🤩│wooting60hev2

[hearty lava]

Peoples are starting using woot keyboards as their main keyboard not only for gaming why not give them full capabilities with those macros?!

[wooden bluff]

even arrows etc could be on left side https://i.imgur.com/lBtVTul.png

[hearty lava]

I prefer having an ultimate 60he rather than switching with 2 keyboards for different purposes

But maybe we are max 3 to think like that

[vast dagger]

Probably more but most functionality can be done with third party programs and those who "need" it on board are the rare ones

[tropic relic]

https://tenor.com/view/subida-gif-18379274

[hearty lava]

always want to sell us your 4U space 😂

[wooden bluff]

if wooting do full, they should unironically do 'mirrored' similar to this. Just tkl area there instead and num area to the left - this way nothing gets in the way for mouse, especially while gaming.

[wooden bluff]

that's 4.25. and jis-like they could have done has 4.5.

that's because you don't need long spacebar, it's a remnant of the past (esp because of extra benefits you get, esp Alts being centralized and more useful, esp playing some game).

[oblique pendant]

Waow

[wooden bluff]

I often find myself as the only serious person on this server

[tropic relic]

[hearty lava]

https://tenor.com/view/tawatawa-gif-7173041373909167823

[midnight basalt]

Hey Wooting fam! here are some closeups of the new Lekker Tikken Switches and packaging 🙂

[oblique pendant]

mmm, Tikken

[short hare]

Wasabi gets to see packaging before the general overall people that work for the company

[midnight basalt]

🤣

[timber nimbus]

it's because of his camera, he's using a sony clearly

[spring stirrup]

Sony camera does the job

Smart choice wasabi

[timber nimbus]

shafie would like to know what lens you used for these photos though

[spring stirrup]

[short hare]

any other things you can share

[midnight basalt]

yesss but my legs are dying and I just got back to the hotel hahah!! Gotta fly home tomorrow 😄

[short hare]

get some good rest and safe travels for tomorrow

[timber nimbus]

i see how wasabi is - he's keeping his lens secrets away from shafie. Doesn't want to say

[tropic relic]

Did you get to try the knobs Wasabi?

[midnight basalt]

work first 🤩

[timber nimbus]

oh he's exposed his secrets

quick @spring stirrup

[spring stirrup]

https://tenor.com/view/caught-in4k-caught-you-in4k-meme-caught-in4k-meme-caught-you-gif-25209362

[timber nimbus]

that looks like a g lens ends with 50mm, maybe thee 24-50mm?

[midnight basalt]

oo sorry hahaa for this event I am using a..

[vast dagger]

I need that setup so compact but powerful

[short hare]

[midnight basalt]

yes that one!!! I get so confused with lens names my bad

[timber nimbus]

also a wandrd provoke bag it seems

an excellent choice

wasabi gets the sony lens church seal of approval

[midnight basalt]

i’m “field testing” it! it’s a bag i’ve been wanting to get for many years already! the design is so niceee

[timber nimbus]

@spring stirrup it's important to keep accurate notes - since he's using a 24-50mm on 6700 that means it's a 1.5 apsc crop so he's using it like a 36-75mm lens, better write that down

[midnight basalt]

oh yes for the knob I did get to try it. Rotation and press works just fine but it is still a prototype. The experience will be much improved and refined by Q1 2026

[vast dagger]

I want that Sony 70-350mm or 105-525mm full frame equivalent

[tropic relic]

The smaller one and bigger one can be pressed too? 😮

[midnight basalt]

both can be pressed 🙂

[tropic relic]

[vast dagger]

https://tenor.com/view/magic-how-do-they-work-magnets-ho-wtf-gif-15717467

[tropic relic]

Magic, how does it work?

[midnight basalt]

Mmmm…. magic 😆

Another thing people can look forward to is when other brands get creative with the colours, designs and feel of hot swappable knobs that they produce which you guys can use on your Wooting keyboard. So this could become another way for people to personalise their keyboard even further.

Here are some views of the split spacebar

and this is the white colour way with the white wrist rest. I think looks so pretty

There will be two options when this be becomes available. Classic regular spacebar or the Split spacebar.

There was a gaming setup with CS2 on and i tried both the split and normal spacebar. For me using the one with the split, it did not feel any different or out of place. It’s like a seamless integration of a feature that allows for more flexibility with how you game.

[oblique pendant]

naisu

[midnight basalt]

cool stuff!

[spring stirrup]

@midnight basalt Do you have silver case photos?

[oblique pendant]

seems like it'll be a nice split spacebar for gamer afterall.

[midnight basalt]

HEHEHEHE

[midnight basalt]

it sure is!!

Asus has a split spacebar keyboard too and I was a bit taken back when I saw it in person because they split the entire keyboard

[tropic relic]

Woot patented it, surely.. Literally revolutionizing hall effect rotary encoders with magic. 😮😮

[oblique pendant]

can it do 360?

[midnight basalt]

👀

[midnight basalt]

ah! good question.. I remember doing 780 on it

[oblique pendant]

OOOOO

Okay that settles it

[tropic relic]

I genuinely believe they have a wizard in their team.

[spring stirrup]

That small knob is super nice

Ill def get it and replace my esk key

[tropic relic]

This shit should not be possible. 😭

[spring stirrup]

👀

[tropic relic]

It’s crazy

[spring stirrup]

surely you can bind esc + other features

[earnest marsh]

how high? top 5?

[tropic relic]

I think the knob will be an advanced key honestly

[spring stirrup]

Yeah

[tropic relic]

like an advanced key you have to set to use the knob

[oblique pendant]

I wanna feel it now

[spring stirrup]

Wo😎ting

Who is wizard in your team Mark, tell us right now

[earnest marsh]

simon?

[timber nimbus]

Rouhan.

[spring stirrup]

ah multiple wizards, got it

[timber nimbus]

She has never led us astray

[earnest marsh]

rouhan does have the high score on switchy to be fair

[oblique pendant]

The other question is, is it responsive enough for rhythm game

[spring stirrup]

Rouhan our goat, leaked 60he pro 8 months ago

😃 👍

[oblique pendant]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA2skLc38tc With 60hev2 being split space, I can see it being nice for this kind of game + knob.

[tropic relic]

I think I’ve broken my head thinking about how it works

[spring stirrup]

Give up, you are not him bro

🌹

[tropic relic]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1226077523616600106/1357808679163793640/abnaj.gif

[hardy wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/mando-way-this-is-the-way-mandalorian-star-wars-gif-18467370

[hardy wadi]

@lone sail @lunar minnow

https://tenor.com/view/cat-gato-funny-dj-festa-gif-15160628

me with that wooting knob

[earnest marsh]

i will definitely be testing it for k-shoot once i get my hands on it

[oblique pendant]

I looked into the small knob more. The movement on the switch is soo low despite doing like 80-90 rotation. It has a tad increase on it. So it can def do 360. What I can at least theorize, when it reach at the top, the inside of the knob will change a little bit using rotational force. Considering the software already knows it reaches 4mm, it'll switch the direction thus giving you an infinite spin. Maybe there'll be a delay/deadzone but that's not too bad for rhythm game even if it's like 0.5mm.

One thing I'm curious to see is twist while pressing gently. The knob seems to remember where it is prior to being pressed. It makes me think there's a nubbin inside that's pressing on the switch but doesn't actually lock it in place.

This doesn't look like what you see on a HE switch. It might be on top of the switch, which kinda helps helps with the fact that there still need to be some resistance for the rotational force to be transferred to be able to move the magnet/stem.

That's all I can say rn.

[tropic relic]

It’d have to be noncontinuous to be even remotely possible. That it doesn’t have an orientation indicator made me forget that (seemed to imply continuous rotation). The magnet can probably move more than 4mm vertically in it. I presume when it reached when you almost reach the top or bottom, there will be a spring. When twisted beyond that, the boards sends the action continuously. That’s the only way volume up and down would be possible (as shown in the teaser image).

[tropic relic]

Yeah, this would probably be problematic. Woot can already differentiate stem wobble from regular pressing so perhaps they’ll apply something like it for the knob as well.

[oblique pendant]

You know, it doesn't have to be just 4mm, it can be 6mm. As long as the sensor can sense it without much trouble.

[tropic relic]

Yeah.

[oblique pendant]

They can limit how far it can rotate but leave the push to be beyond that

[tropic relic]

You can hold a magnet like 10cm above the board and you’ll be able to see it in Analog Monitor.

10cm is exaggerating, like 6cm with a pinky sized magnet.

[tropic relic]

I don’t think the knob goes on top of the switch by the way. Most likely it’ll be its own thing. So you take the switch out and install the knob. “Hot-swappable” would refer to that.

[oblique pendant]

that way is fine too, with the way I'm thinking it's working, with or without switch it's prop going to work mostly the same.

[austere edge]

man I really hate SOONᵀᴹ

[rotund lotus]

A small handful of tech media got their hands on the knobs, can't wait to see their content

[sinful plover]

this early? god damn

[rotund lotus]

This early, we've been working on the dang things for years now

[sinful plover]

early as in, far from release

not in context of the whole development timeline

[rotund lotus]

The original plan was for them to release with the 80he, but we don't settle with "good enough"

[sinful plover]

i really am curious how they will work

[rotund lotus]

Amazingly

[sinful plover]

hope there will be an explainer around release

[timber nimbus]

i believe they will include a force known as rotation

maybe some counter rotation as well

[sinful plover]

interesting, i will have to look into this

[timber nimbus]

yep, check with chatgpt to be sure

[sinful plover]

no chatgpt is not a reliable source

i will use uh

wikipedia and my uncle on facebook to check this info

[rotund lotus]

If Wooting made a knob, it would almost certainly be designed with a strong focus on analog input precision, modularity, and seamless integration with existing Wooting products. Here’s how such a product would likely work, based on Wooting’s hardware and software philosophy:

• chatgpt

[vast dagger]

I only get mine from rednote that's the truest source of information

[hardy wadi]

can i get moumou face on the wooting knob?

[tropic relic]

Patented?

[hardy wadi]

hear me out lcd screen on wooting knob

[rotund lotus]

Strap an Nzxt CPU cooler to your keyboard, easy

[hoary trout]

Prob when you turn it it goes up and down slightly, depend on the height it prob detects where it is or what you could do with it

With some Magnetic Stuff Inside

[hoary trout]

buy beast x first

[hardy wadi]

btw

you buy beast x?

[hoary trout]

no im a hoe

[hardy wadi]

thats why youre never cold

[hoary trout]

oh you want me to buy it rn

[hardy wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/doja-cat-star-wars-gif-25078126

buy wooting knob for unlimited power

since youre on spending spree

[hoary trout]

Yeah let me time travel rq

You want me to get something else too?

A Burger that goes back in time?

[hardy wadi]

yeah

[rotund lotus]

I'll have some chicken nuggies please, the dino shaped ones

[hardy wadi]

i need ice coffee

[hoary trout]

Beast X Pro or Beast X Mini Pro😔

[hardy wadi]

(how to bribe mr akbar)

[hoary trout]

Ofc yall want some food

[hardy wadi]

that choice is up to you

[short hare]

get me a matcha latte please

[hoary trout]

NO ONE WANTS THE TIKKEN???

[hardy wadi]

not available rn

[rotund lotus]

I already have them

[hoary trout]

MAN I TIME TRAVEL TO KNOB SO V2 AND SWITCH IS OUT

[short hare]

im pretty sure I can get to them easily

[hoary trout]

can you get me

[rotund lotus]

I don't have any chicken nuggies though, is that not an option?

[hoary trout]

I dont tell anyone

hehe

[hardy wadi]

what if i buy chicken nuggies for you and then you give me tikken switches

https://tenor.com/view/inglorious-basterds-aldo-aldo-the-apache-brad-pitt-make-that-deal-gif-17140905

[rotund lotus]

This is compelling

[short hare]

[rotund lotus]

Let me sleep on it

[hoary trout]

You can sleep on the Nuggets too

So you made 2 Ws

[short hare]

Mark is about to count switchies before sleepy time

[rotund lotus]

The moment I close my eyes, it'll be 7am

[hardy wadi]

no he'll be counting chicken nuggies

[rotund lotus]

Which sounds like a good idea

[hoary trout]

Goku why i know your fatahh would eat them before givin it to Mark

[rotund lotus]

Welterusten 😴

[short hare]

its high nooooon somewhere in the world

[lucid trout]

Hello raclette

[hoary trout]

But but BEAST X PRO OR MINI PRO

[hardy wadi]

idk how big your hand is

[hoary trout]

👀

[hardy wadi]

you like big or tiny mice

[hoary trout]

You wanna see?

[short hare]

hello Jacob 🐺

[hoary trout]

Wait how do you measure hand size

From my Middle Finger?

18/9 i would say so prob Beast X Pro

mhmm

[inner tartan]

How much is this in freedom units?

Seriously though please take the mouse talk to our shiny new peripheral's channel - https://discord.com/channels/167181566978555904/1374710487329017926

[hardy wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/america-hurricane-happy4th-of-july-america-flag-independence-day-gif-9338065310670481220

[inner tartan]

We made a channel just for mouse min/maxxers like you guys

[peak prairie]

Wooting mouse confirmed?

[jolly sable]

When can I buy some tikken switches!?

[hardy wadi]

around 60v2 official release

[lucid trout]

No it is not

[hoary trout]

what

free goku

[peak prairie]

Idk they made a channel for mice peeps

Might be a sign

[peak prairie]

[lucid trout]

Then why it is in just chatting category

[peak prairie]

Ok buzzkill

Let a homie dream

[devout violet]

same

[grave breach]

what website/app is this

[hoary trout]

Eloshape

[grave breach]

thanks

[cedar slate]

will the 60hev2 still be 0.1mm ap

or do they plan on lowering it

[reef horizon]

yes

[reef horizon]

theres no point

[cedar slate]

why do you say that

[reef horizon]

the PCB is already capable of sub 0.1mm AP but no switch can consistently hit much lower than that

0.1mm is about the lowest consistent actuation you can reach

[cedar slate]

ahh i see, there has been some pretty decent implementations of it though no ?

[reef horizon]

theres also diminishing returns past 0.1mm, you either wouldnt notice it or it would be unusable levels of sensitive

[reef horizon]

no

[cedar slate]

do you think something like .05mm would be inconsistent ?

[reef horizon]

yes

[reef horizon]

pretty much every board claiming sub 0.1mm actuation has lied

they usually have way higher deadzones so it doesnt even matter

[cedar slate]

i've been testing the slice75HE since i got sent one for review, i honestly think their implementation of .005 is fairly consistent, it feels snappier to me

i play games like siege, so i quick peak and stuff a lot and i will say it feels a bit faster

[reef horizon]

the deadzone is almost certainly way higher than that

[cedar slate]

it has an adjustable dead zone as well

[lucid trout]

Snappier ≠ consistient in input all the time

[timber nimbus]

what he's saying isn't that it can't adjust deadzone - he's saying 0.005 isn't really 0.005

it's like 0.005 except it'll turn off and work like something more usable a lot of the times because that's the only way for settings that low to actually be used

so your 0.005 is for show and really functions like say 0.05 or similar

[cedar slate]

yea i understand that, im saying that like in terms of sheer feel in a game it is a BIT FASTER

what do you guys think the ceiling is then ? in terms of like consistent and true input

[timber nimbus]

0.05 maybe on super super stable switches, but even that's debatable

personally 0.1-0.3 is probably more smart to use for a competitive game where consistency matters

[cedar slate]

i see i see

[timber nimbus]

like if you put a gun to my head and say 'strafe peek this corner 100 times perfectly' in valorant, there's zero chance i'm using 0.005 or some other absurdly low setting for example

it's why a lot of even gifted mechanical pros don't use settings that low - it's just not consistent for actual controlled usage

[lucid trout]

Unless you are robot

[cedar slate]

to an extent that makes sense, i kind of just saw it as one of those features where like

maybe add it and make a disclaimer that it's not really consistent

so if it's something people may WANT to use

they can

i personally probably wouldn't, when i was using the slice i found it a bit too fast

and i'd like overpeak sometimes

[reef horizon]

the switches the keyboard comes with likely wouldnt even be able to work well that low

[timber nimbus]

it's pretty much just added because people don't take the time to think how absurd the amounts get for each decimal we drop lower

for example if we drop one more decimal lower past 0.005 then you're measuring the size of viruses under a microscope

[cedar slate]

ahhh i see

[reef horizon]

unless wooting poured some magic into the tikkens

[cedar slate]

yea like this seems... absurd

i will say i tried .05 on my slice with jade pros and it felt pretty good

.005 i can't really make an argument for

[lucid trout]

Whats your faceit elo?

[timber nimbus]

i think 0.05 is usable in some scenarios depending on super stable switches

although i'm still unsure how truly consistent it would be over something like 0.1

[cedar slate]

would you consider the jade pros super stable

[lucid trout]

They are not

[timber nimbus]

they're not bad, but not as good as some other box stems

[cedar slate]

i haven't gotten into faceit unfortunately, i don't think i would use something like that on cs tho at all

cs feels very like

sensitive.. if you get what i'm saying

like you get to full momentum when strafing REALLY fast

[timber nimbus]

it's funny people are going lower yet tenz is going higher last I saw

[cedar slate]

it would honestly feel uncomfy to use on cs

[reef horizon]

no bro twust I know better than tenz 🙏

[cedar slate]

the only game that i've found having a really low ap to help is like siege

[lucid trout]

Because if you have high faceit elo you have high game knowledge and motorskills to know

[cedar slate]

like i said doing things like quick peaking just felt a bit better

[cedar slate]

i play more val than cs, i want to start playing faceit though

i'm currently immo3 on val if that means anything to you

[lucid trout]

Well if you are above 3500 elo consider your self very good

But only eu elo matters

[timber nimbus]

he's immo3, which means very good if you want to transfer that rating to cs

[lucid trout]

So it would be like 2000 faceit elo

[timber nimbus]

it's basically same as being in top percentile of faceit if you want to convert the rankings

iirc immo3 and up is basically top 0.15% or something like that of valorant

[lucid trout]

Is it?

[cedar slate]

yea it's around there i believe

[lucid trout]

Then his faceit elo would be like 1800

Ngl

[timber nimbus]

i don't trust anything you say when you compare cs and valorant to be honest lol

[cedar slate]

i don't really compare them much

cs is strategic gun skill

[timber nimbus]

yeah i don't think they're the same game since valorant has so much util stuff

[reef horizon]

nah valorant is a game about precise gun play

[lucid trout]

Basicly chess with guns

What valorant wanted to be

[cedar slate]

valorant is way harder in its own way, i don't really think the two games correlate at all

[timber nimbus]

more so I mean jakubix is never giving an honest rating of anything valorant related because he hates valorant lol

[cedar slate]

too much util to play around for the games to be compared

[timber nimbus]

like if you say you're professional in valorant he'll probably say "oh so barely faceit amatuer then"

[frigid lily]

Will there be other types of wooting 60 he V2 switches available for sale?

[cedar slate]

i'm not dismissing cs i feel like it's a very hard game i just think valorant is a lot harder to play.

[cedar slate]

the tikkens are the only ones releasing currently i believe

[timber nimbus]

there will be other switches in the store if that's what you mean - like how it is now. But tikkens will be the stock option

[cedar slate]

^

[reef horizon]

https://youtu.be/7qrjePJi4UE

[lucid trout]

More like tier4 to tier5. If cs pro converted into valo like scream maybe rn he could play on tier3 maybe tier 2 max

[timber nimbus]

whatever works for you jakubix

[cedar slate]

you could still buy geon raws, og lekkers, jades etc

on site but the default option will be the tikken

[timber nimbus]

they're totally different games besides both being tactical shooters, i don't think anyone was comparing the skill of the two, moreso just where the rankings lined up

[cedar slate]

mmmmmm

i disagree

mainly because it's never really been done. when a lot of cs pros came to valorant and made like t1 it was because at the time valorant WAS actually gun play based

[lucid trout]

Valorant is hero shooter with some aspects of tactical shooter

[cedar slate]

you can't really make that argument anymore

[timber nimbus]

yeah hence they're totally different games, you can't really judge how a pro in one game would do in another game because they're so different beyond just aim and mechanics

[lucid trout]

I was doing fine without abilities in valo

I just hate their randomized recoil

[cedar slate]

there's a lot of aspects in val that can correlate to cs and vice versa, you can still learn positioning and gunplay in val

[timber nimbus]

aim translates but at pro level the other aspects will wrecks you

[cedar slate]

i mean yea, without abilities, because the game had more correlation to cs at that time

[timber nimbus]

like i don't expect a cs pro to jump into valorant and know what to do when he gets dumped with 50 util and has no where to move lol

[cedar slate]

i've seen people that have been like faceit lvl9 and could barley get out of diamond-ascendant on val

[timber nimbus]

he could aim well and do well like that, but if it comes down to util usage and understanding it's going to be a different game that has to be learnt

same with a valorant player going to cs where different strats and things have to be learnt

[cedar slate]

there's a lot of t1 pros with incredible aim that still underperform in val. theres just a lot more to the game

yay for instance

yay used to have some of the best valo aim probably ever

[lucid trout]

Also biggest issue of valorant not alot of tournaments

[cedar slate]

and now he can barely perform consistently

[timber nimbus]

he was on a comeback in playoffs at least, so hopefully he can hold his form when they return next split

[cedar slate]

hopefully

[lucid trout]

Who you are talking about?

[cedar slate]

yay

[tropic relic]

The current claims are absurd, yes. However, the goal is not. Distance = time. Here’s a highly informative research paper on it backed up by heaps of evidence:

[wooden bluff]

bro using chatgpt to do math 💀

[tropic relic]

I don’t exactly have the means to measure how fast a finger releases a key on average. (rent free also)

[sinful plover]

nah but using chatgpt to do math is 100% cooked

[tropic relic]

bro 😭

[grim glen]

i mean how do you know chatgpt knows this accurately and isnt hallucinating it or using wrong info

[tropic relic]

Because it’s a highly informative research paper backed up by heaps of evidence, obviously.

The accuracy here doesn’t really matter. Some people are of opinion that because a human can’t feel the difference between 0.1 and 0.01 that it therefore has no effect, which isn’t true..

So the numbers ChatGPT stated are off, for sure. It does explain the goal behind min-maxing a bit more though.

[hasty schooner]

what is the difference with the 60HE+ and v2?

[inner tartan]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1372898933734379611/1373034267986104441/60hev2-faq.jpg?ex=682f88cf&is=682e374f&hm=56229c953551388bfff8f28ceb0dfd419d65d0b0ac84e2169f3d4e62e0ee83f9&

[hasty schooner]

Nice, it sounds way better

[spring stirrup]

Yeah, much better stock experience 👍

[dusty sundial]

Excited for the first computex content creator videos to appear

[lucid trout]

They already exist

[dusty sundial]

Of our booth? Should we be prepared to get analyzed

[lucid trout]

Yes but it is in turkish

Ngl such a downgrade

Last year booth was bigger

[lucid trout]

Other than nice display of every part in 60he v2 and knob there is nothing interesting

I hope so i'am not memed on company slack

[rotund lotus]

Don't worry we meme on you to your face not behind your back

[lucid trout]

Ok raw meat man

Atleast raclette tries to be funny

[rotund lotus]

Damn, got cooked

[spring stirrup]

[lucid trout]

Atleast you are cooked now, but meat man you still you have time to learn

Oh fuck forgot to turn of ping

[winged rover]

Why does CZ do this to me, they drop a Ported P10C without telling anybody

https://tenor.com/view/long-tears-gif-11087877242190144149

Now I gotta pay like $300 for some professional to cut it for me

Maybe like $150 and upward to $300 but still

[frigid lily]

What is the name of this key switch?

[hardy wadi]

iirc correctly its early test samples of the tikken switch

thats the 60v2 video correct?

[devout violet]

Is the 60HE v2 cable black and yellow C to C with a C to A low profile adapter?

similar to 80HE

[civic pewter]

When can I order the 60V2?

[whole oak]

Sometime closer to the Q4 release date.

[civic pewter]

Thanks Mansen

@whole oak No founders' campaign for 60V2,right?

[devout violet]

nope

just order when available!

similar to other wooting products it's not drops

it's batches

[civic pewter]

okok

thanks

[devout violet]

so you can order whenever without any fomo which I love

[short hare]

though we dont have any details on the matter yet so

[devout violet]

^

[short hare]

https://youtu.be/ytX7HjFKZCo?si=NX3bDFZdMWOdLd9u&t=466

[whole oak]

Bing chilling

[oblique pendant]

calling it v3

naisu

[whole oak]

Tikken is not a Lekker "V3", but a new and fresh take on our switches.

[lapis birch]

Not Lekker v3 but Lekker :3

[sinful plover]

lekker <3

[lapis birch]

lickyticky

[short hare]

[raw herald]

Laika

[sullen bear]

When did Mansen become so Mansen

[whole oak]

Years and years of intense shitposting and training in the mystic arts of moderation.

[lucid trout]

I didnt know jeoren got hair upgrade

[candid solar]

Finalmeme would be appalled

[spring drum]

This has probably been asked already, but do you figure the v2 will be compatible with the alumaze case? hope to be able to only get the module of the v2

[candid solar]

Yeah it will be

[opaque depot]

what does tikken mean

why tikken and not lekker v3

[inner tartan]

It's a whole new switch design from the Lekker V1 and V2. Not just an iteration update

[oblique pendant]

naisu

[opaque depot]

I looked up tikken in dutch and the word seems to mean a ticking sound or so

[oblique pendant]

just happy to see 4mm switch that's as good/better than ti hee

[opaque depot]

odd to pick an undesirable sound characteristic to rep the switch

[devout violet]

frfr

[tropic relic]

Tikken is more of a verb which commonly results in a ticking sound so it kind of means both. Lekker Tikken means something like Nicely Tapping, rather than Nice Ticks.

[short hare]

[timber blaze]

this lowkey might be fire for the bunny hoppers that wanna use their mouse scroll wheel for other things

[quaint schooner]

is the wooting 60he v2 gonna have a white version?

[whole oak]

Black, White, Silver.

[quaint schooner]

so i can choose for it to come fully white pre assembled ?

[whole oak]

No clue.

It's just a case of putting it into the case, if it's only sold as a separate case.

[quaint schooner]

if its pre assembled then wooting can just take my money already

[whole oak]

After all the module isn't screwed in. It's just pushed into the case and held by friction. You just pull it up with the tool to get it up.

[quaint schooner]

and then push it back down on the separate case?

if so then that sounds easy and I will just do that

[inner tartan]

That's exactly how you do it.

[whole oak]

https://youtu.be/Y1ME0n9xe5o?si=pKgdeI6nYXVKW-EP&t=101
Calder shows it here.

(Click the link, it's timestamped. Discord doesn't read those)

[opaque depot]

did for me

[dusty sundial]

White and black pre-build. Silver is a separate case 🙂

[hardy wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-meme-i-need-it-i-don’t-need-it-i-definitely-don’t-need-it-thirsty-gif-17101453146721253330

me looking at 60v2 when i already own 60he+

[lone sail]

thats so real lmao

[quaint schooner]

awesome

[quaint schooner]

I know that the cost of the v2 is not official in any way yet but do you know if the white version would cost more than the black?

[spring stirrup]

<@&1098943457654997093>

[bitter osprey]

wait shi my fault can yuh not say dat

?

[terse cape]

Guess not if it was removed xD

[spring stirrup]

No comment

[burnt shale]

cant believe yall ruined his excitement like that /s

[worn slate]

Is there a date yet?

To order?

[terse cape]

Nope

Won't be for a while with it being in Q4

[short cosmos]

End of this year

[latent lark]

Lekker Tikken will be compatible with Lekker Spring Pack ?

[quaint schooner]

yes king

[wooden bluff]

if we didn't care about keycap compatibility and stuff like that, this here would be best 60% kb for gaming and overall. Notice more centralized and convenient (for thumbs) Alt placements.
More accessible and nice Backspace - which also opens up for a Knob space in top right corner.
Very nice Ctrl that is good for both WASD and ESDF/homerow.

[oblique pendant]

I see this as someone DIY product rather than a mass market product.

[wooden bluff]

but again, this is variant #2, you already have normal wooting, variant #2 is for innovation, in layout functionality and comfort.
because so far the cart has been put before the horse with the standard conventional not-very-gaming-and-overall-friendly layouts.

someone has to actually be the first to take these steps, we can't be stuck with this antiquated less comfortable layout forever. (ergo-ortho would be too big step, and it already exists - the goal is more to change standard layouts, those that will just forever have monopoly maybe if nothing is done).
even custom layouts rarely try to do this, and definitely not from big companies.

[timber nimbus]

https://tenor.com/view/homer-simpsons-car-gif-8120474

[oblique pendant]

Yeh, you should make it even with just mech keeb as a proof of concept.

Wooting is prop too busy with the making sure 60hev2 can be produced well and the firmware stuff + knob and firmware stuff along with that.

[wooden bluff]

place your hands on homerow right now, notice how annoying it is to bend thumbs to reach Alts (+think of shortcuts), and notice how annoying it is to reach LCtrl - and this is ofc much worse ESDF gaming.
imagine almost no one has done anything about it for many decades, in any serious way (excluding ergo-ortho)

[spring stirrup]

Yeah, they are too busy, wont make this abomination

[oblique pendant]

I dont do homerow typing

I just make my finger go everywhere it wants to go while typing since it gives the same sensation as playing rhythm game.

also allow my brain to focus more on making the sentences.

[sinful plover]

4u space

people talking about how they want 7u and this man wants the opposite

[oblique pendant]

I want split spacebar

and numpad

[wooden bluff]

you don't need split and middle key and backspace as right space - with that more perfect layout you will reach Alt much better, use that as you would middle key, and Backspace is closer, so don't need that either as much.
you will have better caps lock binding for gaming, that is not annoyingly caps lock.

[oblique pendant]

No, I'm speaking this with rhythm game in mind, current 60hev2 perfectly aligned with where my finger is when doing split.

[tropic relic]

He adopted the 64% shift row offset, we’re getting there!

https://tenor.com/view/me-atrapaste-es-cine-its-cinema-cinema-esto-es-cine-gif-12869046600151364058

[raw herald]

Careful, when you reach the summit and realize there are no more hills to climb it can be depressing

[tropic relic]

The layout summit is just one of three. The other two, performance and features, demand even greater determination and are far more challenging to conquer. With layout behind them, they can shift their pursuit of perfection toward the summits that truly matter.

[burnt shale]

0.00001 RT LFG

[tropic relic]

https://tenor.com/view/panda-wise-gif-4804904432708355937

[opaque depot]

it's 2158, with humanity having been mostly wiped out in the great potato wars of 2094, small isolated pockets of humanity cling to life as best they can, barely managing to feed their colony, cultivating what little arable land remains. aligner and mb are still going on about layouts and spacebars

[night anchor]

Two big knobs in row😦

[tropic relic]

[night anchor]

48 small knobs

https://tenor.com/view/nose-candy-gif-27003611

[tropic relic]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1226077523616600106/1357808679163793640/abnaj.gif

[reef horizon]

RIGBY

[lapis birch]

HE IS STILL AT IT?
Mate, gimme some of your stuff

Like... I though 4u spacebar is bad, sure
What the hell is that Ctrl though

[opaque depot]

the answer lies on consciousness level 7

manabanker's been there for years already

[oblique pendant]

He isn't constrained by the limit of manufacturing

[lapis birch]

It's not even that...
Like... imagine getting keycaps for that
Or expecting that anyone would actually take time to learn new layout

[oblique pendant]

I mean, could be fine if there's like 300 different layout

Apple makes a new one every mac, gaming company makes a new one for every release, and every Chinese company just make their own to suit Chinese and manu a different one for every language that can be conceived by the keyboard.

[opaque depot]

the worst part is that the actual answer to what mb is trying to solve with this layout already exists: you don't want a standard formfactor or even necessarily standard keys? you want to place keys at the most optimal and ergonomic position?

that's called an ergo keyboard

go build a dactyl manuform and be hapi

[oblique pendant]

Then wooting will just make something erely close to ansi, still no 7u though.

Or like there's a special strip of sensor lane and it allows you to make any layout possible.

[tropic relic]

he’s already an ergo user, though this is he optimal gaming layout.

which requires analog features of course.

[tropic relic]

7u wouldn’t be controversial enough for woot, obviously. a layout that broke the “rules” they previously had was necessary. 🥰

[tropic relic]

just multi-layout support, that’s where HE shines man 😭

[winter cedar]

you are missing the biggest point. middle key to enter layers and add actions to space bar (or even more layers)

https://tenor.com/view/alice-rabbithole-falling-tumbling-bye-gif-5308157

[winter cedar]

I swear I was going to say this was an RoG because of the Take CONTROL (you dont need such a big ass CTRL Key) . Nobody uses it 😛

CTRL Key is mapped to the most useless key a Keyboard has ...
CAPS

emulating HHKB

[wooden bluff]

no you do need this big Ctrl, because if you test now even with WASD placement, you don't actually naturally reach Ctrl, also ofc very needed for ESDF layout in gaming (which is like a superior layout overall - just that it has received little support so far).

[winter cedar]

ESDF or WASD is just placebo. its only 1U ot the right. its still staggered

and CTRL is mapped to CAPS so no pinky contortionism 🙂

IMHO before folks try to edit-change keyboard layouts, try alternative stagegred layouts first

there is so much more to start with first.. like Colemak DH or Halmak

then try columnar (split or not) keyboards . but word of caution: there may be no turning back (hence the reason why I am hesitant) 😄

Long story short: it is useless for folks be discussing ergo and efficiency when they still use QWERTY ...

[wooden bluff]

concave ergo is really where it's at though, like Glove80, just not suitable for gaming really.
but i'm trying to fix conventional layout though. because also conversion for people from standard to ergo is too steep often I guess, also in price.

[winter cedar]

Yeah, my biggest gripe is that there is no HE keyboard live Glove 80, Korne, Voyager or even Defy

if there was, I'd pull the trigger

[winter cedar]

Yes, folks should try different layouts first. They won't believe the difference that alone makes

[wooden bluff]

tbh Glove80 isn't even that expensive overall, costs the same as OW60 lol

[winter cedar]

I'd never buy the OW60 . .there are limits 😄

if the Defy was HE, I would have bought 2, fully decked

then the OW60 is cheap in comparison LOL

[wooden bluff]

reason why so few do concave I guess is just how hard it is overall to do. like first often hard to do mold itself, then like very hard or time consuming to do pcb parts, many separated parts etc. (and then it can't really be hotswappable, because this pcb is like not attached well enough for it or something).

[winter cedar]

Yeah, it will never be mainstream

and folks still report isses with those

and when a switch fails, uuhhh

[wooden bluff]

nah, Glove80 is solid though. if switch fails? you can pretty easily solder a new etc, just need soldering kit.

no but why would a switch fail, that's not Glove80 at least.

[winter cedar]

a regular user won't have soldering skills 😄

GLove 80 is not hotswap 😄

[wooden bluff]

for stuff like that though you don't need much skills. there is no technique to this really.

[winter cedar]

there is, trust me. an unskilleduser will rip the pads/traces easy with overheat

you need a desoldering gun

even for 'old' keyboards that I haven't millmaxed, if I'm not careful, I can kill a PCB (specially the Corsair PCBs)

and I'm skilled on nano soldering and have JBC workstations

its easy to kill a keyboard when folks dont know what they are doing

[timber nimbus]

I like that all these suggestions just ignore how horrendously bad it typically is to launch a product that would require customers to educate and relearn how they type on a keyboard vs how they currently use a keyboard

Its catering to such an incredibly small niche of people who would be willing to meet those requirements

[wooden bluff]

it's only a few keys that are not even used often. the 0.25 row shift should be pretty manageable to learn.
current split you also have to relearn Backspace binding on right space, because that's the only good use for it (much more used than those keys). Another good use for middle key is have Shift there (also often used) - but this is also relearning etc.

[timber nimbus]

realistically most folks are binding game things to their split space (if they go split space)

eg right space becomes a map pullup key in valorant for example

or a ping command etc

they're not really thinking about typing binds there

that's honestly the big disconnect with a lot of these layout requests people are asking about - the reason wooting is doing their specific split spacebar is likely gaming related for extra game binds more so than some ergonomic typing reason

[wooden bluff]

they wouldn't have to bind anything there, if they used ESDF - then you get just more keys on the left side, and also with mine nicer Ctrl useage and also Alt, etc.

[timber nimbus]

the entire point is they want to bind things there.

it's nice to have another easily pressable key to bind in game things to without changing their normal usage

[wooden bluff]

spacebar should be placed in the middle and just be a solid piece, not split up and also then inhibiting both-thumb space usage.

using ESDF you get like 4 extra keys on the left side, 2 very accessible keys.

[timber nimbus]

convincing a ton of people to change from wasd gaming is never going to happen, especially the ones who have gotten used to using left ctrl with pinky

[wooden bluff]

did you see my layout, you can pretty easily use left Ctrl with pinky, with ESDF

[timber nimbus]

nah that's super awkward for ctrl pinky users

i assume you're not a ctrl pinky presser?

[wooden bluff]

everyone is a ctrl pinky presser what are you talking about

[timber nimbus]

no i meant like wasd ctrl pinky press

because doing it the same way as wasd position while being over esdf is not doable at all

aka the way all the fps players who use ctrl to crouch press it

[wooden bluff]

it is with that layout shown above

[timber nimbus]

no i'm telling you i'm literally trying to position over esdf right now and press where your layout would have ctrl and it hurts

it's super awkward and my curled pinky can't press it

if you're a wasd ctrl presser it's not usable

[wooden bluff]

it's 1u bigger than previous, the shift to esdf is 1u. so it works - when gaming ofc you would move kb 1u more to the left than usual (and also means 1u more mouse space).

[timber nimbus]

i'm literally telling you it doesn't work

do you need a photo

[wooden bluff]

you're wrong lmao

[timber nimbus]

?? my hand is wrong

[wooden bluff]

read the facts again

[timber nimbus]

it's super awkward and you can't push your curled pinky left further to reach it comfortably

[wooden bluff]

who are you trying to fool, read the facts again.

[timber nimbus]

i don't know why you think i'm trying to fool you about a literal physical movement that is photographed above lol

you cannot curl pinky press that key to match because you'd be on the awkward edge of your layout and it's super uncomfortable

[wooden bluff]

yes, for very centered homerow position - from which no one games - it's a bit worse - everyone MOVES their kb to the left when gaming, are you serious.

to the left or rotates it

[timber nimbus]

my keyboard is literally left

i'm not trying to cheat you of anything here. I think you just literally don't press ctrl with curled pinky if you think your layout is comfortable on esdf positioning

you'd have to slightly uncurl pinky to kind of stretch and reach the ctrl press

[wooden bluff]

you're very disingenuous, it's insane, who are you fooling you think? read the facts again - your issue would be literally the same using current Ctrl with WASD.

[timber nimbus]

?? do you think i'm making up this pinky press ctrl thing?

[wooden bluff]

yes, you're lying deliberately, gaslighting etc

[timber nimbus]

whelp i give up. I guess every fps player is lying to you lol

it's very clear now you do not use wasd + curled pinky press that a lot of fps players position in

[wooden bluff]

read the facts again, or learn to read first I guess

[timber nimbus]

you realize pressing it on the edge there is not comfortable at all right?

in the photo i showed my pinky is literally at the edge of where your new ctrl key would be

which is really not comfy

like i'd have to maybe change the spring to be super light to make pressing it like that comfortable

[clever delta]

https://tenor.com/view/thinking-pepe-think-pepe-the-frog-wojak-gif-13571840648507225174

[timber nimbus]

it's insane that you think i'm trying to gaslight you lol

this is how fps players press ctrl and shift, with that curled pinky

[devout violet]

hopefully my friends 80HE isnt lost, i think westjet messed up our luggage 😭

[wooden bluff]

read the facts until you understand it

[timber nimbus]

alright whatever i tried to explain, you're in your "everyone who disagrees is lying or using keyboard wrong" thing even with literal video showing the issue

[wooden bluff]

you just showed everyone what kind of bad faith, disingenuous person you are (but most here probably already knew).

[timber nimbus]

???

this entire conversation reads as someone who clearly doesn't press ctrl with curled pinky trying to tell people who do that they should just do it a different way and feel comfortable with it

[wooden bluff]

mods, timeout this disingenuous gaslighter

[timber nimbus]

who are all these people you keep talking to that are supposedly agreeing with you?

[slender plank]

tf happened?

[rotund lotus]

You are welcome to share opinions and perspectives. You are NOT welcome to attack community members who are merely engaging in your thought experiment.

[wooden bluff]

i didn't attack, i stated exactly what he did. after telling him the facts many times.

[oblique pendant]

I tried to do what Sno did myself and found it hard to also press ctrls. Even if I try to make sure it's position is the same as using WASD

[wooden bluff]

you have to bully the bullies, that's the only way

[rotund lotus]

This is not a discussion, this is a moderation action being taken in the form of a direct warning. If you cannot abide by it, then further escalatory moderation actions will be taken.

[tropic relic]

I think 2.25U Control is ridiculous for anyone not using ESDF but I do not understand how a 1u increase in Control width and a 1u offset in hand position results in any uncomfertabilties.

[wooden bluff]

that's not ridiculous, it also helps wasd users to use ctrl more comfortably.

anyway moving on

[tropic relic]

I think mana argues that in the ESDF position (with a 2.25u wide control), it would be the same as in the WASD position (with a 1.25u control).

[timber nimbus]

it's mostly the very slight different tilt and pinky curl that makes it awkward mostly

basically a lot of us fps gamers have been used to a very specific awkward way to pressing shift and ctrl and changing it even slightly is really uncomfortable

[wooden bluff]

you don't game in homerow centralized position, what are you talking about (and even in homerow, this is not even correct, or has enough weight)

[timber nimbus]

I don't know what to tell you, ask most fps players to do it and they'll tell you it feels uncomfortable and they have to strain a little

[tropic relic]

I try to understand where you’re coming from but it doesn’t really make sense. Is this caused by the physical location of your board? So if you moved it over to the left, this wouldn’t be the case anymore?

[wooden bluff]

you either move kb to the left, rotate it, or do some combination of both, when you game.

[timber nimbus]

it's cause you press on a different spot so the leverage is different to how you normally press ctrl

you could potentially get used to it over a long period of time, but because you're so trained to press a certain way it's awkward and uncomfy

you have to bend things just slightly different

the big thing is keeping fingers on esdf at same time as you press it makes it feel weird

[tropic relic]

If that is the case, maybe it’s caused by the position of your hand. You shouldn’t feel a difference between WASD and ESDF.

[timber nimbus]

it's the pressure of the key and pressing it on the right side of a longer key, it feels off and straining basically

i think this is one of those things you probably have to be someone who does it to understand, since to a non curled pinky person they probably see both as equally awkward looking

[opaque depot]

i think it's weird to argue on someone else's behalf, I just know how I press the keys

[tropic relic]

I’ll try it in a bit. At least in theory, I have no clue how this would have any effect at all but I haven’t used ESDF in ages. I’m also a curled pinky guy.

[opaque depot]

goes for all of you and especially mb arguing that one way of using the keyboard is objectively correct based on arbitrary reasoning stemming from nothing but his own experience

[tropic relic]

I argue the same thing, not objectively correct but more common way to use split spaces. 🥴

[timber nimbus]

like fleimi, I feel any layout that basically relies on forcing someone to change how they want to comfortably use the keyboard is kind of a nonstarter

you can't just say "You're using it wrong, use it my way!" to get people to follow a certain layout

people are going to use it how they want to use it

[tropic relic]

I agree so much that I’ve argued from the first time seeing the 60HE v2 (split) that it falls directly under that.

[devout violet]

ah idk, something to do with westjet labor and stuff its complicated

[timber nimbus]

i get where you're coming from, i think most folks just disagree with your one because they're not ergonomical typers

so for average person they just see "oh wootings split doesn't really change how I position normally and I get 1-2 extra keys on space where I normally don't press"

[tropic relic]

If the goal was solely gaming, they would’ve went 64%. It seems to me like an oversight that most people that want to use the right space with their right thumb are probably going to miss.

[timber nimbus]

i think 64% is a whole different topic and debate

[tropic relic]

Saying people will use their left thumb to press the right spacebar is kind of unrealistic and a bad argument imo.

[opaque depot]

i look at split spacebar keebs on google images and it's a tossup whether it's long-short, short-long, or even-even splits

arguing one is more common than the other is not really true either

[timber nimbus]

i think you're underestimating how many people aren't ergonomical perfect form typers

[opaque depot]

yeah given you're the only one along with mb that care about this split, doesn't seem very common to me at all

[tropic relic]

It is very and there are different ways splits work. The split spaces that start with a long 2.75U> space first, don’t offer a third button for your thumb and keep it ergonomic for your right thumb as well.

[devout violet]

what is a 64% board

[opaque depot]

well I just looked at the evidence

short search shows there's no "more common" layout here

it's just whatever each manufacturer decided to make

[tropic relic]

You don’t understand how split spacebars work, they aren’t all the same and they function different purposes each.

Woot’s split, does not exist.

[timber nimbus]

the main disconnect is aligner believes the right thumb users is more important/bigger than the gamers who aren't and who prefer wootings version for gaming

[tropic relic]

2.75U - 2.25U - 1.25U exists and is perfectly ergonomic because the right thumb presses the 2.25U spacebar (so this split doesn’t offer a third gaming button).

[devout violet]

i personally like the split 60HE v2 the way it is, works super well for how i plan on using it

[tropic relic]

I don’t believe they’re more important at all. I don’t think everyone that wants to use the right spacebar with their right thumb shouldn’t be considered though. It’s a complete oversight that I strongly believe people will miss.

[opaque depot]

the wooting split does exist given I see keyboards with that split on google images

[timber nimbus]

one side is going to be slightly awkward regardless of which split version you use

either right thumb users or gamers who like the bigger left side

wooting just picked the one that gamers tend to prefer - that's how I see it

[opaque depot]

that's how I see it as well

[tropic relic]

DZ60 perhaps, though that is a board that’d even support mana’s layout.

[tropic relic]

This isn’t based on anything. The only three gaming boards with split spaces have a 2.25U left space.

[opaque depot]

your argument is also not based on anything except "i feel this way"

nobody else has come forward with an opinion that it's bad

[timber nimbus]

i think you're getting a bit overly into the "this layout didn't exist before therefore it's not going to be liked or preferred" - which isn't necessarily true

[opaque depot]

so it's just you until proven otherwise

[timber nimbus]

the non popularity or lack of existence of something doesn't equal proof that it'll be unpopular or not preferred later

[tropic relic]

My argument is based on ergonomics, on which boards exist and how the human hand works brotherman. 😭

[opaque depot]

you don't have an argument for ergonomics though

[opaque depot]

the same argument that says more room for right thumb takes space away from left thumb when gaming

[timber nimbus]

we are just trying to explain that a lot of gamers don't care about 2 handed ergonomics in their gaming keyboard over something that works better for their wasd gaming

[opaque depot]

therefore it's one pro for and one con against === not an argument towards either side

[tropic relic]

The argument for ergonomics is perfectly clear. Which is why one exists and not the other.

[timber nimbus]

there's a bit of a logical leap there though

one exists and another doesn't isn't proof

[opaque depot]

yes it's a gaming keyboard so gaming comfort would be preferable over optimal typing comfort

[winter cedar]

Wooting didn't invent the split layout and burned 100k on the keycaps molds. This split space design already exists. There are also keycaps that will fit it. Check keychron q10 , q13 and q14

[tropic relic]

There’s no argument it objectively works better for WASD, the opposite could be said though.

[timber nimbus]

his thing is a whole different thing - he's saying wooting invented the 2.75u left side version

[opaque depot]

yes there is, more room for thumb to accommodate more natural positions

[timber nimbus]

i mean it just comes down to aligner uses his keyboard more in that ergonomic 2 handed typer position and wants that more popular ergonomic split

[opaque depot]

that would be fine but he argues so does everyone else, for some reason

[timber nimbus]

yeah that part is where everyone is disagreeing

[tropic relic]

I haven’t seen anyone that complained about the gaming boards with 2.25U on the left side. I’d argue the 2.75U split forces the middle key further away and thus more difficult to reach comfortably.

[timber nimbus]

but you just said it didn't exist before so how would gamers find and argue for such a niche thing that they barely even know exists before this

[tropic relic]

Because there are facts behind everything, again:

[timber nimbus]

that's the whole thing - your evidence is that it didn't exist and people didn't talk about it before so it doesn't matter, but that isn't necessarily true

it could easily just be that gamers barely knew it existed and that the crowd that might be interested in trying or using split spacebars before were heavily in the ergonomic crowd

[tropic relic]

I’m saying, this already niche split fucks over a group of people making it even more niche when this is a split that didn’t exist before (meaning, if this split was popular enough or too many people found the 2.25U split tol uncomfortable, it would exist already).

[winter cedar]

Ngl, but personally, for gaming, if I go down the split space bar, I honestly don't care which space bar size is on the left. Either is easily reachable

[opaque depot]

yeah point is nobody else but aligner cares

[timber nimbus]

yeah and no one is saying it doesn't screw you over a bit. Just that there is a crowd of people who it doesn't screw over as well

[tropic relic]

For that reason, one group should be more considered than the other.

[winter cedar]

For typing, that's a whole different story

[timber nimbus]

see that's the disconnect right there. Your evidence for one group being more important is sketchy

[tropic relic]

Not just me, again, everyone that wants to use the right spacebar with their right thumb.

[timber nimbus]

yes you and everyone who wants to use the right spacebar with their right thumb

none of us are debating that for you

[tropic relic]

Very few here have used split spacebars so that’s expected.

[timber nimbus]

we agree

[tropic relic]

Good.

[timber nimbus]

we're just saying that we don't agree with your analysis that your group of foks is more important than the gaming group of folks who don't use it that way

[tropic relic]

You’re saying wooting should fuck those people, the people that want 2.75U are a majority. Right?

[timber nimbus]

not necessarily the majority in the world, but the majority in gaming i'd wager

and yes, that's what we're saying

[tropic relic]

It’s not the gaming folk, again, three very popular HE gaming boards with 2.25U split already exist and have for quite a while.

[timber nimbus]

have you seen the type of people buying those 3 very popular he gaming boards

it's literally the niche of people that heavily overlap with the ergonomic and mx custom crowd

[tropic relic]

I’ve seen people like, positive feedback and posts on twitter.

[timber nimbus]

sure, none of us are debating that it's popular with a particular niche

your niche

[tropic relic]

It’s everyone. I’m saying the 2.75U people are the few, so few in fact that they don’t have a board.

[timber nimbus]

that's the leap that no one here is agreeing with

[tropic relic]

Both for gaming and for ergonomics.

[timber nimbus]

for the most part split and other layout boards were made for a very specific crowd of people, not really your average gamer, so the existence of those boards isn't proof or non proof in my eyes - it's just companies saying "oh this crowd of folks want this"

something not existing doesn't mean it wouldn't be preferred or liked once it does exist

it just means products were made based on specific target customer demographics previously

[tropic relic]

Okay, if someone were to take full advantage of their split space board, would they be using the right spacebar with their right thumb or not really.

Just want to see where you’re coming from.

[whole oak]

People use their right thumb for typing?

[timber nimbus]

not really. Maybe occasionally while typing but a lot of people aren't ergonomic right thumb users

[tropic relic]

This I agree with if it didn’t conflict with any ergonomics.

[grim glen]

people use their fingers? ive been translating thoughts into text for ages now

[tropic relic]

Only a few people or many?

[rotund lotus]

Vibe coding via neural link

[grim glen]

hell yeah

[timber nimbus]

i should specify i'm talking about the average gamer btw in my reply, not someone who is min/maxing ergonomic typing

[whole oak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvD7DGmsq0E

[grim glen]

i mean isnt a split keyboard heaps better at that already anyway?

[timber nimbus]

yep it is

[sinful plover]

I use my knuckles to type

My nose sometimes

[timber nimbus]

i think the whole disconnect is aligner is a min/maxing ergonomic typer and to him it's a no brainer that ergonomics should be the major concern

whereas a lot of gamers aren't in that demo and don't care and would probably just pick whatever is comfier while wasd gaming

[tropic relic]

Catering to the 0.5U increase people while fucking over right space users is making the niche more niche.

[timber nimbus]

that's where we are disagreeing with you

[tropic relic]

If ergonomics weren’t of concern, just “gaming” they would’ve went with 64%.

[timber nimbus]

we need to drop the 64% thing because that's a whole different debate and topic

stick to one thing at a time

[wooden bluff]

always remember that this is a Variant #2 - there already will be a standard kb for gaming etc. This second variant could be much more wild and unorthodox if Wooting wanted.

[tropic relic]

If you can fuck over right space users, what’s the issue with right shift users?

[timber nimbus]

that's the opposite of how wooting has operated though. In fact the whole 60he+ was because they wanted to consolidate their pcb wasn't it

[timber nimbus]

again - much more complicated things to talk about re: product development etc than just this one issue so let's not jump topics

[wooden bluff]

there could be Variant #2 with just 1 sku (ansiso, non-flex), but different keycaps, good marketing etc.

[tropic relic]

It points to what they didn’t consider. I think the same happened with the split.

[rotund lotus]

Your suggestion to appease everyone is to take a business risk and make it twice as risky? Wat

[wooden bluff]

it would just be a cool product, and unique, I just bet many would like it because of that.

[timber nimbus]

i think it's really stretching now to try find equivalent arguments across very complicated things and there's no point debating that topic

you're introducing a million other factors that would go into a different keyboard when trying to equal out those 2 decisions

[tropic relic]

There’s no argument 2.75U is objectively better than 2.25U for gaming, as I said, the opposite could be argued. So how they got to 2.75U to begin with is the question.

[tropic relic]

Just one. ;)

[timber nimbus]

yeah but none of us are arguing that topic with you

we agree, some people would prefer 2.25u (such as yourself and other right space users), just that wooting chose the 2.75u gaming crowd as their priority and we're okay with that

[tropic relic]

Very few would prefer 2.75U, (such as yourself). 2.25U has been around in the gaming space for over a year and has been very well received. There’s no need to change that by fucking over a group of people.

[timber nimbus]

yeah see that's the difference. I'm not trying to decide for your crowd of people how big they are or how important their crwod is

[tropic relic]

you’re seriously arguing that a split that doesn’t exist, a split that isn’t requested commonly or at all even, is more popular than something that already exists and is already well received.

[timber nimbus]

no i'm saying it can be preferred, not that it's more popular as of this moment

very different things

the existence of a thing or it being popular does not equal something else not able to become preferred

[tropic relic]

therefore woot should cater to the few by fucking over the many?

[timber nimbus]

again - you have not proved that this crowd is 'the few'

that's what you keep jumping over

[tropic relic]

that’s if you only consider people that use solely left shift to begin with though.

[wooden bluff]

no the thing is aligner - Spacebar is like most commonly and naturally used by left thumb - and it makes just sense to have this be bigger and more accessible than the other right space and having Backspace on it. for me it's still really not enough incentive to get it.
but it's true that 2.25 left would be better for gaming (wasd). many people I guess have not that big hands, teenagers, women etc (not moving the wrist while reaching middle key) (maybe still fine idk).

[tropic relic]

if people want to use it for typing and want to take advantage of it, they can’t with the 60HE v2 (split).

[rotund lotus]

The right side hasn't changed at all. The left side was enlarged at the expense of the center key. So I don't understand where you're coming from at all

[timber nimbus]

i don't want to alarm you but oner just smite stole the dragon soul in the t1 vs dnf game 2 to keep t1 in the game. Okay continue discussion now

[blissful anvil]

Right thumb spacebar user here, didn't know that was uncommon.

[gray violet]

Seems like the opinions are a bit split on this

[tropic relic]

That’s because you don’t understand what the size changes entail. The spacebar isn’t centered to begin with so the thing that matters for typing, is overhang rather than width.

[blissful anvil]

Also a bit bummed that my thumb will land pretty much right between center and right space with this layout

[wooden bluff]

it's for sure more uncommon and also like you can press it while having right hand on mouse.

[blissful anvil]

While typing not gaming

[fiery beacon]

FWIW I've been using the 60HE v2 split for typing and had no issues using my left and right thumb for typing

[tropic relic]

You’ll adjust really fast ~ Calder

[timber nimbus]

i mean - it really depends on how he presses right space too

if he presses on the right side of the key more then it changes nothing for him, just depends on his typing style

[tropic relic]

Right, the natural position of your thumb is directly below your index finger!

[timber nimbus]

yep, look we've kind of gone full circle now. The bottom line is aligner believes wootings version didn't exist before and that is proof it will not be preferred or popular, that's about it i think?

[blissful anvil]

Don't get me wrong I'm gonna buy it, cannonkeys cxa sets come with domed space bars in those 3 sizes so if worst comes to worst I'll just set em all up as spacebar in a typing profile or disable one that causes double presses but I can see an argument for a more ergonomic setup.

[timber nimbus]

wait in bigger news t1 just won the dragon fight after dnf got the hextech soul and t1 might just have gone 2-0 to potentially take 2nd seed if they beat hle next week

[wooden bluff]

it's not that hard to start using left thumb for space across kbs (but most even use both thumbs, so transition won't be that big).

[tropic relic]

The split is unergonomic, fucks over right space users and didn’t exist before. On the other hand 2.25U has been used and well received for HE gaming keyboards for over a year. That’s my point worded properly.

[timber nimbus]

yep so basically you don't believe that it could be preferred or popular whereas some of us disagree with you on that point

[grim glen]

doesnt that also means any size except non split is unergonomic for right or left thumb users if they have longer thumbs? so concluding from that its best to just never split the spacebar

[tropic relic]

I do believe it could be preferred by people, I don’t believe that niche is worth fucking over people that I know for a fact exist many of.

[fiery beacon]

It didn't fuck over me 🤷

[blissful anvil]

Well I mean clearly Wooting didn't invent it

[fiery beacon]

Omg it already exists so it must be good

[dusty sundial]

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxvbHGD7nHmH8Jd6aRZchxXFp_1mKWwxnL?si=AgeOBoUUmBpPLaIs

[timber nimbus]

i mean it's basically what fleimi said. You think the way you use the keyboard is more important than the other group

whereas bunch of us don't think that's true

[tropic relic]

That’s a board I haven’t seen before, do you know the name of it?

[blissful anvil]

KBD75v2

[tropic relic]

I don’t think the way I use my keyboard is more important. I see all the people using one of three very popular split space gaming keyboards and having no problem with the split whatsoever.

[blissful anvil]

By kbdfans

[rotund lotus]

What's most important is that we can all agree that ANSI > ISO

[timber nimbus]

a lot of neat things that people like now wouldn't exist if you make products only based on what catored to previous niches

[dusty sundial]

I saw Wasabi using our split space v2 having no issue at all

[blissful anvil]

Oh people are looking for arguments here lol

[tropic relic]

If he was a right space user, what would his opinion be?

[fiery beacon]

ISO gang rise up

[gray violet]

7u best

[wooden bluff]

keep current layout - but at least include some special keycap for current Backspace (because right space will become new Backspace for most, then having this wrong legend on current Backspace is not great).
(well I don't really overall endorse this layout, and probably won't get it, but at least good keycap support would make it more attractive)

[fiery beacon]

I guess I'm not a real right space user

[tropic relic]

You are but you aren’t many.

[timber nimbus]

i actually do press space on right side sometimes too when i type, but usually more on the right side so the split wouldn't bother me

[grim glen]

you arent many either now are you

[tropic relic]

It’s not really an argument of 2.25U on the right being unergonomic I think.

[tropic relic]

I’m not arguing what I prefer man.

[grim glen]

isnt that... even worse since youre arguing for the many then?

but you arent the many?

[tropic relic]

I’m arguing what exists and what is ergonomic.

[tropic relic]

Precisely, I think the many should be considered rather than the few.

👀

[oblique pendant]

yeh, gamers that want to primarily use their left thumb

[grim glen]

so by your own argument then: you arent the many nor are we

[tropic relic]

The many are the people that use 2.25U on the left side. The few are the people that use 2.75U on the left side.

[timber nimbus]

we keep jumping over the entire point that something not existing isn't proof that it won't be popular after it exists

[grim glen]

it exists tho? didnt someone just send images of the same split existing already?

[blissful anvil]

Do you go on mouse discords and complain when a left hand model is released? Complain that the clothes in the big and tall shop don't fit you? Everything isn't made for everyone, nor should it be, spend your energy finding what works for you and not complaining about what doesnt

[timber nimbus]

yeah he says it's too niche and not popular though so doesn't really count

[grim glen]

ah like the 80he layout

i get it now

[tropic relic]

I’m not arguing with that.

[gray violet]

Technically, you can also use 2.25 on the left

[timber nimbus]

but your entire point hinges on that fact - you said 'the few' over and over and over again with regards to gamers who might prefer wootings split

you kind of need to prove that it's true

[tropic relic]

The only people the 80HE fucked over were right control users.. 😭

[winter cedar]

OK, after some thoght while shaving :d here are my thoughts on the whole drama:
1 - yes, it is a fact that (generaly, for split space bar) the right one is the 2.75 one, to account for the extra lateral movement the right hand needs to perform to reach the additional staggered keys to the right of the keyboard

[wooden bluff]

my stance on it is - most use left thumb or at least both thumbs for space - so for them the transition will be easy.
- and those that don't use left thumb - it's also pretty easy for most of them to learn to use the superior left thumb (and also rebind your other potential kbs for this - it's just the best way - you just learned to use it the 'wrong' way before).

[winter cedar]

so your right thhumber will flex more on the 60HE v2

[wooden bluff]

a lot of troubles just comes from people not learning the best way to use kbs really - and they should for sure try to learn the right way, and it's not even that hard.

[tropic relic]

It doesn’t. Woot doesn’t not know how well 2.75U will do, nor does anyone. What we do know is how well 2.25U does and the reason why 2.25U is common whereas 2.75U is not.

[winter cedar]

but my question is: isn't the swith location centered on both sides? This way, users could chose which side to put the 2,25 and 2,75 space key caps

[tropic relic]

That is the whole reasoning.

[winter cedar]

0,5U of flex wont arm the caps

best of both worlds and everyone is happy

[tropic relic]

😭

[gray violet]

No

Well it is centered

[blissful anvil]

https://youtube.com/shorts/N8uFOYVK43g?si=MUq5k18HBhNXm8BB

[timber nimbus]

yeah but what we're all saying is there's a whole group of people who would potentially be happier and maybe even bigger in number than the existing crowd of split users who prefer your layout

[gray violet]

But the other keys will force the 2.75/2.25

[winter cedar]

why not make both space switches central to their relative position then?

[timber nimbus]

just because a specific demographic of split users such as yourself exist doesn't mean wooting should or needs to specifically cator to that niche over the other niche

but you're arguing for them to do so

[gray violet]

They are, but the other 1.25u keys will collide into them

[tropic relic]

So essentially gambling while fucking over a group of people making the split more niche in hopes it’ll be liked better?

[rotund lotus]

The whole split spacebar venture is a gamble, yes.

[winter cedar]

but if you are designing a split space for split space users....

[timber nimbus]

sure if you want to call it gambling

[candid stone]

I'll explore it :)

[timber nimbus]

yeah but they're not is the entire thing

[gray violet]

It was very pleasant to use; and I didn’t expect myself to like it

[tropic relic]

A double gamble.

[winter cedar]

do you regularly use split space bar keyboards?

[timber nimbus]

i have owned 4 yes

[tropic relic]

None that are 2.75U fyi.

[timber nimbus]

i didn't like them though because they didn't quite fit my usage that well

[winter cedar]

and the 60HE v2 split will ?

[timber nimbus]

yep

[winter cedar]

ok

[blissful anvil]

Wooting hall effect spacebar foot peddle will solve everything

[vast dagger]

The 12 people who already use split keyboards who are also into enthusiast gaming keyboard are going to be very upset

[devout violet]

also if anything I like how you can just get extra shift keys

[timber nimbus]

yeah that's what I'm not getting. it's not like the split spacebar gamer he enthusiast crowd is some giant niche

[tropic relic]

By buying a separate keycap set.. 💀

[winter cedar]

the split space bar has its merits. but for typing, not for gaming

[tropic relic]

They’re great for both. 🥰

[wooden bluff]

my problem is not even this split, it's just overall like "not gambling hard enough" - but you know like making it more 'feature-rich' - so then these many gambles become not really gambles, if also marketed good.

[winter cedar]

how is wootility going to sort both 'space bar presses' SOCD? thats cheating

[timber nimbus]

yeah exactly. The entire aligner vs rest argument here is that we're saying wooting made a version for gaming specifically and he thinks they should have made the current existing popular version instead

although 'popular' is a very vague word there because split spacebar, gaming, he crowd isn't exactly the largest niche of people like hopper pointed out

[winter cedar]

it owuld be great of someone from wooting can shed some light why they decided as is

[tropic relic]

popular as in 100% of the gaming HE boards.

[winter cedar]

marketing is also a justifiable answer tbh

[tropic relic]

They will.

[timber nimbus]

have to keep in mind the heavily into custom keyboard crowd were predicting wootings doom with the 80he layout too

[gray violet]

@floral sequoia

[tropic relic]

Probably.

[winter cedar]

I'm still waiting for a southpaw 100%

take my money!!!!

[rotund lotus]

If we're going to do something new and it must be a gamble regardless, then we're not going to waste our time on what the established convention is. We're well aware that most companies just follow the crowd. Instead, we'll make what we think is the best.

[tropic relic]

I’m predicting Wooting’s doom now? 😭

[rotund lotus]

Don't tell jakubix

[timber nimbus]

nah i'm talking about other folks in the HE x custom community specifically

some of them predicted 80he would flop just due to layout

[winter cedar]

but was there a particular reason for left to be 2.75? I can even understand that as branding. and that s fine if were honest

[timber nimbus]

that specific demographic that is also upset over not offering tsangan right now

[winter cedar]

so you know its a wooting keyb. is the left is bigger than the right space bar 😄

[oblique pendant]

Then, at least 60k people are owning and using it. Maybe even 100k. Also top used gaming keyboard.

[winter cedar]

just like the take control strip 😄

[timber nimbus]

i think the funniest was one of them predicted the 80he would be wootings first instock keyboard because no one would buy after batch 1 sold

[oblique pendant]

it's in stock, though not sure how much.

[winter cedar]

the world is in crisis finantially and the americans are hostage of tariffs, so I believe there will be stock for some time

[timber nimbus]

i think it got to instock after what, batch 3 or something like that? but for like 3 days or something iirc lol

[tropic relic]

It’s specifically for the people that tilt their board around 25° or so, any more and the split would be unusable and any less and 2.25U would be fine/preferable (what many use already).

[rotund lotus]

Yes, except ANSI modules and iso zinc

[tropic relic]

If they didn’t change the arrow keys that would’ve happened. 👽

https://tenor.com/view/me-atrapaste-es-cine-its-cinema-cinema-esto-es-cine-gif-12869046600151364058

[winter cedar]

I have made an intersting question regarding the double space bar: how is wootility handling space bar presses? SOCD ?

that cant be the default behavior for sure

[timber nimbus]

nothing would change there though

[winter cedar]

NULL conflict resolution?

[timber nimbus]

the extra keys would either be space still or bound to different inputs that aren't space

[tropic relic]

Why would anyone use SOCD on spacebar, we know the right spacebar wasn’t meant to be used often anyway.

[winter cedar]

because usually a keyboard doesn't have 2 keys bound to the same keycode

[timber nimbus]

like for example i'd just end up binding f8 or a random key i don't use to one of the splits and then in game binding f8 to whatever I want

[rotund lotus]

I thought the many were right spacebar users?

[winter cedar]

they you defeat the true purpose of a split space bar 😄

[oblique pendant]

you know rhythm gamer exist, and I for one appreciate the extra spacebar.

[timber nimbus]

i think that's the big disconnect with the ergo crowd vs wootings split

the whole point is extra game buttons

[winter cedar]

hmmm....

[tropic relic]

Gaming and ergo.*

[winter cedar]

I saw so much potential ...

[timber nimbus]

it's not an ergonomic thing for wooting. It's a "oh I play WoW and i get 2 extra keys now to bind for my thumb"

[gray violet]

Challenging the industry right spacebar users

[blissful anvil]

Honestly let's just get rid of the stabilizers and throw 5 1.25u mod keys down there, typing be damned.

[timber nimbus]

or "i play valorant and now I have an easier map button" etc etc

[tropic relic]

Real.

[tropic relic]

That would be an argument if people didn’t already use and like 2.25U boards for gaming including the middle button (for the HM66).

[timber nimbus]

we get it aligner. You think the right space bar is the demo they should cator to and the other demo is few

[tropic relic]

those are the facts that exist currently, another fact being that one fucks over a group of people as I said before.

[winter cedar]

the thing is: if you remap one of the space bars for gaming, you will get a tiny space bar for 'regular' use ... are you comfortable with that trade off ?

[tropic relic]

Which you agree with.

[timber nimbus]

yep - that's the whole point of wootings version

it doesn't interfere with a lot of gamers regular use

[vast dagger]

Are people who buy hm66 buying Wootings

[tropic relic]

Most press their space on the left and right side, not dead center so it doesn’t really matter.

[winter cedar]

WoW thats a big nono

[tropic relic]

Just stating what exists and what has been well received.

[winter cedar]

don't even know what that is

[blissful anvil]

It doesn't fuck anyone over because it's not their only offering, if they didn't offer a full size space layout option and this was all they are selling then maybe you'd have an argument, but nobody is being forced into using the split layout, if you don't like it don't get it.

[winter cedar]

[binging] 😄

[oblique pendant]

Actually, does the 2.75u on left spacebar badly received at all?

[vast dagger]

Tbh everyone I've seen post a HM66 has it without the split space spacebar

[oblique pendant]

On actual use, not like '2.25' should be on that. Kind of use.

[tropic relic]

It fucks over everyone that’d wanna use the right spacebar comfortably. So sure you can say just don’t buy it, but I think there will be a few that buy it without knowing the ergonomics of it.

[winter cedar]

I don't like the HM66 split space bar either [just binged the product]

[tropic relic]

That is also a hypothetical, I’ll say that.

[timber nimbus]

it should be noted that aligner just happens to be in that 'everyone' crowd

[oblique pendant]

Since everything is hypothetical, why don't just let wooting do the risk and see if the spacebar will be appreciated/hated.

[tropic relic]

Split space is niche, never once argued that it isn’t. Many people do like it though, if you search HM66 on twitter or Rakka60.

[timber nimbus]

so wooting should not try out a new variation that may be preferred by some because of users within a niche of a niche?

[vast dagger]

Right but you're also arguing it's a bunch of people getting fucked over

[tropic relic]

Because those are the facts.

[winter cedar]

if you are designing a keyboard for a niche market, you should appease the niche users, no?

[blissful anvil]

Alright this kid is just baiting at this point

[tropic relic]

2.25U on the right side is (imo unarguably) unergonomic for the people that’s want to use it.

[timber nimbus]

yeah but wooting aren't designing it for that niche but rather for the other niche which is why he's arguing

[winter cedar]

ok, then its a pass for me

[gray violet]

I mean I found it quite ok, and that’s coming from a right spacebar - non split user

[tropic relic]

To the many within that niche.

[gray violet]

And I imagine there will be quite a bit of people like me

Who are not already in the split spacebar space

[winter cedar]

thumb sprain is a thing ....

[timber nimbus]

i do think it's a bit funny that the evidence for why wooting shouldn't try out this new variation is because of gamer who buy and use he keyboard with a split option, who also are in the niche of using the split option, who are also in the niche of wooting buyers, who are also in the niche of preferring the ergonomics vs gaming wasd option

it's like a niche within a niche within a niche within niche

[tropic relic]

For left users it’s fine, though as I haven’t seen anyone complain about the 2.25U left spacebar, I think it doesn’t really matter. With 2.25U the middle button would be slightly closer and easier to reach.

[timber nimbus]

and that's apparently the customer base we should be worried about wooting satisfying

[gray violet]

Sorry i meant right

Due to the language I type in

[tropic relic]

Again, not gaming vs ergonomics, both. ;)

[timber nimbus]

at some point your split of the pie graph is so small that it's a bit weird to be using that as evidence

[winter cedar]

if if simply swapping both space bars would please both, I don't see why not honestly

[oblique pendant]

"Perhaps to those uninitiated, my words may sound rather far-fetched" - ahh niche.

[tropic relic]

If you were to use your left thumb, 2.25U would be perfect.

[gray violet]

True, but I don’t think right 2.25 is necessarily taking anything away from me

[timber nimbus]

it doesn't - he's saying it does but it doesn't

it's literally aligner arguing on behalf of everyone impacted by it

while everyone else is saying it's fine

[tropic relic]

The argument goes back like this the whole time. If you were sno, it would take away from you.

[winter cedar]

IMHO, thats the only deal breaker for me, and I use ergo keybs as well

[tropic relic]

It would take away everything from you.

It’s just about the overhangs.

[tropic relic]

It does, it’s a better balance as I said before.

[oblique pendant]

cant wait for q4 and see what everybody else is thinking about it on actual use.

[winter cedar]

the right space bar being 2,25 is a deal breaker for me , because of possible thumb sprain when typing

[tropic relic]

Fucking over the 2.75U people.

[gray violet]

Yep, me too!

[timber nimbus]

you know what's the funniest part though

[winter cedar]

but hten again, I have about 12 60Hes , dunno when I need to restock 😄

[oblique pendant]

oh yeah, you can just still buy the 6.25u 60hev2

[timber nimbus]

the whole evidence behind aligners statement is that boards exist and it's more safe and popular to do it his way. Once wooting releases theirs, it would be more popular than the current split he options and therefore by his evidence it's now the correct one to copy

so once wooting release their 60he v2 they are correct

it's more bought and used so therefore it's the right layout now

[tropic relic]

That’s just in bad faith man. You know my argument well enough by now, cmon.

😃👍

[timber nimbus]

yeah i do, but that's the fallacy of the logic behind your argument

[oblique pendant]

Shin Megami Tensei Chaos route be like, "We're stronger, which means we're right."

[timber nimbus]

i know why you're arguing for it (because you think it's better) but none of the evidence about popularity matches up to back it

[tropic relic]

We’re right, thus we’re stronger.

[winter cedar]

[quick plug] I just want a southpaw 100% 😄 😛