🔌│tech

[steep creek]

Ive only had intel and nvidia but im open for switching to amd sometime

[ashen spindle]

focusing mid range wont win mind share

[cursive summit]

It would win market share

Hopefully

[ashen spindle]

not really

[cursive summit]

If you just design like 2-3 good SKUs with top tier power efficiency, competitive performance and good pricing for midrange

That would be compelling value for mid-rangers

[astral haven]

noone buys it because theres no halo

[cursive summit]

Which is tbf most GPU sales anyways

[analog sinew]

amd could have played the price card but didnt

[magic rampart]

Gamers care about image quality and FSR is worse than dlss

[ashen spindle]

amd cant play the price they are not a charity

[hasty thunder]

Because they're playing the long term game

[cursive summit]

RDNA4 will be interesting, I hope they go with more GCDs than 1 with the whole chiplet design

Maybe some kind of big.LITTLE for GCDs?

[astral haven]

yikes

[hasty thunder]

honestly tho, they did play the price game and their 7800XT is permanently out of stock in the US

[astral haven]

well lets just hope it goes better for amd than it did for everyone else in the past?

[smoky frigate]

a current gen card selling, took gpu manufacturers long enough

[astral haven]

ill buy it if its the fastest, but i absolutely do not expect it to perform well in the slightest

at least per raw fp32 it will contain

[ashen spindle]

rdna4 will be boring

[hasty thunder]

if rumors are true, then yes, RDNA4 will be very boring

[astral haven]

who knows, after the screaming online about the rumored cancellation they might just bring it back

[ashen spindle]

always possible but soooooo unlikely

and not because of anything said online

[astral haven]

😦

[ashen spindle]

but the good point is that would make rdna5 much closer after

[astral haven]

i also dont expect to be able to buy an amd card for quite a while considering how much better dlss is than fsr and xess

[cursive summit]

We don't really have much to go off of with what RDNA4 will be

Well it's a.. 2025 product launch?

[ashen spindle]

we kinda do

[cursive summit]

Or was it late 24

[hasty thunder]

but then again, if rumors are true we won't see any new GPU from team Greed either till '25

[ashen spindle]

rdna4 is H1 24 currently

[cursive summit]

In half a years time?

Well, potentially more

[astral haven]

even a 2025 product launch would need to be nearing final silicon designs

[smoky frigate]

nvidia could probably exit the gpu business and lose nothing much overall, considering how well their H100 is doing

[cursive summit]

I saw something about hotchips happening right now/few days back, if it ended, did we get anything on zen 5?

[astral haven]

and a 2024 launch needs to be running test chips now

[cursive summit]

Need more Zen news

[astral haven]

hotchips are details about already released stuff

[ashen spindle]

hotchips usually doesnt have unreleased uArch stuff

[cursive summit]

Ah, alright

[hasty thunder]

not having team green in the game could be bad tho

[ashen spindle]

but the current timeline of what we somewhat expect is H1 24 for rdna4, h1 25 for blackwell, h2 25 for rdna5

[hasty thunder]

AMD would take the market over in no time unless Intels Battlemage will have an insane impact

[cursive summit]

Battlemage

[smoky frigate]

we'd be down to intel and AMD in yet another business. lel

[cursive summit]

I want Intel to do well, but they need to really step it up

[astral haven]

and nvidia is in fact playing the long game, and they are very well aware of the boom and bust cycles of gpus for these specialized tasks

[ashen spindle]

^

mlid saying nvidia looks at leaving gpu market is a grade a idiot

are they putting more resources into datacenter currently? absolutely

gotta take the bubble while it blow sup

[cursive summit]

Do they lose much by leaving GPU market?

[astral haven]

sure they will short term slow selling the gpus that cost 400 and make 1400 for the ones that cost 1k and make 40k

[ashen spindle]

yes lol

[cursive summit]

Wasn't consumer GPUs like 10% or some shit of total income

A big hit but not major one

[ashen spindle]

????

[smoky frigate]

seems like a waste to put this much RND into

[hasty thunder]

i like how my 6800XT was a good choice tho, because so far it doesn't do bad and it definitely outlived the 3080

[smoky frigate]

upgraded to a 3080 from a Vega, and what a godsend that 3080 is compared to that...

[ashen spindle]

only recently has gaming not been the bigger income than data center what makes oyu think its 10%

[cursive summit]

Might be confusing NV for another company

[ashen spindle]

and even if DC goes exponentially more from now on, thats like saying apple should stop doing macbooks because iphones are selling more and more

[astral haven]

dc is 10b, gaming is 2.5B
out of 13.5b

[cursive summit]

Yeah looking up FC19 reports gaming is massive for them

NV's not leaving that lol

[ashen spindle]

what quater are you looking at for that 10b

[astral haven]

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/23/nvidia-nvda-earnings-report-q2-2024.html

[ashen spindle]

oh wait we are in Q2 Fy24

[cursive summit]

That data center rise ayo

[smoky frigate]

gaming is pretty broad, innit

[astral haven]

yea nvidia is printing hella money with the h100

[cursive summit]

Not.. sure?

[astral haven]

nah its just gtx/rtx

[cursive summit]

Nintendo chips could fall under "other", technically

[astral haven]

yep

as far as i know

SOC is other

[cursive summit]

Wtf is the eye symbol and OEM?

OEM being like, licensing costs or something?

[hasty thunder]

surveillance

[smoky frigate]

what about stuff like Geforce now, how much money are they making off that

[cursive summit]

Eye seems like sec/privacy, though I don't know if Nvidia does anything like that

[astral haven]

that one i think is part of gaming?
might be part of dc

[cursive summit]

Now's not particularly popular, but they keep it going so prolly more than enough

[cursive summit]

What does that even mean

A series cards?

Ex-quadros?

[astral haven]

formerly quadros yea

[ashen spindle]

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/design-visualization/

[hasty thunder]

actually they have a cooperation with Mercedes and are programming some autonomous driving i.e. in Hamburg

[cursive summit]

Ah they really took one from AMD's book with the dent

RX 5700XT would be very proud

At least the shroud's not dented so they did it better

[hasty thunder]

i had a talk once with 2 of their engineers, because i was randomly in the same hotel as them

[astral haven]

pretty sure that was stolen from nvidia

yep nvidia was the first to dent their gpus

[cursive summit]

How much did you have to suck to have the privilege?

[steep creek]

Yep a bunch of cars are using nvidia tech as well

[astral haven]

btw thats not part of the vis business, thats obviously part of automotive

[hasty thunder]

it's actually both

[astral haven]

what chips in there are part of viz?

[hasty thunder]

Not sure if you guys heard of Mark from Liquid a few years ago, but he went to nV i.e.

[ashen spindle]

not in the car but they use omniverse for modelling and sales there go to visualization and not automotive

[hasty thunder]

https://youtu.be/O50BkP16eZo?si=x-RrwuonOF8L7s4k

[ashen spindle]

so related but not same place

[hasty thunder]

the guy with the glasses in the video's Mark

[astral haven]

sure but thats not putting chips into cars

13m cars are sold in the us each year, and the chips that go into them are expensiiiiive

[hasty thunder]

FYI: Mark's my contact at NoVideo

[cursive summit]

Zuck?

[ashen spindle]

surprised jacob isnt handling all contacts now

[hasty thunder]

lol, no, not Succerberg

[hasty thunder]

imma commit Sepukku

hold on, Yeston didn't sell a GPU with a Waifu on the backplate for once?

oh, ok

[devout raptor]

bmw should celebrate ruining every single line up they had within 2 years

[hasty thunder]

they've already publicly admitted that the new liver was a mistake they'd like to forget

[devout raptor]

lol

what excactly does liver mean

[hasty thunder]

The fuck is that VRM cooler?

and yeah, i agree, the IO is trash

waste of resources, ngl

[steep creek]

Looks wise not terrible tbf, but wouldn’t buy it

[final flame]

I like it, then again I'm a simp for anything anime and the color white

[hasty thunder]

it's a B760 board

12+1...

https://www.asus.com/supportonly/tx gaming b760m wifi d4/helpdesk_qvl_cpu/

they really have that thing...

and DDR4 only...

wow...

dat scroll shot

[steep creek]

great png name

[hasty thunder]

https://www.asus.com/motherboards-components/motherboards/tuf-gaming/tuf-gaming-b760m-btf-wifi/

i see where it comes from

and yeah, it's not a great board to begin with

holy shit... These VRMs suck hairy ass

50A

seems like they got specifically made for Intel

but yeah, the charts of these specific MOSFETs literally scream: TRASH!

[devout raptor]

is b550i aorus bro good

[halcyon willow]

Yessir, I have the same one in my ITX PC

[devout raptor]

i want one

and an itx build

itx is so much better looking

and atx builds are unnecessarily big

[halcyon willow]

I agree wholeheartedly

[hasty thunder]

depends on the use case. I have to use an ATX board, because i need a GPU and a capture card

[astral haven]

eh you can use the entirety of the io with itx on msdt

as long as all you want is nvme drives and a single gpu

[hasty thunder]

and prepare to keep an extinguisher in reach

[devout raptor]

oh okay true

[devout raptor]

idk what all that means

[astral haven]

msdt is normal desktop cpus

am5, 1700

[halcyon willow]

Yeah, a capture card would be awesome in ITX but I don’t plan on streaming so not too big of a deal

[astral haven]

and there are m.2 capture cards now so thats no problem

[halcyon willow]

Honestly ITX is more for enthusiasts and challenging yourself

[devout raptor]

im aut- entusiast

[halcyon willow]

We knew haha

[devout raptor]

Itx just looks good

the ide of fitting as much stuff in a small form factor is nice

oh yea they cost a bit much

[devout raptor]

optimum tech

[astral haven]

the one problem i have with itx systems is very few people are creative with them

[devout raptor]

https://youtu.be/X0ukdo7Xx7U?si=Zm_hGiTFxQ6zJWng

look at this

[astral haven]

thats not creativity

thats engineering

engineering is hard and impressive and all that

[halcyon willow]

In what way?

[astral haven]

actually novel designs

[devout raptor]

Um

[astral haven]

pc in small box
wow

[devout raptor]

how do u distinguish the two

[halcyon willow]

Show me something

[devout raptor]

give an example of creativity

[astral haven]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Ew2rVVTAE

[halcyon willow]

The only thing I’d watercool in ITX is my CPU

Like a 139 or 795 or something

[hasty thunder]

ah yes, the SFF tax

[devout raptor]

I want an aircooler

[astral haven]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTqxXxIpPY

[devout raptor]

just for the looks

[astral haven]

yikes

[rough osprey]

damn that looks shit

[hasty thunder]

The same people who think SFF doesn't cost extra also don't believe that B-Die Tax was a thing

[halcyon willow]

What GPU do you want in it?

[devout raptor]

i like this aesthetic

[devout raptor]

i have 4060 ti but might return it and buy a 4070

[halcyon willow]

Fuck that looks nice

[astral haven]

the aesthetic of small black box that is very similar to all of the other similar black boxes

[devout raptor]

yes

[rough osprey]

and

[astral haven]

come on what part of that is creative

[devout raptor]

Its not

its simple and nice looking

[astral haven]

my favorite aesthetic is chaos

[devout raptor]

damm

[rough osprey]

amazing build

[devout raptor]

mine is clean aesthetic

[halcyon willow]

ANARCHY

[devout raptor]

yeah hes my favorite tech youtuber atm

because hes also a fellow enthusiast

[rough osprey]

although i kinda wanna leave sff bc of temps

[halcyon willow]

No, he’s my favorite.

[devout raptor]

💀

as soon as I saw he has an RS3 I knew hes a man of taste

[halcyon willow]

Facts haha

[rough osprey]

and he got a jimny

[halcyon willow]

Had 2 model the setup around him

[astral haven]

can you possibly truthfully say that this looks anything like any other pc you have ever seen before?

[steep creek]

Those small noctua fans are sweet I’ve always wanted one hah

[devout raptor]

dual monitor arm with one monitor😭

i love the wall

[rough osprey]

ah got the same exact build

[halcyon willow]

Acrylic hardline tubing?

[halcyon willow]

Haha yeah, hold up

[devout raptor]

looks like a headache

[astral haven]

its also not a copy of anything

[devout raptor]

very nice, i will also get a mount where those arms can be moved around

insanity pc

[astral haven]

it definetly grew organically just like the algae in the original loop lel

[halcyon willow]

This is extremely well built wow

[astral haven]

its also to some extent new

[halcyon willow]

What were you trying to accomplish with your hikes

Build?

[astral haven]

best performance in the cheapest case

and i really liked it so i never changed it

[devout raptor]

kinda messy

[astral haven]

that was a 9900k+2080ti build originally, now its a 5950x and 3090 with an updated loop

"messy" lel

here was from when i just added in the second radiator and gpu into the loop

[devout raptor]

i dont understand whats happening

[astral haven]

its actually shockingly readable from this point

[halcyon willow]

I do, but it’s so messy I CBW

[astral haven]

thats the idea

and there is absolutely no possible way that anyone could mistake this system for someone elses

but at least until faster parts were released, it was near the top end of performance that you could buy

[rough osprey]

get a real case pls 😭

[astral haven]

lmao what case could possibly fit all of this

[rough osprey]

what extra stuff is in there

[warm night]

the best case is no case

just put it on top of the motherboard box

but yeah idunno what case is big enough to fit everything there, appears to be quite a lot happening

[astral haven]

there are 2 radiators, the second radiator has 20mm fans on one side and 38mm fans on the other side, and the radiator is incredibly thick

the top of the case has the ability to fit 4 pcie expansion cards of various sizes

i often swap in a xeon phi or random old gpu to test

[warm night]

I wish i even had the space to have a beautiful pc like that

mine is just shoved under my desk

[rough osprey]

so you just like big overkill cooling?

[astral haven]

its actually not that overkill

[rough osprey]

for those parts 🤨

[astral haven]

kingpin 3090 consumes 600w, and the 5950x needs really cool inlet temps to avoid heating too much

[rough osprey]

600?

what kinda oc is that

[astral haven]

also i was planning on eventually adding reservoir cooling, where i would have a large tank that the loop flows into the top and out the bottom

[astral haven]

literally just maxed power sliders

[rough osprey]

so what clocks does it run

typically

[astral haven]

dont remember

but it isnt really that high clocking

[warm night]

600w is crazy

[astral haven]

it just doesnt drop clocks under load basically at all

and yea most games cant hit 600

[rough osprey]

it better doesn't for nearly double the power

[astral haven]

yep

[warm night]

id expect like 400 in games right

maybe higher

[astral haven]

eh 300 is more common

250-300

[warm night]

oh not too had

bad

[astral haven]

if i get into vr tho? thats where the 400s start to peek out

[warm night]

expected

[astral haven]

and the optimus block for it too

60c at 600w in a 30c room

[rough osprey]

das a hot room

[astral haven]

yep

lol nah

dude bought 3, sold the slowest one

and then he sold the other 2 because he bought a pair of titan rtxes

no, xeon 3175x

😛

his system could max out a single ax1600i

[rough osprey]

im on da corsair750 with ma 3090 xd

[astral haven]

my 3090 can ocp a 750w psu on its own

literally a 1kw bios

[rough osprey]

sounds fun

not with german electricity price tho

[astral haven]

yep

and im not too happy about it either since my room ventilation is awful

[warm night]

sitting here with a 3060 ti like hmm yes I agree

[astral haven]

it very noticeably heats up my room extremely quickly

[warm night]

i feel the heat this kicks out so the 3090 must actually be a space heater

[astral haven]

but most of that is amds fault

[rough osprey]

it is

[astral haven]

it definetly does in games

but idle its fine

[warm night]

i use my pc as a foot warmer in winter

works wonders

[rough osprey]

gaming in summer is not fun

[astral haven]

but when i idle my computer, my 5950x and x570 both kick out a ton of heat

literally 20w minimum power draw on each of them

super stupid

[rough osprey]

get da 13900ks

:D

[astral haven]

that fucker actually idles at lower power than this bs

[warm night]

oh yea we've been having some pretty warm summers the past few years especially and it gets unbearable in my room if I'm gaming all day

[astral haven]

it would for me actually be better

its so dumb

[rough osprey]

weird

[astral haven]

in fact ive been considering the xeon w7 2475x

but its really useless since i probably still wouldnt use the pc much, my laptop works well enough

[astral haven]

am4 idle power was broken

the cpus had awful idle drain, and the chipsets also did

complete disaster

wall power went from 90w to 150w thanks to psu efficiency at low loads

going from a 9900k overclocked to 5g allcore with an effective tdp of 300w to a stock 5950x "105w"

[warm night]

how much does a 5950x pull even

[astral haven]

135w

[warm night]

oh

I thought more

[astral haven]

average, can peak up to 150

and if you overclock it can do alot more

[warm night]

pbo?

[astral haven]

but i didnt bother since it was so hot stock

[astral haven]

dunno, it can pull alot

[warm night]

well yes probably pbo because ryzen

[astral haven]

yea i mean i dont know numbers

[warm night]

with my minimal effort pbo tune my 5700x peaks at like 140 i think

so id expect 5950x to do a lot more

[astral haven]

yea should be able to double that

[warm night]

adds up

[astral haven]

im more disappointed by the heavily overclocked 9900k idling at 12 watts and the 5950x idling at 20 stock

and the motherboard on intel drawing 2ish watts and the amd drawing 12ish

[ashen spindle]

https://chipsandcheese.com/2023/09/16/hot-chips-2023-amds-phoenix-soc/ oh this is also out nice

[astral haven]

ooh

zen4c?

[ashen spindle]

not yet

[astral haven]

wasnt smaller phoenix using 4c?

[ashen spindle]

but goes over the HC things and a bit of the AIE

phx2 is

[astral haven]

a

[ashen spindle]

but most new thing here is about the XDNA(xilinx) parts

[astral haven]

very sweet

makes me even more hype for strix halo

imagine 64gb of lp5x or lp6 + larger ai engine = running 70b llms at fp4?

[ashen spindle]

dont think halo is doing a lot of ai, think that just has a bigger CU count but idk if that comes with more xdna than regular strix can do

[astral haven]

sure but like the bandwidth of the ai engine has to be higher than the dram bandwidth currently is

even slightly larger is probably enough to saturate 512b of lp5x

[ashen spindle]

ya

[astral haven]

llms are hella IO bound

[astral haven]

current rumor is only 256b for halo

[young pecan]

On one chip?

[astral haven]

1 cpu + dram chips but yes?

[young pecan]

Fuck that's tempting.

I'm trying to string together an LLM compute core at home and the more I look at the nice new hardware the more I want it.

[astral haven]

the modern stuff is so insane

literally cpus faster than gpus

[young pecan]

Weird to think about.

Wait.

That AMD chip, is that faster than like an actual CUDA GPU?

[astral haven]

depends, usually not

but the problem with llms is memory capacity and bandwidth not compute speed

[young pecan]

Ah.

Right so you're thinking just obscene amounts of DRAM will make it faster since you get to avoid model parallelism overhead.

[astral haven]

yep

[young pecan]

Actually what's the best RAM for LLMs? I'd think HBM, no?

[astral haven]

current fastest ai chip per dollar is the i3 13something

for llms

[young pecan]

An i3?!

[astral haven]

yep

[young pecan]

Weird timeline.

[astral haven]

obviously hbm is the best

but hbm in the capacities needed is like 20 grand or whatever

[young pecan]

Yikes.

DDR5?

[astral haven]

yea on the i3

[young pecan]

No I mean DDR5 price at needed capacities.

[astral haven]

cheap

i meant 20 grand as in the cheapest you can pay for the system

not the cost of the chips

[young pecan]

Ah.

Was thinking you meant like crazy high capacity chips or something shit all people make.

I mean how much are the actual chips?

[astral haven]

basically nothing

few bucks

hard part is you need to stack a ton of them, then integrate them

in the end it ends up being $500 of fab time

which amd charges 20k for and nvidia charges 40k for

[young pecan]

Epic cringe.

[astral haven]

tbh you actually could probably do something with epyc

sp5?

[young pecan]

Unsure.

Honestly I'm just happy we're getting more acclerators in stuff.

[astral haven]

meh, lemme introduce you to intel or apple lol

[young pecan]

I meant globally. :p

[astral haven]

intel and apple make up the vast majority of the global market lel

[young pecan]

Yes, I was including them.

[ashen spindle]

im curious what the mi300 street price will be tbh

[astral haven]

could be pretty cool later on

[young pecan]

Be chaotic and buy one at launch.

Casually bankrupt yourself.

[ashen spindle]

I mean if you got the money and places you can have one, they are being sampled for like a quarter now and deployed

in 2 months we plebs should get the full picture

[astral haven]

looks like sp5 is more expensive per channel, but allows you to get much higher bandwidth to the cpu, which should allow you lower latency inference for llms

interesting tho xeon wx is slightly more expensive per channel, but can run up to ddr5 6400 rather than just 4800

genoa should be faster in theory but it looks like it loses to the better timings you can get in xeon wx

so yea genoa is around 300GB/s/socket, xeon 3400x is able to hit 330GB/ss
and the intel i3 can go up to 102GB/ss
and it costs 150 rather than a thousand

[young pecan]

Right.

Ok that's cool.

[astral haven]

apple has some interesting stuff in this field tho

m2 pro mac mini is 1200 for around 160GB/s

mac studio is 2k for around 320GB/s

and 4k for 600+

[astral haven]

https://www.gsmarena.com/rumor_sony_xperia_1_vi_is_coming_at_the_mwc_2024_will_have_largesensor_6x_camera-news-59915.php
ooooh

even if it loses the zoom, a huge sensor + sony's digital zoom would be cool

[mild dome]

Sony still has a headphone jack yeah? Makes it a tempting option for me as I've found dongles tend to break down after only a couple months

[ashen spindle]

Wtf kinda dongles do you use

Do you remove the dongle from the cable after removing it from the phone?

[astral haven]

yes, because i only use it with other folks stuff

tho i havent broken my cx31993 dongle unlike the weaksauce apple dongle

[mild dome]

It's mostly the cable between the phone and the dongle I am having trouble with, I understand the cable is under a lot of stress, but Headphone wires usually lasted a lot longer then USB-C wires

[astral haven]

what

you mean the cable in the middle of the dongle?

[young pecan]

@astral haven Hey so random question, I don't suppose you know how to like safely backup Proxmox nodes? Whole cloth?

[astral haven]

no dice

[young pecan]

There's a few ways to do it and all of them are either garbage 'eh backup the vms and rebuild everything' or 'eh yolo' and that's garbage nonsense.

Every shred of my sysadmin being tells me that can't be it.

[astral haven]

xcp-ng here

and the orchestrator is literally just a vm

[young pecan]

How's Xen to work with?

[astral haven]

acts like everything else, tho i never really did anything fancy

[misty saffron]

if i were you i'd just buy 10 apple dongles and forget about it lol

[astral haven]

ew

just buy a single more durable one like the cx31993

or 2

[empty wren]

Anybody ever encountered wireless network connection failure on windows 10 despite the correct password being entered in?

[astral haven]

make sure you have updated your windows, old versions dont support wpa3

[empty wren]

Ah wpa3 that makes a ton sense

[astral haven]

current update on 10 should support wpa3 tho

[empty wren]

Coolio

[astral haven]

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1675200/view/3686804163591367815

hdr and vrr coming to external displays on the deck!

[sharp badger]

https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s24_series_listed_on_3c_database_with_same_charging_speeds_as_its_predecessors-news-59909.php :/

[cursive summit]

Better than Apple's 20W?

45W is plenty lol

[sharp badger]

Yeah or isn't it 30W max on the iPhone?

Current phone does 30W wired so really wouldn't want to trade down to 20W

Also have Samsung fixed the Stuttering & Shutter lag on their phones?

[halcyon moss]

It's not that simple as shutter lag

It's doing it on purpose

And there is an option to do take an instant photo

[sharp badger]

Yeah at the cost of quality

[reef patrol]

Tradeoff: It charges in the time you need it to, not the time it needs to.

65W charging has saved me so, so many times.

[digital cliff]

that's unthinkable to me as I just always charge my phone in the night if it's under 50% in the evening, basically

[reef patrol]

I can use my phone enough in a day that it needs a charge during the day

[digital cliff]

crazy

[steep creek]

yeah guess i wouldn't mind faster charging on iphone, nice to have as a backup

but i dont use my phone all that much so it usually lasts a day and through the night

[wheat plume]

My phone has freaking 35w charging
But the battery is shit now after using it for wifi sources for multiple years

[hasty thunder]

25W S23U

[wheat plume]

Why does Linux not automount secondary internal drivers?

pop in a second SDD into the system and you need to manually tell the system where to mount it to and apply that in fstab to make it do that every boot

cant wait for 3.5

[ashen spindle]

I think we got that the frist 2 or 3 times you posted that already

[wheat plume]

AUTOMOUNTING EXTERNAL DRIVES <3

(well, it already did that for SD Cards and USB Drives)

but this is for SSDs or HDDs you plug in

[reef patrol]

Poor system if it differentiates between different sized USB devices.

[wheat plume]

wait... no

it only automounts SD cards

[quasi plank]

They are asking why USB devices receive an automatic mount point while SCSI SATA etc don't

[wheat plume]

uh, yes...

for Linux desktop but on Steam Deck, it doesnt automount things over USB

only SD card

[reef patrol]

I am curious as to how you would mount either to a Steam deck

[wheat plume]

yeh xd Linux itself doesnt automount SATA or M.2 devices

but the Deck does that over USB

What is the Sephiroth APU about?

Is that the Deckard APU?

[quasi plank]

SteamOS, does it mean I can play more than Tux racing and wesnoth on Linux now

[cursive summit]

Deckard APU, they said

[wheat plume]

?

[ashen spindle]

not known so far what its for

[wheat plume]

oohhh... intresting

[ashen spindle]

could just be a die shrink for deck 2

[wheat plume]

🤔

[cursive summit]

Lana, please..

This was posted before, search before you repost

[halcyon moss]

It's a controller version 2 :p

[wheat plume]

;-; I wish I had bought a Steam Controller

that being said, I dont really use a controller anymore, except in Distance

and when playing Deck handheld

[slate viper]

Could anyone help me with a ram choose?

CMH32GX5M2B6000Z30K

F5-6000J3038F16GX2-TZ5NR
The difference between these 2

[cursive summit]

They are still around?

Just get one off amazon or second hand

[slate viper]

https://www.megekko.nl/product/7962/1074836/DDR5-Geheugen/Corsair-DDR5-Vengeance-RGB-2x16GB-6000

https://www.megekko.nl/product/7962/1070095/DDR5-Geheugen/G-Skill-Trident-Z-Neo-F5-6000J3038F16GX2-TZ5NR-2x16GB-6000Mhz-CL30

[cursive summit]

They are identical

Which colour finish do you like?

I would buy Trident Z

Only thing Corsair does better is it has a higher voltage

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/corsair-vengeance-rgb-ddr5-6000-c30-review

Look at the performance graphs

It virtually doesn't matter which stick you buy

[slate viper]

Id rather go with trident aswell

So should i just go with trident ?

[cursive summit]

I'd get Trident unless you want that higher voltage for some reason

Trident just looks better, and I'd say prolly gets better bins

[slate viper]

Alright I’ll stick with that one then. It was also my first choose

Im also wondering if should get neo rgb or rgb version

I got 7800x3d on a b650 msi

[cursive summit]

No RGB version cause fuck RGB

[slate viper]

But if i do which one should go with then

[cursive summit]

Preferences

Which one do you like more

More expensive RAM in terms of MSRP could maybe come with higher quality bins

But doubt

[wheat plume]

is it possible Microsoft could have a patent or whatever, that is related to auto-mounting additional internal drives?
because MacOS and Linux do NOT automount them despite it being very easy to do so

[digital cliff]

think that's not possible

[steep creek]

@dawn epoch you might have heard of this, but regardless my turn to suggest an app lol https://rectangleapp.com/

[wheat plume]

considering there is a patent for the very CONCEPT of having vibration feedback on a touchpad, then this probably is possible

[cursive summit]

To auto-mount internal drives in Linux, you can use the command line or a graphical user interface (GUI) depending on your preference. Here are the steps for both methods: Command Line Method:

Identify the partition you want to auto-mount and take note of its UUID and file system type. You can use the following command to list the UUIDs of all available disks:

ls -al /dev/disk/by-uuid/

Create a mount point for your drive by running the following command:

sudo mkdir /media/data

Replace "/media/data" with the desired mount point.
Mount the partition to the created mount point using the following command:

sudo mount UUID=<uuid-of-your-drive> /media/data

Replace "<uuid-of-your-drive>" with the actual UUID of your drive.
Test the auto-mount by accessing the drive at the specified mount point. If it works correctly, proceed to the next step.
Open the "/etc/fstab" file for editing using your preferred text editor:

sudo vim /etc/fstab

Add an entry for the UUID and mount point of your drive in the "/etc/fstab" file. Here's an example:

UUID=<uuid-of-your-drive> /media/data <file-system-type> defaults 0 0

Replace "<uuid-of-your-drive>", "/media/data", and "<file-system-type>" with the actual values for your drive.
Save the changes and exit the text editor.
Reboot your system to test the auto-mount at boot.

GUI Method (GNOME Disks):

Open the GNOME Disks application.
Click on the partition you want to auto-mount.
Click the gear icon and select "Edit Mount Options".
In the new window, enable the "Automatic Mount Options" toggle.
Set the desired mount point and other options.
Click "OK" to save the changes.
Test the auto-mount by accessing the drive at the specified mount point. If it works correctly, the auto-mount is set up. Note: This method may vary slightly depending on your Linux distribution and desktop environment.

[wheat plume]

(I know how to automount a drive)

just add a line to your fstab and create a mount folder for it

but like... it should be doing what Windows does, autoatically mounting and assigning a mountpoint.... I guess that would go against the philosophy of being able to do whatever you want, like what if it did this on its own but you wanted to change the folder it mounted to, would that be possible to do with this new system?

[digital cliff]

I think it's just the fact that on linux everything is a file and everything is is located somewhere in the / folder

in windows you have separate drives, in linux you just define the other drives as points in the filesystem

so by automounting you at least need to decide where to mount it, and I guess the distro makers never wanted to decide that for themselves

[wheat plume]

Yeah, thats what my assuption is too

Every guide seems to suggest /media as the mountpoint, but thats in the user folder

wait, nvm thats root

No, they could do that perhaps

but then theyd have to make the system apply the right permissions to each user when they are created

and have a way to manage if any particular user can access this or not

[steep creek]

aha i forgot that you are trying to reduce the attack surface, makes sense

yep full size is cool most fo the time

[rough osprey]

FurMark 2 :O

[raw zephyr]

what did i just read

[wheat plume]

?

[crisp granite]

This is the way

I swear I can count the number of things I’ve installed on my MacBook that aren’t installed by default on one hand

And I’ve disabled or deleted almost all of the pre installed stuff

[vagrant pagoda]

I mean you can run windows off one drive letter

[cursive summit]

@dawn epochhttps://www.cyber-oracle.com/p/roblox-game-devs-duped-by-malicious

Password manager?

Really?

That just increases your, what do you call it, attack surface?

Oh so NOW you agree that sometimes we have to take risks for a peace of mind

[ashen spindle]

password managers are an attack point but usually they make it so you other attack points are more secure

so you dont forget something but also dont make it password1234

[smoky frigate]

hey that's my password, you may not use it

[fickle ore]

Yep. Notepad is still teh best

or random word file ig

[smoky frigate]

a note taped to your desk would in theory be the safest

[crisp granite]

…

[smoky frigate]

they are cool, but the pricing is a ripoff...

[crisp granite]

Then why bother with the pro max?

More storage you won’t use?

[smoky frigate]

I have taken a lot more pictures once I got a good camera

[cursive summit]

Get the iPhone 15 Pro?

You still get the new SoC with the Pro

https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=12548&idPhone2=12557&idPhone3=12558

Lol 8GB RAM max on the iphones

Last I checked people were really bitching about 8GB being not enough

Where are they now? Oh right, Apple shills

No, we don't need headphone jacks even though the space for them exists and they don't impact the water/dust protection much, nor do they cost much either.

We apparently do need massive notches when everyone was claiming that notches are horrible on phones. But Apple somehow made notches popular again

And I guess 8GB is now again good enough, because Apple said so

[steep creek]

got the grade 5 titanium whatever that means

[devout raptor]

or just a 15 pro

[crisp granite]

Beach sandals

Upcycled

[ashen spindle]

bro what is wrong with you

[steep creek]

you know it

[ashen spindle]

system ram on a phone is not dGPU ram

[cursive summit]

Bro hit me with a bro

[crisp granite]

he can be really bratty at times

hehe

[cursive summit]

Are you lot implying that people were not bitching for years now that 8GB needs to go away?

And 12GB is just barely minimum enough?

[ashen spindle]

in phones???

[cursive summit]

In fuckin phones mate

[ashen spindle]

where

[steep creek]

my 14 pro has 6 i think, never once ran into memory issues on it

[cursive summit]

Quin you don't keep up with phones prolly

[steep creek]

the previous ones had even less, same applies there hah

[cursive summit]

But people do very much bitch that 8GB is not enough

[crisp granite]

Android users do

All five of them

[ashen spindle]

iphone 14 got an upgrade to 6gb how would people complain 12 is barely enough

[loud ember]

Im using an iphone 8 and it works perfectly fine...

It runs discord and makes phone calls.

What else are people using phones for?

[zenith silo]

I'd say 8 isn't enough for a pc

But from most people's use-case 8gb is enough in a phone

[loud ember]

8 for a pc only for browser use and non intensive tasks

Not everyone games

Not everyone uses ai

[cursive summit]

That statement makes no sense lol

Rephrase it

[loud ember]

You're*

[steep creek]

personally ive found 32 to be the sweet spot on pcs, but of coure use cases vary

[loud ember]

Yeah 32 good for almost everything you can throw at it

[final flame]

you're = you are
"you are statement makes no sense"
the proper "your" is your

[steep creek]

yep in the past i had to close programs and reduce browser tabs when programming, now i dont have to care as much

[smoky frigate]

you'r

[loud ember]

Yur

[cursive summit]

I don't get the need to even place a your there?

[final flame]

The amount of ram somebody needs changes on workflow
adobe apps for example use a ton of ram and those aren't considered games or Ai tools

[loud ember]

I sometimes find myself with 32 not being enough. Like running a local server and a game on the same system

[rough osprey]

using more then 32gb in Photoshop is very easy

[final flame]

yea

psds easily get to 1gb in size

not to mention psbs which support even higher file sizes

completely disregarding the use of scratch disks

[ashen spindle]

still waiting on seeing where this is happening

[cursive summit]

Any forum like gsmarena?

[ashen spindle]

if I could just find it with an easy google search I wouldnt ask 😛

[wheat plume]

scuse me????

bruh

[smoky frigate]

ripperoni

[wheat plume]

imma use the website, fuck this shit

[smoky frigate]

that's what it proposes, and since you can install it as a web app, it'll probably be painless

[wheat plume]

how do I join a call on the web version?

I have a meeting ID and password to join meeting idk where to input that

[final flame]

anybody know what this question is asking
never was taught this and it isn't in the book

[true quest]

60

[smoky frigate]

I have no idea but if I'm correctly guessing what they mean by a sixth, it's 10 / (1/6), which simplifies to 10*6, aka 60

[reef patrol]

Sixsts? Wot

[ashen spindle]

sixths are 1/6

[true quest]

a sixth my guy

[reef patrol]

It's not divisible by 6.

[ashen spindle]

thats not the question

[wheat plume]

1? with 4 remainder?

[reef patrol]

English is weird man. Never heard a question phrased like this.

[ashen spindle]

if you would divide 10 into 1/6 you would have 60/6

[reef patrol]

[true quest]

bro how would you phrase it

[ashen spindle]

if you have 2 cakses and put them into half slices you have 4 half slices

so there would be 4 halfs in 2

[reef patrol]

Math

[final flame]

seems to just be a complicated way to multiply

[reef patrol]

https://tenor.com/view/i-don't-get-it-fry-billy-west-futurama-i-don't-understand-gif-2607098140887596367

[true quest]

and divide

[wheat plume]

wat

are they just asking to multiply???

[astral haven]

Sixths is another way of saying 1/6
Are in is a way of saying "divide"
And 2 divides cancel out
In the end it's saying multiply by 6

[wheat plume]

yeah LOL

[ashen spindle]

yes multiplication is the opposite of division

[reef patrol]

https://tenor.com/view/supernatural-dean-winchester-oh-you-gif-22671182

[final flame]

well this is confusing, I'm assuming it just means the value of the numerator over the denominator

this answered right

[young pecan]

Who was bitching about it and what for? I haven't noticed any real limits ever. Is this for like mobile editing or something?

[smoky frigate]

no cheating on your IQ test!!!!

[final flame]

lol

[ashen spindle]

Im very certain he is mixing up vram and ram in general

[true quest]

i will make math unintuitive to watch the world burn

[final flame]

ironically this is a remedial college math class

[pale sigil]

Kinda mad

[final flame]

not even truly college level

[pale sigil]

I used to say 4gb VRAM was overkill

[young pecan]

Yeah, this was my thought as well.

[pale sigil]

When Titanfall 2 came out

[reef patrol]

And then the fire nation PS5 attacked.

[pale sigil]

I remember them saying 4gb required in the menu lol

[young pecan]

Bro I remembr when 4 gigs of VRAM was actually viable.

[final flame]

I remember when 2 was enough

[pale sigil]

2gb was the sweet spot

[astral haven]

Tbh 4gb is still usable today

[smoky frigate]

oldest gamer in the world found

[young pecan]

Bro what?

8 gigs is barely usable today.

[pale sigil]

The issue is mostly devs

[young pecan]

Or at least it seems like ever making the card go past 8 just results in huge boosts.

[pale sigil]

And them abusing dx12

[ashen spindle]

wtf are you talking about

[pale sigil]

Worded poorly

[astral haven]

Literally just that the games contain a ton of details

[final flame]

the good days back in 2017 with my 2gb 1050

[young pecan]

I think he means Vulkan being just better but they keep yoloing DX12 without putting the effort to optimize in.

[fickle ore]

Any nerds know if diamond (cybenetics) rated PSU's are coming in near future?

[astral haven]

Yea and that's so far beyond misguided that it can't even be addressed

[pale sigil]

That

Is what I meant

😅

[ashen spindle]

dx11 uses just as much ram or more

[pale sigil]

I miss dx12 hype

[young pecan]

I mean I'd be glad to be shown differently but every single time I've seen a Vulkan game really be pushed to it's limits it absolutely thrashes with DX12 is doing under the same conditions.

Vulkan is just magic juice or something.

[cursive summit]

You're wrong there

[ashen spindle]

what games are there that put heavy work into both so you can actually confirm

[astral haven]

Don't think that hunt showdown supports vulkan and it is by far the most graphically complex game

[cursive summit]

Anyways, upon some investigation, Apple crowd don't seem to care about RAM at all

iOS seems a lot more optimized than Android is

Yeah Androidians do bitch a lot though 8GB RAM though

[final flame]

IOS users don't care about ram because they don't know what dat shit is

[astral haven]

Define care, define optimized

[pale sigil]

One of the biggest complaint about MacBooks is 8gb

[young pecan]

Most graphically complex isn't a benchmark for performance. Like Doom Eternal with Vulkan is afaik the only game you can legitimately play at both high quality and high FPS at 8k and only with Vulkan.
At least insofar as graphically complex ones.

[ashen spindle]

a macbook isnt a phone

[cursive summit]

That is a crime

[smoky frigate]

looking forward to the day VKD3D is as fast as native dx12, I have a feeling it's coming

[pale sigil]

apple crowd

[ashen spindle]

read the context its about iphones

[astral haven]

But hunt showdown is more graphically complex, and if you run it translated to vulkan it runs poorer
Sure vulkan allows higher fps at low complexity, but the problem with vulkan is it's difficult to implement complexity

[young pecan]

Hmm. Why is that?

[pale sigil]

Idc, I was just responding to apple crowd xd

[astral haven]

Humans always make mistakes, and the consequences of equal likelyhood are higher in vulkan than dx12

[young pecan]

And of course if you translate a game from DX12 to Vulkan it runs worse, it needs to be built into the game.

Designed for it.

[astral haven]

Bingo

[young pecan]

Right but specifically what is it about Vulkan that makes complexity harder?

[astral haven]

How should I know?

[young pecan]

You seem to be an endless font of information, you tell me.

[final flame]

okay now this is stupid design lol, the dot can be placed anywhere so you're just guessing
I'd assume there's a buffer

[ashen spindle]

doom being one super well running game in vulkan is not really proof vulkan is so much better than dx12

[astral haven]

If anyone knew what the problem with vulkan was specifically, they would fix it and then it wouldn't be a problem any more

[smoky frigate]

more to the right

wait nevermind

herp derp!

[final flame]

nah you're right, the negative causes it to be on the right side

[fickle ore]

Im sure Vulkan lacks proper documentation as that was the case with OpenGL back in the day.

[young pecan]

Documentation is such a curse.

Like 1 in every 200 projects actually does it properly.

[ashen spindle]

both vulkan and dx12 have mostly good documentation

[astral haven]

Define proper documentation
I'm pretty sure it's perfectly documented at the level of the vulkan feature

The problem is as you get more and more abstract, there is less and less documented

[smoky frigate]

AMD did most of the legwork with vulkan, I assume they aren't shit at documenting

[young pecan]

https://www.talos.dev/v1.5/ Look at this shit.
It's a horrific mishmash of documentation of stuff that probably worked as far back as 0.9, and it's not actually tested and updated routinely. This is horrific.

Get this shit all the time.

[fickle ore]

You are way too optimistic about big corp culture

[young pecan]

The real documentation like most is their Slack channel and since Slack is F tier for 95% of users it makes a poor source.

[astral haven]

Amd is the worst documenter ever lel
And they did not do most of the work, they were just heavily involved

[ashen spindle]

amd did the heavy lifting with mantle not vulkan per se

vulkan is khronos group

[fickle ore]

and 99% of the ppl who did it quit and now nobody even knows who did what

[ashen spindle]

tf are you talking about

[astral haven]

Again tho define documentation
Open source technically means that all the information is perfectly documented, just without any abstraction

[fickle ore]

spaghyetttiii

[ashen spindle]

of what???

[fickle ore]

quin, documentation...

[smoky frigate]

in pants

[ashen spindle]

of vulkan?

[fickle ore]

bruh

thats the joke

[ashen spindle]

I cant tell if its a joke or not with half the shit said here today

[young pecan]

Bro please it being open source is the most F tier argument I've ever seen.
Yes, I can pour over the entire source code to construct the understanding and documentation myself, but y'know what that makes me? A fucking developer.
Documentation is for end users and devs to speed up their work.

[fickle ore]

no worries im just teasing you

[astral haven]

Exactly!
But that's exactly the problem

[young pecan]

I just don't get it.

You go to such incredible lengths to make something and then like cripple the userbase by not documenting it correctly.
F tier idiot move.

[astral haven]

Microsoft has documentation up to the game scale abstraction for dx12
Kronos has documentation up to the vulkan feature level practically

[astral haven]

Welcome to open source, take a look around

[young pecan]

I mean I'm long used to the shitty culture of FOSS, I'm so tired of it.

[smoky frigate]

the reason probably being that coding is fun, documenting not

[steep creek]

you know it lol

[fickle ore]

Somehow I think even DX12 is too hard for most devs so imagine doing Vulkan, WTF aint nobody got time/money for that when sales team is watching over your shoulder asking why this game is taking longer than 6 months to make

[astral haven]

And dx12 isn't foss

[young pecan]

Oh I'm not talking about DX12.

[astral haven]

Vulkan is

[young pecan]

Like the entire FOSS space.

Just so fucking done with the security holes, lack of documentation, broken features, toxic attitude, etc.

[astral haven]

Yeet

[young pecan]

I don't even mind helping fix it, it's just that sometimes you run across an asshat dev that deliberately cripples their own shit.

[smoky frigate]

you may be surprised to hear the latter depends on the quality of circle||jerk|| you choose

[young pecan]

Ok cool so this is the one choice anyone has, you're crippling it, and there isn't another alternative even if I pay so I either have to fork your stupid bullshit and fix and maintain it myself or pay someone else to.

FOSS is such a fucking joy. -_-

Was trying to implement an SSO login for my Pterodactyl panel a while back and the dev includes the most ass broken docs that right up don't even work because it breaks the panel. Bring it up to him and the response is "gO FiX iT YoUrSelF".

Sir you have had 17 people in 5 days in this discord asking for a solution, why the fuck are you charging for this still?

FOSS is full meme and not even a good one.

[knotty summit]

Pterodactyl panel is mainly community driven nowadays

[young pecan]

Yeah because their actual devs are useless sponge brain dickweeds that refuse to hand the reigns over to someone else.

If you can't maintain or improve it and you refuse to hand it over, wtf are you doing?

[knotty summit]

There is a reason, OS apps tend to be made by a single individual to handle their own needs rather to pay for something

[young pecan]

I did.

[knotty summit]

There is a reason why they do it, tho they let through most of PRs

[astral haven]

FYI that's not always the case, see chromium, pfsense, xen, and at least the Linux kernel

[knotty summit]

The ptero panel was overrun by some other ones as of recent and the fact that people only ask for features make it this way

[young pecan]

pfSense is a fucking disaster of security, Chromium is actually good, Xen I can't speak for, and the Linux Kernel is good because it's extremely high profile and actually attracts good devs that know their shit.

[astral haven]

What

[steep creek]

firefox too, i like it

[knotty summit]

Imma dip from this mess

[cursive summit]

Is FOSS just a fancy way of saying floss?

[knotty summit]

Also there is a reason why foss is foss

Linux is not a meme

[astral haven]

Pfsense is top tier security wise, it's just easy to misconfigure, beyond the best solution in the space

Again not all of linux, just the kernel

[fickle ore]

Just tell me does Pfsense spy on me?

[knotty summit]

Nah really y'all make no sense

[smoky frigate]

hot take central

[young pecan]

99% of Linux distros let the user modify ring0 and the kernal at will. This is not good for shit. If you think it is I can confidently say you have no idea what code signing is or is good for.

[astral haven]

Sorry but welcome to security

It's provably impossible to have features without tradeoffs

[knotty summit]

Same as you could say wireguard sucks. Lik... not all software needs to be user friendly

[young pecan]

^ For mission critical shit you avoid as make holes as possible.

[knotty summit]

There is a reason why it is open source. You have control over what you do and are responsible for ALL changes you make

[young pecan]

Open source =/= security hole in every distro

[knotty summit]

Not everything needs to be as user friendly

[astral haven]

But it is capable of being more secure than unifi for the tradeoff of being misconfigured by someone without a security mindset

[knotty summit]

If you secure it well there is no reason to be scared

[young pecan]

So we ignore that privilege escalation exists and 0day attacks?

[ashen spindle]

nothing said here today made any fucking sense

[knotty summit]

Man I'll just dip this shit y'all make absolutely zero sense

[knotty summit]

There will ALWAYS exist another 0day to be found, in all and every software

[cursive summit]

Thanks hun

[knotty summit]

Yeah, I just can't my brain is melting

[young pecan]

Bro you're defending the user being able to modify ring0 and the kernel with a single password entry and your justification for this is 'but something eventually goes wrong'. That's brain dent territory.

You do not throw away all of your good security because of a single maybe.

[knotty summit]

Dude, you can do same on windows WITHOUT password entry

[young pecan]

No you cannot.

[knotty summit]

Just to be clear

yes you can

[young pecan]

That needs signed code or a sandbox install.

You can't do it from the user.

It right up will not let you.

[knotty summit]

You can do it from the user

[astral haven]

If you make the user account originally as an administrator and never change it, then yes it does. But that's not a fault of the system, that's just a fault of the person who configured the system.

[young pecan]

Yes.

[knotty summit]

Dude exactly

[young pecan]

An actual user, not an admin? Can't do it.

This is not how Linux works.

[steep creek]

sometimes i get annoyed by windows and swap to linux, only to experience the same and swap back, lol

[astral haven]

But, if it is misconfigured, then the user is the admin.

[knotty summit]

On linux you have the same

Dude you know permissions exist on linux

On windows its much more broad, and easy to configure

[astral haven]

There are extremely few systems where this is not the case. One of those is a microwave, for example.

[young pecan]

And this is why having documentation is good.
However Linux does not have the same protections like code signing.

[knotty summit]

Linux is made to be configured by the user itself

[astral haven]

Linux (just the kernel) has much more security than Chrome OS or macOS. It just is not forced on you.

[knotty summit]

Linux is made to be configured as you want. Not to lock you in one state

[astral haven]

No, that is what is called a trade-off.

[knotty summit]

Chromeos can be exploited and has had 0days

[astral haven]

The Linux kernel does not support much in the way of code at all...

[knotty summit]

imma just get some popcron and wafch

[young pecan]

You don't need to pick one extreme, you can have both a highly secure OS and the ability for the user to do things.

It's called let the user install as admin if they want which opens up huge security holes and opt into basic user, this is not what Linux does by default.

[astral haven]

Again, I am not talking about specific desktop environments that are built on top of the Linux kernel. I am talking just about the kernel itself.

[young pecan]

Admin user is auto opt in for a vast majority of Linux distros.

[astral haven]

And yet, every one of those systems is able to be properly implemented on top of those systems in a secure manner, unlike what is available on macOS, Chrome OS, or Windows.

[knotty summit]

Neither does windows do if by default if we take it from that side. Other than that linux is known to need to be configured while many people on windows are not 100% sure that it works like that

Admin is auto opt in for windows too sadly

And again, each to their own

[young pecan]

While true Windows has layers of security to prevent attacks which Linux almost never has.

[knotty summit]

Linux doesn't because it's not made for that

Nah that's all from me. Take care guys I just can't like this

[young pecan]

And that's idiotic, power user doesn't mean you're immune to 0days or exploits.

[astral haven]

Again yall are talking about the OS linux
I am talking about the 120ish MB block of code that is purely the Linux kernel

[young pecan]

Just code signing alone is a massive thing.

[astral haven]

Yes but you don't need code signing if you can quantify all of the code you run

[young pecan]

Well given the hugely 'idk wtf I'm doing' nature of FOSS it's a pretty solid idea to have code signing.

[astral haven]

To make the Linux kernel insecure, you have to add things to it

[wheat plume]

a lot of people think that just because something is open source, means that a hacker can make some exploit and its immediately installed in all devices that run said code....

but thats not the case

[young pecan]

Well that's just not true whatsoever.

[wheat plume]

the code that enters the kernel goes through very VERY tight inspections

[ashen spindle]

its also not really what anyone said or implied

[young pecan]

^

[wheat plume]

ive seen many people who think that is how it works

[young pecan]

Because it is.

[wheat plume]

no...

[young pecan]

Take the recent attack on Curseforge, a fully FOSS platform, that was actively distributing malicious code to people.

Used a few attacks.

[wheat plume]

yeah, thats not Linux, which we are talking about

thats hacked jar files

[knotty summit]

Dude atrack on curseforge was THEIR fault

And faulty jar files

[wheat plume]

yeh

exactly

[knotty summit]

Nothing to do with foss

[young pecan]

And? You mentioned it can't be done, it very much can be done.
The platform is not the relevant topic there.

[knotty summit]

Get your points straight

[wheat plume]

I said it cant be done on Linux kernel

Literalyl said kernel

[knotty summit]

It has NOTHING to do with platform/FOSS

[astral haven]

It can't be done to chromium, the Linux kernel, or xen

[young pecan]

Ah, I missed that.

[young pecan]

Thought you were talking about that kind of attack vector.

Like wtf no.

[knotty summit]

[young pecan]

No thank fuck that can't easily be done with low level stuff, that would be S tier disaster.

[wheat plume]

was the mod that hacked Curseforge even open source?

dont think so

[knotty summit]

No

[wheat plume]

yes so

[young pecan]

Yes.

[knotty summit]

There was I think 15 mods

It wasn't

15 mods tho, not one

[wheat plume]

ahh

[astral haven]

Like Foss is a mechanism by which a company or organization can take a system and find bugs quickly
The important part is how good the people who are inspecting the code are

[knotty summit]

https://github.com/fractureiser-investigation/fractureiser

[young pecan]

https://github.com/fractureiser-investigation/fractureiser/blob/main/docs/users.md#what-actually-happened

Was done with FOSS mods.

[knotty summit]

4 stage exploit

[young pecan]

Mhmm.

4 stage exploit that involved a weakness with Curseforge and jar files.

[knotty summit]

The mod itself that they posted was not FOSS

Starter mod was, later ones not

They took a mod, changed it a bit and that's it

[young pecan]

Like the initial payload? Yes it was FOSS.

It was a modified upload.

Wasn't closed source at all.

[wheat plume]

do curseforge examine the code for all FOSS mods they get submitted?

[young pecan]

They didn't before which is how this happened.

[wheat plume]

do they examine any mods?

Yes, so this is on them

not FOSS

Anything important on Linux, kernel, base utils etc etc all have strict security measures

[knotty summit]

Everything has an exploit

[wheat plume]

yes

true

[young pecan]

FOSS allowed someone to clone, modify, and then upload a malicious payload under the guise of legitimacy. That failure is able to happen anywhere.

[knotty summit]

Be it one way or another

Tho it may be taking it to extreme it is truth

[young pecan]

Social engineering is one such way.

[wheat plume]

it wont be uploaded if the place being uploaded to has proper precautions in place

[knotty summit]

All it takes is one smart person to see it

[astral haven]

Yes but it also can and has happened inside of closed source shiz, and it's harder to notice

[young pecan]

Very, very much depends, this is not a whole truth.

[astral haven]

If you have the same quality of code inspector inspecting the code, the result is the same

[young pecan]

Personally speaking I trust a team of actual security pros and pentesters a whole fuck of a lot more than I trust 'the eyes of the community' to secure shit. Same goes for code checking.

[astral haven]

Exactly

[young pecan]

Yep, and that's why high profile stuff is usually fine.

The problem here is most FOSS isn't big enough to warrant that. It's a minefield.

[astral haven]

So if you keep the pentesters and code checkers, and all you do is get more eyes on it, it's just better
The problem is when you replace pentesters and code checkers with randos online

[young pecan]

Fuck ikr.

[knotty summit]

I work in blue team part od the community and have been red team for 2 years beforehand. I really can't argue with you guys, you made 0 sense few times and it just killed my will to try

[young pecan]

Money truly is the almighty motivator.

[astral haven]

Chromium, the Linux kernel, pfsense, and xen are all examples of companies just putting code up online for people to tear apart, and minimally accept input from the community

[knotty summit]

For a fact I can tell you a group of hobbyists and volunteers DID do better jo than big companies MANY times

[young pecan]

pfSense needs a better UX. Like holy shit.

[astral haven]

The code checkers themselves don't, but redhat and Google both fuzz the kernel for them

[knotty summit]

UX is eh, nog needed

You can make one yourself

[young pecan]

Ok cool your opinion is dumb.

pfSense gets used by end users, they not only can't do that, but don't have the knowledge.

[knotty summit]

Should not

It's expectation but should not

[young pecan]

Coolio buddy, off to the shadow realm of awful takes with you.

[knotty summit]

Again, look at wireguard which is widely used in selfhosting community, it has 0 UI

[astral haven]

Also pfsense has the best ui out of any of the network router operating systems that are capable of solo dpi and simultaneously capable of HA

[young pecan]

Y'know what gets used more than Wireguard? Wg-easy.

[knotty summit]

No it doesn't

[young pecan]

If we're not including integrated things? Yes.

[knotty summit]

It doesn't

[astral haven]

That's extremely basic group theory lel

[knotty summit]

[young pecan]

I mean it's the best, but awful dogshit isn't really competition, y'know?

What, are we bringing Cisco in as contest? Kek

Worst UX ever.

[knotty summit]

LOL, it's used standalone more than integrated

[young pecan]

That whole company. F tier.

[knotty summit]

Nah really I can't, cya

[young pecan]

Mm actually if we talk mass deployments maybe.

Like if we're cloning a few tens of thousands of PCs with CLI Wireguard.

Do that a bunch of times and yeah that'd probably skew the numbers.

Then Kube on top.

[astral haven]

They have the best, keep improving, and are still working on up leveling their featureset
Pick a random networking company that supports HA and single machine dpi, and you'd be hard pressed to find a gui that is complete

What's more important than the gui being pleasant to use is that the gui be functional

[young pecan]

While this is true we actively have examples of better UIs and them not supporting 2 features isn't a valid reason to say the UI can't be better.

Oh for sure. And let's ignore everyone switching from UX to terminal so we can skew the numbers and say terminal is magically more secure!

Also lets ignore every single tool like k9s which uses a UX in a terminal.

[astral haven]

Strawman much?
If you require a specific set of features it is the best option
If a better option comes along? Great
But pfsense is improving the fastest, and is already the most complete