Gear Progression Chart

[rustic granite]

It has spoon protection and the amulet doesn't

[midnight dome]

tbf I ran out of whips pretty early

[hollow cobalt]

basically 50/50 to get it before amulet

reg whip exists

[midnight dome]

if I didnt get scythe on 23kc I'd probably have nallied

[hollow cobalt]

whip/tent/nally/blade/sra are the same weapon

[rustic granite]

Idk if this is true

[midnight dome]

is it really

[upper pike]

Slash, hits OK dps, I agree with tent/nally/saeldor being the same

[fossil flame]

prob not accurate but i think odds of getting nally is way faster dont know how stats work

[midnight dome]

feels bad to rock up to tob with a normal whip lol

[hollow cobalt]

feels better than doing more arraxor

for a meme weapon

[rustic granite]

I should go back to Araxxor, I still need the jar

[hollow cobalt]

unless you do non-troll p3, in which case a 5t weapon is very handy

[midnight dome]

fang works decently

[upper pike]

I got nally in 250 kc BTW, you can spoon it

I got 2 nallies in 650kc

[rustic granite]

Cool

[hollow cobalt]

you can spoon anything, that is not useful information

[upper pike]

Just saying that's its generally expected to get nally by the time you got rancor

[hollow cobalt]

no

that is just incorrect

[rustic granite]

It's not

[upper pike]

3x1/200 va 1/600

[hollow cobalt]

yes

both are 600 on average

so about half people will get one first

and half will get the other first

[midnight dome]

kinda

[rustic granite]

The distribution is different

[hollow cobalt]

the average is the same

[midnight dome]

ye but 50/50 is still true I think

[rustic granite]

There's going to be way more people with Rancour but not NHally at 200kc

[hollow cobalt]

and more people will nally but not ranc at 900. it evens out

[midnight dome]

yeah but there will be almost nobody with rancour at 1k but not nally

[rustic granite]

And since we don't care about dupes, it'll be about even at like 1200 KC

[hollow cobalt]

no i think it will be even at 600

[rustic granite]

I could write a sim

[upper pike]

This

[midnight dome]

nono you're misreading me

this balances out with the higher odds of people spooning rancour vs nally

[upper pike]

You meant that at the point you've got 1000kc at raxx because you went slightly dry on rancour, it's almost guaranteed to have nally, right?

[midnight dome]

yes

but conversely, if you get rancour at 200kc you'll almost certainly not have finished nally by then

[upper pike]

If you don't spoon rancor, you're likely to have nally is what I meant.

So why not use nally at tob

It's 5t

[midnight dome]

you can't just presuppose people go dry on rancour though

some do, some don't

[upper pike]

You also shouldn't pré suppose peeps spoon rancor

[midnight dome]

exactl

[hollow cobalt]

Both are equally likely holy fuck

half people who get ranc will have nally already. half will not

[midnight dome]

it's 50/50, half will have rancour before nally and half will have rancour after nally

[chilly ruin]

anyway just use whip

[upper pike]

Tent whip cringe, I got 2 whip drops in total and I am 99 slayer

[rustic granite]

How good is whip vs BP while you're waiting on the 13th hammer

[midnight dome]

a lot better actually

now we're getting somewhere

[chilly ruin]

0 hammer what if we fang maiden?

[midnight dome]

3min maiden lets go

[upper pike]

Why drain defence when you can use voidwaker and just hit anyway?

[midnight dome]

so you don't want to get a dwh but you do grind a voidwaker that is like a 60hr grind

[hollow cobalt]

Actually looks like it's more like 58% to get ranc first instead of nally, even if the average is 600 for both

[midnight dome]

[hollow cobalt]

because you can spoon ranc but not nally. and you stop as soon as ranc is done

[chilly ruin]

that sounds plausible given the 3/3 shit

[upper pike]

The chart says to get voidwaker

[hollow cobalt]

and the chart says to get a bgs so what the fuck are we even doing here if we're blindly following the chart

[midnight dome]

I feel like the voidwaker is a much better skip than dwh or bgs

[upper pike]

I too dislike pvp

[midnight dome]

it's not really about pvp, it's about use vs time

[rustic granite]

That's what I was saying yes

[midnight dome]

I think vw is much more niche than dwh or bgs

[hollow cobalt]

yes

[steep vessel]

get alot of useful ironman drops on the way to the voidwaker

[upper pike]

I skipped crystal body because I'm dry at cg, but that doesn't mean you should skip it

[chilly ruin]

[rustic granite]

You need to do pvp to make it red

[midnight dome]

no you can just skill in dmm

[rustic granite]

Actually that's the reason we should skip DWH

Need to do BH if you get it

[chilly ruin]

dmm kit doesnt look that good anyway imo

[upper pike]

The only thing I care about kits is if it reduces my death cost

[midnight dome]

honestly death costs stop mattering really quickly

[rustic granite]

Clue doers care so much about death costs they drop spades to reduce the death fee

Won't someone think of the cloggers...

[dusky fog]

I’ve done arraxor and spindel without DWH and both have been fine

[tacit crow]

Oath bclaws cox is meta isn't it?

I remember pecan saying he'd skip dwh if made a new account

[quiet schooner]

Phase starts are kind of weird

I think danny was saying it was impossible to figure out good phase starts lol

But also dude just sounds like u don't wanna get items for whatever reason just don't get them if u don't wanna

It's bad but u do u

[ember summit]

@steep vessel Artio has given me tons of seeds and dbones which is nice for sure

[indigo hollow]

I’ve heard people saying the burn is an issue as well for running mage hand if you spec at the start of a phase

Which makes sense

[quiet chasm]

I’m 1400 kills in without a nally 😅

[quiet schooner]

Yeah he basically always turns to u

It's pretty annoying

[daring night]

but bgs as well right?

[polar void]

its fine but its def worse

[dusky fog]

For sure, I just wouldn’t necessarily avoid doing the content just because you don’t have it

[mental tangle]

does anyone of you beautiful human have a screenshot of their spindel setup? @dusky fog @polar void

[dusky fog]

I'm sure I modified it over time based on feel so might have brought in different amounts of things, but this is what the inventory setup pluggin at least consisted of

think you can bring d boots too if you trust your escape/protect item capabilities

super att/str can be super combat

[mental tangle]

thank you boss

[dusky fog]

also can use a cctv alt if you'd like. If you search some of my older posts I went into detail on how I did it effectively

prob in discussions channel

also that is ava attractor. Dont even need to bring if you have plenty of darts/knives to waste

and I always used blighted supplies before my own as i accumulated them

[rustic granite]

If you're very confident or have a spare trouver you can use torso

[mental tangle]

i had pretty much the same setup + added dwh

[dusky fog]

i think duel ring was just in case I seed pod out, which can happen a lot with pkers, I had quick was back to ferox

[mental tangle]

if i get smited i lose ddef which is not the end of the world

[dusky fog]

just do go 8x dry on it like i did XD

[mental tangle]

waiting on your edit

[rustic granite]

Only if you don't use a trouver AND you get smited AND you don't make it to the 20 line before dying

[mental tangle]

i deserve it at that point

[dusky fog]

me too

[rustic granite]

Could even do rune defender if you're afraid

It's only 1 str 5 acc less

[mental tangle]

mama raised a gigachad

[dusky fog]

bro's bringing the avernic

[mental tangle]

i dont even have the avernic

[robust roost]

my question with dwh skip is are you doing cox with no scythe or are you doing tob with no hammer

[tacit crow]

Tob with no hammer for sure

You become reliant on teammates though so I wouldn't ever put it on this chart

[robust roost]

if you have horn and bgs

hammer is optional

horn can replace hammer at sote

well not for trios i suppose

camp dps role and spec transfer a main at sote lol

[strange nexus]

Just hit big with bgs

[upper pike]

just spoon a maul

actually, just spoon everything , why need more than 12 Cox kc for greenlog. sounds like non-spoon behavior

[mortal perch]

Not a big thing but it might be worth adding the DT2 rings to the retirement goals list (the ones that are not apart of the core list)

[frail sonnet]

just bring everything parched you can

my setup had infernal cape avernic torture dwh dboots bm legs basically everything

assuming u are remotely competent at checkin cctv/escaping

[hollow cobalt]

trouvers more of a pain to get than more capes

[frail sonnet]

yeah I used dupes over trouvers on capes

[hollow cobalt]

or a defender

still easier to get one of those than trouver

[frail sonnet]

not sure avernic is easier to get than 1m tho

if youre tob chunk I could believe it

[hollow cobalt]

just use the ddef?

[frail sonnet]

why would you not only waste time grinding out a spare ddef but then also bring it and lower your dps

[hollow cobalt]

because grinding out trouvers wastes more time?

[frail sonnet]

oh I forgot u guys dont do LMS

ngl I kinda thought they were just free and cost 1m to use cuz thats how I treated them

[forest knot]

have 7 of them doing nothing atm

[fiery river]

Curious about ghommals hilt 4 placing - would it make sense to turn on boss slayer for this and work on the adjacent rewards?

[hollow cobalt]

no

[fiery river]

thanks

[timber kiln]

speaking of hilts why is master cas so late anyway

[hollow cobalt]

Does it get you anything of value?

[tacit crow]

Only extended thrall really

[dreamy whale]

Asked in the main chat but probably more of a ladlor question

What is the justification on wrath runes before occult altar? swapping to lunars for gotr in between dark spellbook for hourlies is kinda annoying, is there any good reason not to just get sceptre and occult altar now

[tacit crow]

That's probably more from bruhsailor than ladlor

[hollow cobalt]

it gives you millions of prayer xp for free while you do slayer

this is very good and saves many hours

[dreamy whale]

Sure but theres not any slayer going on between the wrath rune and max POH stuff tiles right

I think ive forgot the fact that ladlor recommends spellbook swap by now

[hollow cobalt]

ngl doing gotr i would just not do hourlies

because of the way the games work it's just a bit ass

[dreamy whale]

lol thats how im feeling

showing up to a half done game right?

sucks

[inland cosmos]

I can think of a few minor reasons.
You might have gotten too lucky at cg and dont have the gp to max house.
You might not have banked enough logs from misc for construction xp.
You can still do hourlies with spellbook swap, don't need to camp arc spellbook.

I don't think the runes from zmi will help that much with training thieving, but it's there I guess

[quaint flame]

idk about the occult altar but the sceptre can definitely be moved, following bruhsailer its recommended to have a sceptre even before doing any of the pre mm2 slayer

[neon eagle]

was agility removed from chart?

[robust roost]

nope, just rebranded with the hallowed crystal

to symbolize “do sepulchre”

[granite veldt]

In the chart voidwaker comes after zenytes. I dont use any zenytes during the vw grind, right? So after hasta i should be good to go?

[hollow cobalt]

that does not sound right?

[chilly ruin]

torture/anguish may both be relevant

[granite veldt]

at which boss?

[chilly ruin]

spindel + artio

[granite veldt]

artio is bowfa right?

[chilly ruin]

yeah

could eye if you had it maybe

[granite veldt]

dont i bring crystal?

[chilly ruin]

artio setups are a little weird bc u often still want no negative mage bonus so some setups use anguish

[rustic granite]

crystal legs and anguish are like the same dps

but there are ways to do Artio without ancients

[robust roost]

glory gives a magic bonus that anguish does not if that makes any diff for breakpoints

[granite veldt]

isnt a crystal helm as 4th item good if you have a scout so you need a mage swap anyway?

[real yacht]

I did mystic helm/angush/crystal body/legs/barrows gloves/iimbued god cape was enough

I think its been a minute

[granite veldt]

do you just need 0 magic attack bonus or higher?

[rustic granite]

yes

[granite veldt]

how does that work? when i put it in the dpscalc i only have ~60% accuracy on ice barrage with 2 magic atk bonus

[hollow cobalt]

the boss is different

[hardy citrus]

If Artio is not already frozen, and the attacking player has equipment with a total Magic accuracy greater than 0, then the first attack that would freeze the boss (Entangle, Ice Barrage) is guaranteed to hit.

[granite veldt]

good to know thanks!

[robust roost]

im too slayer brained

forgot crystal helm

[round knot]

why is dragon pickaxe in the chart?

a friend asked me what boss i did for dragon pickaxe cuz he assumed i had it and i said none cuz i feel like that item isnt even useful

so where is it useful

cox guardians come to mind but dunno how much it affects

[chrome helm]

ToA I'd assume

[round knot]

can 1 down with rune pickaxe

[chrome helm]

Also it's in the same spot as VW, so you'd get it passively

[round knot]

yeah but if you dont get it passively doesnt it being on the chart mean you should still grind it out

[quick mica]

If you don’t get it passively it’s probably fine to skip

Don’t think it’s a massive upgrade over rune tbh

[round knot]

which is why im wondering why is it in the chart, seems weird to me

[hollow cobalt]

Its very good for cox

[round knot]

seems to be like +11% dps compared to rune pickaxe on guardians

oh no its more like +20% i forgot dragon pickaxe has higher stats too lmao

i just checked the damage modifier difference

[tacit crow]

You also have to get giga spooned on voidwaker to not get it along the way. The vast majority of people will get it during voidwaker grind

[full panther]

this is a correct reading, and its a very unlikely event. if indeed 1down is possible without then in true minmax thinking its prob ideal to save d pick until pre-cox to really squeeze out some extra dps while going for it. but bcs of how minmax that'd be plus the overwhelming likelihood of getting dpick anyways, its prob gonna sit where it is

[quick mica]

Ironically I got pick after finishing VW

[round knot]

dont remember what the akkha puzzle was like before but i think last year they made it so 85 mining and rune pickaxe 1 downs

[quick mica]

And yes I got spooned

[full panther]

i see

ye rune pick at 85 mining gets a 1 down it seems

didnt know that, cool

[round pond]

Leave it in anyways

[quiet schooner]

It's really good for cox

If ur doing mega scales especially u spend like 5+ minutes on guardians

[granite veldt]

is the reason that eye+gauntlets are after slayer (cerb boots,rancour,occult) is because eye is only good if you have occult?

[fossil flame]

anywhere u want to mage eye is prob a bigger upgrade then occult/gauntlets combined over trident of swamp

but if ur gona mage u prob wana get occult first

this is olm for example eye camp alone no offhand no torm no occult is better then trident with confliction and occult

[granite veldt]

right

so continueing doom wouldnt be too bad if i were to miss those after treads

[robust roost]

it's because you don't rly mage anything until that point

and when you do it's slayer task with barrage

but the order there doesn't rly matter

those drops don't help you at doom, and the eye/gauntlets don't help you do slayer

[tacit crow]

Yeah this + the combination of treads helping you with getting those upgrades

[robust roost]

all things considered, you're very likely to see one or the other before treads anyways, especially if you do delve 8 resets

or 7 especially

i would consider it a good idea to finish off doom first so that you can perma swap the bow back to staff and have yama as an option whenever

[tacit crow]

Cries inside

[robust roost]

twins

that was me, i finished at like 3700 total gl

actually probably closer to 3600

[hollow cobalt]

why would someone be doing 8 resets?

[rustic granite]

why are thralls after dragon defender, don't they work on the cyclopses?

[hollow cobalt]

#drops-and-achievements message

[woven nova]

They prob do, u melee the akd quest in bruhsailer

also im not sure u have the mage level even

maybe for 2nd tier thralls

[rustic granite]

yeah even the 2nd tier would be nice

[woven nova]

then u gotta do akd quest without defender which is prob doable but i think the fight is rough either way

[tacit crow]

Dang that's my future. Except you actually see glow holes.

I'm always at half the expected uniques for some reason. So I know I won't get another dupe until I'm at 10 expected uniques.

[mortal perch]

What do I win?

[austere pecan]

Freedom

[chilly ruin]

a trip back to demonics

[mortal perch]

if i needed main gp it would be better off just sending more doom for boots/eye drops

[low stag]

Damn you got me beat. I ended up at rank 42 iron. This has to be front page lol

[forest knot]

jmods have also twice now mentioned that they might change cloth/arax fang so that you can make them tradeable without zenyte

im praying

[polar void]

Even if they did it would flood the market

They wouldn't be worth nearly what you'd want them to be

(I'm not an economist this is not financial advice)

[forest knot]

im taking every wednesday off for the next 52 weeks then 1t doing it on release for gp

[tacit crow]

It's not gonna make them drop 50m lol

[forest knot]

also yeah i think youre overestimating the impact of iron dupes

[tacit crow]

the amount of bots far outweigh the irons with dupes

[polar void]

I'm packing 3 in my bank rn

Better be 40m minimum

[robust roost]

but all the bots just got banned!!!111one

[dreamy whale]

Question that came up for me in the #ironman-discussion channel, bloodbarks placement made me think ah this must be to mage swap for muspah (ofc its for slayer too), but it seems bowfa only for icon is the done thing

If that's the case, am I right in thinking that bloodbark could be before/on/after the ancient icon node, and seemingly make no difference?

[hybrid blaze]

Correct

[dusty widget]

Does step back method save good amount of time compared to kiting muspah

[rustic granite]

if you're using DA4 then there's no ttk difference

it just saves run energy

[silent pasture]

step back is very easy, step back once the 0hit splat on you disappears, when spikes come out you hybrid stepback and kite

[stone quartz]

specifically you have to run 2 tiles back with a 4t wep

its only a 1 tile step with a 5t wep

otherwise you 5t your bowfa

[tacit crow]

Just simpler to run around like crazy with Bofa tbh

[rustic granite]

Classic WOW hunter

[dusty widget]

DA4?

[rustic granite]

[[da4]]

[last echo]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Desert_amulet_4

[dusty widget]

ohh

[stone quartz]

since the run energy changes yea. little reason not to

saving run energy for the 10kc trip ca ig

[flat flame]

yeah i found pseudo stepback/kite to be a really easy way to brain off still 4t bowfa

[daring night]

Where does the Bottomless Milk Bucket sit on the progression?

[hardy citrus]

First. New meta is ides of milk asap. Then bottomless milk bucket for cooks assistant and rfd

[winter agate]

F2P ladlors with the new BiS off hand

[inland cosmos]

Unironically the mooleta could maybe be part of the real chart

At like the very beginning

[hollow cobalt]

not a chance

[inland cosmos]

Only reason I am saying this is that there is a small amount of melee to be done before dragon defender and the mooleta is extremely fast to get

If the gear you use for that melee does not gain a max hit with the +1 str bonus I think it’s a waste of time tho

[hollow cobalt]

is it extremely fast with 50s melee stats?

[inland cosmos]

It’s double combat xp and can be done on slayer task right?

[full panther]

a rune sword on slash with 99 melees is like avg. ttk 16.3s

50s melee rune sword on slash is avg. ttk 27.2s

i mean that comes out to 14 minutes to get the thing

[inland cosmos]

Yes

[tacit crow]

It's actually really good melee xp/hr too

[hollow cobalt]

If you happen to be doing slayer anyways and get a cow task, might not be awful just because of the xp multiplier

don't think the scuffed defender matters at all

[full panther]

its both inconsequential cost and gain

[tacit crow]

If there's any melee training you are supposed to do off task you could do it there

[inland cosmos]

Yes exactly

[full panther]

pretty harmless either way

[hollow cobalt]

Can't imagine ever doing this over crabs

[full panther]

i dont hate putting it on the chart in the name of being pedantic if it is good beyond a reasonable doubt

[hollow cobalt]

No it should not be on the chart

the chart means it's worth going out of your way to get

[inland cosmos]

Idk personally

[full panther]

if the achievement diaries items that were largely not relevant for the scope was removed, then the mooletta doesnt have a strong case for going in

[inland cosmos]

Probably better to abstain from putting it on the chart until someone proves it should be placed there

Does it have a reasonable time save

[tacit crow]

1/4 chance it gives you a max hit

But with low level strength that's gonna change so much

[inland cosmos]

True

[full panther]

0.25 extra maxhit on avg then?

[inland cosmos]

Yes + some accuracy

[tacit crow]

And I don't think you melee anything with actual defence for awhile right

Although I guess when you are like 40 attack any accuracy will still help on zero defence monsters? Idk

[inland cosmos]

Perhaps

[granite veldt]

i wouldnt be surprised it could fit in this step, getting it and then doing slayer until mentioned stats

[hollow cobalt]

What dies the chart assume you're doing for melee to defender?

Just billybob slayer tasks

[granite veldt]

i think i did 1-3 hrs of slayer here(cant remember precisely)

you just exchange 1
slayer task for the mooletta which you will then immediately replace with defenders so idk if makes any sense xd

[full panther]

tbh im unable to take this item or boss very serious either way lol

[chilly ruin]

a lot just comes from questing and barb fishing for str xp

there's like an hour of slayer or something for misc req

[hollow cobalt]

Looks like it's basically never gonna be a max

[chilly ruin]

yeah its just not relevant for the sake of the chart but sure have fun go get it if you want

[full panther]

one tension im holding right now is an imagined tradeoff between conciceness and completeness. if we imagine that the mooletta could save time but not all that much, i dont know right now if to prefer it stays on or off

i would loev to hear waht you guys all think, because i can imagine people leaning both ways

[chilly ruin]

off, don't overengineer it

[full panther]

right, leaning this way too

[chilly ruin]

given how much is based off bruhsailer early i'd just recommend reading through the detailed steps and looking at how little you are actually meleeing pre defender

its pretty much quest bosses as required and the bare minimum to get to 40 slayer

but lamps already cover a lot of that slayer xp

[full panther]

if fire cape with +4 is comfortable being delayed until after cg then i think +1 for mooletta is comfortable being fully skipped perma

[hollow cobalt]

if you're already doing turael slayer tasks and need melee xp, doing the boss might be alright. Think that's independed of whether the defender is any good

with this setup and 15% prayers it gives you a max at ~1/5 of the strength levels so it makes your melee training 1-2% faster. 1-2% of the time to get to 65s is fuck all

With no offensive prayers if you're just afk hitting sand crab it does literally nothing.

[granite veldt]

think you hit the nail on the head here

[rustic granite]

Doing the boss early on is better xp than crabs and gives pre-overhead prayer xp

You can also camp melee prayers and Ardy cape + cowbell back

[tacit crow]

It's objectively better than crabs. It's just that the defender doesn't warrant a place on the chart.

[rustic granite]

Why

[hollow cobalt]

Because it's not a "go grind this item", it's a "if you get a task sure do the boss for xp and if you get it, neato"

[rustic granite]

That's what I'm saying, you'd grind it instead of crabs

Getting slayer tasks that early is trolling

[chilly ruin]

i think bruhsailer sends u on 1-2 tasks for a small gap before one of the misc quests with a 40 slayer req

training slayer seriously yes

[rustic granite]

That's not likely to get you a cow task and probably after overheads

[hollow cobalt]

right

if you get the task you do it

if not you don't

[rustic granite]

Why would you do crabs over it

[chilly ruin]

why do crabs at all

[hollow cobalt]

to walk away from pc for 10 min

[rustic granite]

You need melee xp

[chilly ruin]

tbh the bigger omission here is that the theory behind the chart assumes u get like 65 str from barb fishing

[rustic granite]

Yeah and you need 65 attack to get your defender

[chilly ruin]

but neither of these are really gear

75 str even

im not saying the cow is bad just idk if this is the right context for it to be mentioned lol

[silent ice]

what is this sheet?

[robust roost]

it would take him more time to add it to the chart than the amount of time it would save for anyone lol

[chilly ruin]

bruhsailer detailed stats

[long burrow]

I'm kinda suprised too, its a 1/30 drop on a boss with 58 health

[fossil flame]

but how fast or slow is it to get?

cuz it doesint have much impact but it also seems very fast to get imo

wiether its worth or not seems like itd be close imo

[hollow cobalt]

there is 0 chance that going out of your way for it is a net timesave

[fossil flame]

but i doubt it hurts massively either

like zaxe situation

[granite veldt]

just fyi bruhsailer does not let you do crabs at any point in the guide

[rustic granite]

can you range the boss

[rustic granite]

incorrect

[granite veldt]

Most of these are afk alternatives, guess i ignored those

question would then be can cow be afked or is cow better than the non afk alternative, though it probably doesnt matter enough to go into such detail

[rustic granite]

it's not afk, but it could be better enough than the afk alternative that it's worth doing instead of AFKing

it's Reddit afk/MLM activity levels

[robust roost]

are early sepulcher rush and 95 rc a part of bruhsailer as well?

[chilly ruin]

yea

the rc step is pretty much the end

[hybrid blaze]

Fwiw this looks like an old version, we knife loar shades now for this step

[granite veldt]

is warped sceptre solely used for toa?

[inland cosmos]

Yes, except for maybe some quest bosses

But ibans works against them as well

[polar void]

You know the meta be stale when we have a conversation this long about mooletta

[rustic granite]

Strength is good, actually

[onyx shard]

Worth taking to muspah as mage switch? Or do you just bowfa only

[tacit crow]

I don't think sceptre is ever going to out DPS Bofa at muspah.

[chilly ruin]

no way id take warped sceptre to muspah

[tacit crow]

Even if it did it would be so minor that it isn't worth it. And you'd need like max mage

[loud jasper]

According to this dps calc you would have 11,5% dps increase on melee form with a 7 way mage switch https://dps.osrs.wiki?id=QuillLootGollwyns but you would want the ancient sceptre for slayer for getting the warped sceptre in the first place

[granite veldt]

https://dps.osrs.wiki?id=MosschinsOrnamentCattleprod

ruby bolts e with rcb switch beats the 7way mage switch

[fossil flame]

cant believe there even is a situation where bowfa loses to rcb

but also am not suprised to much

[chilly ruin]

also loses at nex

(tho ideally dont rcb nex)

[fossil flame]

i have low standards when it comes to bowfa dps but thats a new low

[fossil flame]

this actually seems like really good tech for ppl grinding ancient icon fr though

had no idea

[indigo hollow]

it gets a lot worse than bowfa below 390 hp in that setup

[fossil flame]

think even with that its only 1 extra inv spot

i think ud definitely get value out of it

even if its only good above 390

[indigo hollow]

yeah since you're bringing it anyway for sapphire bolts

[fossil flame]

no giga swapping or sweating either

even if u give bowfa anguish deadeye over rcb glory/eagle eye

rcb still better for melee phase

above 390 hp

[eternal sage]

lb

[neon timber]

Bring dwh and defender. If you hit 1 spec bowfa still better.

If you have desert elite done then tele out each kill pray at altar and tele back in with ring of shadows

[indigo hollow]

In the context of the chart you don’t have DWH or desert elite at that point

This is just for the icon

[neon timber]

Ahh gotcha. Guess you wouldn’t have warped sceptre yet either. What is the warped sceptre even used for on chart?

Nevermind it’s prolly for TOA

[inland cosmos]

its toa yes

[dreamy whale]

Can anyone comment on if you shouuld get warped sceptre off task or unlock it as a task?

[inland cosmos]

I think off task?

[chilly ruin]

i think bruh used to say unlock it but idk if that still stands

[steel lagoon]

im at the point in the chart where i just got lightbearer, any point for me not to continue doing toa now until i get fang? I know if i stop now it will be a month or 2 before i get to the fang step and i will have to re-learn the damn raid lmao. And its probably gonna be useful for a lot of things inbetween like slayer/ca's no?

[quiet schooner]

Fang is pretty mediocre for slayer

[ember summit]

The thought is probably LB at doom and get the eye and gauntlets which is a much bigger upgrade than fang?

[quiet schooner]

Honestly if I were to do it now I'd just put fang along with shadow

It's uses outside toa and nex are extremely minimal

[ember summit]

And with 95 slayer at that point you may also have DHL right?

[quiet schooner]

It was only good for slayer because of dragons but u just block them all now

[rustic granite]

berserker ring > lb at doom imo especially if you get double death charge first

[steel lagoon]

is it assumed we solo yama for death charge btw? idk how hard that really is

havent done yama or doom at all yet

been playing everything solo until now\

[ember summit]

@steel lagoon I think duo yama is about the same time as solo for acquiring gear but that assumes you are pairing with someone similar to you

Can't be doing way less damage than them

[tacit crow]

Duos are slightly better for full oath. And a lot faster if you are just doing 100kc for double dc

[steel lagoon]

yeah but i mean how is it difficulty wise? is there a big spike in solo vs duo?

i just dont really have anyone to play with lol

[winter pumice]

There’s always people looking for duos on Yama world

[tacit crow]

Difficulty depends more on your method for killing Yama than duo vs solo

[rustic granite]

Does it lol

I think solo is always harder

[tacit crow]

I mean, it's the same fight. Harder/takes longer to learn solo yeah.

[neat sun]

What would you use at hydra for gloves then?

[quiet schooner]

hasta/bowfa

[robust roost]

solo yama all but forces you to learn the extended fly method for killing the flares and the 3 set of waves afterwards

you should never get that in a duo

you also often have to kill p1/2 flares in a solo, rarely in a duo

[rustic granite]

Better to flare skip anyways

[robust roost]

even so, flare skip solo is a tight-ish timing, whereas duos will rarely even need to, and it’s easier with 2 people

[rustic granite]

Yeah I meant in a duo

[robust roost]

oh yeah

[rustic granite]

So duos you literally never kill flares unless you noodle on p3

[robust roost]

solo consistently sees mechanics that rarely come up in duo, on top of being a much slower kill, so i would say it’s harder by every definition

[rustic granite]

Also more chip damage

[robust roost]

it also forces you to spend more time banking, you don’t have the luxury of a partner who can possibly def reduce with horn hanmer, and lockbox doesn’t scale contribution so you’re not even being fully compensated for doing all the damage

one of those can at least be rectified with an alt but yeah, solo yama is omega troll unless it’s your only option

[quiet schooner]

If u solo u should just learn nofly imo

Flare skip in solos is mostly consistent it's pretty rare u hit DPS check

[forest knot]

i think solo is the way to go these days tbh, yes duo with a decent partner is going to be better, but good luck still finding a consistent duo partner for yama

[robust roost]

have friends/a clan angle tbh

a social circle inside the game is bis

for a lot of things

[forest knot]

am in an end game iron clan, hence why i said it. Most irons that are decent at the game have completed yama by now

[robust roost]

ehhhhh you'd be surprised

a lot of people who've "completed" yama might still want the pet

there are gonna be plenty of people still missing a piece or two from log because they had to craft one, or they left before helmet/horn because both are niche

or they might just help you out

[forest knot]

the guy that just recently finished oath in our clan after spending weeks asking every day for yama+1 in cc, mostly ending up using randoms from the yama world would disagree with you

[robust roost]

maybe your clan spoons everything so he has nobody left to go with

i've experienced nsa's luck in one bingo already

[forest knot]

https://tenor.com/view/dawg-this-what-we-do-gif-23580384

[robust roost]

i think that was the same bingo where one of my clanmates got a 3a bow within the first hour or smth

[rustic granite]

Bingos that allow pre stacked clues/caskets

[steel lagoon]

true but idk how to have one while working shifts. I'd literally be playing with someone and then not be on at their time for the next 3 weeks

let alone most of the time after work you just dont wanna interact whatsoever because you are drained as f

[granite veldt]

Best way to get (super)anitpoisons for zulrah?

[chilly ruin]

1. dont use superantipoison
2. buy from brimhaven or sophanem if you must use reg poison
3. just get the lvl for antivenom

[chilly cove]

Re #3 - get the level for Antivenom+ (don’t use regular anti venoms. they don’t last long at all)

[chilly ruin]

i totally forgot those are functional lol

[full panther]

Ladlorchart.com has been updated! (Chart Builder)

The Chart Builder has received several major improvements aimed at reducing known friction points for users.

• Loading times have been reduced substantially after migrating from a free hosting provider to my own server. The difference should be very noticeable.

• Quest nodes are now annotated with initials for quicker visual scanning. Since abbreviations are strictly derived from quest names, there are some duplicates (SOTE applies to both Song of the Elves and Spirits of the Elid, along with ~13 other cases). These are expected and currently accepted, as sequencing context should still differentiate them.

• Formatting requirements in the input field have been heavily relaxed. For example:
  bones, [big bones, dragon bones] is now valid.

• The input field now remembers your input between sessions, making incremental edits smoother.

• Skill node were broken and has now been fixed.

• A button has been added to fetch directly from the main chart, making it much faster to personalize your own version.

Very excited to share this one, and even more excited to hear your feedback. As always, let me know if anything breaks.

for some context to those unaware, the diff should be ~50s load time to <1s

[loud jasper]

**The unethical ironman chart has been updated! **

• Removed the 69 slayer step as you do your chinning inside cox not in the mm2 caves.
• Merged the broader fletching and medium combat achievements tiles as the order you do them in doesn't matter.
• Replaced hunter and ranging capes with 99 hunter and ranging as those labels now work correctly.

Very excited to share this one, and even more excited to hear your feedback.
https://ladlorchart.com/#/chartbuilder?token=Eaq3UuAgOAo

[polar void]

'Cure Me' spell is good, and you can also veng if you have high enough mage

[granite veldt]

thx for responding, gotta be on standard spellbook cause using twinflame unfortunately. found a cheeky way to get antipoisons by bringing cadava berries and limpwurt root to the apothecary in varrock lmao

[chilly ruin]

surely thats worse than buying them

[hollow cobalt]

[quiet chasm]

You can buy antipots in sophenem

[fervent portal]

What makes it unethical

[quiet chasm]

Cox boosting

[granite veldt]

yeah i know, but bank is far

its probably similar tbh i didnt find a cheat

[quiet chasm]

It’s not that far if you have contact completed

[blissful nymph]

Man doesn’t know about the sophanem bank

I didn’t know about it for ages 🤣

[fervent portal]

I was like “huh u can run cox in void?”

[loud jasper]

You get boosted in mega scales and chin the 0 defense mystics and shamans. Also you leech in tob

[robust roost]

no bowfa?

[granite veldt]

700kc in still no bowfa :/

[robust roost]

rip

[soft rune]

Which melee weapon should I use for solo olm? I'm currently grinding doom and tob. after doom, I plan on doing lots of solo cox when not tobbing. Is fang melee hand viable? Is it worth grinding a DHL if I plan on doing a lot of solos (have fero)? Obviously if I get a scythe that would change my plans

The guide is assuming mega scales with scythe and an alt account, but I don't honestly see myself doing that, so I'm not really sure what the next best play would be

[chilly ruin]

u can just whip/blade if you dont wanna grind dhl

hard to answer if dhl is worth but it is very nice at olm

[radiant pelican]

on a similar note i just got spooned fero gloves at hydra, my best melee weps are salad blade and nox halbard. what melee wep do i use for solo cox for the prayer scrolls?

[chilly ruin]

prob blade

the better your gear is the better blade will be relative to nox basically

but also i think 4 tick weapons are a little easier to use and ur less likely to end up doing a method that misses ticks

[hollow cobalt]

Grinding thousands of cox with anything other than lance/scy is pretty sus

[tacit crow]

The guide is not assuming mega scales with scythe/alt?

Scythe is still BIS for solos too. Efficency wise, you don't do cox after dex/augury until scythe.

If you don't want to grind out scythe you get lance.

[soft rune]

Is tent whip 4:1 better dps than fang 3:1?

[opal patrol]

yes

[soft rune]

Oh cause you miss ticks. I guess it's either grind DHL, or do something else until scythe

[hollow cobalt]

Doing some cox with whip is fine

Doing 2500 to finish log is not great

[polar void]

Just get the lance, on rate it's very reasonable for a massive upgrade and it gives prayer levels/gold for runes. You also can always bet on more dragons being added in a medieval fantasy RPG

[tacit crow]

I think I'll go back for lance eventually, but after only after scythe or tbow

[dreamy whale]

Searching through for titans setups/advice, why is this?

[chilly ruin]

it used to not count for contribution

so you'd have a smaller chance of getting unique items and slightly less regular loot

afaik its fixed now along with burn doing the same

[dreamy whale]

Thank you! So the way to go is solo, ignore the add/wall mechanics, bowfa hasta go brr?

[chilly ruin]

pretty much

it is possible for the walls to fuck you and make you eat a bunch of damage right at the end but it only happened to me once going for prayers

[robust roost]

is one of solo/duo better at titans or does it not matter

[rustic granite]

wanna try that one again

[robust roost]

fuxed it

[latent oyster]

site 404s now?

[hybrid blaze]

Yeah this is outdated, do use thralls

[hybrid blaze]

Duo is technically better but the difference is small

[robust roost]

i figured as much

does duo do staying trips or are you meant to DA between kills?

[quiet schooner]

Should be da4 resets

[full panther]

What url do you use?

[hybrid blaze]

Da4 alternating every second kill so you get quickstarts iirc

Solo da4 every kill

At least that's what I think is best, maybe others know better

[latent oyster]

The pinned one, ladlorchart.com. It gives some sort of certificate error and when I press continue anyways I get this page

[full panther]

should be fixed now

this was a confusing one because what was broken was specifically www.ladlorchart.com, where just ladlorchart.com was doing fine lol

it broke when trying to fix a separate issue some days ago, sorry for that inconvenience

[latent oyster]

No problem, that is a weird one 🫡

[karmic fossil]

@full panther items I checked off as complete were not persisting until I manually cleared local storage 🤔 dunno if you made changes and an older version was cached or something

[full panther]

Sounds unfamiliar. I did clear the cache as part of troubleshooting the above issue, could be responsible? I didnt really otherwise change anything recently that i would expect would mess with local storage

[full panther]

Can you check what url u access with? If its github then this might be kind of expected and idk if its all that fixable beyond doing what you just did :o

Some gihub.io

[karmic fossil]

https://www.ladlorchart.com

occurred on my work computer I guess I’ll see if it’s also an issue when I get home later

[full panther]

oh no, you're on to something, things acting up on my end too

[full panther]

Okay, this issue is addressed, but a bit indirectly. www.ladlorchart.com now redirects to ladlorchart.com, which makes my life significantly easier in maintenance. the short term consequence is a bit unfortunate though, which is that the localStorage effectively resets a bit for the www guys. The upside is that it behaves a lot more predictably for you guys too

[abstract bloom]

asking just out of curiosity but why is there no sotd on chart? not worth time time getting same time you get hasta? looked it up briefly in this channel and didn't see anything conclusive

[long burrow]

I’m not even sure where you would use it, I would use it for tob if it could autocast but the autocast there is just so lazy/easy/convenient

[hollow cobalt]

Tob

but it's pretty rare. Same thing for zgs, it's neato but idk if it's worth actively grinding away at zammy for

[abstract bloom]

doesn't autocast ancients holy washed

this answers my question assumed it did

[hollow cobalt]

+15% is still very good

[long burrow]

Yeah definitely better than sceptre dmg wise for tob crabs, but man the autocast on sceptre is nice

[abstract bloom]

i assume dragon hunter wand is just too slow to get over icon?

or does it have bad breakpoints

[long burrow]

They need to let it autocast ancients and that helps bridge the sceptre - kodai gap, not including any nightmare staffs

[hollow cobalt]

No

If they let it autocast it just replaces kodai entirely lol

[hollow cobalt]

If you aren't doing megascales it seems pretty not worth. If you are... maybe idk?

[rustic granite]

DHW

[granite veldt]

what invo do ppl run for the lightbearer and fang parts?

[quiet schooner]

Idk what's standard now maybe like 380-400

[granite veldt]

without fang? Damn

[opal patrol]

as high as you can

[neat sun]

@granite veldt I did up to 350 solos, without fang or lightbearer together I don’t think it’s worth it to push much higher. Did 300s when I wanted to chill and 350s otherwise.

[umbral pasture]

350 used to be the sort of soft limit pre-fang but the raid got gutted pretty hard so yeah 400 is an option

Running out of brews to baba/akkha chip is no longer a thing

[real yacht]

https://youtu.be/4BIOm29hPQc?si=CWrmcFlpfW5baGji

When in doubt regarding toa look at what reynold is doing

[robust roost]

yeah being a dhunter wand owner i did a lot of tob with sotd, and now that ive experienced the autocast side im never switching back unless im helping someone get speeds

[radiant pelican]

Im trying to grind out Lance rn, but if I give up at 3x dry, I'd just be doing salad blade 4:1 olm?

[opal patrol]

yes

[hollow cobalt]

anything other than lance or scythe longterm is trolling yourself

[rustic granite]

terrifying calculation for nex avoiders

https://dps.osrs.wiki?id=JonasKrakenBlock

[radiant pelican]

It'd just be for the scrolls, per the chart

[hollow cobalt]

then yes use whatever

[radiant pelican]

Thanks. Just put it in the dps check, with my gear DHL is 1.2 dps better than blade on olm left hand

[round pond]

3x dry sheeesh

[dreamy whale]

Spooned BClaws, would you still grind out voidwaker for titans/early toa?

[hybrid blaze]

I wouldnt but there's a very decent case for getting VW anyway for the long run

however, personally I think you'll be fine without

[rustic granite]

if you want it, now is a great time to go for it

[torpid bison]

Curious why cloth and eye aren’t in the same section as boots from doom

[full panther]

its a bit of a minmax, treads benefit the stuff between treads and conf+eye, whereas conf+eye don't and can be delayed

[tacit crow]

Alternatively if you get eye and gaunts before treads. Id probably just go zulrah and go back to doom for treads with blowpipe

[full knoll]

What does the Enable bare bones mode mean on the chart?

[rustic granite]

Turning the setting on activates bare bones mode

[full panther]

bare bones used to be a separate page for those that wanted only the gear, so thats what that option now does, removes more or less everything except gears and cmb lvls

[quaint flame]

does getting a saeldor change the progression path in any way

[hollow cobalt]

Early hasta loses most of its value I guess

[daring night]

you won't need whip or tent whip 🤷🏻‍♂️

[chilly ruin]

in ladlor chart terms not rly bc you arent using whip too much

and tob is still post oathplate/ultor/feros on there

you can probably do some earlier realistically

[quaint flame]

yeah im in a predicament here with a gdemon task but no arclight. do i send kril anyway or just block/skip? also i assume nox hally is a 100% skip no questions asked

[flint pebble]

Do you have a BGS yet?

[radiant pelican]

finally got my claw. dont have rancour yet. do i try and get a second hasta so i can make dhl? looks like dhl only loses 1 max hit at araxxor

[quaint flame]

no but scobow makes kril ultrachill no?

[flint pebble]

If you finished bandos but still need shards then might as well send kril with that task you have

[hollow cobalt]

might as well send kril

[radiant pelican]

will i need hasta anywhere else otehr than araxxor?

[fossil flame]

u can wait finish arraxor then make the dhl if u havint already

only other place i feel like ud want is for radiant but dhl is basically same thing

and ideally scy just depends hm crush content u wana do pre scy but there isint much imo

[forest knot]

does zhasta even still have significant value now that black gem exists?

i thought it was a toa until fang item (ikno you need it for lance later if going for lance)

[hollow cobalt]

Well if you do it this early you end up using it for all sorts of baloney melee tasks

And toa gems take kc too

Plus araxor, wildy bosses etc

[quaint flame]

it would be my best crush weapon by a good margin but yeah idk where id use crush, wildy bosses ig

[forest knot]

thats fair yeah

[fossil flame]

zaxe is very close in terms of crush often

[hollow cobalt]

Vw grind is very optional though so if you don't get it no big deal

[quaint flame]

yeah but id rather get hasta than zaxe if i dont have either no?

post bowfa

[hollow cobalt]

But like its a 4 hr item on task that also gives some other neato shit

[fossil flame]

hasta is so fast to get like idk i still think its worth just think its less useful now

[pseudo jolt]

u need lightbearer + scobow for perma spec on k’ril. After like 3 kills your spec will run out if no lb

[hollow cobalt]

You can just spec once and door altar after

Its still neato

[pseudo jolt]

yeah that’s fair. I just meant ur not going to be able to full afk and spec without it

assuming that’s what ultrachill means

[quaint flame]

yeah but can i not get a lb without hasta or wat are u saying

[pseudo jolt]

yeah hasta is good in toa so I would probably get that before farming lb

maybe im wrong there tho

[hollow cobalt]

Hasta is definitely good but not a hard req

[quaint flame]

any significant diff anyway between door altar kril and bandos?

if i learn it for bandos should be easy for kril too right

[austere pecan]

The only difference should be the start

Kril you have to wait a tick? Its been a while

Other than that, yeah the same

[upbeat mason]

yea with scobo its super chill

fuck up just spec and kill it

[quaint flame]

actual kill times between scobow and bowfa dont seem siginificant its more that u can basically watch a movie while doing it

[upbeat mason]

i do find that the stupid lieutenants really fuck me up on kril alot though

[forest knot]

ngl can watch a movie during door altar too

[granite veldt]

is there a point in the chart where super combats/antivenoms become important?

apart from the obvious zulrah i guess

[chilly ruin]

divine scbs are more relevant

and id personally want those for any kind of melee boss

[granite veldt]

okay so getting 93 herblore is good to get sooner than later

[rustic granite]

divine super strengths + regular super attacks before then

[hollow cobalt]

By the time you get to araxor you pretty much need extended antivenoms

[tacit crow]

This. Doing araxxor without extended AV+ is essentially lighting antidotes on fire. Which are becoming increasingly hard to come by.

Divine scb are ideal for melee bosses, but you can get by with divine strength regular attack.

I only started hurting for divine scbs after Tob.

[hollow cobalt]

I completely ran out of antidotes and started having to sbs doom

or farm zulrah for antis

[tacit crow]

Getting eye first is so ideal for that. Sucks that you can't really do it without eye.

[granite veldt]

guess i gotta mentally prepare for more mixology for reagent pouch, refuse to do more herblore before it

[tacit crow]

I never got pouch

Just extends herb afk by like 10 seconds.

[granite veldt]

true, but it also doubles it

[midnight dome]

It's very nice imo

[vivid mural]

Are Kara 4 gloves worth grinding before slayer grind if we already have someone in the group on wrath runes.

77rcing atm

[midnight dome]

If you want to max, doing rc before slayer makes sense because it will save a ton on gp

The teleport doesn't do that much though

[soft burrow]

do i keep warped creature tasks unlock past getting the sceptre drop?

[rustic granite]

No

[inner falcon]

Lock after getting the sceptre

[south fern]

Might as well never unlock them and just go off task. Better to save points

[midnight dome]

is there a way to add manual line breaks in the custom chart builder?

nvm resizing the browser works

[steel lagoon]

So I'm on the threads/double DC part of the chart and obv should probably do Yama first for DC, but isn't it kinda troll to go Yama without occult? Or does this assume that I'm a god gamer and will do a melee only method ?

Or I could just train slayer until I finish up elite ca's and probably have occult at that point and then start Yama/doom idk

[midnight dome]

all you need is 20% damage to deal with void flares, so you can replace occult with mages book and armour switches

and yes melee is way stronger

[steel lagoon]

I am looking to learn that later for sure but when completely new at a boss I'd like to go with the easiest method until I get the basics

I guess I can just do that without occult

Have torm ahrims ward etc

[midnight dome]

Sure you can do mage only

But honestly it should only take a couple kills to get the basics down, it's a pretty straightforward boss

[dusky fog]

I did like 350 Yama KC before I ever got an occult. It’s just more switches to hit that 20%. That’s the only difference

[strange nexus]

Common misconception melee yama is easier then mage even for bilybobs

Just takes a few kills to learn

[umbral pasture]

someone tell that to the people on the yama world 😆

[robust roost]

difficult concept to explain that rather than having to time dodges you can just click tiles

on top of how obnoxiously expensive mage yama is

what midgame iron would ever want to do that

[chilly ruin]

see all the "just mage tds" comments here

[robust roost]

okay but that’s different, mage there is actually bis until you have scobow

possibly better even afterwards? haven’t bothered to check purging vs bow tds

[chilly ruin]

my point is more its bad if you consider that ur probably a bit broke

convenient but not really

[umbral pasture]

oh well it's fine i just farm 7x shard drops off all the yama magers

[quiet schooner]

Maging p3 is harder than meleeing

[valid tinsel]

Hell no, godfly was hard as hell to learn lol

[tacit crow]

Donofly is brain off. And arguably easier than maging p3

[full panther]

I learnt maging yama later than i learnt donofly, yeah

[steel lagoon]

I'm just wondering what's the best method to jump into and learn tbh, I don't want have anything to do with duos tho.

Watched a bunch of vids and everyone seems to be doing some different shit lol

[fossil flame]

would say just do dono/monofly and duos ideally. otherwise learning simplefly or godfly for solos

the names are pretty confusing but a lot of them just do the same thing with diffrent tiles

[steel lagoon]

I'll check those out ty

[fossil flame]

godfly/simplefly are in the category of nofly (where u dont run all around the room without numbered tiles)

dono/mono is where u run around the room with numberd tiles

[steel lagoon]

But are ones better than the other for solos specifically or why are there so many lol

[fossil flame]

nofly methods are better dps and also main thing imo is they have a lot of good ways to get back in cycle (on mistakes)

in a solo its just a lot more annoying to get back into cycle if u try to donofly it. and ur more likely to make a mistake cuz of how much longer it is

[steel lagoon]

Also I saw ppl bringing a main with horn and elder maul speccing it . Is that considered mandatory for solos? Guess I could do that If I bond my main

[fossil flame]

nofly methods are pretty hard though imo just fyi. would really encourage just duo reclining if u can

[fossil flame]

not exactly sure

[steel lagoon]

Nah in the couple hours a day I have to play and working shifts in absolutely not going to spend time looking for duos lol

It's just not gonna work out

[fossil flame]

someone can correct me if im wrong but i think alt horn tech for solos isint that strong cuz of the setup time to get the horn every kill or something

[steel lagoon]

I was gonna say u gotta run back each time and shit

[fossil flame]

ye thats fair i heard its super cooked rn to try to find teams. a lot of ccs i used/knew are dead

[quiet schooner]

I did all of my solos without an alt

Just ember light spec it max of 3x until 2 land

[loud jasper]

You lose some value when you elder maul spec with your alt because you get 11 shards instead of 12 because of their contribution so it doesn't help you that much

[little igloo]

horn + maul alt feels really strong, and when alt dies it spawns outside of judge so no run back

every kill you get guaranteed max def reduction with horn+maul on alt and 1x emberlight spec on main

[umbral pasture]

it's pretty easy to find people on the yama world still (but they're all magers)

if you don't want 11 shards you can horn on alt and hammer/maul on main instead

[midnight dome]

I'm not a fan because of setup time and also your main sometimes stealing contribution

it's a very small improvement at best

[indigo hollow]

This is what I did. Was pretty easy to set up and got full contribution

[umbral pasture]

and yeah setup time doing that is only as long as it takes for the alt to join and run up to the throne

[midnight dome]

I had no idea you could horn irons ngl

[quiet chasm]

is it tech if first emberlight hits, you can bgs after and on avg its better or am i tripping

[little igloo]

max def drain is 80 on yama

eldermaul on alt + emberlight on main guarantees this

with alt horning beforehand

[quiet chasm]

dont think the guide assumes alting like this, but talking about when you dont have access

[little igloo]

in typical im midgame gear: second emberlight spec reduces def by 34, emberlight accurary is 65%. BGS max hit is 58 and accuracy is 76%

[quiet chasm]

with ballgear you should have while doing yama in the guide, think you might be looking at reg max and not spec

28 avg hit, little bit of gamble idk

[chilly ruin]

it only works in specific whitelisted areas, but yama is one of them

[real yacht]

Haven't read through everytbing else but if it hasn't been entitled gregfly(just search on YouTube) was my favorite for solos

[umbral pasture]

i would favor godfly for solos because it makes flares easier to deal with. in a melee duo you're usually not doing flares so donofly and variants are OK (godfly being way easier to get back in cycle is still nice though)

[steel lagoon]

Are you talking about this? https://youtu.be/9Bka-GJE6OM?is=azqdl5497RgPDCZH

[real yacht]

Yup

I used that for all my kc

[midnight dome]

yeah +1 on gregfly if you want something brain off

[midnight dome]

gregfly is a donofly variant that deals with flares indefinitely

[umbral pasture]

yeah i'm aware, doing flares in godfly is still easier

don't have to maintain a cycle while doing it

[midnight dome]

idk it's very easy to deal with them with gregfly as well

I still haven't learned godfly so can't speak on that

[umbral pasture]

godfly flares are braindead, you can completely free-ball them

since getting back in cycle is trivially easy

you just break cycle to do flares

[quiet schooner]

flares with godfly u get like 4 ticks of leeway

its incredibly laid back

[umbral pasture]

compared to dono it's infinite leeway rly, the worst that can happen is you lose out on some dps

no danger of losing your cycle and being unable to get back in

[real yacht]

I recommend gregfly because I dont think the avg player cares to learn godfly

If you ever plan to do radiant oathplate probably worth learning godfly

[quiet schooner]

I never learned any donofly variant but once u learn godfly it is just so easy and barely anything to remember/change between host/joiner

[umbral pasture]

even gregfly tripped me up a lot because the vids dont address how to deal with delayed start in a duo

[tacit crow]

Id just donofly in duos. You don't need to worry about flares in duos

[hollow cobalt]

I found dono/greg pretty easy to learn and completely bounced off godfly

[opal patrol]

i couldnt get gregfly to work in duos but like everyone else said just use donofly

[fallen torrent]

yea that's for host/solos only

i would recommend some variation of nofly it's the way to go

benefits of nofly/godfly:

• Not doomed if you get delayed start/no tick perfect entry/make mistake mid-cycle
• Not locked into a tick perfect cycle the entire time
• Can easily deal with void flares/help teammate fix his mistakes
• More dps
• More engaging/satisfying
• Arguably less to memorize
• Arguably less brainpower if ur skilled

downsides:

• Need to have vague intuition of yama's 7t attack speed (being 1t late is fine)

[midnight dome]

can't you just visual metronome it so you don't need intuition

[quiet schooner]

u can always just step back a tick after his hitsplat disappears or if ur unsure wait and then attack when he raises his arm

its like super forgiving

[umbral pasture]

Yeah the visual cues for his attack cycle are ez

[hollow cobalt]

Some people find it easy, others don't

Just pick a method and pot, it will be fine

[soft burrow]

If I already have zaxe for crush is it a good idea to do TDs on task to get scobow before zammy & delay toa a bit or do i need hasta for stab at this point

[chilly ruin]

i dont think hasta is very important for toa anymore with black keris, but it is good in general. i wouldnt bother waiting for scobow to get one

[hollow cobalt]

It's very good if you don't have a decent melee weapon.

Keris takes a bit of toa to do

and bowfa is nearly as good as scobow

[chilly ruin]

early toa in general im not really sold on anymore

[hollow cobalt]

I put it off for way too long, but I haven't really felt like I'm missing out

but lb would be nice

[chilly ruin]

yeah i'd like one too. just chasing one for slayer seems kind of low priority

[hollow cobalt]

Woulda been nice for doom for sure

[soft burrow]

what would i use before black keris? vw/arkan on stab?

[chilly ruin]

vw prob best

or just regular keris partisan for kephri

[midnight dome]

If you have vw it's very decent but in general there aren't many options

I would still get hasta tbh, it's also useful for some crush stuff like araxxor and it takes like what, 4 hours to get?

Black Keris is good but you might be running dozens of toas before you get one

[radiant pelican]

I know master CAs are super late game in the chart, but if I was to go for them earlier, where would you put them? After quiver?

[hollow cobalt]

Somewhere around there, but if you're gonna do early CA's you're probably doing quiver/inferno early too.

[robust hazel]

That's about where I am. Starting to focus in on Master CAs a little bit more now myself, little under ~200 points to go

Something to distract from the shadow grind

[hollow cobalt]

Sure go for it

The last couple hundred points goes pretty quick once you're motivated to finish

Where I'm at with it done recently (it was before the oath pieces and feros I think)

[tacit crow]

Yeah I got mine finished before settling down for scythe grind.

Trying to build up a good amount of leeway now so I don't lose it when raids 4 CAs come out.

[dusky fog]

Do you typically run solos?

[robust hazel]

Yessir, usually only around low 400s

Sometimes duo or trios if I have a couple buddies on

[dusky fog]

I need to get fang. I can do low 400s but something is fun about raiding with other people and competing to see how everything lines up on the leaderboard at the end

[robust hazel]

I think TOA is very fun in small groups

Can shoot me your RSN if you ever want to duo

[dusky fog]

Ofc sometimes it’s totally apples to oranges comparing my black Keris /eye of ayuk setup to a fang and maxed mage shadow user setup 😅

[robust hazel]

Yeah I'm usually grouping with a buddy who is in a pretty similar setup so it keeps points fairly even

[dusky fog]

Aye might take you up on that offer. I just ran a few yesterday, first time in maybe 6 months? If definitely like to get some more kc under my belt and relearn everything before I inconvenience someone with less than expected performance

[robust hazel]

No sweat, I'm a super patient person so no stress, feel free to DM if you ever want to

Going to be a long journey I feel

[dusky fog]

Unfortunately I expect that to be the case for myself as well

[robust hazel]

I’m not even close to being able to complain

[dusky fog]

I have 95 expert and 3 purps lol

[mortal flint]

I do want to ask where could I find this progression chart?

[austere pecan]

pin

[torn wind]

If I did inferno early, am I better off doing yama and vard before going for cox prayers?

[loud heart]

hey guys, started my first iron, can you rec any updated guides for new irons ?

[forest knot]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CBkFM70SnrW4hJXvHM2F1fYCuBF_fRnEXnTYgRnRkAE/edit?tab=t.0
This is the most up to date comprehensive guide for fresh accounts

no guide comes close

[loud heart]

ah nice! thanks. ist the gear prog chart updated?

[forest knot]

yeah

wouldnt really consider the gear prog a "guide" per se though

[loud heart]

jeah i know, just interesting

[loud heart]

when i do wintertodt should i just burn logs or kindlings up to 500 ?

just started a new iron

[rustic granite]

Hoptodt

[hybrid blaze]

time for a huge ladlor chart update: new gem pouch upgrade immediately after fang

[granite veldt]

why isn't the silklined herbsack in there already?!?!

[round pond]

Ladlor neck deep in leagues smh

[full panther]

ill have you know i also wiped at regular game tob today

With the herb sack and the gem bag are already on there, i suppose its warranted that their respective uprades go there too

[hybrid blaze]

herb sack upgrade is from sarachnis

im not sure about that one 😛

[full panther]

im not too convinced with the gem bag either, but it seems like a nice one to have if anything

some stats:

• gem bag: 59.35% completion rate, 13.07% skipped rate
• herb sack: 77.53% completion rate, 5.47% skipped rate
  and for reference:
• black mask: 80% completion, 1% skipped

ppl do go out of their way to get these

[hybrid blaze]

yeah, or put differently, people get these for their own reasons and fill in the chart later

[full panther]

im going to defer this one to someone else whos interested in cooking a bit i think. noone will be madge if theyre not on there i think

[hybrid blaze]

the gem bag is very fast and has potential uses for gem mining, though people will want it for salvaging

the upgrade I mean

herb sack upgrade is honestly very meh

ah both mole and sarachnis have a 25kc CA, I guess that's most of the way to a 1/50 drop

[upbeat mason]

herb sack upgrade after rancour so you can do it with spider boots

[cobalt obsidian]

Ive had herb sack basically my whole account and have never come close to using more than like 20 herbs of the same type in it

[rustic granite]

I've only run out when doing Herbiboar, and it's fast and infrequent enough to bank during it

[quaint flame]

herb sack is almost mandatory for salvaging

but yeah the upgrade is not really necessary

[rustic granite]

Oh right herb sack it filled up but very infrequently

And right around the same time as something else filling but I forget what

Cargo hold filling with ironwood repair kits, right

[fervent portal]

i alch those mfs

[toxic cairn]

a bit confused on what to do here, should i prepare for TOA or doom or yama?

[fossil flame]

whats ur slayer lvl? if u already got 1 synpases im assuming its pretty high

[hybrid blaze]

looks like one synapse

[fossil flame]

personally id prepare for doom but getting lightbearer for slayer considered good

[hybrid blaze]

id fill some of the earlier slots you skipped, like occult altar

[toxic cairn]

i just hit 85 slayer lol

only 1 synapse

[toxic cairn]

ok and then u think i should go doom?

[hybrid blaze]

I'm not sure

I think bgs and toa first might be better

[fossil flame]

if u care about light bearer u can grab it and do early toa but its not good for doom/yama imo

just depends hm u value light bearer for slayer but considering ur already 85 slayer idk if its to big a deal

[toxic cairn]

i thought the main reason for early lightbearer was to use it at doom

[fossil flame]

thats not rrly even possible in guide since bp is routed after

in guide

[quiet schooner]

I think if ur goal is to do doom toa first is like completely pointless

[toxic cairn]

o

[hybrid blaze]

its for slayer

[toxic cairn]

i see i had it all twisted

[hybrid blaze]

since you already did most of the slayer for doom I think you can change the order without consequences

[fossil flame]

ye its just preference like mages book it helps to get early for slayer but not to big of a deal if delay till later imo

[toxic cairn]

got it thanks guys

super helpful

alright ill just prepare for doom then >:)

but yama double death charge before doom right

[fossil flame]

ye

but u need second synapse for yama

want emberlight/purg staff. u could do mage only kills as well ig but itd be a bit worse

[hybrid blaze]

and a second synapse is, on average, a lot of slayer

especially with new unlocks in the 85-92 bracket

[toxic cairn]

fk it i got a TD task rn lets get lucky

[lunar lodge]

I would definitely get thread from toa. Its such a quick and nice pickup.

[strange nexus]

I love it for herb runs but on my baby iron im waiting for spider boots lol

[vivid mural]

I think I’m being slightly ignorant here - why is LB so big for slayer?

[frail sonnet]

crystal halberd

[vivid mural]

Didn’t realize crystal hally and LB was so big

[craggy shuttle]

Its essentially free melee xp to do a lil 3/4 way switch and spam spec when you can

On barrage tasks

[real yacht]

I honestly dont think i would ever do that

Makes sense tho

[fervent portal]

im feeling like the next steps after cyrstal helmet is lightbearer into yama and doom, yama for the double death charge and then some doomery, does this seem right for where im at?

i guess i cna go for bgs too once i get the helmet

i dont rlly wanna go to wildy et cos ima have to bond up a scout if i dont wanna lose my mind

[quiet schooner]

lightbearer is pretty useless for those 2 grinds

[fervent portal]

Don’t I need lotta spec for doom to keep challying?

That plus double death charge

[hollow cobalt]

with only chally it does very little

[fervent portal]

I see

[drowsy ore]

Also 1 bond for wildy scouting is nothing, and so worth it

[opal patrol]

can skip vw these days

[quiet schooner]

chally is only 30% spec energy per lol

[toxic cairn]

how come can skip vw

[opal patrol]

burning claws is better than vw at most places these days

its nice at high invo toa for spec/core weapon and nex (before zcb)

i guess pnm too but new quest is coming with a crush spec wep that will probably be used there over vw

[toxic cairn]

ty

[opal patrol]

its still a nice weapon but yea bclaws are just really that good

[real yacht]

Been loving them in tob

[fervent portal]

do you know if i have to train the scout up at all so it doesnt die to random mobs in wildy

[atomic wigeon]

No, outside the boss lairs are totally safe. You just have to run around the green drags going to spindel

[rustic granite]

Training it is actively detrimental

[drowsy ore]

My lvl 126 main sometimes gets killed outside vetion, but lv3 is so much safer

[rustic granite]

The lower level it is the less likely it is that a PKer can hit it

[drowsy ore]

^this

[loud jasper]

You can bring freezes on the alt and then if a solo pker gets on you at vetion you can freeze them off with your alt. Also you can dragon hasta spec them next to the entrance to buy you some time. Make sure to start running with the iron first though

also with your alt you can kick off bots from a world

[full panther]

id be curious on what archetypes yall can imagine existing in the chart-user population

im looking at the chart data trying to answer behavioral questions, so please share any and all curiosities

atm comparing the cohorts of infernal cape havers, split by bowfa havers and non-bowfa havers

[quaint flame]

curious how many skip the bgs

[chilly ruin]

bit more meta, do people not mark things as skipped but still have like 25%+ green

[full panther]

with

BGS skipper = does not have Bandos godsword, but has 10 or more milestones after Bandos godsword in the sequence.
the result is:
171 / 798 players
21.4%

[hybrid blaze]

compare to "has 10 or more milestones after bandos godsword, period"

[full panther]

how do you mean?

this one doesnt take into account the order in which things were selected by the user

already does what you describe i think

[hybrid blaze]

I mean I want to compare "has 10+ items past BGS, but does not have BGS" with "has 10+ items past BGS, may or may not have BGS"

is that the 171 to 798?

[full panther]

there is 798 milestone completed records, 171 of which fit the no bgs + 10 milestones after in the sequence

[hybrid blaze]

and "milestone completed" record means "has 10 milestones after bgs in the sequence"?

[quaint flame]

has to be one of the most skipped items right, maybe voidwaker is a close contender

[inland cosmos]

my guess is on the gem bag

[quaint flame]

well if we remove skilling stuff

[full panther]

a milestones completed record is a snapshot of the milestones a given user has marked completed.

171 of these misses the bgs, but then has 10 milestones marked as completed, that is later in the chart relative to the bgs

[quaint flame]

also gem bag seems lower

[full panther]

these one introduce a bit of bias in not everyone really seeing and using the same chart

[hybrid blaze]

yeah ok im saying you should not compare that with the total number of records

[full panther]

i was scratching my head a bit at some weird stats, but i think these are the reasons

[hybrid blaze]

you should only compare it with other records that have 10+ items completed after the bgs

[full panther]

ah oh of course

hold on

[hybrid blaze]

that way you're checking the people that made it far, and of that subgroup verifying which fraction skipped bgs

[inland cosmos]

oh interesting

[hybrid blaze]

that's about to change

[full panther]

okok, so:

Base cohort: 317 / 798 (39.7%) (10 items post bgs)

Has BGS: 146 / 317 (46.1%)
No BGS: 171 / 317 (53.9%)

wow that surprises me though

[hybrid blaze]

right, thats more in line with my expectations

about half skips bgs

[round pond]

Post no doom items stats

[inland cosmos]

oh damn

[quaint flame]

is it the most skipped, im curious now 😮

[hybrid blaze]

if its easy to automate, you could calc the skip percentage for each item this way

subselect to those that have 10+ completed past it, then take the ratio

doesnt work for the retirement home items since there won't be 10+ past it but w/e

[full panther]

am excluding the retirement home stuff from any of this as of now

[full panther]

in what sense?

nvm prob the same one

some prog past doom as the base, then with and without

[hybrid blaze]

yeah I think a full graph of skip percentage like this would be interesting

yeah

[full panther]

ok, bit of a character dump here, brace urself

Skip rates among players with 10+ later milestones:
*Dragon hunter lance: 67/67 (100.0%)
Voidwaker: 228/315 (72.4%)
Wrath rune: 287/477 (60.2%)
Scythe of vitur: 13/22 (59.1%)
Bandos godsword: 171/317 (53.9%)
Karamja gloves 4: 228/433 (52.7%)
Mage's book: 294/574 (51.2%)
Ghommal's hilt 4: 128/268 (47.8%)
Hallowed crystal shard: 286/618 (46.3%)
Bloodbark legs: 187/414 (45.2%)
Bloodbark helm: 186/412 (45.1%)
Bloodbark body: 186/414 (44.9%)
Elder maul: 3/7 (42.9%)
Lightbearer: 112/270 (41.5%)
Ancient icon: 160/401 (39.9%)
Spellbook Swap: 174/478 (36.4%)
Ancestral robe top: 4/11 (36.4%)
Magus ring: 6/18 (33.3%)
Avernic treads: 52/162 (32.1%)
Fighter torso: 221/698 (31.7%)
Dark altar (Construction): 195/618 (31.6%)
Granite body: 218/694 (31.4%)
gem bag: 194/621 (31.2%)
Explorer's ring 4: 146/478 (30.5%)
Ice Barrage: 178/586 (30.4%)

that dhl situation is from it being hidden behid a f eature that doesnt reall work lol

[round pond]

67

[quaint flame]

ah voidwaker #1

[dusky fog]

The 7 chads with elder maul

[inland cosmos]

you were right about void

[quaint flame]

interesting stats ty

a bit small sample size on the raid uniques though

[full panther]

yeah, the +10 is a bit of a hard filter for those purposes

Making it more dynamic would help prob

[hybrid blaze]

scary that karamja gloves 4 is so high

everything else I can sorta understand

[full panther]

aye

[quaint flame]

i find it more odd someone would go for karamja gloves 4 but skip wraths

[tacit crow]

Id imagine any doom drop "skipper" is inflated by it being new content and some people (me) just haven't updated old charts.

[full panther]

this data is only from ppl who opened up the page on may 11th

how the data pull works in general is also on the first opening of the page per day

[tacit crow]

I've definitely opened the chart and not updated it

[full panther]

aye, then that would definitely be included

[full panther]

does anyone have opinions on this?

[full panther]

i forgot this one a bit but yes, ppl do use it

the numbers are a bit fuzzy because they can only be correlated by timestamps matching closely, since i dont id ppl

[chilly ruin]

interesting. i don’t mark as skipped for anything

[full panther]

its more or less this:

Completed snapshots with >=25% green: 547 / 798 (68.5%)

Of those, lacking a paired skipped-state snapshot:

within 0.1s pairing: 461 / 547 (84.3%)
within 1s pairing: 456 / 547 (83.4%)
within 5s pairing: 454 / 547 (83.0%)
within 10s pairing: 451 / 547 (82.4%)
within 60s pairing: 398 / 547 (72.8%)

5,10,60s gaps can be ignored i think

[tacit crow]

Ah actually I'm not in this data otherwise I would be the only data point that had an augury skip

[full panther]

lmk if u wanna see the raw data and try to find urself :^)

its not so easy to browse though

[dusky fog]

Lad does this go off IP address or how do you ensure it’s not double counting people?

[full panther]

no IP, that would be a gdpr issue immediately

[dusky fog]

I’ve also had it opened on both Pc and mobile for the record

[full panther]

the only de-dupe it does is a daily thing in localstorage

open page -> look for localstorage object

if not local storage object: set it to todays date, send data

if local storage object: check if todays date. if not todays date, set todays date, send data

if local storage object and todays date, do nothing