Ways to Support Non-Premium Package Devs

[swift trellis]

I hope you'll understand that I am not entertaining suggestions for alternative proposals as part of this discussion- that way lies madness as i'd be asking hundreds of community developers, who will all have extremely different opinions about different ways to address this problem. This is specifically about this proposed concept.

[hushed imp]

I wonder if a "supportme" field in manifests would be more useful

toss it somewhere in the setup interface

[woven plover]

A: No.
B: No.
C: Hard no.

[warm coyote]

A: I feel like this would be a benefit, since some packages have patreon and ko-fi links already as part of their welcome popup.
B: I might use it, but what I dev and maintain is small enough that I don't feel like there's a cost to it.
C: I have no idea.

[terse reef]

Assuming there are popups - which I would feel dirty putting into my modules

[swift trellis]

#1248054181814865971 message

[outer lotus]

A. No
B. Probably
C. No

[warm coyote]

oh for sure, but I'm just saying some have it as part of their "welcome to the module" popup.

[hushed imp]

but it's a good one 😦

anyway, abc = no

[atomic cove]

A. Maybe?
B. Yes
C. Doubt

[ebon light]

A. I can see the benefit of it.
B. I would use it.
C. I know some that would, some that wouldn't.

[terse reef]

A. Yes
B. Yes
C. Maybe, erring on no.

Given that as a server, we can't really support people posting links nillywilly, but I don't see a better way than this. It has to be visible to be useful, but without engagement from end users, it may not serve its purpose.

[craggy hamlet]

A. The visibility is beneficial
B. Yes
C. Not a significant portion in all likelihood but maybe over time could yield some benefit

[dusky ibex]

A: Not sure. Being behind a link and inside Discord makes discoverability poor.
B: No. I've discussed compensation with the other Lancer contributors before, and our consensus is that introducing money to an ad hoc team just complicates things and can create bad blood. So I guess we're not really your target audience. 😉
C: A few. But again, being inside Discord severely limits its reach. Based on a few snippets of data, a small percentage of the Foundry community is even on Discord in the first place.

[pastel trench]

This seems like a good approach, can be displayed in-app on the module UI, and on the web site modules index - Github also provide this, but few users visit the project repo

[near hawk]

A. Negligible if any
B. I mean what's the harm? Though I'd have to be bothered to actually send a message there
C. For vast majority it will become yet another muted channel. Best case scenario some high roller might be feeling charitable and peruse

[dusky ibex]

I strongly agree that the best approach is something in the manifest or package listing, so that it can be shown on the Foundry site and within the app with no further logins or hoops required.

[swift trellis]

84,000 users with 30,000 active at any given moment is not an insignificant number---but it is small compared to our overall user base, yes.

[tardy bison]

A. Potentially. It's hard to say for sure, but it's at least something slightly more visible to offer
B. Probably not, most of the stuff I make isn't that significant anyways
C. Maybe. It's hard to say for sure

Ultimately, IDK that it would be super useful, but it's hard to think of much that would be significantly better while also being realistically something that can be implemented

[urban aspen]

how many of those will ever bother looking at tha channel though ? most people will have it muted

[swift trellis]

That's the hard question, yeah.

[urban aspen]

i know i would ^^ (mute the channel)

[hushed imp]

I would only because nath guilted me by asking directly

the rest of the community won't have that looking down on them

[swift trellis]

I will note that this doesn't prevent you from having additional links at the top of your package descriptions for support- as i know many of you already do

[pastel trench]

A standardized way of declaring sponsorship llinks, and having them displayed would be beneficial I think

[woven plover]

I don't have any faith that a lack of discoverability is the main issue. People just aren't gonna toss a fiver at yall.

[outer lotus]

I will say I feel this is part and parcel of the general issues with package discoverability

[dusky ibex]

Based on numbers I can extrapolate, that's somewhere around 10-20% of the community I think. If you take the 10:1 rule for people consuming vs people willing to pay some support, you're limiting yourself to ~1-2% of the community.

But like I said, I don't really have a horse in this race. 😉

[swift trellis]

Regarding visibility of the channel specifically, it can be toggled to 'enabled by default' in our channel list, I believe, as many of them are.

Secondarily, it can be tacked onto other announcements, such as, for example, announcements of new versions where we regularly remind users not to update if they're dependent on modules- we could attach a sort of 'don't forget to support your favourite module devs' message onto that, linking to the channel.

[ebon light]

I think aside from "ways to increase financial support," a genuinely useful addition to this is:

This channel would allow anyone with the Community Developer role to create a post that would highlight what packages they develop, what they do, and how to support their continued maintenance.

I would love to have a channel post that says, "Hey, I do this work, these are modules I make," somewhere that's cohesive and I can link people to in-Discord. So even if we're excluding financial support as being a primary usefulness of this, I think it would be excellent to have a "Developer Overview" channel for us anyway.

[woven plover]

Secondly I'd rather drink toilet bowl water than advertise myself like a sleazy door-to-door salesman.

[swift trellis]

Yeah, i could absolutely get behind that.

[woven plover]

And thirdly, I don't want to be saddled with users thinking I owe them anything cus they could find some ad or whatever it is that would be posted in such a channel that let them toss a dollar in my face.

[outer lotus]

This is my concern as well

[swift trellis]

I probably don't need to say that this would be optional not mandatory. XD

[woven plover]

Of course. But your question was would I use it. And no. Fuck no.

[swift trellis]

(now take $5 so i can tell you what to do)

[dusky ibex]

That is also a reason why I've never sought to have a Patreon/kofi/whatever, personally. I don't want the perceived obligation.

[woven plover]

I'm high maintenance, its $20 at least

[pastel trench]

Regardless of anyone's personal preference on advertising, I'm not particularly convinced that Discord posts would provide a huge amount of value

[ebon light]

I think it's 100% all about presentation. For this suggestion to be widely used, I feel, especially by all these developers speaking up saying they don't want to advertise themselves and solicit people for monetary support, I think stepping away from focusing on the financial support aspect and focus more on providing a way for developers to just say, "Hey! I contribute to these things! Here's what I do." And optionally those who want to include support links, kofi/Patreon/etc, can, but no one feels like they have to.

It also might have people not mute the channel as quickly if it's presented as "Meet the community developers" more than "Here's ways to support the community developers."

[swift trellis]

I'm gonna let this topic roll as i ruminate on it over the next few days to let more devs give feedback on it, so if i'm unresponsive know that i'm still reading along.

[swift trellis]

This is very thoughtful toward optics, which is something i think about a lot. I definitely agree framing will be a major factor on user uptake here.

[lost wigeon]

A No. B Only if it's easy to automate having it attached to package release announcements. C Not most, and most, if not all, who would probably already know how to get to the GitHub/Gitlab/etc pages for modules they care about.

[ebon light]

I know plenty of servers have an introduction channel and people actively keep those unmuted to they can see the new people and read through them. Of course, can't do that for all users in a big server like this, but the same logic applies - I know people would love to read through and get to know who's working on the things they use to run/play games weekly, so that would be infinitely more well-received than the original intent to provide a way to support non-premium package developers.

[swift trellis]

re: b
package release announcements are a webhook that pulls the first few lines of the package description page, so all it would take would be adding the link to the top of your package page description field.

[nova willow]

I was nervous of the same thing as Zhell, that people would start thinking I owe them something if I started accepting money. I found a compromise (because several people asked if I take tips/donations/whatever you want to call it) by quietly putting a kofi link in my module readmes on GitHub. Let's be honest though, the overwhelming majority of people don't check GitHub, lol.

I think a channel like this would get the same treatment the current module releases channel does, and just get muted and never looked at by anyone. It does also kind of feel like soliciting, which isn't inherently a bad thing, but in my particular situation doesn't feel great.

I think shark had a really great idea to add a link to whatever in the manifest to support the developer, and it can show up on the tile for the module.

[swift trellis]

@hushed imp you see what happens? you see what happens when you don't listen when i say "i'm not entertaining alternative proposals"?

[nova willow]

Hahahhahahha

[swift trellis]

Gonna ping his ass every single time someone mentions it now

[terse moss]

A, B, C => no.
As a community dev, I don't expect recognition or retribution from community members. That's not something I believe I could ever count on. It's just bonus when it happens.

I would however highly welcome anything that helps cut down on my dev effort, and that means more diligence from the Core team itself in making the package dev/maintenance effort as straightforward and least time consuming as possible, e.g.

• always up-to-date and more extensive API documentation
• improved code coverage in regression test campaigns (realizing you've spent a few hours investigating an issue in your package only to realize it was a regression in Core code can be a motivation killer)
• more stability in the API, fewer breaking changes
• more systemic documentation of breaking changes and other opinionated changes in Core behaviour.

Bottom line: what's going to make me stop maintaining my package ultimately is not lack of recognition/praise. It's the many hours I have to invest just to adapt to API changes.

[swift trellis]

In all seriousness yes i'm aware there are other issues related to package visibility and other ways to increase visibility for supporting community devs by way of the main software and our website. Those aren't things i have any control over.

This is something I do have control over.

[wind kestrel]

A) Highly dependant on C
B) Maybe, just because it exists
C) Severely doubt it'd be significant

[hushed imp]

I can't read 😦

[swift trellis]

Please know that while i empathize with what you're trying to say here, and understand your goal in saying it.

While I advocate internally on behalf of the community (and community developers), and I can understand frustration that comes from trying to stay abreast of new core version releases...

I am not part of the dev team and your suggestions here are not part of the scope of this discussion. I don't write API docs. I don't control API breaking changes. In short:

Sir, this is a wendys

[terse moss]

I do realize this. As community manager, I was thinking you can amplify our voices though, so that's why I mentioned this anyway despite your warning at the top that it was supposed to be about your specific proposal only. :p

[mint vine]

I'll have two Baconators and a Dave's Double

[nova willow]

We love you Nath, thanks for thinking of us 🙂

[swift trellis]

I can promise you that i am one of the loudest voices in meetings shouting "is this a breaking change?!" or going "Should I reach out to <group of devs> about <known breaking change> to solicit feedback?"

The dev team does strive to not completely upend the apple cart when it comes to rolling out new versions, but there's also a kind of chicken-and-egg problem. It comes from us not getting feedback on what actually breaks in systems and modules until after stable is released, when we start banging the drum for devs to try their packages in a new version during the API dev phase. We can't know how broadly we broke things if people don't test, and people don't test because they figure the next phase is going to break more things.

[white dagger]

A: It is something I asked @swift trellis for, so yes, I believe there would be benefit but I have no data to back that up.
B: I would use it. I only have one module, but I would love to have a channel to promote it when I release major improvements. My module is FOSS and will stay that way, but I really am not aware of many impactful ways to advertise its existence.
C: I don't know. If it showcases cool modules from single-person dev teams that wouldn't otherwise get exposure then I hope so, in a Field of Dreams sort-of way.

[knotty oar]

ABC=no

[terse moss]

I would argue that there is a lot more that the dev team can do to prevent issues upstream, with increased internal testing (API automated unit & integration tests, or if the team already has those, then increasing the code coverage).
It often seems to me as package dev that I am expected to play the role of a Quality Assurance team member.

[umbral flume]

I've thought a lot about improving promotion of free modules in the past. In general, if free module devs could take a free signal boost without it meaning more support requests, they would take it. Generally, they don't usually take most of the promotion opportunities that are already available. As it stands, this would just become another place they would have to monitor for support requests. I think the module devs who want to promote themselves already have everything they need

[swift trellis]

Sorry, this is my fault for continuing the discussion but this isn't the place for this convo.

[swift trellis]

I don't envision the forum threads allowing user replies. more just a 'landing page' of sorts.

[subtle trout]

A) If you want to give attention to those of us making free modules, then the thing to do would be to put it in the application itself.

B) Maybe. If there were some rotating mod feature, sure I'd toss mine in.

C) You'll be lucky to get a couple thousand people to even acknowledge the channel exists. Then some fraction of that will watch it. Some fraction of that will make use of said mods, and some fraction of that will visit an author's Paypal or Patreon or Onlyfans or whatever. I imagine the average donor per module through Discord promotion here will average less than one. A lot less.

[mint vine]

...Onlyfans?

[umbral flume]

Shrug idk then. I think a small minority of people will take advantage based on how #self-promotion in the League's server goes. Also similar, free modules are rarely promoted on Reddit unless the person has a patreon

The activation cost of writing self-promotion prevents participation from those who don't have any financial gain

[subtle trout]

This is part of why I'd suggest having a free mod rotation feature in the app rather than some self promotion deally.

[swift trellis]

we...already do that.

[subtle trout]

Right now I guess I assumed it was all paid promotions, sorry.

[swift trellis]

nah we're pretty aggressive about making sure we put as much (usually more) free content in the featured content box as possible.

[alpine vale]

A. I could see some people valuing it.
B. Maybe?
C. I feel like there's a lot of noise in this server to begin with and it likely would just be muted by community members or left off their channel listing. Maybe some will find value in it.

Ultimately though, this is is fairly low effort, so there's no real harm in trying it. I don't forsee it making things worse, so it can only help

[gusty mural]

A: It could but I am not hopeful
B: I might but spend so much of my life struggling with development and maintenance that I doubt it.
C: It would be nice if the community rallied behind developers who use their free time (or all of it) to develop systems or tools for them to use but, they do not seem to be understanding of the work and free time involved when they want their favourite package to be updated to the latest Foundry version, pronto. I am hopeful that the aforementioned bunch is not the group that would support this in any case and that the others would do so, at least for the packages they use.

I have five active systems (one of them, GRPGA is a generic monstrosity with six rulesets, one of which is hijacked to support a dozen others) and three modules with work ongoing to add to that number. People tossing a few coins in my hat would be nice but reducing my maintenance overhead would be nicer.

[elder sapphire]

A: Maybe?
B: No
C: Unlikely

[subtle trout]

The only thing I've seen for the past month is the 'Tasha's Cauldron of Everything' ad. For a system I don't even run on top of it all.

[swift trellis]

wow that's weird since we only put it out on the 24th

[tardy bison]

Time's been funky for the last couple years, lol

[subtle trout]

I'm self employed you can't ask me what day it is and expect an accurate answer. >_>

[astral steppe]

I have the featured content widget hidden by my ad blocker

A. I don't think it could hurt.
B. I think it's unlikely I would, but I don't really know how the forum feature works, so maybe?
C. I don't know. I'm sure some people would use it, but I don't know what volume would justify it. My hunch is that it wouldn't be used much.

[zenith basin]

A. Probably not. As a hypothetical random user, clicking a link in a package description that tries to go to a discord forum post feels weird at best (if I'm already in the server) and offputting at worst (if I'm not and it either blocks me or tries to get me to join). That discord-forum-post-link could have led to some readme file or wiki page on the dev's github or patreon or anywhere else.
B. No, but I only maintain one package with a noncommercial license so I'm not the target audience here.
C. No. Discord forum posts are even less discoverable than the stream of bot posts in package releases.

If the goal here is to raise visibility I just don't see it adding any value beyond the existing avenues of where we can put links, while being less useful and more awkward than any other thing you could point those existing links at.

[astral steppe]

Personally, the biggest obstacle to soliciting tips is social anxiety and the second biggest is figuring out what service to use

[west storm]

A. Rather no
B. Certainly no
C. Can imagine it will be used. And a common way helps people getting used to it and if they know how they don't have to use diffrent ways. If I get it right this is more for one time tips or also for more regular services like Patreon. There are already some developers using that and mix free and premium to support continuous development.

[red ocean]

I think visibility and discoverability is not improved by by yet more discord messages, especially if they have little to no connection to the actual application. I have no idea what most of the stuff that appears on releases does already. And would mute the channel.

So C is a no and thus A and b are moot.

[slow plaza]

No to all, sentiment is great but I think this will not reach many people who wouldn't have already gone out of their way to find the kofi etc links.

[winter girder]

It's a real matter for me, but unfortunaly i think abc = no. Having a Patreon and collecting some datas, i think patreons users = 0.05% of users so far (or 8 patreons for about 2000 users). In fact, it would be more time worthy to make one math private lesson every month than maintaining that patreon. Developping extra content for premium users only is the only way to fund a free module with costs imho, but i have no clue which content could be time worthy to bring 1-2% of 2K people people donate 1-3 dollar every month if i go this way. At the end, the community of people i have joined is the only real reward. ❤️ 🫂

[stiff turret]

I don't need any such financial support, but if this was added I would spend 20 minutes creating a post detailing my modules and then "if you like my work, donate to [charity name]".

However, I'd definitely want to have a "module discussion" forum/thread post per module (or per developer). Currently there is no good space for low-effort chat about my modules that would ping me. Github issues are high effort and only for bugs/suggestions, with many people preferring not to create a github account (I dunno why); there is no place for someone to just quickly say "hey, I love your module!" or "hey, is there a way to do [x] with this module?".

So... if this option is implemented, I'm advocating to make all these posts intended primarily for module discussion, with the opening post having room for an optional "how to support me" text if the dev wants that.
(note: this can only work well if discord allows users to mute a channel but unmute a thread in that channel, or something similar)

[manic anvil]

A: No
B: No
C: Definetely No

As a Discord I have way to much channels to read and I am muting most announcement channels because they annoy me, so I expect that visibility in a channel is worth nothing.

Heck, I have users who don't even manage to find the game systems page on the Foundry website to follow any links.
So I guess all that would help is exposure directly in the application itself.

[regal girder]

Just a thought: consider being a simple user, having 20 nice free modules/systems installed. Would you search among the few thousands entries of module developpers ? Would you follow a link to give some money (or follow instructions to give to a charity) for these 20 modules ? It may happen, but as system développer, I am more interested in a place for user feedback, a discussion space (which I have on the french discord), and the kind words I receive from the users when they like what I do.

For visibility and donating for modules I use, I would have more chance to donate if the module has some sort of flags 'free' 'support if you like' directly in foundry interface, because I would see it when installing/updating the module.

Last, for modules supported by multiple people, question about dispatching donations is sure to bring arguments...

[limber folio]

When I first installed Foundry during the pandemic to continue playing DnD, I didn't have high expectations. I didn't believe a VTT could compete with the experience of playing in person. To my great surprise, as a DM, I found that I could dedicate more time to the fantasy aspect of the adventure because I was no longer mentally exhausted keeping track of all the skills, DCs, combat turns, who attacks whom, which abilities need to be used, and many other tiring things that all DMs experience. So my goal as a DM in Foundry was to streamline all these things as much as possible. Back then, I tried almost all DnD modules, watched hours of tutorials on YouTube to find the most beneficial modules that could help me in my games. This way, I found modules like Sequencer, Automatic Animation, jb2a, Midi Qol that I know lots of you don't like, and many more. For me and my players, the DnD experience wouldn't be what it is now without these modules. I am happy to contribute to these developers. My background is in Motion Graphics, and now I create my own modules and in my free time content for these modules. Do I want to make something I love a full-time job? Hell yes, I do. So for me A, B, C = yes.

[honest vale]

A. No/Maybe, I find few people find their way to the advertised topical discord server for tech support, but it's mostly only visible from the project URL README right now. They're just not engaged enough to make the effort.
B. No, I'm actually looking for contributors, not financial support.
C. No, users will probably not click through to yet another discord resource.

[tiny fern]

Discord's search and discoverability are terrible, so I'm leaning towards "no" for all 3 points. Maybe this could be fixed with good integrations in other places, but I don't see how that would be better than just linking to the module page or the author's website.

[neon jacinth]

A: No.
B: No.
C: No.

[surreal ivy]

A. No
B. No
C. No

[rain umbra]

A. Whether the community devs feel this would actually be any benefit
Maybe but it would essentially just add one more thing to maintain. Release a new module? Update the post. Abandon a module? Update the post. Change anything in the module in a significant way? Update the post. I feel like this would just add more work than it is worth.
B. Whether you as an individual would use it
Yes, but only because I would feel compelled to do so, either because many do it and I don't want to fall behind or because no one does and I'd feel bad you put in the effort and no one uses it.
C. Whether you think members of the general community would use it
Most likely not. I already have a message in my modules settings that very unobtrusively yet visibly suggests a donation but since the introduction I did not observe an increase of donations at all. I think people who are able and willing to support a dev will seek a way to do so, everyone else won't. Adding more ways to find out how to support someone will not change that.

I don't mean to discourage you and appreciate the thought but I don't feel like this would be the thing that changes everything.

[pastel trench]

Having to put a dono link as the first line of the package description would make me feel quite icky.

OT: On the topic of soliciting feedback before release, I've advocated before for employing the common software practice of publishing release candidates, which would give the community confidence that code has stopped being a moving target. There's not really a necessity to rush straight from feature dev to GA release.

[rancid fulcrum]

A. No. A module developer needs something more direct. A channel buried on a discord server that has a pile of people begging (legitimately) for money, is not attractive, and is not something that is going to work.

I don't have numbers to support this position, but I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of people who own a foundry license are not active members of the discord community, and as such would not even know of the existence of such a channel.

Secondly, in my personal experience (and I would imagine that it's not uncommon), I have over 100 modules running, and have never once considered looking for a thread on the discord server to see if there's a way I could support the developer of the module. For the record, I drop over $100/month on patreons to run my RPG business, so I am very willing to support other developers, but this proposed method would not increase donations to my module by even a penny.

Thirdly, look at other palces where things like this have been implemented. Specifically, I'm looking at the premium lfg subreddit. I can't remember the name off-hand, but its there because professional DMs were flooding /r/lfg with their advertisements, so they were asked to put such posts in a different forum. The result? All the advertisers went there, but players rarely did. The forum was just a pro-dm circle jerk. The same, I fear, would happen with such a forum on the foundry discord. It would just be filled with developers asking for donations. And the only people who will see it, will be other developers asking for donations