wooting (@WootingKB) on X

[random edge]

hi

[autumn rover]

hi

[steel marsh]

🔥

[buoyant pebble]

Open Beta? Pffff how about Closed Alpha! Register interest here
https://discord.com/channels/167181566978555904/1260899053068353636

[ivory lark]

I’m confused. Doesn’t Rappy Snappy also use time based SOCD for when both keys are fully pressed?

Is it not a depth and time based SOCD approach?

[arctic solar]

did Wooting get caught a little with their pants down :p

[ivory lark]

No. Time based SOCD isn’t the issue with Razer’s implementation, it’s that it counter strafes for you. I didn’t see that mentioned in Wooting’s thread but that’s what the issue is.

It’s also not an issue that Razer’s board offers this feature, it was the response or lack of by ESL.

As it should’ve been banned immediately (not the board, but the feature alone).

[paper dove]

not by default

the default is no resolution.

[ivory lark]

not by default meaning there will be a setting to enable that?

[paper dove]

as far as i understood it yes

[ivory lark]

I think it should’ve been specified very clearly in the thread that Wooting’s approach is not the same as Razer’s because it does not counter strafe for you.

Taking a stance on time based SOCD when you offer an option to enable it for your own feature is odd, (imo).

[gaunt furnace]

It’s counter strafing for you?

[ivory lark]

That’s what it is? The board is sending out inputs the user did not initiate.

It’s not just ending A or D when the other is pressed.

[gaunt furnace]

@golden vessel tested a board, from what he reported, its basic last input SOCD with Rapid trigger influencing it

It’s not pressing the opposite key on release for example

[crisp kindle]

I mean there were cheating concerns for some wooting features with osu, seems like to me this is just the same type of thing. All up to the players to be honest based on what games they play

[inland anchor]

Aligner is confusing drunkdeers tap last key feature with razers i think. Razers isn't auto counter strafing for you

[crisp kindle]

From what i've read it just prevents pressing both a and d at once

[inland anchor]

yeah it's functionally like how rappy snappy would work if you solely configured it one specific way

[crisp kindle]

Idk seems like a nothingburger but i just play PVE games what do i know

[inland anchor]

I think it's more a concern for CS2 because counterstrafing is seen as a skill there and if a feature removes an entire skill from the game then it might not be what they want

[crisp kindle]

Just ban fancy keyboards in esports tournaments, problem fixed

[ivory lark]

I am yeah. So Razer’s implementation is just time based SOCD?

[inland anchor]

they might honestly. Right now only one tourney provider has said they were ok with it, not the rest

similar features were banned in the past

[little ridge]

What features?

[inland anchor]

null movement scripts

[crisp kindle]

It's an easy solution, at the same time the whole hardware advantage debate's just starting to get annoying. I play forza online and forza motorsports reduces everyone's refresh rate online to 60hz because of console players so that pc doesn't have a reaction time advantage with hi refresh rate monitors.

[little ridge]

Is it before cs source or after cs source era?

[crisp kindle]

What are we gonna do next force players to use specific graphics settings?

[inland anchor]

it's been used in csgo, i can't remember if people did it in source or not

[little ridge]

Using performance or quality options

[little ridge]

Only reason they lock it to 60hz. Because their ingame physics are tied to fps

[golden vessel]

How Razer Snap Tab works.

It basically only rely on the digital value and so is the same as SOCD prioritising the last pressed key. For example if "A" is fully pressed and then "D", "A" gets deactivated as soon as "D" reaches it actuation point. If Rapid Trigger is enabled "D" gets disabled and "A" gets activated again if "D" slighlty gets released if the Rapid Trigger sensitivity is reached. So if "D" is slightly pressed and slightly released both keys alternate in a quick manner. ||But if now "D" is fully pressed while "A" is slightly released and pressed again "D" keeps being activated. In that case "A" needs to be lifted above its reset point in order that becomes the last pressed key. So whatever key is pressed first it's like Rapid Trigger don't get applied to that one after the other Snap Tab key is pressed.||

Tested on a Razer Huntsman V3 Pro TKL on v1.04.00_r1.

[crisp kindle]

I mean it was a thing in forza horizon and honestly it was within margin of error unless you cared about leaderboards...

Doesn't impact online races https://youtu.be/p6doHF3nP94?si=O0mmOAsycZjGMe-M

I mean technically in online races the player with a higher framerate can get slowed on bumpy tracks? But forza motorsports is literally all on road racing

[ivory lark]

You would be able to use Wooting’s Rappy Snappy exactly like this if you always bottom out both switches (be it at 4.0mm, 3.5mm or with travel limiters), right?

[crisp kindle]

i just think people take shit too seriously honestly. It's just games

[inland anchor]

hitbox has a good write up on how socd works and the different ways it can be configured https://www.hitboxarcade.com/blogs/support/what-is-socd

[crisp kindle]

I get it for leaderboards or big esports tournaments but in casual online play people need to chill oit

[ivory lark]

Going off of this.

[golden vessel]

I don't know exactly what secondary decider are in place for the Wooting and what options you have. I would assume so but I actually don't know because I haven't tested Rappy Snappy myself yet.

Update: If both keys are pressed equally both seem to be registered.

It just happen to be that I tested a Razer Huntman V3 Pro TKL board.

[ivory lark]

I see. I guess it would depend on how big the area is where two keys are considered at the same depth. If it’s “big” it would be exactly like time based SOCD but if not, it’d require precision to achieve the same effect.

[golden vessel]

This likely depends on the Rapid Trigger sensitivity.

[ivory lark]

Oh, now that’s interesting.

[golden vessel]

Rappy Snappy only kicks in if both keys are enabled anyway while the highest analog value would be the decider.

I would imagine the difference must be at least the Rapid Trigger sensitivity and that otherwise both are handled equally. But this is just a guess.

Keep in mind that I don't have the Wooting Team role. 😉

[ivory lark]

It’s a good guess, it’d make sense.

[ivory lark]

Of course.

We’ll see soon enough. 😊

[inland anchor]

custom socd is a complicated thing to explain to people. Calder or whoever has to do it is going to have fun recording that video lol

[vale ginkgo]

From my understanding through documentation and the description they gave it was simply two keys pressed at the same time the one that is pressed further down is the prioritized one. I haven't read the whole convo here so my apologies if this was said.

I don't think it's much more complicated than that

priotizied one = deactivate the other

[ivory lark]

When the two keys are at the same depth is where it becomes interesting.

[vale ginkgo]

and I believe the difference is that razers deactivates the other the moment another is pressed

[ivory lark]

Interesting and or complicated.

[vale ginkgo]

regardless of how far down it is

would it not just prioritize the first key pressed at that point?

[ivory lark]

Razer is solely time based SOCD.

[vale ginkgo]

afterall you haven't presed the other one yet for it to send any signals

far enough down

[inland anchor]

the real question is how customizable is rappy snappy beyond the default behaviour. That's what we'll see in the beta I guess

because as explained by the hitbox article, you can get really funky with the different resolutions

[ivory lark]

Exactly, that’s what Tony said might be an option: #1260987595563864216 message

[vale ginkgo]

If the second key can't replace the first key until it passes the actuation

[ivory lark]

So Razer is time based only and Rappy Snappy would be both.

[vale ginkgo]

I don't think it matters if they're at the same actuation

it makes sense it'd prioritize the first because it hasn't even been told there's a second yet

since the second hasn't passed the first

my SOCD knowledge is low so again I apologize if i'm not making sense

[ivory lark]

I see what you mean but then if A is bottomed out and D is pressed, D would be ignored and A would continue to be active. That’d be quite annoying I think.

[vale ginkgo]

that's how it differs though and what prevents it from being questionable in esports

it still offers benefit because it's faster

actually I just confused myself a bit further now because what's the point in this at all if rapid trigger is 0.15mm

it instantly deactivates the key anyway?

[inland anchor]

honestly the cs2 community may still ban the feature even using wootings version

[ivory lark]

I don’t think that’ll be the case. I think when both are bottomed out by default it’d activate both and with the option Tony talked about it’d only activate the last one, like time based SOCD. This is my guess.

[inland anchor]

their whole problem is they don't want any hardware improved counter strafing because being able to counter strafe at a high rate is a defining skill for the game, so even wootings version could cross that line

[vale ginkgo]

there are some things you can do in autoexec that auto counter strafe

[ivory lark]

It would, yeah.

[vale ginkgo]

and wooting already has auto counterstrafe with advanced keys ofc not as good

but it does exist

[inland anchor]

yeah those things are banned in tourneys and such, it's something the cs pros were discussing as to why razers snap tap should be banned

[vale ginkgo]

the reason that the advanced key auto counter strafe doesn't work that well is because ping messes with your timing at least it has in my case

[ivory lark]

This is cheating in every game by the way. DKS, MOD TAP etc are all not allowed

[vale ginkgo]

yeah macros aren't allowed either and they're bundled with many major kb brands

it's not uncommon for kbs to have banned features

Is something like this even something they could detect in a banwave outside of lan?

the way it works makes it feel very difficult to me

[ivory lark]

this would confirm default behavior

[ivory lark]

I don’t think so.

[vale ginkgo]

yeah that's what I figured

it's what I was saying earlier

[ivory lark]

It wouldn’t activate the first key. It’d activate both.

[vale ginkgo]

this is a tricky slope you have to be careful with when it comes to lan tourneys because if a function isn't detectable they'll ban the device itself to be sure

that's the opposite of what the post you just sent said

oh you mean bottoming out

[ivory lark]

This is what that’d confirm.

Yeah, that’s what I was referring to.

[vale ginkgo]

gotcha

[ivory lark]

Most of the top boards of recent times all have options for on board macros or something along those lines so I hope not.

[vale ginkgo]

macros can be detected to an extent

it depends on how crazy you get with them

[remote anvil]

I did not read everything

does this also mean flaretech?

[golden vessel]

Yes, in a limited way it should come to all. Similar to Rapid Trigger.

[tame storm]

just ban every keeb and make them stick with membrane at LAN

based

[little ridge]

This is crime

[tame storm]

we will use woot razer or smth at home kek

[knotty nymph]

Just cancel the event at that point

[ivory lark]

https://x.com/wootingkb/status/1811636936999862363?s=46&t=uFrAs-7GGUduYiIB1-Qdbw If Rappy Snappy is not a combination of both depth based and time based SOCD (as this thread makes it seem), has Rappy Snappy been tested to give an advantage? If it is solely depth based SOCD, it’d require practice (hovering a key instead of bottoming out) and precision to take proper advantage of, with that advantage being very minimal. 😬

How about a Wooting 60TE, customizable but distinguishable from a regular 60HE. A board with solely the most basic features like an adjustable actuation point and Rapid Trigger that isn’t easily tampered with. I haven’t seen something like it before in esports and maybe there’s a reason for it but it’d be worth to try, IMO. The (anti-) cheating stances do not make any sense to me as it hinders innovation greatly. If that was the stance early on, we wouldn’t have DKS, Mod Tap and even Rapid Trigger.

Rant andy but whatever, I think I make a point. 😂😭
(TE = Tournament Edition)*

[remote anvil]

@steady arch write this down

[steady arch]

Oh no, absolutely not
People were enough confused by 60HE vs 60HE+, introducing TE will not only confuse people even more, but also those who bought 60HE/+ might feel left out

[solar fjord]

Is there a link explaining what rappy tappy is? I just heard about this feature and update

[ivory lark]

I don’t think a TE should be sold, instead it’d be solely for pro players/teams. It’s essentially a worse product than the 60HE+ is. 😅

[ivory lark]

This thread explains it quite well, although it’s a bit of a read: https://x.com/wootingkb/status/1811425339697996247?s=46&t=uFrAs-7GGUduYiIB1-Qdbw

[steady arch]

So that'd be something like so if I understood the tweet correctly https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1219653840102494300/1261224581394337834/stvsrsv2.png

[paper dove]

the A for rappy snappy would start whenever the A curve goes down

other than that it looks right

[steady arch]

It does not activate the key which is pressed the furthest though?

[paper dove]

no as in on the left side of your graph A is stated as pressed when both A and D are topped out and thus not pressed

[steady arch]

Oh, I see

So it'd be like this https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1219653840102494300/1261226851179958332/stvsrsv4.png

[remote anvil]

and version b will be with rt

[steady arch]

It hurts my brain to even think how to draw it with RT

[placid crystal]

https://tenor.com/view/ok-okay-yes-awkward-all-right-gif-22860174

Literally me trying to understand either lol

[ivory lark]

Wooting’s Rappy Snappy shows different behavior when both keys are bottomed out compared to not bottomed out but at the same depth, it’s accurate enough though.

[steady arch]

Given you will be able choose SOCD behaviour when both keys are on the same depth, I didn't want to include it on the graph

Here's the latest version https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1219653840102494300/1261246998263107625/rsv8.png

[ivory lark]

It doesn’t seem like such an option will come with RS, at least not currently.

[ivory lark]

Wouldn’t snap tap have “A” activated there too? As “D” is in an upstroke?

[steady arch]

Well, that's the difference between Rappy Snappy and Snap Tap - Snap Tap reacts only to passing actuation point, it doesn't matter how deep you press the key below actuation point
On the contrary with Rappy Snappy it does matter how deep you'll press the key

[ivory lark]

Eh, Snap Tap has Rapid Trigger too, right?? 😅

The moment “D” is slightly released, as shown in your graph, it’d deactivate leaving only “A” active.

[paper dove]

if you combine it with rt yes

but its not necessary

making a graph for a moving actuation point target is really not easy or even possible prob

[ivory lark]

In combination with RT is what makes it as powerful as it is.

A graph would only be possible if you show when a key is active and when it’s deactivated, like Analog Monitor for example.

[gaunt furnace]

We removed SOCD option at end of press to prevent confusion, depending on how this debate turns out we will return it and/or separate it.

The SOCD was originally for fighting games.

[ivory lark]

This pains me man..

[jovial sonnet]

Shouldn't it be up to game developers to make this call? This just stops innovation..

[inland anchor]

Ah so it was originally an optional setting like I was guessing from the language

I read Zekken has already been using it in valorant since he’s razer sponsored, so it’ll be interesting to see if riot say anything about it or relook into it like they did with rapid trigger

Hopefully this is discussed in the inevitable upcoming wooting video on rappy snappy and socd. I was wondering where the option to change socd resolution was in rappy snappy

[ivory lark]

I guess the expectation is that games will feel more comfortable allowing Woot’s implementation than Razer’s but that’s a tough bet.

[steady arch]

Ah, bummer I thought it was removed only for alpha... But I can see the reasoning behind it

[jovial sonnet]

Dynamic keystrokes also already exist and this gives 4 actions per key yet this isn't cheating lol

If tournaments are allowing Snap Tap I don't see what the issue is. Game developers will need to govern this, not engineers.

[ivory lark]

What is or isn’t cheating is, at the end of the day, determined by the game (how one feels about it morally doesn’t matter). DKS is considered cheating as most games have a rule which disallows binding multiple keys to one. I think it’d be far more likely that we see a rule which (dis)allows SOCD overrides in general than a rule which disallows solely Razer’s Snap Tap.

The distancing from Razer’s Snap Tap and the stance against time based SOCD is odd to me as Rappy Snappy would’ve partially been time based SOCD as well had it not been for the criticism Razer has received.

[jovial sonnet]

It would be great if Wooting could just provide game developers with the option to disable specific features. By doing so, Wooting can foster positive partnerships and also continue to push innovation, making everyone happier. FYI ESL did approve snap tap https://x.com/michau9_/status/1810956975993172151?t=07TfJ_SrZDsd5c-MC_aqyA

Michal Slowinski (@michau9_) on X

@STYKOcs @y4mz_ @nicxCS This keyboard is allowed in ESL tournaments.

Twitter · Jul 10, 2024, 8:39 AM

[gaunt furnace]

We can easily return it, but first let’s see how things develop.

If Razer’s Snap Tap is officially allowed, we can just make a separate SOCD feature with a better implementation (we found a usability bug in razer).

SOCD with Rappy Snappy is then also back on the table.

SOCD with Rappy snappy works different from standard SOCD, it’s only in effect when they are both on the end key position.

[ivory lark]

“Officially”, is only ESL considered?

Tournament rules vary and anyone hosting could allow or disallow either.

[gaunt furnace]

Just takes 1

[ivory lark]

Why isn’t DKS, Mod Tap and Toggle Key held to that same standard(?). All the above would be in direct violation of the rules in games like Fortnite and Apex for example.

[remote anvil]

i have never heard people having problems with dks in apex or csgo.

with problems I mean bans

[jovial sonnet]

It's more a question of ethics for them

[jovial sonnet]

Since ESL approved it, we can end this discussion or am I missing something? What are the next steps?

[ivory lark]

First Picture - Second Picture

All the mentioned above fall under macros, key sequencing or multiple keys in one. This is not moral cheating, it is against the rules cheating when used.

These rules are used in RL too iirc

It’s not comparing apples to oranges if that’s what you thought. It’s apples to apples.

[gaunt furnace]

To clarify, we are not restricting feature implementation purely on the basis of it’s considered cheating or not. We make them based on utility and kept out the most obvious (elaborate macro).

DKS doesn’t need to be setup as a macro.
Toggle, is it a macro or a key behavior?
Mod Tap ^ and aimed at productivity.

That said we will also release “hot key” to allow multi bind keys to quickly access functions. Also aimed at productivity.

I’m personally not a fan of the ethical debate in relation to our features on our keyboard. There are some general rules and game dependent rules.

When* we make a feature such as Rappy Snappy and it is aimed at using it in-game, then we do need to consider the cheating debate.

Im honestly also figuring out what is right or wrong as we go. The above is just a general consensus till so far.

[drowsy marsh]

RS beta out tomorrow? Setup thru wootility?

[vale ginkgo]

Under that same logic with DKS it is true that it doesn't need to be setup as a macro, couldn't you argue the same with rappy snappy? It doesn't need to be setup further than the default of what we have now but could still have the options.

I think what alligner was trying to say is that in the same way that DKS by itself doesn't break any rules it can be made to break rules and the same could be considered for rappy snappy

Mostly a point that I don't see any further issue adding all of the configurations for the same reason DKS has them.

DKS has configurations that make it bannable in OSU but it's up to the individual user to understand the rules of the game they're playing and razer is a great example of this with the built in macros to synapse.

[ivory lark]

DKS’ intended use is considered cheating in the games I mentioned above (which includes the game it was showcased in) and the same goes for Toggle Key. Mod Tap wasn’t showcased in an in-game scenario so utility being its intended use is understandable.

Rappy Snappy’s optional time based SOCD was intended for fighting games, which to me, makes it directly comparable to Mod Tap. A feature intended for utility but can be “misused” to cheat with.

I believe that

• Competitive play is not only a competition between players but also between cheat and anti-cheat.

• It is the sole responsibility of the game and/or tournament host to enforce its rules and ensure fair play.

• Easily accessible features that violate the rules of a game or tournament only result in more thorough anti-cheat measures thus a healthier environment.

• The more widely available a feature is, the more likely it is to be allowed in competitive play. Potentially positively enhancing all players’ abilities and pushing the scene forward.

• Stances this strong, claiming partial responsibility for the “integrity of FPS games” and indirectly calling Razer’s Snap Tap “hardware-assisted cheating” before any official statement from ESL was published are likely to bite you back in the future.

Others may not share my opinions but I do have to say; this comes from someone who has managed to take advantage of DKS in nearly all games he played which was and still is considered cheating in most. Morally, DKS is not cheating to me as the learning curve is significant but it is still cheating. 😉

[vale geyser]

If Razer is allowed to implement this feature then you should definetly follow up since its huge for cs

[silent crescent]

I would just like to add that using joystick inputs, you can already get the no down time jiggles in overwatch because of one of the SOCD handling options called "snappy joystick"

it uses the highest magnitude value being pressed, but also uses last input wins SOCD, so you can hold down A and spam D, I've been doing this for a long time in overwatch lol

[woven fjord]

thats simply not true. dks, & mod tap have been allowed in fortnite since some time in chapter 2. mind you its not chap 5.

i vividly remember this and can instantly find the proof since i remember this actually being a debate when razer and wooting were the first to come out with smth like dks

and i was very interested obv since i was and still am involved in comp

[woven fjord]

right?? im assuming theyre just setting up the announcement that it is in the works

[woven fjord]

it is not "multi key sequencing". it is one key separated into 4 potential inputs, as if it was "multiple keys"

why am i explaining this to you like its 2021-2022

[ivory lark]

At that time it wasn’t, when I played it wasn’t, when I rechecked the rules a while back it wasn’t. If it was stated then my bad, I missed that but I would like to see it first. If you will.

[woven fjord]

it was never not allowed.

it was up in the air, they had to clarify that it was fine

[ivory lark]

As I stated, I’ve been using DKS since it was released. I know what it is and does. Multiple keys on one isn’t allowed, performing complex actions with a single key isn’t allowed. DKS falls under macroing or key sequencing.

[woven fjord]

it was the exact same time that they clarified that scroll wheel on the controller shit was not bannable either

[woven fjord]

sure

[ivory lark]

or if there is a pro that publicly uses DKS that’d suffice too.

[woven fjord]

looking for what i said, its very old stuff so its taking longer than i thought to find lol

[woven fjord]

i also havent heard any1 using that tho

but pros also arnt very vocal at all on their periphs

so if a pro uses a wooting most likely the only reason anyone would know is bc a handcam has shown it

let alone very specific settings

[ivory lark]

Np, if/when you find it just tag me. I don’t mind if it’s today or in a week 😂😂 I’m genuinely interested too if that was stated.

[woven fjord]

same goes for mousepads and mice, the only way any are known for most pros is by being noticed

[woven fjord]

i gottchu <3

[ivory lark]

Same, I use(d) DKS for editing with one button, it took skill but it was quite insane.

[woven fjord]

same

same

i used dks for double edit

free double edit

lmfao

[ivory lark]

😂😂

[woven fjord]

dummy fast

😭

[ivory lark]

You can do a lot with it but I don’t play fn anymore.

[woven fjord]

been using for years n years, took a bit to get re adjusted when my wooting port broke

ima get the 80he, but ever since i had to swap off a wooting again, double editing has been so much slower bc it add relys on ping now 😭

dks jus ignored alla that 😭

[woven fjord]

fr

ify

[ivory lark]

😂😂 I think that’s why it’s still cheating.

😉

[woven fjord]

lmfaooo

[ivory lark]

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/730/view/6500469346429600836 you called the competitor a cheat, now all of your own implementations are deemed a cheat. Who could’ve guessed? What’s the game plan now?

[ivory lark]

Who is this guy?