Now with PEEK: DupliHeater aka THE OBLITERATOR

[wraith forum]

(ish)

[next jungle]

how is it placed relative to the board?

[wraith forum]

Blower fan into the general direction. The other cutout is for an axial fan blowing directly over and under the board but I have to remove one of the ssr to mount the fan and then remount the ssr because it blocks the screws otherwise

bracket from the stock board cooling

[next jungle]

probably fine. but yea good that you hit the back of the board. usually thats where the most heat is

[wraith forum]

PID done, almost the same values

[nimble igloo]

I guess if it doesn't work then manually adjust PID gains

[wraith forum]

oh god how would I do that?😅

[next jungle]

copy the line it tells you at the end into the config, then adjust the parameters on the model

or copy it out the overrides file into the config

[nimble igloo]

In the command with PID tuning results just change values by hand, there are tables that say "if your response looks like this, change this gain"

[wraith forum]

ahhh okay those tables would be helpful

right now it holds steady at 150°C

[nimble igloo]

I'll need to look around for one in English

[wraith forum]

If it works if I heat up in stages I am gonna cry 😄

nope overshot

[nimble igloo]

This is for P and I

[wraith forum]

uhm.....

[nimble igloo]

A1 is low P and no I
D1 is low P and high I
A4 is high P and no I

[next jungle]

thats smart

no need to guess when someone did it already

[wraith forum]

soooo

If I am at say D3....

and I want B1

[next jungle]

reduce I a bit

then try again

[wraith forum]

huh

[next jungle]

if it looks more like C3 its the right direction

then reduce P a bit and if it looks like C2 its better

[wraith forum]

I feel I have to disable the error mode to see the graph

[next jungle]

if you have a stable tune it should work

[wraith forum]

I mean its not since it overshoots and errors out every single time

[nimble igloo]

Decrease the I gain a bit first

You can set both I and D gains to 0 to see if the P is too high

[wraith forum]

okay small understanding problem on my side:
M307 H1 R3.305 K1.113:0.014 D8.69 E1.35 S0.75 B0

thats what it spat out

Heater 1: heating rate 3.305, cooling rate 1.113/0.014, dead time 8.69, max PWM 0.75, mode PID, calibrated at 0.0V
Predicted max temperature rise 223°C
PID parameters: heating P6.2 I0.246 D37.8, steady P6.2 I0.368 D37.8````

thats my actual PID values

[next jungle]

from feel i would set I to 0.2 and see what happens

[wraith forum]

how do I change them?

[next jungle]

not a large change

but its sometimes better to do small changes to see how stuff reacts

[nimble igloo]

Ah, right, RRF uses model parameters

[wraith forum]

what I don't understand that its perfectly fine if I set the hotend to 150°C

but if I set it to 200°C it goes to 220°C and errors out

[next jungle]

at what temperature did you tuned it?

[wraith forum]

300°C

[next jungle]

might be not stable at 200°C

[wraith forum]

if I set it to 300°C it overshoots the same

[next jungle]

i have some slight instability on my K3 where the tune was dont at 270°C when printing at 330°C

weird, thats a quite unstable tune

tried to let ot run at full PWM not at 75%?

[wraith forum]

yes, initial tune was at 100%

[next jungle]

M301 does support to set individual PID values

[wraith forum]

PSA: Hot things are hot. Ouch

anyways: Should that thermistor be a bit further in there🙈

And yes thats a fresh scratch on the block

[next jungle]

but the downside is it overwrites the model of M307 and has some limitations

https://docs.duet3d.com/en/User_manual/Connecting_hardware/Heaters_tuning here is a way described in how to manually tune the model, might work for you

[gentle orbit]

ah yeah classic

[gentle orbit]

do you start from ambient and do the tool tuneing?

[gentle orbit]

sounds like thermistor

[wraith forum]

yesn't, sometimes 😄

[gentle orbit]

if you don't start from room temp you have to put the start value in the command

[wraith forum]

huh

[next jungle]

the tuning command has a A parameter for setting ambient temp

it was A iirc

[gentle orbit]

yeah if it's already hot the R value will be lower since it doesn't take as much to heat up

so it overshoots

[wraith forum]

let me take alook at the doc

yes its A

sooo lets do it again properly

[gentle orbit]

[wraith forum]

didn't think of that

tbf its not on the heater tuning page

[gentle orbit]

huh

[wraith forum]

yes but not on the "how to PID tune" page

[gentle orbit]

https://docs.duet3d.com/User_manual/Connecting_hardware/Heaters_tuning

ah

there's multiple pages

[wraith forum]

ofc there is 😄

so lets preheat to 50°C because that works somehow

[next jungle]

if it keeps overshooting reduce the R parameter in the model by 5-10%

[wraith forum]

thank ya'll for the support

couldn't do it without you

[next jungle]

you could, would just take longer

[wraith forum]

Graphic. Seems like I do have to make a few metal spools after all

[gentle orbit]

oh no

[wraith forum]

10 mins at 140ºC and honestly I don't know what I expected

[gentle orbit]

[next jungle]

yea that was to be expected

[wraith forum]

Filament is fine

[gentle orbit]

filament looks fine

[next jungle]

you could harrass ares industries for restock them

well they make them to order

[wraith forum]

did you see my plan? 😄

[next jungle]

i mean that would be the easy low efford way out of it

[wraith forum]

https://de.aliexpress.com/item/4000310461924.html those plus a few 60 mm standoffs

[next jungle]

thats one way

[wraith forum]

so, guess what works now.....

https://tenor.com/view/excited-ah-ahh-gif-24288323

[gentle orbit]

nice

I guess a disclaimer would be nice for the tuning page

[wraith forum]

looks like C1 now

[gentle orbit]

so I is high?

a bit

I'd just be lazy and send it

[wraith forum]

🤏

Good enough

[wraith forum]

I am very happy😊

[gentle orbit]

first prints soon? 👀

[wraith forum]

maybe this weekend, but probably not PEI/PEEK

on account of I can't dry it reliably 😄

maybe I try the microwave.....

[nimble igloo]

C1 is decent
The optimal response for our use case is B2, but C1 also works

[opaque oxide]

What did the fan think of the bed?

[wraith forum]

well nothing because I wasn't powering the bed while trying to figure out the hotend

[normal mango]

what’s this

[wraith forum]

its for manual PID tuning

[wraith forum]

so you change the values from where you are to where you want it to go

[normal mango]

yea i think i’ll let klipper do that for me

[nimble igloo]

You do this when the autotuning algorithm fails

[chrome depot]

It's a shame you are not in canada, the northprint3d ones are cheap

[chrome depot]

Wait wtf

Damn

I ordered a spool of PETG from sunlu and it has the max spool temp on it, weird that this one would not have any warnings

[wraith forum]

PC spool at 140ºC

[chrome depot]

Time to make a spool design, get standoffs and screws and get the side plates laser cut

[wraith forum]

Didn't think much, the Filament PM PEI has a "dry at 110ºC and the spool can take that too" sentence on the storepage

[chrome depot]

Laserboost is pretty good for the wallet especially when you order larger qty

[wraith forum]

Ooor use the streaming trays

which is much less work

Probably

Hopefully

[chrome depot]

Just need to drill them out

To put the standoffs

[wraith forum]

It has holes so...I am counting on that

[chrome depot]

Those are big holes it looks like

Not standoff fitting holes I think

[wraith forum]

I have washers

[chrome depot]

Fair enough I guess

[wraith forum]

Plus 6 holes on the drillpress is not that much

(with sandwiched plates)

[chrome depot]

Yeah

Just need to make sure they are well lined up

Otherwise it shall wobble a lot

[gentle orbit]

easy enough with a printed jig

[chrome depot]

Yeah true

[wraith forum]

I clearly didn't remove the manual bed probing gcode from the default start gcode 🙈

[wraith forum]

Retractions etc, but looks nice.

[wraith forum]

PSA: Heated Beds can be hot

I think placing the chamber thermistor on the left side on the height of the nozzle and away from the chamber heaters exhaust gives more accurate readings. Maybe

[nimble igloo]

How hot will this chamber go for now?

[wraith forum]

Will check, problem is something still smokes. I bet the spacers keeping the heaters from touching the metal housing.

I think I'll wrap some alu in kapton tape instead of the silicone/nylon spacers

Or try to yolo peek or pei spacers

[nimble igloo]

How would this spacer look?

[wraith forum]

Like the original one, a 3 mm thick square frame with square cutout corners. Should be fine

[nimble igloo]

Hmm, how hot is the heater getting?

[wraith forum]

230ºC so right at the edge of capabilities.

[nimble igloo]

What about soft fire brick? Can be carved with an utility knife etc, just don't inhale

[wraith forum]

Don't have any and would probably crumble when I fasten it back to the fan, but I like the idea...I still have some of the silicone coated glass fiber sleeve. I bet I could use that

Maybe turn it inside out

[nimble igloo]

Basically I was looking at refractory materials you can process by hand

Sadly castables need firing

[wraith forum]

Yeah, custom ceramic spacers etc would be really great

(thinking about the 1000ºC furnace at work)

[nimble igloo]

Oh, so you can fire

[nimble igloo]

Actually, @wraith forum
Furnace rope / fire rope
It's just woven rough fiberglass, meant for sealing furnaces etc. You just place it between 2 surfaces in a pattern you want and bolt them together

[wraith forum]

Oh good idea

[opaque oxide]

wtf soft fire brick

how have i never stumbled across this before

[next jungle]

get a oseq buildplate, will remind you when its hot

[wraith forum]

I knew it was hot. Didn't stop me from poking around with the thermistor and accidentally pressing my arm against the edge of the bed

[next jungle]

well then get some heat resistant sleeves

[wraith forum]

added the second electronics fan, MCU temp under load at 43°C instead of ~50°C. Nice

also printing a "looks neater" plate for the electronics to stop the wires from just flopping around

the part I am printing has 15 layers, no clue how RRF came to this conclusion

"go home, you are drunk" moment

[wraith forum]

ordered some of that, seems the easiest/safest solution for now

and we are at 55°C chamber passively with the 100°C bed and the new thermistor location

[normal mango]

what did u use as chamber isolation?

[nimble igloo]

I just knew that I'm missing something obvious when brainstorming before

[gentle orbit]

isn't it cubic

[wraith forum]

Car body insulation and alu tape

[gentle orbit]

no I mean 13399.30 mm3

[wraith forum]

No clue, it uses mm apparently🤷

[gentle orbit]

so like 13.4 cm3

which is like 14 grams of plastic

[wraith forum]

This stuff, butyl foam with adhesive and an aluminized side

[normal mango]

alr tysm

[gentle orbit]

oh you meant layers

[wraith forum]

yes

[gentle orbit]

sorry, lack of caffeine

[wraith forum]

the height is off and thus the amount of layers

no worries

its now at layer 14, we'll see if it just continues or not 😄

[wraith forum]

Looks neater, works the same. No one will see it in action. Totally worth it

[gentle orbit]

yeah I can't judge

[nimble igloo]

Are you using the punch-type printable labels? So cool

[gentle orbit]

oh yeah those are cool

[wraith forum]

One of these cheap things

[gentle orbit]

I see you also have the single phase disconnecting power switch, you think it's worth going for one that does both?

[wraith forum]

couldn't get the switch out

[gentle orbit]

ah

[wraith forum]

but the safety switch in front disconnects both phases

[gentle orbit]

should probably get something similar

[wraith forum]

Yesno

*couldn't get it out safely without destroying the whole IEC connector and the one I have has the wrong mounting pattern so I decided "good enough is good enough"

[normal mango]

are u using 1 z motor?

[wraith forum]

I did not change the stock movement system so yeah: one z motor

[normal mango]

ah alr

[wraith forum]

it has two 12 mm linear rods and a ball screw, I am not that worried

[normal mango]

ball screw?

[wraith forum]

imagine a threaded rod but instead of threads it runs on ball bearings

like a helical ball bearing

[nimble igloo]

Yeah, it's solid

[wraith forum]

https://www.barnesballscrew.com/images/1.jpg

oh wrong picture though

the one thats in the printer is internal

[nimble igloo]

Anyway, @wraith forum , I was asking about your target temps because you can wire BME280 to RRF and it's SPI temp, humidity and pressure sensor that works up to 85°C

[wraith forum]

https://www.barnesballscrew.com/how-a-ball-screw-works/ one of these 😄

[wraith forum]

instead of just a thermistor?

[nimble igloo]

Yep, for more sensors in a chamber

[wraith forum]

ahhhh

good to know if/when I need it

[nimble igloo]

They're dirt cheap

https://docs.duet3d.com/User_manual/Connecting_hardware/Temperature_connecting_DHT

[wraith forum]

god I love the duet docs❤️

[nimble igloo]

You'd need to ask RRF folks for how many can you connect (technically you just need more GPIO for CS, but dunno how RRF handles it

[next jungle]

the 6hc has like 3 or 4 SPI pins free for one

the other connections might become a issue

[wraith forum]

Trying to wrap my head around how to tell the printer what to do with the chamber heater: What I want to do is limit the heaters max temp to 200ºC (from its max equilibrium temp 230ºC ) but still be able to be throttled down when the set chamber heat is reached.

Mh does limiting the power reduce the max temp of a ptc?🤔

Because that would be the easiest

[gentle orbit]

my heater has a thermostat that limits its power, maybe wire up those?

would that 30C difference matter?

[wraith forum]

I mean for the plastic in direct contact with it probably yes

[nimble igloo]

Yes, but will change the PID gains

[wraith forum]

Bang Bang anyways

[next jungle]

i dont directly control the heater on my k3, it just goes full blast until the ambient temperature is reached

[nimble igloo]

Ah, then you can likely make daemon.g adjust max power depending on the heater temperature

[next jungle]

it does havea thermstatic switch on it, but it might wear out over time

[wraith forum]

Yeah thats what it does currently

[next jungle]

its the easiest way to have it aim for a certain ambient temp.
if not configured as a heater you can do some stuff with the daemon.g, did that in the past but rn i just run the heater dumb with a chamber thermistor for the feedback

[nimble igloo]

I believe that he can implement the power limiting in daemon.g to limit the power near the 200°C point

[next jungle]

i guess you could write some logic to reduce power until it stays at the target or just figure it out and set it as a hard limit

also this gives me now to think about my implementation, the thermal switch opens at 150°C +-10°C

probably could get a bit more of heat out of it by either bypassing the switch or going to a higher temp rated one

but that would open another can of worms as it might melt the mounting bracket it has from factory

[nimble igloo]

Sneak in one from Ti at work

[next jungle]

if we would print TI in the first place

inconel is already rare, stainless is doable

but then i would need to get some ceramic insulators i guess

[nimble igloo]

Stainless would be fine, just do some topo optimization to bleed off the heat

[next jungle]

alternative i figure out how to print PEKK

[next jungle]

the being electricaly conductive part is the bigger issue i think

i guess there is a reason why it came stock with PA12 mounting brackets

[nimble igloo]

What size mounting screws?

[next jungle]

to the fanshroud behind it with M3 screws
to the heater some selftappers of unknown size

i know its possible to electricaly isolate it, but not sure if its worth the efford

[nimble igloo]

Ceramic isolators for transistors are like $5 per 10 if you wanna try

[next jungle]

tbf overall im more worried about the selftappers being a one time use thing, the ones used for holding the thermal switch on it are already a bit worn after uninstalling and installing them

but rn it works. so better to not touch it i guess

[wraith forum]

Well that didn't hold up too well

[nimble igloo]

Why not?

[wraith forum]

PEEK and no 2.85 mm
it evolved

[nimble igloo]

We just need to get you a better heatbreak, right?

[wraith forum]

And drill out the printhead

[nimble igloo]

Print enough PLA CF and the bore will widen itself

[wraith forum]

And somehow find a heatbreak for a 7.8 mm hole

[nimble igloo]

I wonder if I have the right size thin wall tubing

[wraith forum]

I mean you can find medical grade steel tubes in all shapes and sizes but that doesn't make a good heatbreak

I looked, a lot

[nimble igloo]

I have tubes, I have copper stock and I have access to a clapped out lathe

[gentle orbit]

can't you adapt to a common size?

or just want to keep it simple for now?

[chrome depot]

just need a friend with a lathe to fix that

[wraith forum]

All heatbreaks (I found ) are either m7 threaded/7mm smooth or have the wrong thread (MK10)
BiQu has one according to their Alix store but they just sent a mk8 one if you buy it

[nimble igloo]

Actually, 7 mm smooth will be easy to mod, just glue on a thin wall tubing with 7 mm ID

[wraith forum]

right now I just used a strip of alutape and that seems to work

[chrome depot]

I could modify my original toolhead with a press fit tube to have a 7mm hole and send it to you if you pay shipping

[wraith forum]

👀

Shipping: 50$ probably

I mean if I could find the right tube

Mh putting 7 mm ID copper pipe into a drill and sand it down to paper thin?

[chrome depot]

Send me your address and I'll get a quote, shouldn't be too much

[next jungle]

7mm ID is massive

[wraith forum]

Thats what the heatbreaks I have have

[next jungle]

if you convert to 1.75 you probably dont need a bore this large for the PTFE tube

[wraith forum]

It already is 1.75 mm

[next jungle]

so you want to go 2.85 then?

[wraith forum]

no

[next jungle]

hmm then ive missed some context

[wraith forum]

That was the original pla

[wraith forum]

The stock heatbreak is 7.8 mm in diameter with a M7 thread for the heatblock. I couldn't find a M6 threaded one for the high temp heatblock that also has a 7.8 mm body. So I just taped a bit of alu tape around it and janked the grub screws down on it and hope it has enough contact with the heatsink to not heatcreep to hell

[next jungle]

ahh so you just want to unfuck the design

[wraith forum]

basically

@severe obsidian is the guy you bought the special heatbreak from for peeky still in business?

Never thought about that🙈

[next jungle]

hmm sadly the kraken heatbreak is also 7mm OD

worst case you can probably make a quick CAD file and hope JLC can make one

[severe obsidian]

No but I stopped using it anyway, I have a Copperhead MK10 (?) heatbreak now

[wraith forum]

[severe obsidian]

It's also 7.8mm, sticks out a bit more but otherwise it's drop-in

[wraith forum]

Huh

Oh 30€ for a heatbreak

[severe obsidian]

The Guy From Virginia Special (tm) was also like $30 ish I think

[next jungle]

hmm the Sovol 01 heatbreak might work

7.8mm OD with a M6 thread

[wraith forum]

Oh whaat?

[next jungle]

thats what some random online result shows when searching SV01 pro heatbreak

[wraith forum]

Yeah thats exactly what I need

Now I only need to find a seller selling a replacement part for an ancient-ish printer

[opaque oxide]

pewa or motorsports might know

[gentle orbit]

at this point I'd just ream my own copper rod to make a custom break

[next jungle]

worst case get a bimetal heatbreak, heat it. seperate it and press on a custom made coldside

[gentle orbit]

yeah that's what I meant

should be easy enough

[nimble igloo]

Sovol still sells them at $10 per 3

[wraith forum]

they look wrong though

[next jungle]

sadly none of the chinese seller have a drawing online of what they sell so you can check dimensions

worst case you get the Slice MK10 heatbreak

[gentle orbit]

those are for the pro that use the creality like

[nimble igloo]

You can just message sellers if you want to spend an afternoon talking to people who don't understand you

[nimble igloo]

Drawing is here
https://www.printables.com/model/223015-sovol-sv01-pro-all-metal-heatbreak-volcano-dual-50

[gentle orbit]

hmm, weird

sovol doesn't sell the same looking heatbreak

this is the one needed

[wraith forum]

Well I found out what smoked

[chrome depot]

Gawd damn

[wraith forum]

Also, this "Silicone" melts at 230ºC🤷

[chrome depot]

Time for titanium slm housing with ceramic spacers

[wraith forum]

Or just 6 mm glass fiber rope with the nylon shell

@nimble igloo amazing idea, thank you🙏

[nimble igloo]

It's already in?

[wraith forum]

Test fitted, still picking bits of silicone from the fins

Basically one loop on each side

Keeps is nicely centered I think

[nimble igloo]

Thicc

[wraith forum]

Its supposed to be ø 6 mm when stretched

[wraith forum]

Should be fine

[wraith forum]

It heats still the tiniest amount of smoke, probably missed a few tiny spots of silicone

I should put it outside and let it bake for an hour or two to really get rid of it

But it didn't short out so thats great

And the crossflow fan isn't as annoying anymore after loosening and reattaching it🤷

[gentle orbit]

you lose some you win some

[opaque oxide]

don't the heaters themselves usually get pretty hot?

Might have exceeded 230

in the metal at least

they also could have lied

[wraith forum]

The thermistor I had shoved between the fins hopefully doesn't lie

[opaque oxide]

oh yeah that does make my theory less plausible

[wraith forum]

so with the new chamber thermistor position it takes about 10 minutes to reach 60°C in the chamber on the height of the nozzle (and yes I need to PID tune the bed again, same issue I had with the nozzle PID)

probs a bit less when I put the bed on 150°C directly

nozzle lags a bit behind, I guess because of the thermal mass of the heatblock, its the same now

[gritty sonnet]

i feel like it should be faster than that

[wraith forum]

Also: What does it tell me that the G10 sheet looses its translucency? (max temp G10 was 120°C right?)

We are now at 73°C chamber

18 min

I also open the door sometimes to see if it smokes or not

also thermal expansion is real: The acrylic door now jams on one corner

[wraith forum]

I mean I have no comparison, so I take what I can get

I'll go to 80°C and stop it then

34 mins to 80°C

I'll take it

also doesn't smoke any more (for now)

[wraith forum]

okay I tried to wrap my head around how to wire and configure that but I failed horribly: How do I use a seperate 5V powersupply to cut the 24V system? The Octopus pro has a dedicated PS_ON pin so I guess that would be used but where would the 5V come into the mainboard? Where would the 24V go to power the heater, fans etc?

I feel like I am missing some vital info since I always read "just wire in a seperate 5V PSU" but never a tutorial or something to actually do that

[normal mango]

wait what u trying to do

i’m confused

[wraith forum]

since this thing is kinda hot I want to have an additional layer of safety to cut out the primary power by cutting off the 24V PSU when the Firmware tells it to

[normal mango]

oh

[gentle orbit]

what I do is just cut the AC with a contactor that also turns off the main 24V supply

[wraith forum]

I mean yeah true but how would it work?

[gentle orbit]

what do you mean?

[wraith forum]

the 5v thing

Also the contactor while we are at it. Do you close it manually to start the printer?

[gentle orbit]

so the AC coming from the plug gets split into a main branch behind a contactor and a small PSU that handles the power for the MCU. So when you turn the switch on the small PSU gets power, that turns on the MCU, and then the MCU turns the contactor on energizing everything else on the main branch

the contactor is switched by the board so not manual

[wraith forum]

Okay and the small psu powers what?

[gentle orbit]

the mcu

the 5v lane on the board

[wraith forum]

THIS

how tf do you wire that

Thats what I am asking

[gentle orbit]

oh, just use the dedicated rail or usb connector

[wraith forum]

...

Pretend I am 5

So put 5V psu into USB?

[gentle orbit]

you can power the octo by putting 5V into the USB or directly powering it on the pins

USB works as well if you have a small phone charger brick you can sacrifice

[wraith forum]

thats the info I needed

No clue where the 5V pins would be anyways

[gentle orbit]

probably EXP header

[wraith forum]

Makes sense

[gentle orbit]

I think you have a switch that lets you choose between USB powered or powered by the Vin

[wraith forum]

Yeah I remenber from flashing the thing

Thats where these are useful I think

(if it would fit)

[gentle orbit]

only thing I'm unsure of with USB powered whether you still need a common ground or not

[wraith forum]

Meaning 5v and 24v having connected grounds?

[gentle orbit]

yeah

I know you have to connect the grounds on all PSUs

so probably?

[wraith forum]

I mean seems logical

[gentle orbit]

definitely check that with someone smarter than me though

also double check the 5v power if you skip USB

the logic is 3.3V so I'm not sure how your specific board handles it

[wraith forum]

Already helped a lot

🙏

[opaque oxide]

What do you mean connect the grounds? The protective ground in the wall or the return path for the 5v supply?

[nimble igloo]

GND output rails of PSUs
"Return path" isn't the best name

[next jungle]

On the duet 3 board the pson header has 3 pins, where 2 are to backfeed the board and the 3rd one is to switch the psu

Just needs to get a jumper set to bypass the internal 5v voltage regulator and use the external supply

[nimble igloo]

On Octopus you can't bypass it, if you want to connect external 5 V it gets connected through a diode to the 5 V buck output

[next jungle]

Thats just stupid. But then again its a budget board

[wraith forum]

I might order some custom lasered 2 mm steel plates as build plates, ya think its worth it to let them laser a fine grid onto it?

and they are not more expensive than getting some random AliX plates to buff the surface off

[next jungle]

you probably have no access to a sandblasting setup right?

[normal mango]

id give it a shot i think

[wraith forum]

no I have not

the sandblasting

[gentle orbit]

spring steel?

2 mm sounds a bit thick

[wraith forum]

🤷 JLC doesn't have spring steel, so either Stainless or Cold Rolled.
Its an addition as I am caving in and ordering Metal Spool Sides from them

[nimble igloo]

Although you could try aggresive etching

[wraith forum]

mh good thought

[nimble igloo]

Check which steel is harder

[wraith forum]

or....steel wool 😄

[gentle orbit]

cold rolled sounds better but idk how it'd stand up to being heated to 200C from room temp and back down repeatedly

can't be worse than random chinese flex beds I guess

[wraith forum]

stainless steel 201 is actually cheaper

[gentle orbit]

stainless so you can cook on the bed

[wraith forum]

I could just wirewheel it, couldn't I?

[gentle orbit]

are you getting a sandwich panel under the bed btw? so the heater is not hold by glue or rtv

[wraith forum]

It is sandwiched

[gentle orbit]

probably, but NPA should stick anyway

I like Dead's etching idea

[wraith forum]

mh according to JLC 12.30€ for two 2 mm plates with lasermarking.....

[gentle orbit]

that's not bad

[wraith forum]

7.50€ without the lasermarking

[nimble igloo]

I assume you wanna use clips for it and not magnets?

[wraith forum]

yeah I have clamps

removed the magnet sheet that was on there already

[gentle orbit]

how small can they go? you could get a mesh or net for your heatblock to hold it from the bottom and then use a smaller heatbreak

[wraith forum]

I do not follow?

[gentle orbit]

you have that weird OD heatbreak that holds the block, what if you just laser a mesh that holds the block so you can use a regular break

[wraith forum]

the block has two m2 screws holding it to the heatsink

[gentle orbit]

oh it does?

I might be blind

[wraith forum]

Dragon block

[wraith forum]

sorta kinda can see it there

[gentle orbit]

oh above the access grooves

ye

nvm then

[wraith forum]

I may need to loose these silicone spacers

reprinting the wheels is high on the list

[gentle orbit]

return to springs?

[wraith forum]

not sure whats better for those temps

[gentle orbit]

peek printed standoffs

[wraith forum]

compliant mechanism standoffs 😄

so springs it its 😄

[gentle orbit]

I think the croxy had lasered plate kinematic joints

if you want to get real fancy with it

[wraith forum]

kinematic mount on a catilevered bed? 😄

[gentle orbit]

cantilevered Z, the bed could still be kinematic

regular springs are probably fine tho on 180x180

[wraith forum]

220x220 Bed with 200x190 printarea

[wraith forum]

wild

[opaque oxide]

wire wheel on a grid of 2mm plate sounds like a recipe for cutting up your wire wheel into a wire pile

not sure how good you are with an angle grinder, but clamping something like that down and hitting it with a flap sander would probably work as long as you dont need the surface to be perfectly level

[wraith forum]

Its supposed to be a print plate.

[opaque oxide]

ah, mb 😅

[wraith forum]

Pretty colours

hot tightening at 450°C

And I forgot to paint a funny thing on the block before. A well...maybe when I replace the block someday

[next jungle]

just make sure to not have ABS resedues in there the next time

[wraith forum]

Mh?

Thats a fresh nozzle

[normal mango]

what happened here?

why the rectangle not rectangular

[next jungle]

yea but the next time its filled with something.
having the accidental ABS cookoff is no fun

[wraith forum]

not an active heater, I guess thats why

the accociated thermistor is not used to control the heater

[wraith forum]

there was some smoke billowing out, I guess there was a tiny bit of stuff stuck on the heatbreak

[next jungle]

overheated ABS is just annoying, smokes a lot and carbonises and cleaning that out is annoying

[opaque oxide]

Is that oxidation expected?

[normal mango]

well

ur heating the block to 400C

[wraith forum]

Yes, happens to the nickel coating at 400ºC ish

[normal mango]

so id be surprised if u didnt get the oxidation

[opaque oxide]

oh interesting, didnt know nickel had issues at such low temps

[normal mango]

out of curiosity are u building a peek printer?

[wraith forum]

You can paint stuff on there with some oil and have it oxidize

[wraith forum]

Got 2.5 kg of the stuff so yeah

[raw shoal]

So you want to print PEEK on a budget?
https://karlzhao314.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-peek-performance-project-part-1.html

Note: This is not a tutorial. Inform yourself and do research before undertaking an advanced build project.

?peekbudget requested by: m.von.d#0

[wraith forum]

Based on this

[wraith forum]

Not entirely sure if the block is nickel coated or if its a copper alloy throughout. Colours would indicate the latter

[nimble igloo]

Copper with nickel plating
Remember to not get a tungsten carbide nozzle for HT

[wraith forum]

Its steel

[nimble igloo]

Yeah, just for future reference

[naive finch]

Why

[nimble igloo]

Tungsten carbide has too low CTE and too high E, which means that in a copper block at high temps it slowly shears off threads, loosening itself and wrecking the block

[wraith forum]

Next up: NASA motor cooling

Need to print a manifold and recreate the cooling jackets

[nimble igloo]

Got enough clearance like on the original?

[wraith forum]

What clearance specifically?

For the tubes

[nimble igloo]

Around the motor, "radially" so to speak

[wraith forum]

One side is a bit tight but It should be fine

On one motor

[nimble igloo]

Barbs will be the hardest to make printable, I think

[opaque oxide]

does that work better than mounting a fan on it?

seems neat regardless

[wraith forum]

In a 90ºC chamber? Yes

[opaque oxide]

ah, didnt' realize your motors were in your chamber

[wraith forum]

Yeah likely maybe make holes and insert a barb or even a metal fitting

[wraith forum]

I think mounting the motors outside is possible but a bit too involved (for now)

[next jungle]

probably easier to make them holes and thread them
atleast thats the solution i know that works from experience

[wraith forum]

Bought this, its so stupid cheap its not worth it to design a printed one

5€ for two

[gentle orbit]

it's not about the cost but the challenge

and you passed the challenge of not overcomplicating things by designing and printing something you can buy off the self for cheap

[wraith forum]

https://tenor.com/view/its-something-something-here-you-go-it's-something-its-something-funny-gif-1669161523447633417

[next jungle]

now get it printed out of Copper

[wraith forum]

or just Nylon/PP

I mean PC/PETG technically has high enough temp resistance

mh I got that PP-CF still lying around

[wraith forum]

nema 14 round version

[normal mango]

the water flows inside the shell?

[wraith forum]

aircooling

[normal mango]

bcs it looks super thin

[normal mango]

ohhhh

mb

[wraith forum]

no worries

[wraith forum]

like this

[normal mango]

ye i thought it was air cooling at first and then misunderstood smth

[wraith forum]

its basically just an airduct letting the air (hopefully) flow around the motor

printing a PETG testpiece of each to see if they even remotely fit

I suck at modeling 😄

[normal mango]

if it has inlet and exhaust wouldn’t it make more sense to make the channel inside more defined? or are u limited by space

[wraith forum]

kinda limited

and the airflow is not that much anyways

its an experiment most of all

[normal mango]

ye fair

[gentle orbit]

maybe cut the corners here a bit to help airflow

keeps the outer dimensions the same and still makes for a bit better flow

[wraith forum]

There should be enough space for airflow by the motor geometry. I'll try to make a slightly better version properly

[sage talon]

are you planning on preheating your filament when you print

[gentle orbit]

that a thing?

[sage talon]

idk

[nimble igloo]

Some papers mention it for heavily reinforced filaments, so they won't be too brittle to feed

[wraith forum]

No, not really

[wraith forum]

Regarding motorcooling: Ya'll think its enough to have cool air passing over the back/bottom of the stepper motor? Like these but with air

[next jungle]

try and see, worst case you have to change medium to water

[wraith forum]

I guess that would be the easiest

[gentle orbit]

wasn't it better to cool the sides? I remember having only the bottom cooled wasn't worth

[wraith forum]

Yeah but I am trying to avoid disassembling the movement system

[gentle orbit]

maybe with water in a semi cold chamber bottom only is enough but for HT I'd go for something that causes less headaches later

especially with just air

I wonder if you could just put 2 of these on the stepper

[wraith forum]

Yeah I thought about that but I would need to brace them

[sage talon]

zipties

C clamp also maybe?

[next jungle]

metal zipties exist

[wraith forum]

All good ideas, will see what transpires in the end

[chrome depot]

It does help a lot

Not as much as from the sides but still

[wraith forum]

I have one thermistor slot left, will just test it

[wraith forum]

[nimble igloo]

If feeling fancy, add an o-ring groove

[wraith forum]

if it works maybe

[supple hemlock]

[wraith forum]

Intentional

Should probably keep it back from the sidewall

in my head this will make the sides come down to the surface when bolted down

[wraith forum]

PEEK loaded

[normal mango]

GG

[opaque oxide]

that's gotta be $20 of filament :0

[wraith forum]

sidenote: 400°C Polypropylene stinks to high hell

[opaque oxide]

What temp does it decompose? I thought most thermoplastics started at 300c

[wraith forum]

No clue but before 400ºC

we are at 82°C chamber

I'll try to print its PEEK badge

[next jungle]

just be mentaly prepared that a PEEK blob is a lot more annoying than a PETG blob

[wraith forum]

I am so nervous

[next jungle]

ive had a PPS blob that ive luckly catched early enough

[wraith forum]

I am most amazed that it seems to be dry

[next jungle]

i really should give the PEKK a try at this point

but i need to get a new buildplate for that i guess, PEI is not ideal

[wraith forum]

Just overheat a piece of G10

I have no clue if that looks remotely right

@severe obsidian does that look right?

[next jungle]

i do have a ruined springsteel plate that i could attempt to cleanup

[wraith forum]

Comes out translucent, gets opaque, right?

[next jungle]

the color looks to be in the right direction

[wraith forum]

Purge did that at least

I wish I had a thermal camera

Also the shadows of the moving toolhead freaking me out because it looks like smoke on first glance

And I need a stiffer buildplate

When PEEK is less fussy than PP (for now)

Wants to warp though

[next jungle]

thats why PEKK exist

[wraith forum]

Bridges are horrible

Mh kinda fine when opaque

[wraith forum]

Done

Bit wavy because of the warping

[normal mango]

GG

[gritty sonnet]

wowza you did the thing

[wraith forum]

Only 90ºC chamber though

[gritty sonnet]

whats your goal?

[wraith forum]

Kaz got ~150ºC iirc

[gritty sonnet]

gl gl

[wraith forum]

🫡 ||will use black countersunk screws when I get around to it||

yes the sticking out bits of the original name annoy me too

[severe obsidian]

Yeah that's righg

[wraith forum]

Thank you for the Blogposts❤️

[gentle orbit]

nice

[wraith forum]

Now with PEEK: DupliHeater aka THE OBLITERATOR

[wraith forum]

I feel like I should set up a few macros. Right now its all very manual

But brain kinda says no🙈

I added a btt smart filament sensor I had lying around though

[gentle orbit]

what kinda macros you have in mind?

[normal mango]

$ SET_HEATER_TEMPERATURE HEATER=extruder TARGET=Nan

[gentle orbit]

RRF: lol

[normal mango]

thats no fun

[wraith forum]

Honestly haven't looked into it. Normal stuff not just macros. I have no clue how PA works on rrf (just put it in the slicer?), I know that setting inputshaper is just a gcode but do I just put that in config.g, do I have to load it before a print? Does the Filament sensor just work or do I have to define a macro to call. A start/end macro etc. Its just something I would need to put the work in for and currently I just don't

[next jungle]

you can use the filament manager to handle the PA

[gentle orbit]

PA is the same as klipper or marlin, you define it after the tool

or that yeah if you use the filament manager in RRF

filament override will run the filament specific gcode where you can store PA

[next jungle]

i use the filament manager to set PID models per filament since they tend to be stable at different temps

like my PLA PID is tuned around 230°C while PPS is tuned around 330°C

[chrome depot]

I need to get around to doing filament manager on my machines

[wraith forum]

Thats a good idea

Maybe dumb but couldn't I put the PID gcode into the Filament Gcode in Orca Slicer? Should work

[next jungle]

will work, keeping it on the machine has the benefit to not loose it in case something happens to the slicer profile

[wraith forum]

True

I keep it on the machine for klipper too

[next jungle]

i did add a bit of logic to also check if the sliced filament is the one that is loaded on the printer

[wraith forum]

Same (on klipper)

[wraith forum]

Well, how the turns have tabled on the original idea

[gentle orbit]

[wraith forum]

I checked my aliexpress purchases and I spend ~200€ on it for stuff I explicitly ordered for it

its s bit more total for some of the materials like the mdf panels, the corrugated PC sheet for the top, some extra insulation, random alu plates etc

[wraith forum]

The membrane pump I got works with water so I ordered water cooling blocks and tubing

[nimble igloo]

Soon™ : Hollow linear rods and pumping water through them to cool the bearings

[next jungle]

or ask igus for some hightemp bushings

they wanted to send me some for free last time ive talked to them at formnext

[nimble igloo]

And wear them out in a week

[nimble igloo]

You can ask for the whole corner display with presentation without owning a company

[next jungle]

i mean i do have a card from the salesrep responsible for my area
talked to him at a smaller expo last year

wanted to know if the small robot they make would work for actually automating stuff. but its a toy that maxes out at next to no load

might even struggle to handle larger buildplates

[opaque oxide]

would that cool the bearings? 🤔 aren't bearings designed to have as little contact as possible?

[wraith forum]

Thermal expansion kills bearings so keeping the rod cool keeps it from expanding too much

The D6 uses plastic bushings though

Not too worried about them (yet)

[wraith forum]

(That might be completely wrong, thats just what I think it is)

[sage talon]

Or just use brass graphite bushings

Honestly, it should work up to whatever chamber temp you want

[wraith forum]

mh good idea actually

[opaque oxide]

ohhhh good to know

[nimble igloo]

They're filled with grease

[rough quartz]

yes !! I have like half a printer designed using this

[wraith forum]

Well what transpired is exactly what Tushonk and Superbrain foretold 40 mm alu cooling blocks and metal zipties (and some thermal pads I guess?)

[gentle orbit]

just make sure it doesn't leak

[wraith forum]

I mean naturally

Got a 2.5 L lab bottle as reservoir

[wraith forum]

Will also put one block on the hotend heatsink in series with the extruder motor one I guess

[gentle orbit]

I wonder if you could replace the heatsink with that waterblock

drill a 7 mm hole through the center then just solder in the heatbreak

[wraith forum]

Yeah I wondered that too but I don't think that the alu block would appreciate that

[viscid lake]

thats a good idea lowk

[wraith forum]

Yeah but how to mount the waterblock to the toolhead and the heatblock to the waterblock etc etc

[chrome depot]

~~You get my toolhead and I arrange that for you ~~

I can probably make you a heatsink

Either SLM or cnc'd, up to you

[nimble igloo]

EDMed

[chrome depot]

well EDM is harder to make an internal cavity

or well it is doable but you would need a true simultaneous 5 axis EDM with a curved electrode

[viscid lake]

self tapping heatbreaks

turn anything into a heatsink

someone patent that before stratasys gets it

[wraith forum]

Alternatively I just strap it to the heatsink with a bracket and let the thermal gradient do the rest.

[next jungle]

4 axis is enough if you have a hole thats large enough

[wraith forum]

We are at it again

printing the brackets that will brace the Cooling Blocks against the motors

not strictly needed for the NEMA 17 ones but definitely needed for the round NEMA 14

We'll see what the old PEI sheet + NPA has to say about PEEK

I knew I forgot something

This one hangs directly in front of the chamber hester during preheatimg

Now it hangs a bit more

I have M3 wingnuts I should probably use for this

[wraith forum]

Very pleased. Chamber fluctuated between 90ºC and 98ºC. Adhesion was coating-ripping good

[sage talon]

what's the part for?

[nimble igloo]

#1308910548066242621 message I assume

[wraith forum]

Brackets to hold the water cooling blocks down so I don't yank down a metal ziptie on the motor or waterblock body (back four parts, probably fine without them) and the same for the front part but for the extruder motor

[wraith forum]

got the water cooling stuff, now to figure out the routing of the tubes

[viscid cape]

can metal zipties be reused / undone

[sage talon]

yes

[sage talon]

you were right to do this

tried to metal zip tie a water block to the motor and it wont hold

[wraith forum]

Havent tried it yet

Kinda arguing with myself that a nylon ziptie is okay since its actively cooled

[sage talon]

once you tighten it, you kinda have to back it off a little for it to tighten

but at least they are reusable so I could just take it off

[wraith forum]

Mh right the ball bearing won't catch otherwise

I just need to file a ~0.3 mm notch on each side of the bracketssince the waterblocks are all oversized by around 0.5 mm

Oh and I can take these as shrinkage tests👀 nice

[sage talon]

oh yeah. I could try some peek zip ties

[wraith forum]

I mean no ones stopping me from just using bailing wire to twist these suckers on tight

[sage talon]

True

But that's not as funny

[viscid cape]

why doesnt it hold, is it because of thermal expansion? Do you use the tool made for the zipties to tighten it or by hand?

maybe you need a piece of something compressible between the ziptie and heatsink so it has a bit of room to compress and get that back-off effect

[gentle orbit]

wait until you see them crystallized

[wraith forum]

I wish I had time to sit down and tune the whole thing a bit. Right now its more like yoloing a filament profile for a print and going "eh, good enough"

I also got all the stuff for the watercooling ready but...no time. Maybe this weekend🤷