Gear Progression Chart

[hollow cobalt]

[craggy granite]

That’s fire

Could be neat if certain Skips also had that

Would need to really make the logic clear though

[full panther]

the dhl <-> scythe situation is a bit uniquely linear, so its a simple rule

[polar void]

If I hide sep, does bruh appear behind me and shake his head in disappointment?

Like that you're adding new features ladlor, looks neat

[full panther]

Added "notified bruh that user skipped sepulchre" to backlog of requested features

[rustic granite]

tbow jumps up two rows

[craggy granite]

Can you do a webhook that names and shames whoever skips Sep

[karmic fossil]

goes against the privacy policy smh

[tacit crow]

Maybe we can get stats on which percentages of regions hide specific tiles at some point? That could be interesting

[full panther]

current infrastructure cannot support things like these atm

(to my knowledge)

[robust roost]

if you hide bowfa it's replaced with a link to the "how to deiron" wiki page

[polar void]

Integrity change

[stoic chasm]

Absolutely

[dusky fog]

Yes this is why I was confused. Some of the inclusions feel random

[pearl quail]

Rev weps don't show up for me when i select retirement home. 🙁

[full panther]

yeah, something went wrong when i tried to replace them with their upgraded counterparts. Will be looking to fix tomorrow

in the meantime, theyre not there

lmk if theres in general something missing in that part of the chart that you'd like to see :)

[pearl quail]

Initial image shows Arcane Spirit Shield but it is no longer there either. Could we add the fortified ward in lieu of the arcane there? Also, would SRA be considered retirement home item? It's not essential for the main progression but would be a cool item to have after.

[full panther]

Yep fortified ward is replacing the arcane spirit shield

[hushed ingot]

• require discord authentication for chart use to "sync across devices"
• really just gives you a dunce hat role in this discord if you hide sep

[loud jasper]

Virtus robes and the soulreaper axe in the retirement home category?

[fossil flame]

ancestral and scythe are better items and not worth the time getting them instead of sending more chambers/tob

[full panther]

i could see virtus robes being an ok fit

sra as trophy item there is a bit more contentious prob

[loud jasper]

yeah I realize now soulreaper axe is not bis anywhere

[umbral pasture]

and virtus is a longer grind than SRA 😂

[hollow cobalt]

they definitely shouldnt be on the main prog

[strange nexus]

Highest would be cutting gems you buy from tzhaar but it requires money and a fire cape id only do if you are a limited build iron with sub 40 def.

Also requires a gem bag

[strange nexus]

I mean virtus has more uses in the retirement home category then most items but I think its still to niche/minor to be included in the main progress category

I probably wouldnt even include SRA in that category cus that point you may aswell put random clogs maybe gilded clog staff or something along those lines and I feel thats not in the spirit of the chart.

[forest knot]

where's moon helmet on the progression??

[strange nexus]

‼️

[tacit crow]

Technically highest DPS on 1x1 and 2x2 melee targets

[strange nexus]

In reality bis at vardorvis thats about it?

Should clog 200m att & str but I guess if you dont care about clogging or pets you could use it for some melee tasks?

[robust roost]

virtus would be good for retirement home

they are "bis" for a couple things

inferno/tob freeze come to mind

deserves to be there just as much as arcane/fward imo

[hollow cobalt]

(not actually used at tob)

[robust roost]

is it not? full virtus ward has the same eye max as full anc ward with +1 barrage max

why wouldn't you use it

[hollow cobalt]

you dont take anc either

just not very useful

[robust roost]

there's nothing else to do with the space as a freezer

you're not taking like oath helm bellator over mage dmg switches

[frail sonnet]

I feel like you binned something important to be saying that

freezer is always down bad on invy space

[robust roost]

ye because of all the mage gear they bring

[hollow cobalt]

those are about equally useless

idk what id bank here for more mage gear (nothing) https://i.imgur.com/TBGCYcx.png

[frail sonnet]

if you wanna fill a spare space with something useful, bring an ancient sceptre in addition to ur 15% weapon

[hollow cobalt]

that;s probably even more useless

[frail sonnet]

misinfo

[robust roost]

why do you have sulphurs + heart

[hollow cobalt]

because mfrz?

[frail sonnet]

ancient sceptre is definitely more useful than that if mfrz

[robust roost]

you'll use an inv slot for heart over 1 dose menaphite but won't bring a piece of virtus

that seems sus idk

maybe times have changed but i dont recall heart (or scepter tbh) ever being regarded as higher value than virt

[hollow cobalt]

Extra mage gear is just omegacope

well before you needed more mage gear to hit 100%

so you took top because it was required

now it does nothing

[robust roost]

think void mage ward kodai was enough to hit 100%

[hollow cobalt]

yep and that was also fine

[robust roost]

this is for 4s stacking presumably

[hollow cobalt]

yes

[frail sonnet]

and u dont wanna bring a sceptre for that?

[robust roost]

if you're all zcb pushing you probably don't need it

[robust roost]

where do you get to zcb with this

[hollow cobalt]

you never needed it

even like 100 years ago 4s was super consistent 15s or better

[hollow cobalt]

maiden, (optional bloat), nylo

[robust roost]

oh you dont bring anguish, i see

what would you bank from that for mage gear if you needed more

id have to add top to hit freeze

[spice cloud]

Hello checking the chart its preaty awesome didint know where to progress now have a new goal.

But wanted to ask.
Whats your opinion on hasta? As i understand its for toa till fang or it has different reason?

The main point of question do i need hasto if i have sealdor?

[chilly cove]

hasta is also your go to crush weapon even after you get fang from toa

saeldor is slightly worse than hasta at toa iirc, but very close to it

if you are just trying to do some toa with saeldor, that's just fine

[robust roost]

hasta is where it is i believe mainly because of wildly bosses

however

since you don’t get lance anymore

i could see an argument where you skip hasta and vw and just use bclaws for all vw content

alternatively get a zombie axe and use that for vw

i think that takes less time to get than hasta? uncertain

could also skip vw still and zaxe baba akkha until black gem

[rustic granite]

significantly yes

very similar dps on Calvar'ion and Spindel, epsecially without max melees

[robust roost]

i wonder if earthbound tecpatl is comparable to zaxe at toa lol

[rustic granite]

I think hasta skip is a little cope though, you're banking on getting Scythe faster than Jagex releases more crush content you want it for and gimping yourself at wildy bosses + Araxxor right?

[rustic granite]

it rolls accuracy twice and TOA is one of the places you're least accurate at in the entire game

[hollow cobalt]

could also just get a bludgeon

but zammy has shards/hilt/staff

[rustic granite]

yeah the other thing is that BGS is very important and you're unlikely to get 3/3 shards from just Graardor

[hollow cobalt]

idk about unlikely

but not guaranteed for sure

[rustic granite]

I don't think I got all three until I was like 11/16 on GWD uniques I think

I'd be surprised if the odds are above 50%

[hollow cobalt]

pretty sure it's about 50% on the dot

[robust roost]

hasta and bgs are on the same block right

guess you could play it by ear

[quiet schooner]

Zgs actually good now too

[noble shell]

Okay but how does this translate to RuneScape 3

[rustic granite]

Glory -> Crystal staff -> Berserker Ring -> all the necromancy stuff -> skill for half a year while doing reaper for eof -> pick a style, look up its bis, farm that boss with necromancy

[noble shell]

I don't believe you

[desert flume]

Gnomonkey told me rush gwd2 with crystal hally so I’ll just do that in rs3 instead

[chilly ruin]

z axe araxxor super miserable. maybe hasta isn’t an overall timesave but might be mental save

[robust roost]

is it? hasta is like...idk ~6 save per kill, including the tick you have to miss to stomp during enrage

maybe ~7s if you have to miss the tick twice

[chilly ruin]

hasta is still pretty bad but z axe def felt much worse to me

[robust roost]

but im not sure how it makes the boss feel any different mentally

if anything i would have more fun using zaxe

bigger number more happy chemical

4t enrage is less annoying to do maybe

ive only ever done scythe rax so can’t comment

[chilly ruin]

yeah when i went back with scythe it was a very different boss

i had some 4 min kills with z axe

[robust roost]

jfc

[chilly ruin]

can we just route rax post scythe

[frozen olive]

I had sra, but my hasta test kills were like 1:15-1:30 ish

you gotta be giga melee scuffed

[robust roost]

700 tob no rancour sounds like ass cancer

[hollow cobalt]

I have always been "dt2 is post-scy" gang

[robust roost]

Including ultor?

[rustic granite]

Lasting longer = more poison on ground, 5t means more annoying enrage, both combined means some amount of kiting during enrage to make free area, also lower DPS means you can get 3+ Araxyte spawns during enrage and have to kill a couple instead of ignoring them, which drags the fight out even further, which makes more poison...

Extremely annoying boss to bring a scuffed setup to

[hollow cobalt]

I didn't find zaxe that bad

it was kinda annoying compared to inq+scy

but meh

[rustic granite]

Yeah depends on the rest of your setup

Doing it at the same time in progression as you would normally it shouldn't be so low DPS it turns into a nightmare

[unborn night]

Why is fang before oathplate and not with the shadow step these days

Seems like fangs not really used in the content leading up to shadow no?

[rustic granite]

You ran out of prayer pots

[unborn night]

Huh

[rustic granite]

Must be fang hyda+cox

[fossil flame]

fangs for hydra good melee xp but dps wise its pretty similar to bowfaing it

[unborn night]

Ahh i finished hydra in 70kc

[robust roost]

fang hydra is better dps than bowfa last i checked

and you can do it without losing ticks

lets you use dps specs too

bclaws

[unborn night]

Is it worth doing yama or tob first for avernic??

[rustic granite]

gotta be yama right

if you have everything else for both

[unborn night]

Is yama solos or dup better

For uniques

[rustic granite]

about the same

solos have more uptime on the boss but duos get more lockboxes per hour

[unborn night]

Okay tyty

[rustic granite]

yeet

[robust roost]

duos have significantly more uptime on the boss, i think

unless im just really bad at soloing idk, i can do 2 kills max before banking, and if i make any mistakes the 2nd kill is a bit sketch

duo you can do 6+ kills per trip pretty consistently, more with supply drops

and if you do altless solos you have to waste a bunch of spec potentially not getting any drain

[rustic granite]

I haven't done a ton of soloing myself but I think sgs helps with trip length

[robust roost]

you barely get any spec to spend on sgs if you're doing your own specs

unless you get incredibly lucky with bgs

[rustic granite]

then if your duo banks fast enough it should be better yeah

[midnight dome]

alting not worth for solos imo

you lose time for your alt to come in each kill and it steals contribution

I found 2 kill trips fine, you get a tele scroll every 3rd kill so banking is not even that big of a deal

I just did duos when I had someone from clan willing to go with me otherwise solo

[robust roost]

you lose like 10 seconds for your alt to run in to horn maul, and you get the horn benefit + a bunch of extra free spec for yourself

actually

[midnight dome]

you also lose an oath shard ime

[robust roost]

you lose like 2 seconds lol

maybe 10 off hte second kill

first kill the alt just runs in with you

[midnight dome]

when I tested it it really didn't end up making any difference

[robust roost]

it was a very large difference for me

sometimes my specs miss

sometimes they hit and do no dmg

all times im wasting at least 50% of my own spec, often more

i see no contest

[midnight dome]

yeah but losing 8% of your shards makes it just break even again imo

[robust roost]

another reason why soloing at all is just omega trolling

[midnight dome]

its not

[robust roost]

unless there's 0 alternative

[midnight dome]

I was averaging 5:10 solos and 2:30 duos

really small difference

[robust roost]

that doesn't include banking time

also doesn't include the 0 contribution toward lockboxes

[midnight dome]

yeah I don't disagree that duos are better

I just don't think solos are that much worse that it's trolling

especially when you have to spend 10mins atleast waiting for someone to show up and then they go and take pee breaks etc

maybe you have different duos though

[robust roost]

usually im the one taking the piss/drink break

tbh

[north acorn]

what gear are you bringing to get avg 5:10min solo time?

[midnight dome]

full oath, bandos, bgs, burning claws

I wasn't getting that at the start lol

[loud jasper]

I doubt 8% less shards evens out getting an elder maul spec and 100% accuracy spec with burning claws

[midnight dome]

if you're assuming 5:10 per kill thats like adding 24 seconds to every kill

[loud jasper]

oh is it 8% less of all loot?

[midnight dome]

I'm not sure how much less it is

you do get only 11 shards instead of 12

[loud jasper]

seems like loot scales linearly based on damage done, so maybe the shard thing is a breakpoint so it goes down by 1 but other loot isnt impacted as much

[midnight dome]

so average maul hit is 25 which would be 1% contribution

I'm not sure if there is some sort of minimum contribution

[loud jasper]

you would be doing 99% contribution so you get 99% of the loot

[midnight dome]

but since shards are the most likely way you'll finish your set I think it's fair to assume shards as the deciding factor

[woven nova]

correct me if im wrong but i thought burn damage was lost

[midnight dome]

that's assuming your goal is the set ofc, not greenlog

fair assumption imo

you go on rate for shards for an item when you're on rate for 2.5 uniques iirc

[loud jasper]

so it would make you do the boss for 8% longer in the case that you have gotten 2 unique pieces done before getting enough shards for 1 piece. But if you only have one unique at that point it would be the same or if you get 3 unique pieces done before enough shards for one

[midnight dome]

yeah kind of, but there is also the possibility of getting only 1 unique by the time you have enough to make the other 2

in which case it matters again

you need to roll 5.5 uniques on average to get every armour piece. This is just all rough napkin math but it was enough to convince me to not bother with an alt

[rustic granite]

getting your first piece sooner gives you more dps for the rest of the grind

[robust roost]

what if you're 1.2k with 3 chests

[midnight dome]

break down chests to get more shards

[robust roost]

will do in another 180 shards or so

[craggy granite]

Would doing TOB for avernic defender get that +2 str bonus faster than going for rancour?

Basically does doing TOB to get scythe get you an upgrade similar to rancour without the time to go rancour?

I think that I see myself doing tob in void with torture for Avernic defender, and then Yama & Ultor before Scythe

And then that gets a Scythe for Araxxor + Hydra

And do Rax per vibes with Hasta when doing slayer

[robust roost]

does that mean you're postponing rancour all the way until avernic in the chart or

are you just doing tob way earlier (ie without oathplate/infernal/feros)

rancour is also +5 more accuracy over avernic and its str bonus applies to claws/chally where avernic doesn't

minor detail but it is better in every way

and i would never want to skip a bunch of pre-tob gear just for avernic

i'd rather do yama before tob and i'd rather do rax before yama

[craggy granite]

I’m basically thinking sending void tob when people in the clan are doing it post doom & Zulrah

Keep doing slayer while that.

Then once I get defender, tob is completely on hold until Oathplate + Ultor

I’m personally going Inferno & Colo before Doom

Ill do Rax, Cerb, etc when I have the tasks for slayer, but I’m going to be also sending TOBs

Basically trying to be able to get into TOBs whenever I’ve got the chance as soon as I can while doing slayer is the thought

[robust roost]

eh, works

you're losing ~30s per raid if you do trios

just off of sote/verzik

possibly a bunch off bloat as well, tiny bit off nylo

(if you send before getting oath/rancour first)

so you'll avg between 64-85 raids on avg depending on mvps and deaths

losing at worst an hour doing tob before rax/yama, and making back some of that time with avernic

[polar void]

Rancour is disgusting, should be a huge priority item

[hollow cobalt]

This does not sound right

[robust roost]

it may not be exactly, depends on what gear your team has

the relative timeloss is obv lower if they have better gear

substantially lower if they both have scythes

[hollow cobalt]

How did you get 30s

[robust roost]

combined the timeloss of sote, p2 and p3 and divided it by 3

which again i now realize isn't accurate unless you're raiding with people in the same gear

[hollow cobalt]

So that's if your whole team upgrades the same gear

[robust roost]

if you're calculating for the whole team there would be no divide by 3

oop void tent was on accurate

[hollow cobalt]

No the first divide by 3 is because you aren't soloing the room lol

[robust roost]

yeah so you divide the ttk by 3 because you're only taking 1/3rd of that time to kill it

or did you think i meant dividing dps by 3

[hollow cobalt]

So that gives you the difference if your whole team upgrades from void to oath rancour

If you want the difference of 1 person upgrading you divide by 9

(or it's close enough)

[robust roost]

give my aneurism a moment to process this

if you were to divide a boss's health into thirds, one of which is your potion of the boss to kill

then whatever dps upgrade you individually gain should translate 1:1 to how fast you're killing your portion of the boss, and then that adds onto whatever else is left

this is adding up as 1/3rd of your dps gain coming off of the ttk

what am i missing that's making this wrong

wait no i think i get it

the overall ttk has to be divided by 3 first because 3 people are hitting it, then you divide again by 3 for individual upgrades

i hate math

i need food

[hollow cobalt]

Yes

[robust roost]

not that avernic does really anything whatsoever at rax

unless you don't have +1 str pants, then it's a max

do we have an opinion on the obby legs filler

[toxic harbor]

Is Sepulchre worth doing without addy nails? I can't remember why I'm thinking addy nails were better for it.

[woven nova]

addy nails + teak planks or rune nails + mahog planks

second option if u have access, if not prob train smithing for the first if u don’t have it

[toxic harbor]

Why over just mith nails + oak planks?

[woven nova]

the con xp is good

[hybrid blaze]

more cons xp

[woven nova]

from the bridges

[toxic harbor]

Ahh primarily just for con then, cool.

OK 4 more smithing levels to go then.

Not like I don't need them anyway.

[molten crow]

is early lightbearer for chally specs during slayer and ca points?

[fossil flame]

yes but I dont get the ca point part

[robust roost]

maybe you're meant to do a bunch of CA's at toa

while grinding the lb/thread

[craggy granite]

ty for running those numbers, I’ll probably check my options at various points and see at what point joining TOBs is worth it for me

The overall difference is honestly less than I expected though

[robust roost]

if you look further down

the numbers i ran were atrociously off

lol

[craggy granite]

Yeah, you were estimating 3x longer?

[robust roost]

yeah

in my personal opinion, and this is not conducive to max efficient progress\

you should have the best or close to the best gear available before you start raiding

if for nothing else, to maximize the quality of the raid itself

[craggy granite]

I’m mostly on the side of don’t delay Rancour/Ferocious Gloves, but I don’t have to feel obligated to finish slayer to join in on raids

Oathplate looks huge though

[robust roost]

if im raiding with people, id rather know im performing the best i reasonably can in said raid

so i'd rather just get all of the other easily-attainable upgrades from slayer and random bosses

but that's a very subjective outlook

however

i do still think doing tob early because you want avernic before rancour/fero/oath is probably not ideal, avernic is about as minor of an upgrade as it gets

[craggy granite]

atm I’m 79 slayer, so that’s one of the big things. I’m going to be doing Doom and elite CAs

[robust roost]

doing it because you want to do tob however is simply 💯

[craggy granite]

Slayer gating off content is the thing that’s going to be most frustrating, and I was more looking for an estimate of how much worse it’d be to run some TOB before

And generally speaking my take is more like “damn, Oathplate & Avernic Treads are kind of insane”

With how they just give us kind of crazy gear early on

[craggy granite]

Also I thought that with how much def reduction happens at TOB that the str bonuses and max hits mattered more

[robust roost]

everything matters at tob

accuracy helps you land hammers in 3 rooms, helps you land bgs (you probably dont have claws so you'll likely bgs bloat/nylo), helps you hit at sote and verzik

max hits good because you melee half the raid

although everything that has 0 def you aren't meleeing so

[craggy granite]

What about burning claws?

[robust roost]

tbh i forget if they ever fixed nyloboss clearing burn on switch

[craggy granite]

Yeah, I’ll try to get all the upgrades I can, but once I get the minimum, I’ll start joining for a raid here and there

[robust roost]

the "minimum" really is just dwh whip void bp and one of the range prayers

[craggy granite]

Though my “minimum” is also going to do cox probably for rigour too

[robust roost]

oh and eye

[craggy granite]

Probably would be worth rushing elite CAs instead of purely camping Doom, that way I can keep training up slayer

[robust roost]

doom is just there, you can do it whenever you want

but i probably wouldn't do tob with a warped scepter

puts a bit more pressure on your mage if you have a pool noodle

[craggy granite]

It’s more that I wanted to do elite CAs at 80 slayer, and wanted to use Doom upgrades to go through that

But noticing that if I push off slayer to complete doom & elite CAs then I’m going to be further away from Cerb, Rax, etc

[robust roost]

if you have the gear to do doom, doom is probably the best thing you could be doing

so any time you don't want to do it, just focus on whatever's next

go back to doom when you feel like it

[craggy granite]

Yeah, I’ll do a elite CAs, and then focus doom + slayer

I’m doing most of my skilling grinds rn

[round knot]

if you have shadow do you need eye of ayak for anything?

[midnight dome]

its good for tob and you can tickfill at zulrah

[round knot]

probably not good enough to worth sticking to doom if you get boots and gloves though?

[midnight dome]

if you don't care about either of those probably not

[forest knot]

definitely a "come back for it later when you feel like it" angle

[abstract hinge]

Why is eye better than shadow at tob?

[forest knot]

nylo
As mage role, you dont need big hits, you need fast hits. 3t >>>>>>>>>> 5t for waves

For boss, you're not bringing much mage gear as mdps/rdps anyway so shadow doesnt get giga buffed. As frz you also only bring like occult/gauntlets/shield as mage items so you also dont get giga buff shadow

you dont use mage in any other room

fwiw: in duo WR runs frzer does bring shadow, but thats another level

[abstract hinge]

Got it, tyvm for the info

[frail sonnet]

shadow only very good with massive switch and that space is most often best used for other items that speed up the raid more

[forest knot]

Since scythe is now where it is, shouldnt cox come before toa?
You can 3+12 melee camp cox for completion with scy and get very reasonably efficient pph while you wouldnt even touch shadow in those raids (except finishing off the last shaman/mystic/rope guys but thats negligible)

youd barely if at all slow down your cox completion time while getting tbow for the shadow grind

[fossil flame]

personally if we are arguing megascales then i think u can justify lance to do 2+x raids instead and not stress about scythe

[forest knot]

ye maybe removing lance was premature because getting lance before any megas and then doing 2+13s (or higher) for cox completion definitely is interesting. Tbow would speed up both other raids while neither of them have any significant that would speed up your 2+13s. An avernic i guess, although mage dmg is the bottleneck at olm, not melee

[hybrid blaze]

To be clear when you say pre-shadow 3+12 or 2+13 you're saying teammates with shadows are covering your lack of magic?

[fossil flame]

ye basically

[forest knot]

yes

[hybrid blaze]

So if this is part of the route you'd need to have shadow-having teammates on standby to progress

[forest knot]

3+12 discord is active enough imo to cover that

especially if you go the lance into 2+13 route, you only need one other person who has mage gear

[hybrid blaze]

I strongly dislike putting the megarares somewhat early and locking a ton of progression behind finding teams, and I'm sad to see that scythe got moved up already. I think I might personally benefit from freezing some earlier version of the ladlor chart and relying on that instead of future updates

[full panther]

the argument is that lance -> tbow -> scythe is better than lance -> scythe -> tbow? (with 3+12)?

[forest knot]

my main argument is that tbow should come before shadow

if you go with the current route then after scy you'd dive into 3+12s melee camp for cox completion, you dont use shadow in those raids so its useless to slot it in before tbow

[fossil flame]

i think advantages car suck pointed out are very high for why ud wana do it. ud get better rates then if u had shadow+scy on top of then getting tbow speeding up other raid grinds

[forest knot]

but if you were to get lance instead of scy, like was the recommendation before, you could do 2+13s instead and get tbow for scy grind

2+13s are also just more efficient than 3+12s

[full panther]

can you give me a frame of reference for how good 2+13s are?

[forest knot]

ill try and find chart

[full panther]

the units of pp/hr are in thousand?

[forest knot]

ye

[full panther]

i lack the experience to make good inference from that

what is typical 2+13 completion time?

[forest knot]

1h05-1h10

for irons barraging that is

[fossil flame]

these raids also have very low skill floor getting high rates in solos is way harder

[forest knot]

i will say though, it HEAVILY depends on the skill of your alter, a bad alter can kill pph

[full panther]

135-145k pts/hr then

and this is with lance and doom staff?

[forest knot]

no doom staff

[full panther]

or just lance, then leech shadow

[fossil flame]

u dont even need to mage

apart from barraging

[forest knot]

you barrage all rooms and only melee at olm

[fossil flame]

im sure having eye staff would be just fine as well to fill the role to

if u ever had to mage instead

[full panther]

i see

hmm, my solos peak somewhere at 100kpts/hr

[fossil flame]

atleast in 2+x 3+x itd be more tricky imo using eye

[full panther]

for me this would be a substantial improvement already lol

but i also dont have the ayak

[forest knot]

you have lance right? you can send 2+13s

[fossil flame]

i was getting better rates then my entire experince soloing on my first 2+13 raid and that can become better with 2+16s

[forest knot]

the gear reqs are basically: lance and no giga dogshit melee gear

[fossil flame]

though i think ima wait for dhcb to push higher

[full panther]

alright link me up hah, imma need to try this

and lance will be reconsidered

[forest knot]

pls whitelist 3+12 server

[full panther]

oh shit, was it made by the goat pecanbread?

[forest knot]

he was part of the ppl who started the disc ye

[fossil flame]

^ye this is a big part and in general finding ppl to run these raids can be quite tricky

[forest knot]

he also made the extensive youtube guide showing how to do all the rooms

[full panther]

interesting

[fossil flame]

but execution wise its really easy if u dont have to alt

[full panther]

how would u characterize alting the raids?

like piloting the alt acc

[forest knot]

same as any other content: practice makes perfect

it takes a while to get used to having to play on 2 acc at same time

[full panther]

hmm, back in the days playing my main, alting raids was the most fun shit

[fossil flame]

if u can learn to alt itd prob open up teams alot more but u can also wait and join ppl willing to alt-people that are posting a raid they scouted typically are alting for everyone

[full panther]

ever since i opted to not alt with playing my ironman, ive changed my client sizing which makes it a bit aids again tho

[forest knot]

now just flip that script, instead of your main doing rooms and your alt prepping, now your alt is setting up mystics while the iron preps

[full panther]

alting with this could be a bit oof

[fossil flame]

alting doesint seem that hard imo but i have never done it

[full panther]

does anyone have a frame of reference for how much tbow speeds up shadow grind?

[forest knot]

if you could full focus on your alt its piss easy, the hard part is not dying to mystics while also not wasting time prepping

[full panther]

tbow < bp at akkha right

[forest knot]

ye bp better

tbow doggie poo on akkha

[fossil flame]

for wardens/zebac its very big

compared to bowfa

[full panther]

now, scy before 2+13 seems to also benefit the 2+13 over lance, but not by so much?

or whats the situation here

tbow pre scy now istead?

[forest knot]

you cant use scy in 2+13

sec ill try and find a vid, youll see

https://youtu.be/k8YriGKy0VY?si=OtOhJDfjs_KRvqUu

this is mage pov but look at melee

its an 8t cycle so 4t from lance is req

[forest knot]

and ye thats kinda my point, in 2+13s as melee, lance is literally bis weapon. And you dont use shadow since you barrage everything. So why not get tbow to make the other 2 raids easier

[fossil flame]

original reason scy was moved up was becuase of its impact on chambers/toa

but if u do 2+x scales scy no longer provides value and 2+x>3+x>solo

[chilly ruin]

as a kind of meta point, large continual routing updates like this feel like they should really be avoided imo. if ladlor decides this fits what he wants for the chart fair enough but changing ur mind on megarare grind order continually makes it pretty hard to actually rely on the chart

[full panther]

if the chart were to adopt 2+13 as the standard assumption, then the assumption falls through

dhl now retains value

[full panther]

i see a tradeoff here between "overcooking", and also striving for accuracy for sure

I think the chart overall has a gigantic documentation deficiency

[forest knot]

i feel like its just an issue of the fact that once you get to the point of "grind a megarare" it is always going to be difficult to make a chart that pleases everyone since its a really tough sell that someone should lock themselves to a single raid and not do a single other thing

[full panther]

the faq needs to be populated with:

• what are the underlying (big) assumptions?
• what is the design philosophy

[forest knot]

i hope that by the time ppl are at the megarare grind they realise they are in fact allowed to mix things up if they dont feel like locking themselves to a single piece of content

[chilly ruin]

yea makes sense

[forest knot]

imo i look at the chart as a "if you had an ultimate degen who never gets bored of grinding a single piece of content, what route would he take"

[fossil flame]

game changes alot though to be fair. I think it should be expected for guide to change massively if it has to. I think partially why scythe has so much of a push was because of the addition of oathplate which was a change to the game

[chilly ruin]

i wouldnt raid with randoms so dont think id ever do this personally

[fossil flame]

thats kinda assumption if u were rushing scythe u have to build connections from team finding-this is similar imo and raid is pretty easy to do imo

[full panther]

i have a personal philosophy that its a little bit sad that the raids are doable solo

so i am a little bit biased into team raids being the way to go

[austere pecan]

i definitely have the opposite mentality of wanting to do all raids solo as an iron

[forest knot]

plenty of solo content in the game as iron, no need to lock myself to even more of it in cox

[chilly ruin]

i dont necessarily mean solo i just mean i’m not convincing my shadow having friends to do a raid like this 😅

[forest knot]

its pretty fun tbh

once you get the hang of it

[chilly ruin]

i dont doubt it but its just not very conducive with casual friendship raids ppl drop in/out of over the evening

which is more my style

[full panther]

totally valid

[fossil flame]

tbh I hate these raids and dont think they deserve to be as good as they are

but theres alot of merit low reqs better points it seems worth if ur willing to imo

[full panther]

i like some emergent gameplay, rewarding those that are willing to explore a bit

the megascale boosting was disastrous tho

[chilly ruin]

if theyre more efficient i get it but its a pretty big assumption to have unwritten

[full panther]

invalidating scy and shadow is a bit dumb too tbf

[forest knot]

to be fair, overall shadow is not invalidated for cox since your mage role does need one

[full panther]

hmm true

[forest knot]

its just that as an individual you can opt not to since most irons end up getting shadow first mega

[full panther]

@hybrid blaze how come disagree with having the assumptions and/or design philosophy?

we have previously discussed the documentation burden bit and things drifting out of sync, so i do know your position on this to some extent

[hybrid blaze]

I think it will be extremely difficult and a lot of continuous work to keep those two answers complete and current. In addition, I think partial answers are harmful - you'll be missing assumptions, or including choices that agree with your philosophy but not with the partial documentation of it - and this will make users read more into it than there actually is

[full panther]

hmm, as a bit of an "ideally yes but practically attempting is more harmful than nothing" ?

[hybrid blaze]

I think it might be a net gain, but keep in mind you'll be creating confusion along with solving it

to me it seems like a lot of effort for limited gain

[full panther]

i see

[rustic granite]

it's also just a bunch of pieces of gear in a sequence, nothing about the order of megarares tells people what a 2+13 even is

if they see tbow they're going to assume 1+0s or some billybob 3+0s or something

[full panther]

this situation already exists on the chart a bit

[hybrid blaze]

rephrasing the argument a little: I think it's somewhat common to have a complicated product and then want to describe it as something really simple. I think this is also what happened in Zero's gear exploration chart.
To me the decision criteria for the sequencing actually aren't simple at all, and trying to reduce it to something simple discards valuable information

[fossil flame]

chambers in general is very unintuitive but u could just say its the meta of doing chambers for points

[forest knot]

that and the fact that a leveled up and geared up alt are a req for either person in a 2+13 seem to be the main issues for me with actually adding it

i was just bringing it up as an interesting thought

[hybrid blaze]

regarding scythe and now scaled cox, in BRUHsailer we went to great lengths to make sure people aren't locked out of future content by choosing to skip a long grind. To me it seems that the ladlor chart is now taking the opposite stance, introducing sequence dependencies for some higher-end-of-midgame items based on megarares

[forest knot]

its pretty high assumptions for an overall chart

[hybrid blaze]

I think that's a disconnect with how a chart helps in the first place

[forest knot]

to be fair though, simply readding lance and moving scythe back would mean both 2+13s are assumed in the chart AND solve Bruh's problem of reqing a scy grind

[hybrid blaze]

arguments like "you have scythe and not lance therefore you may as well do 3+12 here where your teammates handle the maging" are big points of no return for me

[full panther]

To me it seems that the ladlor chart is now taking the opposite stance, introducing sequence dependencies for some higher-end-of-midgame items based on megarares
fair assessment yea

dhl merit tanked because not worth the time in getting rigour into scythe

shafts the non-scythe planners a bit

by a bit of luck, this can be mitigated now with lance being redeemed for 2+13 optionality c:

[hybrid blaze]

I think the logic is flawed. If it takes 'a bit of luck' and 'optional 2+13' to not have this sequence dependency I think what I want from the chart is very different from how it's written

[full panther]

the bit of luck is the metas existing, not rng

just to be clear

[hybrid blaze]

I know

[full panther]

alright

[hybrid blaze]

I'm saying that you've got the tail wagging the dog

[full panther]

for sure

[hybrid blaze]

I've been wondering more over the past few months whether I should just shut up about the chart though 😅 there seems to be more focus on moving the raids forward, and on content I'm not good at, so maybe this is just the right moment for me to pipe down

[fossil flame]

when i refer someone this guide i tell them it is mostly an OPTIMAL progression chart. I do get what your saying esp with leniency on infernal cape etc. it has human element to it but megarares also have the most time investment out of any item

[hybrid blaze]

kind of treat the path up to like 90 slayer as useful and then the rest as a black box

[full panther]

it is perfectly fine to consider many parts of the chart way overkill

Parasailer's chart did this

[fossil flame]

previous version where it showed shadow before cox and tbow before tob was also very rough imo

[full panther]

when i saw toa sequencing needed to be included, and i had a go at updating to include it, thats when scope was attempted expanded

already then a decision was made for excess possibly since grinds are now long as hell anyways

[full panther]

what are the top pain points in your vision vs current implementation?

[fossil flame]

I think many people here apperciate your perspective even if you dont feel that way

[full panther]

yep ur the goat

[austere pecan]

^

[forest knot]

i'd argue that such perspectives are very useful to have for a chart that is spread so far and wide amongst the community. It's not good to have only one perspective (people who know all content) when talking over strategies

[full panther]

so, i think it would be reasonable to permanently decouple dhl from the raids maybe

and leave it at that

the raids could still be sequenced relative to eachother with whatever assumptions

[forest knot]

i think this would be a good decision. You can justify it from a meta perspective by citing 2+13s, while also catering to the more casual crowd who don't want to grind a scy before doing cox or toa

[full panther]

not catering, just policy for simplicity

and accessibility

[hybrid blaze]

There aren't many, it's more the ongoing discussions that I stayed out of. Looking at the chart, the points I'd question are:

• Voidwaker (I know I'm a hater)
• Maybe move deadeye and mystic vigour earlier
• Lack of lance, already discussed
• I don't quite get the avernic hilt location (should it be earlier if finding teams is not a problem?) and scythe location (discussed at length above)

Rest looks good to me right now

[full panther]

alright, nice

[hybrid blaze]

I think decoupling a few decisions is good, so that people don't have to make big commitments 'early' or risk getting in raids trouble later

[full panther]

this reads maybe a bit sharper than i wanted oops

[craggy granite]

I think anything after Lance turns into how to efficiently raid discussion

Which really is “once you have lance, feel free to grind out any of the raids”

etc

Obviously there’s more progress available, but because it starts being meta and strategy dependent and availability, I’m not sure if there’s an outright answer to those

I like Scythe > Lance personally

The best suggestion for the mega rare chase seems to be “figure out whatever optimal raid method you can do” over any of the gear

[full panther]

in chambers, not being slow is a lot more important for pts than gear is anyways

assumes billybob anyhow

3+12 alleviates this a bit by extending how long ur at olm

[craggy granite]

Pretty much

At that point instead of gear progression recommendations I’d mostly link people to other resources

[tacit crow]

IMO if any kind of progression requires you to raid with others who have megas you are delaying is really unappealing.

That's why I like scythe being first because you can raid with 2 other irons at the same part in gear progression.

If a progression then relies on you having teammates with X mega, it just instantly invalidates it for me.

And just cause it's not gonna be any significant amount faster to get scythe later on of course.

[tacit crow]

I guess a better way to word it is "If a team of independent irons couldn't follow this progression chart together, then it is invalid"

[full panther]

i think thats an appropriate stance yea

[south fern]

Well no 2 accounts are the same, most people forge their own path. Also spoons happen say getting shadow, while going for fang

[indigo hollow]

I don’t think spooning items should be considered at all here

[forest knot]

thats one way to look at the chart, the other would be to recognize that most irons get shadow as their first mega and that there are a lot of irons out there with a shadow you could duo with

to me its a difference in practice vs theory

[tacit crow]

That's fair. And of course anyone can do that in practice. But outlining it in theory is the "efficient path" is definitely bad theory.

If I had a scythe and my bro asked me if I wanted to learn 3+12s or 2+13s without shadow I would not be opposed to joining.

[full panther]

one related but not entirely the same assumption the chart now does make is capability to find a tob team

eh nvm bad comparison, bcs the assumption is u can find ppl in same position as u if anything

[tacit crow]

Also, that assumption applies no matter where you have scythe

[hollow cobalt]

the chart already takes you well beyond typical learner gear

could be moved back to immediately after cox prays and still find teams

[tacit crow]

We really need a +1 emoji on this server

[full panther]

🤝 this one kind works

[forest knot]

As discussed above, another benefit of "assuming" 2+13s and putting lance back in also removes the assumption that people are gonna camp tob before doing a lot of cox/toa

imo if you put lance in before the raids section, then the raids section becomes kind of "do whatever you feel like"

cause youll be setup to reasonably efficiently do all 3 raids

[tacit crow]

I don't know anything about 2+13s or 3+12s, but if one of those can fit into that earlier statement from me. I don't see an issue with routing tbow before shadow. I would just be worried about how much time you waste looking for teammates particularly for these methods because your pool of potential teammates is more limited and comparable solo methods are available if you path progession differently.

[forest knot]

which is exactly why i dislike even attempting to try and perfectly order the raids tiles outside of like fang/lb/dex/arcane. It should be treated as a "do what you want" part. If you have a teammate to send 2+13s, do that, otherwise you could tob. Or even toa if you feel like it

your gear is fine enough as is that not sticking to the perfect theoretical order is not the worst thing to do

[hollow cobalt]

at the end of the day tob isn't really affected by the other 2 raids and scy speeds up cox so there's not much arguement for anything other than first when you have teams

[forest knot]

the entire point is that scy does not speed up cox now that 2+13 (or even 2+16) is meta

[chilly ruin]

why do those favour lance?

[forest knot]

they're dependent on a dmgless olm method that is on an 8t cycle. So 2x lance hits. The 5t of scy doesnt work for the method so cant be used

[chilly ruin]

oh right of course

[forest knot]

at the end of this vid you see mage POV but can look at melee

[dusky fog]

I’m all for efficiency but what’s the most realistic efficient path forward? I’m slowly approaching the point where I’ll be deciding which mega to grind first. I understand there are always skill curves to overcome in learning raids. I got TOA down but I’ve never done cox even close to efficiently and never done TOB before outside of entry CAs. I become a bit hesitant when I hear all this dependence on doing highly specific methods like 3+12, which I’m not even sure what that means, and consistently fjndjng other players who know and are willing to do those type of methods

[forest knot]

imo its learn 2+13s and do a mix of those + tob depending on team availability

2+13 means you do a chambers run with 2 ppl scaled to 15 ppl

[hollow cobalt]

you can also just do other cox methods

and that's fine

[dusky fog]

Do you think the average player can learn 2+13s? Also, what’s best way to find a team for them? Does this assume friends in game, clan mates, or is there a server or something?

[forest knot]

2+13s are not hard no, best way to find a partner is 3+12 disc

[polar void]

NO only 2+13's with a sweaty duo is viable, do not raid with your friends and have fun

[forest knot]

gg/zeWSHvMa

thats disc code

[dusky fog]

Thanks

If you don’t do sweaty 2+13 then how what that change the chart or raid priority?

Or does it not and you just do a slower alternative cox method

[polar void]

It doesn't change jack

[hollow cobalt]

scythe first becomes even more obviously good and lance is 100% useless

[forest knot]

consensus before i started being annoying about this high scaled raids was tob first before cox

[dusky fog]

So grabbing Lance is more important if you want to do the 2+13 method? Otherwise grab scythe from tob first

[forest knot]

you only get lance if you plan on 2+13 otherwise forget it

[dusky fog]

Alright that clears it up for me

I’ll try to learn the duo method

With my bro who is a sweat

I wanted to grab Dhl regardless of raids tbh anyways

[hollow cobalt]

there are many acceptable cox methods

2+13, 3+12, cm, solos etc

[forest knot]

wdr 30min 3+4s?

[craggy granite]

Ordering the raids can just be done via ranked choice voting every few months/after a major update happens

Overall the difference and what goes there seems to largely be vibes

Cause can find a reason to put them in almost every order

Ranked Choice I think lets it cover 2nd place?

[hollow cobalt]

neither of the others affect tob

in a meaningful way

[tacit crow]

I think that right there is the best argument for putting tob as first mega rare no matter what you plan on doing for cox.

Cox and ToA have interplay with tbow being pretty good for TOA and shadow being very good for CMs solos and 3+12s. While shadow and tbow aren't doing much at all for TOB.

[fossil flame]

I really dont think u need shadow honestly eye is prob good enough ik some ppl have run them

only brickwall for 2x scales is headphase

[fossil flame]

they are worse points an hour though

the thing about these meathods is they are easier then doing efficent solos to. its not like toa where doing 500 or the optimal path is much harder

[hollow cobalt]

yes but they are still viable methods

[fossil flame]

if u route way of 2+13 scy has 0 value and ud get tbow for toa/tob in theory atleast idt theres any objective arguement on how its worse then the current meta

ud have same brickwall as tob needing to build a friend group to do it but u only need one other person idk

[hollow cobalt]

bow has 0 value for tob regardless what methods you use

scy has some value for cox for most methods

[fossil flame]

not for 2+13 which is the most optimal

and even if u wana say tbow is useless for tob it would still be better for toa

[hollow cobalt]

the other methods still exist and are viable when you dont have teams or don't feel like 2+13 lol

tob, cox, toa makes sense
so does tob toa cox

anything else seems nonsensical

[tacit crow]

Relying strictly on 2+13s also seems kinda unrealistic or you'll spend too much time looking and/or for a duo

[hybrid blaze]

you dont use scythe in toa, right? So if tob toa cox is solid, why not toa tob cox

[fossil flame]

u can if u get scy first its better on wardens slightly then bowfa

[hollow cobalt]

also fine

[hybrid blaze]

To me this boils down to exactly 'tob before cox', which is what these three sequences have in common

[fossil flame]

i would not say getting scy/shadow before u can grind chambers is really that freeing either

[hybrid blaze]

while 'cox before tob' is precisely wrong

I dont quite understand the logic though - this assumes scythe at cox, then? No lance?

I thought the discussion earlier today landed at saying there are fine (even if not best) alternatives with lance

[tacit crow]

Dont have to factor lance in.

The logic is nothing from cox makes a meaningful difference at tob. While scythe improved several different viable cox methods.

[fossil flame]

but it doesint if u do the most optimal meathod is point and ud get tbow for toa

[tacit crow]

Besides rigour of course but that's already on the chart

[fossil flame]

if u want to ignore a key meta way of doing cox and then ignore tbow value at toa u can barely make that arguement

[hollow cobalt]

holy fuck

no one is ignoring that 2+13s exist

[tacit crow]

I'm not saying anything about that?

[hollow cobalt]

you can just do other methods on occasion

which are much improved by scy

[hybrid blaze]

Ok, so the key restriction on the order of the three raids is the added value of scythe at cox

and then cox vs toa is kinda w/e either way

[tacit crow]

This in conjunction with both shadow/tbow not mattering for TOB

[hybrid blaze]

conversely scythe also doesnt matter for toa, or not much at least(?)

[fossil flame]

2+13 is the only narrow scope where scy provides 0 value for raid its also the best points. but alot of people are arguing u cant always do 2+13s so u should still have scy to do cox in other ways

[hybrid blaze]

I really thought solo scaled lance cox was a serious non-megascale option

for years people said this was a good method

[hollow cobalt]

in reality people aren't going to camp 1 raid until completion, so who cares

[tacit crow]

Also I doubt getting lance strictly to do 2+13s warrants a big enough points/hr increase to make it worth it compared to using scythe in 3+12s or solos/CMs.

What kind of points/hr increase are we talking here?

[hybrid blaze]

Yeah this is a good point, but then I also think that:

1. The chart shouldn't have a definite sequence on the megarares
2. It's bad to have tiles further down be sensitive to not completing a raid
3. I'd like to quantify what the opportunity cost is of mixing them up or doing them in any order

[hollow cobalt]

yeah I'm pretty skeptical that grinding lance beats both:

• using scythe on other methods
• doing big scales with rapier/blade/whip/etc

[fossil flame]

well other big thing is ud get tbow for entire toa grind to and tob while also getting better points at cox in ideal circumstances

[hybrid blaze]

I'm still very uncomfortable with putting scythe before cox, as it reads to me exactly like you should complete tob before branching out (and tob is famously tricky to find reliable teams for).
At the same time these megascales scare me a bit, especially with the talk earlier on how others need shadows to fill the mage roles and also it requires alts in addition to the scaling mechanic?

[hollow cobalt]

throwing them all into block is 100% fine

[hybrid blaze]

It'd make more sense to me to say tob first but mix it up whenever

[tacit crow]

You can do that with tob first also

[full panther]

oop missclick

apologies

[tacit crow]

I'm not ever arguing for cox vs ToA order. That's a whole other debate that will require some serious calculations and assumptions. I'm just arguing for TOB before either of them.

Does anyone know expected number of points to green log cox?

Or should we just do on rate points for tbow?

[fossil flame]

ye ig that is middle ground maybe to get scy and do megascaled raids with eye/scy so u arent limited to 2+13

[hollow cobalt]

~65m without pet or so

[hybrid blaze]

65,070k

[tacit crow]

So 30m for tbow rate is gonna make a big difference.

[hybrid blaze]

im not following

difference in what?

[tacit crow]

I'm just trying to see how much points/hr increase doing solely 2+13s would get you over doing something like 3+12s.

Because 2+13s requires lance from what people have said earlier

Lance is an extra 20-25 hours right?

Over feros

[hollow cobalt]

well if you leave at feros and don't have lance, your expected kills is another 1000

[hybrid blaze]

no, it's more complicated. If you get lance before feros you're out, if you do not it's a full 40hr added or so

[tacit crow]

That's true

So even if lance speeds up your cox points from 130k/hr to 150k/hr, you still lose time overall on getting 30m points. (230 hours vs. 200 hours)

[full panther]

here is some choices that could work, but would be a little dramatic:

• literally remove the arrows between the raids items
• evict post-raids into retirement home

[tacit crow]

Assuming you have to spend another 40 hours for lance.

[full panther]

removing the arrows would technically speaking force the raids items to be its own "entity" for code reasons, so evicting post-raids into retirement home would be as olution there

or else non-feasible. thoughts?

[craggy granite]

I think that’s probably for the best

[tacit crow]

I don't know enough about 2+13s or 3+12s to say if that's accurate, but I would guess you aren't getting a 20k points/hr increase from doing 2+13s vs the other viable methods.

[hybrid blaze]

I think the post-raids sequencing contains meaningful information

[hollow cobalt]

torva really should be retirement home

[hybrid blaze]

The argument wasn't that lance is a time save to tbow

sorry but I don't really care about the argument you're going through

[tacit crow]

This is an argument against the people saying to get lance to do 2+13s.

There were a couple

[craggy granite]

Raids marking a stopping point for ordered gear progression makes the most sense because afterwards I think method/meta/availability decide a lot of the progression

At least in my head

I think that everything raids and beyond is a lot of info dump

[hybrid blaze]

I understand, but I dont care for this argument at all. It's way too reliant on your own assumptions

[craggy granite]

And it’s not really helped by an infographic

[tacit crow]

Numbers are gonna be similar anyway when you are above 120k points/hr anyway, which you should be if you are efficiently grinding for a bow.

[full panther]

will make this happen

[craggy granite]

I think these discussions are confusing and only nerds can really follow along

[full panther]

how about zcb tho? stays in main prog?

[hybrid blaze]

No, as always, it's not the numbers that are suspect. It's the motivation for combining the numbers in the first place.

I don't doubt your sources, I disagree with your entire logic

[fossil flame]

i think the scope is bigger then just better points an hour at cox. ud get tbow/claws for tob as well better mage gear its low value but its not eraseable value

[craggy granite]

Group raids + Venator + heart and then put in zcb/nex last?

[full panther]

i personally believe that tob could open more doors at cox than cox does for tob, and could put that in front (if stepping away from the idea of full de-couple of raids for the moment).

[craggy granite]

Just as a or two steps after raids

Though most of that is retirement home

I think post raids and retirement home is outside the scope?

At some point an infographic can only go so far, and I think ordering the raids and post-raids content has been a lot even seeing the discussions

[fossil flame]

i do agree with most of the scy arguements its alot more practical and simple to assume as well

[tacit crow]

Raids should be separate from retirement home if those are put into blocks.

[dusky fog]

Holy shit. I need a flowchart to interpret all this 😂

[inland cosmos]

raids is a fair endpoint for the chart as a whole tbh

[craggy granite]

Gear Progression to get you to Raids

[tacit crow]

End of gear progression > raids > retirement home would be if we went down that road.

[dire zephyr]

weird question for the cox grind, isn't scaled cox pretty damn expensive? Where are u getting the gp for it if ur skipping hydra?

[full panther]

it would be, but not as a toggle

[craggy granite]

I think is a really clear statement

[full panther]

i think that'd cross into bloat

[craggy granite]

Follow Ladlor chart you’ll be ready to tackle all the raids

[hybrid blaze]

I thought these were team scales where everybody benefits and in addition you're using the cox mechanic to set the scale

[tacit crow]

Comes down to the goal of the chart at that point.

[hybrid blaze]

are these paid services?!

[full panther]

no theyre not paid, he is talking runes

[dire zephyr]

no i mean expensive as in runes

[hybrid blaze]

ahhh ok

[full panther]

we dont condone cheating here hahah

[hybrid blaze]

im sure there's a way to finance the runes

[dusky fog]

so is it basically 93 or 95 slayer then go to raids?

[dire zephyr]

you barrage every room pretty much and do a lot of mage hand killing/scything

[tacit crow]

Runes in combo with scythe charges

The runes drops themselves + converting runite ores should cover a hefty portion.

[craggy granite]

I think that’s what I’m understanding?

[fossil flame]

its less supply intensive in a sense cuz u barely use brews/restores

but idt supply cost is anymore diffrent then using scy/shadow for more convetional meathods

[craggy granite]

@full panther end of the day it’s your project, what would you like to get across?

[tacit crow]

Isn't barraging comparable gp/hr cost to shadowing?

[dusky fog]

Can someone make a flowchart of the raids priority? lol. Seems like there are assumptions and "IF" this "THAN" that scenarios based on methods chosen, team availability, etc.

[full panther]

i think after today, "stable baseline" is what i hope the chart is at the end of the day

give users the confidence that it is reasonable material for inspiration in own progression

[craggy granite]

I’m more or less following it with only slight deviations doing TDs & Doom earlier and pushing off gwd

And I think overall it is really clear about how things lead into each other

Until the end where it doesn’t matter much

The only hill I’m willing to die on is that people should be bullied into inferno & colo earlier than the chart

[dire zephyr]

infernal cape in this section when?

[full panther]

here is a simplified view of the situation

arrows not fully proportional, but shadow matters more for tbow, than tbow for shadow

same for scy

and little to no cross-dependency for shadow and scy

[glacial musk]

Hello everyone, im roughly following the Ladlor chart but I did have some questions. In the construction section at the beginning can you help me understand why we make an Arcaeus altar instead of the other two? Also with the section that just has a chinchompa, is there a specific amount we are supposed to get? Thank you

[fossil flame]

it is ye but i think u need scy/shadow but bigger brickwall is the difficulty imo of that meathod

[full panther]

it gets more complicated if you can "push" the shadow for cox onto someone else, which would allow different sequencing that is more optimal than baseline

2+13 does exactly this

[fossil flame]

its like the equiv of making people do 500 toa with bowfa or something

[hybrid blaze]

Arceuus altar is very important and slow to get to on other spellbooks, so building it in your poh saves the most time.
Chins in that step are only for 70 ranged. You get to 92 later in a second chinning step.

[full panther]

i think its internally consistent if chart assumes any teammates has the same gear as you

and emergent gaming like this would be ones own responsibility

[glacial musk]

Thank you, is there a special way I should be getting to the ancient spell book then? I find that one to be the farthest to get to, that means I must be doing something wrong

[inland cosmos]

sceptre > camulet surface I think

[glacial musk]

Additionally I think I’m devaluing the arceus book, what makes it so important besides thralls?

[hybrid blaze]

you teleport with the pharaohs sceptre

it puts you right at the pyramid

[full panther]

tele to fairy ring, tele to herb run

wait uh sec

[tacit crow]

The arrow from tbow to scythe should be so incredibly small

[hybrid blaze]

resurrect crop, vile vigour

[dire zephyr]

isnt eye pretty similar dps to shadow anyway

on olm hand

[full panther]

i dont really have an intuition for that personally

is it scale invariant also?

[fossil flame]

im curious what other people think. I think regardless expecting someone to grind a mrare before tackling other content was always unpractical even if it was more efficent. so this seems like more open ended and good way to go about it

[craggy granite]

94 magic -> inferno -> quiver if real

[dire zephyr]

think it might be a little bigger difference in a 100 man scale according to calc but i didnt think stats changed tbh

[tacit crow]

94 is not fun at all, would not recommend. Getting 1 tick drained by a bat and missing your barrage was incredibly frustrating.

[dire zephyr]

this is the type of gear im assuming

[full panther]

damn

15 is 5 hands?

did i get that right?

1.5mins per raid diff. and how many pts per raid ish?

[dire zephyr]

no clue i havent done cox properly in years

[fossil flame]

pecan was getting like 90-100k points in a 3+12

u get more in 2+13 like maybe 120-140k

some rough numbers

[dusky fog]

This does help, thanks

[full panther]

rough numbers say 7 hour diff in eye vs. shadow for 3+12

[tacit crow]

Do you have a source for this? This seems really low.

[fossil flame]

just referincing some of the points i was seeing from pecans video guide on 3+12/enkh 2+13 guide

just some rough ones not exact

2+13 is prob a lowball

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eamC0JAAcI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8YriGKy0VY

[hollow cobalt]

how on earth is a bat 1t hitting you on wave spawn

[frail sonnet]

@full panther imo zcb should be earlier

[rustic granite]

In general raids/Nex depends on drop order

If you get Masori top+bottom before Shadow yeah probably

[hollow cobalt]

Maybe?

[tacit crow]

these say 130k vs. 150k? no where near 90k-100k vs. 120k-140k

[dire zephyr]

i think he's saying per raid and not per hour

[tacit crow]

I think that's disingenious to quote when only points/hr matter

[fossil flame]

i thought landlor was asking about points per raid for one of his questions

[blazing fern]

pecans vids are max gear

no one has that at current point in the prog

surprised to see discussion around re-ordering chart based on 2+13/3+12 being the assumption

the assumption that people will have consistent access to reliable tob teams is also impractical imo

[dire zephyr]

scaled raids are relatively common now afaik and require very little skill to do

no real reason to have the chart focused on any other type of cox

also im not rly sure what you could change to account for unreliable tob teams? surely the assumption anyone reading the chart would have is that they're still allowed to do toa/cox if they cant find a tob team

[blazing fern]

they're easy. finding a partner or 2 to run them with you has been challenging and inconsistent in my experience, but i didn't know about the 2+13s disc. will have to check that out

also smth about ironman gear prog chart telling u to go level up a main from scratch just for this one section of the chart, or rely on someone else who has a main with - just rubs me the wrong way

who has a main with the gear*

[hollow cobalt]

It's not very long and it takes a very long time to get to that stage of the prog

Also the prog isn't "make a main", it's "do cox with whatever method you prefer"

[chilly ruin]

there's been suggestions above that the chart should be specifically routed around a 2+13 assumption only

[blazing fern]

these discussion over the last 2 days are what i'm specifically referencing

[tacit crow]

This argument has no merit against TOB's position. You'll run into this limited regardless of where you route tob.

[blazing fern]

based on what i've spent the last 30 minutes reading above it seems 2+13 / 3+12 being the standard assumption is getting serious consideration

[dire zephyr]

the consideration is lance vs scythe

and the answer will depend on the method the player prefers to do cox with

[forest knot]

my goal of bringing up 2+13s was mainly to get lance added back to the chart. Theoretically, 2+13s is your best bet for cox (if you can find a partner, alt etc, all these assumptions), but its not even included. I think it should be based on that premise

But the main benefit of adding it back on that logic is that people will be more free to swap between raids instead of being stuck at tob for scy or use poopoo weapon at olm

so i want lance back not as "you must do 2+13s" but because it gives people more freedom to switch between raids. The fact that 2+13s are meta is just a nice justification to get it added

[craggy granite]

i think that knowing that it's efficient to start sending tob before lance is worth mentioning

though you don't need to pot tob before doing cox as your best/only progression

[full panther]

correct

wanted to quanitfy how 1.5mins per raid cumulates to go on rate for bow and/or completion

[craggy granite]

I think that just communication wise I'd have an easier time telling my buddies "Hey, look at this and we can get raids ready together"

[blazing fern]

ladlor and others have stated that the positioning of scy assumes people will be able to find consistent / reliable tob teams

[craggy granite]

and I'd probably encourage them to get Lance

I wouldn't tell anyone to just avoid it

[chilly ruin]

i'm still also pretty convinced lance is a realistic option to include

[full panther]

just to be clear, the lance matter is fairly settled, its just going to get added back in. the more pressing one is raids sequencing (or lack thereof)

[dire zephyr]

personally i dont rly see the need to have any raid come before the others

if you have lance that is

[forest knot]

^^^^^^^^^^

[dire zephyr]

eye works fine in regular cox and if you have lance you can 2+13

[tacit crow]

scythe is just better than lance for solos also

[forest knot]

people at that stage should be wise enough to figure it out

[full panther]

its not a matter of if they can, its a matter of if they want to

[hollow cobalt]

Lance still just sounds like a meme to grind out

[dire zephyr]

if you dont go for lance then you kinda need to start tob and do toa when you cant find a team

lance is a kinda long grind but it also has a lot of side benefits so i dunno what id do personally tbh

[chilly ruin]

yea if hydra loot was awful id consider it differently i think

it is a potentially long grind tho for sure

[dire zephyr]

assuming 2+13 you save all the scythe gp, get hydra gp + prayer, don't have to rush tob

i dunno how ud go about quantifying that into hours in terms of value

[blazing fern]

we're going in circles tbh. ur not using scy in 2+13

[chilly ruin]

to me this all kind of comes back to what are the rules for the chart and where is the line on what you assume ppl are willing to do

[blazing fern]

could also just have 2 routes based on whether people plan on soloing or scaling cox

cox is a long enough grind to warrant an asterisk in the chart or however that would be implemented

im not saying actually show 2 routes in the chart, but like an faq line of "if ur soloing consider scy first, if ur scaling go for lance"

and if you want the optionality just get the lance

[dire zephyr]

most scaling also uses scythe

it's only really duos that lance afaik

[blazing fern]

ya, to be clear imtalking about 2+13/3+12, not 3+4 etc

[forest knot]

friends of mine run 4+27s but its same as duo method just less chance of head centering

[blazing fern]

at the end of the day if this is the meta progression shouldn't be dhl skip

scy better for solos, 2+13 60% more pp/hr than solos

[dire zephyr]

it's not strictly meta progression, it has assumptions built in as you can see with infernal cape as the most obvious example

[hollow cobalt]

moment

No way it's even close to that

[forest knot]

whats pph for solos with the gear you'd have in chart? like 100k?

[blazing fern]

whatever it is, my solos are 100k, 2+13 is 160k

but sure meme

[hollow cobalt]

Is lance even worth grinding if you assume 2+13? If not this is all irrelevant

[forest knot]

youre not going to out dps your mager with a whip

[hollow cobalt]

Rapier/blade vs lance on 0 def is what? 5-10%?

[forest knot]

also the most prevalent criticism of 2+13s has been that its unreasonable to expect finding a partner, removing the lance only makes that criticism far harder as idk anyone that sends with whip ppl

you dont 0def in 2+13s most times

[blazing fern]

why are we bringing up rapier/blade

[hollow cobalt]

Because if you don't get a lance you can use them for your 2+13s if you want to do those

And if lance is a net timeloss then it's irrelevant

[dire zephyr]

i think team finding might get real difficult if you use a shit 1h even if dps difference isnt huge if it leads to finishing hands being more difficult

i havent done any 2+13 so im speculating but i think you'd take dmg if one hand dies when the other is at 20%

[forest knot]

ye

[dire zephyr]

maybe it works out if partner has eye but eye is pretty close to shadow so i dont think so

not sure what shadow vs lance dps difference is or what def ud calc the melee hand on

[blazing fern]

if anything it should be compared to tent because chart is assuming people have bofa/tent no blade

honestly i

i'll just stop takling am extremely confused

[dire zephyr]

i think the route mad as heck wants has tob before cox so ud be pretty likely to have a rapier

[forest knot]

lance is slightly more dps than shadow on average, only if all specs miss can shadow sometimes outdps

[hollow cobalt]

Or you just 3+12 and it's slightly worse etc

But killing hands is easier

[tacit crow]

You can't compare 2+13 vs. solo and say it's conclusive. It's going to be 2+13s vs. 3+12 or another form of scaled raids.

[hollow cobalt]

Also 100k solos sounds quite low for 2025

[tacit crow]

yeah that too

[blazing fern]

would you revert bofa to saeldor before getting tbow?

[tacit crow]

why?

[blazing fern]

thats what im asking in response to rapier/blade vs dhl comment

[tacit crow]

I don't think that's ever a discussion

it's lance vs. scythe

You would never do a serious amount of cox towards tbow without either lance or scythe

(efficiently)

[craggy granite]

you could do lance after scythe 🤔

but I think that going into those details just misses the point

[forest knot]

as a lance truther, thats a no from me

at that point you send 3+12s instead

[tacit crow]

scythe does very good at hydra. But yeah.

[hollow cobalt]

Is it a net timesave to spend 40 hrs at hydra vs just poking olm with a lance in 3+12

[tacit crow]

That's what I was getting at earlier

well

comparing 3+12s to 2+13 of using scythe vs. going specifically for lance

[craggy granite]

I think we're going into a design philosophy question of the chart more than anything

The amount of time to get Lance if seen as time taken from TOB & COX it'll probably be a net time loss

But if the goal is to get people simply raids ready with the rest being on them, then absolutely get the Lance

[blazing fern]

whether ur getting 100k/hr or 115k/hr that's still a massive diff vs 1160k/hr so im not sure i understand your point here

[craggy granite]

if someone's a completionist, get lance either way

if someone gets lance before ferocious gloves, then that's also a nice win for them

[hollow cobalt]

Ok but if it's 135 vs 150k calling it 60% is a joke

[tacit crow]

Going strictly off Pecan's scaled vids it's a question of 130k 3+12s vs. 150k./hr 2+13s thats 230 hours vs. 200 hours for 30m points. 40 hours to get lance becomes a 10 hour timeloss vs. just getting scythe and doing 3+12s.

[craggy granite]

is that 40 hours to get lance including expected value of getting lance before gloves or nah?

[tacit crow]

It is not

just viewing it simpler post gloves view assuming you didnt get lance

If you get lance you can just send 2+13s if you want to submit yourself to that.

[blazing fern]

if people are getting 135k/hr solos i didn't know that was possible and is my bad, am not trolling

[forest knot]

to be fair thats irrelevant in the discussion, if you get it before gloves, theres no question about "should i get it". If you don't, its still a 1/1k after gloves

[tacit crow]

Yeah exactly

[full panther]

i think the expected value for both should be compared with the expected value for just gloves

[craggy granite]

Yeah, but if designing towards expected time to get one of each should be the expectedvalue

[full panther]

how many hours is both vs gloves?

thats the number imo

[craggy granite]

because you're putting them together

it's 1/514 and 1/1001

[tacit crow]

It would be kind of weird for a chart to rely on that though

[full panther]

expected hours?

[craggy granite]

drop rate

idk kills per hour for hydra

[tacit crow]

Also if you start seriously considering lance to do 2+13s on the routing sheet, you have to also consider again routing scythe before it because scythe itself speeds up lance a good amount, while tbow from cox isn't speeding up TOB.

I recall the DPS figures a little, but scythe should at least be a couple hours saved for lance.

[blazing fern]

if u got scy before dhl, efficiency wise, ud just send 3+12

no?

alternative would be scy into 40 hours of hydra for dhl 2+13s which save 30hrs over scy 3+12s (10 hr time loss)

[hollow cobalt]

3+12 or solos and call it a day

[blazing fern]

i sir am ready to call it a day

[craggy granite]

It’s like 1175 KC hydra for lance & gloves vs 514 KC for gloves only fwiw

So something like 660 kc

[dusky fog]

That’s why I asked for a separate flow chart for raids consideration

Surely the 3 longest useful grinds are worthy of such

[robust roost]

slightly late to the convo, but I think once you’re at the point in the chart where you start seeing megarares, the box is kinda open atp

the most likely thing that’s going to happen to people who know they’re fully ready for raids is they’ll just do whichever one they want

so being told to camp one until the megarare drops might be discouraging

[robust roost]

i'd be in favor of putting them all in the same block tbh

[quiet schooner]

The chart is kind of pointless after max combats non raids max and raids commons tbh

Could do some like shorter chart for general use that goes up to rigour/infernal/quiver and then make some theoretical chart with ideal placement of megas or whatever

[thorny night]

hello whj at gear is good

im 60 attack 70 str 60 defence

no idea what this goat is

[frozen olive]

[[dscim]]
[[ddef]]
[[Fighter torso]]
[[Str ammy]]
[[Helm of neit]]
[[Barrows gloves]]
[[Climbing boots]]

[last echo]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Dragon_scimitar
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Dragon_defender
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Fighter_torso
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Amulet_of_strength
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Helm_of_neitiznot
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Barrows_gloves
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Climbing_boots

[frozen olive]

[[berserker ring]]

[last echo]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Berserker_ring

[hollow cobalt]

alternatively follow the chart

[thorny night]

do i do slayer after obtaining all of those

[dire zephyr]

if you check the chart you'll see you kinda want things like ice barrage, piety and a ton of ppots too

slayer is one of those things that benefit the most from delaying it as an iron

[thorny night]

so i have collected a lof of the 2 dose moth jars

which give me 22 prayer

[dire zephyr]

that will help a bit but keep in mind for the future that collecting ppots is better

ppl don't really realise how easy and overall efficient ppots are to source from farming contracts/sepulchre

[dire zephyr]

also keep in mind that ofc none of these efficient things matter much if you think you'll have way more fun just doing bad slayer or rushing something else

most of us dont get 94 magic before 69 slayer for example

[thorny night]

idk what farming contracts are

im only 81 farming

[dire zephyr]

even if its efficient

[[Farming contracts]]

[last echo]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Farming_contracts

[dire zephyr]

i would also check out #1052266500041478246 and look at the guides especially the slayer guide and the farming guide

[thorny night]

there is no slayer guide

[dire zephyr]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kBMW2uRI8b4NBcYn9PmsedTnZ3yW7fuGwdzsRQSCNkk/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.ql9cqdqrks2i

[thorny night]

nvm i found out

ty

[thorny night]

Bro wtf

This skater guide basically says I'm shit

Like I have 90000 hours more to get anything

[dire zephyr]

there is a good bit of questing and skilling before you get to pvm on an iron

it's probably not as bad as you think if you use the efficient methods to get there but ye you can't rly do a proper pvm rush on an iron

that's more of the main acc playstyle

although even they should really be doing a lot of the things we do

[robust roost]

not rly tbh

most of our time spent skilling is for the things we get from the skills

mains can buy all of it

they don't need to do any herb, any farming, any sep, any rc

[tiny tundra]

i think the idea of "focus on questing and diaries before seriously investing time into pvm" still applies though

[robust roost]

questing yes, diaries only a couple are actually important

and we still do a lot of post-quest skilling

[tiny tundra]

ye

[robust roost]

the pvm rush route on iron does somewhat exist and it's just the sote rush path

which takes out a lot of qpc skill reqs as is

between cooking, farm/herb, agility, rc and thieving, we spend several hundred hours skilling that mains never have to touch

slayer also optional, every slayer boss drop is buyable and equippable

crafting smithing and fletching too, they can buy ammo and zenytes, don't need mining for anything

really the only skill mains need beyond mid lvl for quests to access all of the endgame is con for a good poh lol

[dire zephyr]

im talking about making sure they have things like piety, b ring, ice barrage, elite cas etc for slayer when most main accs use slayer to make gp and think farming gargoyles is great

[robust roost]

and slayer to access those bosses

all of those things can be bought

elite ca's aren't worth thinking about on a main for slayer because heart is so rare it barely contributes to the gp/hr profit of training it

[dire zephyr]

elite cas give good exp its not just the imbued heart

im under the impression that you can almost 0 time elite cas but ill take that one back if it's a big time sink

[robust roost]

you can almost 0 time hard ca's, elites are about 4x the point total of hards ish

i don't think it's conceivable to be able to get elite ca's in a manner that makes it efficient to do so before slayer (on a main)

won't lie and say it's something i've given any meaningful thought

[craggy granite]

I was taking a look at it right now, and if you're first commited to finishing up a bunch of bosses and completely holding off on slayer, and then fully committing to slayer, it looks doable

but not going for 87 slayer at least to get grotesque guardians, sire and kraken ca's feels silly

because the next pvm after the gwd, doom, yama, zulrah, etc. the major upgrade is at 91+ slayer

[robust roost]

we were talking about mainscape btw

if you missed that context

[craggy granite]

oops 😅

[robust roost]

whether the extra xp from 25% more superiors justifies the time spent to get elite ca's

or rather to rush them early

[craggy granite]

on my main i didn't bother with them, but now I'd probably go for master ca's cause thralls or w/e

i know one of them makes thralls upgraded

[dire zephyr]

you dont necessarily have to rush them early, as you said slayer isnt too important for a main acc until u get to bingos

[craggy granite]

if i were to actually focus and play that again

[robust roost]

and idk how many you can get reasonably that aren't a complete waste of time tbh

cause you unlock a ton from gg's and then all of the 87+ slayer bosses

[craggy granite]

also have access to cannon slayer for bloodvelds, etc.

[robust roost]

but yeah you can also get slayer to whatever level for qpc and then stop until you have elite ca's

the skill isn't particularly useful outside of adding variety content

[craggy granite]

it's a different world altogether there

[craggy granite]

there's elite diaries, but even those matter less on the main

achievement diaries

[robust roost]

i think the only elite diaries i actually care about are like

lumb for fairy rings

and kourend for boots freedom at hydra

[craggy granite]

karamja teles if you don't wanna get a task with sbs

[robust roost]

frem is nice for the tele and for noted bones on dks tasks if you're a pet hunter

[craggy granite]

with offerings making ash sanctifier & bone crusher kind of useless

[robust roost]

i think if you're doing slayer properly you would never not sbs to talk to kuradal

and if you're clogging you'd only use konar

[craggy granite]

I think that putting Elite CAs at around the 87 slayer point would be a good change to make, it's only slightly inefficient, but it makes communicating CAs a lot easier when saying "Hey, after Slayer Grind you have an extra 100 CA points to finish off Elites"

The drop rate for heart is largely going to be late-game slayer @ abby demons, araxxytes, smoke devils, so idt 80-87 makes a huge impact there

but makes it a lot easier to say "Knock out whatever CAs you have left for elites at Sire/Kraken if you haven't done so yet"

I'll probably put in the effort to get it done before that point myself, but it would be a lot easier to talk about. There isn't a clear guide to get Elite CAs done at that stage either yet

it's also genuinely confusing because seeing things on the chart after Elite CAs when it's also content that we're interacting with earlier to get the CAs done

I think that something I'd be interested in is this:
Hasta + 2 Zenytes -> Titans Prayers -> rest of slayer -> (spec weapons) Voidwaker, DPick, BGS, DWH -> Doom/TOA/Zulrah/Preserve Prayer -> Elite CAs

I'm thinking to myself "how am I supposed to get elite CAs if I only do Zulrah after Eye" "There's 25 kc tasks for toa, but I'm not supposed to stay there after Lightbearer & Thread and when I have BGS/Voidwaker"

if elite CAs are set after that first slayer grind, I think there's room to improve clarity

[fossil flame]

I agree with what a lot of what ur saying Ive never felt that getting elite cas asap was much of a diffrence

[craggy granite]

Making elites feel more passive I think would be good, less of a detour

And brings us closer to Cerb for when we are actually done with Doom etc

Honestly can also do slayer to 85 and get a whip before titans

Hasta and learning Zammy there is still worth bc ancient shard issues people can run into