#Starting out at ToA questions

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

subtle jetty
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Hello! I just had a few questions for starting out at ToA.

For context, I've done a few entries and normals but mostly wanted to wait until after bowfa and bgs (got the bowfa, still working on the bgs).

From my normals, I managed to get a sun keris, so I was wondering how I should go about learning to use it (as in, where and when should I be using the spec?). I'll be going back down in invo level to learn the harder ones first and build good habits, so at lower invos is it still worth using?

How should I be splitting up spec/prioritizing between bgs, burning claws, and sun keris? Should I even be bringing all three?

Also, should I do ZKAB or BKAZ? And should I be bowfa or hasta ing Ba-Ba? Dps calc shows ~.5 dps difference between the two when range/sc potted, and ~.3 when salted (hasta being higher dps than bowfa in my setups).

Thank you!

ornate crown
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  1. Sun keris is only used for pushing very high invocations, specifically overly draining and or dyhidration runs. You can easily reach a 350+ level raid without enabling either of those invocations. Since you do not have fang yet you still need to bring it to kill kepri so you can use it as a get out of jail free card, but you should never be forced to use it without those invocations.
  2. For BGS vs burning claws, BGS until you hit a total of 20 on kepri, ba-ba, zebak and then use claws for the rest of the spec. Hit pillar with BGS till 60. And for everything else just use claws.
  3. Bowfa and hasta are only close dps on ba-ba at lower invocations. As invocation level increases the dps advantage of hasta increases as well. It is best to learn to hasta ba-ba.
olive fox
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id recommend something like this for learning invos

image.png
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if you get comfortable with everything here, you can easily coast to ~350 rl

limpid pawn
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the main benefit of bowfa ba-ba is saving supplies as ranging her doesn't end boulder phase and you can kite her in circles for zero damage taken if you get a center rubble pile. i recommend it if you find yourself strained for supplies at higher RLs, but you may not need it with sun keris.

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also if you do bowfa ba-ba you will want to go ZKAB and probably turn off boulderdash

subtle jetty
dusk quail
night sapphire
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Yeah toa has so many variables I think it’s always best to specify “this is how I approach X with Y setup” and if asking questions to focus on “why?” questions so you can determine what’s best for your gear/invos etc

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The only constant is that invo level go up = good

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Assuming you’ve learned enough to make your own informed decisions by the time you get 400+ where invo increases might offer diminishing returns

full trellis
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The main thing is that people lose ticks and also let their spec energy waste at 100% which is why it's hard to give advice for their playstyle as opposed to the most optimal one. But then the other issue is that within the caliber of players who are in HLC + do ToA reasonably efficiently, there are still different strats because some people strongly prefer NSH + ovl + haste while others prefer NHN + no ovl + no haste, and those have different strats and needs for DPS due to stuff like mager skip these days

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Probably what someone can do is make a single YT guide with a single specific set of assumptions and prescribe the spec weapons for that, but if you deviate from that then all bets are off and you're better off "forking the methodology" (to borrow the Git parlance) and determining your own modifications

rich lichen
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Reynold on youtube has a lot of good guides

subtle jetty
subtle jetty
dusk quail
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  1. Sun keris is good always. The passive effect is better healing per slot and time than alternatives, and the spec can be useful in a pinch. In pre-fang setups especially it helps save inv space to push to 350 ish.
  2. Pillar speccing is very mediocre in bowfa setups. One of the worst places in the raid to use your spec bar.
  3. Bowfa baba is a strategy that can help in a number of ways, saving inv space and increasing points/hr even if the flat dps is lower. The point is that you make up for it at zebak. The strategy may or may not make sense for your gear and stats, but the direct dps comparison is too shallow to decide.
olive fox
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i will note that there is an opportunity cost to using sun keris since you lose the ability to use that spec for dps specs

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assuming perfect play you wouldnt use it outside of the situations first listed but in practice it's very useful for most people

dusk quail
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Do you mean the opportunity cost of not using a higher dps weapon? I'm talking about the passive effect, not the spec

rich lichen
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you lose dps for that unless you mean on skulls during wardens p3

olive fox
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the passive effect has limited use cases, basically only where you can reliably 1 hit things

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typically people refer to the spec when discussing the item but the passive is powerful where it's good yeah

dusk quail
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nah during warden you have enough health, its for pre-fang baba puzzle

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I also like the spec for hasta akkha

olive fox
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you dont really take damage in monkey room anymore

rich lichen
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a good baba puzzle will be close to 0 damage but if you are not as skilled maybe

gritty plaza
dusk quail
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The situation I was thinking of it's mostly because it is slightly faster and/or lets you take more supplies to increase rl

subtle jetty
# olive fox id recommend something like this for learning invos

Finally got my BGS(!!!) and started sending raids using these invocations. Insanity was actually not as bad as I expected (assuming I should be skull skipping with the spamming tech, right?).

However, trying to skip boulders with boulderdash on was painful and killed me like 3 times and stay vigilant absolutely destroyed me and my supplies.

Any general advice on improving with either of these invocations?

grand vector
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Just practice more

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Go into entry mode turn on boulderdash and suicide until u get it

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Do the same with upset stomach

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And whatever other hard invos

olive fox
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seconded regarding boulderdash

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what about stay vigilant destroyed your supplies?

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the only tricky part about it is that when he swaps prayers, he will still do one final attack of the previous style he was using

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so if you switch your prayers too quickly, youll get hit offprayer

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I like to do the gear swaps first and prayer after when i see him change style

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avoids that problem

subtle jetty
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Is there a specific technique to boulder skipping or do I just hit boulder run through until I make it past the boulder line?

olive fox
subtle jetty
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For stay vigilant, I think I might just need more practice with remembering what prayers correspond to what attacks, because he would just switch prayers and I'd be head empty and tank two of his hits before realizing he switched haha

olive fox
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it's according to the combat triangle

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if he is weak to magic, he's using melee

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because magic > melee in the combat triangle

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etc

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you can also just remember that he will start using melee and will then swap to range, mage, and back to melee always in that order

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he doesn't swap to a random style, just goes to the next one

subtle jetty
olive fox
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there are also some radius markers that some people like to use but i never did so i dont have them

grand vector
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Radius markers good

subtle jetty
olive fox
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he also makes a sound effect when he swaps

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thats what i would usually notice first

subtle jetty
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Okay ty to you both for the help! Looks like I have a bit of practicing to do

subtle jetty
olive fox
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imo you dont need to go entry to practice stay vigilant but its a good idea for boulderdash

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yeah its just because he's in a 10 rl raid

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with literally just boulderdash

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just dont stand in front of the gap and youre chilling

subtle jetty
olive fox
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sort of

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it has some randomness but there are some general rules to keep in mind to solve it easier

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first puzzle will generally have a jug to the left of zebak that can be used to solve it

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second puzzle generally has jug(s) right in front of zebak that can be used

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I like to stand near the left stairs when the first puzzle starts, and right in front of zebak (but not in melee range) for the second

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to typically dodge the acid splats

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the waves arent any different but i like to hug the stairs when those spawn too to avoid acid

dusk quail
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There is an image with recommended spots for both rock sets in the guide

rich lichen
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with upset stomach you often have to shoot jugs manually as opposed to just pushing them into boulders, especially on 1st set, as pushing them diagonally from behind sometimes leads to them exploding in front of the boulder

grand vector
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when in doubt push horizontally

strange turret
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When is it worth to Butterfly Akkha? My mage setup is nearly 2 dps lower than melee fang and bowfa.
Is it only good w/ Shadow?

dusk quail
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Yes

olive fox
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need shadow or near max mage without it

subtle jetty
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How do I figure out if I should be ddsing warden core/benching dds and using burning claws/poking with hasta/how many downs to aim for? Is dds necessary for a 3 down?

olive fox
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dont need dds for a 3 down but need a competent 4t weapon

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hasta works if youre using that

tall sundial
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Depends on your str bonus, idk if there's an updated core SIM but you can calc with bitter

olive fox
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the main way to figure out if its "worth" is to compare your timesave of not doing a 3rd down vs the timesave of having those extra specs/+1 inv space