Idea: Conditional Registration of Character Sheets

[tacit pagoda]

Something I've noticed with respect to character sheets from modules is that many of the modules set the character sheet as the default. I can understand the intent. The assumption being made is that if you have the Horror Companion module enabled, then you must be playing a game that's using the Horror Companion specifically, and you obviously want to use that sheet. Same with Deadlands, Rifts, etc.

But this is Savage Worlds, a system known to have GMs pulling resources from different settings and genres to make their own thing.

For example, while I might have the Horror Companion active, it's actually so that I can pull in powers and Edges into a fantasy setting, but when my players and I open the character sheets, we're greeted with the HC's layout and graphics.

The Idea

Instead of automatically registering and defaulting to their own sheets, I propose that as a general practice, modules offer a setting for enabling the sheet(s) they provide (some modules might come with multiple sheets), and if that sheet is enabled, then it will register it, but under no circumstance should it assume to be the default.

Additionally, perhaps the SWADE system could have a central location in the settings for determining the default sheets. I'm not sure of whether that makes sense yet, but it might be a nice way to have a singular place to change one's default sheets.

(While not related to character sheets, having module-level settings for other alterations such as custom pause images might be welcome as well.)

[fickle pecan]

I don't think there's a need to enable sheets if they're just less aggressive about default: true

I think the current UX though is fine; once you've loaded a module once, you can make sure the sheet is marked as not default

[tacit pagoda]

Why have a long list of sheets if I don't need them?

[fickle pecan]

Why reinvent core foundry UX around sheets?

[tacit pagoda]

I dunno, either way, I've just seen some weirdness with sheets loading even if they're not set to default.

[fickle pecan]

I believe MM has been hard-configuring item sheets to use their source module style

so they aren't following the default sheet config

[tacit pagoda]

You can set that as a flag on the Item. I do this with Backstory Cards.

The issue I'm specifically referring to is with characters though. I know I've seen cases where I've set a sheet as default, and then another sheet is applied when the module is activated. And I could have sworn that my preferred default sheet was still set.

My point is, it's an extra layer of deliberate intentional application of a choice for character sheets if it's behind an "enabled" boolean conditional.

That's a good thing, IMO

[fickle pecan]

Even if you move away from the default, I don't see why you need to add additional settings when ther core foundry UX for the sheet selection dialog works just fine

[tacit pagoda]

I disagree that it works "just fine." For example, sheets have the ability to completely remove the sheet button at the top. There's a few UX issues with how users interact with sheets. Here's a screenshot of the top of the Fantasy Companion JE sheet on an imported JE.

[fickle pecan]

Ah, now that is a different issue to file with Metamorphic

because that's bad practice

My position is pretty straightforward: Core UX is good & expected. People breaking that UX is bad.

[tacit pagoda]

Another issue to report to MM, CSS bleed among sheet styles

[fickle pecan]

Yeah, @quick obsidian is I think the main MM CSS person

[tacit pagoda]

shakes fist furiously

VALENTIIIIINE! (jk)

[finite cipher]

https://tenor.com/rxDV.gif

[harsh pebble]

I'm not entirely sure about registering character sheets based on a setting (I could see a player wanting to use a specific sheet if it was installed, even though the GM had a different default set). But, at a minimum, the premium modules shouldn't make the sheets default: true. Between the the PEG premium modules and some 3PP setting-specific modules, it's simply not reasonable to make an assumption that the MM character sheet is the default.

I keep running into the modules stepping on my toes when I set a character sheet to something and then the module decides it needs to be something different. And it does it every time I update the module, not just on the initial install.

[quick obsidian]

Whatever I did its probably not my fault. I had unrealistic expectations set as a child. Due to a series of 80's films I was raised to believe if i could be the "Best around" that "nothing's gonna ever keep me down" but this has been disproven again and again.

[tacit pagoda]

Right?! What's up with that! As awesome as the 80s were (not really, but in a way, yeah), they really did a lot of damage.

[finite cipher]

So how do you propose we fix that?

Or @tacit pagoda , technically since he brought this up

[tacit pagoda]

I think fundamentally, not setting the sheets as default would be the way to go, but that's a request for the support portal

[harsh pebble]

I would propose registering all sheets with default: false. Let the GM pick their sheet.

[tacit pagoda]

I could have sworn I've seen issues where a sheet gets set on an Actor after the module has been activated without setting it to default, but I could be mistaken. That's what led me to my original request.

Like all of a sudden, my players saw a completely different sheet that I know for a fact was not set as default by me or by the module. But that might be a core bug rather to solve rather than a request for the system to solve.

[finite cipher]

Fair enough. I have a counterpoint tho, specifically if only one sheet is registered (without taking the system sheet into account)

[harsh pebble]

I've seen it happen. I haven't had a chance to track down why. But I would open a character that I had just set a custom sheet for and it would revert every time I reloaded Foundry to the Fantasy Companion sheet for some reason.

[finite cipher]

Say I play SWPF, and only that. It seems reasonable to have that sheet active when I activate the module

[finite cipher]

I wonder if that's a core foundry bug

[tacit pagoda]

I also found out that as a GM whatever I set as default isn't what the player might be using since they can choose whatever sheet they want, or a default sheet gets registered and all of a sudden they're seeing the HC sheet for example

[harsh pebble]

Right. But can't you do that by changing the setting in the Core Foundry settings?

[finite cipher]

Of course you can. The point is you shouldn't have to

And that's where the cookie crumbles, if that's even a turn of phrase

There's gotta be a way to have both options

[tacit pagoda]

Sure, perhaps a distinction between a setting and companion book on whether or not to set the sheet as default

[finite cipher]

I'd wager as far as rules are concerned there's not much difference between the two

[tacit pagoda]

Rules, no. Just in use case

[finite cipher]

The old SFC for example was half the core book for Last Parsec

[tacit pagoda]

Companions are typically for kit bashing, settings are entire settings.

[finite cipher]

I am aware.

Maybe I'm not articulating my point well

[tacit pagoda]

Right, the SFC sheet should not be defaulted, but a TLP sheet could be.

[finite cipher]

Good point

I want to make a ticket for this but tbh I don't know where

[tacit pagoda]

I think it's honestly something for the support portal

This is a premium module level issue

[finite cipher]

It's not really a system topic but submitting a support ticket makes discussion Impossible

[tacit pagoda]

It's certainly a challenge.

And there's no "general" support issue option in the portal

[finite cipher]

And at the end of the day if PEG says no we can discuss this all we want

[tacit pagoda]

We could submit it in the repo and just assign it to John.

[finite cipher]

He's busy enough as is

[tacit pagoda]

If I know PEG well enough, and I'm pretty sure I do, they'll be ok with the companion sheets not being defaulted.

[finite cipher]

Let's hope you're right ^^

[tacit pagoda]

I'll go ahead and submit it for the HC module, but emphasize that it's an issue across all premium modules

I'm still curious about the other issue and whether that's a core bug or just some weird logic/assumption the core code uses to determines which sheet to apply. Like is it remembering if a sheet was previously used even if it was deactivated and reactivated? Is it just weird human perception of patterns that don't exist because that's what human brains do?

[harsh pebble]

I'm wondering if it's dependent on whether the default is specified in the once hook or the init hook. I think you have to register the sheet in init but if it's being triggered when you disable the module and re-enable it, that would track with when it was happening to me yesterday. I'll have to test it later today and see if that's where it's coming from.

[tacit pagoda]

I'm eager to know what you discover

[finite cipher]

which sheet is used should be saved as a flag on the document so it's entirely possible it's "just" remembering the previous choice

[tacit pagoda]

In one particular case, it was a brand new sheet that had never been set.

Nor was it set to default in the module

[fickle pecan]

Honestly that sounds like a core bug

[tacit pagoda]

I don't disagree. It's just hard to verify

I might try a clean world and enable modules one at a time to see what happens.

[harsh pebble]

It looks like it correctly used the sheet's flag when I enabled premium core. Had the character set to use default sheet. Enabled the Fantasy Companion, it switched the to Fantasy Companion Sheet. Explicitly set the sheet to the core sheet. Rendered the core sheet.

Disabled the Fantasy Companion module. Core sheet rendered. Re-enabled the Fantasy Companion and it kept the core sheet setting.

So, I think it might be when you set a default sheet other than what a premium module sets, have the character set to use the default sheet, and then disable and re-enable a module with its own sheets. You've set a default sheet but the Fantasy Companion overrides that (or the Horror Companion or Rifts) and that module becomes the new default sheet until you change the setting again. But it just overwrites your selected default if you disable and re-enable the module for any reason.

I'm going to have to test that next scenario, but I'm pretty sure that's what it's doing.

[fickle pecan]

That's definitely some funky handling on Core, then

Which is good to test & report — were in an unusual situation with the number of variant sheets and how people interact with them

[finite cipher]

yeah the number of sheets swade has is certainly exceptional lol

[harsh pebble]

Well... I set the default sheet to something other a MM premium module sheet and it didn't override it. So... that rules that out.

[finite cipher]

does that other sheet have the same config?

[harsh pebble]

Has the default: false config.

[finite cipher]

yeah I guess default false overrides everything else then

[harsh pebble]

Trying it between Fantasy Companion and Horror Companion now.

Nope. I tried a few different combinations. Now that I've explicitly set a default sheet from a character's Sheet settings, it's not messing with it.

[quick obsidian]

Is there a reason we can't just ask when the module is first run, in an adventurer importer type of way? "You got this new sheet available, want to default it or nah?"

[finite cipher]

we can do that

we'd need to add a way to do that, but it's possible

[harsh pebble]

So, if you set a default sheet in the Foundry's core settings, the modules will override that but not if you set the default sheet from a character. That character will be safe in general.

[quick obsidian]

if we do can probably ask a couple things, got this new benny want to use it? got this new card deck want to use it? etc.

[finite cipher]

some modules already come with a setup macro. We can probably make an API out of that

that would also benefit aces

see what I did there 🤣

okay enough joking around, making a "register a setting (the book kind, not the preferences kind)" API is probably a worthwhile endeavour

then all the modules can ditch the default: true

[finite cipher]

ngl the whole setting vs setting thing will never not confuse me

[tacit pagoda]

I try to add the word "configuration" to avoid confusion for that reason

[finite cipher]

I just wish foundry would call it game.preferences or game.configuration

that would make it a lot easier to distinguish

[tacit pagoda]

You mean you don't like sifting through game.settings.settings to see all the settings across core, system, and modules?

Might be a worthy feature request for v12

[finite cipher]

I think it's too late for v12 but might be a candidate for v13

either way swade is in a bit of a minority here since most games only have the one setting

sure technically dnd5e has more but it seems Wotc only cares about forgotten realms

[tacit pagoda]

Pathfinder supports different settings from 3pp, right? Also, Fate.

They might be able to slip it in as an alias

[finite cipher]

Pathfinder only really has Golarion. Starfinder is technically a different setting IIRC

Fate and GURPS do indeed have different settings, but are also in the minority

[tacit pagoda]

The setting, yes. But the game is open to other settings.

It doesn't hurt to ask is all I'm saying

[finite cipher]

Oh you mean you can technically write your own setting?

[finite cipher]

oh yeah I am considering it, but I am not hopeful

[tacit pagoda]

The system itself is OGC

[finite cipher]

true true. That said I was mostly counting official settings (sounds like a copout) because 3pp make any equation wonky

[tacit pagoda]

Well, Fate certainly falls into that category, and I think it's justifiable even for D&D (Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, et al)

[finite cipher]

tbh other than your book I've never actually seen any official lore stuff for anything other than Forgotten Realms

unless you count Spelljammer

"stuff" being books

[tacit pagoda]

There's an actual Eberron book

Rising from the Last War

[finite cipher]

ah nice

[tacit pagoda]

There's also Ravnica, Theros, Strixhaven, Ravenloft

[finite cipher]

wait ravnica exists outside MTG?

TIL

[tacit pagoda]

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources

Dragonlance is available through an adventure, too.

[finite cipher]

nice

maybe that will give us a chance to help the confusion then 😄

[tacit pagoda]

Got a response regarding the default sheets. They're going to remain defaulted.

Reasons:

1. It is easy to change the default sheet.
2. Inexperienced users would not know the setting/companion provides a custom sheet, thus hiding it deprives them of a potential feature.

[finite cipher]

I see

[tacit pagoda]

I responded with:

Perhaps the modules could prompt with an opportunity to set the default sheets when it's first loaded instead of doing it automatically?