Japan is weirdly futuristic and also stuck in the past
#🔌│tech
severe phoenix
Lol, I'd be itneresting to hear how you say for the better
Better not be woke "Japan isn't woke" shit
reef patrol
They can keep their weird ass festish for fax machines 😛
And extreme level of red tape.
final flame
imo having a physical copy of music is nice
things get pulled off of streaming services for no reason, not to mention there's no guarantee the music will stay around long
reef patrol
reef patrol
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/15/japan-cyber-security-ministernever...
Duh. They use floppy disks.
final flame
lemme tell you about data rot
and drive failure
never hurts to have another backup
final flame
Optical disks actually take far longer to degrade and lose data
severe phoenix
These days I carry around portable NVMEs for data transfer :sippy
final flame
compared to the average hdd which is about 10 max
I'll let backblaze do the talking
fair gull
the first issue is you compare write once to R/W media. Secondly CD/DVD life spans depend very highly on how they are stored and cared for. HardDisks depend highly on how much you use them having MTBF values etc.
CDs can last a good century but only if you store it appropriately
final flame
the first issue is you compare write once to R/W media. Secondly CD/DVD life spa...
CD's are good for archival media
HDD's are good for readily accessable media
severe phoenix
Poor Fiber guy, it's a torrentional downpour there and he has to put up the new line
Bad itming all around
fair gull
well
final flame
HDD's have data rot, if left unpowered for a extended period
fair gull
HDDs, SSDs and such have the mentioned power issue
they need to be powered every now and again
HDDs also demagnetize over time without power
final flame
HDD's do too
fair gull
it just takes a lot longer
also would guess the lube in the motor could get messed up when not running for a long time
final flame
I'd assume that applies to any hdd that isn't vaccum sealed, pretty sure
vagrant pagoda
Tape > hdd for storage long term
final flame
yea tape triumphs everything for just pure archive time
fair gull
HDDs still need to be stored in a controlled environment so temps dont fluctuate etc so that the demagnetizing doesnt happen any time soon
pretty sure the same goes for tapes
with CDs its mostly UV
vagrant pagoda
CDs too
And you have to get the fancy cd/DVD/blu rays
Normal ones don't last long
fair gull
yes
vagrant pagoda
Mold
fair gull
floppies are prob the worst media to store long term
vagrant pagoda
Floppy's get moldy
final flame
gotta get them 80gb verbatim archive disks
fair gull
optane is as bad as SSDs
vagrant pagoda
The issue with flash/optane is the density is too high
So a single cosmic ray can flip more bits than you have checksum
vagrant pagoda
But density on hdd is getting there
fair gull
anyway all ways to store digital data are susceptible to degradation
its always a question of time and how they are stored
thats not even what was discussed
this was about storing it
aka no power or other cables connected
shove data on it
and then put away
basically what CDs do nowadays
fair gull
imo bluray is not worth it for most normal people
final flame
anyway all ways to store digital data are susceptible to degradation
Time to start etching 1s and 0s into diamonds
as close to forever as possible
fair gull
at the point you need storage sizes adequate for blurays you might as well directly jump to LTO
like even older cheap LTO formats are better than blueray
vagrant pagoda
at the point you need storage sizes adequate for blurays you might as well direc...
Lto is less dense and isn't as neat for desk use
Any Blu-ray player will read Blu-ray disks
Do they even make a USB lto8/9?
vagrant pagoda
Got they have to expensive lol
vagrant pagoda
Not for density
fair gull
and unless you only wanna store audio, video and photos id say blurays arent as good
fair gull
yes but last i checked most bluray players for your tv dont just read about anything
not to mention i dont even know anyone with any sort of bluray reader
let alone a writer
fair gull
and density wise id say 1.6tb in the size of like 10x10x2cm
easily beats the 16 blurays youd need to store the same
fair gull
A external lto is 5000
which lto version
vagrant pagoda
Almost every PC other than micros is offered with a bluray
fair gull
45tb of BDXL cost you 5grand
vagrant pagoda
Also
fair gull
at that point get the writer and the tapes pay for themselves
vagrant pagoda
Where is a USB lto4?
fair gull
they come with adapter boards
vagrant pagoda
Where
vagrant pagoda
Only if you're storing tax records
vagrant pagoda
You're quoting the compressed size
fair gull
itll still be 45tb
vagrant pagoda
Which almost never gets half thst
And can be applied to the data going on the bluray
It isn't some magic tape only compression
fair gull
sure but BD doesnt offer it as easily imo
not to mention once its burned
its burned
imo optical media is best situated at DVDs
you can buy spindels for cheap
and if you make a mistake on one its not 10-15bucks you throw away
vagrant pagoda
Also normal high quality bdr is already 20 year rated
So unless you are buying some unobtainium long life lto
It's not a good comparison to archival disks
fair gull
i dont even know what id store 20years straight without any changes or just complete obsolescence of the data
reef patrol
Yeah old photos, music and game backups from when games were physical
fair gull
so what i tried to send was:
I though LTO was rated for 20-25 years depending on storage conditions (just like literally any optical media relies heavily on storage conditions)
ahhhhh discord
vagrant pagoda
Good optical is rated 100+
ashen spindle
fair gull
Good optical is rated 100+
i dont believe that one bit
and thats how the discussion started
the whole just taking googles top reply isnt doing actual research
i do like to see this whole thing scientifically tested but i wouldnt outright believe anyone just saying its rated for 100+yrs
ashen spindle
astral haven
24 core 7960x3d with an x3d die and a siena die?
ashen spindle
Don’t think client io die can do GMI wide needed for sienna
rough osprey
iPhone actually best console now
astral haven
wdym, x is the 25th letter of the alphabet...
reef patrol
Xbox 360 anyone?
astral haven
Don’t think client io die can do GMI wide needed for sienna
does it need it tho?
ashen spindle
Otherwise it’s not sienna and just regular zen4c no?
astral haven
wdym?
ashen spindle
Did not watch the video yet but I thought sienna is just different tdp and gmi config of Bergamo
ashen spindle
Yeah due to it using GMI-W instead of -N
Need to get back and watch so I can be sure I’m not mixing things up
astral haven
niiice
steep creek
sweet
severe phoenix
I had 20Mbps upload before.
lol
Kinda unbelievable how fast shit uploads now
Like uploading a 5 minute clip was this whole 20+ minute waiting pricess
Now it's like 15s.
ashen spindle
nice, now I gotta hope vodafone and go do get to this by like 2027 as currently planned at least
cursive summit
Ah, nice coincidence
Mention Blackwell, blackwell arrives https://t.co/qWrVXCiRZG
Funny that we won't see Blackwell in action for another 1.5 years prolly
ashen spindle
isnt even taped out yet doesnt mean anything
cursive summit
isnt even taped out yet doesnt mean anything
Yeah, they can change virtually anything in that time
Kind of insane to think that AMD will get a generational jump a full year before NV's next one
Unless NV refreshes their lineup
ashen spindle
not a full year and its not a flagship so not really insane
cursive summit
not a full year and its not a flagship so not really insane
Not a full year?
ashen spindle
likely more like 3 quarters probably
astral haven
and also if they are throwing away the flagship, what is the likelyhood of them actually competing hard with the 4090ti that nvidia already has in the chamber?
ashen spindle
flagship(s) not just one config is gone
astral haven
the 4090 is the most cut down flagship die we have ever seen
literally an entire 1070 or 480 worth of cores just gone
ashen spindle
yeah but it shouldnt scale linearly
cursive summit
likely more like 3 quarters probably
Depends when Radeon comes, but yeah about
ashen spindle
idk if they even compete with the 4090
cursive summit
Also, was that fully confirmed that RX 8000 is without a top end card?
Like, officially?
ashen spindle
as confirmed as any rumour till launch ever is
astral haven
nothing official ofc
but theres nothing official about blackwell
cursive summit
Cause lots of things are said before the full announcement comes and then the unexpected happens
I expect AMD to release a full range
ashen spindle
there are some things that can happen like rdna3 imploding, you dont suddenlt take a magic multi chip config out of nowhere
cursive summit
Do we know anything about the upcoming RDNA4 arch?
Architectural improvements prognosis, new features?
astral haven
its more likely that nvidia has an ad101 die in the chamber than that rdna4 having a card at or over a grand
4090 being ad102, and lower number being bigger die
ashen spindle
and given how unlikely a 101 is, yeah, N4X isnt coming out
think we know some snipped of rdna4 but nothing I remember on top of my head
severe phoenix
Having usses using the other SFP+ Port to connect via my PC though
Keeps going from like 100Mbs to 1000Mbps to 2500Mbs, can't keep a consistent connection
smoky frigate
looks to me like AMD is picking their battles where they can compete, which ain't at the very top end, but low-midrange
astral haven
but amd could compete there?
ashen spindle
they are picking time to market over having a "told you we can do this"
if they delay R4 to get big stick rolling r5 gets delayed etc.
and dGPU is not their main market anyway so that cant afford to delay gpu IP
rdna5 is needed for consoles, apus need to have working tech
smoky frigate
but amd could compete there?
I'll believe it when I can see it
astral haven
295x2 for example
ashen spindle
rdna2 did compete
ashen spindle
well it certainly wasnt low-midrange
astral haven
sure
smoky frigate
I mean strictly this generation, though in the past they have been lagging behind NV as well
astral haven
and this generation its again its a tradeoff
cursive summit
rdna2 did compete
Counterpoint: AMD doesn't need the top end 4090 competitor because they don't have the technology to be interesting at that price point
astral haven
what
cursive summit
Like, 4090 is not a gaming card, it's a Titan
astral haven
what??
cursive summit
7900XTX is just great enough as a gaming card
ashen spindle
man you got some weird takes recently
vagrant pagoda
4090 isn't a full die though
astral haven
vex please think for a few nanoseconds before typing?
vagrant pagoda
Still room for a Titan or ti
cursive summit
Are you going to say that we need something more than a 7900XTX?
astral haven
yes
ashen spindle
halo product = normies see it and are like "wow this is amazing, so I can only afford the 300$ card but if they win there I just take nvidia at 300$ surely thats the right call"
vagrant pagoda
Are you going to say that we need something more than a 7900XTX?
I mean have you seen starfield benchmarks
cursive summit
The only problem with XTX is price, other than that it's performance wise, pretty good
vagrant pagoda
the 7900xt struggles at 4k 120
And any meaningful rt load
ashen spindle
if you dont have the biggest gpu to beat down at prices nobody buys it for, then people dont care if the 7800xt is a good value
astral haven
like nvidia is closer to driving my monitor than AMD is, but both could easily make a gpu that is, and nvidia is closer to the reticle limit, therefore amd could have more performance increase available within the reticle limit
cursive summit
if you dont have the biggest gpu to beat down at prices nobody buys it for, then...
I'm sorry, what are you trying to say?
ashen spindle
if amd doesnt have the biggest gpu, people wont buy the smaller ones
cursive summit
Ah, you were missing a comma
cursive summit
if amd doesnt have the biggest gpu, people wont buy the smaller ones
Again, why would that even matter
I seriously don't understand how a halo GPU is needed
ashen spindle
mindshare is won by halo product
cursive summit
XTX is good enough for a halo for a good price
ashen spindle
it doesnt win
severe phoenix
It clearly doesn't like the Upload, it's rated for 2Gbps too, but oh well, I'll take it
cursive summit
it doesnt win
I don't see why it needs to beat the 4090
astral haven
it takes significant effort to find a chart where it wins
cursive summit
They beat the 4080 with the XTX, and they are way cheaper than it
4090 is a Titan, not a consumer gamer card
astral haven
but consumers buy it
and there are monitors that even it is not fast enough to drive
ashen spindle
its marketed as consumer card, it benefits in consumer workloads, it's cheaper than last years 3090ti
and if people look at to buy in gpu space they look at who has the best gpu because it's simple to think best card= best brand at any price point
thick elk
I am not quite sure the halo product is needed at all times. However as it stands with vendor locked Nvidia features in games with no open alternative that is as good. It's tough. Ryzen didn't need to be faster than intel before getting market share and growing.
cursive summit
its marketed as consumer card, it benefits in consumer workloads, it's cheaper t...
And is hoarded by companies and workstation enthusiasts
I genuinely do not understand the need for a halo product
ashen spindle
I can buy it at msrp online no problem
cursive summit
There are far more important issues than matching the 4090
astral haven
when you are spending 4 grand on a pc, an extra 500 for another 15-270% extra performance depending on the title is ez pz
cursive summit
Like trying to actually be appealing to professionals in general when CUDA is just faster than AMD's alternative at every single thing
Or trying to get FSR to match DLSS in quality and performance
Like, when AMD nails down the software and features part
Then we can start to wonder where are the halo GPUs at
ashen spindle
doesnt matter, if amd had dlss and it was best but not the best gpu people would riot
features dont matter
they matter when you are even or ahead
astral haven
nvidia probably spent more money in investments that allowed them to make dlss and geforce now than AMD actually has money on hand in general
cursive summit
features dont matter
I'll pull one from your book, and say that you have some weird takes
Features don't matter?
Like, think about what you just said
ashen spindle
if you have the best raytracing but your card isn't doing the non RT fps that others do, it's still not being bought
cursive summit
That's why I said quality AND performance
ashen spindle
you can worry about features after the rastererization beats the competition
cursive summit
AMD easily matches and provides far better value than any card that isn't the 4090
thick elk
Even if AMD has a faster halo, they still seem like common argument.
I feel like for AMD to win it needs to nulify the arguments, for nvidia. Even if the practical value of DLSS and better RT is not always there. It helps a lot for mind share.
That being said if you have the raw performance crown it could counter it, but it's still an uphil battle.
Consistently being the better value also helps with market share.
cursive summit
yeah so they cant match the flagship
The flagship that is what, 800$ more than the 4080?
ashen spindle
doesnt matter
cursive summit
Pretty sure NV hiked that 4090 price to 2000$ or something like that recently
ashen spindle
people look at it then buy the lower tier card for their price point
ashen spindle
Even if AMD has a faster halo, they still seem like common argument.
I feel like...
yes it's an uphil battle and having nothing else would make a hard sell but it's not a complicated market to push through if you have the big crown
cursive summit
people look at it then buy the lower tier card for their price point
Yeah I don't see it, sorry
astral haven
just because you cant see air doesnt mean its not there
ashen spindle
I mean thats how the market works, DiY space is not where most systems sell
thick elm
Hi my wooting started making a really high tone, really not loud but its bit annoying. Why is that?
thick elk
I still don't think having the flagship is the only way.
Consistently undercutting in price (and announcing your cards at the right price)
Better efficiency
Getting OEMS on board to ship your gpu's
Improving the software features.
Any of those will help a lot.
ashen spindle
average gamer wants the best gpu and if you have to say "well under these conditions and if you look at the price and consider x" to say amd is the better choice, they wont care what you sell them
astral haven
🤷 qlum thats purely theoretical
ashen spindle
Hi my wooting started making a really high tone, really not loud but its bit ann...
likely your LEDs at full brightness, try turning that down
astral haven
I still don't think having the flagship is the only way.
Consistently undercutti...
and none of those individually work as those have all been tried
ashen spindle
I still don't think having the flagship is the only way.
Consistently undercutti...
undercutting price is only possible if you have some insane cost savings method or think next gen is insane or are intel and need to somehow enter the market even at a near loss
OEMs will easily eat your entire stock if you have the best halo card to sell
cursive summit
Like, your argument that halo products matter, which is basically "prices dictate expectations", where Nvidia having the most expensive product somehow makes them more appealing doesn't work
Market segmentation is a thing
astral haven
no vex, market segmentation is purely memetic
cursive summit
High end buyers more likely than not know how to watch or read a review
astral haven
it doesnt exist in reality
cursive summit
And in mid-end AMD has the clear advantage, imo, in performance and pricing
thick elm
likely your LEDs at full brightness, try turning that down
thats was it, thanks
astral haven
if nvidia sold the titan v for $500, everyone would have bought it instantly
but when amd sold the radeon v for 400, everyone laughed
ashen spindle
"hey computer guy whats the best gpu"
"4090 from nvidia"
"damn thats insane, cant afford that so I'll buy a 4070"
that's the kind of thing how people decide on what to buy
cursive summit
Also, remember that RTX 4060Ti is in competition with 7800XT, some people still compare GPU model numbers if they know nothing about reviews or just the market, so there's also that
thick elm
likely your LEDs at full brightness, try turning that down
is that forever now or do they recover when i stay on low now?
cursive summit
"hey computer guy whats the best gpu"
"4090 from nvidia"
"damn thats insane, ca...
"hey computer guy whats the best gpu"
"4090 from nvidia"
"damn thats insane, cant afford that so I'll buy a 4080"
"AMD has a better card than that for cheaper that's 7900XTX"
astral haven
"hey computer guy whats the best gpu"
"4090 from nvidia"
"damn thats insane, ca...
thats a fantasy world lel
ashen spindle
is that forever now or do they recover when i stay on low now?
usually means you are sensitive to high pitched noises so likely around until your hearing gets worse xD
astral haven
i have mine set to reactive when im typing, and I dont notice it
thick elm
usually means you are sensitive to high pitched noises so likely around until yo...
ahh nice
ashen spindle
"hey computer guy whats the best gpu"
"4090 from nvidia"
"damn thats insane, ca...
replace computer guy with oem seller or random youtube video or marketing slides they see and then you dont have someone that would offer an alternative bc why would they
first thing to remember is consumers are fucking stupid
cursive summit
replace computer guy with oem seller or random youtube video or marketing slides...
And why is any clerk going to pitch Nvidia over AMD? Perhaps mainly cause there's a major feature disparity between the two that's giving Nvidia free marketing as the far better option?
"Oh AMD sucks at RT" "AMD sucks at upscaling"
old marlin
they just reinforce the "nvidia is faster" attitude
cursive summit
Well then why would you buy that?
ashen spindle
no because halo winner means they can sell for more
cursive summit
AMD needs to fix their features first, that's the most important part
old marlin
no
astral haven
@cursive summit the difference between your scenario and quins is the difference between explanation and rationalization
quin (and many others) have made an observation based in reality, and provided an explanation
you have found a way you want the world to work, and have come up with a way that that could be true
cursive summit
RT is irrelevant yet it just gives Nvidia more mindshare
Cause Nvidia is hard doubling down on pitching RT as this big thing
They have the RT advantage, and they are the ones with hearts and minds
ashen spindle
if a 6800xt loses only 5% for RTX features but starts at 50% lower fps than a 3080 already nobody cares
cursive summit
So Nvidia can easily push the narrative that RT is important, and we are the only ones with good RT, so we are the better company
ashen spindle
they push features ON TOP of winning raster
old marlin
raster is first and foremost
cursive summit
raster is first and foremost
Where last I checked, AMD is performing very very well for cheaper
astral haven
So Nvidia can easily push the narrative that RT is important, and we are the onl...
again rationalizing, this time from nvidias pov
but its the same argument you are making
cursive summit
Not efficiency front, that's where AMD needs to do better
ashen spindle
performing well for budget does not matter if they dont win
thats just what people look at
cursive summit
But after AMD continues gaining in rasterization and fixing their features, while also performing well in value front
smoky frigate
amd is second best option and has been for years
old marlin
yea otherwise more people would own 6650xts 
cursive summit
Then they can start going "halo"
ashen spindle
thats just not how any gpu market ever worked
astral haven
amd is second best option and has been for years
yea well they are trying as hard as they can to become the 3rd lel
smoky frigate
yea well they are trying as hard as they can to become the 3rd lel
kinda. weird times, where we hope for INTEL of all companies to succeed, lel
ashen spindle
that aint happening thankfully/sadly
astral haven
🤷 as long as amd doesnt fade into irrelevance, we dont need intel
but amd is trying as hard as they can to avoid winning against nvidia
except for in the laptop space
ashen spindle
no they are actualyl in the best position right now as they ever were
roadmap wise at least, not for current offerings
astral haven
this is the most pessimistic roadmap i have seen from them lmao
maybe amd has realized how awful their projections were before and fixed it but that will need to prove itself
ashen spindle
they have mi300 working, they are getting super advanced packaging down before nvidia does it to not run into issues for lower nodes and decided to not delay rdna5 by fixing rdna4 with brute force to have a massive win there, at the same time as the next console cycle
thick elk
As for the hole halo thing, I don't think it's the only way but it could very well be the only way for AMD.
Nvidia could sell itself while being slower on other selling points AMD at that point really just has price and partnerships as an option.
Also for OEM's Cuda makes Nvidia more versatile especially in laptops sold to students / professionals as well.
ashen spindle
can that plan fail? totally, but I think it's a much better shot than just hoping nvidia fails and you have some miracle uArch that wins
astral haven
they have mi300 working, they are getting super advanced packaging down before n...
maybe dc market ill give you that but ive never really cared about dc market before 2 years ago
im talking consumer roadmap
amd has always had a path to way better than nvidia on the roadmap
until now
it always fails sure
but the plan was there
ashen spindle
except they still do just at staggered pace
astral haven
what?
thick elk
I think the easiest win for AMD is to take a good hard look at their marketing department and improve on the messaging front.
ashen spindle
rdna 5 is coming somewhat shortly after blackwell, it's not going after blackwell-next
astral haven
I think the easiest win for AMD is to take a good hard look at their marketing d...
nah i think amd has somehow managed to stoke the community into rabid fandom to their massive benefit, and if they mess that up, radeon at least is definetly dead
amd is probably better at that than nvidia
considering the arguments online seem to be about equal fervor
and nvidia has 4x the userbase
ashen spindle
so them working out mi300 while nvidia is just doing grace-hopper and have some pcie issues on that already means amd should have the advantage of practical experience to make something not monolithic work whereas nvidia doesnt have big chips in productino that use anything like that
ashen spindle
yeah but thats DC stuff, that's nothing transferable to client
smoky frigate
who knew that in the 21st century, instead of console wars we'd get GPU wars
astral haven
its pretty obvious that the only way forward is chiplet
ashen spindle
N4X/N4C was chip on chip akin to mi300 just on different scale
and you can bet rdna5 is not going lower on that
astral haven
mi300 chip to chip gets slaughtered by nvidias chip to chip
mi300s advantage is in chiplet
and nvidia doesnt have chiplet yet at all
yet nvidia is still winning
ashen spindle
yes I meant chiplet to chiplet not mi300 to mi300
ashen spindle
thats why I'm saying the currently have chance because they have knowledge on how to make that work and use it on client platform while nvidia is stuck making big monolithic
astral haven
but despite that advantage they are still losing...
ashen spindle
which I think is more optimistic than your average roadmap of some uArch being better
astral haven
quin, they already have chiplets on gpu
ashen spindle
yeah bc rnda3 got fucked but not from the chiplet part
astral haven
if nvidia figures out chiplet, what can amd do?
ashen spindle
yes but I think its more likely it takes them longer than it is that amd just has a superior uArch out of nowhere
thats why I think the roadmap is not more pessimistic than older ones (that never got met)
astral haven
what?
amds only chance is if their roadmap is more pessimistic than their old ones
in fact is so pessimistic that it ends up being as pessimistic as the old ones were optimistic
ashen spindle
now I just dont get what you mean
astral haven
amd has a roadmap to losing to nvidia
ashen spindle
I thought you meant you have a pessimsitic view on their current roadmap
smoky frigate
if that's true, linux fanatics gonna need a lot more mental gymnastics to recommend AMD over nbidia lel
astral haven
amd has a roadmap to losing to nvidia
if this roadmap is correct, amd just loses
ashen spindle
what roadmap maybe we should start with that
nimble canopy
ashen spindle
no shit we arent in 2025 yet
astral haven
^
ashen spindle
that's why we talk about "if this happens"
astral haven
smoky frigate
performance and efficiency leadership? that's optimistic
astral haven
if they yeet 4x, they are done
ashen spindle
at the time of that roadmap it certainly was what they expected
smoky frigate
2020 shook things up good lol
ashen spindle
ok so you are strictly looking at the current known roadmap im looking at including rdna5
astral haven
has amd projected how good rdna5 is gonna be?
ashen spindle
no but we dont really need to have that
astral haven
before you say that imma say they need 2x over rdna3
ashen spindle
if we assume like any generation it was supposed to beat the previous gen flagship aka N4C, and comes like 2 quarters after blackwell
actually let me use paint
smoky frigate
at the time of that roadmap it certainly was what they expected
I dunno, they have been promising it time and time again. I remember Polaris being marketed at this huge deal, and on release, it was like a midrange NV card (if memory serves). been permanently disillusioned with them when I bought a Vega. what a piece of shit!
astral haven
it was competitive with the top of nvidias low end cards, maybe the bottom of midrange
ashen spindle
I mean what marketing says to sell you something vs what engineers/leaks/rumours and slides on investor days say isn't always the same
astral haven
but vega was targeted to win against nvidia, and it just failed to do that
ashen spindle
raja curse, man just cant beat the 1080 ti
smoky frigate
they overclocked the shit out of that card, and it couldn't even cross the finish line
astral haven
🤷 perf just didnt scale well, they didnt clock it that high
ashen spindle
yeah but I neither really was into hardware there so cant speak to vega nor does it really matter since I dont put my expectations on zen5 based on bulldozer either
astral haven
sure but amd was at least optimistic about bulldozer before they fabbed it
ashen spindle
just like rdna 3 
smoky frigate
that's true. I don't see the course changing though
ashen spindle
what are you looking at though to decide that
smoky frigate
eh, maybe I am too critical of them.
ashen spindle
here thats my expectation (relatively roughly) and witht those launch dates
oh fuck off microsoft I want to speculate and not read this https://twitter.com/wiz_io/status/1703759418507026663?s=61
gusty kiln
kek, looks like a close up of a patchy beard
reef patrol
smoky frigate
oh fuck off microsoft I want to speculate and not read this https://twitter.com/...
HAHAHAHAHHA
astral haven
here thats my expectation (relatively roughly) and witht those launch dates
sure fair enough
and while you may be right, if amd doesnt have a plan for making rdna5 that much zoomier, it aint gonna happen
ashen spindle
yes im basing it on n4c being massive, next gen likely improving so assuming nothing happens (again) its not a improvement over just N43 or whatever we get but over the original idea
my assumption is just with trying N4C and having mi300 onwards working, they are in a sport where they can use that to make a winning design by leveraging that over just monolithic IP
astral haven
sure but i suspect if nvidia figures out chiplet, amd just loses
astral haven
client blackwell no chiplet?
and yea i see good things for amd by making apple competitive chips
ashen spindle
GB20x monolithic for consuemr GB10x DC with potentialyl chiplets
astral haven
so no consumer gb102???
ashen spindle
just a naming but there would be gb202 as the big one most likely
astral haven
the precedent for naming starting with 2xx is pretty awful gpus on the nvidia side yikes
oh tho i suppose 980ti wasnt bad at all
ashen spindle
eh its just if/because two different gens on same name
astral haven
🤷 p100
ashen spindle
thats a one off not a seperate uArch
astral haven
thats a one off not a seperate uArch
v100 also existed
cursive summit
Will we be able to see what's under the heat spreader?
astral haven
no
ashen spindle
Will we be able to see what's under the heat spreader?
watch dr cuttress video he mentions that
cursive summit
watch dr cuttress video he mentions that
Could you just, idk, say it?
Oh come on
Replaced by a marketing exec
astral haven
seperate uarch at different time
v100 to tu116 was as similar as p100 to p102 cores
cursive summit
Graphene is hella cool
I hope that eye tracking means we'll get those futuristic "Click where you look" glasses soon
Although how would you cram an OS into a portable format like glasses, idk
smoky frigate
imagine that future for ad banners, geez
astral haven
Although how would you cram an OS into a portable format like glasses, idk
literally a year old now
smoky frigate
"Accept Jesus and win a FREE Nintendo Switch!" click
cursive summit
imagine that future for ad banners, geez
They would really want that
Tech is progressing into more and more invasive practices
Which is sad
Hope that google chrome thing they are doing will not pass
smoky frigate
whether wholesale taking people's attention away from what their doing is ethical is a discussion that society still needs to have
astral haven
do you know how many ethical discussions for society that we havent done?
its incredible
smoky frigate
I'd say at least a dozen!!!11
astral haven
id add another 2 orders of magnitude to that lel
cursive summit
Beatlink?
astral haven
on the other hand tho, the #1 application for glasses for me is facial recognition of other people and retreiving data on them
astral haven
yep
astral haven
how many times has that been explained to you? lel
but yea its just worse than the steam deck besides for use with the egpu
young pecan
Although how would you cram an OS into a portable format like glasses, idk
I mean you can cram all the shit an Apple Watch does into that format, glasses are just longer and thinner. It's doable.
Rough probably, but doable.
halcyon moss
I don't remember if I payed that game or not
cursive summit
I mean you can cram all the shit an Apple Watch does into that format, glasses a...
Wouldn't glasses be far more demanding on the GPU front than a watch?
I doubt it's doable, but maybe
But if it is, I'd be very interested in such device
young pecan
Oh I'm not saying it'd be fast by any means, but the format is viable. That's more what I mean.
cursive summit
Tbf, let's be real, "Glass OS" would be what, FHD?
young pecan
Though my bigger question is how you produce something like this while making it actually align to the average eye. Glasses are notorious for needing custom frames and sizing for literally everyone.
cursive summit
Something like Snapdragon 8g2/g3 could easily run FHD and support android/whatever
Just, where do you stuff the internals
astral haven
Rough probably, but doable.
read the article i linked to vex, qualcomm already did it
young pecan
Yeah that feels a little cheap.
astral haven
cheap???
young pecan
That's like AR headset lite. I'm talking like actual glasses, not something that can kinda almost be glasses if you squint.
Just needs giga thin tech.
misty saffron
can somebody please explain to me why only the right speaker is humming when there's noise in the circuit
cursive summit
can somebody please explain to me why only the right speaker is humming when the...
Your left ear is clogged
misty saffron
definitely not
smoky frigate
bad sound card
young pecan
🤷 those are however glasses
They're the kind of glasses 13 year old me would have drawn if I was trying to imagine tech glasses in 30 years. 
cursive summit
DAC/AMP problem probably
Or just try twisting the audio cable lol, sometimes the contact is bad
astral haven
They're the kind of glasses 13 year old me would have drawn if I was trying to i...
well if you are currently 43, you would have been right
misty saffron
nothing wrong with those as well i'd imagine, it used to be that both speakers were humming
now it's only the right one
smoky frigate
lol
misty saffron
it only hums when gpu gets loaded also
smoky frigate
bad shielding
misty saffron
so it's just noise in the circuit
young pecan
well if you are currently 43, you would have been right
I am 25. 
Off by a good 2 decades.
misty saffron
anyways, what would be the best way to get rid of that shit?
smoky frigate
anyways, what would be the best way to get rid of that shit?
do you have a laptop?
astral haven
https://www.rayneo.com/products/tcl-rayneo-x2
here it is finally productized, and its only slightly larger than the glasses that just took pictures
misty saffron
no
astral haven
anyways, what would be the best way to get rid of that shit?
check for grounding, and make sure your neutral is connected properly
young pecan
https://www.rayneo.com/products/tcl-rayneo-x2
here it is finally productized, an...
Ngl
misty saffron
check for grounding, and make sure your neutral is connected properly
i'm almost completely sure there's no ground in this house
astral haven
i'm almost completely sure there's no ground in this house
well that could be your problem
misty saffron
that i can't do anything about
young pecan
Yeh you can.
astral haven
thats probably not true
young pecan
Power smoothing.
astral haven
if you own the place, call your utility
misty saffron
i don't
astral haven
if you dont own the place, call the landlord
misty saffron
it's an apartment building
young pecan
The general way to solve not having ground is to introduce your own, fix the house, or set things on an isolated circuit and jank it.
misty saffron
gl with that
astral haven
its their responsibility that you dont shock yourself to death
if you cant get ahold of the landlord, get ahold of the fire marshal
young pecan
Remember, anywhere there's ground there's ground, run a cable. 
smoky frigate
connect the neutral to a downspout I guess
young pecan
^
astral haven
please no diy grounding
smoky frigate
or your radiator
young pecan
What could possibly go wrong. 
astral haven
esp if you dont own the place
misty saffron
so what's the best option to jank it then
smoky frigate
$5 USB to jack adapter for phones (really a cheap dac)
astral haven
so what's the best option to jank it then
pick somewhere to be the ground, and make sure you have zero resistance to all of them
misty saffron
$5 USB to jack adapter for phones (really a cheap dac)
my dac is isolated
it is the speakers that introduce the noise
astral haven
no
young pecan
To jank it? Find something connected to ground that nobody is touching and run ground into that. Needs 0 resistance.
cursive summit
I'm sorry what?
astral haven
it is the speakers that introduce the noise
the noise is in both speakers, but its running through both wires on the speaker that doesnt have the noise, and running through just 1 wire of the speaker making the noise
misty saffron
i don't exactly want to shock my neighbors
smoky frigate
all my water pipes are lead, like GOD intended
misty saffron
the noise is in both speakers, but its running through both wires on the speaker...
i mean they introduce it into the dac
via rca cables
young pecan
Oi Hollow, do you have like a method to run a really thin cable down a wall outside the building?
misty saffron
230v on a good day so it's fine
young pecan
Something nobody is seeing.
astral haven
i mean they introduce it into the dac
yes, so if it is introduced equally to both conductors on the rca cable, you wont hear it on the output
misty saffron
Oi Hollow, do you have like a method to run a really thin cable down a wall outs...
actually i can
1st floor
smoky frigate
put a note there asking for passersby to touch it for you. ez ground 👍
young pecan
Well what you could do is the thing every single sysadmin does when designing a rack. Run one of these down to the floor.
Find one that's like the same color as the brickwork.
Straight into earth.
astral haven
but also make sure theres zero other grounds first
young pecan
It's not great and you'd need to very, very well secure it, but yeah that's possible.
astral haven
if there is in fact another ground, you have just turned your grounding into a battery
young pecan
^
Gotta be crazy careful with this stuff, small fuckups can and will stop your heart.
smoky frigate
I have the SOLUTION
young pecan
That is fucking awful.
10/10
Anyone happen to know a browser that still supports TLS 1.1?
This is actually so obnoxious. Explorer is the obvious choice and refuses to run on Windows 11. 
astral haven
firefox i think?
young pecan
Nope. Modern Firefox just refuses.
I'm trying to connect to my R710 iDRAC and since the lifecycle controller is so far out of date it refuses to connect.
astral haven
lemme check, you can definetly install old versions of firefox
smoky frigate
Firefox 91 ESR apparently supports it
young pecan
Love to see it.
thick elk
maybe an about:config option
thick elk
firefox spinoffs like waterfox
young pecan
Firefox 91 ESR apparently supports it
91 ESR failed.
digital cliff
yeah the ones based on the time before quantum
smoky frigate
91 ESR failed.
shite
young pecan
Waterfox somehow works lmao.
Righto cool.
Right now we get to see how out of date this is.
smoky frigate
I heard if you get hit by a stray F-35 you get to keep it
young pecan
How is it possible to lose the most advanced fighter ever made...? The thing calls home with an obsession.
Well that's idiotic.
Double idiotic. What?
smoky frigate
they also announced they'll get rid of GPS and force their pilots to navigate via maps, sextants and star patterns
cursive summit
they also announced they'll get rid of GPS and force their pilots to navigate vi...
Very fooni
astral haven
Double idiotic. What?
if you can use it to id and count planes, the enemy also can
cursive summit
The decision to turn off transponders makes some sense?
F-35 incident in china sea
World's most advanced (even though the chinese already stole information on the plane years back lol) goes down to the bottom of the sea
Better turn off that transponder or chinese will get it
young pecan
if you can use it to id and count planes, the enemy also can
Ok yeah that's true, but having one just vanish like this and get stolen is a LOT worse than the enemy being able to count your aircraft. Never mind that there are more high tech solutions than 'remove ID'.
astral haven
yea its unlikely the competition will be able to locate it first tho lmao
young pecan
For example, polymers that become transparent with an electric charge. Be fun to make tail numbers with that. Wanna go dark? Hit a switch.
astral haven
if they lost it in the middle of mainland china or russia, sure but its in the middle of the us
young pecan
And it's not like the material science for the F35 is particularly brutal either. The thing barely cracks mach 1.
astral haven
For example, polymers that become transparent with an electric charge. Be fun to...
which are transparent to specific frequencies of light, and the enemies just add hyperspectral cameras capable of that freq among others
cursive summit
For example, polymers that become transparent with an electric charge. Be fun to...
Mate as much as that invisibility tech is cute, it's not getting implemented lol, too expensive
smoky frigate
Very fooni
it's funny until they crash into the ocean and sneakily float their makeshift boat past pirate ships. it'll come in handy, you'll see!!!
young pecan
Mate as much as that invisibility tech is cute, it's not getting implemented lol...
Did you forget what this thing costs in the first place?
cursive summit
Many hundred a millions
astral haven
Mate as much as that invisibility tech is cute, it's not getting implemented lol...
nah you are looking at it right now most likely
young pecan
which are transparent to specific frequencies of light, and the enemies just add...
Yeah that much is true. Different solution then.
astral haven
problem is a retrofit is a pain, so itll just take a while
cursive summit
And it's not like the material science for the F35 is particularly brutal either...
If anything the material science is far more advanced nowadays, we stopped bothering with speeds over mach 2 cause we realized that going fast doesn't mean shit
cursive summit
It's all about lightweight and radar resistant materials
Make that shit soak up those damn waves
Questionable why transponder wasn't turned on over the damn mainland U.S
If they were operating in south china sea, then I'd get it
astral haven
practice in the same conditions as deployment
young pecan
Oh yeah nah the 35 is great. And it doesn't flip upside down and kill the pilot.
Harrier.
cursive summit
Oh yeah nah the 35 is great. And it doesn't flip upside down and kill the pilot.
35 is great
Well, lot's of people would want to have a word with you
cursive summit
I think the problem with 35 is that nobody needs it
astral haven
wait 35 is vtol?
cursive summit
F-16 is good enough and that shit does the same thing that 35 does
young pecan
wait 35 is vtol?
Yeah.
astral haven
hunh
young pecan
It's kinda crazy.
cursive summit
Prett sure that was the one that also went down to the bottom of south china sea lol
astral haven
amazing
young pecan
VTOL that actually works in a jet isn't that ancient.
What we had the harrier? Awful aircraft.
cursive summit
Ei ei, don't shit on the harrier
young pecan
Shit had like a 30% lethality. I'd hardly call that working.
astral haven
yea, and if you can do it without compromising hard on everything you have a big w
young pecan
^
astral haven
what on earth is the deal with that front unit?
cursive summit
That Rolls Royce Pegasus engine on the Harrier was bonkers
young pecan
That's the second fan.
astral haven
does it do anything in regular flight?
young pecan
It has one behind the cockpit and it's for VTOL.
Needs it for balance.
Fires directly down.
astral haven
is it purely mechanical or is there combustion going on inthere?
young pecan
Yep.
astral haven
wonder if they could use it in flight to do crazy maneuvers
young pecan
Nah.
You need to open 2 parts of the top of the plane and one panel on the bottom.
Mid flight you'd rip them off.
Yeah that.
astral haven
yea but thats first gen problems imo
they can probably make it so that you can just activate it at will
not on thisplane but on the f45 or whatever
cursive summit
Those damn americans stealing tech off of a Yak-38 from 50 years ago
young pecan
Those damn americans stealing tech off of a Yak-38 from 50 years ago
Ancient relic, ngl.
astral haven
yea but i was thinking oh shit missile inbound and it needs more gs than just the aero can provide
cursive summit
Ancient relic, ngl.
Also the first operational VTOL jet in the world, afaik, 50 years back
young pecan
Lmao nah.
astral haven
dump the clutch and shoot upwards or even downwards
young pecan
Modern missiles you don't get to dodge. Once someone has a lockon your only hope is flares or ECM. If you lose both of those you really have no hope to avoid it.
Like there are some that will happily do like 70 degree turns.
devout raptor
What ya guys think, is a 4070 too powerful for a 5600x?
cursive summit
What ya guys think, is a 4070 too powerful for a 5600x?
Just fine
But that CPU is aging, would always default on 5800X3D on AM4
astral haven
yes and the more abrupt your movement change, the faster they need to turn
devout raptor
But that CPU is aging, would always default on 5800X3D on AM4
lol i bought it this year too😭
devout raptor
But that CPU is aging, would always default on 5800X3D on AM4
i was thinking of bying one used if I see one cheap
astral haven
on the other hand yea the modern missiles that still are deadly even if they miss are a bit of a problem
cursive summit
Also if you are getting a 5600X, don't, get the 5600 non-X
You'll be saving money
devout raptor
Also if you are getting a 5600X, don't, get the 5600 non-X
i have a 5600x
it cost 120€
cursive summit
Like there are some that will happily do like 70 degree turns.
Python-4 will turn around lol and lock on twice after a miss
young pecan
Yeah.
devout raptor
could have gotten one used for like 50€ but I was skeptical of the used market
young pecan
Python-4 will turn around lol and lock on twice after a miss
Like truly crazy shit like that. Missiles are too stronk.
Too much BVR.
devout raptor
right now im trying to build my dream itx rig and im looking for a used b550 itx board
cursive summit
I am REALLY not sure why the Israelis gave the damn Pythons to China ffs
I think PL-8 is basically a Python-3 clone
I do remember recently there were discussions to more trades or something? Questionable actions
astral haven
sure but pulling a max g climb or fall is preferable to being closer to the missile
young pecan
It'll just do a 70 degree turn and go after you again.
By far the most effective way to chase away missiles is chaff or ECM.
Really not a good other method.
astral haven
sure but the rocket can only do that so many times, it has a ton less energy each time it needs to do a 180
devout raptor
dm what
devout raptor
but why
cursive summit
Don't dm them
devout raptor
💀
cursive summit
You don't want them helping out lol
devout raptor
oh nah i dont even have parts yet
young pecan
sure but the rocket can only do that so many times, it has a ton less energy eac...
Oh this is true, but it's also a case of you can't dodge more than once or twice.
devout raptor
im looking for them on online marketplaces
young pecan
im looking for them on online marketplaces
Got a pcpartpicker list?
astral haven
Oh this is true, but it's also a case of you can't dodge more than once or twice...
sure but a chance to dodge is better than just getting hit even if its 10%
smoky frigate
right now im trying to build my dream itx rig and im looking for a used b550 itx...
I have a barely used Asus TUF Gaming B550 Plus that I paid 140bux for, I'll sell for 100 plus shipping
devout raptor
I have a barely used Asus TUF Gaming B550 Plus that I paid 140bux for, I'll sell...
nah bro
smoky frigate
oh sorry that's an ATX
young pecan
sure but a chance to dodge is better than just getting hit even if its 10%
Higher chance to dodge is chaff or ECM.
That's why it's not in doctrine anymore to attempt an air dodge unless you're out, in which case it's a yolo.
smoky frigate
derp!
cursive summit
Higher chance to dodge is chaff or ECM. <:LUL:354581602908504064>
That's why it...
Not sure what you two are talking about, but AIM-9X is really unlikely to miss, an AIM-120 will never miss however much you want to maneuver
astral haven
Higher chance to dodge is chaff or ECM. <:LUL:354581602908504064>
That's why it...
sure but if you had even more maneuvrerability, that wouldnt hurt
young pecan
Not sure what you two are talking about, but AIM-9X is really unlikely to miss, ...
I mean with mechanical failure maybe.
cursive summit
AIM-9X has flare resistance, pulls like 50Gs
young pecan
Maybe.
cursive summit
AIM-120 I have no clue how many G's it pulls, but it's prolly over 40 and it's active guided
If you have a fox-3 on you, you are dead
young pecan
This is why we BVR and stealth.
Fuck getting anywhere near the radar of that aircraft.
cursive summit
Stealth is pretty important but of questionable value?
young pecan
If it lets you avoid a lock then it's S tier for now.
cursive summit
Stealth science has always been struggling
young pecan
Like not for long, if AI gets scary enough then self guided thinking missiles are fucking terrifying.
cursive summit
Radars are too effective lol
astral haven
Stealth science has always been struggling
thats what they want you to think
cursive summit
Like not for *long*, if AI gets scary enough then self guided thinking missiles ...
Tbf I see the future of combat being laser hardkill APS on jets
astral haven
Like not for *long*, if AI gets scary enough then self guided thinking missiles ...
lol we all just die the week someone tries to train an ai for guiding missiles
that being an ai and not a VI
young pecan
Tbf I see the future of combat being laser hardkill APS on jets
Oh yeah probably.
The difficulty is powering that kind of stuff.
cursive summit
Like not for *long*, if AI gets scary enough then self guided thinking missiles ...
That's a thing already though
astral haven
no the heck it isnt lel
young pecan
Y'know we're trying to apply that to the cardboard drones with rasPis? Very funny.
cursive summit
Their futility is highly entertaining
astral haven
this is folks using systems using machine learning on top of classical intelligence
if someone actually builds an AI model for driving missiles, thats the end for humanity
marsh glade
I presume this to be more for guarding against the shrapnel from the plane next to it blowing up
cursive summit
I presume this to be more for guarding against the shrapnel from the plane next ...
What..?
You know there's a thing against sharpnel that we invented?
We call em sandbags
Also good against bullets
analog sinew
yeah but the mass is what stops shit
i guess this was what they had on hand
still funny
astral haven
🤷 but also would prevent the plane from flying
analog sinew
superpower btw
astral haven
i suspect this stuff would just fall off if you tried to take off
cursive summit
superpower btw
Secondary power* (in ukraine)
marsh glade
Can't roll a sandbag
astral haven
try to scramble with a thousand sandbags on top, and youll sandblast your engine lel
smoky frigate
or commit war crimes
astral haven
i mean lets be clear that if they would just stop fighting that would be better
javelins?
also afaik tanks are often traction limited outside of sticky environments?
cursive summit
Beg your pardon, those would work just fine against panzerfausts
marsh glade
The cope cage memes were pretty fleck
cursive summit
It's funny that ERA could have been mounted on tanks as early as 1944 iirc
The famous russian brick was invented in the end of 1944 iirc, in Aussieland.
Brits didn't want it, americans didn't want it, so they forgot about it lol
young pecan
Honestly it's so funny how overall useless a vast majority of tanks are.
Like what, the only tanks that are good at these days less tanks and more just rolling technology platform with a barrel on it.
astral haven
well its a bigger barrel than most other platforms
cursive summit
Little reminder that Ukraine war is essentially the very first war that we are seeing that encompasses all new military technologies, as far as ground is concerned
Tanks are not useless
They just need to adapt to drone threats
Current tank doctrine is still not much different than the one from 1940s lol
smoky frigate
they need to install really big fans on them to swipe the drones away
young pecan
Honestly? I'm genuinely more scared of an APC with a bunch of shoulder mounted missiles than I am of an Abrams.
Like with a decently sized APC you could carry hundreds of missiles and a few launchers, not only is that more dangerous than any tank but has the fun factor of being able to carry basically any payload.
Absolutely fuck going against 40 dudes with 10 shoulder launchers and a few hundred missiles strapped to an APC.
F tier fight.
No thx.
astral haven
sure but thats more expensive
cursive summit
Honestly? I'm genuinely more scared of an APC with a bunch of shoulder mounted m...
Get AMP'ed then
marsh glade
American police departments beg to differ
old marlin
could have been zimmerit
a tank coating developed against a very specific type of mine
young pecan
You can launch basically anything from the shoulder and there's some fuck off scary things.
old marlin
that only the one faction used that applied zimmerit
cursive summit
Depending on your APC, it's nowhere near as scary as an MBT
astral haven
those hundred missiles are 10 million bucks to rearm
rearming a tank is less than 100k
cursive summit
Now depending on the IFV, I would agree
young pecan
Like you could take one APC and launch a Black Ops 2 Swarm on your enemy. That is so much worse than a single tank that costs as much.
cursive summit
For a foot mobile, I'd dread an IFV
young pecan
IFVs are fucked, yeah.
That's just not a fight that you win.
The scary hybrid of an MBT and APC.
cursive summit
War is essentially a food chain
Soldiers use ATGMs and co to prey on MBTs, MBTs fuck up APC/IFVs, IFVs fuck up infantry
There's more cases to it
But everything has a role
Tank very much is not dead
astral haven
also keep in mind if we start using the tanks as drone platforms, for scouting et al, that pushes the useable range of the tank forward
cursive summit
What's that silly name they gave this thing, Booker?
young pecan
Honestly? I don't really see it.
MBT is dead, weird MBT that's like half tech platform very much alive.
cursive summit
Honestly? I don't really see it.
MBT is dead, weird MBT that's like half tech p...
MBT is very much not dead
young pecan
Because they keep getting random tech strapped to them.
cursive summit
MBT is crucial to any military and it will adapt
old marlin
also keep in mind if we start using the tanks as drone platforms, for scouting e...
I mean you already have to consider that not every tank on the battlefield is not some barely post ww2 abomination that has like the shitties nightvision etc
like the russians do
a modern tank can do a whole lot more
cursive summit
Wrong, it's now M10 Booker
young pecan
Like at this stage I don't actually think MBT is a good descriptor anymore, that's why I say MBT dead. It's morphed into something distinctly beyond the traditional MBT.
astral haven
I mean you already have to consider that not every tank on the battlefield is no...
yea im aware, but the capacity for expansion is still there on our current tanks
old marlin
Like at this stage I don't actually think MBT is a good descriptor anymore, that...
is it
most forces still have MBTs
and depending on the force you have a lot of other ones that you use
cursive summit
MBT will not change much even after the war
old marlin
MBT will not change much even after the war
probably
cursive summit
Key technologies for preventing drone strikes are already available
old marlin
overall not I'd guess
young pecan
And any force that can afford it is trying to throw tech into it. I mean the Abrams alone is largely a tech platform now.
old marlin
but some countries might swap their mbt
old marlin
that is what an MBT is now
astral haven
isnt the whole point of the m in mbt to be modern?
young pecan
No.
young pecan
Main Battle Tank.
old marlin
what
they just have become modern
why would them becoming modern not make them an mbt anymore
astral haven
i thought the acryonym was modern nvm
cursive summit
MBT is an umbrella term anyways
young pecan
The acronym is a Main Battle Tank, the fuck?
old marlin
yea
young pecan
Not modern.
cursive summit
I prefer U.S designations
old marlin
m1 abrams is mbt
astral haven
yea thats my mistake
cursive summit
KF51 is AI
old marlin
while something like a bradley fulfils other roles
cursive summit
Bradley's an IFV by all means, but also an APC
old marlin
yea
cursive summit
Or I guess like americans call it, a cavalry vehicle
cursive summit
Tbf look at a Merkava
young pecan
MBT is an umbrella term anyways
Right which is why it feels weird. We use MBT as a descriptor for 'armored box with big gun' which feels really stupid since that classes everything from WW1 tanks to a modern Abrams.
When what a tank does now is so fundamentally different to what they used to do? Umbrella term is kinda brain dent.
cursive summit
Merkava's an MBT by all means
Carries a crew of 6 extra soldiers though in the back
old marlin
considering the US has a shitton of dedicated APCs
astral haven
Right which is why it feels weird. We use MBT as a descriptor for 'armored box w...
sure but it an armored box with a big gun, just with extra tech inside the box?
cursive summit
Right which is why it feels weird. We use MBT as a descriptor for 'armored box w...
MBT has only become a term since the 1950s..?
old marlin
if "zerg rushing" and enemy with infantry is something you want
having troops in your MBT could be effective
young pecan
MBT has only become a term since the 1950s..?
1945 specifically.
cursive summit
First "MBT" was Centurion, and that's a 1945 tank, that was only recognised as an "MBT" later
cursive summit
1945 specifically.
That's when Centurion came out, MBT is a later term
old marlin
MBT has only become a term since the 1950s..?
yea since in ww2 tanks were basically so "in development" that something like an MBT could not be named properly
young pecan
No, I said we use it to describe anything from WW1/2 to now.
old marlin
yea
young pecan
Really absurd big umbrella terms feel... off.
old marlin
but at the point they didn't know what would really be the main one
cursive summit
No, I said *we* use it to describe anything from WW1/2 to now.
Makes no sense?
That term shouldn't be applied to anything before 1950
young pecan
Well no. It absolutely makes sense.
old marlin
that is when the idea really took off
young pecan
What?
cursive summit
Before, not past
old marlin
before that you basically just split them into weight classes
oh
well
eh
kinda iffy
young pecan
That's like saying any projectile weapon firing a shaft before 9000 BCE isn't a bow. What?
old marlin
since they used them differently
yea but saying something is an mbt
when there is no clear mbt
cursive summit
Like, U.S STILL uses a far more efficient designation system than your typical "MBT"
old marlin
is kinda difficult
cursive summit
What's an Abrams?
Tank, tracked, 120mm, M1 Abrams
Far better designation
Something like a Stryker MGS is I think
Tank, wheeled, 105mm, Stryker
young pecan
when there is no clear mbt
WW2 Germany absolutely had the Panzer IV as their MBT. Like FOR SURE.
old marlin
let's see you classifying ww2 era german tanks like that
cursive summit
let's see you classifying ww2 era german tanks like that
Well, they didn't
German classifications were all over the place
old marlin
WW2 Germany absolutely had the Panzer IV as their MBT. Like FOR SURE.
yet the wikipedia article names the panther for that
young pecan
yet the wikipedia article names the panther for that
That's a bit mixed.
cursive summit
Panther was your average medium tank
Which afaik germans didn't even categorize, I never heard it categorized at least
young pecan
Like yes the Panther got use but it was overall less used than the Panzer IV, which was basically their entire workforce for tanks.
old marlin
german ww2 tanks were stupid experimental
they built them with a specific purpose
so categorizing them would not really make sense
young pecan
German WW2 was stupid experimental*
FTFY
old marlin
at least not with how specific they get
old marlin
German WW2 was stupid experimental*
FTFY
fair
but categorizing something as "this is good against T-34s" would be kinda stupid
cursive summit
That's why I still prefer U.S military designations
old marlin
you could argue the panzer 3 was the mt even
crisp granite
@ashen spindle
deckard copium pls
old marlin
That's why I still prefer U.S military designations
too bad it can be quite confusing
ashen spindle
still same as last week, wait for meta connect end of the month
old marlin
as it doesn't necessarily say what role it fulfils
when that is really the important part
when I slap a small gun turret on top of an APC you could assume from the designation that it might be a light tank
when it really is not
cursive summit
as it doesn't necessarily say what role it fulfils
It does
COMBAT, FULL-TRACKED, 105-MM GUN, M1
crisp granite
https://www.metaconnect.com/en/home
...aight
cursive summit
Like, U.S classifies vehicles very to the point
Vehicle type, what it's for, what traverse method it has, and the armament
So yeah Abrams is officially called Tank, Combat, Full-Tracked, 120-mm Gun, M1A1
And this system was used since WW2 I think
analog sinew
call everything mark 1 and be done
cursive summit
U.S has too much money lol
old marlin
US spends too much money on military
cursive summit
Abrams is too heavy, but hey they are getting around to fix that
old marlin
they just aren't that good with money
cursive summit
M1E3 will be very pog
old marlin
Abrams is too heavy, but hey they are getting around to fix that
look at leopard 2 a8 weight 
cursive summit
Not a problem for Germans
Germans don't typically send their vehicles overseas unless it's a peacekeeping operation
cursive summit
Americans have.. uhm.. democracy-spreading needs, for why they need to have all logistics planned out in case they ship em somewhere
old marlin
but looking at it
odds of it are low
to get shipped a lot after it got deployed
meanwhile the pzh2000 is getting BEAT in the ukraine
cursive summit
Getting beat?