K1 High Temp Project

[mellow leaf]

It's exactly what it sounds like.

Progress so far

• Active heating: YES - Repurposed Sovol SV06 bed at the bottom of the chamber with a single 5015 to add som circulation. 220W of total power, controlled through Marlin separately from the K1.
• Insulation: PARTIAL Using some foil lined bubble wrap at the moment along the inside of the panels. Plan to order some aluminum or steel sheets along with spacers to install some rigid insulation.
• Baffling: NONE YET I will be adding baffling of some sort to try and separate the motion system from the heated chamber. Technically the graphite and brass bushings should be fine to well above 100C, so are a non issue.

We are currently hitting just over 70C with the insulation and secondary bed heating the chamber. Will update with photos and more progress as we go.

[mellow leaf]

Update:

We hit 78C.

I turned off the aux cooling partway through as it was too much. Currently running 100% toolhead cooling

I am amazed the webcam is alive.

@autumn dawn

It's like suddenly the ABS is PLA

[ivory elm]

Whoooow

[mellow leaf]

Yeah, I'm... not sure how I feel about it overall

It's like the calm before the storm.

Reprinting the rail carriage because I feel like the holes on it were undersized

[vague sierra]

Moment of tranquility. Nice

[mellow leaf]

The question is: how long will it work.

I am counting my stars because there is no way that the entire thing just chugs along as it is. Though I am confident that I've sufficiently isolated things

[autumn dawn]

oh, wow

[mellow leaf]

The steppers are staying well below 90C, frame (aside from the very front at the door) is staying below 60C, the MCU and SoC is below 80C

The toolhead is clearly fine operating in what is probably closer to 85C above the 100C bed

[autumn dawn]

you're using that air cooling system, right?

[mellow leaf]

No, this is just straight up enclosed

And then a bit of separation with that foil and bubble wrap

I've basically just wrapped it between the chamber and the frame/steppers

The frame exterior temperature is a solid 30C lower than inside

The steppers are attached right tight to the frame and appear to be heatsinking through it to the isolated sections, so they're running lower temp

[vague sierra]

The hotend cooling fan blows also on the toolhead board, right? Going by a faint memory of a disassembly video I've seen

[mellow leaf]

Correct, it pulls air through the toolhead board basically

And then forces it through the hotend heatsink then out the sides of the toolhead

So arguably it is getting the coolest air possible with where it's positioned, since it should pull air from the top/upper sides of the toolhead

The way I have the chamber set up the hottest section is the bottom, not the top

Any high temp materials I should order to try out? Guess I need a new bed first.

[vague sierra]

Slap some additional PI foils on

[ivory elm]

Trianglelabs sells a small sample spool of ultem if you want

[mellow leaf]

I'm probably going to order that Funssor bed first and their hotend too

The K1 hotend is not capable of more than 300C

[autumn dawn]

hm, i wonder if copper heatpipes could be used to speed up stepper cooling a bit more for higher chamber temps?

they're pretty cheap

same with the MCU and all that, since you're talking like they're inside the chamber?

[mellow leaf]

I'm not sure it's needed honestly

They're all well below concerning temps, they're sorta' isolated from the chamber through the insulation

[ivory elm]

they have another listing for the bed+magnet+heater+pei btw

[autumn dawn]

alright, just thought it might be useful for future upgrades if you start to run into issues

[mellow leaf]

Lining the inside of the chamber drastically reduced the temps of those components, but you're right I could definitely do that

If I run into issues or just want to potentially extend the lifespan of components it's a good idea

[autumn dawn]

what sort of mods have you done to get to this point?

[mellow leaf]

... Sorta nothing?

I threw the bed of a sovol in the bottom. It's sitting on top of some foil bubble wrap with 4 rubber feet from the bottom of the frame as a riser

I then have the toolhead cable along with a 5015 in the bottom to circulate air from under the bottom of that bed

I just have the power supply, ebox, and screen there to control the bed. Set it to 100 degree and 100% fans - good to go.

[autumn dawn]

so... it's just a stock printer, and it's fine. weird that creality never made their own ht enclosure

[mellow leaf]

I mean, it's too soon to call it fine.

But I think it's just a bunch of extra work per unit they don't want to do and they don't want to deal with the liability

Maybe there's a patent on insulation lining a printer

[autumn dawn]

that would be pretty ridiculous

[mellow leaf]

I mean.

Here we are.

Where you can patent having an enclosure on a printer

[autumn dawn]

yep! perfectly reasonable system.

[mellow leaf]

But seriously I don't know, all I know is that this system makes me mostly unconcerned about the frame getting too hot, or really any of the critical components minus the toolhead

And that is a whole $20 to fix.

The bed is physically limited to 135C, the chamber has insufficient power to even reach above 80C as it is, there is a separate PID'd control unit for the bed with a separate power supply which is acting as a heater (with associated safety control through Marlin)

Basically meaning that it should, knock on wood, be about as safe as I can get out of a DIY unit.

[autumn dawn]

hm, you know about those fire supression tubes?

[mellow leaf]

I do, but I also know about CO2 systems

Easy to rig into the top of the chamber and deploy should I need it

[autumn dawn]

oh, yeah, just assumed the tube would be easier

[mellow leaf]

Probably, also destructive - not that a fire isn't.

[autumn dawn]

i bet the enclosure will mostly contain any fires anyways

[mellow leaf]

The main flammable component in this case is the toolhead itself and the top lid which is polycarbonate

It maybe could hit autoignition for the insulation in the worst case?

[autumn dawn]

oof, maybe you should replace that top lid when you can

[mellow leaf]

Top lid, and again this is weird, heatsinks well to ambient air and stays below 60C

I can take some images with the thermal camera tomorrow for some examples of how the chamber/frame temps are and everything

[autumn dawn]

maybe you shouldn't even try to insulate it more, the temp limit seems like it'll add safety

[mellow leaf]

Yeah I like that it can't go above 80C as it is

[autumn dawn]

a little less efficient, but, oh well

[mellow leaf]

It's almost a perfect balance

Until it gets to 45C in the garage

I'll probably have to play around with what temps are necessary to maintain the appropriate enclosure temps then, but that's for the next bout of enthusiastic Derra

Anyone know what the temp limit on these things is? They don't seem to actually list it anywhere

But with the ceramic heater I worry that it's ~300C still

[vague sierra]

yeah 300°C these usually also only come with a 100k NTC

[ivory elm]

For my HT hotend I'm just gonna go with a copper volcano with HT thermistor

[vague sierra]

they also crack above some temp

[ivory elm]

Easy, cheap, reliable

[mellow leaf]

I just need to find something compatible with the carriage

[ivory elm]

copper spider block?

[mellow leaf]

For the K1C?

Or K1 sorry

[ivory elm]

dont they share mounting patterns

[mellow leaf]

Sorta, the heatsink is different

Yeah not sure there is much that is reasonably drop in for above 300C

The one TriangleLabs one does have a PT1000

But still a ceramic element

[acoustic fiber]

Make your own heater, like in the RepRap days

[ivory elm]

yeah the spider should be a drop in replacement

same 14mm spacing between the mounting screws and same heatbreak

you lose some flow but 🤷

it's HT. does that matter?

a copper spider block+heater cartridge+ HT thermistor would be really cheap

the biggest problem would be to redo the fan shroud and bed leveling sensor placement

[mellow leaf]

I think I have an old one of these... It's a V3 but might fit

[ivory elm]

Is it copper?

[mellow leaf]

Looked it up and do not think it is. Damn

[ivory elm]

I'm so surprised there's actually no copper sprite blocks on AliExpress

How is that possible

[arctic gull]

ooh you have a project post

[mellow leaf]

Foil board and aluminum tape acquired

[mellow leaf]

Sides lined

[ivory elm]

What's the max operating temp of these foil boards

[mellow leaf]

They're cardboard

And fire resistance rated so ~120C with the HVAC rating

[ivory elm]

Ooh nice

[mellow leaf]

Just finished.

[arctic gull]

oohhh i’m excited

no more buffer between rods and heated area?

[ivory elm]

And are you gonna do rockwool too or just leave it like this

[mellow leaf]

No one locally stocked the exact fiberboard I was after so I may leave it with this

Not sure yet

[ivory elm]

👍

[mellow leaf]

Gonna try to rely on just the corners not having as much ventilation to keep their temps down

[ivory elm]

Maybe the PE foam on the outside, and the cardboard on the inside

[mellow leaf]

Defeats the purpose, I am trying to keep the frame cool

[arctic gull]

i wonder what temperature the camera will die at

[mellow leaf]

Not 80C at least. Yet

[ivory elm]

I had my webcam start to die about a week into 70c

[mellow leaf]

I mean. I could maybe build a little shield for it too

[ivory elm]

I'm still using it as a webcam right now, but it's got lines running along it sometimes and the colour is off

[mellow leaf]

Try to keep it in the "isolated" area

[ivory elm]

I see some people so a peephole thing

[mellow leaf]

You can't see it but there is a path from the back exhaust fan between the panels and the insulation

[ivory elm]

Ooh nice

[mellow leaf]

We went from 35 to 65C...

In 3 minutes.

[arctic gull]

jesus

that’s insane

[mellow leaf]

Yeah I am a little scared now

[arctic gull]

what’s it at now

[mellow leaf]

https://www.mcmaster.com/product/63255K45

These may the solution to the Y bearings. 110C rated.

[arctic gull]

ooh

[mellow leaf]

Still at 65C, I am playing around with trying to just maintain 65C proper temps

[arctic gull]

25 bucks a bearing haha

[mellow leaf]

I stopped it because I don't really want it hitting much above 80 yet

[mellow leaf]

I'm sure there are cheaper options just using that for ideas

[ivory elm]

Fushi says their stuff works up to 120 and I'm kinda skeptical

[mellow leaf]

McMaster is easy to search

[mellow leaf]

If it's metal retainer it should be

[arctic gull]

yeah i was wondering how you were gonna control the temp

[ivory elm]

It's rubber

[mellow leaf]

Better than nylon I guess?

That's what makes these ones 80C rated

[mellow leaf]

Just gonna find a temp on the lower heater to set the chamber temp

[arctic gull]

yeah that works

[mellow leaf]

Or get near it. Top bed at 110 and lower at 80 and we sit around 70C chamber

[ivory elm]

I'd also consider doing 80c + IR lamps

[mellow leaf]

I do not want anything that outputs a lot.

IR lamps are out

The whole point of the project is to do this reasonably safely

[ivory elm]

Shame those clone aluminium encased polymer bushings aren't available in lm8uu

They're about 2.50 per bushing

[mellow leaf]

75C with the lower bed at 80C and top bed at 110C

And still rising

I think we could hit 90C tonight. Will play around in a bit and see what happens.

[arctic gull]

damnnn

impressive

[mellow leaf]

80C chamber and rising

Calling it there. 80C is as high as I want to go without the higher temp stuff and swapping to Bowden

[arctic gull]

hoooly shit that’s awesome

[ivory elm]

Yeah. 80c is when everything starts to die 😔

This is awesome

[vague sierra]

You made that look very easy😁

[mellow leaf]

That's what worries me most lol

[vague sierra]

(looking at the pile of car body insulation and corrugated PC panels)

[acoustic fiber]

You're just a pro

[mellow leaf]

Absolutely not

The fact this all worked out as well as it did is nothing short of a bloody miracle lol

[acoustic fiber]

If we make an ∫ of the amount of working printers over time, you'll be very high up in the rankings

[flat flint]

Ooo

[vague sierra]

Will we see more slaughtered repurposed sv06 parts fueled projects in the future?

[acoustic fiber]

https://tenor.com/view/senator-palpatine-anakin-skywalker-phantom-menace-gif-10607636

[vague sierra]

Full Hash printer build solely from the sv06 parts.

[mellow leaf]

@spring nexus Help my wife found my project post

(hi wife please don't smother me with a pillow in my sleep)

[spring nexus]

[acoustic fiber]

This just means a deeper level of understanding for your commitment to making a toaster oven with printing functionality

[spring nexus]

I don't think I'll ever understand his hyperfixations

[acoustic fiber]

Is this a hyperfixation already?

[acoustic fiber]

Good. Now, when a HT design from ground up?

[mellow leaf]

Probably as soon as I am actually printing PPSU. If I can manage to print parts with that I can aim for 160C chamber

[cunning grove]

PPSU? 😳

[arctic gull]

printing power supply units

trust me

i’m a high temp expert

[cunning grove]

no me

[ivory elm]

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mq7BTLO

Found lm8uu

So fkn expensive compared to the lm10uu one tho

[arctic gull]

how many do you need?

[acoustic fiber]

Just run a graphite + brass self lubricating bushing, smh

[mellow leaf]

I was surprised how high temp those are

I think 180C?

Which is what X uses

[acoustic fiber]

Depends on the acceptable wear rate, but yeah, around that

[mellow leaf]

I'm aiming to just build the chamber within the K1 frame so ideally the Y axis will have bellows

[flat flint]

good luck

[acoustic fiber]

Buing bellows, or making a fun sewing project?

[mellow leaf]

Funny, I was just looking at fiberglass cloth earlier

PTFE coated cloth seemed reasonably flexible and non breathable for the chamber itself but I think I should probably opt for proper bellows on the rods

Otherwise opt for HT bushings on the Y axis rods

Silicone also seemed good and would be easily sealable against a pps printed bracket as they bond well

[acoustic fiber]

You want it breathable a bit, otherwise your bellows can work like the real deal for blacksmiths

[mellow leaf]

I don't think I am sealing it that well but yep I did consider the legit bellow effect lol

[mellow leaf]

What are your thoughts on semi rigid PTFE fiberglass inner wall that basically touches the outer edges of the bed? Using the bed as a seal. I know it will effectively be an air pump but just need to build it with that in mind to let air move between the sections without pressurizing

[vague sierra]

Using the bellows to pump cool air through the motion system part of the printer🙏

[acoustic fiber]

Should work. I'd prefer edge seals or something like that, but I'd have to look into exact design

[mellow leaf]

That's on the roadmap 😉

Should let me do 110C chamber on the inside while leaving the frame and motion system cool

As long as the Y axis stays cool we're good

The X is fine to that temp

[mellow leaf]

Okay, so thinking of different ways to design bellows

[arctic gull]

ooh

[mellow leaf]

I think I want to do a sorta' conveyor/curtain of PTFE coated fiberglass for the walls of the chamber

Just trying to think of a way to either have it roll with a recoil mechanism or if I can use anchor points on the bed mounts to push/pull a drawstring of sorts

[arctic gull]

i’m lost in the sauce but good luck lol

[mellow leaf]

Basically a folded over piece of fiberglass cloth. One on left/right/rear - leave the front open and seal it against the door

Theoretically I can keep the entire thing in the upper section and mount a rod spanning just below where the rods/toolhead are to keep them out of the way

And then use those rods to mount rollers for the curtain

Otherwise I could mount a couple panels of that and print some PPS wipers to seal against it and rely on that seal as the bed moves up/down. The downside to this method is that it requires me to keep the mounts and whatnot exposed - with anchoring curtains on top I can pull them down with the bed and effectively seal everything minus the build plate

(This is all just from brain cad so point out any issues you notice - I will accept any and all criticisms)

Oh, and the curtain system lets me integrate paths for chamber circulation/side mounted auxiliary blowers that are externally driven

Argh. No, I can't think of a reasonable way to mount that sorta' idea in the rear without significant changes, so panels and wipers it is.

[mellow leaf]

Sleepy Derra drawning of the evening for panels

I'll build semi or full rigid panels (haven't decided exactly on material yet), broken up into sections to allow for the bed mounts to poke through. I'll still need bellows on the toolhead to seal the top of the chamber

To keep the bed sealed against the edges I'll use PTFE coated fiberglass cloth with a wiper seal that rides against it wherever possible and then bellows on the three bed mounts

for some reason I drew the bottom panel actually at the bottom but it would be mounted to the bottom of the bed. There is a small gap there currently that houses the leveling sensor electronics - I can move them out of there to keep them away from the heat

[ivory elm]

this is looking to be a better and better idea by the day

[mellow leaf]

70C is the max comfortable temp for the toolhead board. While I was able to print at 80C I was getting driver overtemp warnings. I will look at building a Bowden driven toolhead utilizing the original extruder and then look at either a watercooled or passive cooled hotend

And then an external driven aux fan parts cooling and chamber circulation

[orchid geyser]

have you seen this yet? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007536898920.html

[mellow leaf]

AHHHHHHHH

I had not!

[worldly basin]

time to unburden your wallet of its last few bills

[mellow leaf]

I was literally just trying to think of a way to do that. Downside is that is not the Unicorn style but I will still look into it

[orchid geyser]

it's made for the unicorn

[mellow leaf]

Oh hey, the heatsink looked like the non unicorn one

Nice!

.... wrong reply.

[worldly basin]

nice

[mellow leaf]

That might reduce toolboard temperatures too.

I could probably run a higher chamber temp overall then

[shut falcon]

Definitely gonna cause a house fire

[worldly basin]

its no fun if something doesnt catch fire at least once

[shut falcon]

admins might ban projects like this

[worldly basin]

what if its a mod "admin" doing the project

[shut falcon]

Still

[mellow leaf]

Do elaborate.

I would love to hear how you think it could be improved safety wise.

[shut falcon]

It cant

[mellow leaf]

How so?

Where is the hazard?

[shut falcon]

You just cant modify a K1 to be used with such high temps

[mellow leaf]

Right. Based on...?

[shut falcon]

The original product was designed for non chamber heating

and there are many original parts left

[mellow leaf]

Here, let's make it easier: where is the fire hazard.

If you are going to call it a house fire waiting to happen, back it up.

We have a thermally fused heater, far safer than the PTC chamber heaters that either the Qidis or the Bambus use

We have fire rated insulation

We have frame components with an HDT of 100+C

So respectfully, take your misinformed opinion out of my project post unless you have something real to add. I will take actual feedback into consideration.

[shut falcon]

Does the belts stand against those temps ?

[mellow leaf]

If they did not they would not be in there.

They are good to 135C.

[shut falcon]

Have you actually went through the list of each part used in the original printer and made sure that they are good ?

[mellow leaf]

Name a single component you think is truly a concern.

That is a fire hazard.

[shut falcon]

idk

It can be anything used in that printer

[mellow leaf]

Then with all due respect, keep it to yourself.

[shut falcon]

Ok

[stable sparrow]

@mellow leaf it's a house fire waiting to happen because I don't think you believe in it enough

[stable sparrow]

you want a house fire waiting to happen?

here's peeky

[mellow leaf]

Peeky is a work of art

[stable sparrow]

1200W going through this system

[mellow leaf]

How dare you

Here I am with a paltry 500W

My toaster has more power

[stable sparrow]

Watts scale with how hard you believe

Believe harder and you too will break a kilowatt

[vague sierra]

If it would be a voron you added chamber heating to, it would be a different story

[acoustic fiber]

Because you've been plugging it into 110 V outlets, not 240 V

[mellow leaf]

2KW HERE I COME!

[acoustic fiber]

That's the spirit

It's bigger than PEEKy so it needs more power

[vague sierra]

Dumping all the chamber heating you'll ever need in a second

[mellow leaf]

Extruder gears replaced, also replaced the hotend for the Unicorn style one as it definitely has a better heatbreak design. The old hotend fan seemed pretty rough rolling so replaced that too- new one is more audible so thinking the old one was failing

[little heron]

Still working on this?

[mellow leaf]

Haven’t touched it in a while unfortunately! I am planning to do an overhaul of the unit, just has not been high on my priority list.