@bronze cave there are also non-gear focus crafts
#1┃mirage-league
violet nymph
bronze cave
ah, true, good catch
violet nymph
Helps fill out crafting options for early-mid gear levels
Then the big guns are all the super gear crafting things
Also you could theoretically find a perfect weapon but the wrong element and convert it to the right one for hella cheap
thick crater
does anyone know when delirium league ends and the next one begins? am wondering if its worth playing delirium (just got back into poe after a long hiatus)
bronze cave
Delirium ends 15th, new starts 19th of this month
violet nymph
16 days roughly
So, if you got %fire but flat lightning youd he able to shift either to fit your needs
thick crater
@bronze cave @violet nymph THANK YOU!!~
violet nymph
Honestly that kind of craft which cost and icon seem to imply, are on the t1 purple crafts. Will make getting high end gear a lot easier
bronze cave
I guess you really need some stashes with "If i get this specific craft, this item could get be nice to use it on"
since you cant store the crafts for later you gotta have the base ready every tiem
violet nymph
@bronze cave I think it'd be better to just target buy seeds for a craft and get a base
bronze cave
Many seeds have a random element to it though
bronze cave
and if you buy an expensive t3 that still has a random effect, you want to be ready for either option i guess
violet nymph
Yeah. For the lower tier ones I think you'll just buy up a lot at once or farm for them. Since they drop 5-6 it seems
bronze cave
yeah the lower tier ones you are just gonna run through a couple t1 maps without killing anything and thats it
really wonder how rare exalt/anull effects are gonna be on t1 seeds
patent flame
so i didnt quite get one thing, how do the plants grow? do we need to add a reagent ourselves or is it based on how many maps we do?
and if the reagent thing is the way to go, do we know if it's tradeable?
stark hull
according to ZiggyD, everytime you meet the NPC, the plants grow 1 stage
dense furnace
can we grow tomato's and make a salad ?
past badger
Farmville 3.11
lucid haven
do we know if seeds will be account or character bound yet?
wispy crest
They will be tradeable
lucid haven
oh yeah, ty
violet nymph
so all those crafts you get from seeds are only available for the limited time of that instance ?
bronze cave
yes
violet nymph
thats bullshit
so if you have an item prepared and you are looking for a specific craft... you gonna skip all the possible good crafts you gonna be getting on the way or you gonna have to run around looking for items to use those crafts on... or trade the crafts and hussle with scammers
bronze cave
kind of, yes. You can see the "category" of what crafts you can get on the seeds, so just dont plant your caster or elemental seeds if you dont have a target for them yet
violet nymph
so what do you do with your grove farm before u got items for crafting?
you just grow seeds ?
bronze cave
grow seeds and store lifeforce for later use
There also also crafts that exchange a unique for another, converts currency etc
violet nymph
plz no...
bronze cave
Also the monsters give exp and drop items, so at the very least its just free monsters
violet nymph
five uniques for one BUT WHAT IS THE ONE
that prophecy is the worst tho
also bestiary crafting random uniques
bronze cave
I'm also kinda sceptical if they manage to tune it in a way that the league mechanic is actually relevant at all stages of the gearing process
violet nymph
if the crafting process generated 3 random uniques to choose from
that could be useful
bronze cave
its probably not
violet nymph
ofc they not gonna make it that wat
bronze cave
they showed the usual "convert one unique jewel into a different one" etc
bronze cave
harvest isnt really designed to do much with uniques anyway
For rares, it takes lot of RNG away
violet nymph
true
bronze cave
because you can now annul off specific mod types etc
violet nymph
thats what the craft says, do you reckon seed is gonna have the same description?
bronze cave
The top craft here
i'm assuming the seed might just be "reveals a random Defense modifier craftinmg option"
But that's just guessing. All the options in the above image have something to do with "Defence", but are all different
So i would assume they all had the "random defence modifier crafting option" text and thats the results of harvesting all
bronze cave
i mean maybe he wants to remove a defence modifier on it
to get more space for the good stuff
violet nymph
for example? what defense modifier can a wand have?
resists are elemental modifiers right?
bronze cave
Regenerate 0.5% of Energy Shield per second if you've Hit an Enemy Recently
This is the only defence mod wands can have haha
violet nymph
Regenerate #% of Energy Shield per second if you've Hit an Enemy Recently
just checked mod db myself 😄
1 mod
haha
to me it feels like a lot of times you will waste the crafts unless you're really hardcore about it with high awareness level
bronze cave
These options are blue, meaning they are t1 seeds.
You can see he has probably like 10-12 seeds planted there, and he has 2 anulls, 2 lucky exalts and some other goopd options
if that is what you get on average for 10 t1 seeds than that would be insane
And you wouldnt really need to worry about wasting some of them
Since planting and harvesting 10 t1 seeds would take like.. 2 minutes
bronze cave
On the other hand, if those assumptions were true, regular ex and rares are going into the dumpster
violet nymph
and save it for higher tier seeds
bronze cave
yeah, and that condensed lifeforce you use to irrigate higher tier seeds
I'm just really excited for the economic implications
Picking up rares is now even less worth it than before, currency you find in maps is probably going to be worth less since harvest crafting replaces some of them with better options
violet nymph
yeah the league is not about drops at all
bronze cave
On the other hand, good base types and uniques are gonna be insanely expensive at the beginning
violet nymph
i never do leagues at the start because i play HC and a lot of times the content is super OP at the start
so im gonna be skipping this until maps for sure
they wont have any items whatsoever
and crafting items that you replace 1 hour later is pointless
bronze cave
I'm always trying to rush maps as fast as possible (sc), so i never touch the league mechanic until maps
I guess if i find a seed that gives "speed modifiers" aka ms boots, ill try it
bronze cave
yeah but thats probably just going to say "random elemental craft" or something like that
for ele its probably still good if the crafts are as good or better than the +dmg crafts from vendor recipe, but i guess it depends how rare they are
rich plinth
If I play mine build, how can I improve my def? ppl usually use dodge and evade but I feel unsafe
bronze cave
thats probably a question for #build-fixing
wild arch
Do we know which maraketh keystone is getting put on the tree?
bleak forge
so wats the diference betwen the types of seeds apart from the crafting recipes they give
i mean more like are the blue ones monsters with cold damage and the purpule ones monstrers with chaos damage ?
wild arch
I don't think they have any special mobs
tender geyser
ok so I was thinking, the whole collectors and dispensers and all of that shit, do you think it will be free to just build however you like, or will you have to upgrade something to have more of them, or buy them like you have to do with delve flares and other stuff like that? what do you think?
wild arch
You need to mix them around to grow higher tier seeds
tender geyser
I was talking about the infrastructure
like the poles and all the machines
in the trailer they look like a seperate item, so I'm guessing there's some sort of reward system implemented
I just hope it isn't something that you will have to grind in order to make things efficient and you can plan things ahead without all of the hassle of knowing stuff before you do it
untold dragon
Some more thoughts/calculations about growing/harvesting. T3 seeds require 4x T2 seeds and 300 life force. The 4x T2 seeds you grow will need 4x T1 each (can overlap) and 100x4 Life Force. So you'll need at least 700 life force for each T3 seed.
T3 & T4 possible seed layouts https://i.imgur.com/5HQDs8X.png
obviously T4 seed will require lots of life force
tender geyser
but you still have to provide them with lifeforce right
so you'll need a dispenser or a couple of them actually
since the seeds need diffrent flavours of life cool-aid to grow
or maybe if you just grow the seeds of the same color, it would require only one color of life force, mb misunderstood how they work
untold dragon
yeah there are 3 types, primal, vivid, and wild.. I think it would be easiest to have a grow them all together, but it is possible you can send more than 1 flavor of life force to a garden patch
but i'm not sure if everything of 1 type has to be adjacent. in the T4 seed it's hard to make all the t1 and t2 adjacent to each other
... and I also don't know if you can harvest your T4 seed without harvesting the other ones. If so, you would just replant another T4, feed it life force and wait 15 cycles. But if harvesting the T4 pops the whole batch, you'll have to replant everything
tender geyser
in trailer he clicks on the machine
to get the seeds to turn into monsters so it's probably an aoe
also I wonder if the color really makes a diffrence
like in the trailer there's yellow ones that change the stockets of a an item, and the one shown on the website has the phys modifier, maybe they all share a pool and only the high tiers have special modifiers to them that based on their color or something
also I can see why they wouldn't want you to just pop a tier 4 seed and be done with it, it's a boss after all
but idk, ppl will still find ways to farm them
violet nymph
Color is related to mod pools bot rarity
There is rarity of each of the colors
This is seen in the mods they've shown off in the menu
Cost and iconography show us differences in tiers
untold dragon
it's possible we just haven't seen a lot of yellow (vivid) yet.. The mods themselves obviously will be weighted distribution, but I think vivid, wild, primal are all going to be similarly common
violet nymph
Yeah. I think they'll be pretty even. Just some may have a more desirable top end.
Which will create a price increase in trade league
untold dragon
@tender geyser I think there will be plenty of "junk" seeds.. so you just setup an area in your garden to grow those, kill them, ignore the craft, and just condense the lifeforce. Then you'll have a storage array for each lifeforce type. Did anyone see how much lifeforce the banks hold?
tender geyser
@untold dragon that actually sounds true looking at most things that ggg has done, also the battery system that you would keep and just use for big and rewarding seeds seems a nice idea
tender pawn
i think it's unlikely, but you know, nets
violet nymph
I mean look at the costs
untold dragon
haha yeah, on release i could see just the 250 ones, then people fill dozens of banks and start to request a bigger tank
violet nymph
Those costs seem kinda low for 250 cap
barren crescent
@untold dragon the sprinklers will also need some radius
untold dragon
sprinklers?
violet nymph
Dispersers
tender pawn
250 cap is low, considering t3 require 20 per plant per cycle and 15 cycles to be done
so it's like 300 for a single t3
barren crescent
afaik you can postpone the growth of those high tier plants without downside
barren crescent
IE run out of X lifeforce bank, you cna just plant more and the high tier plant won't die out meanwhile
tender pawn
oh, definitely, considering you dont even need to come to garden for plants to grow, plants dying because of starvation would be just dumb
untold dragon
you can also be adding life force to your banks as the process is happening, so your T3/T4 plot is using lifeforce as another plot is pumping more in, but you'll have to go and press the button to tell it to send more
tender geyser
you go around quarry, getting low tier seeds and powering the whole process while clicking the growths or whatever and making time go faster if you would like to rush the boss process I suppose
there's no way they aren't gonna do what they did in literally every league and not let you cheese it a bit for a week before they patch it somehow
that is if ilvl of the seeds doesnt matter to the whole lifeforce thing and just the seeds by themselves
untold dragon
yeah, it does seem that getting junk seeds and cycling the farm could be achieved by using a fast non-map zone. In metamorph though, they made it so if you were 9 levels above the zone there was no metamorph parts..
violet nymph
Just dont level 4head :^)
tender geyser
I just honestly hope with all of that 2 handers hype and all we will actually be able to level a melee build rather smoothly with the seed crafts and all that jazz
bronze cave
honestly i think the harvest crafts will make it insanely easy
tender geyser
I really want to see 2 hander slam slow attacks somehow doing the same work as impale, but I don't think we would get there
bronze cave
You can already craft %phys reliably with the vendor recipe
tender geyser
oh yeah
bronze cave
and now you can probably get flat phys semi reliably with harvest
having both on a leveling weapon is insane
tender geyser
what I meant is that cris said in there's gonna be crafts that act like alchs chaos and whatnot
so even if you cant do that to a weapon you could always "alch" a belt with seed system to get more %phys on it
but I wonder how reliable it's gonna actually be
bronze cave
yeah but that wasnt really an issue anyway since you got essences pretty early
tender geyser
compared to other leveling methods
bronze cave
spell leveling will always be faster
tender geyser
gem levels are a bitch and a half huh
bronze cave
but i mean melee leveling isnt really that bad right now
tender geyser
I meant gem leveling scalling
untold dragon
back to farm cycling, chris did say the garden is account-wide, not character specific... so you could use an alt and cycle your farm at Tidal island
tender geyser
he means if they would implement a thing like they did in metamorph where you won't get metamorphs if you are too high of a level
bronze cave
I dont think progressing the garden ever be a problem
tender geyser
and it's just to speed up the process, not do the maps but kinda do the cycles in low lvl zones to for example chain bosses
bronze cave
tier 1 maps are basically infinite once you reach maps, and before that you just do quarry
tender geyser
oh yeah it's hypothetical if they would implement some kind of system where you can't farm quarry
bronze cave
yeah, just run through the t1 map then without killing anything, no reason to use a low level area for it
I dont think anything will stop you from running low level content to make seeds grow
Its just that you wont find the higher tier seeds in lower level content
I think most of it comes down to how high the ratio of ex/anul effects is with t1 seeds
tender geyser
dont the high tier seeds only come from lower being farmed?
untold dragon
true.. also chris said harvesting plants can drop seeds also, it sounded like there might be some seeds that can only drop from harvesting plants
bronze cave
I dont remember them saying that so specifically
only that you require lower tier plants to be planted around your higher tier seeds
tender geyser
maybe I just confused something
untold dragon
t4 boss for sure i think
bronze cave
but im not sure myself
tender geyser
it would make sense for higher tier maps to drop better seeds
like oils
from blight
bronze cave
In the end, if ex/anul effects are very common in t1 seeds, then quarry farm or similar is big on the menu
even if the higher tiered seeds give you more specific ex/anul options than lower tiered seeds, just running through and growing your t1 seeds would give you so many ex/anul opportunities it would be worth it
tender geyser
also what you guys think, how many reddit threads there will be in first week saying shit like "I GAVE MY ARMOR TO A GUY TO SIX LINK IT FOR CHEAP AND HE STOLE IT GGG DOESNT DO ANYTHING TO SCAMMERS IM SICK AND TIRED AND I WILL NEVER BUY MTX AGAIN"
bronze cave
So i kinda hope t1 seeds are comparativly bad, only adding the weaker crafts like a chaos, alch, etc effect, while ex/anull are gated behind higher tiered seeds, forcing you to actually run high tier maps
bronze cave
On the trailer we have seen ex/anul being plentyful on t1 seeds already though
maybe that was just a test build or whatever, but idk
tender geyser
maybe they are wieghted
untold dragon
yeah some of that was hand-edited in at the end to showoff the cool stuff
i'm quite certain you won't be able to target annul with t1 lol
tender geyser
oh right chris said that himself in the interview rigth
bronze cave
Like if you look at this image here, the options are blue, which means it is a t1 seed.
Likely a "random defence modifier" seed. All options are level 1 and have a low cost. This would indicate this is a regular low tier seed.
They are like 10-12 charges total, indicating he harvested 10-12 plants. 2 out of those are anull, 2 are lucky ex etc.
If that was the average crafts you get from 10 random t1 seeds..
https://i.imgur.com/HxlkKao.png
yeah, this better be hand picked
cerulean canyon
Idk, I mean Chris himself said they’re fully aware this crafting system is absolutely busted, so we should abuse it while we can. It sounds like they’re trying to give us the power on par with Synthesis crafts, without the league mechanic a lot of people didn’t like. (With possible a new league mechanic people won’t like)
bronze cave
Its about the timing in your gear progression you get access to that power level though
untold dragon
@bronze cave blue doesn't mean T1 - blue means primal. Primal can be T1,T2,T3.. we've just seen T1 primal
bronze cave
ah, you're right. those are probably still t1 since the life force gathered from that many is only 90 (or 100)
cerulean canyon
Another thing I was wondering, it showed some seeds saying “spawns a level 92 monster when harvested” have we ever seen that high level of mobs before? Aren’t the highest bosses like lv86 or 87?
Idk how much that will actually contribute to their difficulty, just caught my eye.
bronze cave
I havnt seen such a high level on a seed, do you have an image on that?
cerulean canyon
It was in the trailers, not sure of exactly where
untold dragon
bronze cave
yeah 78 ive seen too
but not 92
In the trailer, chris plants 6 t1 seeds that spawn lvl 75 monsters, so thats like t7 maps if it scale the same way. He gets 2 exalt crafts out of that. That would be pretty bonkers
red jackal
bronze cave
hm, interesting. Wonder if thats staying or if its also just an early prototype. The crafting in that video is messed up, and bex said they had to fumble some non finished stuff together for the video
violet nymph
I could see it staying
I believe that the monster level will probably be a variable roll based on the tier
So like... t19 maps (monster level 86) could drop 88-93 or whatever it may be
It's not like the monsters themselves will be that challenging outside of bosses, I see no harm in the level scaling up beyond any monsters we've seen before
rare rose
What is the ilvl cap on items now? Wouldn't that have to go up if there were these high level mobs
violet nymph
its always been 100
bronze cave
you can already get ilvl 100 items through divcards, there are just no mods that require above 87 (?)
violet nymph
86 is the lowest ilvl for all mods to roll on all items
There's really no point in going higher because 86 is so hard to get in normal gameplay (without using ivory watchstones or this new system), you basically need to run pure chayula, shaper, elder, awakener, or strongboxes with + to monster level
violet nymph
I dont think that will be popular, theres really not enough monsters available to be grown in the garden for it to be profitable xp
violet nymph
also, trading for hundreds of high level seeds would be TERRIBLE compared to chayula rotas
not to mention the value of the crafts which may drive them up
tender geyser
ok since I'm kind hyped up and chris confirmed that the crafts will be crazy, do you think there's gonna be one which changes base types of items?
tame copper
Wait..the next expansion is stardew valley?
violet nymph
it seems like there is a mod that acts as a random influence slam if thats what you mean
changing base while keeping mods is probably not a viable option for crafting though
tender geyser
shame
it would really get into the whole "we want to make random rares you find on the ground more impactful" since you can roll nice things on a very wrong base
make it a tier 3 seed and completly random and people will gamble their lives away just to get a perfect item
rare rose
From what we've seen do you think this is a great league for SSF? or will the reduced map loot make it harder than the last couple leagues to ssf?
rich mortar
krangled league
rare rose
I don't know what Krangle/Krangled means... and at this point I'm too afraid to ask
wild arch
This is probably going to be the best ssf league ever
wanton rivet
imagine having the incursion crafting bench but its the league mechanic
its gonan be a fun league
wild arch
Ok so what are all the slam skills
Ground slam, tectonic slam, earthquake, ice crash and maybe sunder are the ones that come to mind
tawny pasture
Leap Slam
wild arch
Doryani's touch might be one too
tender geyser
that's all of them
they are also adding new skills, so I suppose like one or two of them will be slams
wild arch
Wonder if they still remember that shockwave support is a thing they made
wild arch
That was their first failed attempt at trying to make slow melee a thing
And I bet it'll have no synergy whatsoever with the slam support
tender geyser
melee slow slams has one crucial flaw
it isn't cyclone so impale is shit on it
and that's it
if they make numbers similar to what impale is doing it's gonna be playable
wild arch
Impale has nothing to do with speed tho
tender geyser
you stack impale based on the number of hits on an enemy
what I mean is that you have to go in and do like 3 eqs until you fully stack impale
by that time most cyclone builds with similar build values would kill the boss already
wild arch
Faster stacking works better against weaker enemies
Full impale will double or whatever your damage regardless of how fast you stack it
Slow slam's problem isn't the fact that it's weaker than impale, but the fact that it's slow
And besides, judging by the current trend, they're gonna kill cyclone property now and make brands the meta again
Imagine thinking that melee will ever be relevant 
mortal bridge
whats harvest about
echo shale
meta crafting
wild arch
Grow monsters -> kill them -> get op crafting options
fair prairie
I thought Harvest was about a rework of the lab
celest atlas
any word on which kind of fighting gets buffed in the next league .. trying to figure out which one might be good
wild arch
If you watch the trailer it pretty clearly says brands and slam attacks
celest atlas
ah .. just getting to that on Ziggy Q&A .. must have missed it in the actual trailer
deep wave
will ele weakness-flesh offereing-descrate-arcanist brand work?
also does arcanist brand deal damage?
torpid sonnet
its not comfirmed, but probably the brand itself wont deal damage
deep wave
can i add damage to it to trigger EE though?
torpid sonnet
probably not
wild arch
Arcanist brand casts linked spells
deep wave
can you do stuff like BV brand?
native sonnet
yes but it just add the BV on u
deep wave
wait...shock nova worked fine
violet nymph
shock nova and bv are entirely different skills
silver kettle
Shock Nova and BV work very differently
Arcanist Brand overrides where the spell originates from
That works for spells which care about that, like Shock Nova or projectiles
violet nymph
arcanist brand works with BV like astral projector works with BV
i.e. it doesn't
not the way you'd want it to, anyway
silver kettle
But BV doesn't care, it just adds a buff to you
violet nymph
(that being said BV arcanist brand is probably smooth as fuck)
attach it to a boss and never have to cast
deep wave
what is WI?
wet plaza
whispering ice
violet nymph
icestorm
native sonnet
u can already sustain BV pretty decently before, using it on brand and losing a link is meh imo
also means u cant precharge before boss
silver kettle
Arcanist Brand works with WI
deep wave
you can only attch 2 brands though no?
wet plaza
thanks ❤️
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/gvfpd2/path_of_exile_harvest_official_trailer_and/fsohmtv/ was a bit confused here with the wording
deep wave
so for dps totems>brands?
violet nymph
i think bex was just confused
native sonnet
brands>totems still imo
violet nymph
no reason for WI not to work with AB
if totems and mines can work with it, AB can work with it
wet plaza
was my initial take too but if i read that i love the clarification
violet nymph
some skills will not work very well with AB because of how brands target enemies; they target only the enemy they're attached to, so while Arc brands should be very good, purifying flame brands will be bad
normal kraken
is the brand activation frequency based on the spell cast time?
violet nymph
sire of shards ball lightning arcanist brand should be fun
native sonnet
we dont know yet for the new ones, especially for arcanist, since its a trigger which means cooldown
violet nymph
but sire of shards BL is my favorite thing ever so 🤷
native sonnet
would be nice if castspeed affect the cd somehow
violet nymph
catspeed
oooh
arcanist brand sire of shards soulrend cat
arcanist brand could be good with soulrend right
normal kraken
woah I wonder how it interacts with the ice nova fb combo
normal kraken
it's kind of a new case, I can see it either way
it could be a lot more comfy than manually casting both
just deploy brand and aim with fb
violet nymph
hmm
compact junco
now just fix the lag with WI and WI will be meta :d
wild arch
The brands are technically you casting from a different position so it should work
normal kraken
wi's performance is a real shame, my last one was lioterally unplayable because of lag
violet nymph
brands specifically target enemies they're attached to
normal kraken
it would drop to 5 fps with successive casts
sterile estuary
Watching the trailer another time...but it is just me or there's 4 type of seed (yellow,green,blue and pink)?
bronze cave
Are WIs performance issues only at lower end rigs, or is it a server issue?
compact junco
yea that was basically my experience too when u was messing with WI
deep wave
what green seed?
wild arch
There are no green seeds
normal kraken
I have a mid-high tier setup
compact junco
its just insane amount of particles, idk why that would be server side, but poe is weird so maybe it is. but you can literally just stand in HO, spam WI go to 1fps even on good rigs
wet plaza
i also wonder if apeps gets another buff after seeing it in the trailer
bronze cave
what's your gpu/cpu? @normal kraken
violet nymph
the poison wand?
native sonnet
even with firestorm unleash cascade it becomes unplayable after like the 7th unleash cast
cant imagine with WI
compact junco
well apeps rage is pretty strong already, if there was actually skill to use it with
normal kraken
firestorm did get some performance improvements a few patches ago, right?
normal kraken
I didn't test it but I do remember reading that in the notes
bronze cave
So for WI arcanist brand, to determine if its good we would need to know how many times per second it activates a linked spell? Do we know that?
wet plaza
anything feels better than cwc tbh
silver kettle
Fwiw the news post today has details of all the brand stuff except for numbers. I tried to make sure that all the major questions I've seen got addressed, but if there are things that got missed we can probably get to them in the comments on the Reddit thread
native sonnet
dual apep BV poison
bronze cave
the current brands are one activation every 0.6/0.75 seconds
bronze cave
whats the rough activation rate of cyclone coc?
native sonnet
biggest question is the CD and if cast speed has any effect on it (like other brands)
hopefully we get those 🙂
steel brand - can impale
compact junco
impale brand would be 🤘
wild arch
What chaos brand
compact junco
none, but i can dream
wild arch
You can make your own with arcanist
native sonnet
DP AB, still cost ur life though 😦
compact junco
yeah because we have a lot of good chaos skills in the game for arcanist brand :d
barren crescent
Fwiw the news post today has details of all the brand stuff except for numbers. ...
barren crescent
someone remind me to remove that pin once it goes live
native sonnet
really hope that cast speed does smthg to AB
wet plaza
nyan cat brando
bronze cave
what gems do i put on WI to make it lag real bad? i wanna see how bad this gets. Just unleash, spell cascade?
compact junco
brand
native sonnet
AB-smthg reverse knockback, bye mobs
normal kraken
increased duration
swift pagoda
woke spell cascade and inc duration
and some cast speed
and it will wreck your performance
rigid stream
Echo
swift pagoda
Pledge of hands
rigid stream
And im Not Sure If shockwave totem Reverse knockback isnt better than AB. AB needs a Link itssels and you need empires grasp, so you only have a 3 Link
Thats Not very good
compact junco
yeah you just have to switch from WI to Pledge really quick :d
barren crescent
it deals more dps to hardware than enemies
compact junco
cast on BSOD, ez fix
bronze cave
lvl 21 faster casting, lvl 1 spell cascade and lvl 1 inc duration puts me at 84 fps from 144
wet plaza
do you have int
bronze cave
428 int
wet plaza
because if not its a kinda meaningless test
bronze cave
why is int necessary for that test though?
normal kraken
int adds flat duration
native sonnet
int scale base duration for WI
bronze cave
with vulkan on the same setting i get 104 fps
barren crescent
Vulkan should specifically smoothen the performance under extreme loads
but it has a lot of errors for now
wet plaza
cant really say much about WI but i know anything VD murdered my fps
be it VD miner or VD spellslinger
swift pagoda
when Chromenut went crashing mode icestorm yesterday, Vulcan crashed and DX11 stayed active at 2 fps
bronze cave
If i put a lvl 23 increased duration instead of a lvl 1 i go down 20 fps to 84
and my gpu starts making funny sounds
compact junco
and now imagine you can reach 8s duration with enough int, and then also woke cascade on top
violet nymph
dx11 didn't have it, vulkan does
compact junco
and you have WI experience
bronze cave
yeah i wanna try it, but im too lazy to buy all that gear ins tandard
but i imagine its not fun
normal kraken
I might still have my last wi char around
I will update the game and give it a try
but yeah I wouldn't touch wi until it gets a specific performance line on the patch notes
compact junco
i copied some random dude's WI build from poe.ninja, and I have no idea how are they even playing this. i guess being immortal helps
normal kraken
it's just set to failure sooner or later
compact junco
like, lol
bronze cave
im at 4s duration right now lel
compact junco
oh i see, no spell cascade :d
bronze cave
this guy has double that
violet nymph
awakened elemental focus 🤢
violet nymph
why would a cold build ever use ele focus except to inflate pob dps
normal kraken
wi gets free chill anyway
violet nymph
you can't HoI shatter with chill
compact junco
well that build does not have hoi
normal kraken
it isn't a crit build though
compact junco
well EO is what you do on stat stacking build
normal kraken
int just scales too well with wi, it isn't worth going crit over it
compact junco
because you want to stack stats
same with howa. you want all the int, int is good :d
barren crescent
I'm just waiting for the massive complaining storm that comes from Vulkan crashing on league launch for some reason
compact junco
that sounds like regular league launch to me
violet nymph
i hope they're buffing a specific unique for a meme build i've written
compact junco
also, split personalities are balanced
normal kraken
also hopefully reach of the council is included in the reworked uniques
it's been like 3 patches since it was almost ready
compact junco
i completely forgot about that, yeah (the bow thing, not split personality thing)
it was supposed to be rewored in bow league right, or almost
violet nymph
yeah i'm not touching split personality for this stat stacking meme build
barren crescent
I mean they aren't
violet nymph
would be unethical
bronze cave
6s WI duration puts me at 55 fps. I guess an additional 2 seconds and it will get really bad
barren crescent
but I'd expect them to become
normal kraken
pretty sure the rotc rework waws teased before the bow league
violet nymph
the damage is garbo
bronze cave
Does anyone have an awakened spell cascade in standard i can borrow for a sec to see how much it murders my WI fps?
normal kraken
I think it was when they added the greater volley line
that announcement had something along "we plan to do something else, but for the moment we have this"
compact junco
i guess that shockwave v2 will not work with vaal skills
wet plaza
sadness
violet nymph
i hope they buff shockwave
i.e. make it link with other supports so it does actual damage
violet nymph
it's mace/staff isn't it
wet plaza
yup
violet nymph
it's still bad for damage too
and the 1s cooldown is shit too
which i guess is similar to the new support
compact junco
its alright dps support for its utility imo, but i am not using maces and staves, they are just bad
wet plaza
^
brave pulsar
I did varunastra eq with it when it came out but swapped to cyclone because lol legion
red wharf
is sunder going to be tagged as slam?
devout osprey
¯_(ツ)_/¯
clever mountain
Halleluja! Another trash uniq 🙂
I do not really understand why the game needs trash new uniq
quiet geyser
Its seems pretty decent tho for some "cheap" builds.
you can still reduce the elementel resistence of the enemy so some combustin/ee/sorching ray builds should be realy good with that
echo shale
yeah it's not that bad
quiet geyser
Its not an endgame unique, but its a realy good one for ssf or budget builds
clever mountain
You are right @quiet geyser for some budget build can be decent.
native sonnet
am unsure about the wording though, depending on how it's actually suppose to work, there's an interpretation/scenario where its broken op
"each withered you have inflicted on them" (no recently), and not "each wither on them"; how does that translate for a boss that I have inflicted 100 withered on them.
Albeit some has expired after x time, but they still count towards the "withered i have inflicted"?
quiet geyser
wither stacks to 16 if i am not wrong
normal kraken
no way that's how it works
native sonnet
yeah i agree there's no way it should work like that, but the wording though
quiet geyser
it probebly just means, you cant use totems
so it only counts the wither stacks you applied not totems/traps/minions
Is what i would assume
native sonnet
its like the assassin's "for each poison you inflicted recently"
except without the recently condition
viper! this mystery is killing me ....
silver kettle
no comment because I can't be 100% sure in my answer (I didn't work on this item at all)
I'd be like 90% sure, but that's not good enough
native sonnet
yeah, just thinking if it works the way i think above, then it is broken
torpid sonnet
huh, that could be it
low kindle
Ignore them unless you are a build that lowers enemy resistances by a lot
torpid sonnet
still need a way to apply wither though
violet nymph
occultist 🤷
native sonnet
glove comes with 25% chance
barren crescent
Voltaxic galvanic arrow
torpid sonnet
25% for 2 secs isnt close to enough
low kindle
20% is not a lot
violet nymph
it is if you use barrage
barren crescent
too bad I don't think you can get those gloves as shaped, for no reason at all
normal kraken
there isn't really a need to get hybrid damage
you can just ignore the native wither effect
low kindle
How are you going to lower resists as voltaxic rift
native sonnet
the wording doesnt say (active) wither on them, just each withered u have inflicted, so its fine for them to expire i guess
low kindle
Pretty sure it's not fine
native sonnet
just going by the wording
torpid sonnet
that is a weirdly specific wording
quiet geyser
Dude
native sonnet
its similar to assassin's "each poison you have inflicted (recently)" without the recently
quiet geyser
you litterly said the same thing 10 mni ago
and we had the same disgusion
it only tracks the active stacks on an enemy
native sonnet
and im making my case that the wording doesnt suggest that
quiet geyser
and for assasin its a special stat wich only the one acandancy has
Again YOU, your wither stacks not totem/mines/traps/minions
native sonnet
yes, im not saying anything about totem/minions.mines/trap
native sonnet
right?
torpid sonnet
the point is the wording could be to specify that withered from totems etc doesnt apply
quiet geyser
Wich sounds more reasonable
native sonnet
yeah i agree, just that the way its currently worded is weird/suggest the possibility of the broken scenario
quiet geyser
But he says it now tracks how many includinc decayed wither stacks an enemy has/had
It rather implies, that you cant use totems
torpid sonnet
the totem restriction is also pretty weird imo
violet nymph
did you know: bow scion now has the ability to get like close to max block/spell block with 0 currency now
at least in 3.11
native sonnet
3.10 or 3.11?
quiet geyser
Glacning blows?
violet nymph
pretty early in the league i'm going to make a scion that uses glancing blows and rearguard, with the gladiator mini-ascendancy 🙂
torpid sonnet
thats not max block though, thats ""max block""
native sonnet
that's unconfirmed right
violet nymph
you'll have 78% attack block and 60% spell block with a good rearguard
native sonnet
IIRC only agnostic and the soul tether keystones confirmed
wild arch
There were pics of glancing near scion life and supreme ego somewhere
wild arch
Then again
It's hard to believe that both these keystones are practically next to eachother
violet nymph
what do you mean
barren crescent
Ziggy stated that bex had said to him that rest of the tree shown along side of Agnostics was forged
but then again he was surprised that there were those keystones shown
wild arch
Wha
violet nymph
and chris said there were 8 or 9 keystones being added to the tree, with some of them coming from timeless jewels
wild arch
So is agnostic there or nah
violet nymph
yes it is
barren crescent
agnostics is there
wild arch
Ok
barren crescent
and location ought to be correct
quiet geyser
(does forged in this context mean it was fake?) (not nativ english sorry)
barren crescent
but everything else shown there
yeah it should have been fake on the rest of the tree shown apart of agnostics
but no confirmation if the tree was wrong or not on the materials given to ziggy
wild arch
I wonder what the new slam is gonna be
barren crescent
so don't take anything aside of the thing announced specifically as confirmation that for example glancing blows would be coming
wild arch
We don't have a lightning one
barren crescent
(it prolly will be, but who knows until its confirmed)
tawny pasture
the doryiani isnt one light slam ?
barren crescent
ggg is spooked by chaos hit dmg skills
violet nymph
doryani's touch is most certainly not a "slam" probably
barren crescent
strike
wild arch
But you literally slam your fist into the ground
violet nymph
are we calling any non-strike melee skills slam?
tawny pasture
The character uses their fist to slam the ground in front of them, with less attack speed, but more
wild arch
I'm assuming any attacks where you slam the ground are slams
tawny pasture
well slam is in the description
violet nymph
it'd be pretty useless for it to be considered a slam
since it's unarmed only
and the slam support stuff is 2h
tawny pasture
Damage Effectiveness: Damage from secondary sources like 'added damage' supports or heralds applies at 600% of their listed value.
😮
barren crescent
yup
wild arch
Conc path might be a slam 🤔
barren crescent
it probably will become one 
barren crescent
Sunderboi the 3rd btw
fair prairie
do you guys think the new lab types will have an updated layout with new traps, and a monster level increase?
patent canyon
perhaps
thorny shale
i kinda doubt theres going to be brand new layouts
vast gazelle
i hope lab just dies and is replaced with a more interesting way to get asc
native sonnet
3.11: lab is now rebranded as "The Maze"
barren crescent
Lab league would be pretty fun as homage for final league pre 4.0
devout osprey
"the map is now radomized for each person"
native sonnet
every map is like lab, split into 10 zones and bosses into 3 phases
dont like backtracking? rip half ur map
barren crescent
💦
vast gazelle
I think i just heard everyone who wants the nostalgia of old poe back suddenly sign into discord at once
native sonnet
beyond is now core mechanic
gloomy bay
Area is Lunaris Temple Level 2
wanton rivet
ill be happy when ascendancy progression not tied to lab
bronze cave
i really like lab in general
Have we seen any seeds so far that did not have a random component in their effect?
barren crescent
Don't think so, but the crafting table had guaranteed socket stuff
echo shale
they could do legacy before 4.0
bronze cave
i liked reliquary keys
violet nymph
so legacy league 2 probably won't happen ever
violet nymph
GLANCING BLOWS CONFIRMED
@native sonnet @barren crescent
so there we go
my build concept is functional now
frosty aurora
native sonnet
gz
bold basalt
i might finally get to use them
wild arch
Scion build with all 5?
barren crescent
Oh my
swift pagoda
Glancing Blows Agnostic Divine Flesh 60% MoM Brand Heiro
quiet geyser
Why is wind dancer in such a bad spot 🙃
coarse moon
where is it?
violet nymph
use double ahn and the anvil with glancing blows to get 82% block/spell block and lots of dodge
problem is build is zdps lol
i'll mess with it once i have currency in harvest i guess
bronze cave
I'm so torn between just playing that miner to get to high tier bases fast and get rich, or play 2h/brand/whatever new stuff right off the bat
wary cloak
that life tho
rocky vine
What's the difference between dodge and evasion?
violet nymph
dodge is a percentage
evasion is a number that is measured against an enemy's accuracy
violet nymph
dodge is a constant percent, evasion decays as enemies miss you
i think dodge comes first
rocky vine
Luck permitting, you can dodge everything, right?
rocky vine
Yeah, Unwavering mobs?
violet nymph
no, evasion is weird
rocky vine
Oh so just Math will stop that
rocky vine
Evasion is more like frequency between hits
bronze cave
hm, so both new brands are the "it takes a while until the damage ticks in" dangerous kind of skill, i'm not liking it too much
kindred dagger
Is it just me or agnostic seems a bit too strong ?
the new keystone, and not so far to get especialy if you go as a templar i guess which allready got some mana synergies
languid path
it's not new, it's been around for like a year or two now, and you'll be surprised how much mana it eats
marsh wyvern
whats the max recovery rate by default anyway?
languid path
it's not hey free sustain keystone that you just randomly grab
kindred dagger
if you block you are not counted as beeing hit right ? i think it works like that, in that case wind dancer seems pretty strong as well for block build
coarse moon
blocking requires being hit
kindred dagger
@languid path what are you talking about, agnostic is a new keystone
coarse moon
agnostic is directly ported from timeless jewels
languid path
no it's not, it's been available from timeless jewel since legion
kindred dagger
i dont remember seeing this one in timeless but ok
coarse moon
its on militant faith iirc
coarse moon
if you can support it its a massive source of sustain
tawny pasture
so almost a year
kindred dagger
and it was used right ? now its a keystone its pretty damn easy to get and that mean that you can add a new timeless jewel
kindred dagger
ok, seems a bit busted to me
wild arch
Then go ahead and use it
marsh wyvern
i cant think of any situation where it would be good. was thinking blood magic maybe but no as it removes your mana
coarse moon
life sustain on casters
wild arch
Trickster has infinite mana sustain
coarse moon
like yea, trickster for example
trickster, life-based, using mana flasks as well as the ascendancy
not to mention you could even add in indigon
there's a couple extrapolations of this that make rf completely sustainable
in a normal build
wild arch
Just more synergy with big mana pool
kindred dagger
i dont see the problem, there is a lot of spell that doesnt cost you any real mana, and there are allready lots of build that doesnt reserve a lots of mana to do things, and obviously those build got great mana regen so you just got your health regen% PLUS at some point mana regen if needed, i guess its an alternative for MOM
coarse moon
even with mom, life sustain is still potentially a challenge in and of itself
thats mostly where agnostic comes in
wild arch
Keep in mind that the keystone is located pretty much on the opposite side of generic caster trees
kindred dagger
not really
kindred dagger
a lots of caster build arent that far from there and most likely it will be use by templar which are right on it
coarse moon
its not too far
rocky vine
It's near MoM right?
rocky vine
Yeah too nice if you have the mana
kindred dagger
agnostic is right near the large nodes of HP% in the midle tree
rocky vine
(Lemme pair it with supreme ego)
kindred dagger
for, clarity ?
wild arch
Just pair agnostic and MoM on trickster 
rocky vine
Also, is there a minimum action speed?
wild arch
0 = no animations
marsh wyvern
wasnt there a vid of somebody with incredibly low action speed
rocky vine
...sooo
wild arch
Freeze is straight up just 0
marsh wyvern
oh no that was reduced movement speed
rocky vine
Winterbrand to get -30, 20/20 Temp Chain for 24 (vs boss).... 46% Remaining via some kind of other effect
wild arch
Big bosses like shaper and stuff can't be reduced below a certain amount
The rest can just be permafrozen
violet nymph
Ok so penance brand clear looks very satisfying, but the single target will propably be shit wont it
wild arch
@rocky vine looks like the endgame bosses can't be reduced below 70%
If I'm understanding the value correctly
clever mountain
Yes that is correctly
violet nymph
especially after reading this
river silo
So, any news about the arcanist Brand's interaction with spells granted by uniques like Whispering Ice?
devout osprey
its triggerable so should work
wild arch
Wait so
If BV brands will cast the blades on you
Does that mean mobility skill brands will also move you?
bronze cave
yes
wild arch
What's gonna happen if you have like 5 bodyswap brands out
bronze cave
So e.g. Triggering Blood Rage with the Brand will still add a buff to you, Flame Dash will still teleport you, Dark Pact will still sacrifice your life.
you will get a seizure most likely
devout osprey
flame dash brand, amazing
wild arch
Is this the final form of flicker?
native sonnet
As Brand mechanics naturally have great clearing capacity, the supported skills have less area, projectile range and chain range.
how does this work with skills like spark/freezing pulse where the range is dependent on the projectile speed (and duration for spark)
is it just a flat multiplier as in u get less range per proj speed?
silver kettle
it's a max range override
so you generally won't notice on those, but might on freezing pulse
native sonnet
hmm, does this interact with the 150units range from character where spark would self destruct?
silver kettle
tbh I'm not sure exactly how it works with Spark
native sonnet
guess we'll find out in 2 weeks, it seems like it would either be great (does not affect spark range since it just fly everywhere) or poop (spark self destruct super close from u)
zealous monolith
Since dots usually do not stack with themselves, but Wintertide Brand mentions a default attachment limit of 2, does it mean that it does stack with itself?
native sonnet
Wintertide Brand applies Cold Damage over time to the branded enemy and chills them. Each activation, the Brand's damage effect becomes more intense on that enemy.
based on the 2nd part, yes
rotund pine
guys do u think arcanist brand can use channeling spells?
native sonnet
would not expect so based on what we know about triggers and channeling skill
errant warren
lol
native sonnet
hmmm, wonder what kind of enchants would arcanist have, if any
coarse moon
activation frequency and duration?
fierce moon
anyone else notice that ground slam doesnt seem to have the orange cone at the place you hit where it deals more damage
i havent seen it in any of the clips i saw
leads me to wonder if they just changed the visuals or removed the effect
errant warren
Duration boosts will be king for QoL I think
On all brands
Well expect penance I guess
rocky vine
Arcanist brand gonna be detonate dead qol
The cold dot brand is going to be my league starter I think
But it'll be like level 20 something gem
tawny pasture
les see what happen on 2 hander
native sonnet
hmmm, wintertide over penance?
silver kettle
personal preference
native sonnet
i guess u can scale the cold dotm hmm
rocky vine
Penance can get Archmage right?
native sonnet
yeah it should
rocky vine
Since it's a physical conversion spell
I kind of want to do a series of builds meant to party with each other
Trickster, Occultist or Heirophant for Wintertide?
native sonnet
probably occ or trick
cobalt falcon
native sonnet
also from chris in the q&a
both instance of the demo had increased duration in the link
verbal mirage
I so hope I can play the entire league as a gardener
lofty stratus
Since brand recall doesnt increase the duration does this mean we have to keep casting the brand once it goes away
errant warren
Is there a lower limit on cast/activation frequency for brands?
Because this looks a little crazy
native sonnet
no hard cap afaik
errant warren
Then we've got a problem. Because this goes infinite in 6 seconds with Volatile Dead
errant warren
With 12000% attack speed from consuming the 2000 in the previous 4 seconds.
cast speed*
The entire left side is formula derived. The right 3 are the only inputs
W/ formulas
native sonnet
what does the 4 in the 4/D represent?
errant warren
4 seconds
for "recently"
I assumed 0 cast speed and 0 activation frequency elsewhere in build
native sonnet
so on the 2nd row or at time =2s
errant warren
Yeah, the 4 is manually set to 1/2/3 for the first 3 rows
because i couldnt be arsed to formula those
Activation frequency formula from this thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/a6094z/increased_brand_activation_frequency_and/
native sonnet
can u put it on a google sheet?
errant warren
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LWKlUz9iN0F5ynE4IUY3pjKAc2PMdYuu8x9f8yPaXuA/edit?usp=sharing
If theres no lower limit or diminishing returns on Cast Speed for brand activation, then Necromancer will be restricted on cast speed by the server tick rate
native sonnet
u r dividing by activaiton frequency twice?
1 on the base 0.5 and once on the updated frequency
errant warren
Where?
native sonnet
nvm
but the way corpses consumed recently should be a multiplier like that since it builds up, probably better do do a column for corpse consumed for that second and do a running sum on a new column
errant warren
Its still insane
errant warren
Thats because it accelerate so much faster
native sonnet
but it should still hit a plateau
errant warren
Its just that at 2 it hits a break point where it doesnt cross over the rounding im using
on the activation frequency
native sonnet
this is interesting hmmm
errant warren
realistically everything is dead long before it truly goes infinite as well
errant warren
lol
id rather him see it now than have them over-nerf it because it breaks servers a week in
In fact,
@silver kettle Better double check those Necromancer Formulas w/ Cast Speed on Arcanist
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LWKlUz9iN0F5ynE4IUY3pjKAc2PMdYuu8x9f8yPaXuA/edit?usp=sharing
gaunt loom
native sonnet
tried a more realistic scenario on boss with 2 brands and 4 corpses (enchant) and yeah it looks 
errant warren
just 0.02 activation frequency NBD
native sonnet
now to purge all traces of this
oh wait
knew it was too good to be true
gotta double the base freq, since u need to have it linked to both desecrate and VD to alternate trigger
marsh wyvern
what are you guys talking about? VD?
native sonnet
yes, but when u exceed it explode them
marsh wyvern
ah
native sonnet
which is gonna be on the boss, so it still does dmg
silver kettle
ooh I love a good spreadsheet
native sonnet
aight doesnt look as crazy now
errant warren
He saw it! party is over
native sonnet
noooooooooo, nothing here viper
yeah lex, assuming they give us 0.5 base, taking into account of needing both desecrate and VD that becomes 1 sec base freq
errant warren
I didnt include cascade there either
so you can really ramp the numbers up
but yeah theres plenty of assumptions
marsh wyvern
you could prolly just self cast desecrate or unearth or whatever faster
errant warren
If a fix for this appears in the patch notes ill consider my build idea a success without having to ever make it
marsh wyvern
lol
native sonnet
viper owe u a beer if that happens
errant warren
Ill take that bear in Space Cat MTX thanks
beer*
realistically server tick rate is the biggest limiter
native sonnet
moral of the story, some things are better kept to urself xD
errant warren
and i think corpses take some time to actually spawn so that might limit it too
marsh wyvern
its kinda logical though. if he didnt point it out it would be done anyway in secret
wary stratus
I'm pretty sure the idea does work, even for self-cast technically, it's just not practical to do self-cast for longer than a few seconds tops, arcanist brand just opens up the abuse case by automating what humans can't really pull off
errant warren
its also that the multiplier goes crazy because of multiple brands all activating stuff
its like having two people selfcasting for the same thing
marsh wyvern
i gotta say i would like to try it for a bossing build but what boss would need that kind of dps unless we got something stronger than sirus 8 coming
marsh wyvern
true but you gotta get there i guess lol
errant warren
I think itll actually hard cap at 100 per second
based on how corpses appear from desecrate
silver kettle
this is fine
native sonnet
marsh wyvern
lol
native sonnet
how much beer do we need ot buy u to forget this convo viper
wary stratus
nuclear nerf detected
errant warren
i feel so validated
silver kettle
also fucking rip my computer
marsh wyvern
i would like to see what that looks like
silver kettle
literally a reddish-green blob of pixels
errant warren
after release of harvest can we get a video of what could have been?
silver kettle
sure
errant warren
:praise:
native sonnet
cheers
silver kettle
but thank you for the ping
marsh wyvern
thats an amazing find though
silver kettle
and yeah, props
native sonnet
next 1 we get to keep k
errant warren
@lime jasper first one to mention the cast speed scaling that got me thinking
covert venture
what do you guys think about the brand changes?
native sonnet
the not dropping on mob location is sad, recall nerf is ok, lots of potential to explore with arcanist
marsh wyvern
yeah that first part is kinda nasty
unless im misunderstanding it, which is very possible. seems like there is no point in even using brand recall anymore
native sonnet
there is
native sonnet
instant reposition of all ur brands
vs cast time
and 1 time cost (dk if this is equal or how much of % of ur brand yet) as opposed to 2 or 4 casts for max brands
and u still gain the extra attachment range
violet nymph
brands still reattach after killing an enemy
marsh wyvern
which is sorta moot since it drops where you recalled, not where it killed
violet nymph
but if there are no enemies they go away basically
marsh wyvern
and it recalls to you, not your cursor obviously so playing brands is gonna be much more dangerous since you will have to get up in there
native sonnet
that part is the same as before
marsh wyvern
true, but it also dropped where it killed
so you could take out a bunch, you will have to keep running up in there now
or cast it at a pack
unless im missing something. seems like a pretty hard nerf to brands in general
silver kettle
I'm kind of just repeating what I said on Reddit, but the returning to cast location change is barely noticeable. It's just very hard to communicate that because you read it and go "what, that's huge!" but then you play with it and it doesn't do anything...only you folks can't play with it yet
native sonnet
viper flex ~