Gear Progression Chart

[tacit crow]

Pinned

[serene egret]

do you have a video of deep delve car phase with bp?

it outranges my bp currently im curious how ppl do it

[patent pollen]

Wdym it outranges?

[serene egret]

idk im doing the sidewalk thing, has the meta changed

i took a break

but blowpipe drags me from the "safe" tiles

[noble shell]

RuneScape 3

[karmic fossil]

u just walk like 1 tile closer it works fine

[noble shell]

Rs3

[karmic fossil]

Man you’re not playing that crap

[noble shell]

Fun

[frozen olive]

Check the pins in https://discord.com/channels/166812746510368768/1393419290589265960

[frail sonnet]

ask me again tomorrow because I cant pot doom today

but tomorrow I can stream it for u if u want

I setup some boulders that allow me 100% bp uptime for entire car phase

[midnight dome]

it doesn't, otherwise infernal cape would be earlier

[fossil flame]

I think zero ended up making one pvm exploration one

there is very little thats gatekept imo apart from quiver/infernal u can pretty much get everything else from grinding enough. can get tbow doing 1hour solos doom uniques like wave 4 etc

pretty much all of it can be done solo to

[frail sonnet]

can u link

[frail sonnet]

quiver infernal not gatekept either given both can be turbo cheesed with melee tank and mage tank

just need to do the final boss, both of which have an excellent sim for them

[fossil flame]

https://zeroultraosrs.github.io/ExplorationGearProg/

[frail sonnet]

I like it but it does kinda have a lot of just objectively bad nodes no matter who you are

[winter agate]

how would you get ghommals 2 without a dscim?

[rustic granite]

Iban Blast

[daring night]

yeah thats why i added the "extremely low success rate" part, if you're doing solo cox and ending each raid with 2000 points, there's basically no shot you are going to stick around for a t bow

[serene egret]

this is me asking again

the pins were bad examples

[hollow cobalt]

whats wrong with them

[frail sonnet]

I asked u to ping me tomorrow and u ping me 8h later on the same day

[frail sonnet]

theyre bad

[frail sonnet]

a better answer is that the clip starts by immediately losing a tick and that its an extremely inefficient use of rocks and im pretty sure he straight up freestyle'd the last slam

the positioning is also needlessly overcomplicated

@serene egret if u want u can record me doing an example with normal on tick/even amount of lost ticks and after losing one tick/uneven amount of lost ticks and help out all the other poor doom grinders

I cba uploading anything myself on yt

or if the clips can be uploaded directly to discord thats great too

[serene egret]

i slept since

[frozen olive]

how so? they have full uptime

like sure he loses 1t but its the same setup to not lose ticks lol

[frail sonnet]

rocks

[frozen olive]

here's a 20 clear from lux that might be better if you prefer wide tiles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDdk1BEJQkM

[frail sonnet]

why are ppl doing this so complicated wtf

[noble shell]

Runescape3

[polar void]

Lux's double boulder method doesn't seem complicated to me, looks pretty much like how I was doing it for consistent 15-20's

Maybe a bit too much tile highlight around mokha though I just used a range indicator plugin

[frail sonnet]

idk all ill say is my method is easy and braindead 100% uptime

[frozen olive]

well since you cba to upload your incredibly superior strat this is all we have to go off of

[frail sonnet]

need someone to record me in vc later

[polar void]

Did you watch the vid, it's incredibly braindead too he even shows where you can stand to BP and not move

Even I didn't see that up I just felt it out lol

[frail sonnet]

idk I never bothered doing double rockblock

thats why it looks so much wierder

[polar void]

It's flat out superior esp bc you have two sides you can do it on in case acid gets insane

I didn't know about it until about halfway thru my grind sadly

[frail sonnet]

I agree thats a bit better and worth learning for acid in super deep delves then

still gonna show mine tho which should work almost always and also has backup tiles for most movements

[polar void]

Yeah if you're looking to maximize BP uptime (which you should if scobowing) it's the way to go

[frail sonnet]

(my method is also 100% uptime for the 20th time)

I will say tho that I really dont like the melee punish when ur forced to move away to not get melee'd and pray same tick

I do a similar input at that timing but while out of melee range to get in 1 last bow shot before shield phase

also wait its not actually 100% uptime

at the end he just afks

https://youtu.be/iDdk1BEJQkM?t=1603

[serene egret]

watching this 1 now

the one yday wasnt safespotting with rocks

and it was scary

ye ok this looks much better but sometimes i instaphase after 1 chally

i guess i just bring nally instead

[frail sonnet]

u can just chally bonk if u cant afford to phase

tbh I dont think nally is useful if you dont have a tbow, because nally allows u to do 1 tbow shot after melee punish, seems much worse with scobow since scobow is a bit bad and its better to get the damage from better punish directly

it technically produces a bit less acid but I dont think its noticeable while the lost damage very much is

[hollow cobalt]

I'm very skeptical about anything that involves standing around hands in pants waiting for a 2nd rock

[frail sonnet]

im not because the acid clearing if u manage to get free orb phase tech, guarantee to not get 2nd shield phase and just safety of not dealing with orb phase properly half the time far outweights slightly speeding up 100-75, assuming that afking a bit allows u a perfect 0 tickloss bp car phase

you also do not just clear a fuckton of acid with a perfect orb but also prevent making any more than like 2 if doom dies on 1st hitsplat after car phase

I did most of my kc just sending shit instantly and never stalling and decided after a while that stalling for 2nd boulder is just always the play and so much better in all sorts of ways

[hollow cobalt]

I've been really enjoying just doing this but with a pipe (not dragging as far for the 3rd one) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy6IzyBYcLo

[frail sonnet]

thanks for your tbow vod

no idea what thats supposed to tell me

[hollow cobalt]

Legit just do the exact same thing but using a blowpipe

idk man it's not rocket appliances

exact same first 2 drags with pipe makes no difference

it's almost monkeyproof to just do the same thing with a pipe

[serene egret]

nah hes right tbow vs bp is like useless comparison but the lux vod gave enough info anyway

[hollow cobalt]

I mean it took me like 1 run of trying that exact same thing but with a blowpipe to figure out

so idk i wouldn't call it useless

[frail sonnet]

posting tbow car phase and saying "just do it with bp" is actual ragebait

[hollow cobalt]

nvm

not taking it

if you can't figure out that standing on the same spots and hitting the npc with a pipe also works, there's no point discussing lol

[frail sonnet]

watch me stream my method in 4h tho its simplest and doesnt run into all the minor issues the others had

when ppl who clearly did all their kc with tbow try to do bp examples they always miss some imperfection

[serene egret]

sure, @ me again when u go

[tacit crow]

Waiting for 2 rocks just to get 100% BP uptime when you can get 80-100% uptime with 1 rock is troll.

(do not own tbow and have blowpiped this boss a lot)

[serene egret]

it obviously works but comparing 2tick movement to 5tick doesnt rly give an idea of how to play it

[hollow cobalt]

Right but it did not take long to figure it out

[serene egret]

ok counterpoint im bad and my pb is 14

[frail sonnet]

pb?

not trying to ego just want to know how far u can go with a strat that in my eyes makes acid and trolling mechanics 10x more of a problem

[frozen olive]

#1393419290589265960 message

[frail sonnet]

yeah idk

given u have radiant I trust ur a very good player in general, I got a 30 PB with not a crazy amount of kc and that pb mainly jumped hard after 1. stalling every kill 2. inv with bp for longevity

maybe in some world its actually true potting 16 resets or whatever is actually the best but whats certain is that doing so is cancer instead of always delving deep and reaching for PB

something im sure u could reach easily if u stalled the way I do

[hollow cobalt]

doing much slower runs that go deeper might just not be better

[frail sonnet]

them being much slower is debatable given how a better car phase can result in skipping a 2nd shield u wouldve otherwise had

[serene egret]

freedom is not in sight

[frail sonnet]

that said the absolute worst timeloss u can eat by making sure u get a 2nd boulder is like, 15s

youre massively overestimated how much time u lose especially given how skipping shield phase and not having to pot early delves or banking pays back the timeloss

[serene egret]

did you have a recording

i still need to figure out how to set up double rock block properly

[frail sonnet]

in 32min ill stream it

[hollow cobalt]

adding 10s per wave to go to 30 instead of going to 20 is basically break-even in hours per item

[serene egret]

ill try your method mad

[umbral pasture]

yeah nah this falls apart around 3:47 of the video lol

rocks in the far corner like that griefs bp a bit

[serene egret]

closed and locked

[frozen olive]

yeah they closed recently, prob cuz ppl were just posting dry logs and no discussion

[hollow cobalt]

The updates discussion is meant to be temporary for new releases

things have run their course

[frail sonnet]

@serene egret !

[serene egret]

i had to leave the house gg

[frail sonnet]

cringe

[maiden isle]

Im at this section - Question for the house items what do you boost with to get the construction level? Also for Bone crusher and Ash San how many charges should I put them or is just the general unlock? And then for Ice Barriage is that obtain the magic level for it or the boost? Cause I see further in the guide it says range and str but not really sure.

[loud jasper]

orange stew + crystal saw, I dont think there is any other way. In bruhsailer they recommend 24k charges on the bonecrusher getting them from robin with mory hard diary, ash sanctifier you can get the charges back so you can put more in as they run out. I think if you get 98 agi from sep and alch you may get 94 magic, with divine magic pots you can use barrage from 90 magic and use smoke barrage before cg and its fine

[tacit crow]

21

[tacit crow]

He keeps shooting acid in the same direction when it goes to post car. So you just adjust where he goes based on that to help with acid management. I could push past 21 if I adjusted inventory and flicked more, but CBA. I get 99% of the benefit from delving to 20.

I actually go into a 2nd shield like 1-2% of the time with my 80%-100% blowpipe uptime.

It's very rare

spending 15 seconds or more to set up 2 rocks is just never worth it.

Don't get me wrong. I'll set up the guaranteed 100% blowpipe uptime also if I happen to get 2 rocks. But that's just free so may as well.

[still smelt]

Also in that part of the guide you have 75 con so you just Crystal saw and tea from servant I believe

[frail sonnet]

I never flicked anything its rly just comfy boss and acid cleanup that makes the difference

[maiden isle]

your telling me theres a guide that goes with this shit? I just been free balling LOL

[tacit crow]

I don't believe you that you dont flick at all and make it to 30

are you using prayer regens?

[frail sonnet]

1 prayer regen 6 restores

I am very active tho on immediately turning off overheads when theyre not needed, and offensive prayer during shield phase

also you are likely using rigour, im not

[tacit crow]

prayer regen makes sense

Faster to kill boss than do mixology. dont like that minigame too much

[frail sonnet]

better to get good pb than do 20 resets

[tacit crow]

20 reset is basicially the same as 30 in terms of hours to completion.

I can go back for a cool pb when I have bow. no one cares about a 30-40 scobo pb

[frail sonnet]

most people will not care too much about your PB if it is not 221

its if u urself care or not and I was happier when I got my 30 pb than if I dropped a purple im ngl

[tacit crow]

I know

[maiden isle]

is this bruh sailer guide and what step is this

[hollow cobalt]

no it's the prog

[maiden isle]

what part of the guide is this? I havent bheen following the guide lol..

[hollow cobalt]

uh it's at the part that it's at

Like the chart order is the steps

[rustic granite]

sounds better if you care about pet

[hollow cobalt]

pretty unlikely to get pet last

[frail sonnet]

yeah fr

name someone who didnt get 5 pets before finishing items

impossible

[hollow cobalt]

My alt

[real yacht]

Finished the boss before I even got decent at it

[midnight dome]

it is based on bruhsailer (until bruhsailer ends), but it's intended to be used standalone. The idea is for it to be a fast overview and not a detailed guide. Boosting con is crystal saw+stew. 90 mage with a divine mage pot is ideal, but you can also start smoke barrage at 82 which works almost the same

[noble shell]

RuneScape 3

[rustic granite]

Disagree

[umbral pasture]

Runescape 4 and 5, Runescape 6, Runescape 7. Runescape eighteen billion and eleven

[oak thorn]

Is the chart saying get 2 synapses and claws -> go to Doom for treads and Yama for double death charge -> then KQ/da4 and use a wild pie for Rada 4 -> then 91 Slayer? And then after 93 Slayer detour again to Doom/Zulrah/ToA before 95 Slayer for ferocious gloves?

[fossil flame]

in chart u finish doom before starting zulrah

i think thats pretty right though for most part

its good to ask about the value of certain items like for example u really dont need fang pre hydra if u arent gona plan on meleeing it (meleeing it is good though)

some ppl value blowpipe to much for doom over having eye for zulrah as another example

[oak thorn]

I see, ty

[round knot]

dont think slayer helps at all with doom so when in the chart avernic treads appear there isnt really a reason to not just greenlog

[hollow cobalt]

sure

[noble shell]

RuneScape 3

[real yacht]

He cant keep getting away with it

[rustic granite]

UIM

[karmic fossil]

The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind

[rustic granite]

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption

[noble shell]

Runescape 3

[umbral pasture]

Call of Duty 20: Modern Warfare III (2)

[round pond]

Where does 2x dragon cannon for my ship goes in the chart ??

[frozen olive]

Under retirement plans

[rustic granite]

Beyond retirement plans

[frail sonnet]

shouldnt these 2 be swapped

unless voidwaker is secretly massive for royal titans, deadeye for artio seems pretty helpful and should be obtained first

[rustic granite]

It's more useful the worse your ranged setup is

Having a spec weapon reduces how much time you spend in p1

I could see it maybe being a straight up ttk improvement too

[frail sonnet]

DDS/arkan exist and are better than VW for low def targets

[rustic granite]

Ah true, let me check those as well

Yeah looks like even if you get VW first you're using VW as a mainhand weapon and DDS to spec with

Arkan Blade does not look good here

You save some amount less than 4.8 seconds per kill with VW over Hasta with base 90s, so 12 minutes on rate (less because of special attacks + time ranging + thrall)

Deadeye saves 2.1s per Artio so almost 32 minutes

Looks like you're right yeah

I think the right order would actually be deadeye -> VW -> MV

And realistically when you're playing at safer hours do wilderness bosses and when it's more dangerous do Titans

Having to teleport out can easily be a bigger time save than 32 minutes across 912 kills

[noble shell]

RuneScape 3

[open mason]

pls chill with the video game title spam, this channel is meant to be somewhat serious 😄

[terse matrix]

does the soulreaper axe fit in somewhere? kinda like it to send tob with

[hollow cobalt]

no

[rustic granite]

if you spoon the melee pieces and want it either way for clog purposes you might as well finish it

[hollow cobalt]

In terms of progression chart it will never be worth grinding. If you want to get it for clog, get it for clog but that's a whole other question

[terse matrix]

well got both melee pieces indeed, and 1K+ levi without the piece

so kinda wanna send levi to get 3/4 since i should be close i guess

i knew it used to be on the chart,

[hollow cobalt]

With 3/4 it would still never be worth

regardless of which 3/4

the answer will always be "get a scythe"

[terse matrix]

scythe is around 500 kc right ?

[hollow cobalt]

more

[open mason]

somewhere in the 700s i think

assuming deathless

deathless 4s iirc

[terse matrix]

was thinking about trios

[hollow cobalt]

just go to tob

[terse matrix]

yea im at tob haha

with a blade, so not bad

[hollow cobalt]

whip/blade/sra/tent/nox, no diff just pot a tob

[open mason]

purple 1/9.1
scythe 1/19
so 9.1 x 19 x (party size) = expected deathless kc

[terse matrix]

519 trios

not bad if u get it on rate

[open mason]

173 for solo (lol)
346 for duo
519 for trio
692 for quad
865 for fives

[terse matrix]

but also not accurate caus u never get mvp against scythers

[open mason]

oh yea mvp factor too

[terse matrix]

or dunno if it mathers that much

[noble shell]

ok but in return you give me the duck role

[open mason]

There are 18 pts up for grabs for everyone just for participation, plus 14 pts for mvp (divided among each room/verzik phase)

Let's assume you're in a trio/4man and get no mvp points

Trio - you get 18, the rest of your team gets (18+18+14)=50, your share is 18/68
9.1 x 19 x 68/18 = 653 kc for a scythe

And 826 kc for a 4man

Quite a significant change, but I don't think you'll necessarily never mvp when rooms like nylo exist

And scythers make mistakes

[terse matrix]

indeed a big difference

but yeau can take mvp over scythers

thanks for using your brain

[fossil flame]

its not even reccomended for mains because of how awkward it is to use

power level of item is rrly low to begin with

[terse matrix]

yea people told me that, but duno i never used it

[fossil flame]

i think coolest part of sra is its crush power that actually is decent

ive thought about getting it for gm if i decide to go for it without scy

[terse matrix]

im close to completing the full progression chart, so just thinking about stuff that not on it atm

[rustic granite]

it's a little annoying at PNM, basically have to do one kill trips with it

unless you're willing to just camp KO range constantly

great at Sarachnis and Araxxor though

for TOB if you bring it in you don't equip it until Verzik p2

[fossil flame]

crush is the only thing ive looked into that comes close to the power level of scy

slash part is closer to whip then scythe by a lot

but ye i mostly am worried about nm reg solo/some tob stuff (for gm cas) without scy but idt sra pushes needle is like 5-6% for verzik only

[rustic granite]

p2 for reference, 5 stacks

and with oathplate instead of torva

https://dps.osrs.wiki?id=ParableVaseMspeak

[fossil flame]

that calc assumes ur 5ting which u wont for p2

atleast i think

but still its decent for p3 to

[rustic granite]

yeah have to 15/16 p2 but even then lol

[hollow cobalt]

yes it's better, it just aint worth

same as grinding a blade etc

[fossil flame]

this is scy though for p2 its just on another level

at best i think u can sra is in middle but its still slightly worse then that but numbers are bigger then i thought (p3)

[midnight dome]

It's really only good in 2 rooms afaik

[pearl arch]

where does pegs fit in the landlor guide surely its worth at somepoint stuffing em in ur avernic treads. even if in retirement phase. seems to be missin?

[fossil flame]

it does add maxes at times for bowfa and esp tbow but ye alot of ppl say to do it at retirement

[noble shell]

RuneScape 3

[fossil flame]

I dont think though delaying grind makes getting rangers any faster really

[silent pasture]

Just send all passive meds and you’ll eventually get it

[pearl arch]

Well im just sayin its not even in retirement yet

[hollow cobalt]

https://i.imgur.com/JXtMH73.png

yes it should be in the retirement home along with torva, vene bow

[chilly ruin]

should max cape be there too

[hollow cobalt]

sure

and sra too i guess

All this shit is definitely less useful than a max cape for sure

[full panther]

Oh wtf

Is this new as of today?

[inland cosmos]

I am using chrome and did not get that warning

[hollow cobalt]

Seems like it's back to normal for me

[frozen olive]

Ladlor just hacked me and I lost everything

[full panther]

Grtting the warning myself

Gonna look into it

[hollow cobalt]

Originally it said certificate had expired yesterday but now that's gone idk if it's just some weird internet infrastructure going down thing

[full panther]

my understanding of the situation rn is that its cloudflare obscuring some stuff github pages needs for issueing some certification

gonna disable some proxying going on, let gh pages verify what it needs to, then that'll be that afaik

[full panther]

should be fixed now. do let me know if this persists for anyone else

[inland cosmos]

cloudflare really is the cornerstone of the entirety of the internet

[full panther]

ill concede its a bit overkill for this webapp lol

but its fun and gives good metrics

[full panther]

Also, the retirement home feature has existed for one or two months now, and im interested to hear feedback about it. yall been enjoying it? do u wanna see it expand? what items if so? etc.

its fairly inconsequential to add stuff too and doesnt have much integrity concerns except avoiding bloat

[loud jasper]

Pegasian boots and Virtus robes

if stuff like spectral shield and treasonous ring fit there then might as well throw in SRA

[chilly ruin]

i think it might be worth a bit of a trim to distinguish useful retirement items and not. pegs + virtus robes good but i agree that like, spectral, treasonous ring, ags could all comfortably go. i think if you get into clogger realm you kind of lose all meaning

idt AGS has any pvm use

[quiet schooner]

If u wanna skip voidwaker it's decent for muspah gm time for the smite skip

[rustic granite]

It's part of the Sire copypasta

[full panther]

i dont think i ever heard this one :o

[rustic granite]

The April 2025 Abyssal Sire rework destroyed everything I loved about the boss. Abyssal Sire? More like Abysmal Shite! Sire used to be a boss that rewarded players for putting in more effort while still giving everyone time to breathe, now it's click this click that don't stop clicking CAN'T STOP CLICKING, it hurts my hands more than 4t teaks and 5t barb fishing combined.

When you start the fight, you blind Sire with Shadow Barrage. Before the rework, trying to kill all four vents without needing to re-blind him was a challenge, so firing a shot at one of the vents with reduced damage before the blind activated was good because waiting for the blind would reduce the number of hits you could fire by one. Now that only post-blind hits matter, you have to wait a bit after the barrage to make sure you don't waste a shot and overlap your attack cooldown with the vulnerability. Somehow attacking more means you're wasting ticks (bad!). If the delay was 3 ticks you could at least eat a manta before attacking, but that wastes ticks, too. Do you KNOW how much fishing trawler I had to do for them???

Before the destruction of the best mid-level boss in the game, you'd see if you were going to kill a respiratory system by your xp drop. Doing the math to figure out if you should move on to the next target or not and using option selects like it's Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition v2012 for the XBox 360 was the best. It's similar to checking your xp drops at Barrows, THE piece of content that put Old School RuneScape on the map in 2005. If you couldn't tell whether or not to click the staircase early, I don't think the game would still be alive today, it was that important to players.

After phase 1, Sire used to walk forwards, giving you ample time to swap your gear, grab the loot from the previous kill, and take a piss. Now you don't have time for shit, after the fourth respiratory system is dying you have to book it to the boss to start firing at it. The loot spawns too far south for you to loot while firing, and the time before the walk to p2 starts is too short to grab it then run North.

Phase 2 used to be a satisfying cycle of alternating luring and walking under every other hit to delay the boss's attacks while bringing it closer to phase 3. Now that Sire takes less time to kill than an albatross, you never get to establish a cycle, you barely benefit from delaying his attacks, and because he runs you're not really rewarded for luring him anymore, either. With how public chat is at the GE, I was under the impression Jagex was very supportive of luring, but apparently not.

Phase 3 ends too fast to establish the left-right dance that used to be satisfying. There's no suspense anymore on if a scion evolves or not, if you got one on phase 2 it'll always grow up (since you don't have downtime before p3 to kill it anymore) and if not you'll always be fine since the phase lasts less than a tick.

Phase 4's unchanged, but because the boss dies so fast now and you can't use Arceuus spells (remember, have to blind the boss) you won't have your special attack up that often. How am I supposed to kill the boss without my AGS spec? He tears right through my moons gear!

The boss's respawn is unchanged, so after you ran through the boss in p4 after your second auto and dodged the second floor attack after your fourth, you queue up a shadow spell to immediately start the next fight, looting later. But when's later? You can attack all of p1-p3, you're stunned after p3, and the boss respawns immediately.

The only reasonable explanation is that the Sire rework was an idea by Mod North to sell more bonds. By bonding alts, you're able to blind the boss while still death charging for spec, you can loot the boss while killing it, and you can greenlog it faster than I can climax. On top of it lining up with his arrival, it's clearly the work of Mod North because alting excludes irons, who are more likely than mains to be LGBT.

[frozen olive]

[chilly ruin]

https://tenor.com/view/ultrasad-gif-23310565

[full panther]

this felt like doing where's waldo

[rustic granite]

Actually since it's about OSRS you mean Where's Wally

[hybrid blaze]

Im so sorry that happened to you but I'm sure your parakeet will pull through. Stay strong champ!

[noble shell]

The site is just down while he's updating the RS3 section

[maiden isle]

how are you supposed to get 92 range? Im assuming red chins after mm2?

[still smelt]

Yes catch and throwing red chins in mm2 tunnel. Just have to start the quest

[midnight dome]

can also do mystics if you have alts or are willing to pay for someone to set it up for you

[pure canopy]

Why not black chins?

[inland cosmos]

black chins are good, it's just that the wildy is disliked by a lot of people

if you can do black chins it is preferable

[rustic granite]

They do require a higher ranged level to equip

[[black chinchompa]]

[last echo]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Black_chinchompa

[rustic granite]

65 vs 55

So you'd want to do reds to 65 at least

[inland cosmos]

you won't have access to elite void before 70 ranged as well

[rustic granite]

Ye couple mid chin detours

[loud jasper]

is black chins worse than red chins for ranged xp/hour if you do it at peak times? The interruptions and sometimes losing your chin stack to pkers could do that

[austere pecan]

i believe bruh dislikes them because of assumed loss to pkers

not sure what the expected loss to break even efficency wise is

but bruh assumes youll go over that loss amount afaik

[loud jasper]

I think you want to bring freezes to avoid pkers for sure and I think imp boxes and bank with them every 100-150 chins if you arent interrupted

[inland cosmos]

you need to catch roughly 22% less chins if you are doing black compared to red chins to get from 70-92 ranged

[rustic granite]

If you care about the pet or the hunter xp both are so good that even accounting for losses I'd just send black chins personally

[inland cosmos]

if you can catch red chins more than 28% faster than you can catch black chins then red chins is better than black chins

[fossil flame]

you also spend less time thorwing the chins as well

[rustic granite]

If you've done any Wildy content that gave you rev cave teleports you can use them to get back faster btw

[inland cosmos]

this also doesn't account for time spent throwing yeah

[fossil flame]

jcw opted for black chins in his iron max cape speed run to if i recall

[loud jasper]

if you dont have a job and can do it at low times its for sure better

[rustic granite]

Good use of time off for Christmas

[fossil flame]

ye idk i opted for black chins but the theory of it seems so nice. better hunt xp like 6k or whatever less chins u have to catch

[inland cosmos]

it's like 4k less chins for 70-92 ranged

18k red chins, 14k black chins

[loud jasper]

or if you live in australia I guess

well you would have to play in high ping worlds

[pure canopy]

I’ve never died to a pker at Chins

[loud jasper]

how do you survive an attack

yeah I havent died either since I brought freezes

[hybrid blaze]

Black chins are better on paper but wildy activity is hard to account for.

The threat of a pker isn't losing chins - you should be able to escape reliably. It's losing time.

The reduced catch time and throw time both contribute to black being better

[sleek prawn]

Is it not needed to grind pegasians even when having treads?

[hollow cobalt]

It should probably be added to the "retirement home" items

but no it's not very important

[quiet schooner]

If u have a tbow sure why not if u don't probably not

[sleek prawn]

Is suffering useless for me if i already spooned blowpipe? or still worth to grind?

[opal dagger]

It’s considered pretty useless even if you don’t have a bp. It’s an extremely niche item that is a luxury at best.

[sleek prawn]

Yeah i would iamgine so

[opal dagger]

I’ve seen it get use in the inferno but that’s all I’ve seen it in any notable place.

[sleek prawn]

yeah true

fk that

Where is the discussion whether or not vw is worth over burning claws?

[sleek prawn]

Is lightbearer a noob trap compared to B ring when having VW in TOA?

[midnight dome]

You can bring both but if you're picking one lb is better imo

[nocturne ridge]

a tale as old as time.. VW better at toa especially 400+, VW used at nex, PNM, corp, maybe some others. otherwise the weapons could be seen as interchangeable

[hollow cobalt]

So basically toa and retirement home

[spring crystal]

Toa 375 and lower bclaw bis and always for kephri ☺️

[spring crystal]

Yes i do think this until zcb and even then ultor comes very close

[nocturne ridge]

i think its cool VW acts as an extra slot for monkey room and core, but inventory slots are not really that important the lower invos you are

[real yacht]

Vw is also very nice for start of wardens p3 and start of p4 for 100% damage instead of chancing bgs specs

[rustic granite]

Eye spec can be good

[quick mica]

What

Lb is great for any time you’re not melee in Toa which is like 70% of the raid

[spring crystal]

So u would bring a ring switch when maging

[quick mica]

yep definitely

[spring crystal]

I know meant lb when melee kinda troll

[quick mica]

porbably wouldnt bring a 3 way ring switch but depends on other gear I guess

[noble shell]

RUnescape 3

[dusk needle]

Up to the point of cox scrolls and inferno in the guide. Both are completely new content to me. Do you need both scrolls before starting the inferno learning grind?

[forest knot]

xzact has done inferno on a lvl35, so do you need those items? no, but highly recommended

for first timers

[midnight dome]

bgs is better on average on p3 (no shadow)

very unlikely to not get full drain with 4x bgs

[quick mica]

Yep if you’re using Bowfa u should Bgs

Ayak gang where u at

[quiet chasm]

Ayak bofa salad blade myself (ft avernic hilt)

[rustic granite]

Just tried an Ayak run last night and wound up binning LB

I was swapping between Magus and Ultor on Akkha and Wardens, camping Ultor on the other three

[quick mica]

ye that makjes sense

I'd probably just run magus and ultor if I had a magus

[noble shell]

you can just pay someone to do inferno for you and you probably dont need as much gear

[loud jasper]

But that would be against the terms of service of the game

[real yacht]

Does this change with zcb? Also I save my last adrenaline dose for p4 so what avout 2x bgs versus 1 zcb

[midnight dome]

don't think so. Saving a dose for p4 is ok if you struggle with last row, but you should really use the other dose for p3. I'm not sure where you're using it rn but draining defense on p3 is by far the best spot to use adrenaline because it has so much hp.

[real yacht]

Makes sense

I figured its ideal there but I do love 3 zcb on p4 creates a no last row situation almost 100% of the time it feels

[real yacht]

Also for confirmation as im like 100% Ill take the time.hit for dose on p4 so I never throw at wardens . Zcb is beyter than 2x bgs but not 4x bgs

[midnight dome]

no 2x bgs should also be better. I'm just confused as to what you are doing with your 2nd dose. Should be one dose at p3 one at p4

[real yacht]

I take dose 1 at obby

[midnight dome]

obelisk is one of the worst places to use adren imo

[real yacht]

I wanna say that consensus in toa discussion was 1 dose obby for vws or zcbs.

[midnight dome]

yeah I think they are wrong 😛 it has pretty low hp and is not dangerous

just use brews or keris

shouldn't even need to do tick regen/tick eat shenanigans but you can if you want

[real yacht]

I think its the move for high invo

Need keris spec

https://youtu.be/yFCqW1kHmEA?si=aFpXR5HDP3zwrv_i

Cete as well as other 500 runners all seem to be using a dose at obby

[midnight dome]

oh yeah maybe I'm out of date, I wasn't running 500s

1 keris was enough for the 445s I was running back then

he's doing double power though

[real yacht]

True but reynold and others do it with life gonna check rabba

[midnight dome]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wIAuxPA8tk

this is what I was doing but with path invos off and bofa, I used adren on p3 and akkha at the end

never ran out of hp on obelisk but maybe with 510 it's different

[real yacht]

Yeah akka at end is not a thing anymore

Unless you are 2x power

[midnight dome]

I guess might as well use at zebak end + obby

[real yacht]

Yeah people do that I just cba most times to send a bunch of vws while stepping back and flicking

So I just use at obby

[midnight dome]

okay til, but yeah to answer the original question I'm 90% sure 2x bgs beats 1x zcb

[rustic granite]

This is what I do yeah

[midnight dome]

some rough napkin math, looks like 1.33 zcb specs ~ 15s saved, while 2 bgs specs save ~ 30s in a 510 p3

[real yacht]

Good to know

[midnight dome]

thats with oathplate and ultor

[real yacht]

I have 2x piece oath and ultor

[midnight dome]

should be about the same then

[forest knot]

as you push raid level eventually youre gonna end up on the last row 3x zcb or not

so using your zcb tech to just avoid learning it will only fuck you over down the line

[real yacht]

Does fine at 450 rl with tbow wont be going much higher than that outside of getting my kit

[neat sun]

Anyone know best Yama tech? Duo or solo and should I learn no-fly or just stick to donofly?

[tacit crow]

Duo and it's worth learning nofly

[rustic granite]

if you care about the pet and don't see yourself being able to clear the pet contract consistently duo gets even better

[hollow cobalt]

duo is a lot more enjoyable. If you're hunting items and don't care about pet, solos are fine enough

I'd rather do solos than pot with randoms, but I'd rather do duos with homies over that

[tacit crow]

Yeah solos aren't that much worse if you don't care about pet.

A bit worse time to full oath due to less shards/hr

[hollow cobalt]

learning nofly will save you ~1.5 hrs to full oath on average if you do it perfectly from kill 0

Whether the math works out to be "worth" is a bit more debatable

[rustic granite]

what if I spend 1.5 hours debating it on Discord instead

[tacit crow]

True but if you think you want to go for radiant at some point may as well learn nofly early

[hollow cobalt]

sure

[maiden isle]

does this mean get the mage level for this?

confused cause it shows this with the actual levels listed

[full panther]

the difference manifests in those lvl thresholds are suggested breakpoints for maxhits, while ice barrage comes down to having it available or not.

If you can stomach managing boots and whatnot for using barrage then thats a reasonable thing to do

[quiet chasm]

You can divine mage pot for barrage at 90

[forest knot]

in my experience as someone that postponed yama too long, solos is the way to go now. Finding decent teammates is a nightmare now

[quiet chasm]

I love a mager that does all the glyphs and gets less percentage:D

[quiet schooner]

Yeah it's kinda impossible

[fossil flame]

ye ive heard alot of fcs also shut down to

I still feel like for most ppl its prob worth trying to find someone p3 methods are much harder in solo

[quiet schooner]

The problem I found with finding duos was if u find some billybob who's mage only u get like 60% contribution but u barely save any time per kill

Like it's 4-5 min kills vs 3.5-4 min kills and u lose 40% contribution for nothing

I mostly just solod unless there was a decent duo

[tacit crow]

In a good duo you are never killing glyphs anyway.

So having a mage thrall duo doesnt do anything for you

[quiet chasm]

yeah still skip glyphs, meant stepping on them

[tacit crow]

Oh that's on me I definitely had the wrong name.

[round knot]

@flat turtle bp is nice for doom yeah but eye of ayak is also very good for zulrah

Eye of ayak for zulrah probably saves more time than bp for doom, i doubt they did it in this order randomly

[faint crane]

Out of curiosity what's the use cases for Desert Ammy 4 if you have 99 con + ornate pool?

[hybrid blaze]

its better than the pool

so the same as before

[faint crane]

Oh really? I never knew it was better than the pool 😮

[chilly ruin]

should lb really still be where it is? idk how many raids it is to go on rate but it sits on the chart just before quite a few upgrades for toa and afaik the main use is mostly for more chally specs when barraging. if u still valued fang at that point too i'd get it but im not sure thats the case atm?

[vague tusk]

if trips are sufficiently long i think con cape's ability to double as a bank teleport and so save an inventory slot (possibly even 2 depending on the activity if it can also save the tele there) exceeds the value of the +7 hp and ticks per trip tbh

[quiet schooner]

U can bank at nardah too

[fossil flame]

ive had this arguement 100times before still not a fan of it

[tacit crow]

I feel like without fang being really good for slayer now it doesn't really make sense either.

It's hard to math out though. I think it was a lot easier when you were going for fang/lb.

[fossil flame]

its not just toa u have to do scuffed u have to like many other grinds scuffed as well just to prepare for toa

even if its better I cant imagine it being a big upside

[tacit crow]

I don't think much is scuffed pre lb? Besides maybe titans. But I think titans wasnt placed solely with prayers for ToA of course.

Could completely bin the warped sceptre. I was never a fan of that being on the chart.

[fossil flame]

zenytes zammy bandos voidwaker is really the big one.

[rustic granite]

You can calc the ttk on P2 and against a terrorbird

If you find terrorbirds substantially harder than TOA you can skip warped sceptre and just eat the time loss at TOA though

[fossil flame]

the thing is if u dont value early lb then u can just do toa way way later with bp a spec weapon and better stats and not a warped sceptre

[rustic granite]

Sure, but if you're doing early TOA you want a sceptre

[fossil flame]

ye I agree with that

[tacit crow]

All of those aren't really sped up by anything besides rigour and post rigour upgrades though?

[fossil flame]

having better melee stats would make a big diffrence I feel for spindel atleast. can even eye artio to. not saying its insane but just extra things that I do think are worth factoring

rigour is also pretty strong imo even with deadeye

[quiet schooner]

Voidwaker is also just not that big if ur not gonna toa early

[tacit crow]

Also a good point

[chilly ruin]

curious if anyone has figures to hand for this

avg raids/purples for lb specifically i mean

[round knot]

i remember it was like 65 raids when i was grinding for lb at 350 raid level

[midnight dome]

doesn't seem that bad . on rate for lightbearer that's a timeloss of ~45mins

certainly quicker than grinding warped sceptre

[rustic granite]

This is per down, not per clear

[midnight dome]

which is the same

no way you do the mage warden with a warped or skull sceptre

[rustic granite]

You do

[midnight dome]

I did range warden even with trident, it was just better

with a bofa

[rustic granite]

If you don't you have to deal with 3x3 Kephri on p3/p4

[midnight dome]

I left that off

tbf maybe with new changes the +10rl is more valuable but it wasn't when I was doing toa

[rustic granite]

Akkha is also harder than Zebak with stay vigilant on

But ig that alone wouldn't justify it

[midnight dome]

pretty sure stay vigilant doesn't change akkha in p3/p4

was always 3 attacks anyways

maybe I'm misremembering but I think even if you do zebak warden you'd probably dds and 2down with a scuffed setup

might be wrong on that

[rustic granite]

I thought SV made him randomly swap

And you want to 3 down for more points I think

[midnight dome]

yeah it is more points but idk if it's worth with terrible mage dps

maybe it is

[midnight dome]

I'll do a test on this later, I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply to the ghost but it's been over a year since I got my shadow

[rustic granite]

Even if you one down it's 43 seconds * 80 TOAs for LB, 57.3 minutes, vs 18.5s * 320 terrorbirds, 98.6 minutes... if the Sceptre turns a single run from a failure into a success it's pretty close to breaking even

(and if you two down even if it never saves you once it's a strict time save)

[midnight dome]

It's also nice for monke

Most players will probably get it at the end of the day

I'm biased because mine took 5 hours to get lol

[mortal perch]

need to factor in the time save of having the warped scepter for doing the but damage... ca

(that was a joke by the way)

[tacit crow]

At least sceptre has other uses too.

(Early Colo run + tagging abby demons)

[loud jasper]

I have made the true optimal pvm gear progression chart that utilizes all game mechanics available (may require a sizeable real life income) https://ladlorchart.com/#/customize?token=IOhvjQIzajc

[round knot]

didnt even know u can leech tob purples

[loud jasper]

ohh I should have put tob after like elite void so you get faster points

[round knot]

i think quiver and infernal cape are kinda late, couldnt u put quiver right after d scimmy, piety etc the melee stuff

or is it hard to find a super gigachad colo/inferno runner to do them with terrible gear/stats

[loud jasper]

idk how within the game rules that is

[round knot]

oh yea didnt think this cares about rules

[hollow cobalt]

why would you think that

[round knot]

buying bonds to pay gp to leech raids is allowed but doing the same to pay someone do quiver/inferno isnt?

[hollow cobalt]

if you're playing your own account you can pay people to do stuff on their accounts

[chilly ruin]

account sharing is against the rules

[hollow cobalt]

you can't pay people to play your account for you

[round knot]

ah ok, i thought account sharing is allowed these days

[chilly ruin]

in many cases its fine, it is against the rules though

[loud jasper]

improved version https://ladlorchart.com/#/customize?token=F0_vnwvSFa0

[chilly ruin]

tbow dscim unironically fine for quiver

[hollow cobalt]

more than fine

[chilly ruin]

gotta throw some early mystics chinning in there

[loud jasper]

ohh yeah I should put getting chins before cox because apparently you get a lot more pph inm a 5+95 if you solo chin the mystics/shamans, like up to 300k/hour

[loud jasper]

https://ladlorchart.com/#/customize?token=HCp_5EbImrE

[real yacht]

Ultor ring before burning claws is not the move lol

I loved claws there

[chilly ruin]

thats really your takeaway from the booster chart?

[indigo hollow]

lol

Something about glory into tbow is just sending me

Then I love the stop for an ancient icon before getting a scythe

I guess that’s assuming you get tbow and maul but not a kodai?

[modest remnant]

Whats the reasoning for Master CA being so “late” into progression, is it after all megarares so u can basically do all content depending on ur own skill lvl?

Would think imbued heart grind gets better after doing those CA’s

[hollow cobalt]

What does master cas do for heart

[rustic granite]

Longer thralls at tower nechs!

[loud jasper]

I thought dclaws may be fine

[modest remnant]

Hmm idk why i thought Master CA also increases superior chance nvm

[fossil flame]

having tbow and not doing colo/infernal pre tob is definitely based

[loud jasper]

I figured you want the blowpipe for inferno

[fossil flame]

it matters alot less but ud want bp for tob to anyway even with bow

and tob doesint give anything to make zulrah faster

[loud jasper]

fixed https://ladlorchart.com/#/customize?token=eE_kp3ScrBk

also puts blowpipe before doom since I think tbow zulrah is fine

[fossil flame]

what even is the state of cox boosting though? I heard it got nerfed pretty hard

for purples

[rustic granite]

Where's the cheese

Not unethical enough

Needs cheese transfer

[loud jasper]

im basing my knowledge on this

[rustic granite]

[[rat trap]]

[last echo]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Rat_trap

[rustic granite]

You can transfer cheese to irons with this

[loud jasper]

Ok this is where I draw the line

[quiet schooner]

Is this the cox boosting progression chart

🥱

[opal dagger]

Iron progression 0 integrity %

[fossil flame]

feel like a more realistic approach for people would be to boost for rigour/mystics chinning

dont think ppl can really afford more leeches past that

[noble shell]

Runescape 3

[wraith perch]

I just got my DWH a few days ago, still hunting 2nd synpse + claws. In regards to starting Doom + Yama soon is the order Doom for Boots (Possible Eye, Cloth) > then Yama for 100kc Double DC or is it wise to get Ember and send Yama first for double dc for doom

Im not sure how good Double DC is for Doom

[dusk needle]

Get DC prior to Doom, send your 100 Yama kc first.

[real yacht]

Most will say it doesnt matter so probably just do a mix of both or can just send your 100 yama kc and get it 100% but without zcb you don't really need 2x dc.

[noble shell]

RuneScape 3

[normal prism]

What are you speccing with at this point in the progression on doom?
scobow?
chally?

DC seems pretty minor with those options

[forest knot]

Chally..DC good to sustain spec early waves when sometimes.you get 3-4 chally per level

[polar void]

Theres no point in not getting DC first, it's quick with duos. Having DC lets you delve faster and potentially further with access to constant specs

[hollow cobalt]

if you're following the prog, you don't have any spec weapons at this point

[wraith perch]

I’ll be using Chally and rosewood bp for car? (No knives yet sadly lol)

[polar void]

Even chally you will stall on spec if you don't have DC 1-8

Not a ton but you will

[daring night]

for just spec, rosewood and knives are equal

[wraith perch]

Okay thanks frens, I’ll probably send Yama first after I get emberlight. Any recommendations on mage vs melee methods? Figure mage will make the first 100 kc less painful but I think melee is best for the oath plate grind for the rune save

[opal dagger]

mage phases 1-2 is just trolling imo. Melee for phase 3 is definitely better but has a learning curve.

[hollow cobalt]

I'd mage like one trip and then start trying to melee

And you can always bail if melee goes bad

[polar void]

if you havent done yama youre going to end up maging your first 100 kills unless you research well

start by meleeing as soon as you feel comfortable with basic mechanics until P3, mage P3, then when you feel confident in P3 with magic, start learning donofly and if you fail to execute it, swap back to maging, repeat until you master donofly

[full panther]

whats the consensus on things like nofly and godfly? i was a bit sold on the ideas from being less susceptible to cycle-fuckery

[hollow cobalt]

They will in theory save you a bit of time

In practice this may or may not be true depending on how long it takes to learn

[torn wind]

Is godfly more dps than nofly? I already know nofly fairly well but not sure if I should learn godfly or just go straight to robospear

[radiant pelican]

Fucking araxxor 1/600 is insane rate tbh

[hollow cobalt]

uh

what

[rustic granite]

Fucking araxxor 1/600 is insane rate tbh

[real yacht]

Gregfly was my favorite for solos. 100% consistent cycle with flares. Very easy to learn

[real yacht]

3 tasks for bis melee amulet is definitely alot

[hollow cobalt]

could do that or do like 40 hrs of nex for even less gain

[rustic granite]

Great for rando duos too so you can handle the flares if needed

I use the gregfly pattern but I've had a consistent duo so haven't had to kill the flares in ages

[rustic granite]

You can also fortify your ward!

[real yacht]

This but I always tell the random to handle the flares in p3

Get them extra contribution points

[rustic granite]

Tell them to jump back on the last rock after the second intermission and you'll always come out first, letting you get one extra hit in on the third tick of p3

And if they're a mage and a friend tell them to do it after the first intermission too so you tank p2 and they get the lower mage def

[real yacht]

Almost wish oathplate wasnt finished to mess with some of this

[golden field]

anyone wanna royal titans, first imer

[flint pebble]

Try the official worlds (324, 328, 567, 573), you should be able to find a duo partner outside the boss cave. This thread is for discussing ladlorchart.com.

[buoyant quest]

can I make the most insane suggestion?

notice how all the BIS armour sets are body, legs, helm... can the earlier sets be arragend the same way? crystal, bloodbark, and void specificically with the bowfa, assembler, and gloves filling the bottom right slots of all the squares?

[nocturne ridge]

i think you got it all wrong. its gotta match the bowfa one

https://tenor.com/view/gugo-rungugorun-run-gugo-run-get-up-get-outside-crypto-gif-18138482363125463018

[noble shell]

no sorry

im actually going to change it to randomize the order of the icons in the subsets

[rustic granite]

This thread is for discussing ladlorchart.com.

[noble shell]

RuneScape 3

[full panther]

Hahah yeah i could make this change deffo

[wispy prawn]

how necessary is going for the 4th zenyte? I spooned the first 3 zenytes and would rather avoid doing more demonics if i dont absolutely have to. Im wondering if ill be ok holding off on suffering, I hear its really only QOL at zulrah so not sure if that alone is worth the grind? If theres other good use cases maybe i have to go for that last zenyte?

[silent pasture]

Can have uses going for zhasta and bgs

[midnight dome]

It's a slightly better option between it and rotg and lightbearer for infernal cape

[quick mica]

Id just get it. Never know if they make it relevant in future content and it is decent at a bunch of places.

[strange nexus]

Generally that is the main use, I did my zulrah grind back in the day without it. Its definitely a bit annoying to check your recoil ring strength but its just qol. Outside of zulrah I did fine a few niche uses like gwd and I even used it at inferno before I got ring of the gods. ( with pray regens you might actually want suffering if no lb but minor difference)

Ring would also be good for KQ

[hollow cobalt]

Its pretty quick, might as well just do it and then block em to never look back

[safe apex]

For barrage tasks like dust devils, should I use bloodbark body/legs or proselyte?

[midnight dome]

Dps calc if it gives a max hit

Don't use proselyte though, use monks robes or god robes if you have them

[safe apex]

Ok ty

[rustic granite]

or Zealot

[dreamy whale]

Enjoyed your podcast appearance ladlor!

[full panther]

hahah cheers

[long burrow]

what podcast

[chilly cove]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfCyK7c3VfU

[dreamy whale]

was quite entertaining and refreshing to hear the man himself say just have fun above all and admit the silly inefficient things he's done lol

[quiet schooner]

how u can literally read 99% of reddit comments and theyll say the same thing

[real yacht]

was a great lisen. cool to put a voice to the chart guy. Are you norweigan by chance?

[terse matrix]

what about the Aquanite hopper

[rustic granite]

What ABOUT the Aquanite hopper

[full panther]

am indeed a Norwegian

[full panther]

now fixed

[wispy prawn]

Is there a generally recommended time to go for seers or archers ring or do people go for that where the chart says to go for magus ring which seems super late progression wise, and if thats the case should I just be using suffering for range/mage in the meantime? Im right around the point of finishing up most of my slayer grinds so next up are TOA for lightbearer and then yama/doom

[nocturne ridge]

They are late in the prog because they are quite bad early. Lightbearer is really good, or berserker ring camp. Suffering has it's niche

[wispy prawn]

ah I see so probably need to get on the lb grind then

[nocturne ridge]

Yeah its great for slayer especially barrage tasks and crystal hally spec

[serene egret]

gear doesnt matter for rex, it does for supreme and prime

[chilly cove]

please @full panther my family is dying they dont know that they should grind pegasian boots once they're in ironman retirement

[rustic granite]

They should be as soon as you have prims+treads, if you go for them at all

(they should)

[chilly cove]

true

[real yacht]

Mr mammal and roidie got 4 pairs before they finished oathplate I think we need to do some revisions

[tacit crow]

Unless they give you a max hit at a sufficiently long enough grind (maybe shadow or tbow) I don't see how going for pegasisns directly vs. passive is ever worth it.

They dont give a max hit for TOB blowpiping.

Will have to see what changes with the new ranged ammy

[midnight dome]

A lot of endgame gear doesn't justify the time spent like that

Even stuff like oathplate almost certainly doesn't

[tacit crow]

But there isn't a significant amount of the grind of other endgame gear that can be done passively through the normal playthrough of an account

I believe that's unique to rangers

[midnight dome]

Idk what you mean by that, I got my rangers entirely from passive mediums from skilling

[full panther]

@chilly cove now ur dying family can have some peace hopefully

[chilly cove]

Thank you!!

[buoyant quest]

sees inquisitor orientation

[tacit crow]

Another family is dying.

[rustic granite]

Because it's bis

If you don't want full BIS why are Vambs on the chart? You wouldn't use them for anything

If you remove Vambs, why are Torva and ZCB on the chart? You wouldn't use them for anything

If you remove all Nex drops, why are master CAs on the chart? You wouldn't use them for anything

If you remove master CAs, why heart+Venator Bow? If you remove those two, why the TOA purples? If you remove those, why COX purples?

If the logic is "they give you a max hit at a sufficiently long enough grind" then the most efficient chart is to log out and uninstall at tutorial island

There needs to be a consistent goal that you're working towards

If that goal is full BIS at all pieces of content, items like blood moon need to be added to the retirement home

If the goal is full BIS for all raids, then pegs should be added much earlier

[full panther]

Inquisitor orientation fixed

[tacit crow]

The discussion is placing pegs on the chart vs. in retirement home.

Rangers are the only item in the game that by doing it passively you don't have to do a large part of the grind.

It's not a discussion of if they are ever worth getting.

I'm not saying they aren't worth getting. I'm saying I don't think they are worth actively going for on the chart unless they give a breakpoint before a big grind.

With that being said, I plan on grinding them out anyway after diary cape because I want max boots cause it's BIS.

[rustic granite]

I think if we have AGS on here the bar is below "worth getting", it being earlier is a separate argument

It belongs out of retirement home because it benefits you earlier and doesn't benefit from other drops

[tacit crow]

That's a fair point.

Id defintiely want to see it actually have an impact on a grind to be placed on a chart though.

Like if you aren't getting a max hit anywhere you are wasting time going for it. But for example, if you get a Bofa max hit when salted, place it before shadow,

And the new ranged ammy in 6 months is going to change that place too id imagine

[full panther]

its an interesting point

if pegs give a maxhit, can this save time on grinds more than it'd take to get em?

TOTAL TIME CHART (w.out pegs) + PEGS > TOTAL TIME CHART (with pegs) ?

anyway pegs is canonically and meaningfully bis so it'd make sense to include, but Torva is also only barely in the main-block as it is

its up for negotiation if it moves into retirement home, but for now is there bcs it was the canonical bis and hasn't been re-examined too closely after oathplate

[tacit crow]

I don't know if it would ever impact it that much. It's a tough/impossible calculation (probably out of scope of the chart too)

It will always benefit from delaying as much as possible due to the nature of passive mediums from all parts of the game.

So I think it's a question of how many passive mediums do you expect to generate during the chart. (which is the impossible question because a lot of mediums are from Skilling outside of the chart).

And if you place pegs somewhere would you expect the time they save for the future grind to outweigh the time saved from getting passive mediums for the rest of the chart.

[rustic granite]

This isn't the logic for most other items on the chart

[full panther]

personally im not very motivated to solve the pegs question anyhow

[tacit crow]

I don't think that's answerable without a lot of assumptions. Which is going to be worthless for 90% of the chart-users id imagine

[rustic granite]

Again, if you applied this to the whole chart, the most efficient chart is to log out and uninstall at tutorial island

[chilly ruin]

hey guys i’m ready to start my AGS grind what do i need

[rustic granite]

Black chins and unemployment checks

[full panther]

if you can set your own criterion and aim to solve it as quickly as possible, set the easiest and just log out yes

i recognize the argument and its a real one. it reveals the chart is at the end of the day subjective even when trying hard not to be. its subjective in setting a cutoff point

[chilly ruin]

i dont see how it cant be subjective without a specific defined goal

[rustic granite]

The goal that the chart most closely resembles is getting full BIS for only the three raids as fast as possible, assuming you're good but not amazing at the game; right now BP and Pegs are the biggest outliers

[full panther]

yea your read on what the chart strives for seems fairly spot on

how is bp an outlier? :o

[inland cosmos]

I think pegs falls into a rather weird spot because you technically are still grinding it by just doing medium clues passively

If pegs came exclusively from active clue scroll hunting I think there would be merit in placing it earlier on the chart

[full panther]

as in include ranger boots pre-avernic and cerb somewhere?

for like true-minmax kind of thinking?

[inland cosmos]

I would not place rangers on the chart

Just pegs at cerb step assuming it was efficient

[full panther]

ah i see

[fossil flame]

biggest reason to me to go for them is u cant really speed up the grind after a pretty early point. like i get its not good upgrade but delaying grind hardly makes it faster imo

[inland cosmos]

I agree if it wasn’t possible to get medium clues passively

[tacit crow]

I mean if pegs give you a blowpipe max hit after the new ranged ammy with rune or amethyst darts, I think that's a strong argument for placing them before scythe

[fossil flame]

ive heard though that it does give some insane tbow maxes currently

[full panther]

does pegs pass the smell test with regards to extra time at cerb versus how much it saves?

i dont know from the top of my head how much extra time at cerb you'd be expecting if wanting the pegs

[chilly ruin]

dont think cerb is really the holdup

[full panther]

sure, but if we favorably assume it was, can the pegs be argued for inclusion in chart?

i see this a bit like if it can't, then all the rest of the discussion is not really needed

[inland cosmos]

True

[tacit crow]

Well nowadays we want eternals and prims, how much could expected KC increase by for all 3 instead of 2/3? 100-150? That's 2-3 hours of cerb.

[fossil flame]

how is ward on list but not max thread

[full panther]

so if i did the coupon collector stuff correct, then the kc diff is 170 for 2 boots from cerb vs 3 boots from cerb

[tacit crow]

So still ~3 hours of cerb.

[full panther]

can totally see a maxhit across the raids making up that time tbf

[tacit crow]

A blowpipe max hit will surely save more than 3 hours during scythe grind.

[hollow cobalt]

Im Skeptical of that one

[rustic granite]

If you're assuming maximum skill, Quiver and Infernal Cape should be much much sooner

If you're assuming a new player or someone whose greatest achievement is an Infernal Cape with a TBow or something, BP should be sooner for Doom

BP legitimately saves hours at it

[tacit crow]

If we are assuming you are raiding with other people with similar gear to you on the chart. If you are assuming all trios with 2 scythers, yeah I'd be skeptical too

[hollow cobalt]

20s/raid is the number you'd need for trios with 1/3 mvps

[fossil flame]

I feel like most items prob arent worth getting in general timewise in grandscheme of things. but at same time u can justify them by having infinite long term power

[rustic granite]

Yeah depends on your end goal

Tutorial island log out etc etc

[full panther]

the implication is between xarpus and maiden, thats hard to make up with only a maxhit?

oh and nylo room in there too ig

[rustic granite]

Maiden it can also increase success rate if you're doing 416 or wdr FFA, but idk if it would even save more than one raid on average to scythe rate

Also means 2t purple poison at Verzik p2

[tacit crow]

The lionshare is going to be from maiden and xarp TTK reduction.

Small amount from nylo boss

Maybe an argument for nylo waves but in practice I dont think a max hit is going to ever save you a tick during nylo waves.

[rustic granite]

I'm not arguing for BP saving time at TOB alone, but these two things do add a little bit in its favor

[chilly ruin]

g9 when do we get cloggers guide to ladlor chart?

[rustic granite]

It wouldn't be all that different

[tacit crow]

Btw this is all a hypothetical question. We haven't even checked if BP gets a max hit from new ammy and upgraded treads

[rustic granite]

Pegs and bp would be moved up based on my own opinions more than being a clogger, and the Sepulchre step would become a big line that makes elite clues all solvable

[fossil flame]

im curious by this sort of logic if its even worth getting ultor ring pre scy. feel like u could calc scy timesave on vard vses soot and verzik ring and it be close

just my guess though

[rustic granite]

Isn't Vard timesave harder to calc because 2h means no defender slash defence

[fossil flame]

idk to much variables

[full panther]

this was considered but i couldn't figure out how to go about reasoning about this properly

[fossil flame]

if u wana make it complicated u could try to factor mvp chance hard and then make sra viable

[rustic granite]

+24 ddef vs +8 scythe it looks like

[full panther]

was narrowed down to oathplate first vs. ultor first

[rustic granite]

I have wondered about scumbag strarts, like Verzik p1 seems especially abusable

[midnight dome]

getting good people to raid with > short term mvp snipes imo

[rustic granite]

Yeah when you're able to

[midnight dome]

if you're doing ffa sure why not, do some slight scumbaggery

I shamelessly hit vespula for extra points in wdr

[rustic granite]

If I ever go back to 416 to maximize kills per day I'm definitely bringing a surge pot for p1

And full fursuit

[midnight dome]

oh but thats not scumbaggery imo

that's just meta gameplay

[rustic granite]

I'd just use a single dose though

[midnight dome]

you can use more doses to snipe mvps

claws+zcb on maiden and claws+zcb on nylo king

[rustic granite]

Thinking about it, maybe I could terrorize Bloat

[midnight dome]

or do maul+zcb on maiden if you're feeling generous

[rustic granite]

Bring a million brews and dark bow him while he's active or something

[midnight dome]

people zcb tag in max eff

since you don't have scythe I think it's going to be difficult to get bloat mvps

[rustic granite]

Yeah I'm just spitballing

[desert flume]

||npc contact stall + pneck kill everyone at bloat||

[midnight dome]

whenever I did 416 I tried to strike a balance between greeding and helping team

so I think maul + zcb xarpus for example is a legit strat

[tacit crow]

I don't think SRA will ever be viable.

Even if venator and bellator ring got giga buffed. Odds are you are going to miss at least 1/4, probably 2/4 of the axe going for all 4 DT2 rings.

That's gonna be 30-60 hours spent on an item outclassed by scythe in 99% of content.

[midnight dome]

would be funny if raids 4 npcs are 1x1s

I don't think that's gonna happen but it would be funny

[fossil flame]

my only reasoning for that was to snipe mvps giga hard. but even then itd only work with no scys and idt mvp bonus even then would save time on sra. but just thought it could be interesting in extreme circumstances

[rustic granite]

I think if you're a clogger and you spooned both the melee pieces it's fine to get

If you're not a clogger you lose more time at Levi+Whisperer than you save at TOB

If you don't spoon the melee pieces you want scythe first

[fossil flame]

venator gives bp max right?

in void

[rustic granite]

Do we have a council fight

ig there's Vanguards

3 is like the bare minimum for "council"

[fossil flame]

even on vard sra is like 2% better at max defense

if u have scy ud prob get by unless its 1x1

[rustic granite]

Yeah thinking about raid bosses in other MMOs the only time they're what OSRS would classify as 1x1 are council fights

Or like, an add that doesn't live for long (like Verzik's red nylos) but it would be hard to justify bringing SRA for that

If reds were 1x1 you probably wouldn't

(because of how SRA stacks need to build up and drop off)

[fossil flame]

theres 2 reasons i just dont see it. ppl love mrares to much esp scy noones really cared scy beats sra so often they see it as it should be better. other reason thematically very small npcs I think will be hard for them make apart from minions. bosses would feel unthreatining if it was 1x1

[desert flume]

they could make a 1x1 base enemy that spreads out and up visually

like a genie in a jar

[rustic granite]

Well it would work for a council fight

Like all six Barrows Brothers at once and with actual mechanics

Vanguards is the only thing like that in OSRS raids I think

Has to be at least 3 bosses at once (most I've seen is 16), each needs to be individually named

Usually all of them have at least one unique mechanic each, sometimes but rarely with shared mechanics between them

[fossil flame]

will see ig it really depends what they do

2 bosses they very soft revealed atleast firstglance seemed anti sra imo

[real yacht]

https://tenor.com/view/despair-suffer-suffering-sad-sad-quotes-gif-14270258133567956444

This gif feels right for this last discussion. Enjoyed reading it all tho nice to see this chat alive again

[forest knot]

It (the ranger grind) benefits massively from the passive medium clues you get. In fact, I'd argue it's one of the grinds that benefits the most out of any item from delaying it.

[rustic granite]

As long as you're doing your passive mediums sure, delay it to after 99 slayer or whenever you stop killing dagannoths etc

You get close to 0 from bosses on the chart

So I guess on the same area or right after Feros

You get like a dozen from Vard+Duke going for the rings

[winter pumice]

Yeah I don’t like doing clues so didn’t get many from early slayer so hoping I’ll do it during dt2

[rustic granite]

Even if you super highball how long it takes to get a medium you lose out on like half an hour of clue gathering in return for pegs stats at COX TOB TOA Inferno etc

[slender crane]

what are the unlocks worth getting at sepulchre?

[inland cosmos]

focus > instance > ring > hammer > grapple

Assuming you start at floor 3

[forest knot]

but you get billions doing afk stars for varla key pieces 🙂

[real yacht]

Shooting stars drop mediums?

[rustic granite]

Yes, gathering skills and sailing randoms give clues of all tiers

[real yacht]

Sick ill finish rangers throughout the school year

[rustic granite]

bwans are the best afk method, and tick manip gem rocks are one of if not the best active methods I think?

among the ones that give clues of random tiers

[soft rune]

Just coming back from a long break. I see the scythe has moved up a lot since I last checked the guide, what's the reason? Just curious

[hollow cobalt]

No reason to push it any later

[soft rune]

I think it was shadow -> tbow -> scythe before

[hybrid blaze]

there was a long discussion on scything megascale cox

which requires scythe. dhl is also no longer on the route

[inner forge]

Looking at the chart I assume scything scales won, but scales where you DO have to use a lance for the 0 dmg methods like 4 + 27s are even better p/h. Were those taken into consideration at the time?

[hollow cobalt]

you can scy+nally

[tacit crow]

Plus the relative points/hr increase from those methods aren't going to outweigh the time spent getting a lance.

[soft rune]

This is the crazy big picture efficiency stuff I like to read

[upper pike]

question about the chart: why the bgs on the list?

a DWH works in most situations you're using a BGS (outside of retirement home solo Corp), as will the elder maul you're getting later right?

and cutting out the BGS means you're moving any Gaardor grind up from the zenyte/slayer era into the retirement home era, as the bandos armour gets skipped for oathplate in the current run right?

[hollow cobalt]

Tob, toa

[upper pike]

you can do tob just as well with a dwh right?
and the big toa/tob (mega rares) grind lies post-yama, meaning you could get away (duos) with a horn+dwh combo?

i know a bgs isn't a long grind per-se, but it feels kinda unneeded in 2026, especially in the location it's at. i'd personally opt to move it to either retirement home OR after Yama (right before the shadow grind) if you opt to just solo toa

[indigo hollow]

Getting fang and lb without a BGS sounds not so fun

Not a big tobber but I’m pretty sure at least some people on a team need a BGS to be able to get bosses to zero def

[upper pike]

i did get spooned, but i got LB/Fang in 22x 200invo toa

[indigo hollow]

Yeah that’s not the norm

[upper pike]

but still, doing 150-300 invo honestly doesn't feel bad without bgs

[indigo hollow]

Well ideally you do well above that for the fang and lb grind

[upper pike]

i agree that in solo 400-500toa, a bgs would definitely be a item on the shopping list (especially pre-fang)

on the other hand, should you duo 400-500 toa, a yama horn + a dwh works just as well. and there's always the bone dagger

[indigo hollow]

I don’t think the chart should be assuming you have a duo with X piece of gear at any point

[upper pike]

I don't think the chart should be assuming you're strictly solo for every single possible piece of content you'd solo, but more assume you might have copies of yourself at the same progression point.

and in my personal view, going to gaardor for between 500-1000kc for a hilt (and thus practially also getting full bandos) is kinda moot, when the existing paths of yama/dwh already offers a functional equal

[hollow cobalt]

You can complete the raid without reducing any defense, but you'll have a much better time if you have DWG+bgs

[upper pike]

welll yeah. but is the time saved doing the raid with the bgs+dwh more than the time spend to obtain the bgs and doing the raid without the bgs?

[hollow cobalt]

If you start doing the math like that basically no items become worth getting

[forest knot]

Simple answer is: if you plan on doing 100% of your tobs with people you know where you are certain someone (or 2 ppl) else will bring bgs, then sure you can do tob without one

But going with randoms and ending up in teams where you're blowpiping non 0def xarpus/maiden is ass

I don't see doing all of your tobs with people you know as realistic so I still think bgs is worth getting before tob

[hybrid blaze]

I am personally strongly against arguments of the form "once I raid I will recruit a teammate who has item X therefore it is less useful for me to get it and it tips the scales to skip it instead". Actually even stronger, I'm unhappy with any decision that decides on whether to obtain/skip an item that critically depends on a raid strategy.

[indigo hollow]

See: DHL skip for scaled CoX

[umbral pasture]

even the "have clones of yourself" assumption still leaves you in a not-ideal position for tob, you want both items for max def reduction in that raid

[indigo hollow]

Also where’s the horn coming from at Yama if your duo is a clone of yourself 🤔

[umbral pasture]

for toa i think it's a tall order to assume you have access to similarly geared teammates at all times, you really want to be able to solo that raid

more specifically, you want to be able to solo it at rl 350+ before getting fang, finding a teammate for which is an even taller order

[chilly ruin]

have friends strategy

[indigo hollow]

*Have friends who aren’t hard carrying you with a shadow and dominating the points

[umbral pasture]

yep. emphasis on "similarly geared" because unlike ToB, ToA does punish you for getting carried

[quiet chasm]

On the note of similar gear, what’s the duo yama melee spec meta, dump ember light specs hope you get 3 hits,

[tacit crow]

Does DHL even qualify here? cause scythe is still better than lance for non scaled too.

[fossil flame]

do you feel that way because the items are unrealistic to get/assume or because the items arent as good as they are made out to be?

[hybrid blaze]

No

[neat sun]

What is the purpose of having scythe and avernic in the same tile? I see how avernic affects toa but scythe doesn’t right? Could it be avernic —> scythe/shadow —> magus ring —> chambers? Just thinking it’s just as efficient to send both tob and toa at the same time

[quiet chasm]

Think it just means those are the only two useful drops from tob

[long burrow]

Does tob mvp system have a low weighting advantage? Grinding tob right now so curious, running with a lot of scythers

[hybrid blaze]

tob only has 'mvp' vs 'not mvp' for weights. If you have even one scythe teammate and you do not have one, probably you're not mvp on all the rooms where scythe is good (I think that's all of them? idr)

more teammates having scythes doesn't really matter beyond that point, in fact it's beneficial because you get carried faster

[umbral pasture]

ideally you open with horn+dwh/maul, if no horn then it's emberlight and/or BGS specs (not sure exactly what the meta is there)

[quiet chasm]

Right but assuming a little bit from above convo, at this point of guide neither iron would have horn. Very beneficial to have a main that can horn elder as you burning claw spec but that’s in the have friends category lol

[umbral pasture]

well a yama duo with horn is far easier to find than a toa duo with a horn that is willing and able to do 350+ and won't hog points

[forest knot]

realistically you can somewhat reliably mvp maiden over scythers if youre freezing and also p1 verzik if you bring lb+spec pot, but thats about it

[forest knot]

https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Calculator:Theatre_of_Blood_loot
play around with this, it will answer all your questions

[midnight dome]

Bgs is slightly better than emberlight

[quiet chasm]

I do have bgs if this an actual play

[midnight dome]

I used it

[quiet chasm]

What does the bgs need to hit to match emberlights 15%?

[midnight dome]

Downside is +1 inventory slot, upside is potential for really fast kills and extra spec that you can sgs or claw with

[midnight dome]

Idr by heart but dps calc could answer that

[quiet chasm]

33.75 dmg?

225 def

[midnight dome]

Spec accuracy × % drain

[quiet chasm]

I also have claws and sgs (love me a long trip)

[midnight dome]

I don't know if there any mathed it out completely but I liked bgs + sgs

Nowadays with more tele scrolls it might be better to claw

[quiet chasm]

I only have one blade😭 yeah claw is great

[midnight dome]

But I just like camping full hp more, leaves room for mistakes

[midnight dome]

Can't you swap during the kill? 😉

[quiet chasm]

I mean….yes would be interesting to say to the least

[midnight dome]

Well you can, the question is if you want to

[polar void]

Bros against having a clan

I do think that BGS is close to a waste of time with dwh being as good as it is, soulflame horn + oath existing. Having BGS I don't think it's as good as people crack it up to be outside ToA and even then yeah someone else can spec and you can dump vw instead, or just use VW because it's cracked

[rustic granite]

If anything DWH is the skipable one

BGS skip seems kinda cope with future content and no powercrept version

If you BGS COX until Maul you can skip DWH

Afaik the closest DWH's come to beating Maul is Araxxor and even then Maul still beats it there, just by a bit

[polar void]

Not having dwh for araxxor or cox sounds bad

[chilly ruin]

bgs or b claws are fine in solo cox

[rustic granite]

Pecan bread did some math that showed it being real within the context of just the COX but idk if the margin was wide enough to account for Araxxor

[chilly ruin]

wont speak for megascale cox chart is built around idk what u do for specs there

[fossil flame]

might depend on megascale u do i dont know 3+x but for duo u both dwh with alt horning u through door

im sure bgs is fine sub but not ideal

[polar void]

Either way, you want one of the two for yama

[fossil flame]

elight spec is pretty solid imo for yama

[polar void]

I agree, if both people elight spec you're fairly likely to have full def reduc

[fossil flame]

u can prob skip but u just have to rag ur team a bit at tob to like having dwh is nice for things but at same time u can play around it/take a slight L

[polar void]

Dwh was also pretty fat at spindel

Which is a 1/912 drop so no slouch of a grind

[rustic granite]

Never brought it to Spindel

Didn't know it was good when hunting VW, now I have Chainmace

It's not a Yanille to TOB level mistake but wcyd

[fossil flame]

with these stats bgs seems like it could extremely viable esp with slay helm boost for arraxor

[rustic granite]

Yeah especially if you route Oathplate before it

[hollow cobalt]

Dwh is a much more questionable grind than bgs for sure

[ember summit]

I thought bclaws were better at arraxor than DWH? I dont have it yet but thought it was minimal difference for spec

I have been using claws cause its all I have atm haha

[indigo hollow]

Yeah I think araxxor is a bclaws situation

[hollow cobalt]

Depends on your main weapon I think

[ember summit]

I have zammy hasta

[craggy granite]

Isn’t Yama a longer grind than Rancour? And Yama scales a lot off of str bonus

[rustic granite]

idk

[craggy granite]

Feels like doing Yama before Rax can’t be optimal

imo doesn’t matter too much

[indigo hollow]

I was getting bclaws as better even with a hasta in my sims, but grain of salt bc it’s easy to mess something up in a sim

I’m not taking enrage into account or anything like that either

[polar void]

Possible strat since oath makes it so tent whip overtakes hasta crush

[indigo hollow]

Does it really? Damn

[polar void]

Yup lol

It might be only with rancour though, not tort

So, they'd likely just be equal

[indigo hollow]

Well that might not be the most relevant comp then lol

[chilly ruin]

i did some saeldor araxxor so that sounds plausible but i needed dwh specs for it to win

[frail sonnet]

what does this mean

[polar void]

I was using dwh

[rustic granite]

bank sand from the yanille sandpit at tob bank until 94 crafting

[frail sonnet]

holy tech

[upper pike]

imo if you have dwh bgs becomes questionable, and if you got bgs, dwh becomes questionable

also jagex doesn't seem inclined to make a lot of places that require bgs/dwh/emaul specs no more

[hollow cobalt]

maul exists though

[upper pike]

OPC maul exists, but maul is as rare as a tbow

[hollow cobalt]

if you're gonna grind something, at least go for something that's bis somewhere

[upper pike]

right now the chart picks up a bgs alongside it's first zenyte. and than later on with the slayer grind asks you to go get dwh

so i see how dwh could easily be removed from the chart, on the other other hand. could make it a "choice node" (aka tick box if you get one of either bgs/dwh)

[hollow cobalt]

kinda want both to not be a tob terrorist

[upper pike]

well...... tob sits post-yama right, on the way to get full oathplate you will find a horn, that's just something that happens. and i think a horn+dwh functions just as well

[hollow cobalt]

that is just incorrect

[rustic granite]

How many hammers does it take to bring Maiden to 0 def?

[hollow cobalt]

just get your friends to do all the specing for you etc. Why even bother with dwh

[chilly ruin]

just be a leech is a pretty poor assumption for a chart

[midnight dome]

1-2 is typical

[chilly ruin]

add spec xfer icon

[midnight dome]

depending on how many ralos specs your mager wants to spend

[rustic granite]

No no you misunderstand

We're only bringing horns and DWHs to the raid, no BGSes

[midnight dome]

ew

[rustic granite]

How many hammers do you need

[upper pike]

What if: bone dagger?

[midnight dome]

bro

[chilly ruin]

bone dagger can only reduce def once so its still a lot of hammers

[rustic granite]

Hmm, it looks like after the 13th hammer her defence goes to 3, and after that it can't go any lower

[hollow cobalt]

actually why bother with tob gear at all, can be donewith a rune scim and ysb, should be fine

[midnight dome]

yea I'm not a big fan of ragging team content because of skipping some short ish grinds but it's really up to you

and what your teammates tolerate

[hollow cobalt]

just become streamer, then you can pull up with whatever dogshit you want

[fossil flame]

is there really no contrubtion affect at tob? still get confused how it works. but dont u get like 11-12 points after bloat if u play a bit vses like 7?

thats what I hear to just curious

[midnight dome]

I think there is a line where it's not reasonable but dwh/bgs aren't it imo

I would say it's not reasonable to expect irons to have dragon ammo always for example

although I do personally use it at tob

[rustic granite]

Only room by room MVP

Verzik counts as 3 rooms

[hollow cobalt]

like whip, pipe, dwh, bgs and zenytes, the rest is fuck all

[rustic granite]

Also dying is bad

[upper pike]

Well... If we're talking about cutting a thing out, what would happen if you cut out the dwh from the chart, keeping the bgs

[rustic granite]

If you camp COX for Maul this works yes

[fossil flame]

so if u dont mvp and dont die ur points would be same with rune scimmy and scythe nearly?

[rustic granite]

Yes

Not just nearly

[hollow cobalt]

not nearly, identical

[midnight dome]

you'd have to find specific teams for tob that make up for you missing dwh

[rustic granite]

Exactly

[hollow cobalt]

you either mvp the room or you don't

[midnight dome]

it's not a huge deal though

if you're not trying to be efficient

[upper pike]

Actually, outside of tob and high scale toa, what content gets affected if you got neither bgs nor dwh

[rustic granite]

Faster kph and smaller team size speed up the grind

[midnight dome]

arraxor, cox

[rustic granite]

Spindel

[midnight dome]

I guess you can solo cox with bclaws

[chilly ruin]

b claws also ok for araxxor

[midnight dome]

but any form of team cox you're kinda trolling

[hollow cobalt]

no dwh is also tob terrorism a bit

less bad than no bgs

but still not ideal

[midnight dome]

yeah it's annoying to play around as a teammate

[fossil flame]

feel like anything thats good at a single raid is prob just to good to pass up on in general

[midnight dome]

and if I had the choice I'd rather have someone with dwh than without

[rustic granite]

Ok time to not get whip for TOB

[chilly ruin]

saeldor havers winning again

[midnight dome]

umm acshually vardorvis

[upper pike]

Nally tob?

[midnight dome]

nally works but is awkward and takes longer to get

[upper pike]

You're already doing raxx tho, in 600 raxx you're likely to get a nally

[hollow cobalt]

you might, you might not

[midnight dome]

sure if you get one you could use it

[hollow cobalt]

or just you know... use a whip