#Gear Progression Chart

1 messages · Page 14 of 1

tacit crow
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You get more shadows though. It's not too far off expected time to shadow than before

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More shadows is wrong way to word it. But a greater ratio of non lightbearer/fangs.

real yacht
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Yeah im chilling at 400 very reclined non sweats but I think dehydro and nhn is coming soon once I get my last row down better

fossil flame
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like matt side its not as extreme as you think but it is slower 30 extra 500s 40 extra 450s and 70 extra 400s for shadow

image.png
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they increased wieghting purp chance in 500 might be lower then previous 400 but shadow wieghting is like 1/16 for doing that instead of previous 1/124

real yacht
fossil flame
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there is they recently added wieghting boost for every 5 raid lvls rather then every 50

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though I dont think post 500 gives a boost to wieghting only purple chance afaik ur better off doing 500s now instead of 530s and whatnot

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could be wrong

umbral pasture
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hmm, so the chart isn't doing lance before rigour anymore? that's big

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did doom change things up that much or what

fossil flame
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oathplate scy and is cracked

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for chambers esp but u can get value at it in toa to

umbral pasture
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i see

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why not skip lance outright though

fossil flame
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from what ive seen ppl want to leave it for vorkath cas/as a option to get so u can still raid without a scy

hollow cobalt
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It should be removed

tacit crow
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Only vork CA you have to wait on is the GM time. Which ironically you can BGS + scythe for. Or wait for dhcb.

robust roost
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resetting for like 100+ bgs into scy camp is probably a fairly easy time to hit

frozen olive
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The real tech is maul start, ~60% acc and equivalent of almost max bgs

radiant pelican
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If you had to put pegs somewhere where'd you do it

hollow cobalt
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torva tier (i.e the last one)

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which really should be post-gm

radiant pelican
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The correct answer is post treads and peg crystal 😉

polar void
radiant pelican
polar void
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meh

radiant pelican
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yall are right

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no reason to rush em

polar void
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well that was easy

radiant pelican
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will do them passively

polar void
dusky fog
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Adding pegs is 1 extra ranged str. Is that even worth the grind?

hollow cobalt
robust roost
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actually im pretty sure it doesn’t give a max in like… any typical setup

frozen olive
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It's 3 tbow maxes in tob PauseChamp

robust roost
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i checked a few and they all came up empty

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the +1 from pegs on treads is?

frozen olive
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Yes

robust roost
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huh

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d arrows?

frozen olive
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Yes

robust roost
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interesting

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it’s settled

frozen olive
robust roost
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get rangers post tbow kekw

frozen olive
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pretty dumb lol

tacit crow
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We are like 1 ranged strength from a 32 amethyst BP max hit I think. So if we get anguish 2.0 and they only give +1 strength. Max treads will be pretty nice for that. But I bet they do +2 strength at least if they upgrade anguish

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Either way may be relevant for rune darts regardless

vague tusk
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you get 55->57 max hit with void amethyst scobo with pegged avernics, 56->58 with scobo amethyst on slayer tasks with +4 ranged str from body/legs/gloves and 58->59 with +8

radiant pelican
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I'll just try to get them passively along the way to max instead of driving myself insane going for them all at once

robust roost
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i think what we ended up coming to the conclusion of was

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it’s unconditional bis for a style, so you may as well just get them

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cause you’re probably gonna end up getting them at some point anyway

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mediums aren’t a bad thing to do early anyway, they don’t get that much faster later into the account and early on you get a decent chunk of oak planks from the eclectics

strange nexus
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Anyone got clip of gnomonkey talking about the chart

round pond
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Someone linked the timestamp of the YouTube vod above

robust roost
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@strange nexus

strange nexus
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Thanks !

desert flume
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brutal watch

desert flume
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watching gnomonkey say mages book never gives a max hit is hilarious

polar void
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Yeah that was cringe

frail sonnet
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its true if youre completely naked and dont pray anything at all while maging smh

polar void
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He just shat on it after a terrible analysis

strange nexus
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Yeah soon as he said torso isnt worth getting i clicked off

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Was hoping for atleast somewhat reasonable analysis

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Nope

robust roost
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lol if only there was a terrible analysis

there is no analysis, he just looks at ordering, puts 0 thought into why it might be there, calls it bad and moves on

karmic fossil
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due to gnomonkey's analysis I can no longer use this chart for my personal progression. I am logging out until the gnochart drops

lunar lodge
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He's really down on the fighter's torso which I don't get at all.

robust roost
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because he's a content creator

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therefore he thinks moons rush is meta

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torso is not a useful pvm thing if you have blood moon chestplate of course

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however

after you do 1 queen run for kandarin hards, which everyone will do whether you want diary cape or not, it takes about an hour with a mediocre team to finish off the torso

chilly ruin
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theyre the same offensively and torso has slightly diff defensive stats. its not actually totally irrelevant at all if you already have both

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but its also one of those marginal diffs

robust roost
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no the difference is it takes 20x longer to get blood moon chestplate than torso

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since you need to do a BA run for kandarin hards anyway, it costs 3 queen runs worth of time

lunar lodge
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Certainly even in the worst of cases, fighter's torso must save time at moon's even if you choose to do moons.

chilly ruin
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if ur wife levels ur accounts for you none of these timesaves matter

robust roost
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which is, at most like 3 hours if you get the absolute worst luck with w302 teams

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nah you'd wear tank body over torso at moons

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assuming you have one

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50/50

frozen olive
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Torso has good slash def, pretty sure you do

chilly ruin
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torso is fine, i did a few kc early for cas and it wasnt that bad

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torso rune legs

robust roost
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it's 35 slash def vs 4 str

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it probably doesn't make enough of a diff with higher stats to matter, but at lower stats i think i'd rather the def

frozen olive
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Aren't we max combat starting the gnome way

frail sonnet
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nah gnome wants bloodmoon specifically to get 99s with it

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which probably costs like 20m if u afk with it in NMZ for a month but whatever

frozen olive
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How much lms does his wife do to afford that?

frail sonnet
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forcing to wife to alch 100.000 rune arrows despair

robust roost
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the xp/hr at crab with no prayers or pots with full blood moon...probably like

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80-100k?

frail sonnet
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the xp is pretty insane at sulphur naguas which he shills 24/7 but at crab/nmz yeah its prob like 100k

robust roost
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well his argument is "you should only afk train melees"

frozen olive
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don't forget warrior guild pots!!!

robust roost
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i think crab is more xp than normal rumble since there's no overkill, but it's less afk, normal rumble you can afk the full 20 minutes

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so lets say you train strenth and attack to 99 at the funny crab

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and you have 70 smithing

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you're spending probably ~12m on repairs for 99 strength and attack lol

frail sonnet
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was gnome stance to never do CG at all or post rigour? I dont remember but it was definitely one of those 2

midnight dome
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I heard him say on stream today you have to get bofa, he just thinks it's boring to watch people do cg

robust roost
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he is an extreme atlatl shill, i know that much

nocturne ridge
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well thats true lol. these wow players are a fresh face to the osrs streams. i like it

umbral pasture
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doing moons for content is respectable

full panther
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At some point it just turns into yet another grind

umbral pasture
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trying to sell it as meta with shitty analysis not so much

full panther
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Imo cox solo is bis content

robust roost
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while true, calling it meta/efficient in front of people who are new and impressionable is not

robust roost
full panther
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Got some mixed thoughts on much of this

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He is free to make any recommendation he wants

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And its not like he is selling medication and needs to get it right, not disastrous consequences

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Just someone realizing later on they wasted some time

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The worse part is someone suffering through some grind they didnt like, and also realizing it was dogshit

dusky fog
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I wouldn’t take it personally. Sounds like he did a very poor analysis, if any at all, and went based solely on gut feel

full panther
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Im somewhere thinking the depth for what there is to discuss regarding it is shallow

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He did an incomplete analysis, so there is just not that much to say about it

dusky fog
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If only he understood the intended logic for the sequencing and then had counter arguments, only then would i even consider his opinion

full panther
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He may think its done by a single nutjob, and not a communal long standing effort

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Anyway, he ideally asks questions on why things are like they are

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So its dissapointing he doesnt but it is what it is

lunar lodge
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Do you think that it's mostly just selling his own guides and advice?

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Minimize and belittle literally everything else?

full panther
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He has some incentives to not invalidate his content sure

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But i wouldnt alledge systematically doing it

dusky fog
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Ignorance too. How can someone legitimately be against something without hearing the argument for it first?

full panther
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Guy is skilled and has things to offer very indepenently of progression guides

full panther
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Loads of shit is not all that serious

dusky fog
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Surely he understands this chart was made by a group of sweats rather than one whack job person 😂

full panther
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I didnt see his latest commentary tbh

lunar lodge
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The outright massive negativity from a skilled player is what confuses me, to be honest.

full panther
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Anyhow, itd be interesting to see what he would make

lunar lodge
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I have deviated in many ways from the various guides and whatnot that I've seen. But I still understand that the guide's way has a very valid reason, probably more valid than any reason I had, other than I just didn't want to do it.

umbral pasture
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dude is certainly not bad at the game but his understanding of meta seems weak

dusky fog
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Just blind ignorance is all. He doesn’t care to think through the logic of the sequencing and since it doesn’t align with the path he feels is best, it must not be good

umbral pasture
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which isn't weird, understanding meta is a totally different skillset from getting GM or whatever

lunar lodge
dusky fog
midnight dome
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He's not really an ironman player at his heart

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He made a hc for content, what he really enjoys is endgame pvm

full panther
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Adapting playstyle for content deffo is legitimate

desert flume
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gnomonkey is a zaxe tds do-er

umbral pasture
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especially content creators who have functionally unlimited time to play lol

desert flume
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he's directly incentivized to hold opinions that appeal to the most people possible. having reddit opinions on iron progression means more money for him. shame on gnomonkers

dusky fog
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He’s better for how to do content rather than what order to prioritize gear upgrades and progression. Is what it is

midnight dome
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He gets a new hardcore 0 time through account sharing anyways so all of this doesn't really matter

dusky fog
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His wife is cringe in the chat. Let’s just leave it there kekw

full panther
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Ye deffo leave it there lol

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Again, im not feeling so confident there is much more to discuss here

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He has incentives that dont align with ours

dusky fog
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Na. This chat continually fights for truth and logic of gear progression and will continue to do so regardless of what one content creator thinks

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You good ladlor 🙏🏼

robust roost
umbral pasture
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when the efficient guide is efficient 😠

robust roost
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"this sucks because i can't stream it to my audience"

tacit crow
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The difference is he can't pay rent when he streams sepulchre for a month instead of rushing boss content with bad gear/stats.

drowsy ore
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Bad stats and gear makes stream last longer = more profit. It makes sense

raven valley
# dusky fog Surely he understands this chart was made by a group of sweats rather than one w...

He's a twitch streamer, the twitch chat has some of the dumbest people, he probably thinks someone from chat made it + since the pvm progression has the same look and feel it looks like it comes from like a tierlist maker website.

I think if he had context for why the chart was made his opinion might be different.

Not a gm glazer but read this thread before the vid, and some opinions are overblown

frozen olive
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He's gone over bruhsailer and had the same ignorance with methodology then, brushed it all aside

round knot
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apparently bruhsailer is the worst ever, but if it told you to afk melees it would be fine

hybrid blaze
hybrid blaze
dusky fog
hybrid blaze
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I think we're ascribing entirely different approaches and motivations to what's going on. For some reason you think that this is gnome's best efforts to understand the ladlor chart. Why would you think that? I think it's clearly not, and understanding the chart wasn't the goal in the first place.

dusky fog
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No I precisely think the opposite. Little effort to understand the chart before making harsh remarks, hence ignorance.

hybrid blaze
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No, you're still misreading what I'm saying. I think interacting with the chart in a good faith effort is a bad idea from his perspective, and not doing so is very wise.

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It's not ignorance, it's a superior grasp of the situation

dusky fog
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What you’re outlining can be described as intentional ignorance imo

desert flume
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He’s incentivized to NOT understand the chart and explain its approach

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Feigning ignorance or being genuinely ignorant have the same outcome

dusky fog
hybrid blaze
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It's great for feeling superior but fails to gain insight in what's going on

indigo shadow
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Let's dispel the notion that Gnomonkey doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing.

dusky fog
hybrid blaze
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I really don't think we need to make it financial to explain what's going on, but that's a separate discussion entirely. I primarily wanted to say that stating that dismissing ladlor's chart is ignorant is misrepresenting the situation

dusky fog
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I don’t see a point in arguing about this so I’m going to step away. I thought you just affirmed that it was intentional ignorance

desert flume
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Pulled up ladlor. “Are they really doing zammy with bowfa in 2025?” - pulls up a dps sim, fumbles with random options, staring at bowfa beating it in dps with a confused face until finally landing on a cracked ranged set with scobo amethyst arrows - “yeah see scobo is much better”

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Like why take bro serious atp

hybrid blaze
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scobow is better than bowfa at zammy, it just isn't available early enough

desert flume
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Yes I’m illustrating his rancid simming habits

hybrid blaze
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I think using a dps calc is a good idea, it just doesn't stop people from misusing it

desert flume
frozen olive
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trigger warning bro I almost crashed out

desert flume
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The goal when I use a dps sim is to prove I’m right

dusky fog
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He knows exactly what he’s doing in that he doesn’t want to understand the chart for his own incentivized benefit. I just don’t want that to be misconstrued with him actually understanding that the chart is good and pretending otherwise.

indigo hollow
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I think there’s entirely too much thought going into trying to understand this tbh

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Just ignore the rage bait

full panther
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I've gotta ask, how has the 98 agility icon being turned into a hallowed crystal shard been received?

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i've skimmed some discussion, and it seems that it has been confusing for some

hybrid blaze
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I've seen a half dozen people who think that it means that sepulchre is no longer considered efficient and it's not a recommended grind. This has been very positively received.

full panther
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oh god

round pond
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I'd just revert it as noobragebait

quiet schooner
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I think the short version without the skilling blocks was always better tbh

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Then u don't have to deal with people like "why this"

mellow swift
full panther
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to their credit that is atleast partially true

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but not the whole picture at all

hybrid blaze
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I think it doesn't matter that much either way. The people who care will ask and learn, the people who recoil from hearing about the long sepulchre grind were going to find alternatives. To me the change achieved two main things:

  1. The people who made fun of 98 agility now instead spread the chart, thinking the grind has been removed
  2. The people who said that doing agility is dumb now think they were right all along and consider it a victory over the chart
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oh and it shifts the explaining to #ironman-discussion a little

full panther
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i see

hybrid blaze
# quiet schooner Then u don't have to deal with people like "why this"

This has been a sore spot for years now tbh.
When the chart was just a few pictures it really focused on pvm progression. It was small, easy to digest, but hard to parse or understand sometimes.
When the chart got bigger it became more and more like a full guide, including a faq and skilling unlocks and other milestones.

It's very difficult to strike a balance imo

full panther
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imo there is no clean victory, or it is very very hard to pull off

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gotta make some form of compromise bcs of structural limitations

hybrid blaze
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the reason BRUHsailer ends where it does is also because the game is so open after that, arguably even before some of the grinds in Ch3, that there's reduced benefit from sequencing. Most of the chart is post-BRUHsailer and tackles this more difficult question

hybrid blaze
full panther
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for what its worth, the maintenance burden is very welcome, maintaining this is the most fun i have with the game now

hybrid blaze
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I had a thought, but it'd be more complicated. Something like a progression tree, with links indicating which item is recommended for which grind. You could then decide to have it highlight which grinds you currently have the gear for, or highligh a branch of the tree and see what the progression is there, or even collapse entire branches to save monitor space. This shows the dependencies without information overload, and fits the fact that osrs progression is so horizontal

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but any time there's an update, oof, so much work

full panther
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i see

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sounds pretty technically daunting lol

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anyhow, it sounds like the 98 agi and sep shard representation of identical step, there is no clear winner and that either is fine

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with tradeoffs for each that dont impact things too structurally

hybrid blaze
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if I can be a little cynical here: people took offense with the step, not with the icon

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changing the icon now means people fill in the blanks any way they like, often to the advantage of the chart

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so it placates people by misinforming them. I'd argue that's a win, since they would balk at the real information

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but it's got little to do with the actual icon

full panther
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the sep shard step is arguably a bit dishonest, but it also addresses that the agility is sepulchre specific, not just 98 for the hell of it

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both require some trail of thought to infer the correct thing

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ok i see what you're saying here now

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yeah that was 100% part of the intention

round pond
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If there's a way, maybe show a line or something where the latest an item should be acquired

strange nexus
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I think its much better than 98 agility as 98 agility would instantly turn off a lot of the target audience

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And 98 agility would have people running rooftops because they dont want to put in the effort that sep requires especially learning

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Could maybe replace it with a ring of endurance? What's the odds you get it b4 98 agility ? ( i haven't done really any sep )

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Or the floor 5 page ?

indigo hollow
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Idk if that’s really true. Sepulchre is widely acknowledged as a good skilling method even for people who normally don’t like skilling. I’d imagine someone who’s afraid of sepulchre would just skip the step entirely over getting 98 on rooftops

chilly ruin
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making it ROE would just be going full circle wouldnt it

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isnt that what it used to be

indigo hollow
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I think people are more turned off by the idea of grinding out a non-combat skill to 98 than by sepulchre in particular

karmic fossil
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just mark it as optional and call it a day

candid haven
strange nexus
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Ive shown the chart to people and they literally would not take it seriously because of the 98 agility step and I try to explain you can skip it. Its just to give you an idea of the efficient routing to max gear. Id magin fire cape does this also even though it makes logical sense as early fire caves just sucks

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Bad first impression and people won't give it a 2nd look Sadge

hybrid blaze
solar mulch
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As a brand new player to the game I found this chart, saw the crystal, wiki'd what it comes from and just assumed it wanted me to do agility until I got bored then continue through the chart/guide thing and sprinkle it in when I have the urge to do more. Perhaps people are too literal when reading/viewing things -shrug-

broken saddle
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I just recently started using the chart on my iron, I hit a point where i wasnt sure what i wanted my goal to be, stumbled upon the chart and its been giving me clear goals and grinds to set for myself.

I was looking for goals to set myself but im also not following the chart in the exact order, more using it as a guideline. looking at the hallowed crystal shard, if that were "98 agi" id have found it more useful as im sitting at 93 agi and have a ring of endurance because i got lucky fairly early on, so i just saw the shard as "well ive got the unique from sep so ill mark that as done" when it sounds like in reality maybe i should grind out more sep to 98agi.

Then again maybe this is not useful info i just figured id try to give more data as someone thats new to using the chart over just the last couple weeks. My reasons for using the chart may be different than others or different than its intended purpose. I just find grinds easier when i have a more curated experience to tell me "this is an efficient route so do these grinds"

robust roost
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you could honestly just look at it as "if you need money, go do sep"

hushed ingot
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Mostly just people are dumb and don't know how to interpret a to-do list in a non-linear fashion, so they see 98 agility and lose their minds not realising that...

  • nobody is forcing you to do 98 agility
  • nobody is forcing you to do all of any step at once, in order
robust roost
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it gets you money, and it gets you magic xp

if you don't need any of these things right now you could just as easily do something further ahead

full panther
dusky fog
robust roost
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it does and that's why "98 agility" was ever a step to begin with

craggy granite
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farming contracts, access to good herb runs, etc also important but arent explicitly included

Sepulcher gets a weird inclusion that others don’t

robust roost
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but it's not imperative, you don't have to do it all at once, if ever

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farming contracts is implicated in the herb sack block

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i think

craggy granite
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Can put resurrect crops + basalt teles too if we really wanted to

robust roost
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but you don't know that unless you know

dusky fog
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Definitely got a lot of benefit out of Sep earlier on

normal prism
# hybrid blaze I had a thought, but it'd be more complicated. Something like a progression tree...

I have been thinking about something like this as well.
My biggest challenge using the chart is when I pick and choose what content I want to do. As someone who has little experience outside my iron, its hard to know what previous steps in the chart are relevant for which future steps, and as such its complicated to use the chart in building my own sequence.
Its ofc a very large project as you say, and my issue is subjective.

forest knot
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ngl but i dont understand this, like the chart is there as a guide for the most efficient order to get items.

If you decide to go off book and create your own path, then what advice would you be looking for exactly? All the advice is going to boil down to "follow the chart".
If you prefer not following, it's kind of impossible to tailor advice to preferences like "i prefer getting shadow before bowfa, what do i do"

fossil flame
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i think just knowing scope of items especially how impactful they are really helps judgement. like imo augury is very medicore and i would never tell someone to stress about having augury. I think some items can be skipped or routed diffrently(skipped) without much impact or effect on rest of guide

craggy granite
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technically efficiency can get broken by just doing end game content much earlier because its technically possible

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it's more like getting wdr appropriate gear before raids

full panther
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the underlying assumption underpinning all of this is assuming that the player wants all items at some point, and to get them without compromising general account progression, i.e. no costly skips that will cost time later

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and it is stripped away from preference, trying to lean as much on the above assumption as possible to not get into the mess of accounting for player skill, preference etc

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oh i think i misread what was being asked mb

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Anyhow, the chart has been updated! Dragon hunter lance is now removed rather than lingering symbolically after scythe

hollow cobalt
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I think assuming "all items" is part of the goal is kinda nonsensical

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certainly conflicts with removing lance/sra (which was the correct move)

full panther
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nonsensical in being too general? as in not literally all items in the game?

burnt knot
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why no feathers on the chart?

full panther
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anyhow, assuming you want all items on the chart, this is the recommended order for timesave, and also not compromising max. and the criterion for including items is that they are bis, and exceed some admittedly arbitrary nicheness threshold

tacit crow
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Would you ever include one big block of the ironman retirement home items at the end? (i.e, nightmare/corp?)

full panther
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someone in the osrs discord recommends the chart a lot as a "neat ironman stickerbook" which i love, so with that in mind im not opposed to it. But certainly not by default

hybrid blaze
full panther
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it'd need to be enabled

frozen olive
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You could probably have a whole section for optional side grinds

full panther
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a "panel" for customizing the chart is already something ive noted as wanting to explore

craggy granite
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that would be really cool for letting people make their own versions and to suggest options/paths without going into the github and cloning

frozen olive
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Moons after scythe Verypoggers

full panther
fossil flame
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I personally really like that the guide doesint have filler items like nm/corp etc same reason lance was removed imo

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or that sra isint on there anymore

full panther
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needs to clearly distinguish between niche and non niche

tacit crow
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Checkbox for "please include where I can efficiently do meaningless grinds" along the progression would be I guess what you want

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Instead of lumping all the meaningless grinds at the end.

lunar lodge
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I think the answer is "Wherever you want"

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Because your question is inherently an oxymoron.

tacit crow
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You still need X base amount of gear to do a specific retirement home boss.

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So I mean you would put it after you acquire that X amount of gear.

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Lets say a hardcore tobber wants ralos so they check button to show these grinds. For example it would pop ralos up after scythe. (Not debating where it should actually go here, but just an example)

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Obviously adds even more upkeep, but ladlor said he's having fun with doing that.

hollow cobalt
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I think at the point that you're grinding weird niche items because you've finished everything else you can apply your brain

tacit crow
hollow cobalt
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colo was fun

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tbh torva is at least as useless

tacit crow
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Nah I kid. I could definitely see myself going for ralos after corrupting quiver.

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Ely/full inq not so much

hollow cobalt
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I did inq when it was... much worse than it is now

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I will not be getting torva

frail sonnet
#

can put ralos and blessed quiver immediately after vbow grind if chart was based

low stag
#

I use the chart as my clog pretty to max gear lol

drowsy ore
#

I think the leaner the chart the better. Retirement home content isn't needed

quiet schooner
#

its already quite bloated

tacit crow
#

I think it would have to be a toggle if anything.

drowsy ore
#

What are we thinking about elder maul and dclaws on the chart?

#

Surely they are nice to have, but don’t seem needed for the next items

hybrid blaze
#

Almost all items are a net time loss if you only intend to use them at current meta locations, then ignore them. You need to value items for their own sake to justify them, for pretty much all items

#

It's kinda arbitrary where you draw the line, but I think dclaws and maul are probably good to have

radiant pelican
#

Based off the chart, what weapon do we use for arraxor grind?

chilly ruin
#

hasta

radiant pelican
#

And then dwh + VW spec?

chilly ruin
#

yeah, or b claws instead of voidwaker. i'm not sure which is better then

quiet schooner
#

i think bclaws are very good there

real yacht
#

Is there any world where Nex is pushe dup higher due to tbow spoon? Just wanna make sure I shouldnt be looking that way for bracers + chance at zcb

tacit crow
#

If you have plans to go for GM can honestly delay nex until after GM

#

Just going for bracers for tbow isn't too bad of an idea though.

hollow cobalt
#

wouldn't do it any earlier than like...fang vw no matter what really

real yacht
tacit crow
#

may as well go for masori too beforehand

real yacht
#

I have legs but yeah probably a good idea

solar mulch
#

Hmm I see you've not followed the guide 100% of the way how dare you! /s

  • Great job though so far!
real yacht
#

yeah fuck all that agility shit. and honestly my house isnt maxed either so I LIED

solar mulch
#

**shame, shame, shame 🔔 **

frozen olive
#

sorry bud ur banned

real yacht
#

Its close enough I dont need thr glory/wealth i cba ill get lbl naturally

hollow cobalt
#

doing it after vw+avernic seems fine, at least for vambs and maybe 1 torva piece

real yacht
#

Cool I was thinking that it wouldn't be terrible esp since my plans are toa camp

#

Is nex basically supposed to be 3/5 man teams only never really done the boss

frozen olive
#

2/3

real yacht
#

@frozen olive isnt duo kind of a pain in the ass esp without boarderline max

frozen olive
#

I did a decent amount of acb/vw/fang/masori/pipe duos pre changes and it was fine, its not exactly fun but nex isn't super fun in general imo
Post changes should be a lot more lenient

real yacht
#

hmm guess ill have to figure that out. I would not bring acb with tbow I assume?

frozen olive
#

acb is better on nex if you have max -vambs

#

if you do get vambs it just barely beats it with d arrow

robust roost
#

even if never doing gm i wouldn’t touch nex until you have pre-nex max, nothing it drops is going to come close to saving time anywhere vs what you save with bis at nex

cedar hawk
real yacht
#

Fuck you

#

I mean grtz

polar void
cedar hawk
#

❤️

cedar hawk
#

i started playing again 24 august 2025 and this is my progression so far, everything is gained since i started besides 1 venator shard

image.png image.png image.png image.png
hollow cobalt
#

you got to 92 slayer in 2 1.5 months?

cedar hawk
#

did i show exp?

hollow cobalt
#

killing araxxor requires slayer levels?

woven nova
#

Slayer rush final boss

low stag
cedar hawk
#

let me double check whatsapp when i told my friend i started playing again give me sec

thorn drift
#

I think what he means is that he did 70 hours or so of bossing in 1.5 month

low stag
#

Ahhh that makes more sense. Should’ve said “Started playing again August 24th” lol

stoic chasm
#

Convinced me that he made the account and reached that point

cedar hawk
#

mb

stoic chasm
#

maybe 45 ingame days of progress l0l

cedar hawk
#

mb mb

#

i was wondering why that dude was going on about

#

slayer etc

#

XD

south fern
#

Yeah going like 14 hours daily from scratch to reach araxxor in a month and a half is probably a stretch

low stag
#

Yeah I thought you made it past CG and to arax in 40 something days. I was gonna ask if your mental was okay lmfao

cedar hawk
#

hahaha

#

nah 14 hours is not even enough

#

14hours a day*

#

since those bosses also require gear

#

that you wont have in that short time

#

or you be doing 5-10min kills lmao

stoic chasm
#

could just always get lucky on the drops

neat sun
#

About to start my hydra grind for the gloves per the chart, why did the dhl get moved to later in the list? Is it not good for cox grind?

hybrid blaze
#

its good but people are assuming scythe for cox now

#

fwiw I think this is at least somewhat controversial, demanding an ultrarare at that stage

neat sun
#

Cox before dex and arcane to be specific, at the ferocious gloves mark

full panther
#

assuming one is willing to grind out the scythe, getting the lanc does not save time for rigour/augury

#

but if you know you wont, or have serious doubts about commiting to the long tob grind, then its likely still worth your time

neat sun
#

Nice, is that same rationale for nox hally?

full panther
#

the rationale around nox hally is that tent whip is sufficient for slash wep

#

i dont remember if the consensus of tent whip is fuzzy or not. going for a nox hally rather than an abyssal tentacle seems appropriate tbh

neat sun
#

Would it be fair to say that nox hally is more efficient to go for because it’s at a boss you’re already grinding. Like if get the fang at 400 kc, you probably only need 1-2 more pieces of the hally for a better slash weapon then grinding 1/400 drop just for the tentacle? Couldn’t this same thing apply to hydra too?

hybrid blaze
#

no because hydra drop is a single piece

#

either you get lance before feros and there's nothing to consider, or you don't get it and you have the full grind ahead of you

neat sun
#

What about for the hally then? Aren’t cave krakens dead content now? No reason to go for a 1/1200 drop when you can just get a better weapon from a boss you’re already grinding

hybrid blaze
#

I don't know

chilly ruin
#

kraken cas are easy and worth completing but i think its reasonable to block completely after

fossil flame
#

halberd has some nice uses can speed up ur vard grind and give u a boost at tob and has some extra niche uses

#

though i think most ppl would reccomend getting tent just because p2 verzik with hally is a bit awkward

midnight dome
#

I honestly think you'll run out of tents most of the time

chilly ruin
#

can just use reg whip

#

its really not that bad

midnight dome
#

I guess yea

fossil flame
#

ye but hally actually is better dps i thnk on p3 verzik and p2 even against tent whip

#

seems like itd be worth detour imo its like 330ish kills to get full halberd on avg

indigo hollow
#

Where are you getting that number?

#

You have to get 3 1/200 drops

midnight dome
#

probably 330 more than fang? idk

hollow cobalt
#

Grinding upgrades other than reg whip seems unproductive

#

Tent is like 5 hrs, not the worst

forest knot
#

helps for team finding since minreq in wdr

#

and as much as i enjoy friendslist potting more, purely relying on my friendslist is not realistic to find consistent teams

umbral pasture
fossil flame
indigo hollow
#

Uh

fossil flame
#

someone who knows math can explain or deny it

umbral pasture
#

i can explain it

indigo hollow
#

Yeah don’t trust ChatGPT blindly for math

fossil flame
#

cuz i thought itd be 1/200 and 600kills to see it

umbral pasture
#

chatGPT is stupid

#

Q.E.D.

stoic chasm
#

You can abuse LLMs into saying you're right

#

Sometimes you don't even need to abuse them yourself, the sources they're using have done it for them

fossil flame
#

idk i definitely agree with u guys i thought drawing 1 card at 1/600 is equal to drawing 3 cards with 1/200 rate but tbh i dont understand probaility like that

umbral pasture
#

in terms of the average rate it is equal

mellow swift
umbral pasture
#

hally just has less deviation

mellow swift
#

The TTk difference is close enough that if you miss a hit or so, it's no longer worth it

indigo hollow
#

My guess would be that ChatGPT misinterpreted it as a coupon collector situation

umbral pasture
#

yeah it probably thought you were rolling for all 3 pieces on each kill

hollow cobalt
umbral pasture
#

or something else idk, chatGPT doesn't actually do math

hollow cobalt
#

it would be (1+1/2+1/3)*200=367

indigo hollow
#

It’s not 330 but I don’t think they were recalling the exact number

umbral pasture
#

it's just a very elaborate text prediction algorithm

fossil flame
#

this was logic it was giving me

image.png
hollow cobalt
#

this is nonsense

#

or at least unrelated to the situation

fossil flame
#

ye think i wasnt expressing my question properly

indigo hollow
fossil flame
#

i rephrased things but ye its saying its same now

image.png
hollow cobalt
#

because it's not "pull 3 cards with 1/200 each"

#

which is 367 kc

umbral pasture
#

idk what it means by "gives more chances"

#

well again it doesn't mean anything

hollow cobalt
#

only one of the 1/200 is in play at a time

hollow cobalt
#

and that took a lot of trial and error

indigo hollow
#

I’ve had decent success using them for coding, but I find that it’s heavily dependent on what model you’re using, what language you’re writing in, and how you’re prompting it

#

And how unusual of a request you’re making

#

In all cases I have to double check its output though

full panther
#

is it expected kc for nox hally being computed?

hollow cobalt
#

we know that's 600, we're just shitting on chatgpt now

full panther
#

kk

fossil flame
#

ye

full panther
#

for amulet + nally it is not 600 also

#

just fyi

umbral pasture
#

right for both combined you're getting mildly coupon collectored

full panther
fossil flame
#

its mostly my fault though i feel i had original intuition but didint know how to express it because I dont truly understand it

#

if i prompted better i think it still could have been good

full panther
frozen olive
#

If anyone cares to do expected kc for both I'd like to know

indigo hollow
#

Like here’s what I got from Claude, which I consider to be a better model than ChatGPT

image0.jpg
full panther
# 
import random


def araxxor_uniques_no_pet():
    n_nally_pieces = 0
    n_fangs = 0
    kc = 0
    while (
        n_nally_pieces < 3 or n_fangs < 1
    ):  # keeps going until there are three or more nally pieces, and n_fangs > 0.
        kc += 1
        if random.random() < 1 / 150:
            if random.random() < 1 / 4:
                n_fangs += 1
            else:
                n_nally_pieces += 1
    return kc


N = 100000
cum_kcs = 0
for i in range(N):
    cum_kcs += araxxor_uniques_no_pet()


print(print(cum_kcs / N))
# 853.86084
hollow cobalt
#

Yeah regular coupon collector can be done analytically, but this mix is kinda jank

frozen olive
#

Ye that's why I was curious

indigo hollow
#

Interestingly Claude got that one in one shot too

image0.jpg
#

But that’s one where I would have wanted to verify it because I don’t know enough about Markov chains to judge it on its face

hollow cobalt
#

yeah that's the problem for me. If you use it for something you know about you can double check it. When you don't know much.... who knows

#

hope you don't poison yourself etc

indigo hollow
#

Yeah exactly

craggy granite
#

you can also calculate it out because you can get the odds of an event for all of the individual cases that don't satisfy the condition of P(A) happening 3x or more and P(B) happening once

hybrid blaze
quiet schooner
#

Oh I'm scrolled very far up

umbral pasture
#

Dang I don't wanna unblock kraken lol

quiet chasm
umbral pasture
#

To get tent for tob

quiet chasm
#

ahhh

#

salad blade go brtr

frozen olive
real yacht
#

Keeping kingdom running consistently for the accounts life time is correct, no?

#

Probably turn down hardwood logs once 99 can banked if it saves on money

hushed ingot
real yacht
#

I just figured gp is nothing its worth for the drip of the high prio herbs

hushed ingot
#

the herbs are not really worth the time it takes to upkeep favour i think

#

better to just herb run unless you are already maxing those out

#

and for some reason want to rush herblore faster

tiny belfry
#

Kingdom herb is 12 gp per xp so it is really expensive for low xp

craggy granite
midnight dome
round pond
#

Coal is kinda nice instead of competing with others in shopscape

quiet schooner
#

I feel like pvm supports all ur coal needs

tiny belfry
forest knot
#

havent ran kingdom in ages and idk if i cba to spend the gp on it just for eggs

midnight dome
#

no clue tbh

forest knot
#

(im a birdhouse enjoyer)

midnight dome
#

maybe check the os portal sim

frail sonnet
south fern
#

Evil chicken outfit is a mega flex

real yacht
#

If I have a block list set up at wildy slayer for the bosses is it worth turael skipping and doing them on task til 1 is left?

lunar lodge
#

I would say not.

south fern
# real yacht If I have a block list set up at wildy slayer for the bosses is it worth turael ...

Unlike other slayer masters, Krystilia's tasks have a separate counter from the normal slayer masters, thus players must complete five tasks from her to begin their Wilderness point streak. Despite using two different counters, players cannot have both a normal and Wilderness slayer task at the same time. However, if the player is given a task they do not want and cannot skip it, they can go to Turael to remove it (provided that he cannot assign it), though this will remove the Wilderness task streak and require players to complete another five tasks from her to start gaining points again.

#

Krystilla has a completely separate task count, so definitely not worth

forest knot
#

before the recent changes it was better to do wildy straight up but now idk

round pond
#

Was that intended??

#

(before the changes)

forest knot
#

it was always like that if thats what youre asking

#

you're constantly resetting your wildy task streak, but you're not resetting your regular task streak, you're just pumping out turael tasks as far as your regular streak is concerned, so yeah, seems intended

tacit crow
robust roost
#

seeing my clan constantly referring to ladlor chart is warming

wanton totem
#

Is the idea to unlock barrage with alching at sepulchre?

frozen olive
#

Yes

#

At least 82 to boost, ideally 90+

wanton totem
#

I’m 72 agil, worth looting floor 3/4 or wait until floor 5?

frozen olive
#

Portal on f3, maybe grapple if you really want to rush uniques but it's not great
F4 portal and bridge (unless you're on pace for sword skip), and all f5

wanton totem
#

👍 thanks I appreciate the help

hybrid blaze
#

And bridge was always good

craggy granite
#

I imagine that it’s worth doing those even without looting to start

hybrid blaze
#

Sorry I mean it's always good to loot

#

Im removing the conditional, not the looting

hushed ingot
#

Yeah it's gotta be worth slightly less xp/hr to hit the loot table much more often even if it's just from 82-92

#

F4 still has ranarr seed/herb/ppots

midnight dome
hybrid blaze
#

I was wrong about the timing of sword skip. It requires a bunch of rng in addition to good gameplay

quiet chasm
#

(im training rc as soon as i get eye of eyak ahrim hood was snagged from doing ca's) but this makes me laugh

image.png
midnight dome
#

If this is for toa no reason to bring all those mage switches

frail sonnet
#

with the assumption of ayak this is maybe reasonable??? gotta check what ahrim hood and seers actually do DPS wise

opal patrol
#

think if you have the space its fine to bring mage gear to speed up p2 warden

#

mystic doesnt do anything though

frail sonnet
#

ayak is better than bowfa on wardens fyi

#

probably better on akkha too

#

thats the main justification of giga mage switch

opal patrol
#

it was 0.2% better for me

frail sonnet
#

you probably didnt add ayak spec

opal patrol
#

i did

frail sonnet
#

wow

opal patrol
#

this is my gear

image.png
#

on warden at least

#

i didnt bother checking ayak

#

akkha*

indigo hollow
opal patrol
#

nvm ayak is worse than bowfa for me now that i have rigour

frail sonnet
opal patrol
frail sonnet
#

even without ancestral if u bring magus and ward its worth bringing

opal patrol
#

if i had ward its identical

#

and augury makes it slightly better

frail sonnet
opal patrol
#

ye sec

indigo hollow
#

But if you replace it with lb it loses to bowfa

#

As I said, gear dependent

opal patrol
#

yea ayak was slightly better for me but i got rigour now so it isnt

frail sonnet
opal patrol
#

because its my own gear

#

if i had magus and ward then yea

#

but idk if its worth the small dps increase

#

to use it

frail sonnet
frail sonnet
#

ward is also a max but fuckall accuracy

hollow cobalt
#

I mean on the prog you use scy+oath for duke now

#

no point doing it earlier

indigo hollow
#

I think you’re missing my point, which is that it is not universally better at wardens unless you make a bunch of assumptions (which makes it not universal)

opal patrol
#

i might start doing 500s too and then ayak gets worse

frail sonnet
#

idt u wanna do 500s with bowfa that shits cancer af

opal patrol
#

yea last row was not fun lol

hollow cobalt
#

at the end of the day taking a pile more mage switches to save 3 seconds and burn a bunch of gp seems... not very good

opal patrol
#

i think the mage swap was worth it for p2 warden but i cant remember the difference let me see if i saved it anywhere

indigo hollow
#

Tbf it’s more than 3 seconds if you’re also including time saves on akkha and p2

frail sonnet
#

also maybe kephri bugs?

indigo hollow
#

Nah I doubt that’s worth

frail sonnet
#

nah I dont mean bringing it solely for kephri bugs but it prob saves a couple ticks that u can odd on top of everything else

opal patrol
#

cant find it but i think it was 5-10s save time on p2 warden

frail sonnet
#

I think its confirmed tho that ayak without specifically magus is bad tho

indigo hollow
#

Doing a full mage swap to kill scarabs sounds like trolling in any case unless you’re melee trapping, but then just don’t do that

frail sonnet
indigo hollow
#

Is that unpotted or what

frail sonnet
#

oh shit I didnt piety

#

nvm its way better

frail sonnet
hollow cobalt
frail sonnet
#

theres a normal 3t bf method

indigo hollow
#

Yeah it should be no tick loss afaik

#

I think the only area it doesn’t clearly beat bowfa is shadows but I think it’s still competitive there

frail sonnet
#

whats the point bfing tho if u have 2 styles that are basically equal DPS meaning it doesnt matter what akkha prays

#

also means u can BP shadows which is a full DPS higher than bowfa

indigo hollow
#

They’re not basically equal dps if you have good mage gear

#

Keep in mind you can also ayak spec akkha and it stays drained

tacit crow
#

Yeah eye is a good amount better

hollow cobalt
#

not taking damage. not losing ticks when it switches on you are non-zero benefits

#

but pipe is also very good on shadows

polar void
#

holy hell

indigo hollow
#

Yep

#

Only can drain by 10 tbf

polar void
#

bowfa still king on the shadows though, right?

indigo hollow
#

Depends on gear but it’s usually better

#

I wouldn’t call it king though, since bp is better

polar void
#

only with ddarts right, or rune is enough?

indigo hollow
#

I think rune is still better

#

Also worth noting that ayak spec works on wardens p3 as well and carries over to p4

polar void
#

it carries over? thats very cool i didnt know that

indigo hollow
#

90% sure I remember someone testing to confirm that

#

I can’t find the message though so grain of salt on that

north acorn
#

what are some grinds where da4 is useful? i'm about to unlock it but kinda clueless

tacit crow
#

Zulrah, muspah, corp, anywhere you restore frequently really

robust roost
#

depends largely what methods you do for things

#

but yeah anything where you tele back between/during kills

viscid lark
#

Anywhere you pvm that is quick to tele to, da4 is likely pretty good

north acorn
#

don't you run out of tps if you do 1kill per trip at zulrah?

robust roost
#

i use it for titans, huey, zulrah, muspah

#

you do eventually yeah

#

but you can do longer trips and build up a supply of teles to do 1 kills for supply save and free spec

tacit crow
#

And you can mix/match. You may have one kill at zulrah where you are 80 HP at the end. You can just send another kill for that. And another where you are 20 hp and 5 prayer. You get a lot of value to DA4 and tele back instead of eating half your inventory of food.

midnight dome
#

I typically do 2kill trips at zulrah

hollow cobalt
#

i try to average 2ish

quiet chasm
frail sonnet
#

I got 3kc avg with bowfa+chally and 12 fish

fathom flare
#

hey I just noticed DHL was removed from the chart. Is it not worth anymore?

tacit crow
#

If your willing to grind out a scythe at the stage it is on the chart it's not worth it

fathom flare
#

Interesting, ty

tall lark
#

does anyone else not think its a bit wierd to warp the chart around a megarare like that?

#

cant be the only one

inland cosmos
#

the chart assumes the most efficient path

#

getting scythe that early might not be feasible for some players

#

however such is the case with a lot of steps in the chart

frozen olive
#

If you followed it up to that point you should absolutely be able to do tob lol

chilly ruin
#

its still post inferno post colosseum

#

the only real q is around finding teams i guess

#

but i dont think that alone warrants not including it

inland cosmos
#

its a step that requires social interaction, and that is just difficult for a lot of players

craggy granite
#

Assuming you care about getting the mega rare, you might as well get it when it'll help the other content and you can't have many other upgrades

tall lark
#

oh looks like bruh agrees

image.png
#

though i wouldnt say chart demands since its just a chart

#

but still kinda odd to be okay now get megarare

hollow cobalt
tall lark
#

didnt the chart remove dhl i thought that was the routing

polar void
#

It's not 'demanding' it's simply pointing out the optimal path, and it doesn't appear to be incorrect. One can easily do olm with even just fang and have no issue, but if you plan to get scythe I see exactly why it's there

south fern
#

The chart is get bis in slot in the minumum amount of time. Not get upgrades in order. Say dragon hunter wand is 10% mage, compared to the 5% one on the chart, but completely skipped

tall lark
#

yea but completely removing dhl because u can "just get the scythe" seems a bit unhelpful

hollow cobalt
#

the whole point was to include things which are efficient to get. if it's not "worth", keeping it on there is nonsense

south fern
#

You are free to not follow the chart as most people don't anyway

polar void
#

You'll have a halfway shot at getting claw by going for fero gloves anyway

indigo hollow
#

I think it’s as simple as if you ever want to do tob on your account and go for a scythe, get it early, and if you’re a tob avoider, just go for a dhl and ignore the chart

tall lark
#

i think u guys are misunderstanding, its not an anti social issue. i think theres a big difference between doing tob and getting a scythe but anyway just my 2 cents

#

seems the chart is set

south fern
#

Long discussion and calculations have been done before and that is optimal

polar void
#

I don't understand your view because megarares have been on the chart for a long time in different sequences

#

Doesn't seem any different now

tall lark
#

a megarare placed relatively early and in doing so removing an hitherto important weapon

woven nova
#

98 agility discussion v2

hollow cobalt
#

it's not relatively early

#

it's literally in exactly the same place as the other 2 megas lol

tall lark
#

cool just my 2 cents

#

seems u all agree already

polar void
#

I understand it's weird when a more key item is removed but the logic is there

#

If it's any consolation, I bet lance will continue to have more uses in the future, we are in a dragon based medieval game tbf

south fern
#

Optimal chart vs your own progression are different things. Especially if you don't want to lock in to tob and want to send some cox, go ahead and get it

polar void
#

I'm sure it'll find more niches eventually, but scythe + oath really is cracked

south fern
#

Demon based medieval game recently

polar void
#

I'm okay with this

frozen olive
#

Spider demon dragon game

forest knot
#

soon enough vampyre too

full panther
polar void
#

I don't categorize this as 'warping the chart' all that's left at that stage is raids/nex

Screenshot_20251011-112216.png
#

Nex items are super powerful but no one seems bothered that the chart suggests to nearly greenlog raids before starting it lol

hollow cobalt
#

Nex items are super powerful
Zcb is pretty good, the rest is very meh

polar void
#

Torv full helm, vambs but just saying

hollow cobalt
#

They're ok

south fern
#

Literally the last step too

polar void
#

Raids 4 gear when

south fern
#

The droprates from nex are just shit

tacit crow
#

And lance isn't important if you use scythe for cox instead.

tall lark
#

i said u guys agree with eachother

#

you must have misread

tacit crow
#

The way you typed it made it seem like you said we agree with your 2 cents not each other

tall lark
#

the whole conversation was people disagreeing with me so idk how you can interpret that as agreeing with me 😅

tacit crow
#

I haven't checked tread max hits for blowpipe, but I don't even think quiver makes a difference for blowpipe in tob unless you are using dragon darts. So could technically put scythe before quiver too.

#

But it's so quick to get idk if I could justify doing an entire scythe grind with an Ava's lol.

hollow cobalt
#

Same goes for ultor really

tacit crow
#

True but at least ultor/scythe have a back and forth argument where they both benefit each other.

#

Although I doubt the 1 max hit speeds up tob much. Might be comparable to the amount of time scythe speeds up ultor.

quiet schooner
#

Shadow has always been in that same spot and now scythe is just 1 step before it

#

Idgi how it's early at all

light prawn
#

what benefits does sepulchre give? trying to compare versus wildy agility

#

since wildy agility will give about 150m

stoic chasm
#

10000 (ten thousand) prayer potions

light prawn
#

and smithing xp

#

if i do wildy agility, I can get 99 con much earlier

stoic chasm
#

Ten. Thousand. Prayer potions.

frozen olive
#

You can plug in a sepulchre calc on osrs portal

#

It's ~3.5k ppots

chilly ruin
frozen olive
#

The multiskill opportunities also have value that you don't get in wildy

craggy granite
#

prayer pots and a lot of runes without having to do zmi yet imo are some of the main things

#

it's also just faster exp

tacit crow
#

Isn't it like double the time to do wildy?

light prawn
#

70k/hr at wildy

#

and with the agility ccs, its free

tacit crow
#

Sepulchre gets you at 1.5x more xp/hr and much needed magic xp at the stage you will be at

#

And other multiskillikg options

light prawn
#

which assumes that people are going to multiskill doing sepulchre

#

and or want too

tacit crow
#

You are asking for the reasons.

#

It's not efficient to do wildy but you can do it if you want to

frozen olive
#

I mean they clearly think rushing 99 con is good too, it's fine

tacit crow
#

You may be able to do sepulchre and spend the go on mahogany homes and still come out ahead vs. Wildy agility

#

Idk if you have enough gp from sep to do cape racks

frozen olive
#

Or just wait at 83 until gp is banked from other pvm

tacit crow
#

Yeah that's the much better option of course

#

Just trying to show how much worse wildy agility is

full panther
#

I'm once again rewriting the codebase to make implementing new features easier, one of these is the ability to hide steps (and bring them back with a show all button).

This begs the question about if the barebones variant needs to still exist, and i defer to you guys a bit, since ~16% of traffic goes to that variant. Anyone here who prefers to use the barebones , that would rather it keeps existing even if this hide feature is implemented? Do let me know.

image.png
north acorn
#

tbh i'd have nuked it a long time ago to avoid confusion

chilly cove
#

bring back light mode 🙏

quiet schooner
#

I think the barebones version is better than the regular

midnight dome
woven nova
#

it’s like 801 xp per lap assuming u turn in 101 tickets at once, u have to do like 15k to get from 70-99

IMG_5147.png
#

that being said you have to spend 150k per entry and not all loot is past lap 61 since you won’t stay there in one session, and doesn’t account for nature rune prices

#

subtract 10k nature runes price from this at a minimum unless u alr have them

#

also you get like 65k an hour (unrealistic prob closer to 60k) at wildy agility where u get like 95k at floor 5 of sep

hybrid blaze
#

If you do a slow but profitable method to a high xp goal, the loot will always be very impressive. it's good to keep in mind how many hours it'd take

woven nova
#

for sure, you’re also missing out on a lot of bonus xp from multiskilling

#

for most players they don’t like agility so spending 2x as long training it won’t be great anyways, and its less macro efficient

#

unless you’re completing like 300+ lap streaks i can’t see it being ok

#

any banking kills ur loot/xp so quick

#

(or deaths)

midnight dome
#

Yeah I guess it does add up but spending an extra 100 hours or whatever sounds awful

#

I didn't think it was that much but makes sense

south fern
#

Doing a few hours early instead of staves imo is great, in a few hours you'll also get enough blighted supplies for all wildy needs. Doing more though yeah you're wasting time.

#

tops like 5 hours if even

woven nova
#

For example if ur doing 200 laps and then banking you make 3.5m every 200 laps

subtract 150k for entry cost then you’re at 3.35m

subtract 40k for nature rune prices and then you’re 3.31m

takes 2.5 hours to do 200 laps so you’re only making 1.3m an hour at 64k agility xp an hour

#

200 laps every time without dying or having to bank or whatever cuz ur running masses with randoms is just so optimistic and its not even good effective gp/hr it seems

midnight dome
#

Everytime I've seen people talk about these mass cc's it seem like they might be running for a couple hours here and there and that's it. Not sure if they are constantly going nowadays. And as soon as there are enough people risking loot there'll be pkers to cull the numbers

#

Maybe it changed though

frozen olive
#

they definitely aren't constant, usually its a weekend thing

woven nova
#

they would prob run for a full 200 laps of time if ur there at the start

#

def not a 24/7 thing

#

U should see the agility fc discord tho its just crybabies 24/7

#

Last time i checked atleast

midnight dome
#

What are they crying about

woven nova
#

Ppl who protect end up ragging and shit idk

midnight dome
#

L0l

woven nova
#

Made up drama cuz they run out of things to do on rs

midnight dome
#

I mean why would someone be there protecting if they could make more money ragging

woven nova
#

The people who are in the wilderness 24/7 are good samaritans

hybrid blaze
hybrid blaze
#

Fwiw I think there are plenty of arguments against doing a lot of wildy agility even without considering pkers or raggers. In the presence of those it only gets worse, obviously

south fern
#

Not consistent no. But agility fc on weekends usually runs for like proper periods of time say like 10+ hours. And real pk'ers are a very rare sight, sure there's always risk though

loud jasper
south fern
#

Crafting+mage xp

#

I agree on it being a better substitute for blackjacking, I knew from the start I was going to skip that, while I did some bstaves

loud jasper
#

Can't you do wildly agility and with all the time saved blow some glass?

#

And get better rates for both

south fern
#

Technically yeah, but glass is kind of locked behind 77 mage and 78 farming

#

Sure you can do charter ships, but then you are cutting in deeply into the xp

#

Also shopscape is pain

loud jasper
#

Making the molten glass yourself does make XP rates worse but you are able to farm giant seaweed before 78 farming. I don't really know how much experience you get from making battlestaves, it would have to be not much worse XP/hour to make it better than blowing glass +wildy agility

south fern
#

The actual making of bstaves is great xp definitely above glass, the 2 minutes of afk charging orbs is not great mage xp, but is afk

hybrid blaze
loud jasper
#

Gold and crafting XP is what I meant

hybrid blaze
#

Yes, as do I

#

if you combine all the xp and gp, doing bstaves is faster than wildy agil to the same goals

south fern
#

Wildy agility is not a bad method, especially if you don't intend on doing low level sepulchre. It's just not something you want to camp for long

hybrid blaze
#

I dont think there's much interaction between wildy agility and sepulchre in particular

#

I agree with the rest of your statement though

south fern
#

Oh right barblore covers early agility

hybrid blaze
#

yeah this is a large contributing factor why wildy agility isn't great. At level 52 (or w/e) the xp rate looks good, but since you can 'skip' early agility through barb fishing it's more honest to compare it with f3 or better at sep

craggy granite
#

I am doing what I can to skip f3 as much as I can 🤣

hollow cobalt
#

Still looks ok compared to floor 3 right?

hybrid blaze
#

its reasonable but afaik not efficient

#

this was said like four times upthread already. Wildy agility isn't the worst, but also not the best. If you only do it for a few hours it's w/e either way, just think twice before making it a really long grind

forest knot
#

too late, ive already grinded out 94 agility at wildy

loud jasper
#

Is making earth battllestaves just your highest crafting XP/hour method until superglassmake? Or is it slightly worse than some other method plus you get gp

south fern
#

If you get orbs 0 time it's better

loud jasper
#

How much worse is it than making glass in a furnace using giant seaweed?

#

Making the orbs

woven nova
#

U should get 61 crafting with battlestaves then unlock superglassmake yeah

#

(61 craft and 77 mage)

#

Quite worse making ur own orbs

south fern
#

Making orbs is a lot of steps and magic xp which is very useful. Crafting xp is shit if you look at all the steps, but early mage xp is something you really want

#

Macroefficient, not better in a vacuum in other words

hybrid blaze
hybrid blaze
#

you can multiskill a lot of the crafting and alching steps so the comparison relies on quite a lot of assumptions

fossil flame
frozen olive
#

its good early, the discussion was about doing it to 99

#

and it's not particularly easy to track rates since there's variance in interruptions

#

and how long you run for

hybrid blaze
#

to the contrary, the main reason it's beloved is because people don't track the rates

north acorn
#

as someone who has not done any cox nor tob and is approaching 95 slayer, would you guys recommend me going for scythe before dhl regardless?

#

I’ve also got lucky with a heart drop last week so not sure if that shuffles around the shadow

frozen olive
#

You still want gloves, re-evaluate after that

dusky fog
frozen olive
#

I still think DHL is fine, it's not gonna be better than just going and getting scythe, but it's an easy boss

hollow cobalt
#

Don't think it changes anything

dusky fog
frozen olive
#

Can just do post scythe

#

Prayer isn't a concern in tob

dusky fog
#

I’m still undecided on skipping Lance or not

#

Don’t ferocious gloves come from hydra?

frozen olive
#

Yes

dusky fog
#

So you’re kinda there either way up to some point

frozen olive
#

Eventually yes, that's why I say reevaluate after you get gloves if you wanna stay

dusky fog
frozen olive
#

Some ppl find Hydra miserably boring

dusky fog
#

I’ve never killed it

#

Is it compare to any other bosses?

frozen olive
dusky fog
#

I don’t want to go out of my way to max early but also not trying to wait till after all 3 megas for example

frozen olive
#

I'm blanking on what I'd compare it to lol, you lure it to specific tiles and dodge mechanics

hollow cobalt
frozen olive
#

Yup lol

dusky fog
#

I guess i just don’t want to postpone maxing till like well after most pvm grinds are done. Looking for a happy medium

frozen olive
#

Can do a task and see

#

You aren't like hard griefing if you do it

dusky fog
#

Referring to maxing

desert flume
#

hydra is spindel with extra steps

#

boring boss

dusky fog
#

But yeah I’ll definitely try hydra out once I hit 95

dusky fog
#

The constant pkers keep you semi alert 😂

frozen olive
heavy iris
#

what is wrath rune in the chart?

frozen olive
#

wrath runes

#

for offering spells for slayer

heavy iris
#

I zee

#

ty

#

and spellbook swap is what?

#

96 magic?

loud jasper
umbral pasture
# heavy iris I zee

requires 90 rc btw, you can make 3.5k wraths off a single +5 stew boost with scar essence

timber kiln
#

the site appears to be down if you weren't aware

full panther
#

can you check again?

timber kiln
full panther
#

is fine on my end atm

#

even when refreshing atm?

timber kiln
#

yep

full panther
#

wtf

#

its up on my end. im experimenting with some features

hollow cobalt
#

Fine for me

#

although all my items are wiped

timber kiln
full panther
#

hopefully new features makes up for it c:

full panther
timber kiln
#

isnt this some cryptic github cdn coherence thingy

hollow cobalt
#

sotd in retirement home but not torva seems just wrong

timber kiln
#

yeah vpning to my seedbox in the uk makes it work

#

americans L i guess

full panther
#

huh

#

did my update make this inaccessible in america???

hollow cobalt
#

works from canada

#

hmm why does hide levels not hide sep

full panther
#

because during the "grabbing from wiki" part of the pipelines, it tags it as an item

#

even if the step represents skilling

north acorn
woven nova
#

It is fine for me

north acorn
#

should've added a redirect, otherwise works fine for me

full panther
#

hmmm

full panther
#

while addressing the above (since it could affect significant amount of users), i am temporarily reverting a bit

#

so if the chart memory behaves a bit weird now in the meantime, thats why

hollow cobalt
#

Can "Show hidden items" be a toggle as opposed to just unhiding them permanently?

full panther
#

below the chart there should appear a "show hidden items" button

hollow cobalt
#

yes

#

it unhides them permanently

full panther
#

oh mb i misread

#

ill add it to the backlog yea

desert flume
#

does the % help a lot with freezing or something

hollow cobalt
#

yes

desert flume
#

do you still need augury w sotd

hollow cobalt
#

also literally any time you ever cast the barrage spell really

#

the % is for more damage

#

it does not increase accuracy

desert flume
#

so sotd doesn’t change mage bonus threshold for freezing cabs

#

just dmg

hollow cobalt
#

yes

#

but doing more damage is very good

desert flume
#

cool beans ☝️

tacit crow
#

I mean toxic staff of the dead does have +5 more accuracy than Sceptre.

#

But getting 100% is pretty easy now with treads. Id imagine it's not tough to get there even with base sotd being less accurate than Sceptre.

hollow cobalt
#

true but it's competing with purging staff, not sceptre

tacit crow
#

Fair point. Purging has insane accuracy too.

full panther
#

Ladlorchart.com has been updated!

  • Steps can be hidden by right click.
  • Added an optional retirement home category, intended for items not included in standard progression, but still desirable for some, primarily servicing the "stickerbook" aspect of the chart. Let me know what more items you want to see here.
  • Bare bones is now a toggle. Access the config menu to enable/disable barebones, as well as the retirement home category.
  • Implemented options for hiding level, construction, and slayer reward unlock based milestones.
  • The skip feature is removed, as it is considered redundant with the hiding feature.

Unfortunately the near total rewrite of the source code has made the chart memory not fully persist. I've mitigated some of it, but not all, so expect some losses.

Old urls should hopefully resolve correctly still, let me know if anything still breaks.

bold latch
#

The website seems to be infinitely reloading for me, not sure if anybody else is having the same issue?

full panther
#

oh yes wtf

#

something broke

#

Should be stable now, apologies for the inconvenience

#

Let me know if anything else breaks

round pond
#

shouldnt dhl be in retirement?

desert flume
#

good update 🤲

full panther
round pond
#

nothing will stop my dhl campaign

full panther
#

Give me some time and ill cook up a special rule for dhl

karmic fossil
#

how would I re-enable an item I’ve hidden?

#

Apart from clearing local storage

full panther
#

this "show hidden items" button at the bottom

image.png
#

Known issue: direct links to /privacy, /faq and /changelog currently fail to load due to GitHub Pages routing. Functionality inside the site is unaffected. A fix is planned for deployment by end of tomorrow.

chilly cove
#

should add pegasian boots to the retirement home

#

and items for GM CA's would be good too

tiny tundra
#

it might be out of the scope of the chart but clue items like bryo staff/bandos boots i think could be included on retirement home

hollow cobalt
#

At that point we might as well include the full clog

vague tusk
#

trajectory to full clog feels like a lot less arbitrary of a goal than trajectory to "mostly BIS but not the BIS from nex/pnm/medium clues" tbh

loud jasper
#

all the significant bis is on the chart and all the irrelevant bis is at the bottom, thats not that arbitrary

quiet schooner
#

Do pegs add a max anywhere

frozen olive
#

yes

hollow cobalt
#

pegs are at least as relevant as torva is in the current game

frozen olive
#

its +3 max tbow at tob

#

unless you run venator ring ig

loud jasper
#

I guess maybe arcane spirit shield is sort of significant, its more like the stuff on top lets you get all the stuff there as fast as possible

full panther
#

arcane spirit shield is gonna get replaced by the elidinis' ward (f) soonish

chilly cove
#

oh could you make it so the wrench settings persist after refreshing? currently i have to keep enabling the retirement home setting every time i open the page.

#

sorry if feature has been requested already

full panther
#

oh thats bizzare, thats how i intended it. I will look at it tomorrow

#

its been a long day

chilly cove
#

all good man, thank you so much for making the site, it's super helpful

tiny tundra
#

especially when stuff like treasonous/tyrannical ring are in there

hollow cobalt
#

yes it should be there

loud jasper
#

there should be a new section for clue items then maybe because the charts main focus is pvm

forest knot
#

essentially an add on to bruhsailer that adds in reroutings to optimize for completing clog rather than the bruhsailer's goal

rustic granite
#

#1415540907641405471 message

#

yeah I haven't updated it since this initial post

forest knot
#

ty gray

rustic granite
#

a lot of the timing on things is relative to everything else that you do

#

you want medium clue rewards earlier in this guide than a PVMer would because you want some of the rewards for solving passive hards/elites/masters

#

there's no reason to be doing mediums before Cerb normally, arguably not even before Doom

hollow cobalt
#

You get a Nonzero passive amount

#

Been doing those from bwans/amethyst/dags/etc

rustic granite
#

yeah doing passive mediums is basically always worth it

robust roost
#

would you justifably do blue moon instead of blood bark based on it being a clue req

forest knot
#

no, even assuming you value the clue step you just go get it later when you have significantly better gear

robust roost
#

does it actually take that much longer to get than bloodbark?

#

plus the time you’d already spend at moons doing the CAs

chilly ruin
#

yeah it does. bloodbark you can get in an afternoon, a full moons set is longer, but i assume it makes sense not to 1 boss target farm then so effectively going for close to greenlog

fossil flame
#

I feel like if you are caring about clues then you are caring about clogs. if thats the case you can justify like anything like getting lance

robust roost
#

i guess the better wording then would’ve been “if you want blue moon for the master step, should you get it instead of bloodbark”

chilly ruin
#

no calcs to hand but that that point in ladlor chart your best weapons are still like, dscim arkan blade, so i think if you want to slot it in you should probably delay til post hasta, at which point you are doing at least some barraging still in mystics

vague tusk
#

tbf I feel like if you're a clog chaser you'd grab bloodbark(+zealot's) at around the time you do in bruhsailer anyway - blue moon would be an "in addition", not an "instead"

rustic granite
frozen olive
#

Lance is good at Huey PauseChamp

rustic granite
#

In my guide you go for it after almost everything

rustic granite
frozen olive
#

For first phase tho

rustic granite
#

And head if you're scytheless yeah

frozen olive
#

Yeah we get scythe tho in this thread

#

I wouldn't know tho

robust roost
#

to replace bloodbark

#

slightly better raid armor + +1 melee legs + eventual master clue req

rustic granite
#

if you care about masters but don't care about other clogs yeah I guess

#

if you care about clogs in general I'd just do all three

light prawn
#

its also incredibly brain off with the ccs

woven nova
#

200-250 is still kinda bad tho

#

~ 1.3m an hour at 64k agility xp an hour

stoic chasm
#

Noted, I will double my hours at the course

woven nova
#

u could halve your agility hours to 99 by running the better course!

stoic chasm
#

I will do it again!

loud jasper
#

yes only do it to 82 max

light prawn
#

Yeah doing it pre 82 is really good

#

can get nearly 20m cash stack early

#

doing it to 92 is nearly 70m

robust roost
#

i wonder how HCIM friendly the chart is

rustic granite
#

I'd go for Assembler before wasting time at CG

#

Vorkath is very dc unfriendly

#

Galvek is a common wipe point anyways

spare holly
#

In the chart i dont see anything about (toxic) tridant. A buddy of mine said i'd really have to go for this for toa/cox. Is this false info?

frozen olive
#

its been supremely outclassed by eye

spare holly
#

I see, thanks 🙂

rustic granite
#

And with the slayer changes there's much less of a benefit to early TOA

full panther
#

same applies to bare-bones mode, and the hiding skill/slayer/construction milestones too

#

the choice to hide them is rememberred now as originally intended

umbral pasture
#

it's for monkey room and wardens p2 only

#

even before eye it didn't make sense to delay toa for so many slayer levels

full panther
dusky fog
#

What is the rhyme and reason for what makes the “retired” list? @full panther

full panther
frail sonnet
#

@full panther thoughts on putting zcb before megarare grinds

full panther
#

I may have opened Pandora's box with this feature, but if you hide Scythe of vitur from the chart, Dragon hunter lance now appears POGGER

image.png
chilly ruin
#

will there be a list of dependencies like that

full panther
hollow cobalt
#

If you hide bowfa does atlatl appear?