🔌│tech

[wet canopy]

for ddr5

either way

if you're building a new machine, then yeah DDR5 is starting to make sense

still on the higher end of price

[ashen spindle]

unless you want a board that only is in stock for ddr4

[cursive summit]

Well cheapest alright mobo I see with D5 is 200$ for a B660

[wet canopy]

yeah I have a decent board for ddr4 stock speeds

[ashen spindle]

alder lake can do both but the boards cant do both

[wet canopy]

then you need to buy the RAM

so it isn't unfeasible, just needs more budget

[cursive summit]

Which costs the same amount as high speed D4

[wet canopy]

maybe

it gets to the point where it's just chasing high numbers on benchmarks

but yeah like I was saying, it's starting to make sense when they're getting really close in price

will probably continue to get cheaper

[astral haven]

The problem is the high speed d4 is faster on alderlake

Esp tuned

[mild dome]

Yeah DDR5 doesn't quite make enough of a difference in games to be worth paying for. With the money saved you could spend it on hardware instead like a bigger gpu. At leadt until DDr5 reaches price parity.

No doubt as cpu ram controllers improve (eg the new ryzen cpu are boasting much faster ram support then Intel), and manufacturers figure out how to make higher clocked, lower latency modules the performance difference will grow quite wide

[junior ore]

It's about future proofing

Eventually you'll be needing to start using up DDR5 loads

[astral haven]

no

ddr5 is SLOWER

it takes more time for the data to go from the ram into the cpu and vice versa

but the standard allows for much faster ram to exist than currently exists

[junior ore]

Sounds like an optimization issue than, you know, an issue with the tech itself

[astral haven]

no?

[junior ore]

Or a cpu that isn't working right

[astral haven]

nope

[junior ore]

You can't say it's slower but also say faster

[astral haven]

you can run the calculations (tho the calculations are alot more complicated than converting area into length)

[junior ore]

Again you can't say it's slow and then say it's faster

That's a contradiction

[astral haven]

ok so i have this jet engine here that is 3 inches long
and it produces less thrust than a turbine engine
but i can still say that jet engines will produce more thrust once scaled up

because there is a physical limit to how fast you can spin propeller blades. if they pass the speed of sound your thrust drops to 0

the same is true with ddr4 and ddr5

[junior ore]

So this goes back to what I said :V

Eventually you reach the higher speeds later

Even if for now not so much

[astral haven]

but not with current hardware

[junior ore]

Yeah that's still called future proofing

Go back to what I said

[astral haven]

ive lived through this before

[junior ore]

Ans, thus : its faster

[astral haven]

look at the 6700k

[junior ore]

I didn't pay attention to Intel for years

[astral haven]

😱 wow we need to buy ddr4 because ddr4 faster

[junior ore]

Yeah, it eventually was

It's still better than ddr3

[astral haven]

everyone paying attention
no that cpu will never run the faster ddr4

and guess what

[junior ore]

So?

That has no bearing on the dimm slot

That's the fault of the cpu creators

[astral haven]

poof
the 6700k had insane amounts of trouble running the modern high speed ddr4 sticks

it barely supports 3200 with nice ics

with less than optimal ics it maxes at 3000

[junior ore]

Once again :

[astral haven]

and if you want to run dual or even quad rank? no get rekt

[junior ore]

Just because the CPU is slower doesnt mean the slot is slower.
The fault is in the inadequate CPU. You keep repeating this.

[astral haven]

the 6700k could run 2400 c10 ddr3

ok so what do you buy that is future proof

[junior ore]

You buy non-intel because its planned obsolecense within a year or two.

[astral haven]

ok so you buy amd
what amd do you buy that is future proof as you want

[junior ore]

If you go AMD, youll at least get a chip socket that can support better chips to do better speeds

[astral haven]

name 1

single

ddr5 chip from amd

[junior ore]

How about going from Ryzen 1 to the latest? Its 4 generations of cpu chips

Dude you know its gomna come

[astral haven]

none of those support ddr5

[junior ore]

You

Arent reading

I didnt say thay

Im showing AMD supports generation gaps

[astral haven]

you said that you should buy ddr5 because its about future proofing

[junior ore]

Yeah

[astral haven]

spoken like a true user who has never actually tried upgrading

[junior ore]

AMD will come out with their own soon

[mild dome]

You would have to replace the CPU, and the RAM in order to take advantage of this future proofing, as the current (Intel) CPUs support very low speeds, and the current DDR5 kits support very low speeds
Depending on if the chipset supports future CPUs and if Motherboard manufacturer designed their board to support higher speeds that also might need replacing

[junior ore]

Never rried upgradi g what? The fuck you on about?

I wen5 from a Ryzen 1600x to a 5900x

[astral haven]

if you bought b350, you were unable to replace the cpu with 3rd gen for 2 entire years of 3rd gen existing

[junior ore]

Thats a fucken upgrade

The 230s are meant to be budgets iirc. Also try updating firmware?

[astral haven]

b350

[junior ore]

If the manufacturers release a firmware update

Not all chose to

[astral haven]

b350 did not have support for 3rd gen for the entire year of 2019
and only at the end of 2020 did they start to have that firmware exist

and holy moly was it buggy asf

[junior ore]

And? Thats called buying a prosuct early.

[astral haven]

????

[junior ore]

And look, you admitted it later supported it, buggy or not

You cant say it didnt support it and then say it does. The year is 2022.

Fucking

Shitty autocorrect

[astral haven]

ok but on intel you paid the same amount in total and got better performance back then and better performance now...

[junior ore]

Typoed that

On intel you pay over price for cpu and motherboard

And then you cant jump a generation

[astral haven]

if you at the time bought heck a 5775c (from 2015)
you would have had better performance until 3rd gen released
with significantly cheaper everything

[junior ore]

I agree it would be better to get another MB. But thats not the point.

[astral haven]

if you wanted brand new everything sure amd was cheaper multithread performance

[junior ore]

The point was you can put the damn vhip in the same damn socket and firmware update it

[astral haven]

but it was aloooot slower in games than even several year old intel cpus

[junior ore]

LOL. Yeah sure

I guess you missed out on the 5000 series

This isnt 2015 where that was true

Hell even 3000 series

Both of them were rocking the price for performance ratio

[astral haven]

i have 5000 series
it didnt come out in 2018
it didnt even come out in 2019
it didnt even come out in 2020

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16195/a-broadwell-retrospective-review-in-2020-is-edram-still-worth-it/23
and 3000 series was SLOWER than a 2015 chip from intel

running DDR3

[junior ore]

Wha

[astral haven]

what ryzen got you was ultra cheap at the low end
and COARS at the high end

[junior ore]

Hold onw

[astral haven]

not gaming performance

until 5000 series

[junior ore]

Wait

Ryzen 5000 series came out in 2021. What was your point in listing the years?

[astral haven]

ryzen 5000 was the first series from amd to outright beat devils canyon and broadwell-c

[junior ore]

Also

Look at the chart you shown in the link

You seriusly expect a 3600 to be high performanfe chip?

Thats extreme dishonesty

[mild dome]

That is quite dishonest I agree

[astral haven]

the 3700x is there too

and both are faaaaaaaaaar more expensive than a 5775c

[mild dome]

You are comparing a $400 bucko chip to $200 one

[astral haven]

i got a 5775c, nice ram, and a beautiful board for $150

[junior ore]

No its not lis5ing 3700

You lrgit ja e the low end chip compared to the high end chil

[junior ore]

I hate typing on This phone

[astral haven]

the 5775c was RELEASED IN 2015

[junior ore]

Irs not even the 3600X

Um

What?

Im talking

Ryzen 5000

[astral haven]

yes
ryzen 5000 was the first time it was a good idea to buy amd for games

[junior ore]

And if you look st this chart. So is 3000

Tjats a 200 dollar chip

Competing high on that chart

[astral haven]

before that it was far more price efficient to buy either last gen intel or the gen before

[junior ore]

And those intel chips more than double and triple the price

[mild dome]

Yes, but the 3600 released 4 years later gave you 2 more cores for half the price of the price. It wasn't a good gaming CPU, but it could still push the ol I7's poo in on highly threaded workloads

[astral haven]

sure when they were released 5 YEARS before

[junior ore]

So you werent really saying the trust qhen yoh said the 3000 was trash compared to older generstions tjan it

[astral haven]

red dead is known for being a relatively threaded game

[junior ore]

Hey how about

We find something less biased

[astral haven]

sure

[junior ore]

https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_ryzen_5_3600_review,24.html

This is the gaming part

[astral haven]

wow look at launch the 3600 is exactly on par with a slightly cheaper intel chip

[junior ore]

You can see that, overall, cpu doesnt affe ting gaming too much

[junior ore]

Honestly CPU affecting game performance hasnt been a thing since 2006

Not as heavily anyways

[astral haven]

and to noones surprise the best price/performance chip is an intel chip

[junior ore]

When was the 8th gen intel released?

[mild dome]

Yeah an i3

[junior ore]

Lol

[astral haven]

early enough to appear in a launch review for 3000 series

[mild dome]

Lower priced chips get you more performs per Dollar, as it's diminishing returns the faster you go

[junior ore]

@astral haven thats not how that works

Lers look up dates

2017

Ryzen 3600 : 2019

[astral haven]

zen 1 was garbo

[junior ore]

Okay now

[astral haven]

undebateably

[junior ore]

Leys compare a 2019 intel chip of the same price range

[astral haven]

zen 2 was useable once patched

[junior ore]

I agree, Zen 1 was rushed and not gokd

Which intel gen came out in 2019?

[astral haven]

9

[junior ore]

I think it was yeah 9

So lets compare to those

Which is fair

[mild dome]

Like the 3000 series wasn't famous for outpacing Intel in totality. It was popular because when you drew a like for like between the chips and performance AMD gave you a little bit extra for a little bit less only barely loosing out on gaming performance. Especially since AMD at least tried to make the AM4 socket universal making building a PC with AMD cheaper.
The 5000 series is what blew people away

[astral haven]

sure

but its revisionist to say that 3000 was faster

[mild dome]

I never said it was for gaming

[astral haven]

when it was at best on par with 4 year old chips

[junior ore]

Aaand oh look they are nearly the same

[astral haven]

if you wanted perf and you wanted it cheap it has always been old chips

[junior ore]

https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-9600K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-3600/4031vs4040

Conparing two 200 dollar cpu, how about that.

[astral haven]

the 9600k was faaaaaaaast if tuned

[junior ore]

Looks honest and fair

[astral haven]

but its actually a pretty overpriced cpu

[junior ore]

We arent counting overclocking

[astral haven]

the 9400f gets you the same performance then

and it saves you $50

[mild dome]

UserBenchmark is infamous for altering results to make Intel look faster

[astral haven]

yea just ignore the weighted results

the top numbers are bs

this stuff works

(that i didnt censor with bs)

[junior ore]

Yes exactly.

If its scruoulos and untrustworthy then dont use any of it

So stop posting it

[astral haven]

🤷 the united states isnt trustworthy yet alot of good science comes out of it

and you posted it

[junior ore]

LOL false equivelence

Way to be dishonest man

[astral haven]

actually no this happens to be a very very good analogy lmao

[junior ore]

Imma go to sleep

No its not

Peace

[mild dome]

This 5775C seems to have been faster then most Intel Chips depending on the game/setting, and seems to have achieved this using a separate high speed Cache

[astral haven]

yep

[mild dome]

Sort of similar to AMDs new 3D chip stacking

[astral haven]

no

it was waaaaaay less inspired and aloooot slower

but it happened to work well

[mild dome]

I imagine when Intel gets their 3d stacking thingo active we might see them make another attempt at this with better results

[astral haven]

probably

hope they dont just throw it away when it doesnt make great results the first iteration

they did try again in the skylake generation (which is what you have posted a picture of, thats not a 5775c)
but it wasnt attached properly, so it only really helped the igpu

[mild dome]

Hey the website I stole it from made the same mistake

[astral haven]

heres a 5775c

you can tell its a desktop cpu because its squareish

i have one
and a 6700k
and toying around with overclocked memory is so rewarding on z97 compared to z170

[junior ore]

Y sleeping difficult

Lsts all go back to cartridge CPUs

[astral haven]

oh god no

[junior ore]

Lol

[astral haven]

every single instance of that was atrocious

the only cartridge slots i accept on my motherboards are for other motherboards

[junior ore]

Pretty sure it put intel on the map, i think

Well

For quake

Idunno im rambling as i e haudt myself

[astral haven]

https://www.asrock.com/news/index.asp?id=8
dont sell me a motherboard unless i can change the socket by putting in an upgrade module

better image

[fair gull]

as we can see this was such a good idea everyone does it nowadays

not to mention all the jumpers it had

https://discordjs.moe/637ssiozahm5.png

[astral haven]

what do you mean that jumpers are bad for carrying pcie data?

but fr i think that setting a few jumpers once sounds pretty nice to avoid having to switch the entire rest of your board

I can see this being more useful in the future (heck with my plx riser im already basically doing that)

[fair gull]

why even need jumpers

just make the socket itself socketed

big ass 5k pin array or smth

10cpu generations supported

[astral haven]

it used different ram

and a different chipset

[fair gull]

do the same for ram

and chipset

[astral haven]

ok so you need to connect the ram directly to the cpu
so you run that on the replaceable side of the socket
oh you also need the chipset itself
and the vrm controller
so you might as well put the vrm
oh hmm now you dont really need that many pins any more

[fair gull]

10k pins

i get it

[ashen spindle]

Speaking of, once again only two gene and new board layout comes https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-14th-gen-core-desktop-meteor-lake-allegedly-requires-new-lga-2551-socket

Two gens of big.Shittle and it’s over lmao let’s see how long am5 will last

[thick elk]

I really wish amd makes it as long lived as am4 I never thought that much of it but buying zen 1 with a good motherboard and drop in replacing to a 5800x3d is quite a huge step up.
Makes me more willing to spend a bit more on a better mobo, if it lasts 2 gens.

[ashen spindle]

yeah I dont think it can last as long but I could see 3 gens at least

like I think it would be fine if we have 2 sockets till ddr6 or so, assuming that comes out at a normal time

instead of idk how many dozen it felt like for intel on ddr4

[thick elk]

At the very least long term support is in the interest of AMD, as there is much less of a burden on amd to immidiately get lower end chipsets running as well, Just comparing how cheap somewhat decent b450 mobo's still are compared to intel.
Makes them able to sell lower end cpu's for much more than intel, simply due to platform costs.

[cursive summit]

Why is Intel changing sockets every 2 days in general

Is their socket design so bad that they have to accommodate a new socket for new chips cause their data transfer or something is just really bad

[thick elk]

They don't want to deal with questionable compatibility and backporting.

[ashen spindle]

also more money for them since they sell board parts

[thick elk]

I think the biggest reason is simply that this is the way they have done it for a long time and are too inflexible to change their ways

AM4 has shown mobo makers are more than willing to provide updates for older motherboards.

[junior ore]

😂 thats a big oof

[cursive summit]

That probably made no sense tech sense wise

But yeah the fact you have to get a new mobo every 2-3 years, is, pardon the language, retarded

Zen released in what, 2017 and the last and latest Zen chips will work on some of those motherboards that released back then

[junior ore]

yeah its very consumer friendly

and produces a more healthy PC environment.

and produces less e-waste

my god the amount of reduces e-waste if motherboards weren't churned out like fuckin pokemon

[thick elk]

It's not just e-waste, it also makes the transition to a new cpu launch easier, as old motherboards can continue being sold, especially with usb-flashing options.
This is also good for mobo makers as they don't suddenly have to dump their stock of older motherboards.

[cursive summit]

TO BE FAIR

Having the ability to get a 5800X3D on an X370 is phenomenal

But

There is still like 3 gens worth of different mobos that were produced

AMD woefully mismanaged some of their launches, claiming that some people won't be able to support next gen on their old mobos

I would still rather prefer there being no mobo gens, and just stick with a single gen

[mild dome]

The newer generations support features that new chips bring in.

The problem AMD ran into though was that the chipset they designed didn't have enough storage for the microcode of all the chips they introduced, perhaps they didn't think they would release so many? Hopefully with AM5 they will futureproof the MBs by giving them enough memory where they can store enough CPUs till at least AM6

[cursive summit]

I don't believe we will have any new motherboard features for years to come

I would much rather them move onto a firmware based upgrade approach

Some B450s were future proofed to match B550s

Why can't B650s match B750s or 850s, etc

Just firmware update and you have support for next CPU lineup

That's a lot less ewaste

[mild dome]

You can't 'firmware' patch everything without driving up costs a lot (as you would need essentially another CPU glued onto the board). Say when they introduce newer connection standards like USB 5, thunderbolt, wifi, ethernet, and especially with DDR6 and PCIe 6 as those would require stronger standards to maintain signal integrity. It's simply cheaper for the consumer to release a chipset that has the functions inbuilt, rather then making it entirely programmable

Though AMD has done something I have never seen before on a consumer board, their x670 MB uses two chips for the chipset instead of the usual one, hopefully that helps with future proofing the boards for features and they won't need to make a x760 soon (though I doubt it)

[junior ore]

what do you mean "you can't firmware patch without driving up the costs" like no this is a standard feature thing for motherboards for, like, 30 years :V

[ashen spindle]

you can firmware patch new cpu support but not features like pcie 4 on a pcie3 board...

[mild dome]

There was a keyword you missed
"You can't 'firmware' patch everything without driving up costs a lot"

But to be more precise in my words. you can't make a chipset capable of receiving an advanced firmware patch capable of giving it features that did not exist when the chipset was released. It's possible, but you would need a chipset that is so advanced as to make it a processor in it's own right driving up costs. You could make such a chipset like with Field-Programmable Gate Array (FPGA) tech, but it just costs a lot and most consumers wouldn't be willing to front the cost.

Even with FPGA though if you wanted to make a chipset that say had extra PCIe lanes or USBs, you might be out of luck as the chipset might need more IO and transistors to actually push it

[cursive summit]

Can't you?

Wasn't B450 locked to PCIe 3 speeds until you updated the firmware so you finally got the full bandwidth

You could, in theory, mount PCIe 5 rails and just lock out PCIe5 until the technology is available on GPUs

[ashen spindle]

you mean on cpus

and b450 does not have pcie 4 because it was not made with standards for it so unlocking it wouldnt be stable

yes you can do that but then you add cost for a feature you cant use and might never use if you dont upgrade

but also you only can do that if the spec is finalized already

cant make a gen5 board if gen5 is not defined and usually once its defined its quite close to being in cpus anyway

idk how you expect a firmware to change how the signal traces are laid out on a baord

[shadow minnow]

Wdym just have everything connected through FPGA

And just change internal wiring

Not so hard

[ashen spindle]

youre missing the point

[junior ore]

so?

[shadow minnow]

A lot is relative

[junior ore]

^

it do be

[cursive summit]

To be fair

[shadow minnow]

Wdym I don’t see how a 3000$ mobo is an issue

[cursive summit]

I'd rather buy a 300$ mobo at launch with disabled features that would unlock in 2-3 years

Rather than a 200$ mobo at launch and 200$ mobo later again

[junior ore]

^

[shadow minnow]

But how when specs are not yet finalized

[ashen spindle]

you're quite naive if you think adding support for something that is not even in use would come so cheap

[junior ore]

soemtimes it does

[cursive summit]

Aren't they working on PCIe 7 already

[junior ore]

USB 3.0 is cheap

[cursive summit]

Like the technology is developing quite fast

The adoption is what's lacking

[junior ore]

aye

[shadow minnow]

Well thing is working on doesn’t help

You need exact specs

[junior ore]

these techs have to adapt to a consumer audience

and not only that, consumer audience hardware in general

enterprise hardware has always been far ahead

[ashen spindle]

I dont know what usb3 prices have to do with future proofing costs

[shadow minnow]

Unless you are a very big company can’t really just go forward without stuff totally finalized, even then it would be expensive to release sth

[shadow minnow]

Ngl same

[cursive summit]

We should talk about USB5 instead, which afaik is also a thing nowadays in the labs

[ashen spindle]

also servers aren't that far ahead anymore, in terms of what uses pcie5 sure but they are not on pcie6 or anything

[cursive summit]

And not a single USB4 device is available yet, I think

[junior ore]

because the latest USB's always outshines the previous? why wouldn't you go from USB 1 to 2 and then 2 to 3? it's huge differenceS.

[cursive summit]

USB3 isn't the latest?

[junior ore]

wait there's more?

[cursive summit]

We are about to get 4

[ashen spindle]

ok but how do usb3 prices now relate to what they would have costed when usb2 was the only thing...

[junior ore]

when did USB 5 become a thing?

whats 4 @_@

[cursive summit]

Wtf are you talking about

Why tf did they skip 4 and jump to 5

[junior ore]

you mentioned new tech is never cheap. I don't think USB 3 tech was expensive when it first cropped up.

[cursive summit]

This isn't Half Life Episode 3

[junior ore]

oh i thought you mentioned they were working on 5

when i never heard of 4

[cursive summit]

USB4 is like, completely functional

Just not implemented in any product afaik

[junior ore]

wait, is USB 4 thunderbolt?

[cursive summit]

Kinda

[shadow minnow]

I resign from this discussion
Have exams on Monday anyways

[ashen spindle]

we're on about a board that has future stuff so a firmware can patch it in, of course usb3 tech would have been expensive at a time where only usb2 was a thing

[cursive summit]

Has native support for it but you can't use thunderbolt features without the controller

Which is still Intel's tech that they won't give up

[ashen spindle]

and usb5 is something we have seen in intel demos last year already

[junior ore]

the time for screaming is now

[ashen spindle]

or I guess thunderbolt 5 technically

[junior ore]

but WOULD it actually have been that much a price increase for the feature?

or

is it just a marketing thing cashing in?

[cursive summit]

Who knows

[junior ore]

i don't think manufacturing it would have been overtly expensive.

[ashen spindle]

does buying chips cost more if nobody uses them yet so you are the first people to order them? yes of course

not as much as a pcie upgrade probably

since that comes with increases pcb layers

[junior ore]

honestly i think a total redesign of the motherboard needs to come to really push things along.

[cursive summit]

Tf would you replace the motherboard with

A motherboard?

[junior ore]

like, allowing the fastest methods for GPU to receive and transmit data

[cursive summit]

So, a motherboard

[junior ore]

no i mean, design wise

[cursive summit]

Just updated every 2 years

We ain't that modular yet where a single connector has infinite throughput

That's why we have these biyearly mobo releases

And why it's a bit of an ewaste generator I imagine

[junior ore]

but what if something crazy

like

return to monke : two PCBs with the components in the middle connecting the two

[cursive summit]

What

[ashen spindle]

so, a pcie slot connecting the boards

[cursive summit]

Crossfiring PCIe?

[ashen spindle]

hmmm sounds familiar

[junior ore]

no it's

a very old retro style of electronics

where they would have the two PCB boards but all the components are between them.

i gotta find out what the name was... been years...

[cursive summit]

A sandwich

[ashen spindle]

so put gpu and cpu next to each other so you cant cool either anymore?

[cursive summit]

Sounds like something Apple would do

[junior ore]

no, wasn't meaning those components.

if i find it again i'll throw it up on here.

it's stupid idea 😛 but a curiosity.

[ashen spindle]

an ibm power system?

with VRM slots for vrms?

[junior ore]

no it was legit as if you snapped a motherboard in half and put the two together.

[crimson wigeon]

Sure, why not moar power

[junior ore]

also that reminds me of the old cards for retro apple computers

[ashen spindle]

dont see what advantage that would bring since you would still need pcie or something to transfer data

[junior ore]

where if you wanted a windows on your computer, you could straight up PCI/ISA plug an all-in-one board with... probably a powerpc yeah. with windopws on it 😂

[cursive summit]

Only thing this reminds me of is those dual socket mobos for servers

[mild dome]

That's real old tech you are talking about that was rendered obsolete before even the IBM PC

[junior ore]

exactly. thats why I said "return to monke"

[ashen spindle]

https://tenor.com/view/austin-powers-dr-evil-how-gif-19601238

[junior ore]

lol

legit want this

[mild dome]

The future of CPU IO is to give the CPU a motor attached to a one of these and use morse code to talk to the components

[junior ore]

remember them 90s of ads and mags of circuitry being cities and stuff?

[mild dome]

Gimme gimme translucent cases

[junior ore]

okay how about this crazy idea : what's faster.... the traces on the motherboard or optical laser?

[ashen spindle]

I dont think consumer hardware will get drastic changes aside from maybe CXL in the next years

[junior ore]

CXL?

[mild dome]

If you are measuring by pure speed of the signal light would always win, the problem with using optical though would be having a circuit at either end to convert the light back to electrical signal which I imagine would incur a delay

[ashen spindle]

Compute Express Link

[pale sigil]

Ew

[mild dome]

Basically some dudes got sick of waiting for the PCIe forum to make the next standard (recall that there was a big delay from PCIe 3 to 4), and made CXL

[ashen spindle]

dont think thats really the case as its based on pcie5

[cursive summit]

CXL is that cool thingy where the world's biggest enemies came together to make shit better for all of us right?

Intel, Nvidia, AMD, ARM and stuff like that support it

[junior ore]

but what is CXL exactly?

[ashen spindle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp9L7OClb2U

[astral haven]

Correctamundo
Direct attach copper cables have a latency advantage of about 1ns at the same length, as long as the length is the same and there are no repeaters
Also electricity propagates at the speed of light in copper (which is faster than the speed of light in glass)
The reason we use fiber for everything is that fiber repeaters require no circuitry, and you only need them if your run is insanely long. The worst smf travels 500m no problem

And we use mmf for lots of bandwidth that fits in a small tube

However inside of computers the reason that Intel is trying to go optical is that these insanely fast connections between components are reaching the limits of what copper can handle, and if you throw in a pcie repeater for example you instantly throw away 5-12 ns
That is the equivalent of converting to optical and back 5-12 times

[fair gull]

uinless i misremember electricity travels at the speed of light thus there should only be the difference of converting the electrical signal to light and back

if there even is a delay

[junior ore]

I can't say I know the speed of electricity, but I think the big thing is capacity as mentioned by Carmonben.

[cursive summit]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-demos-actual-arc-alchemist-desktop-graphics-card

[astral haven]

Electricity moves at the speed of light in copper
And the speed of light in copper is faster than the speed of light in glass

[cursive summit]

I don't think Intel has any chance of competing in current gen

[astral haven]

Competing how?

[cursive summit]

Before they even manage to release enough cards to saturate the market with them

Next gen will come out

[astral haven]

Oh
You are assuming that current gen is their target.

[cursive summit]

At that point their top end card will compete against a -500 or -600 series model

[astral haven]

That's already the case pretty much

[cursive summit]

Doesn't sound very competitive

[astral haven]

Define competitive

[cursive summit]

Compelling perf/value

And perf in general

[astral haven]

Ford competes with ferrari

Yet their cars are slower

But no one cares because the fords are so much cheaper that they don't even compare them

Intel has the cash on hand to just sell these cards for cost to build market

And due to being integrated, they pay alot less than amd or nv do per transistor

Obviously Intel doesn't actually plan that far ahead so they will make the radeon mistake of selling them for microscopically less than a slightly faster card from Nvidia and then get destroyed in day 1 reviews.
And at that point it doesn't matter if you drop the prices, the public perception is bad value

But they could if they wanted sell 10s of millions of these cards by selling them for super cheap

^

There used to be a $50 to $100 GPU market
And there were solid GPUs in the $70 to 120 range

[fair gull]

idk how relevant capacity really is over such short wires and tight circuits

[mild dome]

I know air-core fibre is something in development that could speed up fibre by a lot

[fair gull]

vacuum would be even better

[cursive summit]

It's amazing to see RX 580 is back to 150$ pricepoint

Used to be 120$

Great value for that amount of money

[junior ore]

it's part of overall efficiency, no? The load of what is carried within the length of time distance is traveled. If one's super fast going point A to B, but requires multiple trips... it wouldn't be faster total.

unless it was just that fast enough between multiple trips*

[astral haven]

A single fiber can carry more data than x16 pcie which requires 64 copper traces

And trace routing is big pain already

Where with fiber it's just get from start to end without turning too sharply

The speed of signals on motherboards are getting so high that we are running into transmission line effects which are big pain

[astral haven]

It's unlikely to help or matter, what we really need is the silicon photonics chips to be integrated like Intel is working on

Silicon photonics hype

[fair gull]

oh that capacity

u see talking electrical i thought of capacity as in capacitance

not data capacity

[astral haven]

Capacitance is really really bad for data transmission lol

[fair gull]

20pF/ft

[reef patrol]

https://twitter.com/WatcherGuru/status/1533106970630270982

Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru)

🚨BREAKING: Bored Ape Yacht Club and Otherside Metaverse Discord servers have been hacked. Millions worth of #NFTs reportedly stolen.

Likes

10072

Retweets

2698

Twitter · Jun 4, 2022, 3:22 PM

https://twitter.com/joshuamartian/status/1460929458152431622

Jellicle Josh (@joshuamartian)

@ShimermanArmin @IraStevenBehr @qtrcirclejab @JenKatWrites The Trouble with NFT's

Likes

20039

Retweets

7846

▶ Play video

Twitter · Nov 17, 2021, 11:15 AM

It's almost so hilarious it belongs in #🐸│memes

[true quest]

sir please post links in appropriate channels 😎

[reef patrol]

[reef patrol]

Why Logitech - Why must you tempt me with colours

[frozen ingot]

well you can't see it while wearing them anyways

[reef patrol]

No but I can see them lying on my PC in matching colours

[frozen ingot]

wonder when they'll put rgb inside the cushions

[old marlin]

no mic arm

man that mic sure sounds terrible

[reef patrol]

Really? The review I read had a pretty nice sounding sound byte

[old marlin]

all I have heard sounded abysmal

but maybe I have my standards too high for wireless bs in general

[wheat plume]

Wireless is BS

[old marlin]

no

[wheat plume]

Sounds worse than headphones 1/3 the price

You need to charge them

The mic is terrible in most of them

[old marlin]

value proposition
obvious drawback
not inherent problem

there just are no brands that do both good audio in general and good wireless

[ashen spindle]

yeah I really notice every day the trouble that my headphones only can be used for 23 instead of 24 hours before charging

and thats because battery degradation lmao

6 years ago it was fine for at least 30 hours

[wheat plume]

I had wireless headphones about three years ago
None of the games I played managed to send audio to them
And I could only hear the sound from anything else

[fair gull]

use windows ez fix

[wheat plume]

I was

[old marlin]

how does that translate to all wireless audio devices

[ashen spindle]

so you had a broken product

[wheat plume]

Ez fix

[old marlin]

to begin with

your PC just sees them as a serieal audio device

just like a USB DAC or a USB headset

[wheat plume]

Sony dun goof?

[old marlin]

unless you use bs bt

bt is just shit for gaming

[wheat plume]

It was Bluetooth

[old marlin]

cause latency

yea lol

got your problem then

[wheat plume]

Yeah
The latency was not a problem

At least for videos

[fair gull]

bt should be iradicated

[ashen spindle]

wireless, no issue, comfortable and all

[old marlin]

have heard decent stuff about sennheiser epos

mind you

[wheat plume]

And they cost like 600?

[old marlin]

not actually THAT sennheiser

[old marlin]

how did you get to that conclusion

[fair gull]

brand

[wheat plume]

Cause usually ones with a stand cost a lot

[fair gull]

no?

[ashen spindle]

no lol

[wheat plume]

And it's senny

Senny expensive

[old marlin]

it's not a stand

first and foremost it is a transmitter

if I hear "senny" I am already malding over dankpods names

[wheat plume]

Does it charge them?

[old marlin]

sennheiser is not even espeically expensive

[ashen spindle]

it was 185€ in 2013

[fair gull]

the horror

decent prices

[ashen spindle]

yes the stand also is a charger

or I just swap out the batteries

[fair gull]

i think i paid more for my first wireless headset which were astro a50s

they trash

[old marlin]

73ms

not even that bad

not great

but better than expected

[ashen spindle]

idk if mine have any reviews, they arent being made anymore

[old marlin]

and MUCH better than BT

[old marlin]

I am pulling rtings data on the RS 195 RF

I assume the base tech is the same

[ashen spindle]

HDR180 so idk

[old marlin]

same tech

[old marlin]

tuning on them is dogshit btw

giga bassy

old people tuning

[ashen spindle]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

dont think I will replace them before they break

[old marlin]

yea not trying to stop you

[ashen spindle]

most annoying part would probably the time to break them in so they dont press against my head too hard lol

[old marlin]

[ashen spindle]

not like they lost all pressure but its nice being able to wear my glasses without feeling like they are pressed into my skull

[fair gull]

i just use giant springs for that

[old marlin]

most annoying part with what I use now is that they have close to no padding on the band

literally have not seen an image of them from an actual setup without any mods to increase headband padding on them

[ashen spindle]

I guess technically my next set of headphones will be the ones that the next gen valve vr will have xD

[wheat plume]

Wut

[ashen spindle]

well I doubt they will sell them without speakers

[wheat plume]

True

But you only using headphones for VR?

[ashen spindle]

huh

[wheat plume]

You said the next headphones you use will be the VR headset

[ashen spindle]

yes

im not planning to throw my current pair in the trash

[astral haven]

you are aware that you can keep the old device when you purchase the new one right 😛

[wheat plume]

Yeah
But when people say next in that context it usually means replacement

So I got confused

[astral haven]

I am very very tempted

i had really not looked into these in so long but dang these are tempting

[ashen spindle]

yes and a couple sentences before I said im not getting new ones till my current ones break, then I said "technically" because it was mostly a joke

[astral haven]

but on the other hand I want to save up for this

[ashen spindle]

ips? pleb tier technology :^)

[astral haven]

sure but its hdr2000 certified

well

[ashen spindle]

you mean the one that vesa said doesnt exist

[astral haven]

sure

[old marlin]

Lol

Also still

[astral haven]

but they are definetly working on it

[old marlin]

Shit contrast

[wheat plume]

Hdr2000inator

[ashen spindle]

tbh im just super happy the only qd oled monitor panels are exactly in the format I want lmao

[astral haven]

sure p2p contrast isnt fantastic, but its not bad

i really despise 21:9

[ashen spindle]

I cant go back after using it so long haha

[wheat plume]

I used to use 21:9

I only miss it when playing Minecraft ;_;

[astral haven]

I require multiple monitors

[ashen spindle]

still works with it

but maybe the real endgame woult be a super ultrawide and partition those

[astral haven]

the stuff I have just doesnt fit on 2/3 of 16:9

[ashen spindle]

fair enough

[astral haven]

which is half of 21:9 about

so I would need multiple of them

and then im dealing with breaks in the middle of the content

might as well have breaks between content, 1 item per monitor using 16:9 monitors

I would actually like a 4:5 monitor for that sweet sweet page size

but eh

[wheat plume]

GOOGLE IS STALKING MY DISCORD
WTF

[ashen spindle]

yeah if you cant make use of it it's not as great

[true quest]

you'll make use of it

not full use, but use for sure

at least it won't be the bottleneck

[astral haven]

oooor
i could just buy a cheap 16:9 secondary monitor (which I already did with this innocn) and get a top tier main monitor

cause find me a 2160p 240hz 21:9 monitor

that actually has at least 4k:1 contrast in checkerboard

[ashen spindle]

well, finding a gpu that can do it would be harder lmao

[astral haven]

meh I have a 3090

[wheat plume]

O.o

[astral haven]

and i am happy to lower settings at high reses

[ashen spindle]

that cant do 4k ultrawide either xD

[astral haven]

sure

but i want an upgrade of some description

i refuse to get less than 240

and it can definetly get over 200 pretty often at 4k

esp in fast titles

[ashen spindle]

I only had 100hz so 175 now is a good upgrade for me haha

still gonna need to grab a new gpu since too many things still cant get there for me now xD

[astral haven]

lel

next gen is gonna be pretty sweet at the high end

them caches on amd and dem koars on nv

[ashen spindle]

too bad I cant do an rdna1 and expect mining to be so great that I can sell my current one for profit xD

[astral haven]

anyways the main reason for still going with 16:9 is black bars

[ashen spindle]

not really an issue with games anymore for me

[astral haven]

on a 21:9 monitor, it either has grey bars in video, or it has light segments outside of the 16:9 area after you have watched a ton of 16:9 content

not gonna lie tho
at work I did try splitting my stuff up 8:9 to simulate half 21:9 and didnt like it
but now trying it out at home? its really not bad at all

[wheat plume]

I had so many issues on YouTube with videos using my 21:9 display

Especially music videos
They are shot in 21:9 but locked to 16:9 in editing

So you are seeing a 21:9 video locked to 16:9 on a 21:9 display so it takes up just a small portion at the center of the screen

[ashen spindle]

tf are you watching

[astral haven]

thats definetly not the monitor's fault either lmao

[wheat plume]

There is a browser extension that lets you remove the bars for 21:9 video

So that let videos fill the screen

[ashen spindle]

so it stretches the video to look fucking weird?

[astral haven]

i would assume it cuts top and bottom

[ashen spindle]

oh a zoom in

[wheat plume]

No
The video is already in 21:9 but they add black bars on top and bottom to lock it into 16:9 during editing

[astral haven]

yes and the extension removes those black bars?

[wheat plume]

Yeah
It just zooms in the way it needs to

[ashen spindle]

I kinda doubt it reveals a hidden part of the video so its just a zoom in

[astral haven]

so whats the problem?

[wheat plume]

Cause why tf do they add black bars

[astral haven]

you have a solution
whatever

the problem imo is all the 16:9 content

[wheat plume]

If the video is shot in 21:9 it'll get bars anyway in 16:9

[ashen spindle]

idk thats the first time I heard of it

[wheat plume]

Maybe the editor only exports to 16:9

[ashen spindle]

so idk what weird esoteric videos you watch

[astral haven]

handbrake has automatic black bar removal for example

[wheat plume]

It was literally most music videos that are in 21:9

[astral haven]

and handbrake supports a bazillion movie formats

[wheat plume]

I do like handbrake

Except the UI

The UI sucks

[astral haven]

the ui is disorganized but perfectly useable

BEAM

[reef patrol]

I have literally never heard of your issue, Lana. And honestly I kind of doubt what you're saying because ...

If you take 21:9 and squeeze it into 16:9 shits going to look weird - for everyone. Even 16:9 users.

YouTube supports 21:9 just fine. I have several videos on hand to show it

[wheat plume]

It's not squeezed in any way

[ashen spindle]

can you just link an example? that makes it easier

[astral haven]

post malone circles

[wheat plume]

It's just that YouTube thinks it's a 16:9 video because the bars are hardcoded in

[astral haven]

nope

[wheat plume]

Fullscreen it

[astral haven]

lel

[reef patrol]

I'm in bed. I'll take a look tomorrow.

[astral haven]

heres just 1 full screen screenshot

[wheat plume]

This is what I mean

21:9 video treated as 16:9

Hardcoded black bars

[astral haven]

Phone does this

Buuuut

[wheat plume]

Yeah
But that isn't hardcoded

[astral haven]

I can zoom

that is hardcoded what?

[wheat plume]

Even Netflix
Oh gosh

[astral haven]

yuup

[wheat plume]

I've boycotted Netflix so I've never used it

[ashen spindle]

guess I just have better taste and never had that issue

but stuff like this is just so gorgeous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aznxojO15M0

[wheat plume]

Yeah....
That's made specifically for 21:9

Ofc it fills the screen

There is a game review channel that talks about how games work on 21:9 and his videos also fill the screen

To get a 21:9 video out of your editor
Whatever app you use
You need to specifically set the project to be in 21:9 before you edit the video

Otherwise you get a 16:9 video with black bars

[ashen spindle]

sure I just have never watched any video where thats the case ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[wheat plume]

Do you already have the browser extension?

[ashen spindle]

no

[astral haven]

also you can just reencode after the video is already edited to just remove the black bars?

[wheat plume]

Yeah you can

But they usually don't

Unless it's 21:9 content specifically or the editor thinks about that beforehand

[ashen spindle]

but I am a bit sad about the state of HDR in games tbh

gonna replay witcher 3 when it gets the update later this year but its so delayed

and so badly implemented in so many games

[wheat plume]

I had hdr on onr time a month or so ago
My screenshots were incredibly high contrast
Like a deep fried meme but not as extreme

[ashen spindle]

do you even have an hdr screen...

[wheat plume]

Barely

[ashen spindle]

so no

[wheat plume]

It's got a certificate for the most basic level

[astral haven]

so no

[ashen spindle]

^

[wheat plume]

And Windows lets me use auto HDR

:')

[astral haven]

the dynamic range of your screen is not high

[wheat plume]

It did look different in games
But barely

[ashen spindle]

hdr400 is just marketing checkbox that you dont actually want to use

hdr600 idk never seen it in person

but probably still shit

[astral haven]

so think of it as bits of information

1k:1 = 10 bits of info

4k:1 = 12 bits of info

(in photography they are called stops)

hdr400 only requires 10 bits
hdr 600 requires 12 bits
hdr 1000 requires 14
true black requires either 16 or 18?

i forget

[reef patrol]

I can't wait to see these so called not21:9, 21:9 videos tomorrow.

[ashen spindle]

I should look up what those hdr true black400 and other ratings are

[crimson wigeon]

I thought it's just contrast not amount of bits (in regards to hdr400 and hdr1000 whatever)

[astral haven]

it is based on contrast

but its hard to quantify differences in contrast

2000:1 is only 10% better than 1000:1 for example

oh wow im way off

[crimson wigeon]

And most HDR today is only 10 bit from what I know (and 12 bit is the highest I've seen)

[astral haven]

4000:1 = 12 stops of dynamic range

this is bits of light data

not bits of color data

oled = 20k:1= 14 stops of dynamic range

[ashen spindle]

ok looks like the names make sense but its also a bit confusing since TB400 should be better than hdr1000 etc.

[astral haven]

well it isnt tho

in alot of circumstances

particularly when there is any light in the area around the monitor

[ashen spindle]

wouldn't be a tech standard if it had no issues xD

[astral haven]

nah thats just a physical limitation of light

ok 500 requires 12.2 stops of dr
600 is 12.5

1000 is 14.2
1400 is 16.1
400 says it requires 19 but that is only in a pitch black room, if there is any ambient light that doesnt apply

500 is 19.9 with same caviat
600 is 20.2

blender's renderer is 21 for reference

[mild dome]

I got the samsung g9 neo, which can go up to 1400 nits irc.

Sometimes when playing destiny it does get super bright, and when it gets dark it gets dark. Though the alienware oled is likely to exceed what it can do due to oled powa

[astral haven]

what model number

[mild dome]

Model number? I am guessing they released a slightly different iteration?

I preordered it so probably the first one

[astral haven]

check your settings

this is the 27 inch g7

for example

[mild dome]

Had to log on
Model number: LS49AG95

[astral haven]

yea so thats hdr2000

dual 1440p 240hz

[reef patrol]

@wheat plume That post malone video is not 21:9

It's 16:9. The editor thought it'd be cool to add artificial black bars.

Which is why it appears like a square with letterboxing on all four sides. 100% a "dumb editor" decision here, not YT's fault.

[astral haven]

YouTube's encoder could easily detect that and just remove areas that are completely blank the entire time.
You never receive the exact same video uploaded to YouTube
Youtube always reencodes it

[ashen spindle]

but then youtube will get angry words from people who did it on purpose so why bother

artistic vision and all that

[astral haven]

Lol YouTube doesn't care about that

This would save them probably several thousand dollars per day in electricity and bandwidth, so I do expect they will eventually implement some system like this

[ashen spindle]

but it just needs one frame of a subtitle being in the box for that to not work anymore so I still doubt it will change anything

[astral haven]

If they are baking subtitles they already can't be helped

[reef patrol]

It could - But it's still not YT's fault for these particular letterboxes.

Had the editor just mastered the video in 21:9, then 16:9 users would still get the CINEMATIC letterbox effect.

[wheat plume]

Yeah
That's what I've been saying

[old marlin]

There was an addon that automatically zooms in

Makes imake quality worse but at least you get to use the whole monitor

[ashen spindle]

yes thats what we talked about yesterday, the point was thats not really an "issue" with using 21:9 screen for youtube but just result of how people do it

[old marlin]

Ye ik faced the same problems when I still used a 21:9 monitor

[ashen spindle]

you still have those same issue on a normal monitor with those videos so it's not really a problem but more of a not automatically resolved QoL upgrade you can get

[old marlin]

On a normal monitor I get the same black bars either way though

[ashen spindle]

exactly

[reef patrol]

Yeah double letterboxing can be an issue - I've had to fiddle a lot with MPC to get it to show subtitles in relation to the window, not the video. Otherwise it shows partially offscreen when I force zoom into 21:9 on videos.

[reef patrol]

Retro tiem

[fickle ore]

@ashen spindle https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/tech/2022/05/419_330008.html

Ahh

[ashen spindle]

yup

[fickle ore]

what a great time to be alive

[thick elk]

Samsung was not that competitive on the lcd side of things anyway lately at least

[fickle ore]

finally the oppression ends

[ashen spindle]

well they only kept it bc covid demand

it was planned to be closed in 2021 or so

[fickle ore]

btw waiting to see how the msi/samsung oleds will turn out, since there is no stock for dell

[ashen spindle]

well sorta

but msi is going to use the same panel

and I doubt dell is having stock issues on parts other than the panel

I guess its possible they preordered more

[fickle ore]

ye I'm just seeing whether the input delay is caused by the panel, the scalar or the f/w

But it doesn't seem to be mentioned

[ashen spindle]

skimmed over the rtings review and it seemed only 60hz has bad lag?

[fickle ore]

ahh, thats a shame, guess they fighting for the same resource then ;:;

[ashen spindle]

tftcentral even got lower results

[fickle ore]

@ashen spindle ya 7,9 ms is terrible, most competitive TN panels have a signal processing lag of .2 ms

well it's not terrible

But definitely a bit more for now

Around 2 frames which is quite high at 175hz

[ashen spindle]

most screens with gsync module have a slightly higher compared to models withou the module

[fickle ore]

So I'm just kind of waiting to see what is the problem

[fickle ore]

Hmm, by that much?

[ashen spindle]

idk

also the 5.17 result would be less than 1 frame not close to 2

frametime for 175hz is 5.7

[fickle ore]

yeah true

I don't think it's the panel

Maybe they forgot to add "gaming mode" setting on the dell that bypass image enhancing stuff

[ashen spindle]

idk would need to find other screens with that resolution and refresh rate that also has the module

and then see if any of them get lower

[fickle ore]

Yeah dunno when they release the msi/samsung version

[ashen spindle]

has samsung even announced it yet?

[mild dome]

Does that include their gaming monitors? Because those have been pretty swell, though I imagine OLED would eventually overtake them as prices lower.

I can see why Samsung is doing it for TVs and the such, their new Quantum Dot OLED tvs are amazing

[ashen spindle]

all of it

[mild dome]

Guess that means my G9 Neo is Samsung's last LCD gaming screen flagship. I look forward to OLED, but man I hope burn can be prevented for at least 5 years if I feel a need to jump to the next display

[ashen spindle]

end of 2020 was the original closing date

then covid demand made it stay afloat

also keep in mind samsung display and samsung electronics are different companies

they will still have non oled monitors

just not with panels from samsung

[mild dome]

I am pretty sure the G9 Neo's VA panel is made by Samsung, actually I don't even know if they have an IPS that can compete on the gaming scene. You are right though, but I wonder if they will make high end displays like the G9, or if they'll leave that price bracket with LCDs in favour of making something like G9 OLED?

[ashen spindle]

they'll just use lcds from AU or so

no reason for them leave the market

[astral haven]

It does not have a gsync module

Gsync compatible monitors are not using the Nvidia custom board that allows 1hz to max refresh vrr and variable overdrive

Gsync modules are not compatible with amd freesync either

[astral haven]

And yea there's no processing delay from the gsync module
The gdync module is one of the fastest display drivers at the moment
It only adds latency when you are running very (but it's also one of the fastest when you compare vrr latency)

[ashen spindle]

its not gsync compatible its a gsync ultimate monitor

unless I missed them throwing out all logic and that also doesnt need a module anymore

oh and you're right, I read that the opposite way whoops

Some others can however remove pretty much all of the signal processing lag, and normally you see that on all Native G-sync module screens too. This model has the G-sync module but has a little bit of lag, perhaps related to the handling of the OLED panel – after all this is very different to LCD screens with the G-sync module.

[astral haven]

Alrighty then

I thought it was freesync compatible?

[ashen spindle]

it is

but that's been something that nvidia "opened" up a while ago

youre just not going to find anything higher than compatible if its also using gsync I imagine

[astral haven]

Strange
I am trying to find PCB pics but noone has torn theirs down yet

But I would be highly shocked if that thing has an altera module in it
That is insanely cheap if it actually has the gsync module

Esp the new one

The order one is pretty cheap at this point but the new one?

[ashen spindle]

dont think it has the latest one as its locked out of hdmi 2.1

[astral haven]

It's a thousand dollar fpga
The dev board for the fpga is like 20 grand

There's no possibility of it having that

[ashen spindle]

I would assume the new one has hdmi 2.1 so no this one doesnt have it

[fickle ore]

Ya I remember it being gsync ultimate, and can measure e2e lat on it

[astral haven]

The old module really doesn't have the bandwidth for ultra wide 1440p over 120hz tho
Maybe they have a newer module that is using a low end fpga?

[fickle ore]

the dell QD-OLED

the msi/samsungs won't be gsync ultimate

[astral haven]

Wait it has Nvidia reflex?

I thought only the 360hz ones got that???

[fickle ore]

NVIDIA Reflex Latency Analyzer

ye I think it has

[astral haven]

Oh wow nvm
The 3423dw isn't on the list but some 4k144 models are

[fickle ore]

@ashen spindle mebe knows

[ashen spindle]

idk I have a 6800 so I didnt look into what nvidia features it has

[astral haven]

Lel

[fickle ore]

n00p

[ashen spindle]

might have one at the end of the year, depending on what both sides release at what price idk

[astral haven]

I kinda want a 6900xt so I can say I have a 690 6990 and 6900
But that ain't happening for a whiiiiile

[ashen spindle]

man the eu list of monitors doesnt even have any dell monitors listed

[astral haven]

EU list?

[ashen spindle]

oh nvm they do the sorting is just dumb

the german site I got redirected to from google doesnt even exist

so I had to navigate to the uk one

[astral haven]

Oof

[ashen spindle]

small company, cant organize websites

[fickle ore]

I think the gsync ultimate should work with amd gpu tho since its just the module?

[astral haven]

The module usually isn't compatible with amd

[ashen spindle]

they restriced it for a long time

[astral haven]

Compatibility is a really really new thing

[ashen spindle]

but changed that a while ago

[astral haven]

It wasn't about restricting
It was using a custom protocol that and just didn't support

[fickle ore]

then u need a reflex supported mouse if that qd-oled is supported

;P

[astral haven]

Reflex supported mice just means they know the button to USB latency

[ashen spindle]

well it cant do the same but basic vrr was possible but just restricted to add in if they used a module or smth like that

[fickle ore]

yes I know

[ashen spindle]

either way I dont have a mouse that has it so couldnt test it either way

[astral haven]

The non supported mice still get the latency measurement it just doesn't include the latency of the mouse switch and processing

[fickle ore]

just get a razer viper 8khz something from discount

[ashen spindle]

ew razer

[astral haven]

I don't like buying hardware with built in worms

[fickle ore]

dont install software

but yeah

[astral haven]

The software is contained in the mouse

And auroruns the first time you plug it in

[fickle ore]

shrug dunno if they keep building on that supported mouse list or abandon it like their other projects

I'ma get atompalm 8k but doubt it'll get added

[astral haven]

It has the gpro wireless so meh

[fickle ore]

dunno if m2k is added either

[fickle ore]

ew logikek

that's good

[astral haven]

Logitech absolutely makes the best hardware
And their software is not autorunning worm bs

[fickle ore]

Na, Razer mice are better technologically in every way atm, and most have passed logi

[astral haven]

Except in the whole containing viruses part

[fickle ore]

Well, yeah

[astral haven]

If it was just oh don't download the software I'd be cool
But they autorun the software when you plug the device in

[fickle ore]

I just can't recommend logitech anymore since they are using failing switch tech and keep increasing debounce in f/w

such e-waste

You either do optical clicks or spdt latch or HE or you're dead to me. No more mechanical bs

[cursive summit]

Tf is the point of reflex when our peripheral latency is already far faster than any human input?

[astral haven]

Reflex measures the whole chain

And your visual system is able to start processing stimulus as soon as it appears, it just takes some time

[fickle ore]

Reflex analyzer is a tool that measures E2E latency (or tries to)

Not perfect, ofcourse

[cursive summit]

Like I can't really notice the 1 ms or so delay before anything that I clicked on is displayed on my shit

[astral haven]

You cant
but that doesn't mean you couldn't be taught to (if you had a monitor fast enough to tell a difference)

[cursive summit]

Meh more gamer mumbo jumbo

Same shit as Radeon anti-lag

[fickle ore]

not worth to explain to ppl, just condense it to "statistical improvements"

[cursive summit]

Only if it dispenses a chocolate flavoured sundae every morning

[final flame]

the main reason why I don't like this server

[cursive summit]

Anyways you analytical nerds, keep talking about weird numbers that mean nothing to 99.99% of people

[final flame]

or just mostly the Fortnite players here

[astral haven]

The brain can distinguish events 50ms apart (some person to person variance) as separate, so If your entire processing chain is over that it will be bad
If your monitor is 10 and your computer is 30, you only have a few ms left over for denounce and peripheral processing delay
And that only applies for events, not moving objects

[cursive summit]

Who says people can't flail their epeen around

[astral haven]

Moving objects the brain is far faster at identifying

[ashen spindle]

you getting 250ms on human benchmark test doesnt mean every number below that is "gamer mumbo jumbo"

[astral haven]

Yea lel

[ashen spindle]

and we all also know its not the thing that will bring you from bronze to masters either

[astral haven]

There are people down in the 120-130 range on humanbenchmark

[fickle ore]

I'm more of a masters to bronze these days

[fickle ore]

that's me ❤️

[astral haven]

Rly?

[final flame]

prove it then

[cursive summit]

Hm

[fickle ore]

cba

[cursive summit]

Always thought I was slow

[astral haven]

1/10k is pretty neat
And alot of eSports pros are in the 160 -200 range

The best of the best are in the 150 range usually

120-130 are outliers

[final flame]

my fastest is around 160

[astral haven]

Same

[cursive summit]

With training you can defo reach low 100s

[ashen spindle]

focus in game is also different than focus on a silly website

so the numbers arent 1to1 what you will have in game

[astral haven]

Yep

[final flame]

well it's a controled environment I doubt you'd get as low in a competitive environment

[cursive summit]

Sometimes the reaction time is so good, that the muscles hurt after the sudden movement your brain literally forces you to do

[ashen spindle]

quite the opposite, nobody is going to concentrate as hard on a silly website as when they are playing a finals game lul

[final flame]

it's literally flashing a green screen at you

you're anticipating that

[astral haven]

In the finals there is more to process than just is thing green

[final flame]

^

[cursive summit]

I used to use aimlab at times, it's quite fun

[ashen spindle]

sure and it's not consistantly higher, but if you're the last person in csgo and

whoops stupid enter

and its a 1v1 you know the other guy is around the corner you also anticipate it for example

[final flame]

nerves also play a huge factor, it may impede or help you

[ashen spindle]

and im not saying everyone gets better

I said the numbers are not 1to1 for a game scenario

[astral haven]

Yep
And pros tend to not have the fastest reactions, it's just how much info can be processed when reacting that makes the best players

If your reaction is 1.5x as long but you can process 3x as much info, that's really useful

[ashen spindle]

yup and in the end it doesnt matter if its 120ms or 250ms, other factors still matter so input lag from your screen matters even if that is much lower than either of those nuymbers

[fickle ore]

IQ is correlated with fast reaction time, too bad causation is not found

[astral haven]

[citation needed]

[fickle ore]

😉

[astral haven]

I am very confident that iq and reaction time are not correlated

[ashen spindle]

anyway, its not the winning factor and its not snake oil either but if you believe it to be, as fleimi said you arent forced to talk about it

[astral haven]

Iq was designed to avoid those sorts of correlations as much as possible

[fickle ore]

this kind of .. choice reaction time or IQ peaks at 30-35 yo

[final flame]

the thing that makes me more mad is people thinking it will give them a insane advantage

similar story for headphones

[ashen spindle]

sure but those people are usually younger than 14 so I dont talk to them lmao

and if not it's normally easy to convince them quite fast with science

[fickle ore]

it does give an insane advantage, but you need to define insane because it's probably different for you and I

[astral haven]

Hey the more people buying nice headphones the less garbage products in the used market for me to buy

[final flame]

not really if they buy gaming headphones

[astral haven]

Also the less likely it is for companies to completely ignore the audio products' sound wuality

[final flame]

insane as in a rank up

[fickle ore]

building up to 5-10% advantage is insane, compared to other sports.

[final flame]

or higher kd

[astral haven]

Cooler master and hyperx are both going to actually good driver manufacturers these days

And they really aren't doing that bad of a tuning job

[final flame]

those are exceptions and aren't the most popular option usually

[fickle ore]

Most games are made for lowest common denominator, you're fine with +300 ms humanbenchmark

[astral haven]

The hyperx cloud ii are insanely popular

And are using a very solid driver

[final flame]

the cloud Ii is quite the oditty in itself

[astral haven]

Nah
Those weren't popular for the sound, they were popular for the style

[final flame]

it's quite popular but not something someone will buy without a bit of research, people flock to turtle beach, astro and Logitech

at least for gaming

[astral haven]

Disagree with the wording but the idea is right
People will do some really hard stuff if they think it is easy lol

[astral haven]

Logitech has improved significantly
They have a new headset that uses the same chassis as the cloud ii

[cursive summit]

Improved to basic levels

[final flame]

the pro x is quite bad in terms of software and sound

[cursive summit]

Well done, one step closer to not sounding terrible

[astral haven]

Sure but it's an insane improvement from the g933 for example

[final flame]

I used to help people in the ltt discord and the headset that caused people the most issues was the prox

[astral haven]

Still an improvement from the Logitech of old

[final flame]

not like that was a high bar tho

[astral haven]

Before the 933 there was another model that always failed
I forget what it was called

Yep