that interaction

[wicked carbon]

Maybe circuit 1 gives
1x -> 1x rod
circuit 2 gives
2x -> 2x rod + dust
to encourage batching(although 2 is still a tiny amount to call batching)

Seems uselessly complicated though

[stuck crag]

How about lathe giving a guaranteed output of "common metals dust" that has good use in LV but quickly loses relevance later. Like a 3 iron ingots + this dust = 4 steel ingots EBF recipe. Or centrifuging it for a chance output (~10% each to prevent loops) of iron, copper, tin, etc.

Not too far off from irl metallurgy, where residue is either separated or just used in generic "any metal works here" use cases

Just removing lathe dust also works imo, but i generally like these "nice to have" byproducts that help you in a tier, while being entirely skippable for people who don't want to bother

[storm marten]

Also, two things that haven't been talked about are recycling recipes (potentially just double/4× recipe requirements to keep balance as long as the primary output doesn't go beyond 64) and IC2 Crops

[wild wagon]

What will happen to XP bucket recipes?

[foggy sable]

XP buckets are really weird (you wouldn't expect that arranging buckets of a magical fluid in a grid would generate dusts of metals you need in stone age and LV), and mostly very hard to discover. I wouldn't be surprised if most players never use them.

I wonder if there's something better they could be reworked into.

[wild wagon]

I mean, given the introduction of variants GoG won't have to deal with them, but ye, something has to be done with those

[storm marten]

They did say that certain small and tiny dusts (like for xp buckets) are gonna be kept very most likely

[next bramble]

Found a couple more early games mall dust recipes to tweak, the non-assembler diamond saw blade, and the small dusts you get from mortaring clay (that you then have to figure out you need to combine to make your grout).
Oh also the outputs of centrifuging the various uranium and plutonium isotopes.
And the null catalyst.

I really don't see the problem with just making the lathe dust a chance output instead of smalls. I'm in favor of getting rid of all the tiny/small dusts, they're just an annoyance for no reason.

The only recipe I had deliberately making them was indium and that was only because the input hatch on my LCR was too small and I just fixed the hatch and swapped it to circuit 9 and getting the full dusts now is so much nicer

[atomic hamlet]

Yeah and batch crafting tiny into full dusts from AE is an awful experience, game freezes up, can turn off your ME somehow, gross

[brisk matrix]

i already 9xd the oreberries and metal leaves, but a few crops do give tiny piles directly, yea

[next bramble]

Noticing that oreberries now macerate into full dusts was a very welcome surprise in 2.7

[storm marten]

Oh yes, do you mean 9 oreberries into one full dust ore 1:1 with tweaked dropchances if I may ask?

[storm marten]

Nah for some recipes they're nice, and, as long as there are alternatives wuth full dusts available where making the recipes full dustwould change smth else too other than just that you don't really ever need to interact with them anyway

[brisk matrix]

Ye

[storm marten]

Well do you mean 9:1 or 1:1?

[brisk matrix]

9 to 1

With 9x eut

So needs 9x less machines too

Which is a p nice buff too

[next bramble]

It used to macerate 1 oreberry into 1 tiny dust (then you had to send to a packager), as of 2.7 it now just macerates 9 berries at a time into a full dust, with the macerator waiting to start till it gets 9

Tbh I'd love to get rid of nuggets in most places too (except for early wrought iron, cause that annoyance is the incentive to make the arc furnace), not replace tiny dusts with them anywhere, they're similarly annoying to deal with, even more so cause turning them into ingots is more difficult than combining dusts

[rapid ridge]

yeah

i had to make 100k vibrant crystals yesterday

that just felt stupid

[verbal escarp]

make tiny/small piles caching in machine until there enough to output regular dust
make recipes output regular dust, but with chance

[terse cobalt]

chance is horrible, can't me autocraft

[austere prism]

yes you can

[viscid blaze]

chance mechanic makes me sad

[lone mirage]

You just add more input than the output

[chilly reef]

I like the idea. Would we nuke them out of existence as well? So there no more tiny pile/small dusts period that exists shrinking the recipe / item list down?

[wicked carbon]

Probably deprecation

Then gradual deletion

[chilly reef]

Yeah I love to see it fully deleted. Might even help a bit once the recipes are gone for crafting table lag and such.

[pastel flame]

I don't see that as an issue, honestly
most recipes that use small/tiny dusts are things you passive anyway (eg. radon loop, sandline)

the one i think should be changed is the thorium 232 recipe should just have its inputs outputs and recipe time multiplied

[rigid gate]

Instead of removing these add super tiny piles

[storm marten]

But where would those be used 💀

[frank pendant]

In super tiny ebf for nuggets

[storm marten]

M(Mini)EbF

mebf

[wicked carbon]

I remember GT6 having 1/72 piles but could be wrong

[rigid gate]

To craft super duper tiny piles of course

[storm marten]

*mEBF

instead of MEBF

[green sail]

You joke, but this was an actual feature of GT6

[rigid gate]

This Nat person is a genius

[molten eagle]

μEBF

[storm marten]

[terse cobalt]

I dont think this is good because of early game, what if i wsnt to make 1 of something because a raw resource is hard to get early.
Recipe multiplication for the sake of getting rid of some more microcrafting seems like some wild double standards, considering this is GTNH

[fierce idol]

disagree, raw resources aren't really harder to get early on. more time consuming, maybe, but hard? no

[storm marten]

Also this applies to AE2

Like

with AE2 the whole point is to be able to deal with large amounts of items easily

[terse cobalt]

you reach AE2 like few hundred ours into a run, im just talking before

[storm marten]

How many recipes are actually used before that point where this change is relevant in the way you described though?

[lone mirage]

I dont think you have played enought, at early the issue with small percentages is not an issue, since you dont need that much as a ton of resources, and at mid/end you normally for performance do batch of craft that otput more items than the ones you need

[austere prism]

this is kind of meaningless the main "difficulty" in the pack is time cost

[fierce idol]

i mean i guess

[stiff rock]

Liquid xp --> tiny piles of gallium comes to mind as something I used to do. Is that efficient? No. Is that recipe needed? No.

[storm marten]

They already said though that those recipes would be kept most likely

[rigid gate]

They legit said that those would be replaced to a probability drop, so instead of say 100ml of this = 1 tiny dust,
100ml has a 12% chance of giving a full dust

[storm marten]

Uh no?

[storm marten]

.

Also buckets are full 1kmb, how would you even begin to make them chance based? Put the recipe in some machine?

[frank pendant]

you'll get lootboxes that have % to get item

[slate holly]

thats stupid if you wanna automate or just use the recipes at a large scale

[frank pendant]

I wasn't serious about that

[tiny dirge]

https://github.com/GTNewHorizons/GT5-Unofficial/pull/4178

Linking this here as related

[foggy sable]

Regarding the lathe and their small piles that can't neatly be made into percentage chances for mass conservation, I think we can be a bit more ambitious and think up some unique gameplay for those machines and other machines like the sawblade which in real life messily throw dust all over the place.

• For single-block machines, those messy open-air operations result in particles being deposited in the area around the machine.
  • Partial dusts are buffered and not placed until they would give back a full dust when interacted with.
  • A single empty air block in the general area of those dust generating machines is enough to gather all kinds of dusts.
  • Players can right click those dust piles/stains to get full dusts. A broom will gather all dusts in a general area.
  • For full automation of single-block machines, you can engineer the space so that dusts end up somewhere where a vacuum will pick them up. A vacuum cover can also directly be applied to the machine to extract all it's dusts directly.
• For multi-block machines, the process is much simpler and more abstracted. The muffler hatch is removed if it exists and instead a "dust filter" hatch collects all the dusts generated by recipes in this machine, again buffering virtual small/tiny dusts until they can be manifested as full dusts.

[faint kelp]

this is way too interesting of a mechanic for a machine as boring as the lathe lmao, if this was implemented id want the lathe to have more use

[wild wagon]

Build-up mechanic is nice ngl

Problem is different types of dusts

[foggy sable]

Sure, but gotta introduce it somewhere and make sure it works before we can use it across more of the pack and think of tying it to other systems which shall not be named in this thread.

[foggy sable]

Yeah I figure we should make it simple and make the pile(s) able to buffer up dusts from any number of materials. Optionally one could imagine there being a maximal capacity for those those "Dust" tiles at which point either further dusts are lost, buffered in the chunk and deposited when there's space, or the machine stops working.

[desert finch]

yeah true

1/72 piles

those are super useful for converting small and tiny piles

gt6 also has a dust funnel, which has an arbitrary dust buffer and can convert between 1/72 piles, small, tiny, regular dust, and whole dust blocks, with a dust buffer inside

its mass storages also work that way; I think that implementing gt6 mass storages and drums in gtnh is a good idea

[slow latch]

That was always what I wanted to do

but never got around to it

was thinking of a dust silo, similar looking to like an immersive engineering tank or something

or a farmer's grain silo IRL

[storm marten]

To add to this, for SB machines, Iwould ask for a feature of having one SB collect dusts in a certain range from machines instead of having to go aeound and find them when placed down, similar to the hatches, just so it isn't so annoying picking then up early game

*a dedicated SB collect, mb it could draw like 1/2EU/tick constantly or smthto psy for the convenience, idk, just so one can have one central place for collecting dusts instead of having to run aeound/look between machines.

Also, how would this mechanic work with the Cleanroom? Would lathes inthere only function if they had that cover installed?

[tiny dirge]

I think this could be a good solution, if not considering Callithrix suggestion of just making ingot -> long rod in the lathe. Dust collection idea is certainly more ambitious

[foggy sable]

You certainly wouldn't want to soil the cleanroom.

[storm marten]

Yeah, which is why I brought it up

[desert finch]

tbh

if gtnh had like a jappa barrel or something that worked like the mass storages

than that could also work

since you could just funnel dust through the barrel and it would auto stack itself

[slow latch]

should be a multiblock like the IM tank 😉

had also considered compacting drawers for the purpose of dust

"Dust drawer"

but I got distracted with optimizations/Angelica

[fierce idol]

maybe you could have a specialized dust output bus for cleanroom

[storm marten]

I mean not really imo, the only option for dusting machines would be a cover on them that prevents dusts from oging into the CR in the first place, if we wanna talk about it being somewhat similar to irl CRs

[desert finch]

dust bus and dust pipes would go hard

like what if dust went through fluid pipes

[foggy sable]

What do you mean? Fluids move one block at a time

[desert finch]

what i mean is that dust acts like a fluid, so it can be used as, like for example one full dust is 144L of dust compared to 144L of fluid

[mossy plume]

I'm not like a star gater or anything, but I strongly dislike the idea of dust pipes

They're an item, they'd just use item pipes

Creating a whole new pipe system for dusts has significant implications that I don't think the benefits outweigh the detriments

[foggy sable]

Item pipes as a whole need a rework anyway

[mossy plume]

Fair, but deserving it's own #

[desert finch]

not a new pipe system

just using the fluid pipe system

and treating dusts as fluids

[foggy sable]

I don't want slushing dusts :(

[desert finch]

i do

144L of iron dust

it should be stored in BUCKETS dammit

[floral escarp]

A proper particulate system would be cool for pollution as well

Not just lathe

[foggy sable]

Right, I'm thinking a particulates pipe, maybe with a concept of throughput based both on the size of the pipe and the negative air pressure/suction within might be suitable for many current problem areas.

[faint kelp]

have dust be a fluid

[desert finch]

^^^

i would love for dust, especially after earlygame, to be treated as a fluid rather than an item

but of course to electrolyze it you need to melt it\

[faint kelp]

idk im kinda just joking, having dust be a fluid would actually be such a disruptive change

like Massively disruptive

[mossy plume]

Formerly item bus only machines would need fluid hatches

[brisk matrix]

i thought Yannick meant like, dust/particullete output hatches that hook onto TT-esque pipes that hten connect to a central machine that sucks the dust/particulettes in and consolidates them into full dusts, eventually

1 machine keeping track, and the partial dusts/particles arent actual items but just data

with the machine also using power to increase suction force and therefore range and/or dust/paricle max mass/density

like t1 can't do like, osmium, but t2 can

[fierce idol]

does this mean air pressure pneumaticcraft is going to be finally implemented

[foggy sable]

Probably not for powering machines, a bit out of scope of our needs.

[mossy plume]

Is lathes the only thing preventing the removal of small and tiny dust piles? I'm 1000% in support of simplifying the items where possible and the tiny and small dusts are oomf

[desert finch]

what if we do remove small and tiny dusts but dusts can act as fluids if you click them into fluid slots

and you can take them out of fluid slots with left click for all possible and right click for one

[storm marten]

Then why would you ever use Fluid Extractors over Macerators....

Just a bad idea

[desert finch]

well, macerators are for when you need a solid reagent and fluid extractors are for liquid

[nova ocean]

Dust reclamation pipes would be useful for whatever comes from the pollution AoI too

[fierce idol]

implosion compressor and certain gog recipes as well

[foggy sable]

Implosion compressor is another very good use case for capturing "particulates" from the air.

[mossy plume]

And we didn't want to use % chance of whole dust?

[foggy sable]

No, for simple reasons of plausible conservation of mass.

A raw ore might have variable amounts of material, sure, but you shouldn't be able to shave some metal from an ingot and end up with 1.5 ingots worth of metal

[floral escarp]

I think lathe should have better yield than extruder if you have to do particulate stuff

Although i dont think it is possible without nerfing extruder

[mossy plume]

What about instead of a small pile, it produced nuggets?

Since it's starts with ingots anyway

Nuggets being useful and also base game

[fierce idol]

nuggets are even more useless than dusts

[mossy plume]

But more unified, in that it reduces the problem still so we can implement the removal of the small and tiny dusts

Like a compacting drawer with nuggets versus tiny dusts you're just like 😐

I just want to reduce tiny small dusts as much as possible before 2.8

[foggy sable]

I'd rather we make the best reasonable change even at the cost of missing 2.8 than do a bad change we wish we could revert.

[mossy plume]

That's fair. 😦

[untold relic]

What happens when you macerate nuggets?

[storm marten]

9:1 recipe?

[faint kelp]

https://github.com/GTNewHorizons/GT5-Unofficial/pull/4306 regarding this PR: i thought the agreed upon idea was that we didn't want chanced output for the lathe but rather something more complicated?

[foggy sable]

We did, but the more complicated thing will not be ready in time for 2.8

There also were reasonable objections to the idea of using chance based full dust outputs for recycling operations given that those violate conservation of mass and don't allow for deterministic recipes. @exotic blade Read up above for a while for "dust/particulates reclamation pipes" theorycrafting which intends to turn this problem into an opportunity to expand the mechanics of GT.

I think we could probably still get the full dust change in for now with plans to change it later since the conservation of mass thing is really only problematic from a "correctness" perspective. That being said it's not a clear improvement on the existing small dusts which players are already equipped to deal with, so maybe we should hold off on this change.

[lone mirage]

x9 all recipes and output full dust instead

[foggy sable]

We're not going to force players to make 4 exquisite diamonds into 4 lenses, 3 of which they don't need right now

[storm marten]

actually exquisite diamonds output 3 lenses per diamond already

Sry

[lone mirage]

It was kinda a joke, but maybe the lathe algorithm could be tweaked that if it detectes a multiple of 4 or 9 it outputs a full dust

[exotic blade]

I Agree, Definitely on the fact that a 50% chance for a recycling recipe can occasionally give 100% twice in a row but then it can not give a dust twice in a row.
Maybe use the PR I made for 2.8 and later on replace it for a unique and better mechanic later? I'm happy to close it if that would be preferred 🙂

[storm marten]

And they output full dusts anyway with exquisite gems

[storm marten]

If anything, the lenses thing would abe a topic for the ones you make from plates

Those give a quarter dust per plate and one lens

[foggy sable]

Right, bad example I don't always have the game open in front of me, but I think you get what I'm saying.

[floral escarp]

Why do lenses take up so much naterial

[storm marten]

Yeah no totally get it, I just wanted to bring some real information to the table after doing a tiny shitpost lmao

[lone mirage]

I was a bit serious with this qwq

[floral escarp]

I feel like they should be less than a tiny dust worth of material, usually arnt they less than 1 mm in thickness

[foggy sable]

I think since @solid pollen opened this AOI their input on whether it's worthwhile to get a temporary solution into 2.8 might be important here.

Personally I don't see huge value in doing this change now because there will still be other small dusts in the game. I'd hold on until this is the last small dust we remove

[lone mirage]

Maybe add a circuit into recipe, no circuit = tiny dust, circuit whatever = multiple recipe and full dust

[foggy sable]

I don't like recipe bloat, but that might be a good "temporary" solution.

[exotic blade]

Honestly that sounds like a better "temporary" solution to what I have made

[foggy sable]

The only problem with getting in any temporary solution right now is that we make people update their setups every time we change recipes

[storm marten]

#1329023562979213353 message
Not with this solution, no?

[exotic blade]

Yea might be an Idea to wait til a "permanent" solution arises

[foggy sable]

Sure, if we introduce the circuits as a temporary solution and then go back to single input recipes with particulates they'll need to adapt again

[storm marten]

Oh that you mean

[lone mirage]

The recipe could be auto generated and even not available in NEI, only as a description in the lathe multiblock

Like a special mechanic of the multi itself

[solid pollen]

lathe is that specific case in which you have to make a choice on the gameplay because it was designed this way to get back some material in the early game progression, before the extruder is a thing.

It's also in line with a lathe IRL

[faint kelp]

i feel like whatever solution would have to be "worth it" enough to actually get the material back

[solid pollen]

possible solutions:

• stay as is but reducing the amount of recipes in the lathe to make it an early game solution (bad imo)
• double the inputs and the duration time but give back the full dust (fine for material conservation)
• ditch the dusts completely (bad imo)
• use chance based outputs (has some quirks on small batches but overall same outputs on average)
• add a "turbo mode" in which the lathe could go faster, but consume more power, and due to its speed the dust would be "spreaded appart in the whole room", justifying the loss of the dusts.

[floral escarp]

Is there any earlygame ingot thats worth trying to dupe with the lathe, im a gambling man but i can’t think of any ingot i only have 1 of that i would want like 4 of

Particulate reclamation would be interesting for a pollution rework as well

[versed scroll]

correct me if im wrong but wasnt tiny dust and small piles express use kinda for the packager

as far as i remember it 9 to 1 free one

[floral escarp]

Im pretty sure it is the other way around

The packager express use is for the tiny dusts

[versed scroll]

yeah so i dont see a real problem as there is LV extruder

and MV covers a ton

[floral escarp]

I mean the lathe still exists, so it needs to be fixed

[versed scroll]

true i cant recall when the MB one is

[versed scroll]

could hear me out make sifter recipes for small dust

[floral escarp]

We trying to remove small dust

Not add more recipes for small dust

[versed scroll]

i know but at the same time extruder kinda becomes king

[solid pollen]

tiny and smalls are done in such way that you can add fractional recycling. The packager is just a glorified automated crafting table doing only very specific recipes.

[versed scroll]

really it can we use small dust for anything else as free dust is cool but MV extruder kinda make lathe rather useless i cant recall in my post HV time really using a lathe for anything as rods go to extruder

[red shale]

Gallium

[versed scroll]

and extruder turns 1 ingot into 2 rods

[versed scroll]

gallium is a weird one as either you do bees or a zinc ore proc or wait till EEC

[floral escarp]

Yeah i never use the lathe, i feel like my time is more valuable than half a dust that i would need to resmelt

Exept for like screws and lenses

[versed scroll]

cutting machine kinda fixes that one

most of the time it fluid solidifer extruder and cutting machine

[solid pollen]

the thing is you guys can say the lathe is suboptimal because there are other better alternatives. But if we start remove every option, then we remove choice, and choice is what makes NH a good modpack

[versed scroll]

really i still say my suggestion for sifting small dust is an option

[faint kelp]

can you even turn large dusts into small dusts using the packager/unpackager. this is required if you dont want to use the crafting table and you want to craft ic2 uranium fuel

lathe is still useful regardless because of gem rods

and screws

[floral escarp]

Im not saying remove it, i like these incentives choice

[versed scroll]

hell a nugget here or there from a sift be nice

[faint kelp]

like at the moment, to me, the lathe is used 99% for ae2 rods

so increasing the amount of gem rods would increase the necessity of the lathe

[floral escarp]

Id say 50/50 is a cool temp choice as i can use it to dupe gallium or arsenic

[faint kelp]

or! interesting idea: add gem frameboxes

[versed scroll]

fluid solidifer

melt the gem

[faint kelp]

you cant fluid solidify gems

right?

[versed scroll]

i saying if we wanted to

[faint kelp]

it doesnt even make sense realistically bc gems have a very specific crystalline structure

[versed scroll]

we kinda do that for alloys and mostly a lot of gems are molten rock anyways so...

under extreme pressure

[faint kelp]

ok the EoH pity mechanic gave me an idea. this might be a terrible idea but

would it be possible to make it so that the lathe only gives a full dust every other operation?

[versed scroll]

actually a fluid compressor be a nice edition

[faint kelp]

idk how this would work with parallels

or with multiple dusts

this would remove the quirkiness of material conservation

and would be 50% regardless of smalls scale or large scale

this would be a very quirky mechanic to implement though

and would be complicated with multiple dusts

[foggy sable]

@restive oar you might not want to put https://github.com/GTNewHorizons/GT5-Unofficial/pull/4306 in the nightlies, it'll break everyone's automation setups and we're really not sure that's even a change we want to keep.

[restive oar]

ok i just un tag it

if you have a better idea go ahead add it if you want

[exotic blade]

Should I convert the PR to a draft or just close it?

[barren wraith]

nah, i put the Not Ready For Testing label on it

[exotic blade]

How about using a programmed circuit set to 9 to output only dusts, but require an appropriate input to match a full dust and circuit 1 to output the small/tiny piles? this is similar to how the LCR handles the small/tiny piles.
This would also help with making it not break existing setups so people could transition away from the small/tiny piles.

[brisk matrix]

imo, this would be best until a better implementation is made (please)

[lone mirage]

[exotic blade]

Somthing like this 4/9 times the input so 4/9 times the time, but outputs a full dust

[elfin vault]

I feel like tiny/small piles should stay and get more attention, removing them removes a way to add interesting byproducts to new/existing lines/processes in the future. The one thing it could be done is deciding to remove either small piles OR tiny piles. Keeping one of the two is the best compromise if the desire to remove them is that big.

[floral escarp]

Do tiny piles add any gameplay that normal dust do not

It is not worth the extreme item bloat for niece potential it might have

[elfin vault]

they allow the option of adding efficiency to a recipe without effectively doubling the material for example

if we are talking item bloat there are a quadrillion different chisel blocks, a couple of dusts won't be the difference

[floral escarp]

There are a lot of dusts

And each one has a tiny and a small

Im pretty sure there more tiny and small dust then chisel and xtone combined

But also, it is boring

All you do is use some multi or craft it immediately into a dust

[mossy plume]

Yeah you manually craft chisel blocks for a purpose.

But small/tiny dusts you get often because of byproducts and it fills extra spaces in inventory/slots and you just go "UGH, yet another small dust I need to either trash or wait until I get the magic number of them to make into a large dust so I can actually DO something with it"

[faint kelp]

anyway, we can literally keep dusts aa byproducts in lines via either 9x-ing inputs or making it a chanced output

[elfin vault]

to me tiny and small dusts seem like perfect use for: mod drops, dungeon loot, differentiating processing chains even more, making less used multis useful and implementing new mechanics. I know this is out of this AOI, but what if you had to choose to have to deal with "annoying" byproduct or extra pollution? A circuit gives the dust, one gives more pollution but no extra dust. This means that you can potentially make your BBFs run wild with pollution and not have to deal with ashes (thematically, they'd go into the atmosphere). What if the various fishing blocks could rarely give tiny gold dusts if placed in mountain biomes? These are just quick ideas of how they could be implemented, I'm sure we could have more.

Imo, all natural resources/elements should have tiny dusts and the compounds/alloys/artificial materials shouldn't

storage management should be part of the infrastructure discussion and this would make earlier automation more meaningful too. Removing items should be the last resort and only if their existence is a big problem

[slow latch]

tiny dusts are so annoying, take up unnecessary registrations, recipes

death by a thousand cuts, if everything has a tiny dust, it slows things down on bootup, on recipe lookup, etc

[elfin vault]

that's why I said that maybe the middle-ground solution of having one type is better (I'd go with tiny dusts since they follow the same logic as nuggets)

I also said that only base elements should have dusts, not everything. It does make sense that there is no "Shirabon tiny dust" but there is a tiny iron dust

[austere prism]

they have never added any value to the game. purely an annoying "set up the machine that makes small/tiny dusts into big dusts one time" and be mildly irritated before then

and at some point 10 years down the line you have to accept theyre probably never going to add any value

[elfin vault]

we are reworking trains because they offer little value, I view this AOI in the same category as enhancing the core gameplay offer

[austere prism]

the interest in reworking and making trains interesting is about one hundred million times higher than the interest in tiny dusts

*rough estimation

[slow latch]

tiny dusts aren't interesting. Trains are 😛

[austere prism]

wrt natural resources using tiny dusts - this is how it used to work, it was changed to percent output full dusts because no one liked having to add a packager to their oreproc

so that discussion has kind of already happened

[elfin vault]

so why are tiny dusts still here

[austere prism]

because they haven't been removed yet :P

[elfin vault]

what is the next target, long rods?

[slow latch]

long rods aren't byproducts of other things

[elfin vault]

but most are not useful

[slow latch]

but in general yes, any auto registered useless piece of materials is up for consideration

[austere prism]

are we just doing slippery slope now

[slow latch]

dusts are an active annoyance

[austere prism]

and yea all the double/triple/quadruple/etc ingots got removed recently

same with some of the multi-plates

[elfin vault]

no, in every comment, I said to have a criteria to tiny dust, not just remove them completely because they are annoying and autogenerated probably, so I brought up the long rods

I that wasn't clear from my comments I apologize

[slow latch]

they're annoying and auto generated, so remove them 😛

long rods are less annoying, and auto generated, so I wouldn't be opposed to removing them.

[austere prism]

the main thing long rods serve is giving a use to forge hammer lol

but for sure low on the totem pole of materials

[stiff rock]

early game plate production is a use case i guess 😛

[austere prism]

yeah i meant later on

[floral escarp]

Doesnt it turn stone into cobble

And cobble into gravel

[elfin vault]

yeah I figured don't worry

my gravel farm won't be nerfed fr fr

I think the think that we all agree on is that the number of smaller dusts needs to be reduce, I'd firstly remove every Small Dust (and make the recipes that output them, output Tiny dusts), if that is not enough, hit the tiny dusts too

[austere prism]

we've been working towards the wholesale removal for a while https://github.com/GTNewHorizons/GT5-Unofficial/pull/3362

this has been kind of an unstated goal since before this aoi

lots of similar small prs across the repos

[elfin vault]

that I saw

[foggy sable]

At this point there's a broadly perceived consensus that tiny/small piles should be removed everywhere they can effortlessly be. The most recent PR didn't get pushback for wanting to remove small dusts, only for the way it which it wanted to remove them.

[austere prism]

yeah there has generally been no pushback against entirely removing them, this is the first ive seen

[foggy sable]

The biggest change of course was when the ore processing line switched to chance based dusts outputs

[floral escarp]

Rarely giving tiny gold dust is extremely useless

[austere prism]

its more "how do we want to remove each one" rather than "do we want to remove them"

[floral escarp]

Rarely giving gold dust probably isnt worth it

[elfin vault]

it was just a random example like gold panning

[foggy sable]

@elfin vault We definitely want to hear it if there's a specific situation with existing content where you think the game's balance/logic would be negatively affected by removing small dusts.

[floral escarp]

With gregtech you work on the scale of many stacks of materials, anything less than 1 is essentially worthless

[foggy sable]

Lathes is one such controversial case which needs a careful plan of action.

[elfin vault]

Lathe is the biggest offender tbh

[foggy sable]

I wouldn't even be opposed to small dusts staying in the game only for lathes, as long as we get rid of all the cases where dusts can trivially be removed.

[floral escarp]

Would lathe be op if it just gave 2 rods, what would become easier from lathe to mv extruder, besides like invar for ebf

It is still slower than extruder im pretty sure

[elfin vault]

basically nothing I think

[austere prism]

i dont think it would be op but im against it on principle of liking material efficiency progression

[floral escarp]

No other material does this

Not plates or wires atleast

[austere prism]

it would be a net negative to throw away one of the points where you feel significant improvement in tiering

[elfin vault]

how about a 3 ingot -> 2 rods approach then? Like forge hammer?

[floral escarp]

That is

[elfin vault]

or too op?

[floral escarp]

Worse than file

[austere prism]

not from lv -> mv specifically but across tiers they certainly do

yea the weird part is actually that file is equally efficient to extruder. that is strange lol

[elfin vault]

nerf files (no pls)

[floral escarp]

Isnt extruder 1 ingot to 2 rods

[austere prism]

oh

im silly

then no 3:2 is not worse than file

[floral escarp]

File is 1:1

[austere prism]

wait yes it is

[foggy sable]

I don't think the "problem" of small dusts is in any way large enough to warrant changing the 1 input -> 1 output + shavings "fantasy justification" of the lathe. It feels very good to play with, it makes sense in game, and that has intrinsic value.

[austere prism]

sorry

[elfin vault]

we are mindbreaking Four lul

[floral escarp]

Lathe is 1:2 just in a very strange way

And you only need rods for the invar frames

And a few cercuits

Before you get mv extruder

Id say it would be the easiest way

[austere prism]

i definitely think lathe making shavings is cool but i also think generating a small dust for every material in the game exclusively for the purpose of lathe is kind of bad

[floral escarp]

Or 1 rod and 1 ring

If you still want it to be worse than extruder besides time

Or it makes 1 large rod that you have to cut

To get rod

[elfin vault]

this is the best idea so far imo

extruder reduces a step

[floral escarp]

Any of those are prob good temp solutions until particulate

I think it is better than 50%

[austere prism]

if i had to cut long rods id definitely keep using file
but i usually skip lathe anyways so maybe thats fine

[floral escarp]

no one uses lathes for rods

Or not many

Bc you cant ise steel dust

[austere prism]

id wager that most people do

[floral escarp]

And you would either have to cut it instantly with long rod

[austere prism]

its more of a experienced strategy to avoid lathe

[floral escarp]

Or smelt it again

[austere prism]

you very much can

[elfin vault]

I use it, the steel I re-smelt it in the tinker forge

[floral escarp]

Forgot about that part

But mv extruder is like one of rhe first machines you get

Because of ticon

Or atleast for me

[elfin vault]

which is another AOI so we'll see

[austere prism]

i guess one thing i might argue, just thinking about it: like, a bunch more of the machines should produce shavings if that were the case

extruder certainly

[floral escarp]

I think the one time it is useful is saving like a stack of invar for the ebf

[slow latch]

internal buffer before spitting out a full dust

[foggy sable]

I did put forward a proposal earlier which I intend to work on for 2.9 if I'm given the chance. It will remove small dusts for the lathe and introduce more interesting gameplay.

[slow latch]

Leagris and I had tossed around the idea of a dust funnel/silo... or "compacting dust drawers", but we never got around to running with it

[floral escarp]

I think long rod is still makes it worse than extruder, but gives it a slight buff

[elfin vault]

of course, the state is memorized in a static array, one position for each latheable material

[floral escarp]

Because both extruder and lathe are 2:1 just lathe is more annoying to use

I dont know why lathe is inconsistant with the wiremill and bending machine though

[foggy sable]

For those who haven't seen my proposal regarding the Lathe and similar dust-byproduct producing machines.

[floral escarp]

Id prefer long rod to chance or internal buffer

[foggy sable]

My proposal is basically an external buffer instead of internal buffer. I think it'd be a smaller footprint in terms of storage needs.

[red shale]

What do you think about galacticraft aloys implosion compression

[foggy sable]

I'd just make them work with the particulate pipes as well.

[red shale]

Like that one recipe that outputs tiny stainless steel dust

[floral escarp]

The particulate system is cool for pollution rework

But it would make the lathe even worse

I think lathe should be faster than extruder with rods if you need to deal with particulates if you use it

Unless the extruder also generates particulates

[faint kelp]

i would be open to removing long rods

[fierce idol]

what if you made it 3:4

for lathe

[tame belfry]

2 foils

[dull grove]

manually picking up dusts from machines seems a bit too involved/not the sort of "vibe" you want in the late game- like past hv you surely have a solution for a lathe chucking dust everywhere?

[foggy sable]

Probably pipes as early as LV and hoppers before that.

[faint kelp]

has nightly changed mob drop's tiny/small piles to a full dust with equivalant chance?

eg red cap sapper tiny/small gallium piles

[foggy sable]

Sounds like a good idea and a low hanging fruit, but I don't recall seeing such a PR

[faint kelp]

is the math correct that youd just divide the percentage drop chance by 4 for small dusts and 9 for tiny dusts?

eg the redcap sapper, since your expected number of gallium you'd get from killing 1 redcap would be 0.25x0.225 + 0.1111111*0.7 = 0.134 gallium, you could safely make it a 13.4% chance to drop a full dust? which would go to like 1.34% in the eec

[dull grove]

sounds good to me

[storm marten]

eaYes

[lyric storm]

Xp bucket recipes for e.g. gallium and other tiny/small dusts could instead return nuggets
Nuggets could follow the oreberry rule of requiring 9 in a macerator to turn into a full dust

In general, tiny piles are 1:1 with nuggets, so nuggets could be a good solution in general

Small piles aren't equivalent to nuggets, though - could "round down" to 2 nuggets, as some machines already do (e.g. arc furnace recycling)

This could also make lathe turning an ingot into a rod produce 4 nuggets as the byproduct, which is deterministic and slightly lossy, incentivizing extruder

That said, I'm very curious about the dust particulate mechanics proposed earlier, so don't let me rain on your parade

[storm marten]

The question is wouldn't we want to remove nuggets at some point too, since it's basically the same situation as with tiny dusts fromwhat I can see interms of in game usage but just withevenless uses inactual recipes. (Not that I am in thd dev team or anything)

But Nuggets macerating 9:1 into fulldists is definitely a good idea 👍

[lyric storm]

I'm not really sure whether removing nuggets altogether is viable - some recipes depend on fractions of metals (e.g. pulsating crystal taking specifically 8 pulsating iron nuggets, thauminite being yielded at 8 nuggets per 1 thaumium ingot etc.)
But, I don't really feel strongly on either side about the nuggets, tbh - mostly just wanted to suggest more in the line of "we already have nuggets and dusts, we could reduce to just nuggets for same purpose"

[storm marten]

I'd assume that, if the devs decide removing nuggets is something they want (which at least to me seems logical since we are removing tiny dusts as tehy are rather similar from an in game perspective to tiny dusts), that it'd result in the same basic stance - keep the nuggets that are actually used anywhere (nugget dupes/TC recipes side dupes etc), adn just remove like 90% of them or wahtever who don't actually have any recipes besides fluid solidifying/recycling/alloy smelter molding/etc, assuming it wouldn't be too much work in comparison to removing tiny dusts but idk.
But yeah, for some stuff turning them to nuggets would be an option and then removing all unused nuggets - though, if the devs are gonna keep some tiny dusts in regardless it wouldn't really matter whether we shift a portion to nuggets and then remove unused nuggets or if we don't and have a slightly higher number of removed nuggets with lsightly less removed tiny dusts. (imo)

[median falcon]

What about ic2 crops that give tiny dusts? Will those be removed?

[storm marten]

I think'd guess those will just get their drop chance lowereed to a ninth and then output full dusts as far as I understand it, but I'm not on the dev team so idk

[brisk matrix]

kobra prob already has it converted

[storm marten]

But crops won't be in 2.8.x, so it'd mean, assuming this AOI is gonna be in 2.8.x, that that would be smth devs would have to adjust (or just keep those few tiny dusts that IC2 crops give until the crop rework is done)

[brisk matrix]

it is very unliekly for this to be in 2.8, and itd be a large change, pushing it to 2.9, where it breaking save would be expected and known, just like all major versions

[storm marten]

Ah fair, ig I just kinda expected this AOI to be in 2.8.x

[brisk matrix]

as far as i reember only major versions were allowed to brick saves, since major overhauls and changes are pushed to them specifically so only one versions at a time holds that danger

[storm marten]

2.8.0 is a moajor version thouhg?

It just wrote 2.8.x since if it is gonna be in 2.8.0 it's also gonna be in 2.8.1 and other minor versions yk?

[brisk matrix]

2.8 is already preping for a beta and in feature freeze

[storm marten]

Not lik they are gonna reverse anything like taht for a minor version

[storm marten]

And this AOI was already up way before 2.8.0's feature freeze has happened yk - and since no real further dev talk was happening I had assumed that the how do we wanna implement this AOI has been done, and bcs that was finished (on hte public side I know of at least) before the feature freeze I assumed it'd be in 2.8.0 and following minor versions. Could oc be wrong though, as I'm neither in the dev team nor know a lot about its interactions (?) with AOIs in regards to when a AOI is actually gonna be implemented

[brisk matrix]

fair

[austere prism]

aois often just signal "pre-approved topics" or are loose plans

not necessarily (or usually) content which is sure to be developed before the next stable

[storm marten]

Totally fair, that is why I did say I didn't nkow how AOIs slot into GTNH dev cycles

[median falcon]

will they completely be removed? all my ore procesing depends on them

[storm marten]

Eventually yes but not in 2.8.x

[storm marten]

https://discord.com/channels/181078474394566657/1303129128085753898 Here you can read through the document on what exacvtly would be breaking changes for your Oreproc. I myself haven't read it so you gotta read it yourself

[austere prism]

more replaced than removed. and not anytime soon

[faint kelp]

heres a recipe that needs to be de-small-pile-ified

i imagine a bunch of bartworks recipes need to have a similar treatment LOL

[exotic blade]

That one could be solved by timesing the inputs and outputs by 2 and by swapping to a full dust 😉

[lone mirage]

Or by nerfing it to use just full dust

[gaunt thicket]

double all the inputs then turn the 4 small dusts into 1 normal dust of each as well as doubling the output

[tardy cypress]

Ruby Juice uses Tiny Piles of Sodium Hydroxide

there's some pile stuff going on when thermal centrifuging Depleted Uranium and MOX Quad Cores aswell

[lone mirage]

Some tiny piles are used as catalysts in chem, they could also be changed

[tardy obsidian]

I prefer yttrium thorium powder to molten yttrium thorium, I don't like the ebf recipe. maybe a ABS recipe

[marsh sierra]

Having only useful small dusts would be so nice also for browsing potential recipes "is this thing useful, hope"
Same thing for plates and rotors etc >.<

[red shale]

For me that is a big fricking no

Consistency should be

[marsh sierra]

I mean ideally there's no small dusts lul

as that is the goal of this

but some dusts are currently necessary

our gripe is worse with plate stuff as multi compressed plates are hardly used but then randomly are used but then the thing it's used for is unused kinda thing

[red shale]

I think that is important that person looks on materials page first time and thinks "oooh i get it now, there is plate rod rotor etc for every material". When some items are missing it's not that clear

Highlighting items with unique uses in materials page would be cool though

[high raft]

poeple will start by looking at early game materials like tin or bronze or iron and get that, looking to see if random alloy 54836 plates has a use and seeing 4 pages of only recycling is way worse than not seeing the plate for that end game material that has literally one use

imo reducing clutter for readability is more important than having useless things lying around cluttering NEI for consistency

[marsh sierra]

Thisss

We also love chemicals that dead end with no usage

[dusky salmon]

That sounds like the best approach. A toggle to hide autogenerated parts recipes + highlighting all parts on material tab that have anay non-autogenerated use

[storm marten]

But the point abt removing tiny piles and dusts is that we should get loadong time benefits from a reduced number of items being loaded in the first place - which, if we only used visual toggles for say when we might wanna remove unused plates or smth, wouldn't give us that benefit.

Now, if the devs say that they definitely never wanna remove all unused plates, and only keep used ones, I'm definitely all for your suggestion - but if they do decide thatthey eventuall wanna remove all unused plates/small gears/etc. it'd be kinda waster effort having been put into that feature

[dusky salmon]

Yeah, fair. the decluttering can't come soon enough

[austere prism]

there would be no meaningful impact on load time

generally the sentiment ive seen has been against removing unused components, and it comes with some hiccups. personally im on the fence

[storm marten]

I mean why are we removing tiny and small piles then? Shouldn't if anything unused auto generated (material) parts be more items than the dusts, as wit h the dusts it's just two items per materialy, with parts being in the dozens with all the xn plates and ingots, the smal land big cogs, rods, large rods, rings. rotors, frame boxes, springs., etc etc etc

[austere prism]

because of their negative gameplay impact

the primary goal is to remove every usage of the tiny and small dusts, every recipe that outputs them, etc

at that point you may as well remove them because they are entirely unused

it’s not to save load time

it’s much easier to remove an entirely unused category than it is to remove unused elements of a partially used category

[storm marten]

Yeah entirely fair point

[gaunt thicket]

can we also remove nuggets?

[trim gust]

Nuggets are used pretty widely, e.g. in Thaumcraft alchemy/crafting and as the result of various forms of recycling, as well as some early game things like making Wrought Iron

removing them would be a lot harder i'm guessing

plus nuggets are a vanilla MC concept to begin with

[red shale]

Yes

Btw tiny piles are also extrbsion of vanilla concept, like ingot -> dust, nugget -> tiny dust

[dull grove]

I think removing just small piles is a better first step, as they are not a logical extension of any vanilla concept

[kindred lark]

So the plan would be then to swap things like lathe outputs to percent chance full dust? Or just quad the lathe inputs and outputs? Might be a little rough on early LV to do that

[ruby scroll]

It might be a bit rough, but it would emphasize batch crafting and automation which is the point of the pack. By LV you should already be aiming for that.

[austere prism]

it would also break any semblance of logic to have lucky streaks where one piece of metal makes seemingly infinite rods

[faint kelp]

if theres one thing devs dont want its breaking the laws of physics (matter must never be created. sometimes its destroyed (see aluminium in the indium process))

[marsh sierra]

Btw as a note for this, we have an nei page of such materials x3

Dead end chems, nuggets that can't be used for anything or crafted backwards etcetc

[high raft]

since which version ? last time I played in 2.7 I didn't see that

[lone mirage]

I´m ading a mixer recipe x9 so it removes the tiny dust

[lone mirage]

we kinda could remove the crafting recipe if needed

[faint kelp]

how do you even track every single tiny dust recipe that isnt autogenerated. i cant even say autogenerated confidently bc maybe some autogenned tiny dust recipes are necessary

[gusty vortex]

There are ways to export all recipes from NEI. You can then scan those exported files for any usages of tiny dust.

[marsh sierra]

we made it ourself back in like 2.3.0?

hand made as we were bored and so went through most of NEI iirc

it is stored in one of our instances but we could absolutely add more liquids to it with stuff we found recently