I'm confused about trems ($600 budget)

[feral kernel]

I've been told that guitars with floyd roses at my budget are no good and the floyd is cheap and won't work properly. Is that 100% true? Can't I just swap the floyd later down the line for a better one?

If it's best not to get a floyd, I still want a whammy bar so can someone explain the different routes I can take? I know about a few of them but idk what they're for or what they do. I know about the 2 point and 6 point and floating trems. Can a non-floyd bend as much as a floyd? Does the floyd do anything the other trems don't?

[cyan quail]

1. can a non floyd bend as much as s floyd: depends on the trem, recessed 2 point tremolos have a similar range
2. what floyds do what non floyds cant, is the double locking system. Assuming its an actual decent floyd, the floyd will out perform a regular tremolo as far as stability goes.

That being said, regular trems are already super stable as is given its a good tremolo with an excellent setup with well cut nut, string tree, and saddles.

and yes cheap floyds are kinda shit in the sense they don't do their one single job to the performance level that is expected out of them, kinda defeats the point of having a floyd

[feral kernel]

so at my budget is that too low to get a decent floyd?

i was looking at the jackson js32 dinky and the contemporary strat hh fr

and a few others but mainly those

also ive never seen a recessed trem that's not a floyd

[cyan quail]

yes

[cyan quail]

garbage floyds

[cyan quail]

charvel dk25, ibanez AZ's

[feral kernel]

so am i better off getting one of those recessed 2 points?

[cyan quail]

they don't appear in guitars under 600 yet

[feral kernel]

maybe i can get something used that has it?

[cyan quail]

yes

[feral kernel]

are they really expensive

or slightly over

[cyan quail]

1000, roughly

[feral kernel]

nevermind then

what should i do with a $600 budget

[cyan quail]

if you know you NEED a floyd rose, i would just save up

and the other question is if you need the full range of one

[feral kernel]

i don't need one but i need a whammy bar of some sort

[cyan quail]

then you dont need a floyd rose

[feral kernel]

i also dont need the full range but id like to have a good range

ive never had a whammy before btw

[cyan quail]

how many semitones up and down

[feral kernel]

i honestly dont know but i want an amount i can play around with

not like one semi tone

where i cant do anything with it

[cyan quail]

then just get a decent 2 point trem, and set it up properly

thatll give you full dive bomb range, with 1-2 semitones of pull up range

[feral kernel]

it would have to be a non recessed one

i see

[cyan quail]

yes

[feral kernel]

how much does the floyd do up

because the up range is what i most want

[cyan quail]

a 6 point can dive bomb and shit as well but most people dont know how to set them up properly or cant be fucked to learn

[cyan quail]

a lot more thatn 1-2 semitones

[feral kernel]

what guitars do you recommend

[cyan quail]

none with floyd roses in this price range

[half saffron]

Aot

[feral kernel]

is the 6 point better but people just dont use it well or is the 2 point better

[cyan quail]

not better, not worse

[feral kernel]

did the string just break

[half saffron]

Yep

[cyan quail]

people just whine about it being worse cus their only experience with it is on cheaper guitars that they never bothered setting up properly

but 6 points are just as usable as 2 points

[feral kernel]

what does it do differently

[cyan quail]

nothing

[feral kernel]

what guitar is that?

[cyan quail]

its just mounted differently to the body

so it cant be recessed

but a 2 point can

[half saffron]

Jackson js34 dinky don’t get it the Floyd is so cheap it’s bad

[cyan quail]

it pivots differently as well, so people have a harder time setting it up

2 points are just easier to work for most people

[feral kernel]

what 2 point guitars are there in my budget that you recommend

i was looking at this

https://www.fender.com/en-US/squier-electric-guitars/stratocaster/contemporary-stratocaster-special/0370230536.html

[cyan quail]

most guitars above 400 will have usable 2 points

harley bentons uses wilkinsons if name brand is important to you

[feral kernel]

i cant get harley bentons where i live

i looked absolutely everywhere

[cyan quail]

did you look on the thomann site

[feral kernel]

only way is through reverb with a $2300 shipping fee

[feral kernel]

they dont ship here

and also id like to try the guitar out at a store before i buy it

[cyan quail]

oh so its a "i live in no mans land" scenario

if thats the case

then just most guitars around your 600 dollar price point will work fine

again

you wont have the same pitch up range as a floyd

but youll havea similar dive bomb access

[feral kernel]

oh wait hold up i think they do ship here

[cyan quail]

and frankly, most people ive seen don't even use their floyd to its full extent anyway

[feral kernel]

i looked at their thing a few months ago and it said they dont

now it says they do

they mustve changed it

[cyan quail]

its more of a "i saw a dimebag tutorial video and now i will do all the floyd tricks ever" type situation, so if youre limited to a two point, not really a total loss

[feral kernel]

yeah

one of the things i wanna be able to do

is like

yk the beat it solo

the beginning

thats the type of stuff i wanna do

i think thats a dive bomb

but im not sure

[feral kernel]

@cyan quail https://www.thomann.de/gb/larry_carlton_s3_bk.htm
is this any good

[cyan quail]

yes

sire makes good stuff

[feral kernel]

https://www.thomann.de/gb/chapman_guitars_ml1_x_gloss_black_b_stock.htm
https://www.thomann.de/gb/fender_squier_affinity_strat_fm_hssbb.htm
https://www.thomann.de/gb/fender_sq_contemp_strat_special_mnsbm.htm
https://www.thomann.de/gb/larry_carlton_s3_bk.htm
this is what i found that would work for me. All 2 points

[lilac burrow]

[cyan quail]

as far as quality control and consistency goes, sire is likely at the top of the list compared to the other models yovue shown

why would you compromise for an affinity if your budget is 600

[feral kernel]

i mean i got 600 but if i find something good for cheaper ill consider it

im willing to spend up to 600 tho

on sweetwater i found a prs se silver sky for 600

i heard those are crazy

[lilac burrow]

they're fairly solid, id try out any guitars you're considering

[feral kernel]

sterling by music man is also good i heard

[feral kernel]

yeah for sure im gonna check them out first

[lilac burrow]

prs necks can be chunky

[cyan quail]

just dont opt for the cheapest sterling possible

[lilac burrow]

have to know of it feels

[cyan quail]

theyre really not all that at the lower prices

[feral kernel]

i found a used pacifica 612 for 600

thats a steal

those go for 900 new

and its in good condition

theres just a chip near the top but thats it

also saw some g&l tributes for like 500

[feral kernel]

is the sire s7 a lot better than the s3? It s $100 more

[cyan quail]

best deal youve found today

id go for the 612 if i were you

[feral kernel]

$200*

[cyan quail]

cant comment on individual models like the S7 as ive only played the S3,

that being said id opt for the 612 over the Sire

[feral kernel]

wow i found another 612 for 500

thats even better

it looks good but the body was beat up

its indented on the horn and has a really bad scratch near the bottom

and a chip

like a 1 inch chip and a 2 inch very deep scratch

idek how this guy managed to do that

[feral kernel]

wait @cyan quail what if i buy a cheap floyd guitar but with it i buy a better floyd, like one of those gotohs?

[cyan quail]

how much does the gotoh 1996t cost for you

[feral kernel]

$200

i could get one of those jacksons the other guy told me not to get, which are the cheapest floyd guitars there are (i've checked), and with it i buy the gotoh

[cyan quail]

then that leaves 400 for a guitar, shipping not included

just be aware that that means ur gonna opt for a shittier overall feeling guitar, but with a good tremolo

[feral kernel]

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/JS32DKAANO--jackson-js-series-dinky-arch-top-js32-dka-neon-orange
https://www.thomann.de/gb/gotoh_ge1996t_b_fr_style_tremolo.htm

what does "shittier overall feeling" mean?

[cyan quail]

i wouldnt personally do that, for myself at least. because id rather get a nice guitar with a nice trem, rather than a shit guitar with a great trem

[feral kernel]

is this gotoh the top tier best one there is?

or can i get a slightly better guitar but a slightly worse trem than the gotoh

[cyan quail]

no

[rain oasis]

Probably would also want to budget in for decent locking tuners (though possible the guitar would come with decent ones depending on model)

[cyan quail]

anything below the gotoh would slowly be rolling into shit territory

[feral kernel]

so gotoh is as bad as the good ones get

[cyan quail]

the gotoh is recommended the most because its the cheapest but most decent locking trem out right now

it’s good enough to be punching with top tier, but anything below it rolls into shit territory

because the requirements for a floyd rose being a good floyd rose is higher than a regular trem

[feral kernel]

oh yeah thats true but ill probably end up getting a locking nut which is cheap

[cyan quail]

no locking nut

it wont install properly on a non floyd guitar without invasive modification

and a locking nut on its own doesn’t substitute the system of a locking nut + a floyd rose

[feral kernel]

yeah i mean with the floyd

but i can do locking tuners as well if i have to

damn theyre expensive

$100

[cyan quail]

its like driving a car with unresponsive breaks, 0 suspension, and the seat is made of bricks

sure the car will drive

but itll feel rough

and sometimes will be a detriment

[feral kernel]

so its $200 for the gotoh, $100 for the tuners, and that leaves me with $300 for the guitar. Probably not worth it

[cyan quail]

so you adding a gotoh in it will be like adding a nice engine to a shitty feeling car

[feral kernel]

yeah

i see what you mean

what about the guitar would feel cheap and shitty tho?

[cyan quail]

so you now you have a nice fast engine, but the car still feels miserable to turn and handle

[cyan quail]

frets mainly

electronics as well but thats a relatively cheap fix

fret dressing itself costs about 100-150 dollar as a service

[feral kernel]

i dont really mind bad electronics if you mean pickups because my mooer ge150 can make any sound i really need so its not that big of a deal

[feral kernel]

would that fix the fret problem tho?

[cyan quail]

yes

[feral kernel]

yeah all of that would be too much

the fret stuff, the locking tuners, and the floyd

its gonna cost as much as a decent floyd guitar

like one of those rg550's or a jackson soloist

this guitar comes with a locking nut already tho

so really it would be the fret work and the floyd

[cyan quail]

a big gap between a bad guitar and a good guitar, in my experience, are the frets

leveled and perfect frets will enable lower action, better intonation, better note articulation, virtually 0 string buzz, and a smoother playing experience

so basically almost all of your left hand’s playing

and most cheap guitars will not have well dressed frets

i’ve encountered that on a lot or JS22-32 jacksons as is

i have a js22-7 in my room waiting for me to fret dress it

[cyan quail]

you dont need locking tuners in a floyd system, its redundant when it comes to stability mainly

[cyan quail]

all floyds come with locking nuts

[feral kernel]

yeah

i know what you mean about the bad frets

my guitar rn is a $150 tele

the fretboard doesnt have a finish

like

and idek what type of wood it is but i think its painted which doesnt help

[cyan quail]

so thats why i said id rather have a good guitar with a good bridge, not a bad guitar with a great bridge

the 612 would actually be above average in terms of “good”

[feral kernel]

yeah

but its not about the great bridge its about the floyd

im seeing if i can find a way of getting a floyd

[cyan quail]

the gotoh 1996t would be the minimum i’d go for

and even then, its a nice bridge

[feral kernel]

how do you feel about the contemporary strat hh fr

[cyan quail]

meh, floyd rose special, dookie tier bridge

contemporary line itself tho is decent

[feral kernel]

its a higher-ish end squier which means the neck wont be thaaat bad

[cyan quail]

its a cut slightly above the affinity from the ones ive played

and definitely a cut above the JS jackson series in terms of consistency

[feral kernel]

about the floyd that is bad

[cyan quail]

yes

[feral kernel]

is it bad because it lasts 2 months before it breaks

[cyan quail]

its a floyd rose special

[feral kernel]

or is it just bad to play on

and it just feels like shit to use

all the time

[cyan quail]

its bad that you will likely replace it within a year of regular usage

with a floyd’s quality, a lot of it has to do with the material

it needs a material that can take sustained abuse and usage

floyd rose specials are built with cheap metals that defeats that purpose

so youll be out of tune more often

on top of the higher tolerances of the parts themselves

[feral kernel]

even more often than a regular 2 point trem?

[cyan quail]

yes

[feral kernel]

i heard that the 2 point trems, if you go too hard on them they go out of tune really easily

[cyan quail]

but because regular 2 points have less going on that is directly reliant on tuning stability, theyd be more stable compared to an equally bad floyd

the floyd is a system, it requires all parts to work as they need to to achieve their job of max tuning stability

the 2 point is just the bridge itself

so just less can go wrong on a cheap 2 point than a cheap floyd

and lets say that a hypothetical cheap 2 point and a cheap floyd goes out of tune at the same rate

which would u rather tune up?

a 2 point, or a floyd, whose tuning process takes longer and is more tedious

[feral kernel]

but a more higher end 2 point vs a cheap floyd, the 2 point does better

[cyan quail]

for those reasons id rather just go with a cheap 2 point

yes, a great 2 point is almost indestructible for most people

hard to improve upon a well cut nut and well machined bridge

and a great setup

[feral kernel]

but would you say a $600 guitar is a "cheap" 2 point?

[cyan quail]

hard to say because 600 dollar range guitars are just better built overall, so any existing 2 point on them will be in tune better regardless. but bridges on 600 dollar guitars range from no names to wilkinsons to even a gotoh on some specific models

i feel like you’re getting your balls too twisted about this, so instead of splashing more info all over you

1. Cheap guitars with floyds are dookie
2. cheap guitars with 2/6 point bridges are fine
3. better a cheap regular bridge than a cheap floyd as far as reliability and longevity goes
4. its easier to maintain and “fix” a cheap bridge to enhance stability
5. focus on the guitar as a whole, not just the bridge. every bridge is replaceable and easy to replace, but you cant replace garbage build quality easily nor cheaply

and again, most floyd users i know don’t even dive bomb that often, so another question is if you even currently have the need to do both dive bombs and massive up pitches (because you only mentioned wanting to dive bomb anyway)

[feral kernel]

i feel like the up pitch i would use more than the dive bomb but when you put it that way if i get a shit guitar with a great trem it wont be good so im probably gonna have to go with a 2 point

what about those floyds that dont go into the body so you dont have to cut them? I could put one of those into the slot of the 2 point right?

then I could get a decent guitar

and later down the line i could do the floyd

because its like you said i dont want a shit guitar

[cyan quail]

it depends

all floyds dont need to have a recessed cavity

its just something guitar builders added on after the fact

[feral kernel]

yeah

so could i put one of the non recessed ones into the slot of a 2 point?

[cyan quail]

again

it depends

most cases, its not just “i put 2 point out and put floyd in”

theyre not the same size

body woild need additional routing for the posts

i wouldnt even worry that much about it now

youve still never experienced a tremolo on a guitar

[feral kernel]

yeah

[cyan quail]

so how do you know the floyd is something you wanna commit to long term

[feral kernel]

im overly-worried because i dont know how long im gonna keep this next guitar for so I wanna have what I'm gonan need yk

[cyan quail]

any decent trem would be a good introduction while being easier to setup anyway

[feral kernel]

i dont i just think it can do some cool shit haha

and if i dont get one i might regret it later

[cyan quail]

what do you want to do then

the “cool shit” in question

[feral kernel]

im gonna have to go with the 2 point probably

[feral kernel]

the dive bomb and those weird harmonic things

i think its like a harmonic and a dive bomb together

[cyan quail]

dive bombs are easy

[cyan quail]

easy to do on a 2 point

even a 6 point

[feral kernel]

you said you can do them with a 2 point right

[cyan quail]

i told you 2 and 6 points can dive bomb

[feral kernel]

oh seriously?

yeah

[cyan quail]

its only massive up pitches they cant

[feral kernel]

so the floyd is really just higher bends and more stable (if its a higher tier one)

[cyan quail]

yes

otherwise, you can dive bomb relatively the same

you just cant dive up

and how often do you hear a dive up

because the person on the beat it solo, van halen, his guitar was only set to dive bombs

it couldnt pitch up

his floyd’s cavity wasnt recessed for ups

on the frankencaster at least

dunno about the later evh models

@feral kernel

https://youtube.com/shorts/ewKyM625bGo?si=kneLSucsrDz_Zprd

this is a charvel dk type 2

no floyd

[feral kernel]

yeah i see

[cyan quail]

only a 2 point

[feral kernel]

oh really

wow

can i tell you something

youre not gonna believe

i was watching that exact video as you were typing

[cyan quail]

you mainly only see people doing it on a floyd cus thats kinda what floyds are just known to do

[feral kernel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GemFY8jU0T4

look at this

[cyan quail]

but its perfectly possible on a 2 point

[feral kernel]

look at the first thing this guy did first thing in the video

look how he ended it

is that a dive bomb up?

[cyan quail]

yes

[feral kernel]

thast the one thing the 2 point doesnt do

[cyan quail]

you can pitch up on a 2 point as well

but you need to adjust it to float off the body

it won’t have the full range of a floyd but itll pitch up 1-3 semitones

ill send a video of me doing it on a 2 or 6 point later

rn u just need to understand the capabilities, pros, and cons of each bridge type and decide for yourself which youd settle with

[feral kernel]

look at 1:35 on the video

[cyan quail]

because before this you just thought 2 points could do nothing

[feral kernel]

yep pretty much

[feral kernel]

yeah i did

i didnt know

i thought they were just for vibrato

thats the only thing ive ever seen them do

just vibrato

[cyan quail]

https://youtu.be/ZA5SgkaiYmc?si=IaTafSAieMx2g1SJ

this is a js22 with an aftermarket wilkinson 2 point

in the beginning what he does is a pull up on the bridge

technique called fluttering

[feral kernel]

yeah fluttering

god damn

[cyan quail]

so thats a decent representation of a 2 points up range

[feral kernel]

i did not know the 2 point could do that

[cyan quail]

its not as low as a floyds

[feral kernel]

wtf

thats crazy

[cyan quail]

but it can still up pitch and flutter

dive down range is somewhat similar tho

[feral kernel]

what is that brand

you mentioned it before

[cyan quail]

what

[feral kernel]

wilkinson

[cyan quail]

wilkinson?

[feral kernel]

yeah

[cyan quail]

its just a brand of parts

[feral kernel]

is it like the floyd rose of non floyd roses?

[cyan quail]

no

its just a brand

thats a normal 2 point

all 2 points can do that

harley benton fusions and yamaha 600 series use wilkinson bridges

[feral kernel]

oh so if i get that 612 i saw earlier i get that bridge

[cyan quail]

that uses a 6 point

a little harder to setup for most people

ill show you what my range on a 6 point is later

but 2 points are setup for flutters easier mainly cus the mounting system is different

[feral kernel]

but capability wise its the same

?

[cyan quail]

thatll be dependent on the setup, and how partially the guitar itself. as a higher bridge will cause higher action, leading to requiring to shim a neck

https://youtu.be/QOQIYJLg_2k?si=oLpTaMIGR4ncAUs7

at 1:50 is where the guy starts demonstrating the range you expect on a well setup 6 point

[feral kernel]

wow thats cool

yeah so both 2 and 6 points work

i think that like

if i get a 2 point

and keep it for a few years

by the time i change it

floyd roses will be on cheaper guitars

like decent ones

[cyan quail]

if you do swap the 2 point

i know the supervee is a popular replacement for those wanting floyd level up pitches

it pretty much turns the range of a 2 and 6 point to a floyd

look up video demos of it

“supervee bladerunner”

[feral kernel]

$500

the locking system

[cyan quail]

it doesnt need to lock

[feral kernel]

and their other non locking regular ones are $250

yeah the bladerunners

those are $200-250

which is the gotoh pretty much

[cyan quail]

yeah its an expensive unit, but for good reason. up to tou if you think it justifies the price

[feral kernel]

if it gives those higher ranges i think it could be

[cyan quail]

but again, dont plan on it yet

right now i think just understanding and experiencing a good trem is a good start for you

the supervee is made for those who liek, REALLY wanna have that range on a 2 or 6 point

[feral kernel]

yeah

is it really tall?

so you can bend it back

whih gives it range

is that what it is?

[cyan quail]

it reduces the size of the back

so now the entire bridge can go into the body like a recessed cavity

[feral kernel]

ohhh

yeah

that makes sense

[cyan quail]

you can see the lenfth of the flat plate

on the right is a regular 6 point

[feral kernel]

these bladerunners have 4 holes

are they 2 point or 6 point

[cyan quail]

nah, its done on purpose

it makes the unit universal

altho a specific 2 holed model exists

the 4 hole is mainly intended for 6 point users

but the design makes it kinda universal

but again, thats for the future

[feral kernel]

yeah

future investment

so it really doesnt matter whether i go for a 2 point or 6 point rn because both can do what i want

[cyan quail]

2 point easier to setup for more range, 6 point harder. both are good choices, most people tend to prefer the 2 points for the ease of setup. and theoretically 2 points likely have a little more range, maybe a semitone or two, due to their different mounting system

[lilac burrow]

the ideal guitar would be one with a gotoh 510

idk any other companies than charvel that put them on stock

[feral kernel]

yeah gotohs are good from what i hear

i think im gonna either go for something with a 2 point or the pacifica 612

i also gotta go down to the store to check the guitars out

[cyan quail]

another reason id choose the 612

yamaha’s higher end stuff is usually well consistent, which is good considering the parts on them are nicer name brand shit too

graphtech nut, duncan pickups, grover locking tuners

youll be hard pressed to find these parts on a guitar at the 612’s price

on top of the bridge being a VS50, which from mt own experience was a nice unit

has locked saddles which is a little bonus but not super needed

[feral kernel]

What's "Demo savings" at sweetwater?

[cyan quail]

“this guitar was displayed on a shop wall and people played it here and there so it cant be sold as new”

[feral kernel]

oh so new but cheaper

alright

thats good

[cyan quail]

not new, more like uhh

open box but slightly used

[feral kernel]

yeah basically new

[cyan quail]

ehhh, depending on how long its been at a shop

could have smudges here and there

and definitely nasty strings

[feral kernel]

think about it tho

a $1000 guitar for $700 + $10 strings

and yeah it could be a little bit used

mayyyybe a scratch

but $300 off for a little smudge and some bad strings is a steal