🔧│keyboard_modding

[fluid ravine]

yoink

[flat cobalt]

This I believe @daring helm

[harsh dove]

Yeah it is

[flat cobalt]

They’re both good I like the Pros because of the sound personally

[daring helm]

sooo

[celest violet]

Does anyone have a red case for the 60he+?

[daring helm]

what would be a good frankenswitch

[celest violet]

Cool

[flat cobalt]

Up

[daring helm]

the geon raw hes are really good imo

im running them with a cheap holy60 resin clone

and foamless

[flat cobalt]

Yeh lots of fans for them here

[daring helm]

foamless gives the true sound of the switch apparently

[flat cobalt]

I’m waiting for my 80he for now on my current 60He I just have regular jades

[daring helm]

bruh doing this with 0.5mm rapid trigger is mind wracking

its like im going to make a mistake any moment for no apparent reason

[fluid ravine]

foamless gang yurrr

[fluid ravine]

interesting case

[daring helm]

it costs like 10 usd on taobao

[fluid ravine]

oh shi fr?

very interesting

you have a picture of your board

curious on what it looks like

[daring helm]

my keyboard isnt actually a wooting but i do own a wooting uwu so

wait lemme send a picture

[daring helm]

the whole build ended up being really cheap for a hall effect board

[fluid ravine]

venom?

[daring helm]

why is it tucked in bed?

[stone flax]

he’s sleepy :3

[fluid ravine]

venom is very sleep :3

[stone flax]

sayo

[fluid ravine]

ah

[stone flax]

theres rgb

[fluid ravine]

oh mb

[daring helm]

if the pcb breaks i wouldnt really mind since its like 30 usd

[fluid ravine]

lol didnt even look

[stone flax]

[fluid ravine]

oh shi we going cheap cheap

[daring helm]

if it does im going to replace it with a venom

the software the sayodevice has is so bad

rapid trigger settings doesnt switch with profiles so thats why i have 0.5mm on all the alpha keys

SayoDevice K64H3MZ V2-R

[daring helm]

yeah

[fluid ravine]

i usually just use ^ instead lol

[dreamy drum]

@glacial wind @deft wing

time to learn how to pull a switch with my fingers

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/154653240632279040/1026388054736375878/1663292409338945.gif

[stone flax]

6?

[dreamy drum]

6x10

[stone flax]

yeah

ik

this for 60he?

[dreamy drum]

oh yeah

[stone flax]

ur missing some

Lol

[dreamy drum]

ur missing one*

i'll just not have a new switch for one of the 61 keys it has

[stone flax]

[split dagger]

Its easy to learn

I do it all the time

[dreamy drum]

spill some technique 👀

[split dagger]

Just pinch and pull

Your finger may bleed a bit tho

[dreamy drum]

Hahahaha, word sounds like a plan

[calm pulsar]

😭

[split dagger]

Its alr tho when I got keycaps for the first time I took the originals off with my fingers and they bled

[split dagger]

I sat there just ripping off all the keycaps that where originally on the board

[dreamy drum]

i feel like keycaps are a lot easier to remove by hand than a switch 😂

i too had to do that when i took them off for the first time hahaha

honestly works better than a keycap puller sometimes

[split dagger]

Depends on the scenario

[ionic breach]

blood patina

very nice

[marsh saffron]

They would be wrong

Unless you are a demented ape no

Just don't be stupid and it's easy

Use a switch puller, or take the plate off and pop them out like that

I did it without a tutorial first time just fine

It's extremely hard to fuck up

[steel hemlock]

Wouldn’t this highkey be worth even if I already have regular jades?

[marsh saffron]

No

Maxes suck, there's a reason they are selling them

They have bad friction issues

[steel hemlock]

The seller just sell a lot of different keyboard stuff in my region

He’s selling pros for 48$

[ionic breach]

he is selling it and taking a loss for a reason

[marsh saffron]

The maxes have terrible friction issues

[steel hemlock]

I mean the only thing I saw about the maxes was the hype when they were coming out

[ionic breach]

its batch specific so that might not have it

[steel hemlock]

Pros are apparently rly good tho

[ionic breach]

but its a risk ur taking

[marsh saffron]

Until people got them, and everybody doesn't like them

[steel hemlock]

Also that maxes came unlubed

Yeah fair

[marsh saffron]

Pros are good, maxes are a no go

[steel hemlock]

Enough difference to upgrade from regular jades tho?

I’d assume not

[glacial wind]

honestly yes if you're sensitive to stem wobble

but if not then don't worry about it

[steel hemlock]

Yeahhh I don’t think I am lol

I think I need to fix my rattly spacebar or lube my jades before I think of spending more money

Cause I’m already satisfied enough

Thanks!

[deft wing]

WELCOME TO THE CULT

[glacial wind]

uh oh, optimum tech case 308mm, i think my old 60% keyboard carry case is 305mm

[flat cobalt]

https://youtu.be/vGU59uv9h1g?si=5-dbUqUVPO6hHOID

[glacial wind]

i guess this is their follow up to the previous retro one

nintendo first, now xbox, then playstation next

hrm this is neat

i gotta see if the optimum case can somehow fit into my older kdbfans case otherwise time to go shopping

it says 308mm but fitting 308mm case into 308mm container that's not made of foam sides sounds sketchy

[amber hornet]

Why is that?

[dapper obsidian]

Maxes have sticking issues (not all but quite a damn few) as the Stem material is the same as the housing. Usually Stems are a more softer plastic to avoid hickups in movement.

[marsh saffron]

Maxes have a friction issue

Which can cause binding during key presses, especially so if it's any but off axis

[dreamy drum]

ong this sounds like jt feels better than sex

[devout totem]

Any ttc magneto rgb users? What's the take?

[cinder tangle]

thoughts on the gateron jade max? are there any switches that are better with a 0.1mm actuation point?

[amber hornet]

@cinder tangle Just talkeds about these. Apperently they have issues with hickups due to friction

[marsh saffron]

Go with jade pros, or geon raw HE

[cinder tangle]

thanks 👍

[cinder tangle]

what are the differences?

[marsh saffron]

Between the 2, not much at all

Slight pitch difference

Both are great for sound and stem wobble

[cinder tangle]

cool thanks

[lunar isle]

Quick question, should I get the Wooting 60HE, 80HE, ez60/63, Made68, Made60, Venom 60HE, ATK Edge 60HE, and so on. I’m looking for the best performance with good software that’s easy to understand.

[glacial wind]

for ease of use/software etc wooting always wins there. If you want to try something different - venom60he

performance wise those 2 are the most consistent in that if you strafe or push a button 100 times, it's going to do what you want those 100 times

made, atk etc are all worse versions of the venom, so if you aren't going wooting then i'd go venom over those options

[untold wigeon]

Hello, i have a question

Anyone tried gamakay phoenix magnetic silent switches?

Compared to lekkers, actuation is 0.01-4.00? And 4.00-0.01 reset?

[safe stag]

Either, these are tactile HE switches, and I don't even have to argue why this shouldn't exist
or they are really bad at marketing

[glacial wind]

not sure if anyone here has tested them. They were not very popular or appealing to folks here from the videos so i don't think any of us ordered any

[untold wigeon]

I ve seen sound comparison on YouTube, they sound more silent

[chilly mural]

venom60he might take a while to receive and have to diy though. But is a nice option if you don't care about rgb

[untold wigeon]

Im new to keyboard management..switches...so pls excuse me

[untold wigeon]

I see

[glacial wind]

wait are those the opposite polarity ones?

they might have been, i recall something about that

yeah if they are opposite polarity that would explain why no one tried them, they weren't compatible with wooting

[glacial wind]

if you want the standard recommended switch from most people here it'd be geon raw he or jade pro

[untold wigeon]

Idk, these are the ones

https://gamakay.com/blogs/news/silent-magnetic-switches-vs-silent-switches-gamakay-phoenix?srsltid=AfmBOorqQLBeQg5Bl686wUYx4YqGfAzvoAJGttzyqIZ8udWMJR32os1h

[glacial wind]

yeah i don't think those are compatible

[untold wigeon]

I ve seen many recommend those,.or even raptors...

I was looking for something silent..

[glacial wind]

there's no such thing as true silent switch unfortunately

there's the new gateron genty silent switches

but those are still not full silent

[untold wigeon]

Yeah, i ve heard them on sound tests from youtube, they dont seem to be silent at all

https://www.reddit.com/r/WootingKB/comments/1bzqzzp/silent_reds_equivalent/

Could u check this out?

[tawdry tree]

They are linear.

3.8mm

[glacial wind]

did wooting do that update to make both polarities compatible yet or was that still planned?

[untold wigeon]

Do u have wooting?

[tawdry tree]

Both polarities have been compatible for a long while now but the magnet strength is still an issue.

[tawdry tree]

Yeah

[glacial wind]

okay good i knew i remembered something about that

[untold wigeon]

And how are the phoenix switches? Are they silent?

I guess they are not dead silent, but compared to other he switches?

[tawdry tree]

They’re quiet, yes. However, I wouldn’t recommend them as they sound a bit scratchy and they aren’t sold separately (the boards they come in are the TK68 HE and TK75 HE).

[untold wigeon]

They are selling separately from today

[tawdry tree]

Really?

[untold wigeon]

I just found out 10 mins ago

Yep

[untold wigeon]

One more question

[tawdry tree]

Are they already for sale?

[untold wigeon]

I think yes

Could you explain this to me?

Omni ones...reset point for example, 0.4 to 3.8

So if i want to reset point to be 0.2, is not possible, right?

[tawdry tree]

That’s the board, Steelseries is shit so they don’t offer the full range.

[tawdry tree]

Most HE boards offer the full range of the switch.

[untold wigeon]

Aaaa, okii...so like, of u take the switches from steelseries and u put them on wooting...resert point and actuation point is 0.01-4.00?

[untold wigeon]

I see

[tawdry tree]

Yes, precisely.

[untold wigeon]

0.1*

So like, ur phonix are 0.1-3.8?

[ionic breach]

whats their deadzone?

[untold wigeon]

Phoenix*

[untold wigeon]

What is a deadzone? 🤦🤦🤦😂

[tawdry tree]

Yeah. A quirk about Wooting’s software is that it’ll show 0.1-4mm even if a switch has a travel of 3.8mm for example. The 0.1-4mm in the software is % rather than the actual millimeters.

[untold wigeon]

I see

Ty for the info

[tawdry tree]

So if you set 3.8mm switches to 4mm in Wootility, the actuation will happen at 3.8mm (the bottom out).

[untold wigeon]

Mhm, ty so much

So you say, they are silent but they sound a bit scratchy

[tawdry tree]

Haven’t used them on the 80HE yet, so not sure, but it doesn’t really matter.

[tawdry tree]

They’re quiet but of low quality basically.

[untold wigeon]

Lets say u want to buy silent switches right now...knowing that they sound bit scratchy...will u still buy them? Or u go for something lauder but more pleasing?

[glacial wind]

phoenix is not a performance switch if you're talking deadzone

if you care about deadzone you're basically picking one of the higher end box stem switches, but that's not what i'd recommend since you wanted less noisy

all the box stems at the top of that list are very noisy lol

[tawdry tree]

Most would prefer a clean sound over their desired pitch. It’s up to you at the end of the day.

[untold wigeon]

What is ur recommendation? The ones u told me?

[glacial wind]

well i'd recommend not worrying about deadzone for your requirements because you said less noisy

[untold wigeon]

These ones?

[glacial wind]

the ones i'd recommend for deadzone are ttc magneto, ttc uranus and gateron jade gaming - all 3 are insanely loud and noisy

[tawdry tree]

Squishy (even slightly) HE switches isn’t really support yet, well not by Woot and most other companies. You’d want a setting that ensured RT remains active at bottom out regardless if the squishyness would cause a deactivation.

[glacial wind]

that are not the switches you pick if you care about sound

the top switches will take your deadzone down from 0.3-ish total with the lekkers to like 0.18-ish

but none of them are quiet or generally recommend if sound is a priority for you

[tawdry tree]

0.03 and 0.018 right?

0.3mm deadzone would be crazy

[untold wigeon]

Isnt 0.1?

Oops, nvm

[glacial wind]

yeah correct

er wait

no

0.3mm total

i'm talking including starting point

[tawdry tree]

Nah, the board is slightly more accurate but 0.1 is the most stable and small enough.

[glacial wind]

so 0.15+0.15 and 0.15+0.03

[untold wigeon]

So deadzone is about accidentally press the key?

[glacial wind]

deadzone is the deadspace at the bottom of your keypress

[untold wigeon]

Okii

[glacial wind]

so yeah some boards have more/less at the bottom and it can change a bit based on the switch you pick too

[tawdry tree]

which switches/boards have a bottom out deadzone of 0.3mm?

[glacial wind]

lekkers

they have a lot less bottom stability than a lot of other switches

[tawdry tree]

they have less than 0.15

wouldn’t make sense if it was more than that

[glacial wind]

nah it's been measured and there's video on top of that

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1zH1zYcEHN/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click - video comparing lekkers vs ttc

[untold wigeon]

Guys, u 2, if you order the 80he in this moment,.what will.u choose between lekkers and jade? They only say gateron jades,. idk which one

[glacial wind]

measuring flux changes

[tawdry tree]

switchless and get raws or black knights

depending on what you like

[tawdry tree]

The comparison between a 4mm travel and 3.5(?) travel switch isn’t fair.

[untold wigeon]

Oki, ty so much for ur help guys

[tawdry tree]

For Wooting’s boards specifically.

[glacial wind]

this is bottom out release up

i know technically there's a slight difference in the disengage due to the auto calibration of 3.5 vs 4, but that still counts towards the deadzone amount measured moving up

[tawdry tree]

were the strengths of the magnets measured?

of each switch.

[glacial wind]

they're all within wootings sensitivity range if that's what you're asking

[tawdry tree]

no, I mean Lekkers and KS-20Us are nearly identical which then would score identical.

Lemme translate the image

[glacial wind]

it's about bottom out wobble mixed with magnet precision

yes i know what the image says

that's why roughly speaking box stems tend to do well higher on the chart because their bottom stability is higher

meaning less flux and less excess movement

[tawdry tree]

The test done in the video doesn’t seem to be related to wobble at all. If Lekker’s and KS-20Us scored differently, it’s odd.

[glacial wind]

it's related to deadzone

i'm trying to explain the rough dynamics of why the deadzone increases

it's about the stability of the switch which partially comes from the bottom wobble

small changes in mold and magnet can make a difference in this. for example magneto rgb vs magneto

the magnet is a tiny bit more precise and the mold is a tiny bit more improved even though they're marketed as same-ish switch with rgb/no rgb housing

[tawdry tree]

I know, I’m saying it’s the board rather than the switch and if switches with supposed identical strength and travel distance score differently it’s because of the magnet tolerances.

[glacial wind]

the switches are not indentical

magnet selection for example varies

[tawdry tree]

which varies slightly from switch to switch.

[glacial wind]

yes hence why a lot of these tests do an average

[tawdry tree]

supposed identical magnet strength i.e Gateron’s spec.

so Lekkers and KS-20Us.

[glacial wind]

except that's not how it works, gateron has many specs and not all magnets selected are equal

[sacred elm]

yea surely they have less than 0.15 with all that bottom wobble

[glacial wind]

same like how ttc has many specs within the same-ish switch lines

magneto rgb for example uses a magnet with same strength as magneto except it has +-50 instead of +-60

same strength doesn't always mean same quality

[tawdry tree]

what causes the deadzone to be different you think?

[glacial wind]

combination of magnet and bottom out wobble adding to deadzone

because we're talking about tiny amounts of movement/wobble shifting one way with sub 1mm stuff

[tawdry tree]

the deadzone is the firmware’s doing, the switch itself doesn’t have anything to do with it (in this specific test). with a different magnetic strength and distance from the sensor comes a different deadzone.

[glacial wind]

they have the same magnetic strengths

and the even +- in some cases

but then the only thing changing is the stability of the switch at times

like we still when eyejoker tests the wobble of the switch

[tawdry tree]

and the fact that Lekkers and KS-20Us score differently is because their magnets’ strengths vary slightly.

[glacial wind]

for example there is also data on things like jade pro and jade gaming which use the exact same magnets but one is box stem and jade gaming out performed jade pro

there seems to be some rough correlation between the bottom stability due to box stems and deadzone typically being less

on top of magnet precision

[tawdry tree]

point is, deadzone and switch wobble are unrelated entirely. the deadzone can only be changed per switch based on the strength of that switch’s magnet and its distance from the sensor, or if the board has a switch select option.

[glacial wind]

they aren't though and honestly i'm not debating you on something you learnt existed 15 mins ago

you do you.

[tawdry tree]

well

a Wooting board knows what switches are installed because it knows what switches aren’t installed. Sure.

[sacred elm]

Well sno posted tests

youre just saying same thing that switches have nothing to do with deadzone like 5 times

[tawdry tree]

the tests don’t show what he thinks they do.

[sacred elm]

without any clear explanation

[tawdry tree]

The board cannot differentiate between switches. It has strength of a switch’s magnet and its distance from the sensor. That’s it. So it can’t change the deadzone of a switch based on what switch is installed. That’s my point.

[sacred elm]

are all switches identical?

[glacial wind]

he's not getting it, don't bother shafie

[tawdry tree]

😂

[glacial wind]

the actual most interesting data point is the jade pro vs jade gaming part actually

both have same magnet, same travel distance

same stats outside of box stem

[sacred elm]

Yes, but one is box stemmed

[tawdry tree]

To the board, kinda yeah.

[sacred elm]

...

We are not saying that board knows which switches you installed

[tawdry tree]

It would have to if the deadzone changes based off of the switch alone.

[glacial wind]

and yet it does.

[tawdry tree]

😂😂

[tawdry tree]

Then we wouldn’t need a switch select option now would we.

[glacial wind]

no we need the switch selection option to be more precise, but auto calibration already does this roughly

unless your take is that auto calibration does nothing right now

which wouldn't line up with the analog tester

[tawdry tree]

if the board knows what switches are installed, a switch select option isn’t needed. But that’s not true.

[untold wigeon]

Which ones have better performance? Lekkers v2 vs jades pro?

[glacial wind]

not true. you've had this explained to you before by staff about why switch selector is needed

[tawdry tree]

In terms of Wobble, Jade Pros.

[glacial wind]

switch selector allows the board to more easily and more precisely do what it's trying to do with auto calibration

it already auto calibrates but it's easier and better with a switch selector so the board doesn't have to work as hard

[tawdry tree]

I know why it’s needed, because the board cannot differentiate the switch and alter it’s calibration based on info it doesn’t have.

haha

[glacial wind]

your entire thesis rests on auto calibration doesn't exist though

[tawdry tree]

it’s whatever

[glacial wind]

except it does and the board calibrates for 3.5mm vs 4mm and magnet strength

[tawdry tree]

you’re not gonna get it

[glacial wind]

we literally have analog tester

that shows how and when it calibrates

[tawdry tree]

ah ha, it changes its calibration based on the magnet’s strength and distance from the sensor. Omg!?

[glacial wind]

yes and the deadzone up/down seems to be affected by the stability at the bottom

[tawdry tree]

that’s not even what the test shows man.. 😭😭

[glacial wind]

i'm saying roughly speaking it seems to affect it somehow because the box stem switches for some reason do better on deadzone

that's outside of the whole flux stuff where wobble = release but that's a side thing not just to do with deadzone and more about human movements

[tawdry tree]

One question, if Lekkers had no wobble at all do you think the test of the video would show any decrease in deadzone?

[glacial wind]

that's a good question, you should test it and see

[dapper obsidian]

Man oh man my Geons arrived at a DHL Box. Lets pray 28,50 Shipping and 30 tax was worth it

[tawdry tree]

Completely unrelated! Unless Black Knights were tested, all box stems in the videos are 3.3-3.5mm which decreases their “deadzone” because Wooting’s firmware!

[dapper obsidian]

[glacial wind]

but we know auto calibration happens

[tawdry tree]

I’m asking what you think, to see how you understand it. Then we end the argument.

[tawdry tree]

Was. 🥰

[glacial wind]

we literally know that when you turn on the 80he or 60he it auto calibrates to adjust the travel

we have analog tester to see

[tawdry tree]

Answer please, then we stop.

[glacial wind]

we can literally even see when the switch still thinks it's 4mm and when it realizes it's adjusted to 3.5mm https://analog-monitor.wootility.io/

it's seems to be both the magnet and the stability because of the jades example because otherwise we don't have an explanation for the different jades performing differently with the same magnet and travel distance

it's not one or the other, both factors seem to play

[tawdry tree]

Do you believe, if Lekkers had no wobble at all, the “deadzone” (seen in the video) would decrease at all. Yes/no.

[glacial wind]

as in you put a box stem on it and it no longer wobbles?

if it follows the jades example then the deadzone might decrease yeah, because we haven't been able to explain the jades example still

[tawdry tree]

As in all it’s wobble is wished away.

[glacial wind]

i know the line of thinking you're following, but it doesn't explain the phenomenon of the jades gaming and jades pro

unless gateron lied about the specs and isn't using the same magnets

[tawdry tree]

Not “might”. I don’t want a politician’s answer. I’m asking if you believe it would decrease at all (a non 0 amount).

[glacial wind]

i'm literally saying we don't know because with jades gaming it does

because same travel and same magnet yet we saw a change

[tawdry tree]

It is but auto calibration doesn’t do what you think it does.

[tawdry tree]

Very well, I do know and I’m telling you the “deadzone” that is tested in the video has nothing to do with wobble whatsoever.

Agree to disagree is fine by me.

[glacial wind]

okay then explain the jade gaming example

why does jade gaming seem to decrease deadzone more than jade pro

there's a strange correlation that we haven't been able to explain away

[tawdry tree]

As I said perviously, the Jade Gaming is a 3.3mm total travel switch which has a decreased deadzone because of Woot’s firmware, that’s how it works.

[glacial wind]

jade gaming is 3.5mm

jade pro is 3.5mm

[tawdry tree]

Physically 3.3, Gateron says 3.5mm, 3.5mm is fine.

[glacial wind]

okay good we've established that now

so why is jade gaming different

[tawdry tree]

^

[glacial wind]

jade gaming = jade pro in distance

unless you're saying gateron lied in jade gaming specs and told the truth with jade pro?

so one is 3.3 and one is 3.5?

[tawdry tree]

The variation in magnet strength is what changes their “deadzone”, exactly the same as Lekkers compared to KS-20Us.

[glacial wind]

their magnet +- is both 30 fyi, same magnet strength

[tawdry tree]

No, they’re both the same in total travel distance.

[glacial wind]

they both have the same magnet strength and same travel distance

[tawdry tree]

The slight variation in magnet strength, and mold tolerances (total travel might vary by 0.1mm, etc).

[glacial wind]

no they're testing averages.

[sacred elm]

werent they 3.3mm 2 minutes ago

[glacial wind]

you can't just say there's a mysterious tolerance difference that no one found

[tawdry tree]

there is.

[glacial wind]

the answer that you're avoiding is you don't know why and neither do i and that's why there's something weird with the correlation with box stem

[tawdry tree]

I do know because I know how it works and I’ve tested nearly all magnetic switches.

[glacial wind]

whether the stability of the stem somehow helps the magnet or sensor i don't know why, but for some reason box stems seem to crush the deadzone test more

no... you haven't given any evidence

[amber hornet]

Its finally Here 😩
(Dw other keycaps are on their way)

[glacial wind]

you've just said "mysterious variation even though gateron says they use the same magnet and travel"

that's not an answer lol

that's just you don't know and want to give an answer and that's the only logical one you can think of that fits your theory so far

[lunar isle]

So Wooting or venom, which is better between those two?

[glacial wind]

preference. They both perform well and have good software

[tawdry tree]

These are the raw values (magnet strengths) of the original Jades and Pink Jades).

The variation is the key point.

[glacial wind]

yes but this isn't jade pro or jade gaming and variation wouldn't make sense for why gaming came out on top on every chinese test

if it was random sample variation it shouldn't be consistent

the answer is you don't know either and it's a weird one right?

just say you don't know lol - you don't need to make up some mysterious reasoning

[tawdry tree]

you argue for the sake of arguing, it shows the variation which is outside of the magnet tolerances alone.

[glacial wind]

no, you're dodging the question

[tawdry tree]

I do know as I said before.

[glacial wind]

yeah and you haven't proven it

[tawdry tree]

I’ve told you how it works.

[glacial wind]

you can't just say "oh must be variation"

prove it. show me the data anywhere

[tawdry tree]

Explained the variations and what causes them.

[glacial wind]

you explained how your variation example might happen but not that it happened

[lunar isle]

Is one better than the other performance wise?

[glacial wind]

because you can't prove it.

it's just your guess with no actual proof

[tawdry tree]

The random guess right?

[glacial wind]

not really, they're like 0.2 press release for both

[tawdry tree]

That turned out right every time in the past? That same random guess?

[glacial wind]

unless you mean 60he vs venom then there is a performance difference but they're the same enoug hthat it doesn't matter

what turned out right?

[untold wigeon]

Does keycaps affects the switches? The performance overall?

[glacial wind]

aligner you literally just don't want to say you don't know and can't prove it lol

[glacial wind]

nah

[tawdry tree]

A couple things, I think it was something about the Jade’s stem.

[glacial wind]

?? what does this have to do with jade gaming and pro situation here

unless your new argument is that sometimes you guess right so therefore this guess must be right?

i know you don't have any data here on jade gaming or pro. We both know this.

[lunar isle]

I mean 80HE

[tawdry tree]

I know this for sure because I tested every switch twice over and enjoying learning about how Wooting’s and HE boards in general work.

[glacial wind]

did you test jade pro and gaming?

if so go ahead. Post the magnet results.

[sacred elm]

No performance is the same

[glacial wind]

i'll apologise with the data showing how they aren't the same

[tawdry tree]

Not yet, most recent switches are still on the way.

[glacial wind]

yeah so again you're guessing and you don't know

was that so hard to say you don't know why and it's weird?

[sacred elm]

Your only argument is "i know this for sure" can you please stop, I get it, it must be a boring day for you but please

[glacial wind]

it's okay to not know why something weird is happening.

or why box stems seem to do better on the deadzone tests despite logically it shouldn't matter

[tawdry tree]

It’s not a guess. Essentially you’re saying that the board changes it’s calibration based on the switch alone which isn’t what’s happening. Which is what I’m saying.

[glacial wind]

no i'm not saying that lol

i'm saying the board is able to read certain distances more precisely based on the different switch

[tawdry tree]

You are, that’s what it comes down to.

[glacial wind]

which is a different thing.

end of the day, the answer is you don't know about the jade gaming/pro thing and it's weird

it's a weird situation that doesn't seem to make sense yet is happening for some reason

[tawdry tree]

If you believed wobble had an effect on the “deadzone” tested in the video you sent. You’d stand behind your belief and say that Lekkers without wobble would see a decrease in deadzone which you don’t.

That was my question to end the argument

[glacial wind]

yeah because unlike you I can admit that there's weird results that don't seem to follow

saying I don't know why there's a weird corrolation is okay

[tawdry tree]

Unless you’re saying the test he did is inaccurate to a point where it’d bump the Jade Gaming’s higher up. It’s the variation in tolerances of both the mold and magnet of a switch.

Nothing else.

[glacial wind]

fyi i'm not talking about the video for jade pro vs gaming if that's what's confusing you

i only linked the video to show you that there does seem to be a difference in switches with deadzone

[tawdry tree]

Again, I’m fine with agreeing to disagree.

[glacial wind]

i mean at end of the day this was a really roundabout way to say you don't have the answer to the jade pro/gaming thing

i don't get it. why not just say you don't know lol

[tawdry tree]

I’ve explained it best I could.

[glacial wind]

yeah which is a guess as you've admitted because we don't have any data beyond gaterons claims that they are the same

so you've guessed a logical answer but you don't actually know

[tawdry tree]

You say you don’t know, sure. Why say the deadzone has anything to do with wobble if you don’t know?

[glacial wind]

because there's a weird corrolation with stability and deadzone testing in some tests so far

[tawdry tree]

I should start betting with all these random guess that were exactly spot on. lol

[glacial wind]

i mean let's not forget the times you said you'd email gateron for files etc and never did because you couldn't just say you didn't know

it's a consistent pattern. you just don't like to say you don't know

[tidal frigate]

Are you still going about deadzone

[glacial wind]

yeah i unfortunately took the debate

my mind told me no but i didn't listen

[tidal frigate]

So whats conclusion

[glacial wind]

that there isn't one and he can't explain it either outside of guessing that everyone testing somehow got the same variation happening and gateron is lying or incorrect for their own data

[glacial wind]

and what was the reply?

lol

that reply message seems to suggest gateron did not agree with your conclusion in the initial reply

[glacial wind]

so you were incorrect in that guess then

[tawdry tree]

Correct, which turned out to be, you guessed it, false.

[glacial wind]

see, it's okay to be mistaken or not know. there's no need to just say something is certain

[tawdry tree]

😂😂

[glacial wind]

sometimes things are weird and we don't know why and that's okay

[tawdry tree]

It’s alright man.

Guess we’ll see what comes of this random guess.

😉

[glacial wind]

it's not about being right or wrong. There's just no need to argue and say you know 100% when a lot of the time we need more data and don't know yet

just like that whole stem thing before

i never even said you were necessarily wrong just that I didn't think there enough data for your guess back then to be right about the stem

[tawdry tree]

I did say it was a presumption, it’s just that we work with different information at the time and I accounted for what’s likely as well, and turns out right, believe it was a random guess or not.

[glacial wind]

i don't believe it's a 'guess' i'm just explaining it like that

i know you 100% have a logical thought process for that x is right, it's just that you tend to go overboard saying it's 100% the truth and right before we have any confirmation

[tawdry tree]

that’s fine, but there’s a difference between an assumption and a presumption.

[tawdry tree]

For this deadzone thing, yes because I know it as fact and would put anything up for it.

[glacial wind]

and for some reason you always argue as if no other possibility could be true even when we don't really know, like the stem thing

[glacial wind]

you do not know though. That's just the best logical answer you can think of - but we don't actually know if that's true that gateron is just incorrect with listed info on the gaming

[tawdry tree]

with the stem thing, sort of, I argued that it was the most likely, which to me it was. It true that no one knowns what someone else would do hence a presumption instead of a random guess.

[glacial wind]

can i ask a side question though. Why argue so hard over something so minor when we actually don't know. Is that just like a way you think or something else? Not flaming or anything

[tawdry tree]

For this, I do because it’s about what the board does and that I am sure of. The variable isn’t Gateron this time.

[tawdry tree]

I could ask the same to you.

[glacial wind]

no i mean my argument is I don't know

not that i'm right

it's that we don't have all the info and there's weird corrolations

[tawdry tree]

my argument was it’s the most likely, and now is it’s fact. You’re arguing hard regardless.

[glacial wind]

but it's not fact yet...

okay nm this isn't going anywhere, i guess this is just the way you think

[tawdry tree]

I know it to be because I know what the board does.

[glacial wind]

you said the exact same things with the stem

and it turned out wrong

if it's fact it can't be incorrect

[tawdry tree]

It was right. AndI did say it was a presumption.

Arguing hard, sure, same as you.

[glacial wind]

what? the gateron person said you were wrong

[tawdry tree]

I didn’t have Jades to compare and measure then.

Both stems are identical.

[glacial wind]

but the gateron person said they are not the same

[tawdry tree]

Gateron has said quite a lot. 🤣

[glacial wind]

alrighty then.

[stone flax]

Meow

=W=

[chilly mural]

Nya

[glacial wind]

hello mj, would you like to help solve the equation of deadzones with different switches

[stone flax]

i got things to do in the next hour and a half but ill try fitting this argument in my schedule somewhere dw

[glacial wind]

i'd actually love to work out the mystery

because the whole thing is bizarre and i can't explain the results

like if you go with the theory that deadzone reduces due to 3.5mm switch vs 4mm then it still doesn't explain the weirdness where some switches that are 3.5mm in travel and have similar magnets to lekker actually increased the deadzone while others decreased

unless you throw that all into just random variance but then the results shouldn't be so consistent on multiple reviewers charts ranking them

[tawdry tree]

😵‍💫

[glacial wind]

the random increase/decrease of deadzone with different switches is the weird part and something eyejoker only recently started testing

[quartz spire]

Do I need to change stabilizers if I switch to the jade pros

Or I just install the switches and I’m good to go?

[tawdry tree]

Not if you’re using stock or any decent quality keycaps.

[chilly mural]

Hopefully all of these research means better lekker v3

[quartz spire]

Ok thx

[glacial wind]

honestly the other part with switches is that if wooting does go sub 0.1ms eventually then flux comes into play and bottom stability then actually will matter

[stone flax]

unless new molds are made i doubt it

[quartz spire]

Are gmk keycaps fine

[tawdry tree]

Yes.

[stone flax]

Wonder if lekker v2.5 happens

[quartz spire]

Ok thx

[glacial wind]

because bottom stability is directly related to flux. I hope it doesn't mean we're all stuck with a box stem future though

[outer stirrup]

ive got a question w my order if anyone can help me

[tawdry tree]

We got V1.5s so who knows.

[untold wigeon]

Question, i ve seen on wooting website that wooting 60 he have water spill protection, but they don't say the same for wooting 80he, does 80he have protection or not?

[glacial wind]

it has it

although honestly don't spill anything anyway because that's no guarantee it won't be messed up

it's just a resistant coating, not waterproof

[untold wigeon]

Oh yeah, ofc..but i was just wondering..any protection is welcome :))

I wonder why they don't specify on their website, just like the 60 he...

[tawdry tree]

probably forgot

[glacial wind]

i think it's written somewhere iirc, but not listed directly

[untold wigeon]

So, according go this

TTC Magneto Gaming these are like the best ones?

[glacial wind]

that's bottom out flux, but yeah

[untold wigeon]

Ah oki

[tawdry tree]

don’t get them because their “deadzone” is smaller.

[stone flax]

ttc guai tai

[glacial wind]

ttc magneto gaming and ttc magneto pom have the tightest bottom stability in combination with a very small +- magnetic variance

[stone flax]

jiadalong jades

[outer stirrup]

question, can i put my exact location so its comes to my house because in this picture it says its gonna deliver to the capital and i live far away from it so im a bit confused

[stray tiger]

Morning everyone. Hope you all had a good turkey day yesterday!

If you're American that is

[glacial wind]

don't worry in korea we don't have thanksgiving so i got the gift of debating with aligner instead

[sweet oak]

Had so much oven mac and cheese

[tawdry tree]

love you too man

[untold wigeon]

I feel bad for this debating...i was the one who asked whats the deadzone 🤦🤦

What is deadzone*

[tawdry tree]

it’s fine

[glacial wind]

it's fine, i don't actually mind a debate here and there long as it's not personal insults

[tawdry tree]

you didn’t do the arguing.

[glacial wind]

and i do actually still want to get to the bottom of the deadzone thing which still is bizarre

[stray tiger]

I can't debate with him anymore as he is unable to to admit that he may not know the answer to something or may be incorrect about something.

[glacial wind]

oh so you've experienced the fun

[sacred elm]

[chilly mural]

hearing that makes me fatter

[sacred elm]

lmao

[stray tiger]

What's the deadzone thing?

[tawdry tree]

Jade Mini Es?

Cmon now

[glacial wind]

so the deadzone thing is weird. Some switches increase/reduce deadzone in the wooting but i can't find a pattern for it beyond stability

[untold wigeon]

Aligner

[stray tiger]

Same firmware, same magnetic strength, same materials?

[tawdry tree]

ye

[untold wigeon]

So...based on your preference

[glacial wind]

aligner says it's purely auto calibration not fully calibrating and 3.5mm vs 4mm is doing it, but then sometimes switches with similar magnet strengths have different results

[untold wigeon]

Do u think i will be disappointed of the phoenix switches?

[glacial wind]

so i can't figure out heads or tails or why it happens

[untold wigeon]

Are u disappointed?

[glacial wind]

like if it's 3.5mm vs 4mm causing it then it's weird that eyejoker saw geon raw he increase deadzone while another jade switch with similar magnetism decreased it

[tawdry tree]

I don’t think disappointed but their sound isn’t clean. They are the best stock silent magnetic switches out right now so there isn’t really any other option if you want a quiet build.

[stray tiger]

Well auto calibration happens in phases and gets better and better over the first few initial calibrations. So depending on how/when the measurements occurred that could affect it but assuming all things equal then I'm not sure why they would be different.

[untold wigeon]

Do they feel nice?

[glacial wind]

yeah see i'm of the same thought where it makes no sense that they are different

and i don't know why it does that

[tawdry tree]

I’m saying “deadzone” and wobble in that specific test are entirely unrelated and the “deadzone” is solely caused by the magnet’s strength and distance from the sensor.

[glacial wind]

yeah i'm not talking about wobble right now, i'm talking purely the 3.5mm vs 4mm part

[tawdry tree]

They are alright, let’s put it at that. Lekker V1s are far worse.

[untold wigeon]

How about phonix vs lekker v2?

[stray tiger]

All things being equal is a very tough formula though. Magnet quality, voltage changes based on switch location, wobble, all kinds of things can make slight variations so you'd have to do a lot of consistent testing in the same slot, same amount of calibration, etc etc

[glacial wind]

because logically if it's the auto calibration not being able to calibrate then it should be results that line up where 2 similar 3.5mm switches with similar magnets should decrease or increase the deadzone in a similar way

[tawdry tree]

Lekker V2s sound cleaner and are smoother.

[untold wigeon]

And feeling?

[tawdry tree]

How much would the Phoenixes cost for you?

[untold wigeon]

Aaaa, sorry, are smoother, okii

[untold wigeon]

Idk, 40$ i think

[tawdry tree]

that’s my argument, so everything is crystal clear.

[untold wigeon]

I ve seen magneto switches...90 switcher or something, 140$

[tawdry tree]

that I know to be a fact.

[tawdry tree]

Have you used silent switches in the past?

[tawdry tree]

Yeah, their price is insane.

[glacial wind]

yeah i'm not even talking about that part, i'm discussing the other part where you think it's auto calibration with the 3.5mm thing

[untold wigeon]

Nope =))), i said before, im new to all these thing...the only switches im familiar with are cherry mx speed

They dont sound nice

[sacred elm]

Why dont you get geon raws or jade pros

[untold wigeon]

Bcs they are not silent...

[fallen pecan]

dang you guys are getting fleeced, they cost like $83 if bought locally

[tawdry tree]

I had to buy mine for $80 and got a free board with it (they came in the board) so it’s not that bad but I wouldn’t recommend them.

[sacred elm]

Well those phoenix switches arent that silent either

[untold wigeon]

I was thinking of those before i found that there are silent ones too

[glacial wind]

has wooting posted the start/end value of the lekker v2 anywhere? I couldn't find them

[fossil panther]

Hey there, this is my first message.
My 80he order will take a while, but i allrady got some TTC King swichtes and some nice KAM Profile Keycaps. (Similar to DSA)
Any experience with flat keycaps for gaming and HE in general?

[glacial wind]

for magnetic flux that is

[stray tiger]

Travel distance shouldn't affect deadzone once the switch has been properly calibrated (probably after the 3rd phase of calibration to be safe). A switch selector like the Venom has might make that calibration a bit quicker due to having a better starting point to start the calculations from.

[tawdry tree]

I’d talk about that because that was the argument, something you and I disagreed on.

[untold wigeon]

Well, they are more silent than the others...not so sure bcs i didnt see direct comparision between them, i ve seen compared to other switches

[glacial wind]

uh oh don't say that. That's what i argued earlier

[glacial wind]

i'm not discussing that part, i'm just trying to see if anyone can figure out the mystery of the deadzone stuff - i don't care about proving you right or wrong here

[fallen pecan]

i have a nuphy air75he which has nsa caps, no issues when gaming. tho my settings are quite conservative, 1.4mm actuation, 0.2mm rt

[tawdry tree]

Alright.

[sacred elm]

Ah. They might be quieter than others but they definitely not feel as good as other switches

[stray tiger]

It's 6:30am here. I need coffee and to scroll up and see what I missed to better understand the exact conversation. Bbiab

[untold wigeon]

Offf...

[glacial wind]

i don't recommend reading it - it's all a bit of a mess lol

hrm maybe i need to resub to eyejoker

then i can ask him in his members section

[tawdry tree]

You could always get both, Silent Phoenixes and Raw HEs. 😉

[sacred elm]

Lekker v2s arent that loud tho, geon raws and jade pros are definitely louder, maybe consider lekker v2s?

[untold wigeon]

Haha, i will, im gonna get them, i just dont have money for both rn

[fossil panther]

They Air75he is low profile, right?
Good to hear, still pretty new to that hobby, didnt even knew keycap profiles exist a few weeks back

[untold wigeon]

Hmmm, i see, ty for help

[fallen pecan]

yep i like how low my wrist is relative to the table, no stress at all

[untold wigeon]

But geon raws and jades pro feels better than lekkers v2?

[sacred elm]

Overall Id say yes

[untold wigeon]

Even tho they are laud, sounds more satisfying too?

Lauder*

[sacred elm]

Preference, but I do enjoy both of them more than lekkers

[untold wigeon]

I see...

[tawdry tree]

Alright, I’d personally go with the Raw HEs if you want a clean and high pitch switch or with Black Knights if you want a clean(ish) lower pitch switch.

[fossil panther]

I get RMI extremly fast, i dont even have my wrist touching the table at all, my keyboard is at the edge of the table (:

[untold wigeon]

Raw vs black knights in terms of feeling??

[tawdry tree]

The resolution is higher on 3.3mm switches compared to 4.0mm switches i.e 40 over 3.3mm and 40 over 4.0mm. If the deadzone is effected by this is difficult to test without equipment.

[fossil panther]

Sorry for the question, but is anyone actually playing with minimal actuation point or is the deadzone discussion just about technicalities?

[fallen pecan]

ive never heard of the black knight switch, is this it?

[tawdry tree]

Raw’s over Black Knights.

Slightly.

[tawdry tree]

That’s it.

[glacial wind]

it's a super old one from awhile ago

people used to recommend it as the box stem tighter lekker

[tawdry tree]

Black Knights by MoyuStudio manufactured by Hejin.

[untold wigeon]

Ty

[glacial wind]

honestly look at jade pro chaoslord.

because they may be cheaper right now for you depending on location

black friday sales has bumped down the price of them a lot

[untold wigeon]

Well, almost nothing is on my country (Romania)

[glacial wind]

and jade pro / raw he are both very similar

aliexpress is the way if they ship to you

[untold wigeon]

If i find anything here i will consider, but i wanna get the one i want..if i cant get it now, i ll wait more

[fossil panther]

need to go aliexpress

[untold wigeon]

Hah, oki, ty 😂

[sacred elm]

geon raws are a bit louder

[untold wigeon]

So, keycaps...for example, if i make a mix... fixing different keycaps, different materials, different weight? Does it affects overall performance?

[sacred elm]

than jade pros

[sacred elm]

no

[fossil panther]

But it will feel inconsistent of course

[untold wigeon]

I cant tell from this, as u do guys, which are quiter from these 2?

Raw he s lauder than jades pro

How about black knights?

[untold wigeon]

True...

[tawdry tree]

Similar.

[glacial wind]

black knights are a little quieter, they're like lekker v2 kind of sound

[sacred elm]

I wouldnt get black knights because they are just box stem lekkers and wont feel as good as geon raws/jade pros

[tawdry tree]

Black Knights are the quietest of the bunch.

[glacial wind]

honestly if you wanted black knights i'd just have stuck with lekker v2 and not worry about box stems

[untold wigeon]

How about compared to lekkers v2?

[sacred elm]

they are not similar

[untold wigeon]

Oh

[tawdry tree]

Very similar.

[sacred elm]

raws are louder

[fallen pecan]

yep raws are louder

[glacial wind]

jade pros/raws are also tighter stem if you care about that

[tawdry tree]

I found the Raws to be quite susceptible to changes in sound dampening but I have the Jades to compare to.

Rather than the Jade Pros.

[sacred elm]

Well, i have both jade pros and raws in my keyboard right now and raws are louder

slightly opened bottom makes them louder

[untold wigeon]

So, if the lekkers v2 are not as laud as others, and black knights are similar but feels better, this would be a better choise if i wanted to buy phoenix in the first place?

[glacial wind]

honestly if you wanted silent i'd just buy one of the scuffed not really silent genty jade or something like that

because that's the best we have lol

[tawdry tree]

The feel of the Black Knights and Lekker V2s is similar, Lekker V2s slightly smoother especially on wider keys. Do you have Lekker V2s rn?

[untold wigeon]

No, im planning to get the wooting 80he when is released

Like i said, im new to thei thing, i know nothing

[glacial wind]

wait what do you mean when it's released

[untold wigeon]

Pre order, ships in they werehouse on 19 december

[tawdry tree]

Non-pre order prob

[glacial wind]

oh you mean when your preorder arrives?

[untold wigeon]

Probably I'm gonna get it around january

Yes

[glacial wind]

okay that makes more sense

[untold wigeon]

🤦😂

[glacial wind]

did you order it with lekker v2 already?

[untold wigeon]

I said before, they only switches im familiar with, are cherry mx speed

[untold wigeon]

No, no, not yet pre-ordered

I wanted to know more before i buy anything

[glacial wind]

oh... you probably want to hurry. Some of batch 3 is starting to sell out so decide soon

[untold wigeon]

1 weeks ago i was looking for q1 he

[untold wigeon]

Oh really??? Okkkkk, thank you

[glacial wind]

once batch 3 sells out then you're looking at like feb/march or similar for delivery

[tawdry tree]

The Lekker V2s and Silent Phoenixes are closer to each other in terms of sound than the Lekker V2s are to Raw HEs. So if you’re getting your 80HE with Lekker V2s, I’d go with Raw HEs.

[glacial wind]

yeah 80he iso module is already sold out in batch 3

[signal thorn]

yeah. i pre-ordered 80he module this week. mine is arriving dec-jan

[glacial wind]

oh did you just barely squeak into batch 3? that's pretty nice

[untold wigeon]

Well, from everything you guys said, phoenix seem to feel cheap

[untold wigeon]

Ahhh

[glacial wind]

i saw it's march now for iso module lol

[untold wigeon]

I ll order ansi

Ahh

[tawdry tree]

They are and do. All Yiqian’s current magnetic switches are not great.

[fallen pecan]

are the cases always discounted if you choose the module?

[glacial wind]

yeah ansi is still batch 3 so you're okay, just be aware that once it sells out it'll be batch 4

[glacial wind]

yeah, just one though

[fallen pecan]

sweet

[candid ivy]

someonje have nice keycaps for 80% keyboard and united layout ?

[untold wigeon]

Lekkers v2 vs black knights? Sound

Which is quiter?

[glacial wind]

just stick with lekker v2 honestly, i don't think black knight is worth buying these days now that v2 has improved stem wobble

[fallen pecan]

BKs even lower than lekker v1s in the flux chart

2nd last iirc

[glacial wind]

yeah i don't think black knight are worth these days

[tawdry tree]

Black Knights by a little.

[untold wigeon]

Ty a lot

[tawdry tree]

They’re around the same price as Lekker V2s with the discount IIRC

Lekker V2s are like what? $25?

[untold wigeon]

But do they feel better than lekkers v2?

[tawdry tree]

No.

[untold wigeon]

Ahhh

[random hull]

TTC magnetic switches coming to wooting store soon apparently

[glacial wind]

seems wooting made minor modifications to the wooting version which is neat

[fossil panther]

Source?

[random hull]

calder on his stream

[glacial wind]

they said they'll have ttc switches with slight minor modifications they requested such as color and the led window, and they'll carry multiple ttc magneto version such as the regular and pom

[fossil panther]

Interessting!

[random hull]

was that the really expensive one

[fossil panther]

yea

Got mine for 77cents with some coupons

[glacial wind]

yeah even my poms which are their pricest version was .92 cent a switch after huge discounts lol

[wicked coral]

where can i get really nice keycaps for the 60HE

[fallen pecan]

i think he was complaining about the pom prisms falling out, cos the regular magnetos have integrated prisms

[glacial wind]

might be the rgb too since pom and rgb share mold

[fossil panther]

Was wondering about that too, its just part of the housing on the OG KOM

[glacial wind]

honestly it's that way on the raw he and doesn't bother me, i just put the window back, but any improvement is better than nothing at least

[fallen pecan]

even the uranus are built in, only the poms are separate

[sacred elm]

yea same happened to me

not a big deal

[glacial wind]

you're welcome btw everyone - i got us the stonewashed raw leaks

[sacred elm]

We need optimum 80 leaks

[glacial wind]

there's limited edition 80he case raw stonewashed maybe

calder leaked it just now on stream

also he leaked 0.1rt coming soon sometime

[chilly mural]

really be squeezing 60he+ dry

[sacred elm]

oh really, was that at the end of the stream?

[glacial wind]

yeah

right at the end

[sacred elm]

actually we knew about 0.1rt

they said that months ago

sub 0.1 we dont know

[glacial wind]

yeah i think 0.1rt first then we'll see if they are open to 0.01 type stuff in the future

[teal cobalt]

what discount??

[polar girder]

Love the advancements

[tawdry tree]

The discount on Lekker V2s if you get them with the Module.

Instead of the prebuilt.

[stone flax]

Vendors and such. depends what ur looking for

[dapper obsidian]

Damn...Geons...are kinda...a downgrade to lekkers

[stone flax]

L take

[dapper obsidian]

I said it

[stone flax]

Gahahahahahahgahahahahaggagagahhahagghaggagagagahhahahahahahga

[dapper obsidian]

wait a second I give you a comparison

[chilly mural]

Depends on your preference. I like the sound.

[dapper obsidian]

dont get my wrong, Lekkers are also quite shit sound wise

but Geons are surely not as great as people make it seem

people surely never had G Pro Yellows 3.0

Mic I recorded it with was a blue sona

no editing, no gain

well I guess gain from windows or my Mixer.

I didnt up it in the software, tho

[stone flax]

raws on top

[jade star]

i prefer the raws significantly even in that sound test honestly lol

[glacial wind]

yeah maybe you just found out you don't care about sound

and stem tightness

[sacred elm]

hop on jade pros buddy

[glacial wind]

which is honestly not a bad thing, gives you more switch options

[polar girder]

TIL bro is deaf

[jaunty ruin]

would 0.01 really make such a difference compared to lets say 0.1?

[jaunty ruin]

my point exactly

i prefer jade og sound over geon raw he and that says alot

im getting my jade pros (fr this time) in a few days

:3

[glacial wind]

eh it's a debate because yes it's noticable but you also notice how much more inconsistent it becomes and how easy it is to lift off early

[jaunty ruin]

yeah okay that makes sense

ive never gotten near 0.1 cuz i would just mess up

ive been on 0.8 for the longest time now and its been great to me

[glacial wind]

wootings philosophy was always stability, so it's a question of it wooting wants to allow sub 0.1ms and lose stability (but perhaps they could just add a warning before allowing people to go below 0.1 - similar to how they do for increasing brightness in tachyon mode)

[jaunty ruin]

just makes me wonder if there is a true benefit to getting used to the lower actuation when its that small of a difference (in relative distance)

[little glen]

wooting should add a 0.01 mode and call it "stupid mode"

[jaunty ruin]

LOL

[little glen]

to shut up everyone that complains about it

[jaunty ruin]

this would be a very smart way of 'tackling' this dilemma tbh

im starving brb

[glacial wind]

it would be quite amusing

and now that they're adding ttc magneto switches to the store it can technically handle it to a certain level

[stone flax]

Or just get more powerful #venom #jiadalong

[sacred elm]

there will be a difference in amount of misinputs, but since other "competitors" have it, wooting should add it too

[glacial wind]

but geon doesn't do sub 0.1 either

[sacred elm]

venom glazing is on another level

[chilly mural]

Dat venom gonna be soo slippery with all of that glazing

[stone flax]

geon will do it

i believe in him

hes so awesome

hes just a shy and awkward but also funny and awesome guy ;>>>

[glacial wind]

but then you'd have to use ttc magnetos to enable it and it would hurt your soul to install those into your venom

[stone flax]

Box stem will become viable when geon decides to make it tbh

no point settling on current options yfm

[glacial wind]

i feel your faith in geon isn't real

where is your geon usb c cable

a real geonite would have one

You need a show of commitment via cable

[tidal frigate]

Thick

[stark osprey]

Love it, but that $27 DHL shipping to US is a killer. Hopefully Divinikey stocks them

[stone flax]

me: rubs my conspicuously-geon-usb c-cable shaped stomach bulge
“I dont know”

[stone flax]

2 days shipping tho

[chilly mural]

Might grab it if wanna get something else on Geon's store

[glacial wind]

yeah it's honestly a good deal if you're buying from there already

i only grabbed it because i wanted to pick up some stem spacers lol

plus in korea so it's $1.7 shipping

[chilly mural]

hmm, next year. When the tiger lite gaming Venom pcb is arriving.

[glacial wind]

okay one of other folks i talked to got a decent theory for the deadzone thing that makes much more sense than aligners theory

[sacred elm]

what theory

[tawdry tree]

here we go

[stone flax]

Round 2

[fallen pecan]

https://tenor.com/view/rumble-wwf-fight-michael-buffer-announcement-gif-5453432

[sacred elm]

round 3

[glacial wind]

so the theory is basically there's some sort of deadzone calibration/compensation amount at the bottom out and more stable = less compensation and less deadzone

lekkers for example have a lot more flux variance and therefore trigger more compensation and more deadzone

[sacred elm]

makes sense

[glacial wind]

and ttc magneto and other more stable switches have less flux and require less compensation and thereby have less deadzone

now i have no idea if this is 100% how it works, but it makes more sense than the auto calibration theory because like thockfather said the 3.5 vs 4mm shouldn't matter after autocalibration knows the top/bottom value

[tawdry tree]

so the board would compare the strengths between switches to then take the average and adjust the deadzone accordingly, is that what you mean?

[glacial wind]

the board would notice the flux range changing due to the wobble adding in extra flux and have compensation that adds more deadzone

so for example say kom has total flux range of 1000 (just simple number for eg) and it wobble +-20 or whatever

and lekkers has 1000 +-200

[honest nacelle]

Board averages the +- value and then creates a deadzone that compensates for it

[tawdry tree]

so the wobble at bottom out (which causes slight fluctuations at bottom out) make the board increase the deadzone?

[honest nacelle]

Yes

More wobble, more compensation

[glacial wind]

yeah, at least that's D's theory

[tawdry tree]

If there is no wobble?

[honest nacelle]

Practically impossible

But then no compensation

There'll still be a deadzone

But it won't have any additional compensation

[tawdry tree]

Not no wobble in the switch, no wobble during the measurement.

[honest nacelle]

Also not possible

But same effect as no switch wobble

The algo behind the boards are in charge of averaging the flux values to set definitive 'distances' for ap/rt/deadzonen

[tawdry tree]

So, Lekker’s deadzone in the video being 0.3mm is because during the press, it fluctuated that much because of wobble?

0.3mm -0.15mm so 0.15mm.

[glacial wind]

well technically it'd be because during all the calibration, not during the press

the board is always calibrating

it's always recording values

[honest nacelle]

More than likely lekkers deadzone being 0.3 is cuz the base deadzone is 0.1 (due to minimum upstroke) and then compensation for wobble is 0.2

And so total flux variance is probably equiv to 0.4mm

And half that + upstroke

[tawdry tree]

So, let’s say you used a TTC KOM without top housing, which would dramatically increase wobble, its deadzone would increase accordingly (to a certain extent)?

[honest nacelle]

Yes

[tawdry tree]

How would the board differentiate between a fluctuation because of wobble and a fluctuating because of an other source?

[honest nacelle]

It can't and doesn't

[tawdry tree]

i.e finger jitter.

[honest nacelle]

That's called a skill diff

That's alos why people recommend not going full sensitive

Cuz it's not the boards fault and all you can do is either A) get good or B) increase the deadzone

Which you do by making it less sensitive

[tawdry tree]

So on the highest sensitivity, if you jitter (with your finger or something else) the deadzone would increase?

[honest nacelle]

Likely no

Since you cant reliably jitter your digber in a way that would make autocal think it's just a bad wobble

Finger*

[tawdry tree]

Hmm, the flux change with wobble and with a jitter can’t be close to identical?

[honest nacelle]

Not really no

[glacial wind]

realistically it'd be unrealistic for it to be close to identical

[honest nacelle]

It's different kinds of flux variation

[glacial wind]

you'd have to have the weirdest finger control ever

[honest nacelle]

There's probably a higher chance of getting micron level tolerances from switches than you have of reliably jittering your finger in a way that triggers autocal

[tawdry tree]

Hemu’s software has a fluctuation display for switches, if it’s reliable, with Lekker’s I should see a variation of 0.1>mm correct?

If it’s reliable.

[honest nacelle]

Yep

I'll test it on my rakka later today

[glacial wind]

does hemu show mm?

i thought it was just flux

[tawdry tree]

it’s just mm

[honest nacelle]

I get both flux and mm

[glacial wind]

oh so the different boards show different lol

[honest nacelle]

The numbers I gave jet are loosely based on values from my board

[tawdry tree]

That’s mm

yeah

[honest nacelle]

I would wager top num is mm, and bottom is variance

[glacial wind]

So far D's theory makes the most sense to me as far as explaining the behaviour of why more stable switches seem to impact it more

[tawdry tree]

yes it is, top shows how far it’s pressed and bottom shows fluctuation.

[honest nacelle]

Tbh ion think anything else would make sense

[honest nacelle]

Also autocal is a lil disingenuous cuz it tweaks distance for 3.5mm switches iirc

Like

Say 4mm bottom out is 1000 flux

And 3.5mm is 800 flux

And you set ap to 1mm

It'll do 250/1000 * 800 for it's flux value

Or technically the average based on algo

[languid summit]

if i wanted to paint my black plastic wooting 80 case white what would i do

or how

[marsh saffron]

Sanding it would likely be necessary

You can probably spray can it, and would probably want to do a light clear coat

[dapper hazel]

least complaints of all products :)

[fallen pecan]

Sweet cf plate(not mine)

[dapper hazel]

needs forged plate :D

[sacred elm]

Need!

[fallen pecan]

no forged sadly, only white/black fr4, white/black pom, cf or pc

[hollow dagger]

just switched my plate to fr4 and noticed a huge sound upgrade with my setup

but to be fair I think I deformed my PC plate a little too much

My alu plate is taking forever to arrive but tbh I like how it sounds right now

[spare mauve]

This might fix my spacebar 🥹

[honest nacelle]

Not true btw - HE sensors are more accurate the closer the magnet is. TMR sensors are more accurate the further away a magnet is

[young wagon]

Can i change the Switches from the Stock Wooting 60HE?

[stray tiger]

I think the part that a lot of people tend to ignore is that we arent really measuring magnetic strength per say, we are measuring the voltage changes due to the magnetic change.

I'll talk to the backstage guys and see if I can get some clarity on the deadzone theories you guys have, but in the end I wonder if it's really just voltage tolerance or compensation

[honest nacelle]

Yea

[young wagon]

Okay Thanks!

[solar tiger]

sup son

u got discount?

[sacred elm]

Huh

[stray tiger]

https://tenor.com/view/speak-english-pulp-fiction-do-you-speak-it-gif-16440534

[ionic breach]

https://tenor.com/view/wooting-wooting-discount-gif-16127564805953428582

[stray tiger]

Wooting does not do Black Friday discounts

[solar tiger]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1286041038212829225/1292907681455145030/attachment.gif

[young wagon]

But why you dont do this, is there a reason?

?

[solar tiger]

https://tenor.com/view/get-out-angry-speaking-head-tuco-squidward-gif-13808874276609302886

[honest nacelle]

I suspect it'll align similarly with my theory, but do you know if wooting has any plans to update wootility to show raw flux readings/precise distance/both

[ionic breach]

its explained in the latest stream

[solar tiger]

waited forever for blackfriday deal so sad

[marsh saffron]

They don't keep stock as is

[ionic breach]

||could have just asked earlier ||

[marsh saffron]

No need for a sale, as a sale would also put their backorders to 4 months from now

[young wagon]

Someone knows this type of keycaps for the Wooting (Iso)

[marsh saffron]

Pudding keycaps

[young wagon]

I Know

But dont find some good ones for ISO

[stray tiger]

I think it's ok to share this info but I think the answer is "maybe" I've talked to Simon about it before and used some of the non-public tools for testing, but he has some other stuff that would/does provide this info. Not sure when/if it will make it into Wootility because if needs special firmware.

[marsh saffron]

Oh, yeah idk any

[honest nacelle]

I see, maybe when I reacquire another wooting I'll see if I'm able to get that firmware and/or hopefully it'll be a beta feature or something similar

Ig I'll stick to my rakka for now

I'll do my own testing in Jan when I get back

Should get koms with my a75 ultra, jade pros this week, and have the other ks20 switches

I'll see if it lines up with the numbers eyejoker out up but I'm limited to ~0.02mm

[stray tiger]

There are some debug modes on the Venom as well, not sure if that's publicly available. There is also some limited testing so show base debug data in the public interface

[honest nacelle]

I have yet to get a venom but I do have one reserved

Lots to come next yr

[stray tiger]

Looks like this

[honest nacelle]

Well, would be Dec if I wasn't on holiday

[stray tiger]

You can see the reading changes as I was taking the screenshot, hence the red keys

[honest nacelle]

Yea almost identical for the rakka

~3500 for 3.5mm switches, and ~4000 for 4mm switches right?

Well actually the autocal on rakka is super aggressive and I get funky readings all the time

But generally raws are ~3450-3500

[stray tiger]

I have not swapped the switches to test yet, but those are RAW's currently installed

[honest nacelle]

Oh interesting

That's really funky

I wonder if flux saturation readings change depending on the quality of the sensor then

Wait geon is using tmr?

[stray tiger]

I'll swap one out real quick just to see what the change would be. Any particular switch you want me to try or just a non-grain gold 4mm one like a Lekker v1

[honest nacelle]

Not particularly fussed

Maybe a jade to compare the same dist

[forest hare]

thats good, and do they make noticable difference in sound and feel?

[honest nacelle]

Geon is apparently using tmr sensors cuz the flux readings are inverted

Unless I'm tweaking out

[stray tiger]

Left to right RAW, Jade, Lekker V2. This tells me the RAW and Lekker V2 have the exact same magnets, which is expected

[tawdry tree]

For Woot’s boards what I said is true. 40 different possible actuation points over 3.3mm compared to 40 different possible actuation points over 4.0mm is what the last part means.

[stray tiger]

Ignore last screenshot, wrong keys

Left to right
RAW HE, Lekker V2, Jade, Lekker V1

[tawdry tree]

KS-20 V1/old (Lekker V1s), Lekker V2, TTC Magneto - KOM V1.
First vid shows wobbling in the center of the keycap and second vid shows wobbling around the edges of the keycap.

Not really sure how to test for a dynamic deadzone on Woot’s boards.

[dapper hazel]

usually do yeah

[forest hare]

anyone knows about good wrist rests for the Optimum wooting case?

[forest hare]

I still not sure how the film works, doesnt it replace the pad between PCB and plate? do you need to disasmble the switch for it?