KevEnder

[eager minnow]

Oh just keep in mind you dont want to use cht

Will probably reduce flow at that length

[tawny lark]

ofc

[eager minnow]

The guy I got my hotend from is experimenting with some internal geometry 3d printed nozzles

Not cheap but they are good

I should cnc a hotend that uses these

[tawny lark]

eeeeh I wouldnt slm a nozzle

slm blocks already sus enough

[eager minnow]

Why not?

[tawny lark]

imagine the longass tap you need for that

[tawny lark]

rough

[eager minnow]

Hmmm my m6 hand tap may be close

But hand tapping a 3 inch hole is 😭

[tawny lark]

one sus thing that ill be doing is using a 12v heater at 24v tho

[eager minnow]

He polishes and threads them after

[tawny lark]

should be fine if I limit it in klipper so that it's only 150w or something

[eager minnow]

Hence the price being 25 dollars

[eager minnow]

Why?

[tawny lark]

the supervolcano block comes with one

[eager minnow]

Why not just buy a 24v one😭😭😭

They cost 3 dollars

[tawny lark]

24v one is only 80w

12v one is 320w

[eager minnow]

320w😐

In a 45mm cartrage is terrifying

[tawny lark]

can always pwm it down

it's perfect. I can adjust the watts that I want

[eager minnow]

Tru

[surreal briar]

still gonna be 320W

that's gonna melt for sure if it runs away

[tawny lark]

I could put in a fuse, but still not super ideal

[woven brook]

On this hotend you have enough room for a thermal fuse finding a 550ºC fuse though

[tawny lark]

Brass so 350 would suffice and I can also put it on the heatsink not the block and use a lower temp fuse

A fuse fuse could cut power if it were to ever runaway and do more than the duty cycle limit

[surreal briar]

just get a 40w-50w cart

still safer

[tawny lark]

I can't find supervolcano carts

Or is 80w really enough?

[rain bone]

People ran that in the past to reach 100mm³/s

[tawny lark]

Also if I do make this, I'll probably have to cover the arms with a sock and IDK how good that would be for it

[rain bone]

Get a draftshield printed

[tawny lark]

I'll run some shitty sims to see how arm length affects the rigidity

[tawny lark]

Good idea

I can also probably just use a sock on the lower part only too

[rain bone]

And boom we are back at chube looking designs

[tawny lark]

How is this chube looking in any way

[rain bone]

Add a draftshield

Its just what it is, there are only a few efficent designs for certain applications

[tawny lark]

Tbf, draft shield has been around for much longer than chube

Alright. I'll just get the 80w 24v and pray that it's enough then

[rain bone]

Yea, but its the one with the most pronounced one

[surreal briar]

yeah a shield is what I'd do, make it dual shear by supporting the bottom to the ducts like monolith

[tawny lark]

SLM shield huh

Guess it's time to build a tool head around this monster

[rain bone]

Worst case run it at 48v

[tawny lark]

True, I could switch to 48v on my main printer

Then I'll be able to run leadshines

Looks like I've got a lot of CAD work to do

Why don't people use these again?

[rain bone]

Heat

Also cable management

And mounting

[tawny lark]

Just leave it outside

And I've never had to actively cool a laptop charger before either

And motors don't really pull that much power

[surreal briar]

don't forget the supervolc block is really heavy

I wanted to replace it because it's basically not usable without bottom support

you can shave off the sides and therm port but even then, you'd need to shave a lot off

chubeify it

[tawny lark]

100g for the hotend alone is.... not great

[surreal briar]

ye I had like 120g

if you can turn it down on a lathe that's great

[tawny lark]

I dont think a lathe is gonna do much here

[surreal briar]

mill, etc

angle grinder is not the best tool for this job

(from experience)

[tawny lark]

goddammit. once i add the bottom support it's just gonna be chube

[surreal briar]

[tawny lark]

maybe it would be a better idea to make my own block from scratch and use those flat ceramic heaters

at the very least it would be a lot lighter

[surreal briar]

a lot more expensive as well

[tawny lark]

alright

[tawny lark]

honestly not really

the supervolc block is 20 bucks for me

[tawny lark]

forgot to include the heater in the weight. final weigh in about this much with the lightening

[surreal briar]

hmm, not bad

definitely better than what it was

[tawny lark]

now i just gotta make a toolhead for it

i think im gonna go cpap this time around

[tawny lark]

@surreal briar

I'm giving it 24v and 5v but it keeps shutting off after a second 😭

@coral stone any ideas?

[surreal briar]

very strange

I never had that

what if you multi it out? does it still gets power?

[tawny lark]

Multi?

[surreal briar]

Multimeter

[tawny lark]

Mm gimme a sec

[surreal briar]

measure the voltage on the Vin and Pwm after it stops

maybe it's not the fan but whatever it's hooked up to

[tawny lark]

huh interesting

the 24v drops down to 5v when i connect it

power supply issue?

[surreal briar]

could be

it draws like 2 amps

[surreal briar]

I wish I was smart enough to understand what this means

is it the voltage dropping because the amps going up for some reason?

no clue honestly

[tawny lark]

IT WAS A POWER SUPPLY ISSUE THIS WHOLE TIME

plugged it into my meanwell and it's completely fine

Holy fuck this thing BLOWS

[rain bone]

Probably the overcurrent protection kicking in

[tawny lark]

The power supply was 350w tho

Oooooh right

[rain bone]

If the draw has a huge inrush current spike it can still trip it

[tawny lark]

Inrush

[surreal briar]

ye it's nice

the most air you get for $5

[tawny lark]

It's 15 in US😭

[surreal briar]

oh, oof

[tawny lark]

Ooh it went down to 10

[tawny lark]

But yeah. It fkn hurts

Left is Thailand, right is US

[surreal briar]

still not the worst

[coral stone]

About the same here

[surreal briar]

https://a.aliexpress.com/_Ex8sO9a

you can get them way cheaper

[coral stone]

Oh, nice, $8, thanks

[tawny lark]

once I bring it the duct it should be pretty close to perfect

[eager minnow]

I dont run out of power limiting mine to 150w

Hit heat transfer limit first smh

[covert torrent]

Bro did U see my ver

[tawny lark]

I vaguely remember

[thorn wind]

How did you make the belt in onshape?

[tawny lark]

belt featurescript

[thorn wind]

oh dang completely forgot about those...huh I'll have to take a look. thanks!

[tawny lark]

[covert torrent]

Send Ur hotend to Burgo server lol

[wide skiff]

Please please please please please please please please please start selling this 🙏

I'd pay triple what it costs to make

KanFlow 🙏

[languid lava]

Call it the Kannon

Kanin, Cannon, Kannon

Or Kannin

[tawny lark]

Id probably have to swap out the heatsink for something else bc it's using a Tz v6 heatsink right now and you can't buy those separate but I'm not opposed if you really want one lol

[wide skiff]

You want Kanin to call his hotend Kanin?

[languid lava]

Yes precisely

https://tenor.com/view/stickman-fire-writing-gif-2048052287611259724

[kindred onyx]

plastic ducts or slm?

[tawny lark]

Plastic

Probably gonna do PPS

[kindred onyx]

and the brace?

[tawny lark]

PET-CF ducts sound like a pain to anneal

[tawny lark]

SLM

[kindred onyx]

how worried are you about the brace melting the ducts

[tawny lark]

Titanium brace

[tawny lark]

Not very worried

[chrome widget]

Oh hey it’s like a more well thought out version of what I came up with

The idea of bracing the end

[wide skiff]

👀

show

[surreal briar]

not too bad

at least the ufonator went pretty easily

[tawny lark]

What temps

[surreal briar]

110C for like 4 hours after the sand got up to temp

then I redesigned the duct before it even got on the printer

[tawny lark]

After looking around all over AliExpress, the cheapest, most viable heatsink for modding came out to be the Goliath heatsink

These also take standard chimera heatbreak

[surreal briar]

kinda expensive for what it is

can't you just use those v6 ones?

[tawny lark]

They don't have any meat on the bottom for me to tap into

[surreal briar]

you can go through multiple fins

[tawny lark]

I mean tapping from the side

[surreal briar]

cute

[tawny lark]

Honestly, maybe I'm better off machining my own heatsink on the lathe

[surreal briar]

[tawny lark]

Hmmmmm

Hmmmmmmmmm

I'm surprised the fins don't just deflect

[surreal briar]

huh

[tawny lark]

Whoa that's super compact

[surreal briar]

I'm not hating yeah

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005064741995.html

[tawny lark]

Huh it's for a beltprinter

[tawny lark]

It's got extra mounting points on the bottom too. That's pretty nice

Oh wait NVM

That's an adapter plate

[eager minnow]

https://www.causalitymfg.com/store/p/tri-lobe-v2-high-flow-nozzles-coming-soon

Between versions rn

[tawny lark]

the goliath version does look better

but idk about that heatsink. it's so small

[languid lava]

I would be slightly worried about heat creep but it doesn’t seem like it has much issue normally anyways

[surreal briar]

and?

[tawny lark]

Heatceeep

[surreal briar]

not a problem with a good heatbreak

you could even go conduction

or those k1 watercool sinks and just push some air through it

[tawny lark]

Throwing a titanium heatbreak on there and praying that it's good nuff

[wide skiff]

I've seen that before! I didn't know they were making a V2 though. Looks nice.

[eager minnow]

ye, the flow studies are cool on it

[tawny lark]

Does it fuck up PA?

[eager minnow]

Na

[tawny lark]

Ik some people say CHT fucks up PA but I don't see it in my own tests

[eager minnow]

It basically just forces better contact with melting surfaces

To my understanding

[tawny lark]

Got any pics of the nozzle geometry?

The website doesn't show anything

[eager minnow]

Ill see if I can find

[eager minnow]

No luck, but imagine a cht without the middle bit

[tawny lark]

So like a bozzle

[eager minnow]

So it has little teeth that are closer to the middle of the filament path

[eager minnow]

Except there is no part that splits the flow

As that is patented

So it doesnt flow as well as a cht or bozzle

But it is also less friction and obstruction

[tawny lark]

Bozzle doesn't split the flow

[eager minnow]

So like a middle ground

[eager minnow]

Oh youre right mhm

Yes essentially a bozzle

But I think the overall filament path is larger

While the teeth go in the same amount

Idk he posted a ton of pics of his products in monikas discord and then he left and all of his stuff got deleted

Ah

Found a very prototype from like a year and a half ago

So basically a bozzle that costs 1/4 the money

[unique halo]

Its the reverse cht

[tawny lark]

But also not TC

Great price tho

Idk how I feel about the nozzles being SLM tho, and how are they doing the tip insert

Idk if it makes much sense to get those when the triangle labs HS insert CHT volcano is 13 bucks

But I also recognize that I'm just a hater in general about that guy's stuff

[eager minnow]

Its a different market, its for real high flow, where resistance matters just as much as heat transfer

It's hard to say tho since I haven't tried one

[tawny lark]

If you want real high flow just add more melt zone 🤣

And the flow out of the trianglelabs nozzle is pretty real

[rain bone]

i hope they get them flow polished, if not you can buy one for each material you print

[tawny lark]

[rain bone]

will help if the orange part doesnt melt

[tawny lark]

got these peek spacers

[rain bone]

could work if the orange part can deal with the heat that gets conducted by the screws

[tawny lark]

orange part should be fine. probably gonna be PPS-CF

[tawny lark]

this should be a lot better

have to balance between the brace not being effective and the orange melting

[tawny lark]

@surreal briar got any ducts you can recommend?

Something that would fit here

Otherwise I'll just do the basic ducts

[surreal briar]

I've only been using Rocksalts ducts

you could make them fit

but pretty hard with the back hotend support

[tawny lark]

wdy think

[drowsy haven]

It looks like it's going to cool down the nozzle a ton

If you add some sort of nozzle shield would be fine, but probably should cfd to check

[tawny lark]

might not look like it but it's aiming right under the nozzle. I might do an SLM convection shield tho

[drowsy haven]

Might be the angle

[surreal briar]

looks pretty cool

[tawny lark]

I think i just have to redo this part of the duct

I really dont like how sharp the angle is

[surreal briar]

best you could do is probably go with sherpa instead

[tawny lark]

why

[surreal briar]

easier to duct around

or make it breakneck style with microbowden

[tawny lark]

honestly, not really any easier or harder

[tawny lark]

I did consider that, but it's more of a pain in the ass

slightly better

im just gonna try printing it out and see

[tawny lark]

interesting

[exotic pier]

pretty

[thorn wind]

Renovic's toolhead?

[drowsy haven]

Lol that's my toolhead

I'm redoing the bracing and hotend so the braces are in the xy plane for better rigidity

[surreal briar]

make that bottom section removable for easier nozzle changes

[drowsy haven]

Yeah I'm also doing that

[tawny lark]

@surreal briar do you have ufonator with non fucked up geometry?

[surreal briar]

hmm?

it's fine for me

[tawny lark]

maybe ill try import it again

ok so it was just onshape throwing a hissy fit

it's fine in fusion

[tawny lark]

it works after I export it out of fusion and into onshape again

[surreal briar]

nice

that works

[chilly halo]

psst kevin u want my silly motors?

[wide skiff]

@tawny lark

[tawny lark]

Oh yeah. And I can return them during rmrrf

[chilly halo]

true

[kindred onyx]

idk if this has been addressed before
but the belt clamp on github doesnt fit due to interfering with the rail carriage (in my case at least)
mostly leaving this here for myself if i ever need to reprint 😂

[eager minnow]

Are you going?

[tawny lark]

most likely

[tawny lark]

have you tried the one in the onshape?

[kindred onyx]

maybe? idk maybe not

[eager minnow]

Dang, maybe ill have to go

I think its at a time that works well for me

[eager minnow]

@tawny lark you seen the new sub 1 min benchy?

[tawny lark]

nope

im so cooked

I might throw in the towel tbh

[kindred onyx]

https://klipy.com/gifs/shocked-emoji-shocked-computer-meme

[eager minnow]

The vid seems a little suspicious but ye, 54 sec on a 100

[eager minnow]

Why you cooked? Can still try for sub 1 even if you dont catch up

[kindred onyx]

it is what it is, i do wanna see his gcode tho

[tawny lark]

I dont wanna do this shit anymore 😭 I just wanna idex

I do have a theory tho. kinda wanna roll back klipper to last year

idk why im not hitting those same accels anymore and that't the only thing i can think of

[eager minnow]

On the 2004s?

Or the leadshines, bc the accel on them suck

[tawny lark]

2004

the leadshines were actually pretty promising

[eager minnow]

They just do some crazy speed, like I said i ran a 2000/100k once

[strange robin]

Let’s see it

[tawny lark]

I tried to let the motors run no load and it couldnt do 2000/100k reliably for some reason

[eager minnow]

Odd, I will need to get some new gates belts and I can try again, i had to do an emergency repair with some no name and im worried they will snap🤣

I only did a couple tests at that speed bc normally we want high accel high speed but it could be better with that much speed

[tawny lark]

I had powge belts on mine for the longest time bc i ran out of gates 🤣

[eager minnow]

Since i dont have endstops I accidentally hit the home x/y button and it breaks the belts

4wd moment

[drowsy haven]

why no endstops?

[woven brook]

"Where we go, we need no endstops "

[eager minnow]

They break, the 4 steppers dont talk fast enough and it would stop a little too slow every time and slowly smashed the button

[drowsy haven]

so how do you home?

and if you have an arm on the endstop it has a bit of overtravel after it clicks

like i doubt 4wd is so much worse than 2wd that it breaks your endstops

[tawny lark]

My pet theory is they forgot to put ^ on the end stop pin

[eager minnow]

SET_KINEMATIC_POSITION

[drowsy haven]

bruh what

[eager minnow]

Tbh idk why it's broke, but the y switch broke 2 times and each time it would also snap the belts

[drowsy haven]

at that point id just switch back to 2WD drive if you cant even home normally

[tawny lark]

Same. Only bc I couldn't get sensorless to play ball with 2160

[eager minnow]

I just put the bed and toolhead at 0 and run the macro, actually much faster than homing

[eager minnow]

Oh it could have been chamber temps

I do feel like it only started having issues after I started heating it

[eager minnow]

Yea sensorless almost works with 2wd and high amps, 4wd i could only get working on 1 sensitivity and it worked half the time, got mad and gave up

[woven brook]

Might wanna slow down homing speed?

[coral stone]

Well, then use endstops with overtravel

[covert torrent]

@tawny lark lowkey man we need to update the cad

like

😭

[tawny lark]

I'm almost done making all the versions

But yeah

[thorn wind]

Do you have an onshape link/step file for the proxtruder?

Only been able to find it without gears

[tawny lark]

yes actually

[tawny lark]

oh yeah. that file doesnt have gears

cant be arsed to assemble and there's 4 different versions

which each version having 4 different coupler types

[thorn wind]

Yeah I know

[thorn wind]

Did you add the gears yourself or?

[tawny lark]

here's the one in that screenshot if you want

[thorn wind]

Thanks!

Also for the materials for the COM, did you like assign materials individually for each part of the extruder or just 39 g or whatever the protoxtruder weighs to the whole thing?

[tawny lark]

individually

didnt take very long

there's like, 4 different materials

i did define a custom material I called motor tho

for the stepper

[thorn wind]

Hmm ok. I'll have to see what exactly each part weighs then...I'll figure it out. This is the protoxdruder 2.0, right?

[tawny lark]

idk the versions. it's my modified version

[thorn wind]

Modified? What was there even left to modify lol

[tawny lark]

the stock bearings are shit

it will wear down on you in a month

itll still print afterwards, but itll also have horrible backlash

i swapped it in with a larger bearing and it's been going strong for the past year or so

[thorn wind]

Thought nhchiu said something about better ball bearings in the 2.0

Do you have the HGX or HGX 2.0?

[tawny lark]

hgx

2.0 is worse

regular hgx uses needle bearings in the gears

[thorn wind]

Really? Huh good to know.

[tawny lark]

2.0 swaps in those same tiny bearings that like to break instead of the needle bearings

but yeah. most important thing is large bearings on the reduction gear

[thorn wind]

So what hardware are you using for your modified version then?

Wouldn't it just be easier to go with a Sherpa mini?

[tawny lark]

683 instead of mr63

[tawny lark]

genuine bmg gears are expensive, clone bmg gears are a shitshow

[thorn wind]

Yeah fair

[tawny lark]

https://cad.onshape.com/documents/2fc810dbd441bb18aa205d5c/w/256dd11f3d19b435e58ae2d4/e/916ade109da54b60819e6bf2

here's the onshape with all the modified versions

[thorn wind]

Thanks!

I guess I'll use your version then, thanks for all the info

[tawny lark]

my version also has a hole for a third bolt in the back

increases rigidity by a LOT

[thorn wind]

Nice!

[chrome widget]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbLPCK5fKhc

what the hell

[covert torrent]

is he running fuckall tension now?

[exotic pier]

he’s speeding up videos apparently

[covert torrent]

no reason to no?

[exotic pier]

idk

someone annex discord said it was faked

[surreal briar]

it doesn't sound normal

[languid lava]

The skepticism I have mainly comes down to the sheer amount of plastic you have to push to get that extrusion and that single direct extruder being questionable for the job

And secondly whether that hotend can actually melt all of the plastic

[exotic pier]

he’s using pre heated 2.85 pla

afaik

[tawny lark]

pre heating is BS. same thing as printing out of a dryer

[exotic pier]

that’s what he’s doing

[languid lava]

Supposedly

[exotic pier]

supposedly

[tawny lark]

not that it's a bad thing, just doesnt make it appreciably easier to melt the filament

[exotic pier]

yeah

[tawny lark]

not with PLA anyways

[exotic pier]

but also the hotend is fucking massive

[tawny lark]

is it tho?

[exotic pier]

i mean

[tawny lark]

looks around supervolcano length

[languid lava]

I mean has anybody looked at it frame by frame to tell if there’s added or missing frames. Cause like it’s uploaded at 60FPS so you could easily just look at every frame

[tawny lark]

supervolcano can do ~100 cubic

[rain bone]

preheating is a thing, but for other reasons. usually done on stuff with a high amount of fiber filling so it not crumbles inside the reverse bowden tube
for the printing stuff, it probably cools down enough on its way to the extruder to not see a large effect of preheating, considering the length of the tube he runs

[exotic pier]

he’s doing double that

[tawny lark]

afaik it's almost confirmed to be sped up

[exotic pier]

somehow

[languid lava]

I mean I’m not surprised but just didn’t know if anybody had done that method to come to that conclusion

[tawny lark]

no need to look frame by frame

[kindred onyx]

yeah ive seen some crazy nerds doing audio analysis and whatnot

[languid lava]

I mean I just wonder what it takes to be somebody that already gets criticized pretty regularly to then come around and say things like “I learned my lesson about snapped shafts” while being heavily investigated for a possible fake record

[tawny lark]

the sound of the cpap spooling up and down is oddly fast, the clock timer should update every 2 frames yet it updates every frame, the audio seems to be tampered with, etc

[languid lava]

Is the timer supposed to operate at 30hz?

[tawny lark]

yeah

[languid lava]

Ah damn

[tawny lark]

we might also be able to measure how fast the things in the video drop back down when they jolt if they jolt hard enough

[languid lava]

If it got enough vertical movement you could find gravity yeah

[tawny lark]

s=1/2at^2

[tawny lark]

unless he makes another video i think it's pretty safe to say that it is sus

[languid lava]

I think that something for validation should be like having something moving in the background to validate that it’s in real time. What that thing would be I’m not sure

[tawny lark]

the timer thing is pretty damning evidence

[tawny lark]

analog clock

much harder to trick that

or casio watch or something

[languid lava]

Wouldn’t be hard to swap a single gear out to cut it in half

[tawny lark]

mmm true

[languid lava]

We do in fact have printers

[tawny lark]

pendulum clock

[languid lava]

That can print gears

[tawny lark]

cant fuck a pendulum

or can you

[exotic pier]

lmao

[exotic pier]

u could go to saturn or smth

[languid lava]

Having the camera move in some way is also really hard to fake

[kindred onyx]

hourglass

[exotic pier]

yeah

[tawny lark]

atomic clock 🤣

[exotic pier]

we know how sandy sand is

[languid lava]

I mean I could easily just use a 30 second glass and call it a minute glass

That exists

[tawny lark]

it would fall fast

[languid lava]

Or vice versa

[kindred onyx]

yeha but you gotta prove it

or

hold on

[languid lava]

Fair

Gravity

[kindred onyx]

you stream it

[exotic pier]

true

can’t speed up a live replay

[tawny lark]

pre recorded

[languid lava]

Show a video feed of the audio being recording in frame lol

[tawny lark]

ill be happy if he does another video with a grandfather clock in the background 🤣

[exotic pier]

why do stupid ppl need to fuck everything up

[surreal briar]

not on 0.4

[kindred onyx]

mandatory chat interaction

[languid lava]

Put some random animal in view of the camera

They are a form of randomness

And movements will look odd if sped up

Just another dumb idea lol

[exotic pier]

get a homeless cat off the street

[surreal briar]

don't wanna witch hunt but idk, the cpap, stepper sounds, suspiciously obstructed system clock makes it all very weird

[tawny lark]

man, this whole incident just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth

the competition is supposed to be good fun

in good spirits

[kindred onyx]

typical T250 fashion

[languid lava]

Well since the concept of records have existed people have had a desire to take them even through illegitimate means

[tawny lark]

oh yeah I didnt even notice the obstructed system clock

[languid lava]

Yeah that would be pretty damning if it flipped over an additional minute

You wouldn’t be able to stop it from doing that with how long the video is

But yeah I don’t enjoy having to scrutinize these things. Stuff like them never showing their hands in the video

Hiding stuff seemingly intentionally

If they showed their hands to press the space bar to pause or something that would have at least been something

[tawny lark]

also, proof by just look at it

[languid lava]

Yeah like there’s no way a machine moving that insanely fast is shaking that little

Unless that thing is bolted to the damn table

[tawny lark]

cool toolhead tho. very lightweight

[languid lava]

It also wouldn’t have been hard for him to export the video in 30FPS then the timer would have at least been less obvious unless there was a desync

[tawny lark]

i think the one i made for hypercam ended up being ~400g

[languid lava]

I just miss records like Monika’s where there’s just so much stuff happening in the video that it would be impossible to fake

The camera is moving everywhere, it’s being timed with a freaking steam deck, there’s stuff happening that just makes it so clear that it’s real

[tawny lark]

iirc on mine the filament was getting tangled and I had to move in to adjust it midway

[exotic pier]

i’m trying not too be biased but it just doesn’t look natural

[languid lava]

Well that’s the first obvious point of suspicion is “how do you make it twice as fast as anything from before Roetz or even anything you’d done previously and make it look THAT effortless”

[tawny lark]

when the video first came out it LOOKED very suspect but I really didnt wanna start pointing fingers

but with the new evidence....

[languid lava]

Yeah I sided with it being legitimate

Cause I felt like there was enough shown and stuff like frame-by-frame being possible

But now people with far more willingness to poke and prod at people on the internet have brought things to light

And I’m still willing to say innocent till proven guilty

[rain bone]

welcome to humanity, once something gets competitive some people try everything to be ontop

[coral stone]

On a quartz watch? These things are tiny, can't be printed, commonly aren't even standardized, you can't even separate the gear from the shaft in many cases. Would be easier to mod electrically than mechanically, I feel

[coral stone]

Just change the counterweight mass

[tawny lark]

Isn't it only dependant on the length of the string

[drowsy haven]

yeah you would need to change the length of the pendulum which would be pretty noticable

[tawny lark]

Or the gravity of the room 🤣

[drowsy haven]

true

just warp space time casually

[rain bone]

if it has more or less mass the rest of the mechanism that is tuned to it will work slightly faster or slower depending on how much weight is altered

[coral stone]

Sorry

[languid lava]

I meant like in response to just like putting a cheap analog clock in the background

Yeah a proper analog watch would be a different situation

[coral stone]

I'm not talking about a proper analog watch, just a cheap quartz wristwatch

[wide skiff]

@tawny lark One of the guys I met in Matts server while we were shitting on his printer said you should repack your extruder for more rigidity. Not sure if that makes any sense, but I hope that helps.

[tawny lark]

I know what they're talking about and I don't need the repack

It's already rigid enough as-is with the third bolt mounting

I also know how to do it if I want to

But thanks

[tawny lark]

Just bring him here

I can't be bothered with this telephone game 😭

[wide skiff]

I already invited him 😭

[distant relic]

Hello Kevin

[wide skiff]

Hi hank

[tawny lark]

What toolhead are we even talking about here

Bc there's my main printer that I use daily and theres the BSO one

[distant relic]

Random prototype picture that was posted somewhere

[wide skiff]

one sec

i posted that one

[tawny lark]

COM actually fairly decent

[distant relic]

I didn’t want to come in here to pick on you or anything

[tawny lark]

Nonono

I absolutely welcome the discussion

[wide skiff]

Kevins chill

[distant relic]

That is still pretty far off ideal

[tawny lark]

Yeah, my rod one is much better

[distant relic]

With the gantry setup you have you will want the com .7mm in front of the bearing contact

[tawny lark]

If I want the com on this one to be better I've basically gotta lower the hotend or increase the mass of the hotend, which is gonna eat up more of my build volume

It's a compromise

[distant relic]

It mostly has to be moved farther back. You aren’t that far away in z

[tawny lark]

I don't think it matters much in Y

It matters a lot more in Z

[distant relic]

I have not done much outside of corexy

[tawny lark]

Yep. Bedslinger is different

[distant relic]

Y matters a lot more on a corexy machine

[distant relic]

Are you going to do rods on your ender 3?

[tawny lark]

Nah. That's a toolhead I made for a sovol

It's fkn beautiful

The COM is right where the belt is pulling

It's a bit off in Y but Y matters a lot less here

Especially on the rod printer with lm10luu bearings

[distant relic]

Bedslingers are a lot simpler

[tawny lark]

For corexy rods id definitely stagger the rods

Makes it a lot easier to get good com

[distant relic]

Have you taken a look at other toolheads that run supervolcano sized hotends?

[tawny lark]

For corexy or bedslingers

I haven't seen many rod based toolheads in general tbh

[distant relic]

Just for corexy. I am out of the loop for bedslinger stuff

[distant relic]

Oh not for rods

Rods are old school

[tawny lark]

Honestly, I'm just out of the loop in general

[tawny lark]

I've seen a couple here and there yeah

Longass hotends make it a lot easier to design toolheads

[distant relic]

Dk’s toolhead, monolith and renovic’s toolhead are all using supervolcano length integrated hotends to name a few

[tawny lark]

For direct drive the extruder is so heavy that you gotta find a way to offset that somehow

[distant relic]

Yeah

[tawny lark]

Having a long hot end helps a ton

[tawny lark]

Yeah I've seen those

They're nice

[distant relic]

I run chube on most of my nicer toolheads

[tawny lark]

Dunno how I feel about SLM blocks tho

[distant relic]

Yeah i am not a fan unless you are shelling out the money for a copper slm block with custom preheat pockets

A copper block is expensive though because of the refractive index

Steel takes too long to heat soak and aluminum is just a waste

[tawny lark]

I've thought about moving where the belt connects to the toolhead from under the extrusion to the front, kinda like how a corexy does it

Would have the belts pulling more directly on the com

[distant relic]

Yeah I don’t know how a lot of the bedslinger stuff works. I have been all corexy since 2020

[tawny lark]

I also don't know how other bedslinger people do it either bc the only other person I really talk to that does this kind of stuff is LH of lh stinger fame

[distant relic]

Yeah the lh stinger is really cool

[tawny lark]

It's kinda funny how often I make things and it turns out I just did what the stinger does but in a worse way

[distant relic]

Bedslingers are cheap and easy to modify to go fast because of the belt paths. I don’t see a ton of people taking it seriously though

[tawny lark]

That machine is so well thought out it's amazing

[distant relic]

I would like to build an awd stinger at some point but i am afraid I would never use it

I don’t print a whole lot of pla and if i do it is going to be something huge

[tawny lark]

Yeah.... I just yolo things open air 😭

I'm building a high temp but that thing is still waiting for parts

[distant relic]

What temp? 160?

[tawny lark]

140

I'd need bellows above that

[distant relic]

140 without bellows will be interesting. You will definitely need heatbrake water cooling

[tawny lark]

Eeeh I have an idea for cross gantry no bellows high temp but thats for another time

[tawny lark]

Oh yeah. Watercooled hotends

[distant relic]

Idex?

[tawny lark]

Got these things

[tawny lark]

Yep

Dual markforged

[distant relic]

What are you doing for linear bearings and everything at 140c?

[tawny lark]

It's nice bc I don't have to do a z adjustment thing

[distant relic]

That is convenient

[tawny lark]

Brass-graphite bearings and disposable flanged bearing stack idlers for now

[distant relic]

I assume motors are outside of the chamber

[tawny lark]

I'll replace em with high temp bearings when I've solidified everything, but RN I'm still in the prototyping phase

[tawny lark]

Motor inside but watercooled

It's a very scuffed build

[distant relic]

This will be a very weird setup

[tawny lark]

Im working out of the corpse of a qidi xplus3

[distant relic]

What will you be doing for the frame?

[tawny lark]

Nothing. I'm stuffing the sides with ceramic wool insulation and keeping the frame

Sanchez did that and took it to 160 no problem

[distant relic]

Dual markforged with y assist?

[tawny lark]

Yeah

[distant relic]

I have never seen anyone do a build with this style

[tawny lark]

It's a scuffed super budget high temp build. Gonna be fun when it gets up n running

[distant relic]

I want to eventually do a 220c build but it isn’t really worth it because we run 200c machines all day at work and i can always ask the printer guys to print something for me

Sadly we don’t really run aluminum in our slm printers so slm prototypes will continue to be not very cheap

[distant relic]

It will definitely be cool to see

[tawny lark]

I think so far I'm down ~700 on this build

[distant relic]

I don’t see many budget high temp printers that are not perpetually broken

[distant relic]

You are better than me lol. I have a problem with scope creep. The glass on my toolchanger that i am building was nearly triple that

[tawny lark]

I can't really scope creep much bc I'm broke as hell

[distant relic]

You are still doing better than matt’s printer lol

[tawny lark]

When I do scope creep, I always end up having to scrap it and scale back

Don't think I've shown u yet but this is the high speed one

Built out of shit I have lying around

[distant relic]

I am getting old and i am starting to struggle with moving stuff now that i am stuck with a cane. Right now i need to mill my side panels but they are 50kg each and i am struggling to get them in my truck and unload them at work to get milled

[distant relic]

Looks pretty similar to the stinger

[tawny lark]

Stole the tensioner and back aux fan from the stinger

Otherwise it's essentially the sock ender 3 setup but AWD

And rails

[distant relic]

Basically a mini stinger with a different toolhead and a lot of other mods

What is the plan for the world record hotend? You might be able to beat roetz if he keeps tinkering with his printer

[tawny lark]

Lancer long bc that's the longest functioning hotend that I have right now

[distant relic]

I don’t see minuteman being beatable once he has settings dialed though

[tawny lark]

No way in hell yeah

I'm planning to just let it underextrude 😅

[distant relic]

Too bad they doubled the price of the lancer long. I wanted to use it for my budget ender 5 that i was trying to keep under 100$

[tawny lark]

I don't really wanna put much money in this printer bc I'm not really that invested in the project anyways

[tawny lark]

Lancer long is pretty bad anyways

[tawny lark]

You should do this

[distant relic]

Is that supervolcano with a dragon heatsink?

[tawny lark]

Goliath heatsink but yeah

[distant relic]

Looks similar to how luke is doing pika

I have a bunch of random hotends laying around but i like to keep the theoretical budget of the ender at under 100 in mods

[tawny lark]

It kinda looks like if a chube fucked a v9.2

[distant relic]

I have a lot of chubes

[tawny lark]

Honestly, id just use whatever hotend you have or a Tz v6

I'm currently running a Tz v6 right now

It's great

[distant relic]

Yeah i have a tz v6 right now

It is working

I want the ability to run a bigger nozzle though (who am i kidding i used this ender like twice)

[tawny lark]

With doubled up heaters and a melt zone extender, here's the flow I'm getting out of it

[tawny lark]

You can use any old v6 nozzle with it btw

It just extends down 2mm more

[distant relic]

Oh lol I thought it was fin size for some reason

I guess it is called tzv6 for a reason

[distant relic]

What was the layer adhesion like though?

[tawny lark]

I've never had any issues with layer adhesion but idk how I'd quantify it

I could setup an izod rig pretty easily....

[distant relic]

Mpa of layer adhesion but it is easier to just test by printing out a bunch of tabs and manually snapping them

[tawny lark]

How would I measure that

[distant relic]

I have a UTM in my garage

[tawny lark]

Damn. Nice

[distant relic]

A utm or whatever the contraptions that the youtubers use

[tawny lark]

https://tenor.com/view/broke-no-cash-gif-25565154

[distant relic]

I am slowly accumulating a lot of random crap

[distant relic]

Idk the diy utm stuff looked really cheap

[tawny lark]

But yeah, I could setup an Izod impact strength thing

[distant relic]

That would work

[tawny lark]

I'll look into it

It would be nice to have something to test how well the high temp printer is doing and compare materials

A utm and Izod setup would be sweet

[distant relic]

Yeah

I need to make an ISO 75 hdt tester

I have 2 vacuum ovens now so I can free up a bit of oven space

I saw scarecrow was making one

[tawny lark]

Nice

[tawny lark]

should be under $100 in additional parts to make something like this....

I already got extrusion, motor, and driver

[coral stone]

After reading the standards UTMs have to follow, I'm scared

[covert torrent]

@distant relic have you seen the qidi thats printing tpi

[tawny lark]

are hardware store threaded rods anywhere in that standard

[coral stone]

I mean, the load cell won't hit the spec. But at least you don't have elongation measurement at all
But you will hit the spec regarding motion speed uniformity, even with all thread

[tawny lark]

what about like this

I should probably move this to a new project post

[coral stone]

Extensometers are cool, but haven't seen one DIYable

My idea was to do DIC

[distant relic]

I have not

[distant relic]

I doubt it needs to be perfect for this. If all else fails spend a grand or so on a used one

[surreal briar]

waffle

[tawny lark]

I wonder if anyone would be willing to trade me some TPI for a 9085

[coral stone]

Nice

[tawny lark]

doing X rn. hope it's at least half as good

[exotic pier]

jesus fucking crist

that in the stock bed and carriage right?

[tawny lark]

absolutely the fuck not

it's the fast one

the small bed

[exotic pier]

oh

yeah ok that makes more sense

still really nice

[tawny lark]

X is looking a little cooked

(it's still calculating)

kinda cooked but ok

[tawny lark]

WHOOOW IM BACK TO MILLION ACCEL

something about kalico in early january 2025 is different

Proceeds to immediately rip toolhead in half

Guess that's all for tonight

Might design a new supervolcano toolhead

We are so not back

[woven brook]

bolts look like eyes

😄

oh NOW I see the problem 😄

[rain bone]

sheared nicely along the layerlines from how it looks

should have added a bolt there to reinforce it

[rain bone]

so it cracked down there too

fun stuff

[tawny lark]

Just bad design

[kindred onyx]

what did you print it out of

[tawny lark]

PC-CF

Very stiff

Very shatter

[rain bone]

time to ask jlc to make it suck less

[kindred onyx]

damn yeah

[tawny lark]

I'm probably gonna design a supervolcano toolhead for it

Ditch this hotend and toolhead design

[rain bone]

thats the cycle of going fast, finding the weak links and fixing them

[tawny lark]

Tbf, it wouldn't be an issue if it didn't smack the end at mach fuck

[rain bone]

like crashing into the endstop?

[tawny lark]

I printed an end block thingy to stop it from coming off the rails, but yeah

I overdid it and it crashed very hard

[rain bone]

considered to move the machine limit away from the endstops?

so it only goes out of bounds for homing?

[tawny lark]

It doesn't home

It sets kinematic position

[rain bone]

thats even more cursed and prone to random stuff breaking

[tawny lark]

The limits are already away from the end block thingies

I just ran it too hard and it skipped a lot

[tawny lark]

I forgot to add switches to the cad and 5160 don't like sensorless

[rain bone]

5160 do sensorless just fine, did that on my K3 before switching to duet with the 2160s

[tawny lark]

It's job is to print me a Benchy and get disassembled so I can use the parts for something else

I'm not gonna bother getting it so cooperate

[covert torrent]

This the speed printer?

[tawny lark]

Yeah

[covert torrent]

Bro Ur X axis 😭

[tawny lark]

It doesn't matter anyway

[covert torrent]

No I meant

How it literally tore itself apart

[tawny lark]

Oh yeah

Rip

[lusty swift]

The west 3d stuff?

[lusty swift]

@tawny lark and what kind of flow rate to do run for open air abs?

[tawny lark]

20

[tawny lark]

Yes

[lusty swift]

With no cooling? How?

[tawny lark]

High layer time

Most of the things I print are fairly flat

[lusty swift]

Huh, ig I’ll try that. 6 cube gives me a pretty good voron cube

[tawny lark]

High layer time and going slow on overhangs

[tawny lark]

What's your overhang speeds?

[lusty swift]

47

The print rn is flow capped

[lusty swift]

What’s your layer time?

[tawny lark]

i mean this

[tawny lark]

8 seconds

[lusty swift]

K, I’ll play with this

[lusty swift]

And dis and come back

[lusty swift]

Great, thanks a lot

It’ll be like a 50% time cut on the ducts I’m printing right now.

[covert torrent]

thats crazy

actually

what is causing the x chart to look like that

[tawny lark]

probably cpap duct

[languid lava]

Imagine this: the CPAP tube and cables are attached to a rigid carbon tube which attaches at the top of the printer with another rail that also has its own motor

So that the CPAP duct is rigid but still moves with the print head

It’s a dumb idea but a funny one

[tawny lark]

Why is it worse now 😅

[lusty swift]

@tawny lark can I find the sovol rocksalt duct toolhead anywhere? And was there a ender/stinger belt clamp one ever designed?

[tawny lark]

https://cad.onshape.com/documents/9e1194754b610081363d8afd/w/0d6267791ac96125ec5ec5b4/e/a6235b4fb70d94f077eb6e8f

[distant relic]

@tawny lark how do you guys enclose your enders?

[unique halo]

He doesnt

[distant relic]

Do you enclose your bedslinger?

[unique halo]

Nope

Ive just printed abs gf in open air

[tawny lark]

I've put it in a tent or a cardboard box but I don't have the space for that RN

[thorn wind]

Kevin do you have an ali link or something for the 683 bearing you said you used on the Protoxtruder?

[tawny lark]

I got mine from fushi

[thorn wind]

thanks!

[covert torrent]

@tawny lark I'm getting a e3v2

[tawny lark]

Oh shit nice

[covert torrent]

for free too

I'm gonna do the original

single rail

[tawny lark]

nice

[tawny lark]

do roller y rail x

4040 roller y is viable

[covert torrent]

dYEAH

I was lazy

i was gonna harvest the bearings from the x

cuz you get 6 of em

[tawny lark]

lol

[drowsy haven]

Yeah, at one point I got 29k rec IS with vwheel and AWD y

But that was over a year ago so idk if it was entirely correct

Still works great though

For x it's mainly toolhead selection is way better with rails

[tawny lark]

part of me wants to make a mod for the 2040 that turns the extrusion on it's side since the carriage has the mounting holes so you can switch to that already

[drowsy haven]

should be pretty easy

flip over the middle 4040

[tawny lark]

but is there a point

[drowsy haven]

its probably a bit more stable

[tawny lark]

the mod will definately make the 2040 y a LOT better

but is there a point in making it in 2026

maybe if I get bored enough

[bright heart]

@tawny lark I've got an e3 pro, and i was wondering where i could find the hotend assembly frame you're using

I have a phaetus dragonfly hotend so I want to use that in conjunction with direct extrusion and a linear x rail, but i've yet to find any frames that allow for that

[exotic pier]

i’d suggest the frank v2 toolhead or u can customise kevin’s toolhead or the LH stinger toolhead (kevin’s toolhead is a customised stinger toolhead)

[bright heart]

the frank v2 looks amazing! I'm either going with either an upgraded bowden extruder, or the papilio lite. I'd like to try using the papilio though. Has anyone here had experience with a belt extruder?

[woven brook]

Its a fine extruder

[ivory bloom]

Only the 5015 one is stinger

[exotic pier]

what? frank can do either 5015 and 4010

[ivory bloom]

yes

only kevin's 5015 toolhead is stinger

the others are not

[exotic pier]

that’s what i said no?

that kevin’s toolhead is a modified stinger toolhead

[covert torrent]

Not rly

It was built ground up

Then turned into stinger

[exotic pier]

ah mb

[covert torrent]

As somebody who cadded the kevender front fan arm

It's just like it's hard to design optimally for 5015

U kinda only have one option

[frank moth]

So it covergently evolved into a stinger toolhead

[covert torrent]

Yes basically

[ivory bloom]

he has other kevender toolheads

that are not at all stinger

the 5015 one is not the only one

[languid lava]

The funny axial one

For those who hate the ability to hear

[exotic pier]

mb then

[thorn wind]

abec-1, right?

[tawny lark]

uuuuh idk

i think mine were abec-7 but i dont know what the significance is

[thorn wind]

I think abec-7 has a more precise tolerance while abec-1 is more resistant or something like that

got abec-1, we'll see how it goes

[drowsy haven]

according to some ppl in monolith, most aliexpress sellers just make up abec ratings

i honestly doubt it matters too much bc getting bearings from a reliable source matters more anyway

[kindred onyx]

abec afaik is just the range of deviation from nominal ball size

[tawny lark]

yeah. I just dont know how that really affects extruder performance

[kindred onyx]

i cant see a way it would yeah, at least if the bearing is within reason

[coral stone]

It's internal clearance, runout etc

[distant relic]

I always get nsk

[covert torrent]

@tawny lark

700wackevender time

[neat mulch]

did orbiter finally release the twistflow nozzle?

[neat mulch]

idk why we're all using long hotends like flag poles. People weld with stubby tig torches 1/4" steel with grip on the cup, without getting burnt and with less argon flow than cpap ... this 3d printing designed has reached its limit

last time i built a custom bike frame i was basically gripping on the cup. Water cooled torches tend to stay under 50C while producing and arc 10000c

[coral stone]

This arc definitely isn't this hot

[neat mulch]

long ways from the 240 you use to print your pla at

we're literally adding crutches in fantastically creative ways to stabilize these ever increasing hotends

[coral stone]

Yeah, because structural heatbreaks is how you snap a heatbreak, also heat break deflection is a very important factor limiting IS

[neat mulch]

lmao i've never seen anyone snap a tig torch

with a ceramic spacer you could support directly at the tip

[coral stone]

Now compare the mass of the hot bits of the torch and of the hotend. And keep in mind that torches don't have heatbreaks. And they're usually hand operated, not strapped to a gantry

[neat mulch]

you support the ends of the heater block at the end like the C from a coffee mug

it goes inside a steel tube, separates by the ceramic rings, the steel tube at its top end has the heatsink and extruder

like the tube going through a muffler, it is only supported on the ends by a thin wall, in this case make it ceramic

there is no flag pole effect, its supported at both ends

stresses on the ceramic rings are compressive only, this is the desired mode for ceramics

[thorn wind]

Got them from Fushi, should be fine then

[distant relic]

This is a really stupid take

A ceramic heatbrake should never be supporting anything

[distant relic]

@tawny lark What is the peak of bedslingers? I just ordered rails and everything for a 120mm bed slinger with 4012 extrusions

Should the plan be to just copy the stinger?

but smaller bed and beefier motion system+frame

[coral stone]

Stormwalker

[distant relic]

what is stormwalker?

I am not well versed in bed slingers

[coral stone]

https://github.com/Ataraxia-Mechanica/Stormwalker-120

[distant relic]

oh I can just make this but beefier and with some better motors

[distant relic]

I like ataraxia he has good stuff

[latent furnace]

You should try a chube

Small stubby high heat

[neat mulch]

haha yea ...

[latent furnace]

Slice mosquito hot end

Ok maybe that might be extreme

[kindred onyx]

who has the money for that tho

[covert torrent]

Not good for our shit anyway

We need a stiff light and long hotend

[latent furnace]

Good point

[latent furnace]

So like volcano?

I wonder what hot end gets super hot

[kindred onyx]

chube and goliath do up to 500C

[latent furnace]

I mean at an affordable price range

But ya

[surreal briar]

goliath more like 350-400

I would not trust mellow cheesium above that

[kindred onyx]

well they claim up to 500C without the sock

[surreal briar]

on paper and in practice is different

[kindred onyx]

yeah true but since i dont have one, or know anyone that has pushed it that hot, i can only rely on their claims

[surreal briar]

we have a ton of ht hotends out there now, goliath shouldn't really be mentioned for that, more like for performance

chubes, v9, tricorn, mosq, nitram volcomosq

[latent furnace]

Tricorn? herd of it but what makes it good and what's a v9?

[surreal briar]

https://www.v9hotend.com/

https://github.com/tricornhotend/tricornhotend.com

[latent furnace]

Wow

[rain bone]

Yea would be careful with cheaper hotends and hightemp because using a lower grade alloy is a easy way to get cost down

[distant relic]

Goliath is good to about 440 before their nichrome 80 alloy starts degradation.

So basically 500

But realistically under 440

Anything with c18150 and better with a good cartridge heater should be fine to 500c

I don’t exactly agree with the v9’s approach with a steel heatblock but we know that it works from other steel hotends. I have yet to see someone actually using it though

[distant relic]

Tricorn is supposed to be an open source hotend that just checks a lot of boxes for the money. Large meltzone, cartridge heaters, somewhat solid mounting interface, good nozzle shielding, c18150 block, ect. Imagine it as an evolution of a mosquito magnum plus with the same mount as a dragon hotend.

[latent furnace]

Thx

[coral stone]

Out of curiosity, why not?

[distant relic]

Long heat soak times, more wattage used, less consistent heating, ect. Just the same stuff as dk’s toolhead and monolith. Mostly just really slow to heat soak

[coral stone]

More wattage used? How?
And for the heatsoak time, anyone calculated / simulated the transients to compare?

[distant relic]

From what I have heard from monolith/dk users it takes around 4x as long to heat and you ideally want a high wattage supervolcano heater because of the higher capacity of steel and lower conductivity.

[coral stone]

Volumetric specific heat varies by 6% between copper and steel, that's basically nothing

[distant relic]

That doesn’t effect thermal transfer speed much though

Just at full capacity. It isn’t a major difference anyways once everything is heated up

[coral stone]

I wonder if it's slower than beds, definitely still faster than a chamber

[distant relic]

It is similar to a bed but there is still uneven heating issues unless you add a ton of extra thermal mass

[coral stone]

I wonder how measurable these gradients are

[distant relic]

Wayne and dk have a bunch of private posts about it

I don’t know if I can share that picture

[coral stone]

Huh, what's the heat loss mechanism used here? Just natural (radiation and convection)?

[distant relic]

Natural radiation into an 80c chamber

It was only like a 5c variation but it kept giving issues even with huge socks so the stainless heatblocks are on the backburner for now.

I would like to see a simulation and some thermal imaging of the v9

[coral stone]

And that's with the nickel coating on it (I think that's what V9 block has)?

[distant relic]

That was monolith hotend. I think that one was ceramic coated

Early ones were bare stainless

[coral stone]

This'll do it, stainless has high emissivity
Although still, bigger gradient than I'd expect

[distant relic]

Yeah i was surprised people were having so many issues with it

The emissivity wouldn’t matter so much if it didn’t have such a high capacitance and low conductivity