No no I don't mean a strawman here.
#🔌│tech
young pecan
I mean 2 features is not a big enough gap is functionality to just go 'eh the UX is what it is'.
It can and should be better.
knotty summit
Just one thing to make sure we are on the same page. You guys do understand that FOSS being FOSS is what makes it insecure?
young pecan
Depends. FOSS with huge community support and active security pros? Secure.
FOSS with none of that? Eh.
astral haven
I mean 2 features is not a big enough gap is functionality to just go 'eh the UX...
That is exactly the strawman
knotty summit
Depends. FOSS with huge community support and active security pros? Secure.
There is just enough security pros, I doubt there is as much blue/red hats in the world for every FOSS to make all secure
Again, there will ALWAYS be something new
So that big security team can be thrown to ashes if there comes someone exploiting a dependency
young pecan
That is exactly the strawman
How is that a strawman? A strawman is comparing something to something absurdly bigger to try and invalidate the initial question without proof or reason.
Me saying 'there are better examples of UX and 2 features doesn't mean it can't and shouldn't be better' is not a strawman argument. 
astral haven
If you have certain needs, pfsense is the best
And for many combinations of needs, pfsense is the only option with a gui at all
knotty summit
One of the reasons why Tutanota is dependableless is just because they try to be as secure as possibke
young pecan
There is just enough security pros, I doubt there is as much blue/red hats in th...
Nah no fucking chance there's enough security pros. Not for all of major FOSS.
Everything in awesome sysadmin and awesome selfhosted? Sure.
More than that.
But all of those stupid little niche tools you need? No goddamn way.
astral haven
How is that a strawman? A strawman is comparing something to something absurdly ...
That's a misunderstanding of what a strawman is
A strawman is just addressing an argument that is not the same argument as was presented by the proposer
knotty summit
But all of those stupid little niche tools you need? No goddamn way.
Exactly
young pecan
That's a misunderstanding of what a strawman is
A strawman is just addressing an...
Wait no you're right, I have my shit mixed up.
astral haven
You were thinking of goalposting I think?
young pecan
Think so, yeah.
astral haven
To be clear I'm confident it wasn't intentionalon your part, but it still wasn't what I am arguing for
young pecan
To be clear though. While pfSense is alone in it's sheer utility, it is not alone in having a GUI even for routing solutions, so when I say 'there are other examples of better UX' I am specifically saying 'if other routing solutions that're missing those 2 features can have a feature complete GUI and room for more, why can pfSense not also have a feature complete GUI?'
There is no reason for this.
astral haven
And I'm not arguing that it can't, just that those other solutions are missing the features
young pecan
Which we agree.
astral haven
And it's a heck of a lot more than 2 btw
young pecan
Why more routers don't have HA is mind blowing.
Ok sure it's complex and needs networking. It's a fucking router, it IS the networking.
Actually no. Why more stuff in general doesn't have HA.
That's a feature that legit needs to be everywhere.
astral haven
Yup
And even if you don't support an inspection feature, you at least need port mirroring which is shockingly absent from so many things...
astral haven
Actually imo that's not necessary per se
young pecan
It's not but it's nice!
reef patrol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIhgMt_qYpw
I feel so old for knowing how to navigate this OS by heart 😄
astral haven
If they make you just pay more for the faster port, that's a form of aggregation imo rofl
young pecan
astral haven
Sure it's mean but it still has the same effect
young pecan
Bruh.
More stuff needs 10gig.
2.5 should be the bare basics now.
Actually if we're being completely honest ISP provided routers should probably be coming with 1 or 2 more ports. Some of them are shockingly little.
3 ports is just... not enough.
That's because it's a specific tool designed to work with more complex networks.
A proper AIO solution should have at least 6.
HFC.
Hybrid Fiber Coaxial.
Y'know you can probably get gigabit on that.
astral haven
My work uses 6 connections to 2 different isps
young pecan
That failover probably looks super cool.
astral haven
Y'know you can probably get gigabit on that.
You can get gigabit duplex on a single coaxial copper
astral haven
That failover probably looks super cool.
It's pretty screwed up lel
young pecan
You can get gigabit duplex on a single coaxial copper
I would actually commit a war crime for duplex gigabit.
Like for real.
WW2 would look like a meme.
Canada move over.
young pecan
It's pretty screwed up lel
I need to know now.
astral haven
Sorry no can do
But let's just say that we have 2 routers and a switch whose only jobs is to route traffic to the actual routers and that's only outside of nat
Inside of nat it's a digital rats nest
astral haven
Extremely
The network design predates my boss, and my boss has been working here for 15 years
young pecan
Does it actually get full bond speed?
astral haven
No individual client can but we do occasionally max out bandwidth on both simultaneously
astral haven
It's a l2 switch, and neither of our connections are gigabit
astral haven
Also keep in mind we are a nonprofit
So we can't exactly replace anything until it actually just stops working
And it works insanely well despite the jank
astral haven
That's not true lel
We are just a few vlans from integrating something like 12 separate routers, firewalls, and switches into 1 router
For example
When tracerouting from one network to another, both icmp and udp traceroute fail from all brands of access point that we have requested demos from
Yet a windows laptop plugged into the same port has no problem
And all traceroutes from the destination to the aps work just fine
I said it works shockingly well, not that it actually works well lel
It definetly appears to work well
But it's just problems under the hood
young pecan
We are just a few vlans from integrating something like 12 separate routers, fir...
Ok yeah nah right.
That's like actual jank.
young pecan
If the jank works then it's not jank.
This is only true if it's a 'lil jank, if it's a bit silly, some mild tomfoolery.
young pecan
We are just a few vlans from integrating something like 12 separate routers, fir...
That is not ok.
astral haven
Welcome to [redacted]
young pecan
And me with my 2 VLANs is annoying.
Can't imagine being at 12.
Fuck all of that.
young pecan
Sorry no I read that wrong.
astral haven
We have 12 hardware boxes controlling 100+ vlans
astral haven
:hidethepain:
young pecan
And like... why? I get using VLANs to isolate important shit from other shit without doing the responsible thing and airgapping it all.
But like...
A hundred...? How?
astral haven
To be fair we have over 50 sites
young pecan
Oooookay.
Okay that makes way more sense.
I suppose my next question is how tf is that being orchestrated with 12 boxes?
astral haven
On the other hand I can name a vlan that only exists on a single cablr
young pecan
What?
Is this like a funny /30 high security line thing to some kind of critical infrastructure?
astral haven
Not really, it's just a link between 2 networks, both of which have internet access
astral haven
But it's sharing that link with a ton of other networks, which is why it needs vlans
Like every individual peice makes sense
It's just a house of cards built using many different sized cards
astral haven
It's a big cursed lel
young pecan
So that little /30 cable, I assume that's going between buildings?
astral haven
Nah, it doesn't even leave it's original rack
astral haven
No, it's big cursed
astral haven
Nah
Look we are working to do the clean up, but it's expensive
young pecan
Thoughts on the hardware you'll be using for the upgrade?
astral haven
We have actually no choice in the matter
young pecan
Like that 6 way failover bond requires some weird shit.
astral haven
We have to hope that the requirements we put in the request for quote are sufficient
Because whoever submits the cheapest bid that meets the requirements, we are required to go with...
astral haven
Cheapest???
young pecan
They have some pretty garbage hardware.
astral haven
You underestimate how garbage everyone else's hardware is
young pecan
I mean that's true. Netgear exists.
astral haven
Tbh considering our current setup, cisco would be great
young pecan
Tbh considering our current setup, cisco would be great
That is such a cursed red flag, holy fuck.
Nah Cisco is pain. Networking with CLI is maybe the worst thing and that's the only valid way to use Cisco shit.
astral haven
BTW cisco doesn't just have cli
young pecan
Well yeah the shard of hardware they put effort into.
And anything slapped with the Catalyst name.
astral haven
Yea we aren't gonna end up with a catalyst router lel
astral haven
Times 50 sites?
young pecan
smoky frigate
god this server needs pepega emote
astral haven
I wasn't told the exact amount we have saved up for this project, but I'm pretty sure that's more than the entire annual budget of the org
young pecan
I mean what kind of hardware do you suspect you'll get?
Gotta be racked at least.
And hopefully PoE because people that go without PoE scare me.
Those are frightening people.
astral haven
Ah this is just for the routers
Switches and aps are a different story
And the routers won't have poe almost certainly
young pecan
And who was asking for that ever? Like who is buying a UDM Pro SE of all routers and not having a switch?
I get it on a normal UDM, but not a Pro SE.
astral haven
The router is providing the power
young pecan
I use a US-16 PoE in my rack and it runs a Switch Flex upstairs.
Cost me like an extra $100 for the 16 port.
astral haven
Router provides direct connection to all the devices in the office, and we have a poe powered ap+switch and a poe powered switch in other rooms of the house
young pecan
Yeah that makes sense.
astral haven
And my pihole is plugged directly into the router via poe as well
young pecan
You run a Pihole on an actual Pi?
First person I've seen do that in a hot minute lmao.
astral haven
Yep
young pecan
The shortage is wack.
astral haven
The pi is like 4 years old lel
young pecan
That explains it, yeah.
Personally I switched to Technitium for DNS reasons.
Much like it over Pihole.
I assume you're also running Unbound on your Pi?
young pecan
So... never.
astral haven
Or problems start to hapoen
astral haven
Likely
young pecan
Btw, do you have any tips for 10gig? I've got a US-16-XG for the switch, gonna do DAC cables for it over fiber, thinking ConnectX 3s for the cards.
astral haven
Use 40g with qsfp to sfp+ adapters
It's usually half the price
young pecan
Already got it.
astral haven
Sfp?
young pecan
Found an ES-16-XG on marketplace for $450 a while ago, costs a grand atm and the guy didn't update the firmware so he thought it was broken.
And yeah, 12 SFP ports.
astral haven
How much does a 10g sfp pcie card cost for you?
young pecan
Was going to ebay it, probably around 40 at the lowest.
young pecan
What even?
Damn, only 2000 nits? Can't compete against my sheet of A4 paper at midday. 
astral haven
Just check 40g stuffs, the adapters are like $12
So if the 40g pcie is more than $12 or whatever cheaper, go for it
young pecan
Can't even find any 40gig NICs.
astral haven
Search for qsfp pcie
astral haven
Most non Intel infiniband adapters can be flashed to ethernet
young pecan
Wait really?
astral haven
And many more of the ones available online are hybrids
Melanox calls it vpi
If it says vpi it supports both
young pecan
Hmmmmmm...
Ok right so going qsfp infiniband opens up a LOT of future expansion.
And link aggregation.
'Cause I'm pretty sure I could do qsfp -> 40Gbe to 4x 10Gbe breakout with link aggregation, no?
That's a valid config.
astral haven
Also, by the way, for my point-to-point setup between my server and my PC, I managed to find a hundred gig for cheaper than ten gig.
Simply because of intels basically free 100g adapters
astral haven
'Cause I'm pretty sure I could do qsfp -> 40Gbe to 4x 10Gbe breakout with link a...
Yep but that just working is a bit jank
young pecan
How much even is a 100gig NIC?
astral haven
I paid 200 for 2 dual port nics
young pecan
100Gig?!
astral haven
Yep
young pecan
What in the fuck.
astral haven
And the singlemode fiber cable was a total of $30 including both transceivers and brand new fiber
astral haven
Was on ebay
Both were shipped from Israel I think?
young pecan
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/255919082484? Uhhhhhh, oooookay.
That's apparently real.
young pecan
Yes because I want to go to a link shortener for this. Honestly I need to set that up for the automation.
Or just manually cropping but that sucks.
hasty thunder
astral haven
That's the Intel one that I said couldn't be flashed
It's real but there's zero windows functionality whatsoever
young pecan
No but like even that it's so cheap.
young pecan
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/266393348801 This one is real and useful.
astral haven
Unable to get anything out of it
young pecan
Shipped from Israel, small world.
astral haven
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/266393348801 This one is real and useful.
And it would require flashing
astral haven
I didn't, and I'm happy to hear that!
Does it apply to all browsers that use the built in webkit?
What
https://a.co/d/hSYNteF
This is what I get by default
On android
woven laurel
protections? what do u mean with that
usually we dont post anything after the "?" symbol because of media trackers
with that you get those targeted adds in your browse feed
zenith silo
How did you get banned on Amazon lol
woven laurel
I mean anything is better then nothing so sure
or for the 2 times a day you do it manually and its perfect
ah the engineer
steep creek
Yah I prefer as much automation as possible
woven laurel
steep creek
lol spending 12 hours automating a tasks that takes 5 minutes
astral haven
Yes but this is literally bits that could probably be automated with 1 line of code and a 10 or fewer character regex
steep creek
I exaggerated but was mostly joking haha
Carmonben I have a question for you if you don’t mind
young pecan
Y'know... this fucker hits hard for me.
I've spent the last 6 months learning kubernetes so I can avoid spending an hour a day managing servers.
I... do not have the best reason for doing this.
young pecan
Kube good.
ashen spindle
young pecan
I refuse to be convinced all of my time was worth nothing.
young pecan
im never touching that again
What about it kicked you that badly?
astral haven
Carmonben I have a question for you if you don’t mind
@me, im touching grass
woven laurel
young pecan
...?
I have not run into any of this difficulty.
Idk, Helm, IaC, and Talos just make all of this pretty brain dented.
OpenLens for IDE, IaC for mass deploying, Talos and Clonedeploy for platform.
Other than that it's just a shitload of yaml.
young pecan
Am I just missing things? Like Kube has a lot of ways to do everything, but there's just some simple standout ways.
OpenLens, OpenTF, Talos, Clonedeploy.
Handles like 99% of everything and for the remaining 1% it's kubectl and talosctl.
young pecan
Wait where?
I haven't even attempted to touch the Kube community.
Fuck that.
If people can't agree that Portainer is F tier then Kube must be a minefield.
steep creek
@me, im touching grass
Sweet, don’t worry about it just wanted to ask how you feel about dex compared to something like chrome os?
astral haven
Sweet, don’t worry about it just wanted to ask how you feel about dex compared t...
I feel that dex could be better, however I use it the most compared to chromeos or heck Linux des in general
young pecan
Literally just write the basic portainer functionality into Compose UI. It actually just takes like 2 seconds.
And you don't get any of their turbo brain damaged network terminology.
steep creek
I feel that dex could be better, however I use it the most compared to chromeos ...
Yeap got it, thank you
young pecan
You would think that for software that does containers someone would have a basic grasp of how a network is built. Nope.
Nope gotta use the most convoluted possible way to 'easy' build a network.
Proper fix takes like half an hour to write. Nope, it's been like that for years.
Can't just do 192.168.1.0-192.168.10.255, that would let you extrapolate literally everything in the network but that's actually easy. Nope.
ashen spindle
astral haven
Yeap got it, thank you
I also find it more pleasant to use than macOS, but that is only possible for a small number of usecases
Whymst the heck doesn't macOS have window snapping
And why can't it turn off mouse acceleration
steep creek
Yeah ui looks quite nice, if I do end up getting a Samsung phone I’d use dex for light browsing, email and such
Hah window snapping is a big deal for me, you can supposedly get the feature using rectangle app but, why isn’t it included in macOS to begin with
wheat plume
And why can't it turn off mouse acceleration
the most used terminal commmand on MacOS is to disable it LOL
astral haven
There's no permanent command tho as far as I could tell
astral haven
You have to run it every time you power on the machine
wheat plume
oh...
steep creek
That’s just annoying lol
astral haven
If there is one that does it permanently, please tell me
I literally stopped using mice plugged into the Mac, and instead I remote in which uses windows' mouse settings
It's laggy but at least it's precise
wheat plume
you're moving the mouse wrong
steep creek
Actually a dealbreaker for me lol
hasty thunder
MacOS for gaming? What da heck is this?
astral haven
Gaming?
ashen spindle
mouse accell is not just gaming
young pecan
Mouse accel S tier, ngl. Just shitty curves ruin everything.
steep creek
I’ve become used to having it off, it would take some time adjusting to it again
young pecan
This is what everyone thinks about when they hear mouse accel. Ah yes, good. 
steep creek
I don’t game much
young pecan
Jumpy turbo boost mouse accel with sharp dips. What a wonderful feel.
astral haven
Mouse accel S tier, ngl. Just shitty curves ruin everything.
That's only true if you need infinite movement
As long as you can absolutely move your mouse to any location on your screen, linear is better
young pecan
Honestly? I'm more accurate on a custom curve.
Linear is fine and all but doesn't work for flicks.
astral haven
If you can find an osu player in the top 10 of mouse players who plays with acceleration, I will give you $100
young pecan
Bad argument.
astral haven
If it was better, it would be used
young pecan
A vast majority of people in general have no idea mouseaccel even exists and it's not a one size fits all thing.
Gotta spend weeks customizing a curve specifically for you.
Tune it.
astral haven
I did that, it's better than stock
But after a month of use I still performed worse than linear
young pecan
This took me like 2 months to fine tune but my accuracy is better than linear with it.
Used to play linear extensively.
astral haven
But again are you in a finite or infinite mouse environment?
gusty kiln
young pecan
Like virtually?
gusty kiln
THICC pad
astral haven
I'll grant in an fps fame where you might have to do a 180 degree turn, acceleration can help
young pecan
Ok so virtually.
gusty kiln
quake players use accel
young pecan
I play just about everything, so both infinite and finite.
astral haven
Alright
And in the finite environments, does acceleration have any advantage besides your accustomization?
young pecan
Mhmm. I can react to things faster since my fingers have more accuracy in mouse movement than my arm does in movement and I play claw.
gusty kiln
there's also raw accel
young pecan
So for microadjustments I can accomplish the same thing as full movement.
gusty kiln
but apparently hard to set up
gusty kiln
oof
astral haven
Mhmm. I can react to things faster since my fingers have more accuracy in mouse ...
If that is true, why don't the top level use it
young pecan
Simply put it takes hundreds of hours to do, rawaccel has not been around for long enough, and mouseaccel got a bad reputation from Windows so nobody wants to use it.
gusty kiln
some valorant players use raw accel
final flame
I used to play overwatch and other games with windows default accel
astral haven
Simply put it takes hundreds of hours to do, rawaccel has not been around for lo...
Yes but the top level have extreme incentives to do it
young pecan
They'd need to drop their skill for hundreds of hours and rebuild. Pros don't have that freedom.
hasty thunder
everyone starts with accel, because he/she doesn't know better at the beginning
gusty kiln
They'd need to drop their skill for hundreds of hours and rebuild. Pros don't ha...
yeah this was the same argument for using a wooting 60HE
astral haven
They'd need to drop their skill for hundreds of hours and rebuild. Pros don't ha...
Literally do in osu
Everyone eventually switches to tablet, and it takes longer than that to swap over
young pecan
I don't play OSU so I couldn't tell you, but an established pro that needs to perform for esports probably can't take the time.
warm night
idk it took me a day to reach my mouse skill with tablet and it was my first time even seeing one
young pecan
yeah this was the same argument for using a wooting 60HE
Hadn't heard that.
astral haven
I don't play OSU so I couldn't tell you, but an established pro that needs to pe...
OK then name a finite game that isn't osu?
warm night
that being said i hadn't been playing for too long beforehand so it's likely a different story for someone with over a few hundred hours
astral haven
idk it took me a day to reach my mouse skill with tablet and it was my first tim...
I'm talking for the pros who have #1s using mice
Takes 10s of ks of hours to get to that level
Ryuk I think it was took 200 hours to switch
young pecan
OK then name a finite game that isn't osu?
Synthetik 1 and 2
Any RTS since they screen lock
Terraria
Bitburner
etc.
Basically any game that isn't 3D camera.
warm night
that feels like a long ass time to learn tablet
its not that hard to learn surely
i guess if you have a really long time on mouse itll take you longer to adjust
young pecan
Like finite screen in that there isn't an infinite track? A whole fuckload of games.
For esports Hearthstone and League come to mind.
astral haven
OK then let's take starcraft
Are there any high level pros that use accel?
young pecan
I don't know, I don't follow SC professional use.
astral haven
Hearthstone doesn't rely on apm
astral haven
Precision is
young pecan
Mmm, precision at lower time, yes.
young pecan
Like take league for example.
That game isn't going to require accel but for the right player? It's an advantage.
Depends on how you play.
astral haven
Sure now how precise do you need to be in league, and over what area?
And the answer is relatively precise, but a huge area
astral haven
Granted it's not infinite so I will have to amend my previous statement
But it is quite a bit larger than let's say 10k pixels
young pecan
I'm not talking 'what precision can you get while zooming across the screen', I'm talking 'how fast can your fingers contract and send you across the screen with higher force and thus lower time to accomplish the same mouse distance'.
It's a competitive advantage if you train on it, just like anything else.
astral haven
Sure but that's not what matters
young pecan
When the accuracy is the same? It's free benefit.
astral haven
Sure but the accuracy is not the same
young pecan
Why not? You have to learn both.
A custom accel curve can be as accurate if not moreso, it's highly dependent on your playstyle and grip.
astral haven
And that is the claim that requires proof
young pecan
A proof for this requires a study I'm not going to bother doing, so I'll leave it up to basic reasoning skills since that's all we have.
astral haven
OK so let's logic this
Take all the best performances
See what percent use what, and extrapolate from there
young pecan
Bad logic.
astral haven
It's bayesian logic
If there were any examples of it being used at the most competitive environment, we could use the growth of that use over time to extrapolate if it will take over
But the complete lack of examples is highly suggestive
young pecan
Logically speaking if you have a smaller screen the required distance for the mouse to move is smaller, which requires a smaller mousepad. Say 25 inches since that's not uncommon in esports.
I would imagine you'd take the average arm length and response time of your average esports player and see how fast they can get the mouse across the pad while maintaining accuracy.
You'd then need to work out the percentage using hand grips like pad or claw to see what they're doing for microadjustments since that's how you actually get very tight accuracy.
astral haven
Also consider what systems work in reality for control
The only control loop that works is pid
And what bounds the performance of a pid loop the most frequently in reality?
young pecan
This is flawed logic.
young pecan
If there were any examples of it being used at the most competitive environment,...
Like this isn't suggestive of anything.
astral haven
So you claim...
The problem is evidenciary since neither of us are physiologists
young pecan
Software to do this hasn't existed for long enough for a pro to properly train with it and actually get into esports, not only that but it's a third party software which is banned in most esports.
So no saying that esports players aren't using something banned in esports isn't a good indication of the accuracy it could give you.
astral haven
Which is evidence that you need to support
Claims to that effect have been around for 20 years
young pecan
Because we haven't had software that can do actually good proper curves until recently.
rawaccel is the first.
astral haven
That's super duper not true
People were messing around with it in the original quake days
young pecan
I mean what was before that? I don't recall anything that was good.
I recall a lot of bad software being used fairly well after some weird BS.
But nothing that really brings what acceleration can do like raw.
astral haven
OK so now you are claiming that acceleration being better is such a precisely small window that Noone figured it out before rawaccel?
young pecan
No I'm saying that rawaccel can do things no acceleration program could do before it.
astral haven
Sure but did you need rawaccel for it to be better?
astral haven
Alright so can we agree that macOS forcing their dogshit acceleration is stupid?
young pecan
Like look at this. I'm using natural gain for my X axis and linear for my Y axis. This works for me and is undoable for any previous software, I would not be anywhere near as accurate if natural gain was on Y, for example.
young pecan
Alright so can we agree that macOS forcing their dogshit acceleration is stupid?
If it's bad awful without good tools to modify? Yes.
And even then it better be opt out by default.
astral haven
Much worse, it's not possible to opt out without writing a shell script or installing a 3rd party program
young pecan
Endless kek.
But no, actual good accel is underrated.
It's just difficult to get into.
astral haven
Also keep in mind however in the limit, if you are capable of ingraining absolute positioning into your instincts at a high enough level, acceleration cannot help
young pecan
Ah but it can still.
astral haven
Humans are very good at absolutely positioning limbs automatically, and acceleration relative to the limbs is not part of that
young pecan
Acceleration has let me use finger microadjustments with my mouse to do flicks instead of needing to move my entire arm. It's simply faster.
astral haven
That's a rationalization
young pecan
The question is does the speed matter though. For me? I'm well above average in shooters and it saved me 30ms.
I did test this.
astral haven
The reaction times that are required in osu sometimes surpass the limits of the human visual system.
young pecan
My performance and accuracy in Synthetik showed a noticable uptick as well.
Close to 20%.
astral haven
And how fast do you need to get to a position in synthetik
young pecan
Extremely.
astral haven
Numbers
young pecan
I play on Hyper Adrenaline which makes everything fragile and guns have higher damage. Peeking corners you get killed if you're slow. I couldn't tell you exact numbers because I don't know what they'd be, but extremely quickly I had an uptick of near 20% because of accel and micromovements.
Like it's higher now, I trained for longer.
But within about a week of starting to use Accel I was just outright better across the board.
Regardless of game.
The first 3/4 days was brutal though.
young pecan
Yeah I don't record gameplay and I don't have those numbers. For me I can tell you for sure accel has lead me into being more accurate. I don't know by exactly how many ms, however. What I can do is go over perf for almost every game I play and there's an uptick in perf around the same time across the board.
So unless every single game has an outlier at the same time idk what that'd be.
Possibly placebo, I won't tell you otherwise.
I don't have the numbers to do such a study.
astral haven
Again I don't think you grasp how fast osu is compared to most other games
young pecan
Good friend of mine is an OSU nut, I am very aware how fast OSU is.
astral haven
It's about half the speed of clone hero, but clone hero is 1 dimensional with 4 possibilities
Osu is 2 dimensional with something on the order of 10k possible positions
young pecan
This is true.
astral haven
Shooters are 3 dimensional with millions of possibilities and thus tend to be half again the speed of osu
astral haven
Nah you'd be surprised now nonlinear speed is
Clone hero tends to be 1 average human eye to hand nerve loop
And osu tends to be 2
With shooters starting at 4 generally excluding snipers holding an angle
astral haven
Also talking about the highest levels of play relative to average human reaction times
young pecan
What it's doing is accelerating my mouse movements in a linear way. Not like almost every single other curve in the world where it's nonlinear. This alone gives you such a massive benefit since the acceleration feels the 'same' at all speeds. Very easy to commit to memory.
astral haven
So pros likely practice to the point of increasing those numbers
Eg osu being 300ms might allow for 3 cycles for a cracked pro
young pecan
That's probably the biggest reason why everyone thinks accel is bad. It's because to my knowledge the only game to ever do it in a way people liked was Quake.
astral haven
What it's doing is accelerating my mouse movements in a linear way. Not like alm...
Yes but you also need to commit it to your body
If you close your eyes, you can touch your finger to your nose every single time unless you are drunk
young pecan
Then most people have exposure to Windows pointer precision which is F tier, and games like CS or brands like Logitech have awful curves.
young pecan
Yes but you also need to commit it to your body
If you close your eyes, you can ...
Yes but the curve is still linear progression.
That's the difference.
It's easy to commit to muscle memory.
I mean like this is source engine mouse accel. Nonlinear BS where it has a very sudden jump.
astral haven
Alright
Now get that peer reviewed and published and you can start to convince people
young pecan
The study alone would require hundreds of people and thousands of man hours.
astral haven
That sounds unlikely?
young pecan
Heavy, heavy pass.
astral haven
If it's actually generally trainable, it should only need about a dozen people
The same studies for eye movement and 3d absolute positioning in humans only had sample sizes around 2 dozen
young pecan
Is it? Took me a solid week to really get my grasp on a custom curve designed for me.
We take a scientifically significant study which is what you should do, that wants between 500 and a thousand people. Took me a few dozen hours of gaming to get my head around it.
Screw that.
astral haven
You were doing it in game
young pecan
Casual comparative research wants at least 30 and preferably more than 50 people. If you think I'm chasing people down for a week doing that you're nuts lmao.
Even in Aimlab I wouldn't do it.
astral haven
A scientific study would perform it with just wrist movement directly controlling a line on a screen
young pecan
Still that's really damn hard to do to keep the study good.
young pecan
Uhhhh. No.
What?
Different grips, mousepads, etc.
All of that define how someone actually plays.
And a stock curve is not going to work for everyone.
astral haven
Lol no
No mice no pads no game
Line up a line on a screen with another line given a single degree of input
young pecan
Mmmm. If I want to quantify what mouse acceleration does for someone I'd still need to be tinkering with custom curves to get good data.
It right up will not work if you give everyone the same curve.
astral haven
Nah
You just need to prove that a human can physically learn a curve at all
And what rate of learning does each receive
young pecan
Oh that's easy, no thought you were asking something way different.
No for a simple 'can it be learned and how fast' that's a braindead easy question.
The answer is yes and it depends.
astral haven
Sure but prove it
young pecan
Annoyingly enough.
astral haven
So far all nonlinearities with human learning have been extremely problematic
young pecan
Ever driven a car before? There's your answer.
Not all of them are linear with the steering wheel.
astral haven
Humans are fucking atrocious at driving
young pecan
What with some people doing weird fucky power steering.
astral haven
How many people die each year directly attributable to that?
astral haven
Not quite
young pecan
The answer is yes, people learn to drive, and how fast is what like a few hundred hours? Something like that?
astral haven
The question was can you learn it faster than a linear ond
And can you achieve a higher level of performance?
young pecan
Oh obviously not. Linear will pick up faster because the body is linear.
And higher perf? There's no answer in a lack of study.
astral haven
Sure but you can approximate the bayesian probability
young pecan
With how new the software is and how little there is in documentation or tutorials? Not quite so easily.
I'm sure it's doable, but probably not with available data. You'd need to go get it yourself.
astral haven
Again aeon
The software exists, and you already admitted that the software wasn't required, just made it better
young pecan
That is not what I said.
I said people have used accel in the past to almost universal hatred (other than Quake Live which many, many pros loved) and it's only reached a state where you can customize it to yourself in the last like 3 years.
5 if we include the one program before Rawaccel, but that didn't let you set natural or linear like Raw does.
Like Quake Live is probably good numbers, ngl.
I do wonder if they were tracking how many people used accel.
astral haven
But again that's not an absolute game...
There are many many other factors rather than just raw 2 dimensional positioning
young pecan
'Course.
I point it out because that's really the only example of much loved accel I can think of.
Honestly I can't even think of any finite games with out of the box accel.
astral haven
The next thing to consider is how good are humans at absolutely positioning their fingers and their arms? Naturally?
And what were we evolved to quickly learn?
young pecan
No idea on that first part, and on that second we evolved for a whole shitload of things.
astral haven
That's not what a modern evolutionary biologist would say
astral haven
No, I mean the actual evolved capabilities
astral haven
It's not as though evolution is good at niches.
Evolution is only good at niches
young pecan
Sorry no I meant optimizing.
astral haven
Yes
young pecan
Evolution tends to do either niches or a lot of small stuff that results in a niche.
astral haven
Never a lot of small stuff unless it optimizes over a niche
young pecan
Oh there's a few good examples.
Like it doesn't tend to go into wildly different stuff.
astral haven
The 2 niches that humans definetly evolved over is memetic transmission via language
And toolmaking
That's it
young pecan
You missed one.
We evolved to be ridiculous endurance hunters.
There's fuck all in nature that can out endure a human.
astral haven
By memetic transmission and toolmaking
astral haven
Sure but that's not a strictly human trait
young pecan
No but we really went into it.
astral haven
All of the homo family were capable of that
young pecan
Yep.
astral haven
And other members of the genus were estimated to be better at that
young pecan
Outside of homo there really aren't that many animals that evolved into sheer endurance.
Most stuff tended to be ambush hunters.
astral haven
Sure
But homo erectus and habilis were estimated to be better endurance hunters than sapiens
young pecan
Well yes.
We don't have to be as good because we went further into communication and tool making.
astral haven
Yet we out competed them to eradication
young pecan
Who needs a really, really good juggernaut when you have 700 little juggernauts.
astral haven
Exactly
young pecan
Thanks hunting in tribes.
Honestly just the ability to speak was such a ridiculously good evolution.
You could in all likelihood remove opposable thumbs and still have a really solid species if they can talk to eachother and express ideas.
Life finds a way, opposable thumbs be damned.
astral haven
Nah
Corvids and sea mammals communicate well but no opposable thumbs
young pecan
Weeeeeeeeeeeell that's not the whole truth.
Corvidae are an incredible species, they get held back by right up not having a good mechanism for doing stuff to the world. Like they don't have arms in general, only beaks. And those fuckers use tools regardless.
As for ocean stuff? The big things like Dolphins are way too psychotic to form groups and Octopuses just don't form groups which is what's really stopping them.
But generally speaking Corvidae are incredible. Like #2 smart species on this planet that actually do groups.
If Octopuses did groups they'd be #2.
astral haven
Yep, and since they don't have arms, they don't have opposable thumbs
young pecan
Pff, there are animals with arms that don't have opposable thumbs. They go hand in hand but aren't forced to grow together.
astral haven
Octopi who invested into communication tech before we did would have eradicated us first probably lel
young pecan
Maybe.
astral haven
And their manipulators are definetly superior to ours
young pecan
Like those fuckers are smart but they would have needed to leave the water.
astral haven
Why?
young pecan
I mean how are they eradicating a land species while underwater before we eradicate them?
astral haven
Because they would have been able to develop faster and develop the technology to move on land before we could even figure out throwing spears?
astral haven
250k years ago
young pecan
Like that's when they dev tech or when they start talking?
astral haven
Start cooperating in general, pre language
astral haven
That's what I'm saying
That's when we did
They never did
young pecan
Shit we have good evidence that our ancestors were not only cooperating but engaging in ritual burials more than 700 thousand years ago.
astral haven
Maybe
But I suspect they could have gotten to the nuclear bomb twice as fast as us from cooperation to bomb
young pecan
More than 1.2 million if recent archeology is to be believed.
young pecan
Maybe
But I suspect they could have gotten to the nuclear bomb twice as fast as ...
That's real hard to tell.
coarse cloak
interesting tech talk
astral haven
Sure but that's my suspicion with obviously zero evidence
Besides the fact that their brains are tiny
astral haven
interesting tech talk
Most fundamental of all tech
young pecan
He's not wrong.
astral haven
Everything leads back to either cooperation or tool use that we call tech
young pecan
interesting tech talk
Join us for tech talk.
coarse cloak
I wish I had something to say
gonna go back to the start of the convo to read everything later
young pecan
But no, I really do think if Cordivae in general got slightly luckier with evolution they'd be the dominant species.
Flight is such a ridiculously overpowered evolution.
astral haven
Tbh I think the same thing could be said for basically every species
young pecan
Any of the top tier ones, yeah.
Lots of birds, lots of mammals, not so much aquatic.
astral haven
Even some of the classically low tier ones
young pecan
Thoughts?
astral haven
I do think aquatic could have made it earlier possibly
young pecan
I mean there's a good chance.
LUCA did come from the ocean, after all.
Much more chance to evolve there.
Some like 3.5-4 billion years ago by count.
astral haven
I also think a big often missed one is the cooperating insects
Hymenoptera
Excluding the ones that decided to be predatory ofc
astral haven
Well a hive mind able to compete with ours
young pecan
I dunno dude, wasps are in that order.
astral haven
The problem is they got so good so quick that they never had to keep improving
astral haven
I dunno dude, wasps are in that order.
They are predatory not cooperative
young pecan
Yeah but like... imagine.
Wasp hive mind.
Just leave the planet, it belongs to them now.
Mars looks nice.
astral haven
Also not true btw
They do use pheremonal language
Absolutely horrific video, watch at your peril
Shoot how do you spoiler a video on mobile
astral haven
What characters surrounding the link?
astral haven
https://youtu.be/onq9ixC7OEg
young pecan
Good guy discord.
astral haven
Sweet no imbed
young pecan
astral haven
It's called "outsmarting the giant hornets"
astral haven
the predatory species would never have had enough evolutionary pressure to develop advanced cooperation since they would have eradicated all life on land the moment they developed proper coordination
the mechanism at play here is obviously insanely simple and it was enough to get them to such a terrifying level
astral haven
ah alright, well by the next time i need it i will have fogotten :/
coarse cloak
i forget about that sometimes too
young pecan
Oh Unity is such cringe.
Who actually put the idea out to charge like that? I’ve heard some people say it was the EA CEO, and as much as that’s in character for Android Wilson I don’t know how much I believe that.
zenith silo
Who actually put the idea out to charge like that? I’ve heard some people say it...
It's an ex EA employee who was too greedy for EA
John Riccitiello
zenith silo
How is it even possible to be too greedy for Android Wilson?
He genuinely tried to pitch an idea for pay per magazine in battlefield or some shit
Sometimes along those lines
young pecan
Goddamn.
astral haven
well that one is a misconception
zenith silo
This is an apparent quote from him: “When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you’re really not that price sensitive at that point in time,”
astral haven
yep
young pecan
This is an apparent quote from him: “When you are six hours into playing Battlef...
Fuckin' YIKES.
zenith silo
He also sold a bunch of unity stock before the change in pricing went public
young pecan
This is an apparent quote from him: “When you are six hours into playing Battlef...
Can't stop looking at this.
You couldn't torture that level of evil out of me, who the fuck says that out loud on purpose.
zenith silo
Wait, it actually went past a proposal💀
I wonder if he was right?
I wonder how many people paid for it
astral haven
what?
zenith silo
the dude wasnt proposing that they put that into a game
Or did I misunderstand this
astral haven
dude wasnt
he was explaining to investors how microtransactions work
noone pays immediately, they only pay after they have spent time in the game
zenith silo
Wait my stoned ass added a comma after proposing for some reason
I get what you mean now my bad
young pecan
he was explaining to investors how microtransactions work
Still, you couldn't waterboard that sentence from me. Literally would rather die, holy shit.
astral haven
i am very confident that is not the case
young pecan
Apparently so.
astral haven
maybe but this statement is no evidence of that
astral haven
eh i doubt their situation has changed
they already lost a billion dollars last year
zenith silo
Just an extra nail in the coffin if they double down on this 🤷
astral haven
yea, its pretty clear that they arent doubling down
astral haven
oh yea
definetly gonna be pain in the short term
but maybe they can use it to turn around
cursive summit
I'm sorry what https://twitter.com/kopite7kimi/status/1703609276558897496
Twitter
Leaks said T254 is Tegra Atlan
Blackwell isn't even out for another 2 years lol, wtf
ashen spindle
Yeah so Atlan for switch not a thing
cursive summit
Oh damn
I don't know what the manufacturer is, some chinese trash
But 4TB for 160$?
Micron 176L QLC w/ Phison E21 controller. DRAM less.
Apparently virtually identical to Crucial P3 Plus
severe phoenix
Wanna know some insane luck? Install UDMSE
Internet not working even though I cloned my old MAC Address
Call up ISP, ask to register new mac address, I do, but they aren't seeing the router from my end at all
Everything is connected correctly though, so I am quite lost on this matter.
Internet had been working just before installing UDMSE...so clearly some configuration issue
Spend a few hours trying to fix it to no available. Get out of work in the morning, come home. Notice Cable from house is falling in the road...Fiber cable. Call Fidium, they said the'll make a note of it. Don't seem too bothered I suppose.
So yeah within the same hour of me installing a brand new router, the fiber optic line installed last week fell from my house, in a completely unrelated freaky timing situation
The damn odds of that happening are insane
digital cliff
it's about .0000073%
hushed dirge
Anyone know how i give permission to wootility web
reef patrol
Bottom left of the UI. Hard to miss.
severe phoenix
it's about .0000073%
Yeah someoen told me I shoudl buy a lottory ticket lmao
reef patrol
People HANG wires in 2023?
severe phoenix
IT comes from the power line to my house, attached that way
Somehow it came down at the same time I changed my router. Very suspicious timing 😛
fair gull
those arent underground?
reef patrol
No kidding 😄
fair gull
weird to attach other cables to powerlines
especially something as fragile as fibre cables
severe phoenix
I mean not attached to the power line but running alongside it
fair gull
i mean doesnt really matter. fibre needs to be underground or otherwise protected from any and all harm
reef patrol
No wonder Y'all don't have fiber anywhere.
fair gull
that just screams for broken fibre
reef patrol
severe phoenix
Most peopel get their cable and stuff delivered via wires hanging overhead
fair gull
do you also hang your sewage overhead?
fair gull
thats
the worst way to hang anything
thats so susceptible to any sort of harm and breakage
fair gull
am i glad germany and NL are both civilized countries
and use underground cables and pipes
steady tartan
We have optic fibers underground too in Poland
reef patrol
We used the irrigation ditches in the countryside for this. Easy to dig and lay pipes in. In the cities it's done below the pedestrian paths, and cross roads as needed with the water pipes.
steady tartan
And most of new electrical cabels are underground (the ones from transformators to homes). Old instalations are still above the ground
reef patrol
Yeah same. The only place you see hanging wires is for street lamps, electric trams and outside of cities on the larger transformer intercity wires.
marsh glade
Y'all are greatly underestimating the distances in the US... It is absolutely not worth it to pay 10x the installation price to entrench them versus hanging them from poles, for the vast majority of transmission lines
severe phoenix
Yeah a lot of people forget all of Europe could fit in the US with lots of space to spare
marsh glade
Texas alone covers most of Europe
reef patrol
Y'all are greatly underestimating the distances in the US... It is absolutely no...
I am mostly memeing. Still no reason not to lay wiring and pipes in the ground on the highways between states.
marsh glade
Cost is the only reason that matters
ashen spindle
For long lines sure but the end of the line towards the house still overground seems like a pain
fair gull
dont like someone? bolt cutters are cheap and their internet hangs above ground
severe phoenix
I mean it happened twice wit hthe Comcast cable in the last month before Is witched to Fiber, then happened right away with Fiber. Seems nutty. 😛
Might a conspiracy
I think I need outdoor cameras somehow, but running power would be a pain
reef patrol
Let me rephrase. The cost of a digger once instead of a crane wagon anytime there's bad weather has to be cheaper and more reliable.
fair gull
dont even need a digger for fibre
severe phoenix
Hey I mean the Fiber got drilled a hole into my house
Just a hole to the outside for the Fiber line
I can see through it
So these guys are not the best.
Didn't put any kind of seal around it
reef patrol
old marlin
quite big even
ah
that is just for feeding into the conduit
microtrenching requires 1-2 more machines
fair gull
no the steel pipes get threaded onto each other and theres a head at the end boring a hole
can put basically any conduit this way
and then just need to feed the cable in
its really fascinating tech
marsh glade
https://pdi2.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/110-Over_under-facts.pdf
"a general “rule of thumb” for estimating a range of distribution line costs is that overhead lines might average $10 per foot while the same underground line would cost between $20 to $40 per foot. "
Plus far more challenging to maintain or repair
final flame
Small poll
would you buy this design if it was on a mousepad?
old marlin
How to fuck with sensors
final flame
I doubt it would
solemn remnant
no0
ashen spindle
Probably not
tardy nebula
hey can this keycaps fit for wooting 60 HE ? https://akkogear.eu/products/black-on-white-mda-keycap-set?_pos=1&_psq=Keycaps+MDA&_ss=e&_v=1.0
final flame
it would
from what I could tell from a simple google search is it no longer matters
the only mice that could be effected are low quality and cheap mice
the color has very little to no effect on mouse tracking
old marlin
not true
even a 3395 will have issues if you make a surface as bad as possible
the 3360 still had massive issues with some pads
without even having weird colors
final flame
how can you say for sure if you've never tested it
old marlin
just stitching endgame
solemn remnant
hey can this keycaps fit for wooting 60 HE ? https://akkogear.eu/products/black-...
yes1
old marlin
how can you say for sure if you've never tested it
because fine black and white patterns are the worst outside of just using a mirror
final flame
because fine black and white patterns are the worst outside of just using a mirr...
optical mice track using texture
old marlin
no
they track using images
a mouse sensor is just a very low resolution high speed camera essentially
old marlin
they track using images
that is more or less true for any optical sensor
including laser sensors
even weird ones like philips twin eye which tracks differently relies on surface color
rough osprey
use a random pattern at the the resolution the sensor uses
old marlin
use a random pattern at the the resolution the sensor uses
that was basically the problem with the artisan raiden
was a very fine sqare stitching
so the sensor could get confused
rough osprey
do they stitch bigger now or how did they solve it
old marlin
they rotated it a bit
so the odds of it happening are reduced
- newer gen sensors have a different resolution
so the thread pitch would need to be different for issues
final flame
Just tested it by putting the design on my ipad
it works about as well as if the display was off
if anything this in favor of the pad as there is no texture on glass, and the display emits it's own light
a mouse will have a lot more darkness underneath it normally, just due to the design of it
ashen spindle
lmfao https://twitter.com/Mysticial/status/1703727139487621320 meme but need to keep this in tech
legit someone wrote to the y cruncher dev his software should not be used anymore because its a waste of energy to calculate pi or use it as stress test
final flame
if anything this in favor of the pad as there is no texture on glass, and the di...
Test was done on a g703
old marlin
if anything this in favor of the pad as there is no texture on glass, and the di...
I hope you are not about to use textureless glass as a mousepad
final flame
I hope you are not about to use textureless glass as a mousepad
it's a ipad... I said that
it's going to be textureless as it's glossy glass
old marlin
ah
well on an ipad tracking would be kinda fucked regardless
also not really comparable
final flame
they both performed about the same, with the display off, and the display showing my design
same as in they both had issues, the issue seems to be coming from the ipad much less than the design
old marlin
rough osprey
any vantablack mousepad enjoyers
old marlin
since a sensor normally tracks the reflection of it's own illumination
not the illumination of the surface
final flame
if anything this in favor of the pad as there is no texture on glass, and the di...
like I said here
old marlin
yes
you clearly don't know the difference between subtractive and additive color
color on mousepad = subtractive
color on ipad screen = additive
a sensor will react completely different to the two
and just putting a mouse on there and seeing it track does not mean it tracks well
final flame
if you're so confident why don't I send this pad over to inked gaming where they would be printing it to sell
if they have issues with it then that's that
old marlin
what
what would they do with your ipad
also do you really thing inked gaming knows shit about how a sensor tracks
I mean pulsar made a fucking mirror glass pad
and only recalled it after people said it has issues
and the skypad sora pads are close to worst cases in some areas
final flame
if it takes a measuring methodology to tell if the design is bad at tracking then it's a non issue
old marlin
sure
anybody got a clue why the new members list doesn't show all members of a server
it says "recent" at the top
but then also has some old af members on the last site
rough osprey
have they still not fixed who sees that
marsh glade
It seems to work accurately on this server
rough osprey
ah
old marlin
has increase by like 200 in the last 15 minutes
marsh glade
Oh I see what you mean, it has only indexed the last 5k members to join or so
old marlin
there was a way to open it on the browser
you mean the new member list or the server webpanel thingy
marsh glade
But if you navigate to the last pages it will show so far as the very first member to make the server
old marlin
has increase by like 200 in the last 15 minutes
makes it seem quite unlikely
rough osprey
members in beta
marsh glade
Discord in beta
old marlin
wdym proton
old marlin
that is not from this discord
pale sigil
Oh xd
old marlin
I can't even access the members list here
old marlin
I can access neither old or new
severe phoenix
I swear
Technical support for companies
Just wow
Call them up
"hey your fiber optic cable that delivers fiber to my house is in the middle of the road, need you to send someone out to fix"
"Is your service still working?"
vagrant pagoda
I mean you obviously never worked for a big company
They have to file a ticket out step by step
Or nothing will get done
old marlin
"hey your internet connection is having issues and I already restarted the router"
"restart it again"
"that will cut off my phone call"
"no it won't, just restart it"
phone call cuts out
severe phoenix
lol
cursive summit
I'm sorry, Moondrop?https://twitter.com/MoondropLab/status/1703605509331288490
CD player in nearly 2024?
Who the hell still has CDs
cursive summit
Naughty, Anders
reef patrol
The 2nd photo doesn't even have it in focus. Look at it.
crisp granite
probably both in a bundle, let’s be real
reef patrol
Focal point is on her for some reason.
reef patrol
Probably some character from a specific show.
severe phoenix
Contacts too
final flame
Who the hell still has CDs
uhh hate to break it to you
cursive summit
We are very much moving away from any physical media
severe phoenix
It actually loads up DixV
crisp granite
Who still has ears
….um
final flame
We are very much moving away from any physical media
Japan very much relies on CD sales to this day
and one of the few ways to actually get japanese music legally
cursive summit
Well, that's a Japan thing
cursive summit
Moondrop is China
reef patrol
You'd think Spotify would be crazy popular there given high speed phone internet. You could stream music videos basically anywhere.
crisp granite
Well, that's a Japan thing
And Japan is known for being stuck in the past