2┃build-planning

[pliant solar]

You would think that (and I certainly did) that it would be a night and day difference, but having 85% fire res and like 40-50% at the time of testing did nothing while eating up a specific rare firebolt

I even went to check if the fiery fire red ball of fire is actually a fire damage

on poe2db

[celest blaze]

certainly does not match my played experience

any time a map lowered my res I'd get screeeeewed stun-wise.

[pliant solar]

my only explanation is that armour as ele was high enough to make the difference absolutely neglectable

I have not tested without gear so yeah

[celest blaze]

maybe?

[pliant solar]

that fireball was like half of my life bar without the raised shield

so it wasnt that low

so its either armour as ele being bonkers, a bug or resists not doing shit there

well as a fact in practice with high armour as ele it did not matter in the end

even ran a good amount of temples always taking -max res mod from the trialmaster

[celest blaze]

crazy

Interesting 0.3 "fire spell on melee hit" build posted on reddit... https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/1pheg7q/my_fire_spell_on_melee_hit_build_the_04_buffs/

[pliant solar]

you know what, I think its possible that armour as ele while the shield is raised might not scale with the power of the hit like normal armour does

or it is calculated after resists while holding the shield up

that would totally explain it

[celest blaze]

hrm, that I might believe

[pliant solar]

trust me I do feel the max res debuffs if I dont raise the shield

for sure

[celest blaze]

yeah with my essentially 0% ele as armor, the difference is huge in both cases in terms of how stunned I get

[pliant solar]

there is just some weird interaction in converting damage to stun threshold

[celest blaze]

yah could be

[pliant solar]

because if the stat sheet says 90% mitigation it might as well be 90% mitigation of stun threshold

at least it felt like that

maps with "mobs inflict increased stun" or whatever the mod says exactly were total CBT tho

[burnt gust]

lightning xbow deadeye 0.4: stormcaller or plasma blast?

[small slate]

does anyone remember if Catharsis can be put on Spells with CDs? Like does that count as a condition?

[formal geyser]

CD isn't a condition

[small slate]

thanks

[hollow dock]

Everlasting gaze still provides me with ES when Eldritch battery is allocated?

Trying to come up with a mana stacker sorc

[silk juniper]

yes it does

[uncut bay]

I mean it gives you ES, but I don't see the point in using it, very little ES

[celest oxide]

Hateforge buffed or nerfed?

[tulip fog]

if you use the new double corrupt on hateforge it can, if you are lucky, remove the downside on the item, which would make it godly for any build using charges

[faint folio]

looks like hateforge got nerfed in patchnotes update

[tulip fog]

Now has Gain a random charge on reaching maximum Rage, no more than once every 3-6 seconds (previously 1-3 charges). It now also rolls "Gain 3-6 Rage on Hit"

ah, yeah, that would negate most of the thing i just talked about

it would still be OK, but not as godly as if that change wasnt made

[faint folio]

1 charge instead of 1-3 on a cooldown seems pretty terrible to me compared to before

You do get rage on hit now tho I suppose, guess it is just more for rage than charges now

[carmine flicker]

Well, now you can actually use those gloves and have rage most of the time

[tulip fog]

hmm, Iron Ward seems to have been buffed, it would actually be useful now

[fallen wren]

Thoughts on Titan Werewolf shapeshifter? Curious which class will be the best werewolf

[rigid ember]

Hey im wondering how will apocalypse work?

[tulip fog]

vaal guard spectres got gutted

[rigid ember]

does it just rain stuff down all the time?

i was thinking of goin firestorm druid but wiíll it be viable more than lets say lightning or cold?

or should i just focus all ele dmg in general

[tulip fog]

if you havent seen it yet

[rigid ember]

thats not apocalypse

on the video it was every element

i mean the shaman thing

[tulip fog]

oh my bad, i thought that was the one you were referring to

[rigid ember]

possibly that will be what ill be using too mb

actually it will have to be staff innit

anyone knows if + to spell gems will work on the node?

tf gems

[tulip fog]

+spell gems would not work on the skill i linked since its counted as a melee skill

[celest oxide]

Apparently it's gonna be possible to flying Flame Breath the whole map in Wyvern according to the interview today

[rigid ember]

i was thinking + to spells on like staff qeq

[celest oxide]

Imma go crazy if that's true would be so sick

[rigid ember]

im still on the edge on which build lol

[tulip fog]

yeah, but it requires a single or multiple uniques to do so

[rigid ember]

i wanna do shapeshifting but which kind

wolf wasnt shown right

possibly a crit thing

aaaaaaaaaa

deciding is the worst

[tulip fog]

i kinda wanna try wolf cold/freeze build that shatters enemies triggering herald of ice

[rigid ember]

was there a wolf gameplay?

[tulip fog]

but the wywern flame breath ignite build sounds cool too since they are updating how ignite works for that skill and incinerate skill

[carmine flicker]

Can you get glory while skill is ongoing?

[tulip fog]

there was some wolf gameplay in the announcement but it was more focused on mechanics rather than damage

base functionality of the flame breath is very limited but allegedly, according to Jonathan there are uniques that enables you to stay airborne and breathing fire during large parts of a map

[faint folio]

Hateforge even with the changes seems okay for this? Generate rage + get your power charge for empowering it

[tulip fog]

unless you play as druid that gains passive rage regen

[faint folio]

or that rage charm I forget the name of

take a fire hit and generate max rage

then you need to worry about charm charges though I guess

[rigid ember]

not that bad if theres a charm like that

since druid has 100 max spirit in nodes that means it can go herald stacker

hyuge

[faint folio]

Ngamahus Chosen unique charm + fireflower unique amulet seems pretty synergistic for wyverns breath

assuming the amulet counts as a hit idk I have not really ever touched fire stuff

[remote spruce]

This a nerf to hateforge?

[faint folio]

worse for charges but better for rage gen

[primal path]

rip rhoa finally lol

[faint folio]

just gotta see how big a deal rage is with the new druid stuff

[honest grail]

completely gutted and now useless yes

max 1 charge and 3-6s cooldown is diabolical

I probably just don't run nebuloch now

[jagged wave]

I just love how they slap cooldown on things and call it a day. What a genious idea. Only because one build was extremely good with it doesn't mean that you should just nerf it to the ground for completely other builds that were not op..

[heavy tinsel]

The breath stops you from gaining rage tho doesn't it
So you have to stop often unless you get a lot of max rage

Or find some way to reduce the rage cost

[jagged wave]

I bet there is so many skills and combinations that just don't work. Upheaval and surrounded nerf, also that nova projectile nerf. Where do they think we get all this mana

I'm early investing for this season to be very bad outside of the druid.

[heavy tinsel]

The rage drain is actually listed as a cost so you can use efficiency to reduce the rage drain

I think it could be a good clearing skill as long as the windup animation isn't super long

Or if the animation speed itself scales with attack speed

[sleek yacht]

yo anyone got any good hailstorm rounds build ideas?

[heavy tinsel]

There's a unique glove that got buffed which now gives more dmg to immobilised enemies that seems like it'll be good for hailstorm rounds

It also gives more immobilise buildup I think

[sleek yacht]

I feel like mana is gonna be a pain tho

[heavy tinsel]

Yeah Sine Aquo
And I was wrong it just makes it so enemies immobilise at 50% so you freeze twice as fast

[sleek yacht]

oh thats really nice

yeah this is the change: "Enemies Immobilised by you take 20% More Damage" (previously 25% Less Damage).

[heavy tinsel]

Why? The passive reloading doesn't cost mana at all. Hailstorm rounds prob spends a lot less mana than most skills since you just click once per pack

[sleek yacht]

oh i ddint test it out myself but while watching videos of people using it it looked like it continuesly consumes mana so I thought with more bolts itll cost more mana

[heavy tinsel]

It passively generates ice bolts and it costs mana to load it in and then fires them all at once

I haven't played it but looks like you can ignore attack speed and just go all in on reload speed

[sleek yacht]

I see

you think itll work with the mirage archer?

on deadeye

[heavy tinsel]

Which is convenient because most builds used attack speed in their sockets

Idk

Probably not

[latent dawn]

archer is for bow

[sleek yacht]

it says projectiles on it

not bow

and the gem has a proj tag to it

[heavy tinsel]

I would try pathfinder

[sleek yacht]

but yeah maybe its not the optimal ascendency

[heavy tinsel]

With the new travel nodes passive and also being able to pick up freeze/cold nodes near witch

[sleek yacht]

oh yeah

[heavy tinsel]

Plus you can sprint without worrying about being stunned while waiting for a reload

And leash a huge pack and one shot them all

[sleek yacht]

oh thats smart actually

[silver anvil]

Ceremonial Ablution now instead grants Sorcery Ward also protects against Physical and Chaos Damage.
we lost the 50% increased effect + 50% faster recovery for this?

Is this even a buff? It feels like it'll be gone in a heartbeat.

[sleek yacht]

I was thinking about oracle too since there seemed to be some synergy with ailments and theoreticly a ton of point effeciency with the thing that lets you take passives around a notable

but thatll depend on the tree tbj

*tbh

[summer pasture]

It's a buff imo you gave up phys mit for the ward

[silver anvil]

but we didn't give up phys mit, we gained phys mit

[summer pasture]

The first node reduces armor and evasion

[silver anvil]

we just have 33% less ward now, and it recharges slower too, and since most things do phys it means it's going to disappear in a heartbeat

[heavy tinsel]

It's a huge buff for it to apply to physical and chaos

[summer pasture]

To get the ward

[heavy tinsel]

Witchhunter is just a balanced ascendancy you can play basically any skill on

[silver anvil]

yea but everything does phys and then a little bit of ele

so that ward just disappears instantly

when you get hit

[heavy tinsel]

Which is good

That means it's giving value

[silver anvil]

idk im not sold and the arguments yall are using aren't addressing my concerns at all

[heavy tinsel]

If it just stayed there that means it's a waste

[long sun]

with the new Flame Breath coming out, it converts 100% physical to fire, if i have blackflame, what happens? does it go physical -> fire -> chaos?

[light fractal]

it's an attack, blackflame doesnt do anything

[summer pasture]

The ring does, at least for the ignite

[long sun]

dream dead. thanks

[summer pasture]

If you use the ring the ignite will deal chaos damage

[long sun]

Thanks, but i wanted to breath purple fire

[summer pasture]

Oracle might have something in the tree

[celest oxide]

I'm okay with that tbh

I was locked in on Bear but I'll have to see what endgame Wyvern looks like when they post the video

Is 100 Spirit Rhoa actually dead?

[magic pier]

well no
you'll have to sacrifice one of your other persistent skills for it, which honestly feels fair enough with how much faster the rhoa will let you be than someone with no rhoa.

[simple rampart]

Hey guys there is no content creators starting with wyvern shapeahift on release?

[fresh sequoia]

A lot of people haven’t picked builds yet because we don’t have the updated passive tree and gem info

[stuck perch]

Seeing people say Viper Cap completely dead (surrounded). Wouldn't uptime be pretty high at just 1 mob required still?

[brittle anvil]

you will have to be close to the mob tho, so ranged builds might not get it

[stuck perch]

yeah the 50% node puts you at 4.5m which is about a half screen. Was thinking about something bear related at the bottom of the tree and those nodes are just super efficient & powerful

[onyx void]

I didn't play .3 How much did a decent tangletongue go for? Was it super expensive?

[formal geyser]

I had one that was well rolled and it was only a few div

[onyx void]

awesome. thanks!

[wraith palm]

Just an fyi, tangled tongue is significantly different than it was in 0.2

[onyx void]

Yeah, they nerfed the crit chance a bunch, right?

[wraith palm]

Idr all the changes but that’s the big one

[silver urchin]

If I socket a skill with a targeting restriction into a trigger skill like say, Cast on Crit, and it reaches full energy but the restriction is not met, what happens?

Do I sit at full energy until the restriction is met, does it wait until it gains energy and the restriction is met, or does it just lose all of its energy and the skill doesn't trigger?

[formal geyser]

Example?

[silver urchin]

Detonate Dead

(That is in the game isn't it?)

[formal geyser]

Pretty sure it fires anyway. I had detonate dead on cast on crit and it dumped my mana on bosses

[silver urchin]

Okay, so it will be used as much as it can, even if that means just munching mana

[formal geyser]

As far as I can tell, yes

[silver urchin]

I see, thank you

[silver urchin]

In the patch notes for Pathfinder, they're removing Practical Remedies. However, Sustainable Practices was behind it, and there's no notes about that. Is Sustainable Practices becoming a 2-pointer?

[sharp thorn]

Yeah, that's the idea.

[silver urchin]

[errant lark]

The people saying that were ranged characters that used it for the movespeed. But yeah, it’s still a very strong item

[uncut bay]

the 0.3 viper cap was very questionable, you would gain a lot of damage by sacrificing your helmet and tons of passive points, I personally found it counterproductive, in 0.4 viper cap is just completely dead if you care about survivability at all

[wispy needle]

What skill best guarantees shock? If possible?

[hoary bolt]

plasma blast

gathering storm leaves shocked ground too

[midnight bolt]

whats the best ballista totem now for boss dmg?

[unreal girder]

Does this work for mortar cannons?

[hoary bolt]

mortar cannon doesnt have any elemental tags, so no

[unreal girder]

But the grenades it uses do

But if not then not

Guess meta gems behave differently from supports

[sharp thorn]

It's the limit of mortars, not grenades.

Meta gems are skills supported by other skills to change behavior

[unreal girder]

I understand, it just doesnt work like that in poe1 so I asked

[dawn saddle]

It would work the same in poe 1 if the phrasing was similar

[unreal girder]

Well in poe totems are thr same skill, so if its an elemental skill its affected.

Because a support gem is different from a meta gem I guess.

Here you use the gem which uses the grenades, in poe1 you use the skill itself which is supported to be a totem.

I didnt realize that distinction.

A +2 totems to ele skills would def work in poe1

[dawn saddle]

In poe 1, it’s supports that transform into a totem for example, in which case it would still be the attack that is refered to, but in poe 2 it’s totems that are supported by other things

[unreal girder]

But its moot, I understand why it doesnt. Thx for the help

[unreal girder]

Thats what I said, thanks 🙂

Is it possible to make skills drop infusions that dont natutally do that?

[dawn saddle]

I don't think so. I would personally find a way to just trigger skills that generate some

[silver urchin]

Didn't find any way on poedb, jsut ways to generate more/others when you do

[dawn saddle]

Wait actually there's siphon elements, but idk if it’s reliable enough

[unreal girder]

Siphon elements doesnt work unless the target is unaffected by the ailment 🙁

Which sucks

[silver urchin]

Hmm

Good combo?

[unreal girder]

Thinking of how to build my firestorm limit stacker and if infusions are even worth the hassle

[silver urchin]

I've heard "no" but they LOOK cool as fuck

[unreal girder]

Yeah probably not, its only gonna be part of my dmg anyway and thunderstorm has no infusion scaling

Would be cool if tornado got an elemental tag

[dawn saddle]

Could find a way to consume ailments, but the issue is the 1 second immunity to ailments after consuming

[unreal girder]

Ill probably use lightning conduit but that only consumes shock

Yeah, it doesnt look great

[unreal girder]

Guess Ill just go the double shock route then

Wet from thunderstorm should still make that goof

Good

[dawn saddle]

Elemental discharge support can consume any elemental ailment on hit with a 1 second cooldown, which should match the 1 second immunity to ailments after consuming one.
You can add to that adonia's ego unique wand that has a spell consuming power charges to make all elemental damage shock, ignite and freeze, as well as granting massive amounts of damage (17% more per power charge with 20% quality)

The downside with the wand is -10% to all resistances per power charge, and you need to generate some power charges (1 every 5 second for 100% uptime)

[unreal girder]

Making all elements shock ignite freeze is doable just with painter's servant right?

[silver urchin]

The gloves? yeah

[unreal girder]

That was kinda my plan

As Im tri ele anyway

[dawn saddle]

Only a third of your damage would count for each

[unreal girder]

I know

[dawn saddle]

You would proc ailments way less often

[unreal girder]

I used it before on artillery ballistas and they shocked and froze just fine

And shock especially will be done by any element anyway

If Im stormweaver

[dawn saddle]

The wand should still be a good addition to consider. The gloves slot is pretty important depending on the build, and if you invest a bit into power charges, it’s a +100% more damage buff

[unreal girder]

Assuming I can generate them easily

But yes, Ill def consider it

[dawn saddle]

1 every 5 seconds is fine

Need even less if you use increased duration

[unreal girder]

Im def gonna go hard om duration as Im stacking duration spells

So yeah, good idea

Thx

[pliant solar]

I need ideas for a better shotgun pellets spread. Something like chain (or exactly chain), but without losing damage on hits.

My best bet right now is terrain ricochet, but its to say the least underwhelming

and very conditional

and nova proj support doesnt really work well with shotgun like skills

[silver urchin]

When I played crossbows in 0.2, the answer during the campaign with Galvanic Shards was "shoot again" ngl

[pliant solar]

what does that mean

just aspd issue?

also how does chain even interact with pierce

[silver urchin]

Or damage issue.
If you can't kill everything in the pack with one hit, just shoot twice

As far as chain and pierce, I think that it chains first? I know there's an order of operations but I don't remember which happens first

[pliant solar]

not really a damage issue honestly, just cant be arsed to gem switch

its for ailment prolif

[pliant solar]

ok so chain only chains if it can't pierce

so even chain is not an option now

some maps do feel good with ricochet

but its so volatile

if only ground would be considered a terran to ricochet from

[unreal merlin]

is it still worth it to build around multiple arsonists for infernalist?

[peak pewter]

Is it possible that a glacial lance build exists and is viable?

[normal prawn]

Looks like it

[river summit]

hateforge buff lmao they are gonna be so expensive

[normal prawn]

A reddit post was expecting hateforge to be a vaal unique for the temple. Does its lore properly fit vaal? Didnt seem lile it to me

[peak pewter]

Oh nice, although isn't that based on the deadeye frenzy interaction that got changed?

[bright pine]

buff?

[sharp thorn]

It looks like vaal and the text is about Vaal doing something to Karui. So it's a possible candidate.

[bright pine]

ig it can be considered a buff depending how you see it but I think its mostly a nerf

[river summit]

oh i didnt see what they changed negatively?

i only saw upsides

[bright pine]

gains 1 random charge instead of 3

on reaching max rage

[river summit]

ohhhh

nevermind then lmao

ig

maybe a buff for druid who spends rage on skill use

cuz with enough rage gain you basically go down up down up immediately

[keen remnant]

Does anyone know 100% whether thorns damage can apply bleed or poison if I have bleed chance on hit from the tree? Thorns damage technically is a hit, but all my googling research leads me to believe that thorns damage does not apply bleed or poison, and unsure if that would be a bug that was fixed or intentional. Planning on playing thorns bear with bleed + poison on thorns, so it's crucial for me to know if it's even a viable option. Thought someone here might've tried it before so decided to ask.

[summer pasture]

It works but you need bleed or poison chance on HIT not attack hit

[silver urchin]

How much crit do builds end up getting with maces? On the new mace with 8% base crit, I'm barely scratching 45%, which my POE1 brain is telling me is horrible.

I just can't really see where to get much more

[pliant solar]

45% is a lot in poe2

you're not supposed to 100% crit in this game

and I really mean it, 45 is A LOT

[silver urchin]

Okay, so getting to that point is actually the Good Enough mark? That's great

[merry osprey]

Does anyone know if reduced flask charges used affects ambrosia/lethal draw

[worldly summit]

It shouldn't

I think only max amount of charges, or resource recovered is used by the gems, the reduced flask charges used only works when you press the flask yourself

[merry osprey]

Yea it’s just it does actually work in poe1

I’m guessing this is a ‘I should just test this’ moment

[tepid pumice]

Has anyone cooked something around rolling magma dragon? I was thinking of trying it with deadeye

[quartz pewter]

The skill itself looks clunky.... not sure if I would use rolling magma endgame

[tepid pumice]

Yeah it looks cool to me but im not seeing anyone talk about it.. maybe it sucks and people have already made up their minds

[graceful wraith]

would each bouncing ball trigger a minivolcano to explode again? I was thinking Shaman'

's rage build-up, cast a high-damage volcano, then have it explode a lot with multishot bouncing balls.

But I'm not even an amateur chef, I burn water when I cook.

[silver urchin]

In the footage, it looked like it

Each bounce made the volcano spit out more

[drifting lance]

do low budged pathfinders work well?

or are they high investment builds only

[woven depot]

Yea you can make effective low budget pf builds

[fossil flint]

Hateforge was super nerfed it’s only 1 charge instead of 3 and limited to every 3 secs at best roll

I’m interested in the rolling magma build but not sure if volcanoes or molten fissures from forge hammer are better to trigger

[fossil flint]

Storm weaver is my idea for the increased volcano limit

[honest grail]

I need to PoB what shield wall damage is like with just a rare mace and no crit

as much as I could just do the several seconds wombo combo I did last league to oneshot stuff with shield wall and nebuloch I reeeeeallly don't want to

especially since I want to try ahn's citadel for clear instead of running around with resonating shield

[lone plank]

invoker or witchunter for wolf talisman

[pearl lynx]

Anyone here hyped by the EQ+overabundance+new Titan notable?

if it works like spell cascade it will be amazing

[quartz pewter]

I just want to water plants bro

[restive ocean]

What ascenedency will be best for mortars this time? tactician or warbringer

[marsh oyster]

Would one rage on hit feel ok if I were spending all of it every 10-15 seconds

Or should I find some other way to generate rage

[quartz pewter]

If you're looking at Druid the Shaman ascendancy has built-in rage generation.

[silent matrix]

anybody happen to know how many times storm lance explosion hits the same target? I've been playing with it and it seems it hits way more often than just once

the explosion says it fires 16 bolts and has dmg eff of 405% at gem lvl 20, so I suppose each bolt deals that amount of dmg? and that multiple bolts can hit the same target?

is there a way to test this like self poison in poe1?

[slender furnace]

All depends on how quick you need to fill rage. Bear maul iirc has 5 rage on hit. Im planning to build rage through bear ability, plus war cry, plus rage gained when hit

[silent matrix]

nvm I tested it, storm lance explosion does only hit once, even with chain and/or ricochet.

or wait, can it chain off of lightning orb or such skills?

[honest grail]

I want to try building around iron ward

most likely on Smith

[summer pasture]

@honest grail sent you an invite to a discord that would be a place for help with iron ward

[honest grail]

is it the thorns guy's?

[cedar aspen]

Do you think it’s going to be that strong now since the change?

[silent matrix]

yo wtf, poe2db is down?

[robust ember]

Are the new skill gems listed anywhere?

[graceful wraith]

https://pathofexile2.com/druids

mousing over will show you some of the new ones. There's screencaps for a few more, you'd have as easy time as I finding those.

[hard sinew]

Has anyone leveled with xbows as a warrior

[pliant solar]

Any point of extra cast speed for triggered spells?

does it do anything for them

[carmine flicker]

no, only bast cast time matters

[pliant solar]

ye it explicitly says this

[keen nexus]

anyone tried tactician with siege cascade pinning and bleeding enemies ?

[pliant solar]

I did and it was a great clearing build and cbt for bosses

they did buff it a bit tho

[worldly bluff]

when u go druid will u be playing a one creature or multiple ones

[hushed pulsar]

Do we usually get new skill data before the patch? Trying to know what paths I can take with wyvern.

[pliant solar]

its not something you specifically morph into, they are skills so you can use whatever you want

[graceful wraith]

my general experience is "you get the new skill data when you can pry it from the new client download" from PoE 2.

[carmine flicker]

form is more or less cosmetic at this point, you use skill = you change form to match it, not the opposite, so feel free to use them as you want, just your "look" will change accordingly

[still dirge]

they designed it for talisman on one bar and spellcasting setup on the bother bar, but I have seen people say they're going to try running two talismans and just alternate between two shapeshifts

[faint folio]

You don't need 2 talismans to use 2 different sets of shapeshifting skills, just the basic attacks

[keen nexus]

can u help with the build pls under build help I made a post for tactician I need to once see if my tree is in right direction or not

[restive ocean]

best mortar cannon asc in .4?

warbringer or tactician? or something else

Also best spell totem ascenednecy? in your opnion

[old ermine]

Anyone have good build ideas for the wolf shape shift? I was thinking that Invoker or titan might be good!

[summer pasture]

Are forms locked to specific talisman bases?

Nm i figured it out

[silver urchin]

We've seen a couple talismans that offer two forms. I would assume there's three bases, one for each pairing. You can check this to see how many talisman bases were posted in the item filter info post

[silver urchin]

Some folks have been murmuring about a kind of summoner as Tactician, I think it could have merit

[carmine flicker]

best "minion" ascendancy would be smith probably?
30% spirit is damn huge

[silver urchin]

Tactician gets "50% less reservation" for persistent buffs

[summer pasture]

Eh you give up flat spirit on the armor though so youd need a lot of flat sources to equal the lose

[carmine flicker]

most minions aren't persistent buffs

[carmine flicker]

not a lot

[silver urchin]

Right, the wwolves wouldnt be, but the banners and other things would be

[summer pasture]

On top of that, what else helps your wolves in smith? If you want tank sure go smith but tact or titan would be better

[carmine flicker]

you have like 400 spirit from scepter/prism guardian(you probablu go life as smith)

[carmine flicker]

well, muster and 1 skelly of every type

for like... 70+% more damage support

[summer pasture]

I meant ascendency wise

[carmine flicker]

extra minion for muster at least I guess

[silver urchin]

The resistance passives would make your gearing much more flexible

[carmine flicker]

and resistance to help gearing, ye

[summer pasture]

Like I said for better defensive stuff go smith but titan would be better imo for damage

[carmine flicker]

idk how wolves even work tho
do they reserve spirit or spawn as temporary minions or..?

[silver urchin]

I believe they're temporary companion minions that are spawned by consuming that one mark, unless there's another gem that makes them. That's what it looked like in the footage

[carmine flicker]

then spirit is useless for sure

but kitava will still be best "minion"(in terms of traditional skellies) class imo

except bad tree start, a bit of wasted travel nodes for sure

[summer pasture]

There is supposedly a gem that help with summoning wolves so you can still get them for bosses

[silver urchin]

They showed one method in the stream, that cross-slash thing

[summer pasture]

Yes

But could have sworn they said there was another gem

[carmine flicker]

we will see in a few days..

[gaunt ether]

do spells "hit"?

Death from Afar

Projectiles have 25% increased Critical Hit Chance against Enemies further than 6m
Projectiles deal 25% increased Damage with Hits against Enemies further than 6m

for example this with spark

[west wharf]

yea

unless it's a spell that just applies a dot

hit is hit and dot is dot; they're irrespective of spell vs attack

[gaunt ether]

if a hit crits, would the poison applied still be increased

im looking to do poison spark with pathfinder next league

[west wharf]

yes

[gaunt ether]

trying to do a "homebrew" setup for the first time

[west wharf]

the size of the hit determines the size of the dot it applies

very typical for poison builds to scale some crit if possible

you often balance for a bit heavier crit dmg than crit rate

[midnight obsidian]

https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Ailment#Critical_strikes

[west wharf]

since you don't need consistent highest dps from your hits

you just want to luck out on big individual hit for big poison

[brittle anvil]

das poe 1? poe 2 doesn't get the 50% I think

[midnight obsidian]

yep

you use the mask thing if you're building for crit and poison dmg to skip having to grab chance

[gaunt ether]

so am i pigeonholed into using plaugefinger/ osin if im wanting to scale poison off a spell?

its not off a attack, but seems im reading that poison is chaos, which scales with physical increases or projectile modifiers ?

[wraith palm]

totally depends on the skill you use, but regardless you wanna get more poison chance than just plague fingers

[brittle anvil]

you can scale with increases to hit damage, like spell damage, proj, elementals, and poison magnitude

and yeah you need poison chance

[wraith palm]

atskas sight is the helmet asdas is describing above, i used in 0.2 with great success

[gaunt ether]

oh that does looks nifty, unless im doing it wrong plauge finger + poison 2 is already pretty high chance to poison

[wraith palm]

crit scales really well, and crit scaling one big dot is way better than trying to do a lot of small dots with the limit it has

small dots is fine for clear if you make them spread somehow or figure otu clear in a different way but generally you want a big boom for single target poison (all dots, really)

infernalist + plague fingers does very very well to use that interaciton lol

[novel ridge]

Anyone know how Mind of the Council works with channeling skills? I'm thinking about a mana stacking flamebreath build for the new patch

[brittle anvil]

it should work with any attacks

[honest hawk]

can you use two different lineage supports on the same skill?

[formal silo]

Does anyone know if permafrost bolts increased the shotgun radius with area of effect?

[cedar aspen]

What’s the ideal support gem setup for Temper Weapon? Want to give it another try, but forget what the best supports to use for it are

[sacred mountain]

i wanna do a very "cast on" spammy build, think comet apocalypse, will tecrod with its 75% or so nerf still be bis to generate the resources needed to spam many comets a second?

those spell totems look fun too

[silver anvil]

how much total evasion and or armor can I reasonably get?

(just looking at witchhunter now and wondering how much i can expect out of sorcery ward)

[celest oxide]

Will I go for Rampage/Calamity Bear or Flame Breath Wyvern impossible to decide

[uncut bay]

I really doubt, without life stacking and rathpit

[silver urchin]

Sorcery Ward is a solid defense. The hardest part of it is tthe delay before it comes back

[uncut bay]

check for the aoe skill tag ingame

[silver anvil]

okay, but that's not what i asked at all?

[silver urchin]

Aight you're welcome then

I can't give you an exact value

Good luck

[uncut bay]

evasion on deadeye I was able to get around 40k on a budget build

[silver anvil]

can i assume 80k, if i actually put in effort to get it up high?

[formal silo]

Yeah it’s there but a bit confused so area of effect has no play on area of attacks right? So an area of attack would just be like mace strike while an area of effect would be a grenade? So how does both work with projectiles?

[uncut bay]

no idea about armour, maybe its best to ignore it

if you have 40k evasion you will have very little armour

[silver anvil]

yea was looking at evasion mostly

watching a conner vid and he's talking about having 60k evasion without an ev chest piece

so i'm assuming 80k is possible with one

idk though

[uncut bay]

amazon means evasion x1,5

[silver anvil]

right

[silver urchin]

Isnt it the other way around

[uncut bay]

without amazon his 60k would be 40k for you

[silver anvil]

then i suppose i'll just assume 50k and be happy when it's higher then

[uncut bay]

roughly speaking

[silver urchin]

Evasion from equipped Body Armour is halved, not 150%

[uncut bay]

50k is possible sure

[uncut bay]

oh I was comparing setups with at least 1k base ES

so if the ES is the same then amazon will have waaay more evasion

[silver anvil]

50k evasion * 65% effectiveness of EV * 35% sorcery ward mod = ~ 11375 ward

which does look very respectable, except we can't leech it

recharge in 6.1s? Is it easy to get +1 gem level to it for 6s cooldown, then it's an easier estimation to make?

Any other way to "reduce" the cooldown of it?

seems like we could reduce ghost dance's cooldown back in 0.3 or something, same techs applicable here?

[uncut bay]

sorry, does the sorcery ward begin recharging after 6 seconds?

[silver anvil]

when it stops taking damage

or when it's fully depleted

like ES recovery, in a way

is it visible btw? Like can I know just how low it's getting without having to glance at wherever the buff icon is on my screen (like how ES is just overlain on the life globe)?

[uncut bay]

no idea

[silver anvil]

aight thats fine

based on the wording i don't think the 6s can be reduced in anyway?

[uncut bay]

but 6 seconds delay in this case seems totally fine, you will be hella tanky

[silver anvil]

just says Barrier recharges after (6.1–8) seconds

[uncut bay]

no, how?

its not a regular mod

[silver urchin]

There's a buff icon that tracks its refresh and value

[silver anvil]

yea i was saying that, doesn't look like it can be reduced with support

[uncut bay]

just increase the skill level

[silver anvil]

which sort of kinda solves life leech? Since that's more or less my hp pool now

[uncut bay]

life leech not needed

[silver anvil]

tempting, tempting

even 65% of 50k evasion is still a crap ton of it

[silver urchin]

and if you're evasion, its less likely to be interrupted

[silver anvil]

but i guess needing 4 ascendency points for that is also very rough

probably still better to just go amazon and stack EV on stalking panther

[uncut bay]

40k evasion x 0.3 x 1,5 is 18k shield, thats insane

starts recharging after 3 seconds

[silver anvil]

where is the 1.5 from

actually what is that even calculating

[uncut bay]

sorcery ward, just the next ascendancy passives

2 sorcery ward passives

[silver urchin]

the 50% effect passive is getting removed

[uncut bay]

ohhh okay

[silver urchin]

the math would be
50k * 0.65 (35% less mod) * 0.3 (max barrier value)
=9750

[silver anvil]

do a 0.35 multiplier because quality gives another 5%

[silver urchin]

How are you giving it quality

[silver anvil]

can't you just quality the skill?

[silver urchin]

No, it's not a gem

[silver anvil]

you can still quality it, no?

[silver urchin]

There's only like 2-3 ways that I know of

One passive that gives +5% somewhere, and +10% from Gemling

Oh a support gem does some too

Can you support it with stuff?

[silver anvil]

oh i thought it just functioned like a normal gem that you can't remove

[silver urchin]

Nope, gems give skills but not all skills have gems, so you can't use GCPs on them

[silver anvil]

i mean, it says Grants Skill, which means it should show up on your skill page with the empty sockets showing up as you level up

[uncut bay]

where does the 0.3 come from?

[silver urchin]

max barrier value

[silver urchin]

Yeah I assume it might have sockets but I'm not 100% sure

[uncut bay]

fuck I forgot about the less evasion part

[silver anvil]

okay i pulled up a vid on youtube

can't be qualitied

but has sockets

[silver urchin]

Sockets good

wonder how expensive the quality support is, probably very

Dialla's something

[silver anvil]

they're making lineage supports rarer so yea

i remember before i stopped last league ~2weeks in

it was 20d+

so i guess now it might near a mirror?

idk lul

anyway

[uncut bay]

so if I have 40k evasion with sorcery ward I have 26k evasion, yeah idk about that

[silver anvil]

50k ev = 9750 ward
which i guess is still good but seeing a number below 10k is ehh
sounds better to do ES for similar max hits, have leech to go with it, and not have to waste 4 ascendency points

[uncut bay]

will the recharge delay be 6s?

[silver anvil]

though i guess it does come with 32.5k evasion so

maybe

the ehp is worth it

hm

[uncut bay]

amazon is just a safe bet even with the nerfed ghost dance

[silver anvil]

yea

but conner just released his vid on it and put it back onto the limelight

so now i'm looking at other places once again

[uncut bay]

amazon is still very tanky

and decent damage

[silver anvil]

that's true but that's also beside my point

[minor tree]

I'm thinking, scolds bridle (take phys damage when casting spells) + shaman avatar of evolution (phys to elemental, reduce elemental DMG when taking elemental DMG) sounds nasty

[silver anvil]

and you can slap on the charm that gives you charges to go with that too, yea

[silver urchin]

That was the consensus yes, but that image was outdated so we don't know if it wil be the same

[minor tree]

Oh I discovered warm water then lol

[silver urchin]

They already had time to nerf Hateforge for example

[minor tree]

Fingers crossed

[celest blaze]

After experimenting quite a bit, I'm going to go Gemling for a Shield Wall / Resonating Cry build. Very curious about the new "Echoing Cry" support.

[silver anvil]

anyway i was also looking into this, anyone knows if the timer is reducable? If we can get the buffed 5s cd to maybe like, idk, 2-3s? I could see good potential with it

[silver urchin]

I don't think so

It's not a skill or buff, jsut a timer

With some charge duration you could probably have permanent uptime on 1-2 of them for spending, but only if you're not spending each too often. Which would mean... you take it when you don't need many charges... 🤔

[celest blaze]

I was the one person using Thaumaturgic Dynamism before the buff (for shield wall, to power Nebuloch on bosses).

It's really, really good if you can get it to reliably generate the type of charge you want, and it's next to other great Gemling stuff too. In my testing on Standard, I'm picking up the "most numerous gem" node to the right, then getting Dynamism and the +2 Strengh Gem Levels node that's right there also. Feels great.

Having 3 endurance charges sitting in my hideout is pretty great lol

[silver anvil]

problem is that the gemling offensive nodes are frankly, absolute dogshit

like what even is +2 to gem level lol

[celest blaze]

+skills is rather powerful as it turns out 😛

[silver anvil]

so idk, was wondering that the Thaumaturgic Dynamism buff was significant enough for it to be considered for some offensive purpose

but yea its still really slow if i want to reliably use a charge spender

[celest blaze]

right, yeah, it won't be your go-to charge generator for something that's being spent constantly, though 5s is pretty fast.

What it is great for, though, is ensuring that you always have a specific charge available when you want it.

In my case, all my gems are Str anyway, and I just want to make sure that i have max End charges available when it's time to Shield Wall nuke a boss.

after its 20 hour "I'm a boss activating" animation

[silver anvil]

No, not +2. iirc that was 10% on most things? Also stacks additively with other (common) sources of gem levels, like +3 ammy and +6 weapons. It's numerically dogshit next to other damage ascendency nodes that grant closer to 20% more.

And that's not even counting the fact that it has a unstated downside of increasing mana costs too

[celest blaze]

So, check out prices of Prism of Beliefs for +2 gem level for illustrations as to how powerful that is. Having that added to literally all of my skills (and +16 quality) is really excellent for my particular build.

[silver anvil]

That's only because it's still an additional source of more damage. The opportunity cost is different.

[celest blaze]

The Gemling node I'm picking up gives 30% less mana cost also (in addition to making me crit immune and giving 40% less move speed penalty while using skills)

having a free Efficiency support socketed in everything is awesome. (You just need to play a silly game to make sure you have the same amount of each skill requirement support gem)

[silver anvil]

Yes yes we know, I played gemling last league too

[celest blaze]

in terms of mana cost it's relevant, though. It has a built-in offset.

Sure, opportunity cost is a thing. But +2 gem skill level can be quite strong.

[silver anvil]

Yea what a great ascendency, giving you a downside but you can solve it by spending another 2 points, wow how generous of them. Truly.

[celest blaze]

shrug I'm running it now and it feels great with Shield Wall. I have a level 37 shield wall right now and mana cost isn't an issue. If I could afford a +3 Prism, it would be 38.

[silver anvil]

Man, you don't seem to understand what opportunity cost is, so yea. Have fun ig. Peace✌️

[celest blaze]

I'm not arguing with you about that heh

What is an ascendancy that you feel has non-dogshit offfensive capabilities?

[uncut bay]

gemling might be the weakest ascendancy in 0.4

just so you know

[celest blaze]

sweet

I looked into doing Kitava instead hard for Shield Wall, but the reliable Endurance charge generation for bossing is too good for my particular build

[uncut bay]

terrible offence, terrible defence

you do you

[celest blaze]

will do!

Like I've said, I've been testing it in Standard and it feels quite strong. I'm always happier when I'm off-meta-ish (though Shield Wall obviously not a hipster skill right now)

[uncut bay]

for shield wall maybe lich, infernalist, amazon, titan? for example

[celest blaze]

If i wasn't so ass at Perfect Striking, it might be less of an issue.

Hrm, why lich or infernalist? Kitava is very strong for it also. Titan definitely as well and I can see amazon.

[hidden meteor]

anyone planning on starting a bosser w/ decent clear?

[silver urchin]

Slammers

[urban nova]

Anyone planned out PF Dex stacker in pob? If yes gotta ask which main skill would you use for it, I managed to get 800 Dex, 7.1 APS on Twister skill in POB but it only has 5k hit damage (w/o supports tho), probably very good for mapping because its best Clear skill imo, but bosses are meh

Also 80% movement speed

[modern socket]

Leaning into Explosive Shot Tactician for 0.4.0
Do we still use Nova Projectiles now that it lost the additional projectiles tag?

Never really liked Nova Projectiles anyway so I wouldn't be sad if we don't

[uncut bay]

idk how mace builds work, but lich and infernalist have a lot of damage for attacking builds, infernalist only if your crit chance is high

[dusky stirrup]

Kinda stupid question, but

As I understand "gain as" happens after conversions, so, if I have "gain phys as extra elemental" I want to use skill with low base conversion, but if I have just "gain extra damage" base conversions doesn't matter?

[uncut bay]

I only know gain % of damage as extra damage, for this mod your type of damage is irrelevant

[silver urchin]

I heard that conversion and gain as extra happen simultaneously

[dusky stirrup]

There's some passive nodes like Burning strike "gain 12% of physical damage as extra fire damage"

[uncut bay]

ah okay

[celest blaze]

Part of the main issue here is that the witch / sorc start is in the WAY wrong side of the tree for this. There are some very key passive tree nodes that really enable the build to work, and points are tight.

Pathfinder, Titan, and Kitava would all be strong. Amazon isn't ideal here since you can't get accuracy on shields... it's more a shield / warcry build that I'm running. My mace is essentially a stat stick that I use for one or two mobility skills.

[celest blaze]

unfortunately Lycosidae is entirely unusable for a shield build, you need as absurdly high armor as possible.

[woven depot]

ah i didnt read that he asked about shield wall higher up, the message you had responded to was just about "mace builds"

carry on good sir🫡

[unreal rampart]

Guys any idea if Blackflame Incinerate can apply poison with a chance to poison support gem?

[silver urchin]

yep

[neon hinge]

Hi. I have lots of experience in PoE1 but am new to PoE2. I am looking to be able to reach something like level 90 and be able to farm some basic strategies in endgame.

I would like to try to play the Elemental Storm from the Tempest Caller Notable. Is this a viable build archetype I can explore as I play? I am currently thinking of using spark and avatar of fire to force the storm to deal fire as this is listed as its highest damage. I would also try to gain skill effect duration on the passive tree.

Can anyone offer some thoughts to this general idea? I have no knowledge of what kind of defensive and offensive values are "required" for endgame. but here is my first draft of a PoB: https://pobb.in/uBmSMCd9AhYj

[unreal girder]

How do infusions interact with spell echo/unleash?

[unreal girder]

Thx

[normal prawn]

One of the main sticklers to raising the limit on firestorm with stornqeaver.

Better off getting 3 infusions then just cadting it once

[pliant solar]

you can have this for reference https://pobb.in/hmPeRTBuC7bc

ascendancy churches seem to be giga dead

[unreal girder]

Well, Im hoping thunderstorm has good numbers and mainly wish to use that

But Im still on the fence between WH and Stormweaver. If I hadnt already played Galv/shockburst I would do WH 100%

[twin sierra]

warbinger into kitava into titan

overall strongest way to start shield wall

[tranquil raptor]

hey any recommendations for builds with higher than average movement? previous season I used rhoa mount and it felt amazing, but I like to try something different for 0.4. Pathfinder seems to have nice movement nodes but also would love to avoid playing as ranger this season.

[gentle veldt]

What about the rage nodes of the asc of shaman? Any build regarding rage that its not bear? Bear and wyvern seems very slow. Maybe werewolf might be good

[gentle veldt]

me too, I wonder if we can use for damage or its mostly to buff/debuff other spells

[unreal girder]

My plan is max limit thunderstorm+lightning conduit

[gentle veldt]

I want to play druid, maybe shaman, so I might go for rage build, i dont know. I think bear and wyvern seems a bit too slow. And plant also seems a bit slow and its phys damage, I want to make something cold or lightning. Not sure if I do werewolf or something with thunderstorm

[unreal girder]

Werewolf WH with explody solving its seemingly mediocre clear should be fun unless the gameplay at endgame is too comboy

[high rivet]

what happens if you get over 100% reduced curse effect, does it just go to 0, or does the curse buff you

[unreal girder]

It goes to 0

[high rivet]

ok

[celest blaze]

yeah, seems about right generally.

I'm a big fan of the gemling generally, though, and he does a very good job at it. In Abyssal league I cleared all content with him (including highest tier simulacrum and Uber Arbiter). My actual gear itself is still pretty crap, but I did have Rakiata's, the Bloodletting lineage gems. and a +2 Prism of Belief for Shield Wall.

running around with 2.7K life and 4K amor as a melee seems dumb, but damn if it doesn't work

[uncut bay]

this is actually a clever idea on paper, you would need maligaros of course to use that pinpoint critical and have the most amount of elemental storms, I would pair it with the indigon helmet for some extra damage, stormweaver has good mana regen, then I would scale crit chance as high as possible

elemental storm doesn't do a lot of damage compared to spark, so spark would be the main skill. add cold infusions to it too if you want

[uncut bay]

we have the movement passives on the dexterity side of the tree, rhoa and pathfinder, also some movement passives on the merc side, less than on the dexterity side

outside of that you can attempt a lightning warp build or a flicker build

[slender furnace]

Nothing will be faster than PF sprint

[uncut bay]

but basically the only real way to be fast is to take the passives on the dexterity side of the tree

[tranquil raptor]

Thank you, was thinking about hollow palm monk as it seems to teleport a bit when moving around, but from what I gathered it got nerfed and might now be as cool as in previous patch videos

[slender furnace]

You could try monk werewolf

Has dashes plus sprint boost

[tranquil raptor]

I'm way too casual to think of a build myself so I would just like to go with some detailed existing one and will probably have to wait a bit for normal werewolf and other druid like builds to come out

[slender furnace]

Then if you want ms youre playing pathfinder probably

[keen nexus]

okay nice , thank you

[uncut bay]

my advice: if you can't stand playing bows and spears just don't expect a lot of movement speed

movement speed is part of the identity for the dexterity based builds

[tranquil raptor]

I just played with bows 0.1 and 0.3 season so would like to switch things abit at least every other season haha

[uncut bay]

so crossbows maybe fast too

[tranquil raptor]

as it seems all bow builds are quickest with really good dmg

[uncut bay]

but not nearly as fast as bows and spears ofc coz rhoa

play spears then, equally fast

explosive spear has been buffed a lot

[tranquil raptor]

looking at what builds people talking about, pf seems to be same as deadeye was previous season, every second player will be going for it

maybe newly released druid will rival that but still

[uncut bay]

PF is good at running fast, bad at shooting while running fast

basically only fast during sprint

[tranquil raptor]

okay thank you, still have two days to think of something I would like to do, just looking back at previous seasons I always had more fun running certified strong builds than running something I thought was fun because even if it looks fun it might have misserable experience for first 20 or sohours

[slender furnace]

You can't want to always play meta but then not want to play the same builds. If you always want meta, youre gonna be playing same builds often as either they dont nerf previous league meta or we dont have all the info to be able to determine a new meta at league start, and thus streamers can't make guides for bew shit, so they just update their old guides or make guides for existing skills.

And as someone said above, if ms is your main focus, youre always gonna be playing some ranger build as thats their shtick

[tranquil raptor]

There are probably more ways to move faster than have high ms? Like good movement abilities?

or am I missing something

I have played poe2 for all 3 seasons and have 200~ hours but I am as casual as it gets so sorry for stupid questions

[slender furnace]

Movement skills dont exist in this game like poe 1

[twin sierra]

yeah I mean shield wall anything basically works

shield wall invoker for instance is also strong if u want even more defense than what warrior can offer

[tranquil raptor]

okay thank you, guess I'll just forget about ms this season. Just it can be hard to go back from rhoa to slow ass running again

[normal prawn]

Except blink lol

Although didnt it get nerfed. Havnt been around since 0.1

[tranquil raptor]

I still thinking heavily about open palm dude as it seems like he's just dancing from enemy to enemy which seems way faster than simple running, but maybe it just how it looks like and in reality isn't that much faster

[normal prawn]

I know in 0.1 monk was viewed as very mobile and fluid

[hexed vessel]

hey does anyone know if aftershocking fissures triggers cast spell on hit?

[tranquil raptor]

ye blinking in 0.1 was amazing, but at least I havent seen anything like that in 0.2 and 0.3, mybe some super high end builds

[normal prawn]

In 0.2 and 0.3 i stopped mid a3. So i didnt really get to understand the situations

[twin sierra]

monk basically sacrifices some of ranger’s speed to get either more tankiness or damage, or both

starting tree is good and very close to ranger so it can play the same kinda builds basically

[tranquil raptor]

I feel like poe2 is feeling wrong because only ranger gets movement speed while other classes gets none, if none of the classes had it it would be alright and if all classes had it it would be alright too

now my mind just drifts to ranger every time because there are no other easy choices for that

[twin sierra]

difference is definitely smaller this patch id say

[normal prawn]

Im hunouring PF just for the sprint

[twin sierra]

still there tho for sure

[tranquil raptor]

i feel like open palm monk would suit me best because it uses no weapon and I usually struggle gearing my character so it's a one huge headache i could just dismiss

[twin sierra]

but like u cant just go deadeye rhoa anymore and have giga speed super early

u can but its way worse than last patch

[tranquil raptor]

like my concoction pf in 0.1, i got one cheap bow early and it was all I needed till end of maps

i loved that build so much

[slender furnace]

The difference will be more this patch as pf sprint has insane ms

[twin sierra]

i dont think so

i mean pf is insane for sure

[slender furnace]

Whats their to think about? We know the sprint ms pf has

[twin sierra]

but ur not gonna have that kinda omega speed and damage to just constantly sprint early on

[slender furnace]

?

You dont get heavy stunned on pf. You can sprint wherever

[twin sierra]

u still have to attack

[slender furnace]

So does every build in the game

[twin sierra]

later on u can just click once and entire screen dies but its not gonna be like that early

[slender furnace]

Says who?

[twin sierra]

anyone who knows the game lmao

im not saying like week1

i mean like entering maps and day1

[slender furnace]

Oh really? Because I played la last league and was screen clearing in white maps.

[twin sierra]

u are NOT full screen clearing with a single click then

[slender furnace]

Idk bud, l2p i guess

[normal prawn]

I never full screen clear. I seem to like small aoe skills instead of proj lol

[twin sierra]

yeah u are on massive cope xd

[slender furnace]

Whatever you say

[twin sierra]

i just checked one of fubguns early LA vids from last league a couple days in. even then that was not close to full clearing in one click to where same damage on a pf would just be constantly sprinting (that was with headhunter). And early PF la or poison or w/e u play isnt gonna be even remotely as strong as that

[slender furnace]

Whatever you say bud

[celest blaze]

I actually die quite rarely, and the deaths always feel like I deserved it. Usually from 2-3 misplays combined.

Not really seeing anything in Invoker that is worth bothering with (though I'm not familiar with Unbound Fury), and it's far from the parts of the tree I care about. Pathfinder makes some sense because there's some great crit damage nodes in that part of the tree, though, and the Ascendancy helps to pay for increased travel costs and dump you back out in Warrior again. And the movement of Pathfinder and slow resistance is quite persuasive too.

I'm more than happy to run it back as Gemling this league with some slight changes though and seeing what new stuff I can add in.

Ah, ES + meditate right

yeah this build is tanky for a SC character, but completely unacceptable for HC

alright pre-work nap, have fun theorycrafting.

[rare crypt]

So im thinking of doing an aftershock titan again. For the 3rd time...

[primal forum]

Is it possible to get 100% chance aftershock? It does not seem to be possible looking only at passive tree and support gem

[hexed vessel]

You can get chance to aftershock on weapons cant you

Cant remember how much exactly

Well on maces at least

[tardy smelt]

Ok, my PoE1 brain might be wrong on what I'm planning, so I need a confirmation.
How can a single spark projectile that pierces, hit the same enemy twice? does it need to hit a wall or another enemy first?

[fallen wren]

Anyone theory crafted the best class/ascendancy for melee Werewolf? Invoker?

[eternal pilot]

Isnt alot of the skills still unknown?

[coral sand]

sorry if this has been asked is there a master list of league starters anywhere?

[unreal girder]

No, we know pmuch all of them

[unreal girder]

If you want to play it from lvl 1 probably druid cos it has shapeshift nodes on the tree.

Otherwise most likely pathfinder, invoker or witch hunter

[neon gyro]

Titan is safe bet for bear

[unreal girder]

For bear Id play kitava

[eternal pilot]

Okay. Then i cant really comment. I just saw the werewolfs like lunar assault just looking like a extremly bad ice strike

[unreal girder]

To proc volcanoes and mpre glory

[neon gyro]

Well, I would like Kitava for wolf tho

[eternal pilot]

No idea what they are supposed to deal damage with

[unreal girder]

Freeze attack + basic attack and marks

Wolf basic attack is pretty strong

[neon gyro]

just try to find a way to have perma moon buff. look pretty sick with wolf pack

[unreal girder]

You cant

Cos cooldown wont start before it expires

[neon gyro]

dammit

[serene minnow]

any clever ideas for the new poe2 spell totem support to solve the charges requirement ? seems rough to make just a regular spell totem caster build

[eternal pilot]

Where is the basic attack?

Is it on poedb?

Or is it lunar assault? Cause that ability seems to do no damage

[unreal girder]

Its take

Rake

Lunar is to proc freeze, then rake makes freeze boom

For clear youd just HOI probably

[eternal pilot]

Rake the spear ability?

[unreal girder]

No

Theres 2 rakes

For god knows why

[eternal pilot]

Only one i can find 🤔

[neon gyro]

you sure it rake not Cross Slash?

[unreal girder]

Cross Slash isnt the basic attack

[eternal pilot]

Googling abit it seems that its a talisman attack

[hoary bolt]

its rend isnt it?

[static torrent]

The Wolf default attack is called Shred

[eternal pilot]

But no info on its damage anywhere so hard to say if its good?

[unreal girder]

Apparently its shred now y

[eternal pilot]

Might be wyverns basic

[hoary bolt]

it is yeah

[unreal girder]

Well yeah, welcome to new abikities in poe

[hoary bolt]

at least to my knowledge

[unreal girder]

Y rend is wyvern maul is bear

[eternal pilot]

So how do we know this? Im super confused

[unreal girder]

Ziggyd uploaded a video of act 1 wolf

Looked decent there

We wont know endgame before release

Its just the nature of things

[neon gyro]

only 2 days more

[pliant solar]

is 50% chill a hard limit for it?

[cursive flare]

Saw that ziggy D video, how much do we think the +2 skills was carrying. Bear bossing looked potent.

[rough hollow]

Chat, was it clarified anywhere if you can have 2 different talismans and switch between 2 forms?

[static torrent]

Sure, but if you just want to use different skills from different forms, you only need 1 Talisman.

[cursive flare]

Given how it operates like any other weapon I see why not. I guess maybe you would want different stats on different talismans? Otherwise you can use all 3 forms on 1 talisman.

[rough hollow]

oh, ok. But then why would you pick your form in the talisman UI?

[cursive flare]

Guess its just to show what forms you have on that talisman? Doesn't seem to have any actual practical use.

[rough hollow]

oooh, I shut up. Just watching ZiggyD video and he just startted explaining this 😄

picking form only determines basic attack

[static torrent]

It's the Default Attack you get, and the default form you shift into if swapping to the Talisman.

[cursive flare]

Doesn't the attack you use dictate the form anyways? Is it not redundant or am I misunderstanding the purpose.

Oh nv its only the basic attack im dumb

[hexed vessel]

hey if im running avatar of fire for warrior builds what options do you have to heal because leech doesnt work with it (that wont cost alot)

[celest blaze]

Mostly regen, recoup, and flasks.

Overall, it's not ideal, but if you have lots of regen, you can go Zealot's Oath and ES, and then it's very strong.

[hexed vessel]

ye maybe ES is the way, ty

[uneven elbow]

With little info, what is your current plan to start off your Druid?

[carmine flicker]

login in standard where I have lots of skill gems unused, test every skill there, look at all the new nodes, then think for some hours

I guess that's the most reliable plan

[uneven elbow]

So you’ll likely play something that already exists?

[pale niche]

How does reduced duration works? 80% reduced for a 8 sec duration spells does it give it a 1.6 duration or 6.4?

[carmine flicker]

no, I'll likely spend some time to gather as much info as I can after patch then decide what I will play
standard isn't place to play. is a place to test things for a league to not waste resources there

[pale niche]

I would guess 1.6, but you never know 😂

[carmine flicker]

1.6

[celest oxide]

Okay okay watching the act 1 gameplay

[lime totem]

not that much. % Increased phys is way better and that talismans has no % increased phys

[celest oxide]

Pounce is making me think maybe starting wolf wouldn't be so bad

[pale niche]

Coc plant is a go then

now if only we could have the rest of the skills to see how the big plants are -_-

[celest oxide]

Increased Movespeed between packs AND a really strong movement/slam skill unlocked at level 7?

Might be the wave for campaign lol

Sniped the first noteable lol

[celest oxide]

God I can't decide whether to start on Warrior or Druid for Shapeshifting

[carmine flicker]

wait till ascedancy full info

can't make informed decision on almost no info, after all

[celest oxide]

for sure

Passive Tree gonna be important too

I LOVED how Bear and Wolf looked in that act 1 gameplay

[carmine flicker]

passive can be traveled, it's near each other after all

[celest oxide]

especially Bear near the end of the act

the fact that I can build for Bear but use Pounce and switch to Wolf for speed between maps/map speed is so sick

I think if I go Warrior I lean Titan more than Smith

[carmine flicker]

is bear playable without touching keyboard?

[uneven elbow]

Yeah I know what you mean. I've played since endgame was Dominus up to like Synthesis or Heist. I'm more curious about how others will approach it

[carmine flicker]

like on mouse only

[celest oxide]

though the glory gen could go hard

[celest oxide]

Well you'll at least wanna cast Volcano on Bosses I think

and you'll probably want Pounce for Mobility

[static torrent]

If you have a mouse with a lot of buttons, anything is playable

[celest oxide]

I think if you have a 4 button mouse you can

not that it's always 4 buttons

[carmine flicker]

nah, normal 3 buttons

[celest oxide]

but you have some qol buttons you'll want pressed

[slender furnace]

Why use volcano unless youre scaling proj?

[celest oxide]

Just early on at least

It's kinda like Lightning Rod for your bear slams against a boss

[carmine flicker]

early I can tolerate

[celest oxide]

in act 1

from what I saw

Ziggy was pressing a lot of buttons but the damage for being so early seemed worth it

[slender furnace]

Ah ok early on i get. I think its a useless skill for any transformer build even later in campaign

[celest oxide]

Unlike like when Huntress released and it was a lot of buttons for piss poor damage

[celest oxide]

Eventually yeah

If you start using this skill frequently

since it ends if you go to human form

[quartz pewter]

Volcano's doesn't even look like you need it considering how much damage the bear and wolf form do already lol

[celest oxide]

I think just being able to switch between Bear and Wolf for Slams/Mobility will be great

https://youtu.be/R2SAoj2eWVk?si=Tojpzf7M3hB-zWiB&t=1554

Watch at time stamp

for quick Executioner kill

was cool

[quartz pewter]

Also depends on the changes to ignite.. maybe volcano's do make sense early on

[celest oxide]

Candlemass right after got insta melted

Wyvern I think will be good later on but looked clunky in act 1

but you didn't get many good lightning skills

[quartz pewter]

Bear -> Wyver might be the play there.... Bear form to generate the charges for the wyvern

[celest oxide]

If you can automate empowering Rend and get Flame Breath or Rolling Magma ripping I think it'll be pretty sweet

I'm thinking bear with Werewolf for pounce/mobility

I bet Rolling Magma with like Multishot + Overabundance Volcanos can be good

early on

[hexed vessel]

really want to know how good wyvern flying fire breath mode is for bossing

[celest oxide]

Apparently it's single target goes crazy

[hexed vessel]

think they said the fire stacks the ignites

[celest oxide]

because it stacks ignite

[hexed vessel]

ye

[celest oxide]

So I'm expecting it to be a boss melter

And in the interview he said endgame with proper gear (Uniques though) you can probably fly and melt through a whole map

would be cool to see

[hexed vessel]

hah ye with enough movement speed and skill duration

[slender furnace]

I think hes just wrong on that one since you cant gen rage during it.

[quartz pewter]

Well the Shaman generates rage passively

[slender furnace]

Skill duration is meaningless because the rage cost

[celest oxide]

Well we'll have to see the uniques he had in mind when he said that right

[slender furnace]

Not during flame breath. Read the skill.

[celest oxide]

The duration is based on Rage spent so if you can really fuckin pop off with your max rage I could see like a 20-30 second burn maybe?

[quartz pewter]

If you're spending rage to use a skill, you're going to get that rage back really quick with the Shaman ascendancy

[celest oxide]

The empowered Rend looks really chunky as well

[slender furnace]

Again, read the skill

[celest oxide]

I'm picturing that with good charge generation/automation and a tonne of attack speed feeling really good

And all shapeshifting builds even in melee should have inherently good movement because of Pounce/Werewolf form

unless you're built to never change forms for some benefit

[quartz pewter]

He probably also didn't mean it in a literal sense.. but ideally, you can do that ability any time cause you'll have a lot of rage generation lol

[celest oxide]

Like

if you can generate enough rage to fly for like 15-20 seconds and can generate that rage quickly as well

I think that would probably feel pretty good

except it's hard to scale movespeed penalty on that side of the tree I think?

And you would probably wanna scale that if you're doing flame breath

[quartz pewter]

Again, I think you took his commentary to literal.

[slender furnace]

I took what he said for what he said

[neon gyro]

I hope we must at least immune to ground dot/effect while flying.

[quartz pewter]

Hope

[neon gyro]

at least it make sense.

[quartz pewter]

If I was a betting man I would bet no

[neon gyro]

but we all know how ggg love their ground effect

[quartz pewter]

I think that question is already answered too, does the Leap Slam avoid ground stuff?

[neon gyro]

also, flying need to have some kind of benefit otherwise it just paying ms penalty just to look cool lol

[quartz pewter]

Unless they have a tag to it, it's not really an actual mechanic

[neon gyro]

which is the worst case scenario, at least for me

[celest oxide]

I doubt you can be hit by melee while you're flying

[uneven elbow]

Why wouldnt you?

[celest oxide]

How are they supposed to hit you if you're in the air

[uneven elbow]

It would be OP if you could just avoid damage

[quartz pewter]

It's just an animation, unless they made flying a built in mechanic for stuff like avoidance... you're going to get hit

It's that same concept as a Leap Slam

Just a long animation

[uneven elbow]

Exactly, there's not even logic to it since there's also ranged enemies

[neon gyro]

it would make sense for not getting hit while flying by melee, but at the same time, it kinda op for ggg to let that happen.

[celest oxide]

I quite literally said melee

[fossil flint]

in the showcase it looked like the energy shield went down while he was using it

[neon gyro]

they should also make fire/ignite interact with plant skill, like water

[slender furnace]

Lol they arent going to make flying immune to melee

[fossil flint]

demonform flies already and isnt; it will be the same

[neon gyro]

demonform fly isnt 5m above ground.

[slender furnace]

This doesnt matter

Balance matters

[neon gyro]

it is matter when the whole game still in EA.

[slender furnace]

No, it doesnt matter. If youre expecting like lore accurate abilities youre gonna be waiting all eternity

[neon gyro]

i'm not expecting it. Just saying it within the realm of possible.

[slender furnace]

Its not because it would be completely broken

[neon gyro]

if you said so.

[spare flint]

i was trying to theorycraft chronomancer ascendancy with ice wolf. any way this could work?

[neon gyro]

Time stop work with everything.

[celest oxide]

Work on your delivery lol

[carmine flicker]

What's wrong there tho, immunity to melee would be broken af

[slender furnace]

Huh?

[slender furnace]

Oh, hes saying its a joke...yeah dude doesnt get how insanely broken that would be

[midnight geode]

can an enemy be both shocked and electrocuted at the same time?

[zinc thorn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5BoOCLCP9M can this be decent starter or its totall bait? I dont need S tier build, i just want something that looks fun for me

[celest oxide]

I’m coping/hoping that they change Shaman ascendency around to have furious wellspring before the Spell Damage node, but I doubt it

Would prolly start Shaman instead of Titan then

[honest hawk]

Can you use two different lineage supports on the same skill?

[sharp thorn]

Yeah.

[uncut bay]

ember is always strong against single target

the clear is not that good, but you can clear with it too theoretically

[serene minnow]

can spells be buffed by multiple infusions effects at once? like firestorm if you have all infusions, or does it picks one of the infusions

[fringe kelp]

does conversion happen before or after "gain X as extra Y"? Cause if it happens after, that means that a 5/10/5 painters servant is basically identical to a 10/5/5 painters servant, in terms of output damage. (apart from the fact that if you have separate "gain % of ele as fire", it would stack additively only with the fire damage from painters which would slightly decrease its effectiveness, etc, but ignore that for now)

[celest blaze]

The answer I heard yesterday was that it applies "simultaneously" but I don't know what that means.

I've always assumed that, say, if you use a purely physical attack and have Avatar of Fire, which converts it entirely to Fire, you would gain 0 extra damage from a "Gain X% of Physical Damage as Fire" modifier.

[burnt gust]

On paper (ignoring that we all are sick of deadeye), is it the best Asc over WH for galvanic shards shockburst if you play one class the whole league?

[fringe kelp]

simultaneously is not possible haha it's one or the other. Order of operations only has two answers 😄

Like, gain 5% of elemental as extra cold is actually 3 things at the same time, as far as I know

• gain 5% of cold damage as extra cold
• gain 5% of fire damage as extra cold
• gain 5% of lightning damage as extra cold.

So those are all happening. The question is, if you have an attack that say, does 100 lightning damage. And a 5/10/10 painters.

It would gain 5 cold damage from that, 10 fire, and 10 lightning.

So now your attack is dealing 5/10/110. THEN is it converting a third of each of those into cold/fire/lightning?
To deal about 41/41/41

OR, is it taking the 100 lightning damage, converting into cold/fire/lightning,

Now we have a 33/33/33. THEN it applies the extra,
so it adds 5/10/10
And we end up with like, ~38/43/43?

I'm guessing its the former, and it applies conversion at the end. I could test this ingame if I just purchase a painters servant that isn't a 10/10/10 and look at a skill that only deals one damage type. But I don't have game installed at the moment lol

[celest blaze]

my gut is that the "gain extra" happens last. So, the 38/43/43 result yes

[quartz pewter]

When target dummy GGG?

[celest blaze]

I'm not certain, but the PoE2 philosophy seems to be gaining extra after everything is fully calculated now, like how gaining extra ES based on your life total is after CI now

(though obviously damage calculation is its own... thing)

[serene minnow]

how does this work ? just put spells inside an invocation spirit skill and they just trigger with no pre-requisite ?

[sharp thorn]

No, you still need energy and such. You just automate it. But unlike cast on gems it happens every 2 seconds.

[celest blaze]

There's a guide here that may help explain: https://discord.com/channels/174993814845521922/1321237459987726366

[serene minnow]

interesting, maybe an option to stick like living bomb + frost bomb for "passive" infusions

[light island]

do we know if there is any more info on the path unseen ascendancy yet?

Path not taken*

[hexed vessel]

Wonder if that works while using avatar of fire

[celest blaze]

interesting

would not have guessed that

[hexed vessel]

ye i thought the same a while back

looks like adds all your total damage together then converts it to fire

but im curious about those gloves

[celest blaze]

I'm exploring using Resonance for power charge generation, but even with resonance I'm not really seeing a good way of generating bulk power charges either lol

it's so stupid hard to generate charges reliably in this game (against bosses, where the multi-skill gameplay that can actually be rewarded SHOULD be).

[near jewel]

Guys, for a casual noob what would be stronger - mortar cannon warbringer or shield wall kitava?

[celest blaze]

mmm, very different playstyle. Shield Wall Kitava can be stronger but is likely to be more frustrating. Mortar Cannon Warbringer a bit more of a laid back style

from my experience with Shield Wall, it can feel bad at bossing until you get your attack speed and damage up

but a variant of that is what I'm giong to be going with again this league.

Mortar Cannon Warbringer is likely to be better for chilling and clearing.

[fringe kelp]

uhh. yeah I have no idea. The other question is how do multiple conversions stack? Cause painters servant is already converting a total of 100% of elemental damage, this skill would then make it a total of 175% of elemental damage....

so does it convert 33/175 to cold, 33/175 to lightning, and 108/175 to fire?

and THEN deal none of cold/lightning? 🤔

but that would then mean you could use any element with that node. Avatar of fire would basically mean you'd deal slightly less damage but could use all 3 elements freely

the problem is it doesn't give any bonus damage, so IDK if it's really better than painters servant alone 🤷‍♂️

I guess it converts physical to fire which might be the main reason you're using it

but at least for elemental sources, I think it's worse

case you end up with 108/175 fire which is 61.7% fire damage, but 0% cold/lightning, versus 33.3% fire damage, but ALSO 33% cold and 33% lightning....

It's an interesting idea though.... I think there could be something here

[sharp thorn]

There is an order between gems, passive tree and items. Gems convert first for sure but I don't remember the rest.

[fringe kelp]

according to that link, gems convert first, but passive tree and items i think happen together. So i'm not sure how a total of 175% conversion works out, but I presume it divides out of the total

[sharp thorn]

Oh, yeah. In that case the game normalizes conversions, turning 175% into 100% with the same proportions of converted damage.

[fringe kelp]

right. So then the painters servant + avatar of fire is pointless because avatar of fire is already converting all damage types to fire

so painters servant isn't really doing anything for you at that point?

[sharp thorn]

Yeah.

[fringe kelp]

it changes the ratios, but only to be worse, not better

[honest grail]

shield wall is pretty brainless and OP

and got buffed this league (citadel support gigabuff, can craft shields with over 20% qual now)

[nimble latch]

these remnant conversions seem kinda sick for stormweaver this patch

[celest blaze]

I found myself dying quite a bit at first, but builds have improved since when i was first experimenting with it. With the slow speed and the high blood magic mana cost it wasn't great initially

I've finally gotten around to looking at the "carn build" someone was mentioning the other day and there are some interesting ideas in there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcnCFoMYwzk

[wraith palm]

I’m a bit late but any source of damage as extra doesn’t convert (unless using avatar of fire) if that helps with what you’re planning

[celest blaze]

ah, right, avatar of fire isn't a great example because it's more an exception I guess

[fringe kelp]

wait how is avatar of fire an exception? where does it happen in the conversion order?

[wraith palm]

Avatar of fire converts everything to fire

[fringe kelp]

cause if it happens after convert X to Y, then it DOES work with painters servant?

[wraith palm]

Avatar of fire is global

[fringe kelp]

well so are other conversions like painters servant

[wraith palm]

Avatar of fire is above all

[fringe kelp]

interesting.... So if it happens AFTER conversions AND after gain X as Y....

Then painters servant would take an elemental hit, split it into the 3 converted types. the "gain X as Y" is then added to all 3 types. THEN, 75% of THAT total dmg is converted to fire?

[celest blaze]

yeah, that really explains why the test results you showed doesn't match what I've typically seen with "gain as extra" stuff.

[wraith palm]

Avatar of fire converts everything to fire then multiplies ur total damage by 0.75

Or whatever the number is

I’m not even sure damage as extra works with it haha

[fringe kelp]

so avatar of fire still benefits from "deal 50% more cold damage" on a cold damage spell?

[wraith palm]

No

[fringe kelp]

but it WOULD benefit from gain 10% of damage as cold damage

[wraith palm]

Not sure

[fringe kelp]

or is it just a third layer of conversions?

[wraith palm]

No you’d have to test but gain can’t be converted to another damage type, kinda like dots. Avatar of fire literally makes you unable to poison with plague fingers as an example

[fringe kelp]

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile2builds/comments/1o3l13x/how_does_avatar_of_fire_work_with_partial/

it claims "gained damage is lost unless its fire"

[wraith palm]

Yeah that makes sense

[fringe kelp]

which would go inline with it being still at the "conversion" layer of this link

[wraith palm]

Idk about true but makes sense

[fringe kelp]

https://discord.com/channels/174993814845521922/1321237459987726366

so then I'm back on the boat of, is it a third step of conversions, or is it just at the same time as the other ones

easy enough to test with painters servant but I'd have to reinstall the game and respec a whole character to test 😄

[wraith palm]

It doesn’t matter, only fire or general damage increases help

[fringe kelp]

well that would be because increased/more happens after conversions and after gain X as Y

[wraith palm]

Attack, spell, projectile, melee, etc and elemental + fire

[fringe kelp]

and gain X as Y happens before the increased/more, but AFTER conversions, which is why only gain X as FIRE matters

[wraith palm]

There is no after with this stuff it’s all a multiplier

[fringe kelp]

it literally has an order of operations

the things are applied in a certain order

and depending on which order they are applied, it very much changes the result

that's the whole point of this conversation is trying to figure out which order of things is the true one 😄

[wraith palm]

Weapon damage x skill multi x additive damage pool x crit x gain as extra additive pool x additive inc damage taken pool

Etc

[fringe kelp]

yes the final output is multiplicative with all those things. But that's irrelevant to the other question which is about ordering and conversions because that very much changes which effects actually impact your final damage (and how), when it comes to stuff like avatar of fire/painters servant

[wraith palm]

Conversion is first

[fringe kelp]

did you look at the other link I posted?

[wraith palm]

That’s why phys damage increases don’t help as much as ele increases on skills that convert more than 50%

[fringe kelp]

it already has the following:

1. First, add up our Flat values, along with any base values
2. Apply all Conversion and Gain As effects (see below)
3. Apply all relevant modifiers to the stat: Multiply by each applicable More modifier (separately), as well as by the sum of applicable Increased modifiers (in a single step).

then it expands on 2

[wraith palm]

Gain as is wrong, it’s own pool

[fringe kelp]

2a - skill conversions (gems)
2b - all other conversions
2c - gain X as Y

in that order

so conversions happen prior to gain X

which is why gain X as COLD won't give you more damage with avatar of fire, PRESUMING it goes into the 2b pool

however, what you're claiming, which I'd like to have someone test for sure, is that avatar of fire is more like 2b-b, it happens before 2c but still AFTER 2b

[wraith palm]

You gain as cold in this instance then avatar of fire says you can only deal fire damage so it says nope

[fringe kelp]

yes, that's how all conversions work

[wraith palm]

… outside of avatar of fire gain as is a multi

[fringe kelp]

idk why this person did 1 2 3 it should have been 1 2 3 4 with conversions on 2 and gain as 3, but w/e, same difference, they did expand on the ordering

the point is, avatar of fire, is it 2b, or after 2b

[wraith palm]

A multi that’s additive with other sources of gain as

[fringe kelp]

gain as happens prior to "increase X" though, so that's important to have ordered that way

that's why it's not part of 3

again, should have been 4